Episode 410: Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988)
And then you told me that her granddaughter, John are you listening to me? Of course, I am. Although are you on your phone ignoring your poor mother who only loves you and wants to spend time with you. I was doing some banking on the Wells Fargo mobile app. And I got carried away pay your bills done. Check your balances done deposit checks done even send and receive money. Are you updating your status right now with the Wells Fargo mobile app? It's easy to get banking done. Learn more at wellsfargo dot com slash get banking done. Wells Fargo Bank NA member FDIC. If you enjoy this show in what more people to know about it head on over to I tunes. Leave a comment in rated five stars make sure you like insurance on Facebook. And don't forget to follow us on Twitter. Just search for Christopher media. Thank you in advance for supporting Christopher media by clicking on the PayPal button. And by clicking through to all the sponsors who support Christopher media dot net. Most importantly, we would like to take the time to extend an extra special. Thanks to you. Christopher media could not exist without your support. Thank you for visiting Christopher media dot net. And thank you for listening. Christopher media. Let's make some noise. Mommy's going to the beauty parlor down. Of course. I'm leaving you with your favorite friend Raja. He's going to take Betty, Betty good Gan of you. Because if he doesn't he's going back to the science lab. What the hell was wrong. What that nothing could maybe Herman. You a great you perfect. You better than perfect. This raja. Steve's blown his mind. What's tweeting? Roger rica. Says. Clunk ragged sees stars. Stars up playback, please chilling the Kelly cryan graduate. I how many times do we have to do this damn seen BMI trailer nap skews? Skews? What was recovering your head twenty three times ready? Above me worried about you and worried about the refrigerator. This is the table often coming you start to up and a down and out private detective. Any values who got every moment they were to get. Control. Motion to grill. Compassion. I'm sorry. I yanked Reeves. Rabbit tact them less than you thought. Six anything from our house when Mr. valiant? Get some every time you wouldn't have any idea where the rabbit might be for rabbits, doll stinks, like yesterday's comedy different. Boom. Was drone that. Tell me set a revenue poverty, you just happy to see me, touchstone, pictures and Steven Spielberg presents Robertson meccas field. They acted attic. We do bid framed. Welcome to the projection booth. I'm your host, Mike white. Join me once again is Mr. Krista shoe shave and haircut two bits also back in the booth. Mr. axel Cohen, I I've actually met the feebles this week. We are looking at the nineteen eighty eight animated live action hybrid who framed Roger rabbit, directed by Robert Zemeckis, the film is based very loosely and a book by Gary k wolf it tells the tale of Eddie valiant a hardboiled detective who gets hired by the head of a movie studio are key maroon to take some photos of the titular Roger rabbit's wife playing penny cake with the head of a place called toon town. It's the story of intrigue murder animation. Now, this movie is a mystery. So I wanna warn folks that there will be spoilers galore in this thirty one year old film, Chris when was the first time you saw who framed Roger rabbit, and what did you think? When my family moved from San Francisco, Texas, we lived in a small town called Richardson, not so small anymore, but I would have been like four or five. I remember seeing it on like a VHS. We watched a VHS alike a baby sitters house and anyone my age, I'm twenty nine. And so I, you know, the movie came out before I was even born. So when I saw it I think a lot of people my age come to the same conclusion that you know, judge doom scares this shit out of everybody. If you're a kid, I mean, he is he is a is a perfect villain for this film. And Christopher Lloyd is perfectly cast as him. And I remember being mortified scared out of my mind by Christopher Lloyd, judge doom but loving everything else about it. So I loved it. The first time I saw it. And I love it. Now. I mean, it's a great foam. It's an interesting film. It's it has a lot of parts in it that haven't aged. Well, but that's a technology thing. But. I loved it twenty five years ago when I saw it, and I love it now, as you know, as as an adult, so I think it's I think it's an interesting movie, and I still have a very much affinity for it than stalls. You has worn off a little bit. But I still like it a lot. How about you? Excellent. I saw in the theater, and I remember one of the major fast food chains might have been McDonald's had a tie in three to soda pop cop. So I was excited that this is going to be a big event that's going to be a movie, it's a cartoon cartoons for fun. And I went to see it. And I came out of it really liking it. But also feeling a little bit uncomfortable because of the Matic frightening elements, and I remember the look on my mom's face of not being sure if she had made the right decision, and I kinda liked that it was just right on that edge. Yeah. It's one of those films that like the watching it now really kind of analyzing it it is a lot. Dr. Ker than I even remember it being especially like up front later in the film, it kind of the tone really takes a turn. But at the beginning, it's very Nawar, and and dark and serious in an adult film. And this is one of the probably many points. I'll say I really missed the moments where Roberts amac is just brought it and made a great movie because I feel like he's someone who's capable of producing something amazing and then turning around and just sort of handing in his like fi medic essay at the end the class. Yeah. I agree. I think the question that I know is on my mind, and it's on your mind, axel is a Mike. When did you see it? And what do you think of who framed Roger rabbit while I'm also an old man like excellence, apparently because I also saw this at the theater might be a little older. I think I saw this when I was six. Eighteen so I think I was too old for this movie, the technological advances of this film were just shoved down my throat like everywhere. I turned. It was like, oh my God animation with live actors. This is crazy. And then as life went on. I was just like they've been doing that forever. They've been doing that since like animation and moving pictures were around so kind of chafed under that whole idea. I don't really like this movie. And it's at question that we were kind of skirting around as far as who is this movie made for it's like, there's some adult stuff to it. And then there's a lot of kids stuff to it. And it doesn't seem to really the tone is to even for me. This is during the period of time where Robertson mecca still could hit some home runs. But I think by this time he is starting to kind of run out of steam. I would agree one hundred per se. Sent and you and I have had this conversation. Mike off podcast about Robert Zemeckis in the quote unquote, decline of Damascus. I mean, this is between back to the future and back to the future part two and three and past that, you know, death becomes her. I know that that move has is very popular. But then you have something like Forrest Gump or contact castaway and those movies feel so if he'll so wrote and one note and so- formulaic and by the books, and you have something like polar express, which is just like Jamaica's was trying to James Cameron by doing the whole look at the cool technology thing, and you know, when it kinda works for James Cameron. But it definitely does it work for as Macas. Do you like back to the future too? I haven't seen it recently. I mean, I liked the first one, but no shit who doesn't I remember liking the second one. But I feel like if I watched it like say we took a pause right now. I went watched it came back. My answer would probably be. It's just okay right now. I'm saying sure, I probably remember it a lot more fondly than it is and Becca future part three. At least try something different. That's what I remember about the third one. Why is not good? I remember hating back to the future to when it came out. So I haven't really seen it since it was at the movie theater. And I do remember liking three a lot more than two which is weird because I think they shot them back to back which did also kinda strange since there's such a tonal shift between two three. But to just I don't know. I love Crispin Glover. So not having him having the fake him having the fake girlfriend, Elizabeth shoe, and they're just like, okay? If you can't get the original people back would he do I u s who doesn't like the first back to the future. And I'll just you know, I'll put my hand up there and say I have no to me the back to the future movies or sort of. Like a pile of unseasoned, mashed potatoes at the end of a decent buffet where I get they're not hurting anybody. But I don't understand why anyone would select them over other options, you know, and again get I haven't even not that. I'm defending me saying like back to the future. But I haven't seen it in so long that that might be the the way I view it when I come back to it. I think the last time I watched back to the future hall was before I met my wife, so like eight years ago now before I started the podcast thing, which has changed the way I watch movies. So then like, you said, actually, I was probably enjoying movies in a very kind of hands off approach. And now, I think if I went back and watched it and might might have the same conclusion because you know, it's just one of those movies that I think I probably have a higher opinion of it in my mind than maybe in reality. I still love Beck's the future the first one, and that might be in the style chop coloring me. Because that was a few years younger when movies were so formative for me. So yeah, but then going back and watching things like used cars, and I wanna hold your hand. I mean, those movies really hold up for me, especially used cars, sometimes even back then with him and gale working together. Something like nineteen forty one was just such a sour note. But I mean, this is not the I wanna hate on Robertson meccas podcast. Now, if we wanted to do that, we could talk about beowulf or a Christmas Carol or flight or polar express, or what lies beneath film that some people. I didn't even realize directed by Rogers. Amac is Robert Jesus Christ Robert Zemeckis, I would stand up for what lies beneath as solid if again, kind of mashed potato, but it kind of leads into how I would've you the entire who framed Roger rabbit approach, which is this is a horror movie, and I think Robertson meccas is at his best. When he's doing scary stuff. That man's involvement in the whole tales from the crypt. Franchise was amazing. Once you get them with the Tom Hanks and a ridiculous series of quotable lines. He's boring, but you give him something meaty, and he's going to give you some blood as someone who hosted tales from the crypt podcast. You may want to go back much of that show because you're probably remembering it a little bit more nostalgically than you think you are. I reward it in the last ten years, and I'm not because I was that makes sense. I was remember tuna style gigli. Yeah. But I felt like Zametica's wherever heated one there still always a little something about it that fell like sure right personally. That's the thing about who framed Roger rabbit that is is a success is that I'm not sure a lot of other directors could bring kind of what Domecq is brought to it as a fan of hard boiled detective stories, I was looking at this more not necessarily from horn Gullit for more from a hard boiled. Story and that this is set in nineteen forty seven. So we're just like a year after the war, which oddly doesn't play into the movie that much as far like the setting or anything. We don't hear about the war very much. It's almost as if it didn't take place, but we'll talk about the war little bit later when we talk about the sequel aim we are put into this world. We're like I said it is Los Angeles nineteen forty seven the central conceit to this movie. Is that cartoons live? Amongst us though. Kind of speaking about World War Two they are kept apparently in in a ghetto called Toontown, and I don't know necessarily the rules as far as when you could leave Toontown, and why some are put into Toontown though. I imagine some of the tunes are actually kind of dangerous if they were to be on the outside world for the most part they are mostly harmless to human race. We had this whole idea of Eddie valiant as someone who hates toons. Getting hired by the head of the studio to take these photographs and try to kind of get Roger rabbit to realize that his wife is running around on him. And then get Roger his head back in the game. Because Roger is the star of or the coast are of a series of cartoons that he makes with this other character baby Herman is baby. One of the best reveals this entire movie is the fact that baby Herman is like a grown adult man in a baby cartoon child's like body, which is also to your point. It's horrific. The idea of this fifty year old man with a three month old dinky or whatever his is. Just like oh my God. That would be terrible doing dalit. And he smacks him on the ass. Let's smoke. It is stogie. Holy hell that's horrifying and these going into that woman. Skirts the first time it's just like, oh, jeez. It's upsetting. He's. Got his little baby Weiner, and he's surrounded by lots of things that are attractive to him. And this is sort of like a dry humping Sisyphus. If you will we get the rug pulled out from under us a little bit. Because the movie starts as a cartoon. And then we get the moment where we hear the director offscreen yell cut. The director played surprisingly enough by Joel silver. I never really realized that until I Bree watched it again recently. And I was surprised I didn't think that Joel silver could carry it off. But he does a good job. I kind of wish that he'd come back in the movie. I'm there, Mike. I'm with you. Okay. I mean, he's just not he's not in enough that way. Right. It's interesting. I was honest to God surprise, it wasn't just Robertson meccas. Right. Like, I felt like if you're going to be in your own movie, which you know, is a precedent for that. It would have been a little fourth wall pointing like oh looks meccas in the cartoon like directing it. I'm surprised that didn't throw a bone to. One of the old cartoon directors. I don't know if Tex Avery was alive or dead at this point. I know Chuck Jones was and he absolutely fucking hated this movie. But I, you know, get like one of the freeling brothers one of those guys as this character. But whatever that's not for me to to say the thing that is for me to say is that. Bob hoskins. I've seen them in a couple of things. I really enjoy in those things I haven't seen Super Mario brothers. So that's why or me, I know right, Mike. I'm very serious his. Yeah. His hold on the American accent. Not the best hold that. I've heard that isn't understatement. He cannot do an American accent, and this film, and he's trying to be the gruff detective, and I've seen him be a tough mobster like in the long Friday tough detective with the American accent and stuff isn't necessarily working for me. And he's got this dark back story. And we don't know exactly what that backstory is until a little bit later on in the film, but it comes up pretty quick that a tune killed his brother. So he has this real hatred of tunes. And I don't know if that necessarily works that our main character, I mean, it's gives him an arc right that he has to overcome his hatred of tunes to actually love Roger rabbit and learn how to live with tunes and have a sense of humor and all this kind of stuff get past his brother's death. So like, I said it gives them an ark. But I don't know if if we're to look at. Tunes as being a lower class. Having our main character hate this lower class. I don't know if that really feels good to me, it doesn't bother me. I guess I didn't really my issue with Hoskins motivation in this film hating tunes. It's I don't understand. Why I understand why he hates toons baked into the story where his brother got killed by. You know, Christopher Lloyd's character, but hating Roger rabbit, like the the payoff at the end where it turned where he's like, okay? I don't hate tunes anymore. If they don't build it up enough that he's actually coming to this realization, if that makes sense it feels like it feels unearned by the end of the movie where he's doing the little comedy bit at the end to kill the weasels. He's like embracing kind of what what Roger keeps talking about it just feels slightly unearned if that makes sense I'm going to secrete here. And I think that it makes us because he loved tunes for the longest time. And then. I'm gonna slow this down for my own horrific purposes. He watched a screaming pay AOL flaming I'd tune break. His brother's real human head with the piano. And so I think that his hatred of tunes. It's more associated with that trauma, and he's projecting on all tunes. And I think when he's able to force and then defeat the actual cause of it which is eighteen. I buy that he's kind of relieved from that. But just imagine if they would have filmed the scene of the brothers death. How quickly would they have slept in our on this his death acmes death? There's a lot of being smashed by large objects. You couldn't do arcane Maroons death now either because of the sensitivity of showing guns on screwing with what kids watch. You don't think this would have been better is an our film? I mean, it feels it feels a little bit like a film with training wheels in a way if that makes sense like maybe or like a like a like a what's it called like a restrictor on it? So you can't go above forty miles an hour because it's a PG what PG thirteen PG movie. I mean, even then they're pushing the envelope, but I can't help. But wonder what this movie would have been like if it had been our? That's when Ralph Beck. She would have taken over. Fhu. I don't think it would've worked as well. Because I think it works better when he hits that sweet spot of like five or eleven when you're still thinking, I know this isn't really happening. But what I'm in the theater, this is really happening when here Mike, and you watch it when you're sixteen you don't really care because you know, it's all characters and you're watching it as a story. But I think kids particularly the do start to think about those gruesome details, and so as I've you this as a device for torturing children, I think it's very successful in that way. I support it. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about dark entertainment for kids before on the show. I mean, we talked about the dark crystal, and maybe because I saw the dark crystal when I was a little younger, I really glommed onto that film because it did hit that sweet spot of scary and fantasy and children's entertainment all at the same time. But with this one, maybe yeah. Because I was a little bit older. It kind of missed the Mark. You know, like as watching this as a hardboiled film it hits the beats to that. I'm like, okay. This is somewhat success was far as getting some of those beats in there. And then rewatching again this last time, I really started to see more of more of a Neo Noir. Kind of sensibility to it. Like any valiant? Yes, he has a lot of trauma from his brother dying and one of the ways that he expresses that is through his alcoholism. And I didn't really pick up on the L Kahal ISM when I was younger watching the game now. And yeah, there's the very pointed seen of him throwing up as liquor pouring out the liquor throwing up in the air and shooting the bottle, but the idea of him being such a lush at the beginning and going for the drink in arcane Maroons office, and those kind of things I missed that. But also the thing that got me to watching it this last time is he's very much like Jake gets from Chinatown. In that he's working divorce case, which you know, in private detective circles is like one of the lowest things that you can do and him taking those photos of Jessica rabbit playing paddock cake with Marvin acme very similar to me to those photos that open up the beginning of Chinatown when Burt young as looking at those and again, we've got that fake out as far as when China tone opens we've got the black and white photos. So it looks like it's a black and white movie because the opening credits were so decelerated of color. So it's kind of a nice parallels far as like we're going to fake out the audience one, it's a cartoon the other one it's with these black and white photos, and both cases we have our main character working and divorce. You know, he doesn't divorce Jessica, but it's pretty much divorce case trying to get him to divorce. Jessica, I feel pretty good to play paddock with Jessica rabbit this and this. Where the podcast starts getting uncomfortable. Anyone else sexually attracted to occur? Tune voice by Kathleen Turner, is it just me I've been all about Kathleen Turner since I saw her and romancing the stone. I'm looking at a mug right now if that muck was expec athle- intern. I would be sexually attracted to that mug. So I don't know if if you'll notice this maybe this was just me, but in that scene where so you've got any value. And he takes the pictures of them playing Patty cake, which I'm assuming is euphemism for them having sex or playing Patty cake. Sure fine. And then you see Roger looking at the pictures. Did anyone else notice that Jessica rabbit looked different? I didn't actually she looks completely different than the character. We see on screen and the one one of the issues I do have with the character of Jessica rabbit is because she's shown face on. So like front on so often. She looks weird her face looks kind of weird because they didn't. Side to like have any real definition on her character's face like where her noses and so her nose just looks like two holes in her face, which was very purposeful decision. They talked about the drawing of Jessica rabbit and that they decided to not give her a nose head on. Which is it's almost like a when you over expose an actress, you know, you do that kind of von Sternberg lighting and somebody in the wash out a little bit like Madonna now that she's a little bit older they wash her out with light. So all the wrinkles, go way. But then you also lose her nose a lot of times. It's super weird got I'm glad that you noticed it might because it was one of those things where when I looked at. It was like that is not the same. Jessica rabbit that they are showing on screen. It's like the original design or like an alternate design that they have for her issue. Looks more like read from the tech savy red riding could dance exactly. She just looks Ferial and wisp like I just kept feeling like, you know, the usually base cartoons by drawing a celebrity. I feel like sh Jessica rabbit existed. And then years later, they created human being named Angelina Jolie based on her because that look in that vibe, fill various simpler to me. I really think that Hollywood from Ralph XI's cool world would not look the way that she does had just go rabbit not existed. And I know that can basin her voice of her in film. But I she doesn't look like him basing, it all I just think that there's a little bit of Jessica rabbit DNA inside of her goes that setup for a really crude joke because I was gonna make it. I don't know if anyone else wanted to want. This is something I watching the film this time I've curious about so acne and her are like. Are not saying, but she's having to put up a front to be thing. Is it socially unacceptable in the world that Roger rabbit exists in to be with a tune? If you're a human is banging cartoons allowed in this world that allowed. But like, so this is not an aside. But you mentioned at the beginning. It's like the cartoons are in their own ghetto. And if we're talking like, a socioeconomic thing, you know, in the in the thirties and forties and fifties in this country. It was socially unquote, socially unacceptable. Not saying I agree with it. But there was a idea that you know, African Americans and Caucasians shouldn't be together into racial. You know, it was frowned upon by racist. Is that the same thing here is that a thing I felt like that was kind of a missed opportunity sort of maybe they would have touched on it. If this film was complete didn't have that angle for kids. There's a whole thing. We could talk about this a little bit later when we talk about who censored Roger rabbit the book that this was based on. And we'll probably talk about the happy time murderers as well. But the idea of there's animal tunes, and then there's humanoid tunes in the humanoid tunes. Are it's almost we're going to continue to use this whole idea of African Americans in America as this basis here. So if I were to say that this in that terms, it's almost like humanoid tunes occasionally can pass or they're seen as like lighter skin kind of thing. So they are given higher status than like an animal. Tune what's weird to me in this movie? There's only really see one human tune you. See Jessica rabbit. I mean. Yeah, you see baby Herman who is a human baby cartoon character you see Yosemite. Sam who is a dwarf picture of a process. Yeah. Warf character caricature. Prospector? You see I guess technically you do see too because you see that like Jessica rabbit fake out in Toontown. But it's just weird to me that the one humanoid cartoon character. Tune in this movie is like a very sexy woman, and they don't really touch on that otherwise. Well, there is a very sexy. Christopher Lloyd humanoid to God, isn't that the truth? What those great eight effects where the guy's being blown up by an air. Compressor makes me wish makes me wish for the days of what is it dental dental paste or whatever they use raiders the lost ark with a hot fan. Boy, you know, could've done something like this or just something that looks really cheap and cheesy with share our rating right there. It's weird that he leaves that mask behind like, okay? There was a mask covering something else up. I wonder what he looked like without the mask on. But yes, the one missed opportunity was to talk a little bit more about humanoid to tunes. There was actually a humanoid. Tune in the book that is part of the cops investigating this murder case because it's kinda weird. Like, we don't get a lot of police presence in here that going back to the whole hardboiled idea. That's always the thing. As far as our main detective, what is relationship with the cups. It's usually Iraqi one, and we get the one seen in here where the cops are investigating acmes murder. But we don't really get them. Coming back into the story at all if memory serves it's more of like that scene with the cops ends up being about any being an alcoholic. Hey didn't used to be at valiant. So he used to be clean and sober and somebody else, and then also accusing from JAMES BOND, where it's like, here's all the gadgets that you're going to use at the end of the movie, I mean, they touched on in happy time murders, which I did appreciate that. Like you were at. Top you're at you were Phil Phillips at one point. And they did kind of miss out on that in this movie. It's like you were at valiant. But I feel like he was also looked down on because he only worked in Toontown. I mean, that's the thing about this movie going back to kind of tunes as African Americans tunes as the, you know, the the the minorities of the film like the fact that he's looked down on by the city cops the LAPD as like disguise, the tune guy. I think is interesting. But again, it feels very under underdeveloped under like under under appreciated aspect of this film that they could have gone into. But they didn't. Because again, it's not it's not really a film for adults. Like that's just a long in the short of it. This film's not for adults. I think that we need to talk about the rabbit in the room because we've gotten this far into the podcast, and we have essentially not mentioned Roger rabbit ethic. There's a reason for that. Because he's annoying. And I think that's what. What I appreciate about him. Most watching it older is that he is what it would be like if Mickey Mouse or Daffy duck. We're in your house. You would just driven nuts by him. If you had to be around him all the time. And so I appreciate that. He's not really the star. He's he's awful. He is very awful. And the voice is just so annoying. You know, what it might be annoying? But Charles Fleischer kills it. Oh, Charles Fleischer is a gift mankind. He is in one of my favorite films of all times dilating, and yeah, he can do no wrong in my book. He absolutely carries the having to be the voice of Roger rabbit. So well in this movie, I love him. And I love his performance. I mean, he's he's amazing and everything that I've ever seen him in. And he really has that knack. And that talent for doing these voices that like you can't even tell that it's him like if you heard his voice, and then you hear Roger rabbit, you're like there's no way. Right. And then he does like multiple voices in here that he does the cab voice. It's like really exactly exactly he is like his voice. He is able to do things with his voice that a a very talented voice actor could do. But he's never in the conversation for like most like up there with talented voice actors like last his contemporaries because I mean, he's not really a contemporary of like Mel block. He's more of a contemporary of like more of a Mark Hamill almost or like, Dan Castellaneta or the guy who does Jim Cummings the guy who does like all the Disney stuff. Now, it is like when the poo and stuff like that. Because like when I hear Jim Cummings doing when the poo or goofy. I'm like, okay, that's Cummings. But when you hear Charles flashing Roger rabbit, and then Benny the cab in the same move, your that's the same guy. And then the weasels is well at least two of the weasels. Yeah. Though is soon as David Lander started to speak. I was just like, oh, it's swifty. Okay. Anybody know nobody you guys didn't watch Laverne, Shirley. It's before my time. I know squeaky, I know squeaky dieted episode of the Simpsons, I haven't idea it's crazy. But it just might work like it did last week on other show we bring in the biggest most famous Dr from seventy six. Com. Who's phone hasn't been disconnected? Hello. And I want to correct myself before your audience corrects me, Jim Cummings as into the voice of goofy. Bill farmer does. Sorry. Well, it's like the guy or people now that do the voices of the Muppets and just like the close, but not close enough. So I can't really watch Kermit without Jim Henson doing his voice. I agree with the way. Roger rep was performed you really can feel the belief in the his ethos of we should play. We should have fun. Why shouldn't be like that? And it's really to me it hits home with the way children view play. Why wouldn't we do this? And I think that that's an important student Toontown and real town Toontown has that that child like sense of play which by the way includes things like violence and meanness because kids can be those things. And then the adult world, it doesn't have those things. It's not as colorful, it's very dreary. I mean that scene where he drives from the tunnel of the real world into toon town is one of my favorite scenes in this movie because I can't even place where he is like what is happening. He drives the tunnel. All of a sudden, it's like holy shit. What is happening? And then it turns out he's driving on a city street. And it's like where did this even come from? What is happening? What who what what? And it's like, it's like you said, it's like this weird dichotomy between the two in this film, and it works in that imagery, and then it works with Roger rabbit and Eddie valiant, it's a health scape. Because you I would rather die than be into town in Toontown, you might not die it might just keep happening. And when you see the two most beloved characters from Warner Brothers and Disney. They are tricking our hero into nearly dying in a fall off of a building. It's just this this poke that this is not necessarily a safe world. And I think I appreciate that. Because I think too often when you're doing things they're supposed to be childlike. It doesn't that reminder like childhoods, really scary. And in childhood, you know, kids get weird sometimes get angry and they're out of control. And so I think Toontown has that feel in fact, when you were talking Chris earlier about you know, is that a thing sex between humans in tunes. I was just picturing a human guy walking into a building in Toontown with a pile of bills, and a tune takes it and opens the door, and there's a bed an anthropomorphic glove on it shivering. And he's like, yes, this is what I've always wanted the hor- houses of Toontown. Here's something that you mentioned about the scene with Mickey and. Bugs Bunny, which I'm pretty sure correct me. If I'm wrong is the only time they've ever peered onscreen together is that tunes can't die from falling out of a building. But at valiant can. And that's the insane part. Right. Is that they're just like flying through the air? Like, okay. You guys are insane. I also like that it's books bunny that handsome danville because Disney was just like can't have our beloved Mickey do anything, Trixie like that. Mickey is a wholesome character Bugs Bunny is an Irish Danka. I mean. Yeah. Okay. That's why I was preferred Warner Brothers cartoons. Disney cartoons because of that sense of anarchy that we're talking about when it comes to this stuff is that it seemed like, and I know that there are the older things. Silly symphonies. Those kind of things I grew up when Disney was already sanitized in trying to really own the child market. Watching Warner Brothers cartoons as a kid. You got to see things like, you know, going after the dodo that cartoon with think it's Porky pig going after the dodo one of the most surreal things ever done in. You know, even like the cartoon with the Bugs Bunny where he's in the plane, and there's the gremlin I mean, so many bizarro eggs in that thing that I just absolutely love. How off the hook Warner Brothers cartoons. Were it makes me wonder talking about whether or not they can die perhaps the only time that these creatures have experienced mortality is the dip. Well, that's what they say. That's what the cop says he says for the longest time. We did know if you could kill a tune, and he figured out a way to do it. And it makes perfect sense. You're taking a character who is ink and dipping them in ink remover paint, remover, turpentine and benzine and acetone. Yeah. Because otherwise, you could chop them into the just re grow and go off on their merry way. Can we talk about possibly the Meena seen in this movie where an adorable little shoe, which they've animated and made the noise as just perfectly comes cozying up to our villain and judge doom takes it and exterminates screaming in the it was even worse than the script because it was more of like a creature than a shoe, you know, an anthropomorphic shoe is horrifying enough. But this was more like a chipmunk or something in the script. It was just like oh my God. Do you know? Thank you the thing. I love about this movie like taking away the fact that Mike like you said you not a huge favor this movie. I think the three of us can all agree. Christopher Lloyd is amazing in this movie as the villain. He is so committed to the role, and I kind of regret reading more into the movie because the person that. Originally, auditioned for the role and was deemed too scary. I wish that that movie existed in some alternate universe. Tim Curry's play judge. Do you know that movie would be even more bat shit than this because kids had problems with judge doom in this movie with Christopher Lloyd playing him? Can you imagine Tim curry playing judge doom that would be just ballistic? Do you notice that when his glasses are off? He doesn't blink. Yeah. I honestly got thought that his teeth were cartoon teeth that he is perfect. I will grant that movie that he is great. And then noticing little things like the way he steps out of the way of the dip when it's on the floor and stuff. It's like, okay. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And when the reveal comes he shows, his his eyes and his hair Easter stew in the voice. It's a transformation. It's very unsettling. The thing that happens after the reveal where he flies through the air on those springs is it's still creepy to me. Now, it is straight up horrifying when he's like tilting forward flying through the air. And you're just like what in the holy Heller. We've gotten ourselves into this movie because this I mean, this is the climax of the film and his come up and coming real quick. But man, he really gets in those last couple shots right at the end of movie really selling how horrifying a character. He is. We haven't talked about Deloris at all which is interesting because there's always the Kadhamy of the two women in these films. There's the good girl in those the phone tall though. Jessica, she's not bad though, Mike, she's just drawn that way all in the and she actually at the end of the day is not the phone with. Although we think that she is and Joanna Cassidy I'd never think that that woman gets enough credit. Because she has been in a lot of great things. We've talked about Bladerunner on the show before. And she's done a lot. Great work. She continues to work now bowl. Still see you're on TV these days. But I thought she did really good job of Dolores. Who's kind of like, you know, the hard scrabble lady in the way that she loaned Eddie money. But and I'm not talking about the singer boy, you really want right into that one gave us two tickets to paradise with that show. I'd like to take you home tonight. If you know what I mean, she does a good job in that role. And I really appreciate her. And I think the whole dropping of the pants thing later on with just it's a little much, but you know, kind of still works. I have this rule in my head that I look at female characters, and I kind of match like would it be fun to be this character? Would it be fun to play this character would would there be stuff there? You know? Or is this really just like someone who's there only to be attractive and watching just grab? Older. She's a cool character. She's caught up in some things. Then later, she has some more thority and she stands up for Bersell for her, man. She seems to be calm competent handling things on her own. And I realize the Jessica rapid if you were to do is like Spoleto of Star Wars story, but try to do it. Well, and you did just correct it solo movie don't do that. That's a horrible idea. But it could be good. Don't give them any ideas Roberts meccas. We'll take any opportunity to make a bad movie. Welcome Tamar win. There are some genuinely funny lines in this movie. The whole idea of him not even having a nickel for the streetcar. And then writing in the back with those kids, very Marning fly of them. And when he leaves he says, thanks for the cigarettes as like, okay, that's kind of funny. I thought Bob Hoskins was really funny in this. And I thought. He played it. Just right. Like, he was I kind of felt like he was a captain kangaroo character. Like, he's the host of this thing. And he's the only guy that can kind of hold these worlds together. And at the end becomes kind of a human cartoon when he does all the stance and singing, and yeah, he gets to say a lot of things that are really funny. But again is that surprising considering how Bob Hoskins is a fantastic actor. No, I just like talking about Bob Hoskins me to write. I like talking about as Harry back, Mike, I've not met you. But I've seen pictures of kind of what your face looks like. And I think that you're back probably has the same amount of all each is mine does back shoulders as it is everywhere. Boy, this is really taken a turn. I have hair every place. I don't want hair, and where I do want hair. None gross there. I don't have hair on my face, and I don't have hair most places, but I would love to have a beard more. So than my wife, obviously, just took that one. Right away from me. We're just snatching jokes up. Mica fuck yourself because I knew that shit was coming. That's why said it. Yeah. Speaking of people that could have been in this movie that weren't Harry. The fact that Harrison Ford was too expensive for this movie Craxi up that would have sucked. I don't know. Like there are so many people that were considered for the role again. Like, there's an alternate universe out there where Chevy Chase played Eddie valiant. Or if Bill Murray hadn't had this weird way of getting in touch with his lawyer to get him part. He would have taken this. It would if there's a there's weird stuff with this movie where it's like man, what could have been is that why Bill Murray took Space Jam. So he could work with cartoons. I don't know. Because like when I was reading it said that he was considered for the role, but he missed out on the offer. So must be it's not a coincidence that it's another live action movie with cartoon characters. However sorry to break toll. You millennials out? There myself included Space Jam is not a good movie. Don't worry LeBron will make it good could care less. And no he won't and just as every good detective story is about one thing. But then there's actually the overarching story I do. Like the overarching story as far as the idea of this is all being done to Los Angeles. That Toontown is being bought up in knocked down and a radical of tunes. Basically cartoon holocaust is about to happen in order to make sure that the freeway goes through. And of course, we have jokes which don't necessarily play for people in the mid west like me where they're talking about. You know, Los Angeles has the best public transportation system. And nobody's gonna drive on the freeway, though, this whole idea of taking the streetcars out and making way for freeways or bringing in public transportation that is buses or just eliminating public transportation that same thing happened here in trait where it was just like oh people get killed by streetcars. Don't worry. We'll bring in fucking buses, and we'll sell them to you at wholesale. I think it's funny that you think you're in the midwest. Excellent. I live in the place where it is bored. And there is nothing I know Detroit Detroit as a bastion of excitement compared to Lincoln, Nebraska. We were called the Paris of the midwest. So I consider a so if truth be told we are in the Middle East, and you guys are more in the mid west. My daughter gets excited when a car drives by our house. She says car because that's where we're at. Now. Let me put it this way. You know, you live in the mid west when a Chick-fil-A opens here, and I kid you not it was the best new restaurant voted by the the newspaper in town. I do find it funny retired on genocide because za meccas has said. Documentary that he compares the dip to Hitler's finals Lucien, which my God, keep your mouth, keep your mouth shut as his please. So can we are going to some really Dirk territory here. Honestly, it's not that where even reaching here. Right. Like that's not a reach like he talks about taking this machine to to town and scrubbing it off the face of the earth. And there's there's a lot of wrong in this movie that is not gonna fly in the politico. Politically, correct time. There's the screening Indian bullet, right? God. God there's the straitjacket wearing weasel Dame psycho. There's just a lot of things. And I'm not saying that they should be removed or I'm not calling on a crusade for them. It's just I think this movie, and I think Robertson meccas, and I mean, this is a positive thing. I think there's something wrong with him. And I think when he demonstrates that. There's something wrong with him. He makes really cool stuff. I think the reason why stuff like in between your stuff like who framed Roger rabbit wouldn't fly now. And this isn't a fault thing. But I think it it's not going to happen because we have south park, and the Simpsons, and Rick and Morty and the happy time murders where you can get all this stuff that you wanna see so me because adults and kids aren't watching stuff together anymore. Yeah. I mean, this is meant to kind of bridge the gap, right? This is a film for children and adults. And what I do appreciate about. This film is that it is a film that tries to span the gap of giving adult something giving kids a film like this is not. Is super adult like Shrek. It's a children's film. But there's also a lot of jokes. That are not for kids. I mean, there is a penis joke in that film about Lord Farquaad. He's compensating for something. Like as a kid. I didn't know what that meant. But like now, it's like always got a small dick when the Riesel reaches down just because dress and with a bear trap is hand or whatever. And he says nice booby trap. I'm like, okay. That's kind of funny. I would say that that totally sold by Bob Hoskins. I mean, there are a million ways of reading that line. And I think maybe ten of them work and he found the right one. I know that I was ripping on his accent earlier. But he carries this movie often, he curious this movie. I mean, the mine stuff that he has to do with no character to act against or characters to act against he's having conversations with an entire cartoon cruet a few points here when he's tall. Jessica. And Roger and. Yeah, that's that's fantastic. Does a great job of that. And the way that he moves his body the way that he interacts with these things the way that and I'm glad for the most part. They are pretty good with I lines in this movie. There aren't too many times where people look like they're looking out into space or not matching where the actual characters are. So they do pretty good job with that. And I know that the big selling point when it came to this movie was the interactivity of the cartoons in a real environment. Which now seems like it would be super easy to do. But in nineteen eighty eight when this came out probably took a lot of mechanical jiggling of stuff in order to say, this thing is going to move from here to there to the other place like seeing the octopus at the bar without the octopus there and seeing all the things that are moving around that. It's like, okay. Yeah. They did a good job of this stuff. Off. Can we talk about the bumping of the lamp bumping? The lamp is a term for going extra mile taking the extra step and the scene in the film. When Eddie is trying to sauve the handcuffs off him in Roger. And there's a lamp above them in. It's a senior kind of just I think about it. When you see but the lamp above them. It's hanging down it gets bumped. And it's going in a circular motion around the room casting, the light around them and initially ZIM meccas didn't want those amac just wanted to keep hitting these head. And he thought that it would be funny clearly is sense of humor is great of. Instead, the animators like no let let us let us let us go for this. So what they ended up doing was they animated the shadow so that it would. So you could tell that because Roger was interacting with something in the world, it further sell sold kind of the space that they're living in the fact that they're interacting with each other. And it's the extra mile that these Disney animators went and while the audience. Not notice it. It's something that like mattered to them and matter to like, Michael Eisner that you know, it's just bumping lamp is not like a term for like going the distance going farther than you need to. And that seen every time. I see it is beyond impressive. It's also Eddie money's most sexual song, isn't it? Oh my God. It's one of those things too. Where if you don't notice it, you don't notice it. But if the shadows weren't right if that lamp was going around, we didn't see those shadows move. I'm sure I would notice it right away. Exactly. And that's and that's the point that the animators were we're going for is even if you didn't notice it your subconsciously noticing it. But when you like focus on it. If you see like the video where you see like a gif of it. It is so impressive in so seemless that there are some things in this film regarding the Bob Hoskins or other characters interacting with the cartoons and the weasels guns hanging. In the air looks really shitty. And some of the other kind of gags aren't great and some of them feel like those gags in the three D movies that were coming out in the late two thousand. That's like the character holds the bat up at the camera, and oh, God, the three d if feels kind of like that in a way, like we're just showing off technology for technology sake. But when you have something like this bumping the lamp seen. You're just like holy cow. The amount of talent and work that is put into this is really impressive. And it really helps solidify the world and space these characters live in though, there were times and kind of wish that I could control this through a DVD or something there are times where the shadows are little much, and it just doesn't match up that while I'm just like that's really too dark of shadow. But then again, it could be my TV it could be fucked up who knows? But it's not like one of those movies where they have a gimmick in it and Vishnu the gimmick and everything. Else's kind of bland and stayed like they went, you know, hell or high water they did a fully immersed movie. Yeah. They bumped they bumped the lamp through the entire film. They went for it. And really they really went for it. And I gotta give them credit for that. Even if the film is not Mike. You're not the biggest fan of it. Like, you still have to give credit where Credit's due for for going and going that extra mile yet. No. When it comes to gimmicks. I mean, we'll be talking about brainstorm in a few months than we'll be talking about gimmicks pretty much the whole time. The one thing I was very surprised about watching. This movie was the rear bear show up in that last big group of cartoons. Come out of Toontown. I thought for sure he would have been a movie jail. This whole time. Theater? Yeah. I did too. I have a VHS of the sing along version of that that has been affectively disavowed by Disney, I have the Hongkong DVD. Yeah. It's one of those movies that you know, it's not nearly as exciting as people make it out to be. We do a soda on that. And we also talked about route Becsey's Coon skin, which is quite a sight to behold. But at the same time, the fact that they've knowledge it in this film as little odd. And it's weird that they had to negotiate who they could get in the movie and stuff that some characters to pricey. I know like the didn't end up getting like the Popeye characters you, you know, you're talking about being triggered by olive oil, but jokes on you. She's not in here. But I not triggered by olive oil. Okay. If anyone listening to this honestly thought that anything in this triggers made nothing did adult was what he would. Pecker in this movie. I think he kind of shows up at the end and sort of goes in front of the camera. I think because there's a lot of them right towards the end. And it was a little tough to kind of sort through all the faces. You know, what I really appreciated? The fact that this Disney film. It's win Avesta. Yes. I know this Disney film ended with the one of the most iconic Warner Brothers cartoon characters. The fact that you put Porky pig at the end of a Disney film is actually kind of insane. It's an olive branch for all the years. All the lives. Lost the cartoon wars, the tune wars so much dip was spent. But apparently what he would pick her is in this film somewhere. We're gonna take a break plane interview with the author of who censored Roger rabbit, Gary k Wolfe, and we'll be back right after these brief messages, this is fire fighter Raphael poor yet for firehouse subs. Introducing new firehouse payers here. Your favorite small sub with a signature side, like the awesome, five cheese, MAC and. Cheese and remember portion of every purchase at firehouse subs goes towards helping first responders firehouse subs joy more subs. Save more lives. Participating locations only. Firehouse donate a minimum of one million dollars in two thousand nineteen to the firehouse subs public safety foundation by donating point one one percent every purchase. Hi, it's Jamie, progressive's number one number two employee. Leave a message at the hey, Jamie. It's me, Jamie. This is your daily pep talk. I know it's been rough going ever since people found out about your Capella group mad harmony, but you will bounce back. I mean, you're the guy always helping people find coverage options with the name your price tool. It should be you giving me the pep talk. Now get out there, hit that high note, and take mad harmony all the way to nationals this year. Sorry pitchy. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Would you say that we're just to do to talk about movies over the culture cast? I'm reading. Yeah. I don't know dudes. Correct. Nomenclature though, dudes broS. Okay. What about movie nerds? No, okay. Dudes is fine. Not nerds anything, but movie nerds well over here at the culture cast. We talk about new movies overlooked gems classics and some films that caused us to question our sanity twice a week. Yeah. Hot to trot comes to mind for sure hot to try was a real mess. So make sure to check out the culture cast on itunes, Stitcher radio wherever you get your podcast. I'm Dave hunt. And I'm one of the co hosts for super true stories podcast where two guys suffer through and report back on some of the worst documentaries. You can stream for free. And the other co host film is beautiful lie that teaches us who we are on the inside. David. I look at the documentaries. The ugliest truths. Teaching you about mixed martial arts and fishing poorly, fake stories and everything you wanted to know about poor production values and stock footage. Check us out on itunes, Google play or a super true stories dot com. Optima primary take one John Wayne here from the Branagan podcast has anyone seen the full Vernon. Sweaty Vernon here from the come on. Hey, how's it going? I'm that ringler from schlock treatment podcasts, hoping you'll tune into after movie diner. My favorite part. Also at the same time completely useless, turn mentioned, the movie us, the interviews with independent film directors things like that. Wrangler from the shock treatment podcast here hoping you'll turn in for. From the schlock treatment podcast, hoping you'll turn. Famish? Oh, I'm gonna come down there and nail your face to the fridge. Listen up folks here from slack treatment. I want to tell you about a great podcast, the after movie diner. There's plenty of pie and everything's delicious. Especially the host the sweaty ver-, Nick. No, no, no, no. He didn't even mention that. The punk coasters available every Monday, MD putt cost. Don't blow spot dot com and itchy means. It. I do definitely want to ask about you. And I'm very curious how you decided to get into writing way back when I was a air force, captain. And I met my wife she is love of my life. I walk into the officers club handsome field in in Massachusetts. And I saw her on the other side of the room. She was there with a bunch of her airline stewardess friends. She was wearing a shortest Gresley had ever seen on a real life human being and I immediately love head over heels. And we started going out after that. And I started writing her poetry was not the best poetry. She's kept it and looked at it since kill ya. I'm I'm no poet. But she liked the poems. And she said, you know, they're they're really good to be a really good writer. You should. You should write short stories. And so I started ready short stories I had an inclination toward writing because the ears in years ago. I mean, we're going back now to when I was in the second or third grade second grade teacher gave me give all class picture color. The pitcher was of farmhouse barn field offense and Akao scanning out in the middle feel and the object of the coloring lesson was to stay inside the lines to stay inside the lines, and that was all required. And in those days, I was probably good at staying. I don't lines as anybody in the world piece of cake here, I took that picture home. And I looked at it. And I call her the farmhouse yellow which farmhouse were this town, call Earl Illinois farm town population fourteen hundred and the farmhouse is mostly yellow colored yellow coz, Barbara because of course, Coa burns were feel with green, and I'm looking at that cow and cow alone out there in the middle of feel looks kinda sad lonely. My mother always told me that wouldn't people were sad lonely. Got blue will you know, good for people. Must be good for cows. So I cleared the Cowboys do and that they so the very next day the teacher hands out on her mind, which she kept and she called me up in front of the front of the class and hill that paper up over my head. She fish the classes shield beeper up over my head. She said clashed on look at this stupid stupid picture. Everybody knows that cows are Brown, kosher 'cause her black or white sometimes cows Brown black white altogether. Never never never our cows blue. She called my mother said, you know, I think think you've got problem with Gary, I think there's something wrong with him had to go to school and meet with the teacher and get this firsthand that there was something wrong with me that night, the mother and father shut down the living room. And my mother Tiffany why these colour cow blue, and they told my mother, and she will ima-. Much. It's you it. Oh, you told me people's loamy? I. Several core. Dekalb blue and she should go. Okay. Well, you play while you're father, and I have to talk about this. No. You gotta understand. My Paris mccur were children of depression. My mother. Headed east grade education before she had to quit and go to work by father main issue third grade before he had to quit and go to work. So is she at the time worked in the in the school cafeteria? My dad rid account pool hall. I mean, these are not which call well educated upscale liberals. This was gonna have ending. So they told me because I play I. Ah ten fifty minutes later, my mother should back in she. And my are shut me down again. And they said, you know, your, you know, your debt my talked about this. So we decided that the next time you want to call her call blue in color, code blue. And that was the first time that anybody had ever jollity, did my creativity. And then second grade, I probably did not whole lot. But that was really the first time that I've still got that picture. And so the next assignment that I got from that very same teacher was would to write a little essay of what you did on your summer vacation. So I wrote about how I went out in the backyard built a spaceship in the mood. He just looked at it and gave it back in that was that was probably my fictional rating periods. But they didn't really get into rating as a as a profession until after my wife and courage me because of the the poems are too. So what was that like as far as that moves into professional writing? I mean, that's never an easy transition. Well for me, it wasn't that hard. I had a job at the time. I was still near for. I was I was working. At a airbase here in Massachusetts and get up really get it before in the morning, and I would right from like four to seven thirty. And then I go to work, and I ready short stories wrote twenty or thirty short stories, which I've since collected into a a book, which should you could buy my website. I did you know twenty or thirty short stories, and I sent the first one off to a science fiction publication. And I didn't hear anything the year went by. And I you know, I saw separating short stories and will listen to so bad that it just went, right? Any trash bucket after a year? I got a telegram, and to you know, we got to story which was actually call love story. And it was unfortunate because it came out that short story came out at the same time as the L E McGraw movie in. There was no similarity whatsoever. But the we got your story, and we want to publish it. And if you want us to shit and agree to send us a telegram back. We'll send you a check for fifty dollars fifty bucks. Wow. You know, it was a fifty page scurrying book a page. So I said, of course, I want this. And by then we had moved to San Francisco. So a said, well, you know, I've I've now sold something. And now a published author need an author wardrobe so I'm gonna use my fifty bucks to buy an office work group. So I went out, and I bought myself a feed jacket tweed sport coat with a leather patches on the sleeves and a black turtleneck. I was still a smoker I would have bought myself into pipe but put that years ago. So then I is here for Cisco. I went to upper grant straight. And bought a custom-made peer of leather pants, and we took his still wear proud. Except that this was the early seventies. And my look PS where bell-bottoms why Bill bottoms, but the whole authors wardrobe want of costing three hundred twenty five dollars so him out with a with a net loss of you. Do the math the two seventy five on the for sale. But after that every short story that I wrote was published. It was really not a an agonizing process. I got commend her by very famous fiction raider demon night, and he did a street NFL Ogies one a year, and he would always right meets. Hey, I've got an anthology coming up a mystery. So. Dollies stories, and it was really not much of a of course, I wasn't trying to make a living at it either. I mean, it was at point more more of a hobby. And I sure to realize that for you ready twelve short stories, I write one novel. And so I I wrote a novel ages Doubleday Doubleday came back and said, yeah, we'll publish this. And not only that will give you a contract for a second one. Just you writing socil-. So I wrote the second one the first one was killer -able which. Still in science fiction circles, when I go to science fiction convention opposed to Disney convention, I have noticed the guy you wrote capable it is still my most popular science fiction novel. I still get thirty to forty minutes of on it. It was making seventy six actually just now being made into a graphic novel comic book series, and it's being turned into a table game by a company British bay that Mitch little soldiers are turning it into table. That was coming out right around the same time that Rollerball was coming out. Oh, yeah. Okay. I'll give you the Rollerball killer bowl. And remember what I told to before my first story came out, and it was called story at team out. Same time is Ryan no Neil McGraw movie law story, and I got criticized because people said all your off to title. It took like I said it was one year. Year process for the for the store between the time. I sit in Woking on actually for a year before that. So it was two years and the movie came out in that interim so no crossover. I wrote this book killer Bill named exit si- twenty one just the name of Super Bowl that that played and a to Doubleday that was my first novel day ever since day in the air show. You know, we're going to publish it. They had a hit an eighteen month or two year backlog. So it's going to be almost two years before it actually came out, and we all eating in the interim between the time that I wrote curable and the time in extra came out, the Storch story role Paul came out their score magazine was after I had already a short story Rollerball came out was was made into a movie and one least. While I was reading a book come out, my editor said she should there's this looting Rollerball being out. I think we should change the name of your book to able to kind of capitalize on. And I said sure, I didn't I didn't know at the time. No marketing study about publishing printing and stuff like that. So they did it and mine novel out after the movie, and I was criticised ripping off the Prims of movable, but the real dagger to my heart was that when it was still titled x six twenty one would it was. That might have gotten me a contract to realize it playboy, and when the movie came out Rollerball and the book came out, and it'd be we'd be titled at their might the double the retitled killer bowl. And I was criticized for being off the movie at contract. Phil true. I thought there went my visits to the playboy mansion and hanging half. And all kind of stuff turned out. I was able to do that years later. But. Goes, but kind of interesting because now the colorful block they see is coming out as a comic book a graphic novel. And it's coming out as a table game in the talk about doing a movie it just read it. I read it occasionally would I published new additions of public- new addition the buddy, you're half ago. But one thing that that's always gone over my head is that in the original. It was named ex. I the game that they're playing is Super Bowl and a Super Bowl was kind of a new thing when I wrote this my wrote this novel, of course, it's not a new thing anymore. The guy who did the aims to gates that we get in trouble with the NFL if we call this Super Bowl, and I don't know. So I asked my turn. And he said, yeah. So yeah. So. It actually the name of the game. They're playing is now called terrible instead of Super Bowl. Let's chiller bowl twenty one instead of Huber twenty one which I actually like a whole lot better. I probably would have done back in nineteen seventy six if I thought about it. Yeah. Tell me about how Roger rabbit gets optioned. I wrote a second novel published that one give me a contract with third novel wrote out published that one, you know, this is going to be my life. This is going to go on forever. So they give you contract for four novel for the for the novel. I wanted something that nobody had ever done before. I wanted to push the envelope. I wanted to use the things that I had most loved when I was younger at a young adult that I that I really loved and those things were comic books and cartoons comic strips and hard-boiled armed district. And I mean, you could see the comic books comic strips because. My mother wise woman that she was told me that if I wanted to get out of that little farm town, and that wind up running my father's pool hall when I grew up at the one thing I could do to make that happen to read just read and that will get you out of there. But she never put it in your restriction on what I read. So comic books all time. Comic books in my father in educated man, but his reading privileges were a graphic crime magazines, which were very popular back in the forties fifties and the they showed. They talked about real actual cries that you real actual photos of real actual crimes thrill, dead bodies. Dismembered. People. Crete? Luckily, a tradition to better literature. It'll foot Marlow Sam Spade. Mickey simple lane hardboiled private is. But those were my loves as I wanted to do something that would combine those two things I am not easily done am not as easy to sound. So I was looking around for a trying to get an inspiration for how I could do that use cartoons and her boiled private together and who's watching Saturday Brinker tunes when Saturday morning just for research. I told my way purely for research and sitting here so you win cartoons. And I it was taken by not the cartoons themselves, which were pretty simplistic Beckett those days, but by the commercials, I saw real kids talking to Kerr two carriages crunch snap, crackle and pop. Tony the tiger of the tricks rabbit real kids talking to cartoon characters and nobody. I thought that was I should. Wow. What a great idea for books. That would be the Etel Roker to characters will real kind of route. Would that be? So I spent a year just researching conventions of books cartoon strips to see what happened in comic books cartoons. It didn't happen in real life with real people and how I could make a novel on that. And I brought in my heart book private eye. Eddie valiant named him after my father came up with a mystery would only work in to town in the place that I created speedy. You're researching writing the book, and of course, that was my novel for Doubleday show double nation. Here's my fourth novel. And they rejected it rejected. The I reject I'd ever had in my life Roger rabbit. So called my editor. I said sure why why did you reject this? She she did they know. Well, you can keep the mu-. Money that you give us back the money, but we get published the book, and they should I don't care about. Why can't you polish this? Well, I I think it's the most creative thing you've ever done. Maybe it's the most creative novel. I read she said, it's just it's brilliant. It's unusual at that. I had to send it over to the marketing department, and they were the ones that rejected it so I called head of the marketing department of dole. They Charlie why did you when did you my book, and he should? There's no category for it on the bookstore shelves. I can't I can't tell this. He said, it's not it's not a regular adult novel. It's not a fantasy. It's nothing fiction. Not the children's book. I can't sell this story. Charlie. Lemme ask you, what would you do if somebody gave you Gulliver's travels or Allison wonderland or the wizard of Oz? But would you do with those Neath offer minuted consoles eater? So back to my age. I should whose who've been having a pretty easy time of it up to this point, you know, spending completed novel collec- in his fifteen percent. And I said, what am I gonna do? You know, I can't I can't sell this book. I want be rare anymore because this is what I wanna right? I mean, this is what I love and he said don't worry about it. So we'll we'll find out for. So he started sending out to other publishers. And he was sent. It out to many of the pool Scher sometimes different editors the same publisher. And Kennedy rejects Kip, getting rejects always for the same reason. The editors loved it. Harkening departments have Allen can Solis ill publishes because we can't sell it along the way that Roger knock got one hundred ten regions hundred I used to go to the that used to come in and by mail in those days, Email, just go to go to my mailbox every day and open up and my wife on time for the daily disappointments because they'll be sometimes too and free recheck letters on that book in three day finally bulk landed on the desk of a woman, they were Becca Martin who was a senior editor at Saint Martin's breast, and she had just published a big bestselling novel. So the editor the editor in chief at Saint Martin's press the president. Company gave Rebecca vanity project. Rebecca next book published you can publish whatever you want any book. You wanna publish will publish is. Look what have it as your advocate across your desk? She read all before her. She loved it. And so he went to the prisoner of Saint Martin's, yours publish then. He should okay. Let me take a look. So he took a look read it that night caller, the next day and Rebecca tools, you could push anything you wanted. Polish this because I can't sell it. So Rebecca step up to the plate and said, you heater publish it. Or I quit and yeah. So they publish it ABI in very small quantities less than five thousand copies, which is almost nothing toll for four ninety five. I believe if I had any foresight. I would have bought all five thousand copies myself because now if you can find one on EBay, they go for around four hundred bucks, the book will be published by shaver. And there was a a one year leg in my soul that I make to eighty came out and they eighteen one during that time nineteen eighty plus a couple of months the books. We'll come out and one day. I got a call in the Bush. And the jury wolf I should. Yes. It is. Roy Disney, and I just raise your novel who censored Roger rabbit, and I'd like to know if you if shouldn't having Disney make a movie of it. Right, right. Disney. Okay. Who? Yeah. French Chevy me here. But he should know this really ROY Disney at turns out this somebody St. Martins. I never found out who try because I wanted to kiss her him for doing this for somebody civic copy of the main script to do see and said, we I think he'd be interested in this turns out that most movie companies in those days, maybe still, I don't know. Had spies for a better term in publishing houses that will send them advanced copies of novel that they think that the movie company would be interested in and Disney one of those Mortenson person sent to Disney who says you're you're rabbit. It made his way up to ROY Disney Disney. Yeah, she we'd love to do this. And the reason that they wanted Roger rabbit reason Roger rabbit was important to them a couple of reasons at that time in nineteen eighty were danger of becoming a second rate movie studio, they were no longer making first run pictures. They were making pictures that were attended be like the second half of Bill feature of which there were no war know or don't feature making. The nutty professor and of the black cold room and the black hole, and you know, the black Alder disappeared down the black hole. They were making second rate movies. They had been offered ET and they passed the offers Star Wars, and they passed it needs some horrendous mistakes and wanted something that they could use to reestablish themselves as a major motion picture studio. They saw Roger rabbit is being that movie. The also one of the characters because they had Mickey and Donald. But the key was like the corporal spoke spouse. So you could really have fun with it Donald could fun. Nobody could understand what he said. So. He was out and if you've ever been at Disneyland or Disney store realized that Disney makes a tremendous amount of money on merchandise with characters on it. So they wanted a new stable of characters that it could merchandise, and, you know, make some additional money at and they saw rabbit as being that character, and and baby Herman into somewhat extent Essex. So they had a lot of reasons to wanted to movie on the offer it was actually more money than I ever made on all put together because it sure, you know, going at it. I really did not believe this book could be made in for movie. I if you've read the book and everybody should because classic. I use a lot of cartoon and comic strip conventions in the book is intended or readers who user immagination, you you you get into this world. And you imagine what it is like be there, for instance, in the in the book who says garage rabbit the characters don't speak percent. They don't have voices they can talk, but they choose not to the put up word balloons. So instead of talking to a tune you read the tone, and if the two turns around is word balloon also turns around so you have to read it in reverse if a Coon pleased, the piano, physical notes, come out of the piano, people will collect those musical notes cut them at eight by ten feet. So that's where teams that comes from. And if you get shot by. By a by attune gun. It puts a bang balloon. And that kind of turns Brooklyn lead on the floor. You can take bang balloon and analyze it. And find out the caliber of the two nuns. If you get the tune gun compare that balloon to the bull in you've got gotten it's a match. So there's a lot of conventions in the book that require readers to use their education. He can't do that movie. You know, when they were making when they're first trying to make the movie, they tried using the word balloon Senate, just or it turned to move into a silent movie character put up a word balloon, you'd have to read the weren't blue actually go on and it was a silent movie. So that was one of the first thing to go even though they really wanted to use that because they really clever creative. The, you know, the conventions of of the book that conventions of the movie. So I really didn't think they could make this into a thought that they were too many too many things that had to be overcome creatively to ever get the story on screen in a in a way, in any way, shape or form resembling what I intended when I wrote the world created the world and for wildest proved me, right? They they really didn't have the manpower to to do this movie back in nineteen eighty the try to producers at it. The technology wasn't there to integrate by action animation. So they came to me, and they said, you know, we're thinking just get the movie done. What would you say if instead of cartoons and human beings, we did human beings and human beings dressed in constume, the Disneyland on cheats? You don't I'm gonna have a little wind up with Fred macmurray as. And Dean Jones as the rabbit and Haley does is is Jessica and Kurt Russell as BB Herman in customs as well enough. The compromise the premise a little bit and they will. Yeah. You know, cooler it's prevailed and they went off trying to animation live action and show you, you know, eventually it was Stephen Spielberg who to tilted the teeter totter. But to show you what a difference Steve Spielberg mention Hollywood back in one thousand nine hundred eighty two ROY Disney went to brokers since they were making this live action animated movie, and we would like to have Bugs Bunny come in and say you'll what's up and walk off screen and war broke sydell. Wall to to register get lost in the snow way. That books is ever going to be woke? Never gonna happen to forget about it. So five years later when steep school per walks into were brush and makes sixty over want books Bundy to come in and say, well, doc horse or stick books, Stephen bugs, what what about what the roadrunner quickey pig, and then you many say and Tweety burden and Lester you've got to have them too. So Stephen walks out all of the brother characters for very modest fee. Could've could've paid my money to make for my paper route it was very modest fee to pay for these characters the choir. -ment was the books being a superstar had a contract and bugs contract called for bugged to be in every scene. Vicky mouse anytime Mickey appeared with screen had to be there to because we're. Oh equals bridge. Tar all right. And I'm only have to shooter the exact same amount of screen time to have the exact same number of words of dialogue. So you go through. But in nineteen eighty one the still we still could pull together, and then a couple of things, and it looked like he never would it looked like the they would right that you really couldn't make the movie and then the nineteen eighty five believe, right? Didn't he was let go away was go. He was a shunted off into the background and brought in Michael Eisner. Michael Eisner brought in Jeff catching bird whom he'd worked on work with twentieth century brought in chef as the head of Disney motion, pictures and just a mission. And when the head of a studio changes like at the first thing that happens is all of the projects, they have underdevelopment get thrown out, and they start all projects because the old project would got into trouble firstly. So then throughout every project they've been working on except for Roger rabbit. Everybody realize that they hadn't do that project had to keep that one. So they did and Michael in Jif get something nobody Disney ever before brought it outside producer and that guy. Steve Stolberg Stephen ruled the book when it came out and always thought it would be a fine movie always liked it. So Steve came in as producer and heathen picked the director of the richer. Bic was Bob's. Amac us. Bob had been offered directing same back in eighty or eighty one. But took a look at it to look at Disney said, you guys will never be able to do this. Right. So he would off to direct bunch of movies like back to the reform Bill in other stuff, you convert. So now, he he came back because Steve Spielberg isn't involved and from there there really is there really wasn't hurt. I mean once Spielberg Boston meccas, especially Jeff Katz. Berg got involved in the looney. Just just roll along. I give Stephen a lot of credit above cements had the jn. But guess Berg was the guy that really made it happen that he he had publicly come out saying that when when he took over with Disney, it was gonna who's gonna go for singles and doubles in the occasional trolleys never gonna go for the fences. It was never gonna make a movie in fourteen million dollars which was when back in those days, maybe probably more and chicory didn't blink. Okay. Just make sure you do it right and the production, but it could going up going up to thirty five forty fifty sixty top up somewhere around seventy eight million dollars. And Jeff be never been looking at the at the Russia and kept saying, you know, great jokey point just bigger, you do it. Right. And I give him the credit for it. Because. If this had failed amid it would have been much as his job it. We'll give in his career ill movie movie got produced a released in nineteen eighty eight. They premiered it at Radio City Music hall in New York City. So I was I was at the premiere and I was sitting in the balcony with the AP's, right? On my left a head. Kathleen Turner, who was voice, Jessica, my right, head immi Irving who was Stevens wipe at the time and was the singing voice of Jessica. Because just kept Wayne was pregnant when she was supposed to do the song. And either she she can't sing at all. Or if you didn't know the press control, but she couldn't say Stephen today me aid. He'll you saying you give it a whack Amy said, nobody's going gonna believe that Jessica has one voice when she singing one species talk in stevensville neither or two. And so I'm sitting here between these two fantasy objects of mine, and I have never actually seen the movie all the way through because they were still working on it right up the Chila premier and I had never seen my credit screen. I'd never seen that. So I was going to see my movie completed for the first time it was going to see my. My credit for the first time. And and thinking my shelf, you know, life just doesn't get any better news. This is life gift and life got better because gasoline lead over put her hand on my leg that she would Myers. Gary are you excited? You have no idea. It sounds like they actually kind of brought you in on the process while they were making this movie appreciated, my creativity. They asked know they asked me for advice along the way, I say on on some of the some of the production meetings. I wrote this book sitting at my kitchen table from four in the morning until seven thirty every day for a year. Right. And there were times in these movie meetings. When I finally. Thirty five of the most creative people I've ever met in my life. And all of these people are throwing out a on how to make my story better. And I'm thinking if I had these guys kitchen table when I was writing this. I would the Pulitzer prize yet, they let me be involved as much or as little as I wanted a and went to some filming. I it's a little boring for me. Really my thing. I didn't do a meeting, you know, Hoskins a Chris, Lloyd. The movie in England. And of course, that was a lot of. One. And yeah, the value seem to Bill you, my creativity and the. I I was happy about that. While the movie is going on are you still continuing to write because that's a long time between when you publish and when this movie actually premieres I felt that. The Roger rabbit book was going to be a one off. Spoiler alert here, you know, in the book are ever dies. And of course, Disney changes oriented, people always say to me, are you? Are you upset the Disney story, and I say, no because the book is the best possible book that I knew how to write and the movie is the best possible representation of that walk the movies and movie in the books of book. They kept the premise that kept the main character and a change the story. And I have no problem that because as I'm saying, I didn't think he could fill the book. Anyway during that period. I did right. But I wasn't writing Roger rabbit stuff. Who is ready more short stories on? I was thinking about what I could do for another in a hard science fiction novel when the movie came out, it was such a success started getting requests for a sequel sequel novel so Edel because because. The rabbit had died in the book. I was I had been writing another book that was based in Toontown, but without the rabbit, and then when the movie came out and was such a huge success approved that people said to you about a sequel, well that then becomes a creative problem because maybe three people at read the book and most of them were related to me. My mother my aunts. You know, but. Fifty million people had seen the movie so to the majority of the world, the Disney version of Roger rabbit is dry rabbit and a head to decide. Do I want to go? I wanna maintain that kind of dark moody atmosphere of the book or the happier. Jovial atmosphere of the movie, and I came up on kind of a hybrid that that works pretty well. I love the word blooms I continue using those the the story is still dark in the sequel novel and still still brooding. Eddie valiant is two million. I think it's more palatable to people who have seen the movie who've never read the book and later did a her novel who act Roger rabbit or a back to the original. And the third novel is much more. Like, the original than the second novel was shoe. Very moody very dark, and the the the characters are much more later than they were in the second second novel, but published a second novel, the who plug drudgery evid in nineteen Ninety-one, and that got a lot of a lot of good reviews. Did really well. Disney bought the film rights to it. Then I would often did a whole bunch of other stuff science fiction novels wrote a novel coal space vulture with my best friend from forever. I mean, we were babies together. And he later became the archbishop Catholic archbishop of New Jersey of we always shared a mutual science fiction. So we collaborate on a science fiction novel, call space full here, then couple of years ago, a who's ready version ice fiction novel when I across basically almost complete to town novel that I forgot about. Writers. Yeah. And took a look at it. And it was pretty good. I had done it about the time. I did the first novel. So it had to moodier the moodier feel to it that the first novel had, and I realized that I could take that. And and ensure Roger Jessica characters and make third Roger Evan home, which I did. But you mentioned that Disney bought the rights for the sequel I've read over the years, I mean because the first movie came on eight so it's been thirty years this year. I've read a lot of stories about there being a sequel, but it's never come to fruition. So how close if they got in the past come pretty close. It's more politics than anything else. Everybody wants to everybody wants to see the first movie. I still did the accounting the first movie is gross. Nearly a billion dollars as be with a billion the rule of thumb is that a sequel will generally make three quarter. Here's what the original made. So seven hundred fifty million is not chump change. Everybody wanted it. But kind of politics just conspired against it. Jeff Katzenberg who was the champion of of Roger left. Disney of acrimoniously after an argument with Michael Eisner. He would over started a company was Spielberg Steve Spielberg controls part of the production rights to Roger part of steel. So he's not about to do something for Disney gonna make his partner on eating Disney a lot of money. So that happened in the Pixar came into the picture. The Pixar guys took over Disney. They sort of want to do mostly CGI stuff, and they seem to want to use the real characters. They don't seem that interested in the old classic Disney characters. Even Mickey Mouse there were times. When all the omen seem to be imply Stephen came back, and we had a had a Bangalore at Disney law. Bob, some meccas was in good graces with Disney. Italy enemy Shen department going there. Marshall, Kathleen Turner had come back and in a contract with Disney, and they were the producers, of course, when the first Roger movie, and it should be, you know, we wanna produce second Roger rabbit movie in everything Don Hahn, the original line producer came back and everything seemed to be in line. But then it just kind of fell apart with the Pixar deal and roller coaster goes up. It goes down, you know, right now, it's kind of somewhere in the middle. I can't predict what have you been working on lately, I've got a twelve episode animated TV series that I've done called two-tone hardboiled and it set in a jazz club in Toontown on and that will be showing sometime next year, I'm working lift a producer to produce either a TV series or a movie that will then become a TV series based on my sense fiction novel space vulture written a bunch of other science fiction. Levels late great show typical day and got a bunch of movies in the works. I'll give you a little tickle here that will be of greed interest. Reggie rather fans. But I can't talk about them because the details are still being worked out, but could be good stuff because I do keep busy, and I've got one other novel that I'm working on different from to towns Toontown, they'd is is unique its own way. As to was is good for me and bad for me is good for me because it's mind blowing -ly creative, and they just love working on it. But it's like to town in order to write Toontown kind of had to go to town every day and live there and talk about what I saw. And it was it was draining physically physically, mentally graining and took a lot of time. And this novel is the same. It is very. Draining physically mentally for me. So Morgan through it, but but working on it for a year. And I'm guessing maybe another year and a half before finish it, but it's gonna be a disconnect hunger. So it's the best place for people to keep up with you your website. Yeah. WWW Gary wolf dot com. And the best way to follow me on Facebook, follow me a Facebook because I published I post on Facebook almost every day, and do, you know weird stuff about Roger Jessica post a lot of pictures of Roger Jessica cost players and just things that kinda tickled my fancy. Yeah. Mr Wolf, thank you so much for your time. This has been fantastic. You gotta call me, Mr.. Wolf MC father? All right. We're back and we're talking about who framed Roger rabbit. So did either guys get a chance to read who censored Roger rabbit? I did not. But I kind of want to it is a phenomenal book. I really enjoyed it. And I didn't think I was going to enjoy it nearly as much as I did it's very different from who framed Roger rabbit to the where Roger rabbit dies early on in the proceedings who killed Roger rabbit. Yeah. This is a murder mystery of who killed Roger rabbit, and it is really good in that way. And the characters are not cartoons comics. So everything that they say is a word balloon if it feels very much like a movie that we did last year who wants to kill Jesse where like you would not be able to read what? A character saying if they're standing at a ninety degree angle from you that you have to move around or take their word bubble and move it to use it can actually read what their say. And as they produce word bubbles the other world word bubbles will fall to the ground. So you can see like the whole conversation of what they've said, which is pretty terrific. And yet the there's a fake Roger rabbit like they can conjure up d'appel ganger, basically, and they will. The use them as stunt people because tunes condign this without the dip. And there's no judge doom character whatsoever. But yeah, it is a really good book the sequel isn't so good like Gary wolf a saying in the interview it is a sequel to the movie not to his own book. But then I need to read the third one because I think that comes back to the characters being cartoons again comics again rather than cartoons. And it's interesting because they'll have these characters, and they might be three dimensional. They might not be like Perot of the Rapa. They'll they'll pose. And then a photographer will take a picture and that becomes the comic strip. So we are not even talking about cartoons whatsoever in this. It's all comics these reverence paraly-, the Rapa, I think about of the Rapa every day of my life. I know I gotta believe. My question is since you did read it, and I have not I, but when we did a podcast on this. I told myself I'm gonna read it, and I never got around to reading it. Does it satiate the need for perspective? Yours like myself. Who are like I wish the film was darker. I think it does and really hold to the murder mystery hard-boiled stuff a lot more in there, isn't the lunacy and Roger rabbit. He's a frustrated character in you don't necessarily know if you can trust him or not there are times where he will outright omit things a lie to the valiant character. And any valiant is not his brother did not die from a tune. He is the only one who will work with tunes rather than some of the other people that are out there. And he's got a tune on the police force who's one of these humanoid tunes and really. Does not like Eddie. What's whatsoever? So it's very interesting the politics, there it mixes together. Really? Well, interesting. Yeah. Because that was what I assumed watching this film that the inclusion of Spielberg inclusion of Domecq is the inclusion of it being underwent a vista and Amblin injected a certain level of childlike wonderment into the film that was not there with the source material, which is perfectly fine. Because again, this film if you've got Mickey and Minnie and Bugs Bunny. It's not gonna be the book. It just can't be and by having in that universe where bugs and Mickey exists. They got the film made. I'm not sure the film would have gotten made if it hadn't included those characters or just if they had had a whole bunch of knockoffs were just like, oh, well that is Mickey Mouse. But it looks like, you know, it's Mortimer mouth. Or something like that. Or that is this guy, you know, it's like having, you know, Pierce Patchett looked kind of like, Walt Disney like those kind of things the thing. That is good also about wolf's book is that it gives you this world paints a picture, and it doesn't ever make you question, or at least I didn't question like the logistics of everything like we've already had a conversation in here about are there guys who go to Toontown for sex. That's like one of the things that I not that particular question, but there are questions when you watch who framed Roger rabbit. It makes sense that the tunes are all kind of contained in that ghetto. And that they're all there for the stuff. But it almost makes me wonder like are there tunes like in New York City in France in here over there? And it's also some of the questions that came up when I watched the happy time murders is that something about the movie makes me question the reality so much. Much that I get distracted. And I can't even really pay attention to what's going on in the happy time murders because I just keep thinking will why are these puppets homeless? Why is this puppet of murderer? You know, what happens when you get a kidney transfer from puppet is that just the ball of yard. There's so many questions that I can't really concentrate on the actual stuff that's going on in the movie happy time murders is a mean-spirited who framed Roger rabbit, but not in a bad way. I actually enjoyed it a lot more than I seemed. I was going to mean having heard everything last year when it came out that it was not funny. It's awful it. It's you know, it's a it's a pox upon the Henson brand should never make another adult film. I couldn't disagree more. It's it's weird. It's like you said, Mike, it's a film without rules in a way it like makes you question the rules more than them giving you kind of deal like who framed Roger rabbit where it's like they are tunes. They live in a ghetto. There you go. Oh, I kind of liked that about the happy time murders that they kind of play fast and loose with everything. But it's not who framed Roger rabbit in any stretch of the imagination. It's just kind of this really mean spirited comedy. That also has a little bit of the Nawar thing to it. I really really disliked this movie. I felt like it wasn't. Really funny at all. I felt like I was watching something on USA. But not it wasn't even fun enough to be on up all night. It was just like at seven pm. I felt like a lot of the jokes were staying the obvious mean thing or doing the obvious gross thing and really looking for any other options. And I I laughed at the two parts that I thought were really funny were if you made it this spoilers I loved the scene where they send in little bitty ankle biter dogs to tear puppet, apart and love the scene where they find a dead puppet body under the boardwalk, and they asked people to turn away because it's going to be gross. And then they ring it out. I legitimately laughed at those. I thought they were great. But other than that. I felt like the just went for low hanging fruit. Like, silly string comb, boy, those are three words. I never thought I'd hear together in a sentence yet twenty nineteen here. We are it look it's like that national anthems vacation reboot three make things sequel that they made its mean-spirited. And honestly, it's it is like you said excellence, it's completely low hanging fruit. But at the same time for me like, hey, it's an entertaining diversion for an hour and a half. But I'm never gonna watch it again. It was kind of cool to see puppets doing things that puppets have not done in a Hinson movie. Yes. Meet the feebles exists. I know that. But this is a Henson film like they were one step away from the disappointment that I hadn't happy time murders was the thing that I appreciate it about Hoover Rodriguez. They never mentioned the Muppets or Sesame Street in happy timers, but they mentioned goofy. And Mickey and all that in who Roger rabbit, and I I don't I'm assuming it's a tarnish -ment of the brand thing. Now, I mean Sesame Street what they wanted to soothe the happy time murders production because like dishes in Sesame Street. No sesame on this street or something to that effect. And I it might have played better if they had actually tried to root it in a universe where those things exist as opposed to just pretending like none of that ever happened. Well, I believe Jim Henson really wanted to do something more adult, and I don't think he would have been as gone about it as this. But it would have been interesting if he would have gotten his chance to what he would have come up with Disney owns the Muppets, and the children's television workshop got all of the the Sesame Street Muppets. I think he tried to keep them separate. So I'm guessing they didn't feel like playing nice. Yeah. I think you're right. And yeah, it was mostly just the poster that people are going on about. But it's funny because the problem that I have with the happy time murders is the same problem that I have. Have with almost every Melissa McCarthy movie that I've ever seen which is the riffing and the whole idea of hey, either feed her or she'll come up with a bunch of funny lines. And then we'll keep too many of them. And it's like, where's the good scrip writing? I wanna see the script for this. I know is out on the blacklist back in two thousand eight so ten years before the movie find they actually came out who makes us decision of lending Melissa McCarthy just riff, and it really bothers me, and it kind of infects the whole rest of the movie, it feels like are probably scenes with the puppeteers to where they're like just go for it and come up with funny lines, and we'll keep some of them. And eventually we'll keep too many of them, and we'll just drag these jokes into the ground who is the one leading Melissa McCarthy, we have Paul fees that to that goes busters 2016 movie. The like the cut of it. That's like five hours long because all it is is just them riffing for. Five our thoughts. So not good. It is just not good have nothing against women in comedy. There are plenty of women. That are hilarious comedians. Melissa McCarthy is not what she can be keys. Not. She's not very funny. She can't be. But her overwhelming body of work would point in the opposite direction of her being funny. I would kind of agreeing with you kind of not I feel like when you see your on certain at live more of those hit than miss. I think it's because it's shorter. She can't just go off and all those tangents if somebody that they're editing reading that can just say, no, I bet you'd be a lot funnier. And turn in something more. I mean, look bridesmaids she played a bit part in that movie, and that movie as much as I'm not a huge fan of Paul the's movies. Not bad those up at all. And she got nominated for an Oscar for that movie. Don't forget that which I don't know how that happened. But she's not bad in that movie. I think Melissa McCarthy is like you said axel. She's good in small doses. Which would be the SNL formula of like we've got this little five seven minutes skit, let's do this. But when it's like a whole movie, and it's just like her dropping f bombs and saying, you know, riffing, it's not great. They're actors like this needs someone who who gets exactly when to tell her. Yes. And went to tell her no Kristen wig is one of those actresses or they just need a good editor in the editing room or a better script, and you say you whole to this fucking script in no Edmund step riffing. This isn't the rift fest sub wasting people's time by sitting and doing the same scene thirty times in coming up with more increasingly ridiculous things to come up with. You don't have to prove to us that you're funny. We know that you're you're you got here. You're in the point. Oh, one percent of people that are making the money in Hollywood that you're making. We know that you must have some kind of talent. Hey, that's why bought a ticket, man. That's why rented the DVD, you know. I know you're funny. So let me see you be funny rather than try to be funny, and maybe hit it. But most of the time miss something meandering around the comedy. Can I bring up just for a little bit? Because I want to meet the feebles feel free. It's been a while since I've seen it. But I remember liking it quite a bit, and it is super rude. But in a great way meet the feebles directed by Oscar winner Peter Jackson that makes me smile. Is the story of puppet show? And what goes on behind the scenes kind of is basically the Muppets? The I I saw it. I thought it was pretty clever and the second time I saw it. I realized that I have kind of a deep seated fear of Muppets and really brought it out because this is the most horribly mean hateful behavior that Muppets can do. And I don't know why it works as well. As it does for me. But meet the feebles makes me laugh at the same time as it makes me kinda kinda wanna shut it off. And I love it for that. Don't forget Peter Jackson mentioned meet the feebles in his Oscar acceptance speech, but meet the feebles. Yeah. It's it is the film happy timers wishes. It was but like no mainstream studio would make me feels it's so mean spirited, and I like that again with meet the feebles, I'm not questioning the rules. I don't care what happens outside of that theater. Like, we see people come in from the outside. I don't care what the outside world looks like I'm just. Concerned about what's in the what's happening on this film in again, happy time murders, just like, okay? Well, this is Los Angeles with what's going on in Burbank. What's going on in San Francisco? What's going on all over the world? I wanna know like are their French puppets, outed puppets begin. When did they come from? It's that bright syndrome. We're just like you're trying to create this world. You're giving us enough information to make me question. What the fuck is really going on here. God. Pucks upon the books Bundy sorry to bring up Beck's land on the show is he like Candyman if you mentioned his name three times, he pops up behind you. We've cut you in half with a helicopter blade while carrying Vietnamese hired actors. I think the world is a better place. If max Landis gets mentioned, less and less and makes less hashtag me movies to try to save his image will take image one of the things that I joked around with with Chris before we started recording was, hey, why don't we just go out to the Roger rabbit trivia page on MTV and read every item. There's a lot of apocryphal stuff about who framed Roger rabbit, and one of those that I found is that I brought up China tone earlier to the point even while I was watching the film that there's some similarities between the car that just got rabid drives and the car that Evelyn Malraux drives in Chinatown. But some people have put out this idea that there's going to be a third Chinatown movie, and it was going to be called cloverleaf. Ooh, just like the company in who framed Roger rabbit now. I don't know where. Came from. And I even found an interview with Robert town who wrote both the two Jakes and Chinatown, and he said, no, I don't know where the title cloverleaf came from this. He's talking about the third installment of this series. It was actually supposed to be called giddy versus giddy took place in nineteen sixty eight and was about the aero when no fault divorce had become legal in California. So nothing to do with the dismantling of the public transportation system. Again. I don't know how much stock. I put a Robert town. But he is the guy that wrote these movies, so yeah. So I'm just saying be careful before you make your next YouTube video of ten things, you definitely didn't know about Roger rabbit because we are way too superior than you are in check your facts, please, I drop so automatically. Are you guys gonna be rushing out to see who framed Roger rabbit again soon or what what what's your take on? The movie does it ultimately fail or succeed. Who framed Roger rabbit is one of those films that I watch every couple years. I don't watch it every year. But I watch it probably every two years, and I watch it. I enjoy it. And then I don't forget about it. But I don't think about it. And that's not an indication or condemnation of the quality of the film. It's just it's a film. That's good. It's fun. It's interesting. It has an age, particularly well, there's some fun bits contained within. But it's like a Snickers bar oven of a film. It's fun for a while it satisfies the need for something to have on the background or something that's kind of fun but not over the top. But also somewhat serious. And then ultimately you forget about it. And you move on. And you go watch something else that will satisfy you more so than framed Roger rabbit. It's a fun movie. Bob, Hoskins is great. No one's gonna question that it has one of the better film. Villains of all time. I would contend that. Judge doom is a fantastic film villain. But yeah, I mean, it's a film that I've seen you know, probably dozen times, and I'll watch it again in two years, and I'll think the same thing. I don't think that it's I don't think that talking about it critically has tarnished my enjoyment of it. But yeah, it's a film that watching it now, you know, twenty nine as opposed to twenty seven as opposed to twenty. It's a film that it's it's it's a fun movie. But that's kind of it it definitely I think it's one of those films that it's legitimate great film thing the kinda botched with the family depending on their age. I don't even see it. Again. I'm glad I saw it. But I'm not gonna keep reminding it for more levels. I think it was good for what it was. Because we'd be surprised that much like the Grinch. My heart has grown three sizes this day. I actually the last time I watched this. I. I finally found stuff to enjoy it. Because the first time I did not like it thinking about it. Again, you know years later, I was just like that movie is horrible. It's don't good. And then even when I tried to rewatch it again, just a couple months ago. I just found it really super shrill. And I think it was around the time of Benny the cab seen I was just like this is too much. I'm really just not enjoying this. I ended up turning it off. But I watched it again over the weekend, and I actually found some things to enjoy with it. And so I don't hate this movie and actually some things to laugh at and I agree with your assessment as far as the acting in this movie, very very good, Charles Fleischer. I really like what he's doing. And hear the voice does get to me after while. But it is perfect for who the character isn't what the character is. And yes because for Loyd just absolutely knocks it out of the park as far as being one of the great screen villains. And one. Thing. I do want to point out if anyone goes to Disneyland. They actually still have the who framed Roger rabbit ride there, which I find hind of bazaar in a way. I I'm not sure they might be. They probably will end to bulldozing Mickey's Toontown where you can go me Mickey and all the characters are kind of in you, go, wait lines to make them as opposed to running up to them, grabbing by the arm and say, I want to get my picture with you and my kid, but there's a who framed Roger rabbit ride, which in my mind means that Disney hasn't fully abandoned this property, which I find bizarre considering how in this day and age Disney is this multifaceted company that it was not in nineteen eighty eight. I was hearing for years and years there's going to be a sequel to this. And then finally tracking down a couple of versions of what the sequel would be it was actually going to be a prequel the title that was bandied about that. I saw. Well, I saw two different things. One was the toon patrol. I think it was which isn't that the name of what the weasels drive thought? So there's the toon patrol. And then there's another one that was called who discovered Roger rabbit, and I didn't make it all the way through discovered Roger rabbit, but within the first five pages, it started to repeat a lot of the same scenes from the toon patrol script. It was written a year later, and I think it was just basically a rewrite of it the toon patrol with have basically been like two things jammed together. One of them. Surprisingly enough was the jerk because it starts off with Roger rabbit turning eighteen and his parents tell him that he's not a real person that he is a tune. So totally reminded me of Naven Johnson. When he learns that he's white. It's your birthday, and it's time you knew Naven national phone channel. You were left on our doorstep. But we rented you let you one of us. Good of status color. And then he tries to hitchhike across the country and go to Hollywood. How far are you going? Are you going to the end of this? Okay. And he meets his character name, Richie and Richie's afraid to fly. So it's kind of the same thing. He actually runs into Eddie valiant at one point, which is kind of know little not kind of thing. And then the movie suddenly takes us weird turn and becomes a World War Two movie. I told you that we're gonna talk about World War Two in. Here we go it becomes World War Two and they end up sending cartoon characters in to fight World War Two. They don't want kill killing though, which is very odd or kind of wholesome depending on how you want to go about it. But so they all end up getting rounded up and put into a special camp not concentration camp because this is the good guys as the Americans they only put people in concentration camps. They put these cartoons in this concentration camp and Ritchie. The human is there because he doesn't wanna fly doesn't want. You know, he's afraid of heights and all this kind of stuff. So they put him in there too. With all these rejects he, and I can't remember the name of the turtle the one that Bugs Bunny races against who does that whole like. Yup. That guy him and Blackie the cat from the Tex Avery cartoons those to Roger and Ritchie escaped from the camp. And they go to rescue. Jessica who at this point is like a very nice girl, the very plain looking and then at one point she finally dresses up like just rabbit, and they're just like oh holy shit. She actually cleaned up. Really, well, where they go to rescue her in this other girl, Wendy from not Peter pans, Wendy from a very dastardly Nazi agent who was pretending to run a relation the US. And they have Jessica she's sending out these messages like an access version of Tokyo rose the guy who ran the radio station it meanwhile, plotting on sending a rocket to Malta and killing FDR Stalin and Churchill so. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. And then of course, the black cat has superpower is that if he walks in front of anybody. Thirty something falls on them. Which is what am I favor Tex Avery cartoons? Dog trouble. What do you say? Okay. That's great. No. Just put paid like days. They go day gets bed luck. And if you haven't eat me. Yes, whistle. But yeah, it's absolutely nuts. And then eventually all the cartoon show up and begin to murder all these Nazis. So it's a great story. I'm very surprised if I didn't make this movie because to me it was actually fairly entertaining weird. But entertaining that also sound horrifying you wanted to know the rules in this universe. Here you go you can murder people as long as they're only Nazis. I'm just picturing peg leg Pete from the Mickey Mouse cartoons with just this bloodthirsty grin and a baseball bat like the bear Jew front glorious bastards closing in on somebody imagining Mickey Mouse with the helmet cut out with his spot for his ears. Oh, that's door will until you realize that he's pulling a pin on a grenade stuff. I get into a Nazis mouth and going. And then smashing it down their throat. Yeah. It's real funny until Mickey Mouse starts blowing people up the whole idea going back to town the whole idea of walking into a room and everything is anthropomorphic that kind of scary the bear in the room on. This is the cartoons are terrifying. If you start to think about them actually being around you. Sure. Right. The chair that you're sitting on right now could end up talking to you. And it's just like that's kind of freaking me out. Thank you, Jerry sort of you. You will always do. I might say the same of you cherry been teasing a lot lately. And I want you to know him. Sorry, hearing sit on another thing that we didn't talk about. And I don't know if this is pertinent or not, but the scene with Jessica rabbit, where she falls out of Benedict cab that the animators I thought I think they probably thought they were a little cheeky. So they were like, maybe should we should give Jessica rabbit of giant. Well, I hear different stories about that too. As far as oh, that's just your dirty mind going in that she was wearing underwear. So do I I'm sure that there's a screen cap of whatever that's supposed to be out there. But the thing is I don't have a laser player. So I can't we can't confirm or deny it. I just pictured crisp buzzing his old VHS copy and running up with a dry race. Mark. Ker and like adding it in back into the left. It's right here back it up. And here it is or the scene where baby Herman goes underneath a woman's dress and comes back with some drool on his face. But you know, that one's a little bit more salacious which again, I'm perfectly fine with in the scheme of this movie because it does need to have that mix. Like, we talked about before the scene in the script of just rabbit singing at the club is interesting because the guide went here. I think the guys are both human and cartoon even those weird because in the club in the movie, it is a strictly human like cartoons can only be behind the bar serving people or you know, up on stage kind of thing that cannot be patrons. But in the script, the people in the cartoon characters watching her are acting like the wolf from the red riding hood, a little red riding hood cartoon. Where it's like, you know, you become flat as a board or you whistling or all those kind of crazy things that wolf is doing that Tex Avery cartoon. So yeah, that's kind of a straight. And we don't think about that. Right. One more movie. We don't realize that the cartoons are only serving humans and that only humans are the ones allowed to drink and have a good time. One other thing that I wanted to bring up as that. I don't know if you guys remember this. But it was a thing for a while. Where they were putting out. Disney was putting out cartoons of Roger rabbit in front of other movies like dick, Tracy. Yeah. Which is funny because a lot of this reminds me of dick Tracy at times, the whole, you know, nineteen forties throwback kind of thing. That was in full swing in late Ailey eight late eighties early nineties was it not desert suit revival. You got film like racketeer? You have the mask films like that were bringing back that like forties, Zoot suit thing, even Batman when you think about it. But yeah, they were trying real hard to make that a thing. And finally, they said this is a thing. It's not going to happen. So they quit doing it. But yeah, they had three cartoons in front of three different movies actually more than that. Depending on where you are at apparently, and then on different VHS tapes in the outta yada, yada. But I only remember roller coaster rabbit because it was of dick Tracy said, hey, Pachuco knock it off. All right, guys. We're gonna take. Into the break and play a preview for next week show. Make this count Carew. Mar I it's show guys for tips. Two hundred bucks enough. Never trust them for. Hold on the Sherpao. Somebody got under performing very. I kill for lot. It was born June. Sixth nineteen sixty six. Person to the Chinese. We walk up side down. Katrin? I have watched Filbert. Chinese object to holding contains the story of your life. An attached divine has entrusted to you. You're not leaving this place until you've told me everything, I wanna know. In a flash. The word. But if you got in mind. I'm not sure fits makes any sense. You scream I swear to God, I'm going to stick with this thing right down in the gutter familiar with aids. The police, but I saw. Touch. A cat. That's right. We'll be back next week with a look at Sergio Martinez bat shit insane American tiger. If you want to watch that beforehand, check out the shitty VHS transfer over on Amazon prime until then I want this week's co host excellent. Chris axel. What is the latest with you, sir? I am still working on my own podcast, which is super true stories, my friend, Dave, and I watched the worst oddest most controversial documentaries. We can find for free. And we critique them we make fun of them figure out. What exactly we're supposed to believe? And I believe in our next episode. We're going back into Bigfoot territory, which Bigfoot documentaries have a lot unpack their kind of amazing aren't they they make me ask questions, but I wasn't as concerned about the big foot hunters as I was concerned about the people who were hunting mushrooms. In a short. We watched the mushroom hunter people seemed frightening in the way that number lecture might help you analyze their behavior. And Chris what is happening with you, sir. Still doing the culture cast over culture cast dot com. Eric, and I talk about movies twice a week. Some time to talk about new stuff. Sometimes we tread the cinema path less trodden with some interesting stuff. Sometimes it's a little mainstream. Sometimes it's not you have to go. Check that out over at culture cast dot com. I'll do a podcast with you might call the culture tapes, where we talk about coal check once a month that we've been doing that for oh God going on like two years now and also you and I started up another podcast with a good friend of ours. Father Malone where we talk about twilight zone nine hundred eighty five and we kind of looked into that one with the show rebooting earlier this month. We are sure to get one of listeners tuning in. I'm the ones I'm the ones where we appreciate you listening. To us axel. Thank you. Thanks guys for being on the show. And thanks everybody. For listening police over to the website projection booth podcast dot com, or you can find out more about today's episode also find links to itunes Rican written review, the show into patron where can make a donation to the show donors get early access to every episode as long as I'm not running late every donation every rating we get helps the projection booth take over the world. Can even. The. If you enjoy this show in what more people to know about it head on over to I tunes leave comment and rated five stars. Make sure you like insurance on Facebook. And don't forget to follow us on Twitter. Just search for Christopher media. Thank you advance for supporting Chris for media by clicking on the pay pal by hand by clicking through to all the sponsors who support Christopher media dot net. Most importantly, we'd like to take the time to extend an extra special. Thanks to you quit for media could not exist without your support. Thank you for visiting Christopher media dot net. 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