Behind the Scenes Look at How Money Experts Invest Their Money | Brian Portnoy
Raise your hand if you like snooping on other people as much as i do nothing malicious of course but there's something about having a behind the scenes look at people's lives that is exciting and when it comes to investing who wouldn't want to know how others invest their money. Brian important i- behavioral finance expert and co editor of the book. How i invest money will take us on a little snooping adventure in this episode to look at how others invest their money. You're listening to millennial money with award winning money expert and serial entrepreneur. Shana come to game where we flipped the script on the old school approach to everything. Your parents never taught you about money each week. Shana creates a safe space by talking with special guests from around the world about money wellness entrepreneurship. Traveling like a boss. And what makes millennials tick. Stories trail-blazing perspectives tips tricks. And everything there is to know about money. Find it all here. is you. Cover your money story and unlocked the light. You wanna live pretty cool right here. Shana money expert. Indiana hoosier and burger aficionado. It is so good to have you here. And i have to admit a little something i i like to snoop may favorite thing to do is gonna walk at night and look in houses to see how people live. Don't don't let your mind go racing. This is really an innocent. I promise guilty pleasure done completely a pg manner. But i have this feeling. I'm i'm not alone on this one. There's something about looking at other people's lives. It's the premise behind. Why we use social media right or or are what do we call it addiction right right our addiction to social media and since we don't openly talk about money it's difficult to know where other people truly stand so if we're gonna talk about investing the number one question you always ask me over and over and over again is how should i invest my money. What funds in real estate shy by crypto currency. What about gold and silver. You name it will the book. How invest my money was porn from a blog post by jocelyn brown at his the reformed broker blog answering that very question that so many other people wanted to know in this blog post went viral and joshua bryant teamed up to pull together twenty five chapters from money experts talking about how they invest so by the end of this episode. You'll learn about brian's investment journey and you're here tons of other interesting takeaways from this very insightful buck so let's get into it. We're here to talk about a lot of different things but in particular your new book How i invest my money. Which is this really cool collection of a short essays from experts who were in the money field who have devoted their careers to helping other people with their money. And i know this all came Inspired by a blog post by joshua. Brown your your co editor The push was called how i invest my money and it really went viral. And i think it's an interesting idea because so many people wanna know. How do the money people actually do money. And what trips them up. So i thought we just start with you. Know why do you think this blog post Really went viral. And why is this book ultimately resonating with people will. The easy answer is that everyone's pretty nosey and everyone likes to know what everybody else is up to. You know you know as well as anyone. The money is a an emotional lightning. Rod issues of status envy and curiosity and anxiety are kind of just wrapped up with it. So you know when there's the opportunity to kind of see hear what other people are doing. And you know including so-called experts who have devoted their careers to being financial advisers portfolio managers I think it. It raises eyebrows. So yet josh a blog post mid twenty nineteen was Very well received in you know he and i right after that talked about maybe getting together. A group of friends and peers to you. Know for a collective group of essays. Yeah i love it. I think it's interesting idea. And if you let me indulge for just a moment you talk about the emotions around money which is something. I really wanted to dive into. I talk a lot about mindset and your money story and how that how that basically impacts you know the decisions that you make about money and your essay. I'd love to read the first two paragraphs because i feel like a lot of people can relate. You said my parents fought about money all the time. It's not that they were lacking my dad made good money. My mom was good at spending it. They didn't seem to like each other for many reasons and money served as language of conflict and currency of control following the divorce issues of alimony and child support extended the unpleasant trees for decades fast forward to recent times. I'm sometimes asked what i learned from my parents about money. The short answer is nothing which i love Longer harsher answer is that money is a tool to buy things into hurt others in that it really impacted me. Those words and i think so many people can can relate to that. You know how we balance this relationship with money this this tool that you say to buy things but then also it's used her people like how do we rationalize that out. I think before we rationalize that we we have to man where where to start. I mean i first of all the you know the the the the brain is hard wired to make terrible decisions on all things money like the. The brain is wired to survive and thrive in difficult times and so money life which is really complicated in noisy as a subset of this really big world we live in. It's it's overwhelming. So i i i speak to lots of crowds Work with lots of clients. And i really liked to actually stay away from the word irrational. Just say that we're normal. And that were human. And i do think. There's an element of validation That happens when you know people like you and me who kind of have some paperwork and some maybe some credibility in the world of financial decision. Making you know we can say to others. It's okay to find this scary. It's okay to acknowledge that there's a lot of anxiety around it because know the old school definition of money from seventh grade unit of accounts store of value means of exchange like. that's nonsense. You know what money is is sort of one of the most primary ways in which we relate to other human beings it's arguably the most important form of trust that exists among all humans. Because you and i can fly halfway around the world and if we have the right color piece of we can exchange it with a complete stranger who give us what we want so it really sits at the at the root of kind of our social relations and it's no surprise that there's a whole stack of emotions some of them. Good hope aspiration You know positive stuff alongside you know some of the some of the more negative stuff but you can't you can't have the the good stuff without the bad. Yeah i like that explanation ally lot and i think that's obviously where most people struggle and and i'm curious about your thoughts on this but you know i find especially since i started doing this podcast but i knew this this reality long before we don't talk about money with anybody and i think particularly when we're maybe just starting out in our twenties our thirties but heck it could be any age. We can feel like we're in this bubble or shell that only the mistakes we've made exist and nobody else can relate to that and so you know it's it's i'm always trying to figure out you know. How do we begin to develop this Language around money so it's okay to talk about all the good things but then it's also equally okay to talk about when things didn't go well or if you spent money on something that just didn't workout. I'm always curious about how we actually developed this language where it is okay to talk about these things. Yeah i think about this a lot to. There's that element of validation that i referenced. There's also an element of permission where you know you as a cfp me as somebody who you know has an investment background is now in a very wrapped up in the world of applied behavioral finance. Which is a fancy way of saying practical tools to make good money decisions It's important for us to you. Know say to others but also not not just lecture but to engage in conversations that you know Create a trusting environment where you can really talk about these things and maybe that could come across as a little bit dramatic but the fact is the money is the least popular topic. It's the most stressful topic that anybody has. You know you go to the american psychological association. They do polls all the time in one of the most stressful items in people's lives and money tends to rank at the top of the list every year above and beyond religion politics marriage. Divorce you name it. Wow that's crazy now so some yes. There's something's going on And it's been going on for a long time The world of social media is not happy. Did not not helping you know for the. I think at this point obvious reason that just everybody is in everybody else's business and so you know you can. You can see what's going on you can begin to. I don't know Observe things that might not be entirely true and one thing's for certain like it's relatively easy to see others assets it's almost impossible to see their liabilities. So you've got a whole world of people who were just fronting their assets but hiding their liabilities and so no one really knows what the heck's going on out there but we all then sort of extend the stories in ways that sometimes make feel worse. Yeah i so agree. And i think you're reading a lot of these essays. Obviously people talked a lot about their money story. And it's another topic. I try to talk about a lot on on this podcast. I'm curious you know. What are some ways that we can go about like if we've never thought about our money story or maybe how it's in acting us financially. What are some of the ways we can figure out like sort of. I guess unpack her unravel what that is and then how. That's maybe impacting good or not so good In our money decisions are or you know keeping us from goals whatever it might be yeah It's a really good question there so many different ways to to go with it I is to maybe the. I just sort of table setting in terms of what i call money like At least in the world that. I live in a lot and come from money. Investing in finance sort of go together A lot so you know sometimes when people like you and me talk about money you know others think we're talking about stocks and bonds and making a lot of money on tesla or bitcoin or or or stuff like that but in fact money life has numerous dimensions so not just investing but saving spending earning borrowing Giving in in the charitable sense. And so you know. I think what we can be doing is providing vocabulary concepts in mental models to people to at least help them make sense of the world of the first thing. We wanna do from a almost a sociolinguistics. Point of view is create the right categories for people to be thinking in so just pointing out that money life has all these different dimensions and with We know them like a known surprise. Saving in spending and borrowing are all part of it but like okay. Here's the playing field. Here's what's going on. And then from there you know we can begin to get into questions like straightforward stuff. What are your earliest memories with. Regard to to money was money. A source of a was it a a good or a bad topic in the home Did your parents seem to have the same philosophy toward the different elements of of money life. Like where were the struggles Where were the good parts. I mean there's a lot of different ways to go but just beginning to go back in time and think about you know if money among other things is kind of a culture or cultural habitat that you live in in one that's given to you not one that Not not one that you choose for the same reason. None of us choose you know the the broader environment in which were raised in develop but like what. What was that situation. And what did you observe I mean some people especially in the field of financial therapy. They go way down the path because people have had traumatic experiences. But even if we don't cross into that world you know we can ask people to think about the good bad and neutral in their memories of things that money were attached to. It's a new year and such a great time to make. Smart money moose. If getting life insurance on your to do list for twenty twenty one policy genius can help you cross it off with ease and you've probably listened to a few podcast episodes. 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It's nice to get it right. We haven't asked shawna in. this comes from. Emily and emily says hi. Shawna my husband. And i are moving to a smaller city in a different state for his new job. Where the cost of living is lower salaries tend to be lower in this location as well but thankfully my husband will aren't a similar salary. I will actually keep my salaries well since. I'm fortunate enough to continue working remotely and we currently pay somewhat average rent price for our area for a two bedroom. Twelve hundred square foot apartment in the suburbs about two thousand dollars a month. Were struggling with what to pay for rent in this new more affordable city. We certainly won't plan to pay the same amount even if we can tactically still afford it however having a nice apartment with some amenities makes me feel a bit better about the move overall and working from home indefinitely when we look at what we can save versus what luxuries we can afford. It's hard to strike a balance. Do we go for the cheapest apartment and make some sacrifices to save almost ten thousand dollars a year or do we treat ourselves to something a bit nicer. That still fits the dream apartment vibe without breaking the bank still saving a few thousand we recognize this as a pretty good problem to have but we just can't figure out how much we should strive to spend versus. Save looking forward to your wisdom. Thanks emily i mean come on. This is such a great problem to have. You are right on the money but this is also a dilemma. That so many people face. It's it sounds almost silly to talk about it in terms of dilemma. But this is really where money gets in that gray area right. You just aren't sure what option is better. And so it's about trying to figure out pros versus cons so honestly. I think you can't go wrong with this decision. Either way it all comes down to. I believe your values and how your decisions line up with those particular value so when i say values i mean what is important to you both like really really important to you. Both and i think it's okay to splurge from time to time since you're renting and not buying. If you were buying. I would say we really got a pin down what that is because spending more of her suspending less definitely has a quite profound difference but renting is a little bit different and i did this when i moved to the beach for a year and a half About sixty five years ago. Now i think i was like i wanna live by the beach and jeff and i weren't married yet and so i found this amazing apartment. It was in this really cool complex in long beach california and it was the best decision i ever made there were six different condos it faced. The ocean is an ocean view outside of my condo and we all became like family. I've never had an experience like that before and it was expensive and a luxury. I only lived there for about a year and a half but it was such an impactful decision. I would never take it back. I would never ever take it back in fact. That's actually where jeff. And i got married facing the ocean in this beautiful courtyard outside of our complex. So the moral of the story is sometimes it's okay to splurge but either way you're still going to save money. I think which is always a win. And i would just say you have a plan for those savings so it doesn't just sit in your bank account. We talk always about that black hole and bank account so even if you think you're going to save a couple of thousand dollars somehow just evaporates if we don't have a plan for that money so have a plan automatically withdraw. That money sent to different places so that you can really use that money in powerful ways but here a couple things to think about number one however you set up for your emergency fund where you at. Do you have at least a couple of months of fixed expenses saved or do you. Maybe need to be that up a little bit more. What are some of your money goals for this year. And where are you in in terms of those. I realized we just hit a new year. But burke sample if you want to try to indulge in a trip towards the end of the year provided we can all travel. Hopefully we can travel by the end of the year. And let's say that triple cost five thousand bucks. Were you in terms of saving for that. Also just think about your goals and think about where you are in terms of saving for those. I would say more immediate goals goals that you really want to hit in this year and then what does the next one to three years. Look like for you as as best as you can tell and would either decision deter those plans for the next one to three years. You mentioned your jobs. How steady are your jobs. You know what would happen if one of you did. End up losing job. Would you be okay if you were in that. Higher monthly rent just a little food for thought and lastly i think think about what you ideally do with that extra ten thousand dollars versus the few extra thousand dollars and if at the end of the day. It doesn't make that big of a difference but you really would rather live splurge and live in that. A little bit more indulgent place then. I don't think there's anything wrong with going forward if you thought about all of these questions right money. Decisions don't always have to be practical but they must align with your values and your goals and that is where you can't make a wrong decision if you're thinking about it that way so as long as the higher price place is getting in the way of you paying your bills and moving closer to your goals. Then i don't think it's a bad decision but again this is up to you really to spend some time thinking about this and let me know what you decide. I'm super curious just curious. How did you make your way into being really excited about the. You know the mindset feature around money. Yeah that started about ten years ago Going way back I did a doctorate in social sciences and so studied politics economics sociology in history in a lot of it was kind of around kind of capitalism. End the social institutions that that make for capitalism so. Stop boring you in. You're you're with now on that. But i thought that's a whole other podcast episodes but i thought pretty long and hard about like markets in society in the relationship between kind of individual aspiration and how that fits into society. So that's the background. I decided not to go into academic career. I ended up just being really interested in the markets And and worked for company morning star. You know oven some of your listeners. Do a based in chicago. Where where. I live doing investment research and you know Just kind of figuring out good investments in and writing about things like that in and around two thousand ten two thousand eleven Just almost by accident. I stumbled across the field of behavioral science in behavioral finance. So read a book called the art of choosing by by by sheena younger. The book literally changed my life emerges sort of one of those like from a movie or cartoon like that light bulb moment where i- reimagined investing less as a financial problem in more as a decision or choice problem and from there you know comments vergerski in thaler and really and so many others in you know here. I am ten years later. And i find this stuff as fascinating as ever have because there's so much to learn and when you map some of the new disciplines in neuro science and evolutionary psychology and and other fields into all of this you realize that when we're talking about money what we're actually talking about is what it means to be human and i can read and write and talk about all day. You and me both grab a coffee and have a very long conversation. Postcode post covid. My days will be filled with coffees with people. Like i look forward to those days What are the you talked about these. These four money buckets in your essay. That i really liked and i want to talk about one of the money buckets. Everybody else can have to pick up the book to read the other three but you talk about this idea of juicy cash which really caught my attention. I i'd love to know you know. Why is it juicy. Cash one of your four buckets. What what are the listeners. Need to know about having juicy cash you know. I use that term casually for a few years and i put it in my essay without really thinking much about it at a. It's probably what people pigmy about the the most. I mean the one hand. It sounds like a really bad like sweatpants fashion lineup up but So there's a prior. Let me answer your question but take a prior step. Which is that one thing. I pointed out my chapter but a pretty large percentage of other contributors alluded to is that they hold quote unquote too much cash. So you know. There are models that Tell you you know you should have. X. percentage stock in x. Y percents in bonzi percent in cash and the cash stake is never supposed to be very big because there's no on paper Or at least statistically Productive uses for that capital. You can earn that cash. You can earn a rate of return on people like me. We often have ten fifteen even twenty percent of our entire net worth in cash which is like really not good according to any traditional model. Because i could be getting you know. I could be making nowadays zero percents on my cash or one percents Because you know over you know we. We have the lowest interest rates in basically five hundred years so yes. Eight sabres are being punished in a way that they never have before But the reason. I hold catches their multiple reasons. One is My human capital financial capital are highly correlated meaning that i work in the markets generally defined so if markets go way down it also means that my job stability goes way down and if not my job then my you know my customers or potential employers so you know i cash up to have a more stable lifestyle and just like the feeling that with bad stuff My wife and kids are gonna be just fine for a period of time. So that's the context in which this juicy cash notion comes from and precisely because i hold too much cash or more cash than a sort of a rational economists would say is prudent I've looked far and wide for ways to make a little bit more on the cash. Because you know you could make a fraction of a percent or effectively zero in savings accounts Or or you can look elsewhere. And after very briefly you know have found some municipal bond investments that. I guess we could call the bond or fixed income. But they're very short term liquid. There's ver- just a spare you and your listeners. The details but very little credit risk despite the fact that it sounds like it sounds like there might be of both through the documentation. So i'm very comfortable putting a fair amount of cash in that strategy and so instead of earnings zero percents. I've make You know two to three percent Which might not sound like a lot. But you know. I'd rather make three percents on a thousand dollars. Zero rather have thirty buxton's zero bucks. I'll take thirty zero any days. I you know there's there's so much great information that each of these people share. Are there any other. You know essays or a really consistent money themes that emerged that Really stand out to you. Oh totally so One nice thing about the book. And i'm proud of it for a bunch of reasons but you know one is that i think it's really user friendly twenty five chapters. Each chapter. I think is more than five pages so you get these short vignettes from serious money. People and what josh. And i did at the outset of josh brown. Mike co editor was just you know. Go to the group of people you see on the list. And we said read re josh's blog. I had written my version of it re read my blog. And here's a blank piece of paper and you get fifteen hundred words to tell your money story. There is no direction. there was no nudge. Your hey you're an expert in this so you should talk about that in fact we told people. Don't this isn't a commercial. This isn't an opportunity for you to tell us about like how you invest other people's money this is how you invest your own money. And so what was remarkable was how disparate the chapters. Are you know. Some people don't even in a word mentioned anything about their investments They just talk about the life that they've lived in how money has been a source of both. You know joy and sadness and you know depending depending on the essay so one of the themes is that there was no theme. Everybody came back with the very personal story. If you read. Bob see rights chapter which is one of the earlier ones. He spent the entire time talking about a lake college in his family. That on paper would be terrible investment because it's fallen apart in can't be winterized and all this other stuff but it ends up being the place in his life for you know four generations of his family to spend time with. How does he invest. He invests in this house because it creates the life that he wants to live. So what. I think's ben official especially for people in their twenties and thirties and forties is to see the variety of life experiences. That people have. And we've already gotten a ton of great feedback on the project. And i was hoping this would be true in it. Is that everybody. I've talked to has found one or two chapters. That really spoke to where it's like. Oh she's just like me or oh he. He reminds me of this. Oh i didn't know you could do that. Like oh i do that too. Maybe i'm not crazy but whatever the experiences that we go back to validation permission than even empathy you can kind of find some fellow travelers and realize that money is value laden. And how we save spend invest borrow give Even the jobs that we choose to earn a living those are all just so closely wrapped up with are not just our values but our identity like who who we are and money to some extent becomes both an embodiment and expression of our identity. And that's a good thing if you understand that in I so agree. I one of the essays that really stood out me was Leeann migos she's actually. She's actually a personal friend of mine. And i know her story but i think what she rose really powerful and i don't want to spoil too much for anyone who's going to pick up the book but she talks about this idea of net worth not being self worth and that money for her even as an expert has never been a pleasant topic You know this is something. I've struggled with with myself and i know a lot of listeners. Have as well and we've kind of talked about this encircles but you know. What would you say to those listeners. Who are really stuck in that trap of you know. Maybe there got a lot of student. Loan dad or the network side of the hangs. Just doesn't look as great especially this year. Could be anyone as great as you know. You'd want it to be and that somehow they're they're tying that to you know i'm not worthy or whatever those those words might be you know. How do you separate those two. It's hard. I mean the first thing we need to acknowledge and embrace that it's really hard and sometimes it feels like we're failing but we're not alone. I'm really glad that you flagged liens chapter. Because it not supposed to play favorites. But it's really one of my favorites She and i had you know. I think pretty powerful exchange about it because she revealed a lot about herself and she said it was a bit of a transformative experience for her to put all of that. Not only on paper. But then put it out into the world I loved being able to get to know her little bit she. We've seen mutual friends. I didn't know her prior to the prior to the project Maybe i can answer the question constructively by saying that one thing that is consistent across mostly all of the contributors is that they have a semblance of a plan that doesn't mean they have sophisticated portfolios with fancy investments. It doesn't mean that you know they're doing some strange municipal bond strategy that i invest in for. Forget all of that. That's actually noise. The the the signal is that Having a plan is better than not having a plan and secondly there are lots of people in in a variety of ways. Who can help you along that journey. It could be a friend. It could be a financial adviser The financial advice business in the broadest possible sense and that ranges from you know stockbrokers on one hand to financial therapists on the other and a dozen different types in between There's a wonderful opportunity for people to find an expert of of some form who can help them understand. What is they're up against. And as you will as you allude to you know there is just some on the ground. Real world dollars and cents issues. You have too much student debt. it's over whelming. The interest is accumulating. What are you supposed to do. It's look it's hard. it's it's really hard but Precisely because going back to our original point money so hard to talk about. Were often scared. Embarrassed to ask for help. What i would say is ask for help. Fight find somebody or or a community or cohort. That understands where you're coming from and can to some extent help. Look if you owe a million dollars and you make twenty thousand dollars a year. I mean it's absurd example. You're kind of the path spot right like sometimes there's no avoiding the mass but for even for people who have sort of a normal difficult situation. There are often things that you can't and won't think about on your own. Yeah that's such great advice and You know there's so much in this book. Even that i walked away with you know again just to having people being able to share their stories you know. How can somebody who pickups the book reads the book you know. How can they figure out what is shared in the book and then figure out like maybe what to adopt in their lives. Like what do you. What do you want the readers to to translate into their own life. It's a good question. It referencing back to something instead a few minutes ago. It might be the case that when you go through these chapters and again it's twenty five five page chapters It this is not heavy lifting as you go through the book. And you find that wanted to the the the one or two contributors where you say author just like me or their story resonates with me. Push yourself hard to ask. Why why are they just like you. Why is this resonating. Is there something. 'cause everybody the the books pretty successful You know in in in the world in the narrow financial sets Which isn't to say that many people in the book have had like credit difficult upbringings. The person in the book. May i won't spoil it but the person the book who currently here at the end of twenty twenty is probably by far the wealthiest person somebody who has gargantuan sums of money currently he grew up homeless and partly homeless and lived in the back of a car for three years so He tells his story in a way. That's you know that that's powerful. But i guess find who resonates with you. Push yourself hard to ask why. And then see if there are lessons or pads or even a few breadcrumbs. You can follow to say okay. This is what they did or this is where they ended up. Even if they don't tell you how they ended up there. You might say. Aw i'm here there there. I want to get there. How did they do that. And to the extent that you can't sort of infer from the chapter that's when you reach out for help and say this person seems like they're like me and they ended up in a situation that i'd like to be in how make that happen and you know as well as anybody like. It's so hard to talk about this. But if you can find yourself in a cohort or community in advisory or coaching relationship where someone takes you and your problems seriously and condemn an straight both technical Competences well as empathy then. You're you're in a good spot like you're gonna be able to fight in. There's a good chance you're going to be able to win. I love that. I love that. We're going to be able to win well brian. This has been so fantastic. I feel like i could talk to you for hours and hours. Love you tell listeners where they can go to connect with you and also where they can go to pick up a copy of the book. How i invest my money. Yeah well unfortunately appears we only have one bookstore left it if you have a local bookstore. Please by through them But otherwise amazon is the place to go and for me. I guess the two places to track me down. One twitter actually financial twitter Notwithstanding all the bs on twitter finch wit is is a really warm and welcoming community where people share ideas and help each other out. So i'm at bryant portnoy just my whole name at brian portnoy and then I own and run a financial wellness. Platform called shaping wealth and so the website is shaping wealthed dot com. And that'll give a little bit of high level Information as to the programming technology that my team and i are building To help people achieve financial wellbeing and And if anyone wants to get in touch with me they could do that through you know through the website. I don't know about you. But i thought it was super exciting to hear behind the scenes. How other people invest their money. And i read how invest my money and i learned a lot from the bucket. It was just really exciting to read about other people sharing their money stories particularly finance experts. Because i think when you do that it's so powerful you realize how much we all are so much alike so definitely check out the book and pick up a copy and if you love this episode do me a favor. Share it with a friend share with a family member. Get them excited about investing and i will see you back here in a few days for a brand new episode thurday. Hey you yes you before you go. We want to say thanks for listening to this. Episode of millennial money for all the links tags and adds you've heard on today's episode. Check out the show notes or go to end money. Podcast dot com. You'll find more episodes to share with your friends while you're at it. Leave us a review. Make sure to subscribe wherever you listen so you don't miss out on all the money tips and tricks that will take you from a millennial regular to a millennial money expert. See you back here in a few days. A fresh new episode.