Burnout is Real Among Social Media Managers
You can't unburned burge toast because once burnout you're out. It's pretty much just kind of done. So really what we need to do is work together to prevent it and so this clearly obviously isn't just a museum social media manager problem. It's a wider social media. Eighty manager problems. Adam that's certainly true you can't You can't unburned toast and you can't unscramble an Omelet All of that is true. And why what breakfast food stay by the way media so breakfast themed show. This is a different kind of show this week on the social pros. PODCAST WE talked with Louis Burden McDevitt. who used to be the social media manager for almost a decade at the children's Museum of Indianapolis and she leads a giant facebook facebook group of Museum Socia- managers and and she's working a lot now on this idea of burnt out in the social media managers community in self care and no not not stressing yourself out to the degree that you're like enough? I gotta get out of the social media industry and it is. It is a real danger. You work with a lot of social. A social media manager is part of your job at salesforce. This is a real issue. And I'm so glad we're able to spend some time with Lori. And this week's episode of bringing to the forefront Lord gives us I think j such a great perspective effective on this. This is almost like three shows at one. We have the great opportunity of Laurie to talk to us about doing social for a an NGO or our nonprofit like museum Ziam. We have her talking about being a steward of a facebook group of four thousand members. And then as you said this really important messaging around burn burn out that we as Social Media Practitioners and quite frankly people in a lot of other industries are dealing with and how we see some of the social platforms acknowledging this recognizing this and the challenges of feeding the content final each and every day. But there's so much to still to be learned and discussed about. This and Laurie really gives us an interesting vantage point. Yeah if you've ever gone home at the end of the day that boy. I really bought bit off a lot more than I wanted to chew here. In this social media job this is going to be the episode for you as Lori. Bird McDevitt joins us this week on the social pros podcast returning this week. Rose guest are fantastic sponsors including in salesforce marketing cloud who have a terrific e book called Fifty Social Media Best Practices. You can get it right now. Won't cost you thing they're gonNA give it to you absolutely for free because as you listen to social pros you can get bitterly slash tips fifty social. I'll give that to a little bit more slowly. B. I t. dot l. y. slash ti APS. Five zero social. You should down that. It's Good Adam. Hoge put it together. Terrific piece work. Also the tweaks show brought to you by your friends. Emma email service provider down there Nashville Tennessee. They do all the things that you want. From an email service provider they send email people get the email stats analysis marketing automation nation landing pages lisp leading all the tactical stuff. That you want to do to make sure your emails optimized for success but what I really like most about Emma is that you can actually talk to a living human being gene which sounds self-evident. But boy I tell you what a lot of companies out there who are in the software business and you WANNA actually talk to somebody thing. I work like try to get AMI's Joe. Someone from Amazon Amazon on the phone for example. That's not gonNA happen Emma's great crew really terrific group of people. There'd be happy to help you go to my Emma Dot com slash. Jay is awesome learn more. That's m. y. e. m. m. a. dot com slash. Jay is awesome all case to find out how they can help you or the person but in your organization. Let's talk this week to Lori. Bird McDevitt all about facebook groups burnout in social media media and Best Practices for museum social media. Managers is is as Adams three three three three shows in one here social pros podcast Lori Bird McDavitt. Welcome to social pro. Thanks for being here for having me. We like to have you on your experience so interesting because you have been on the museum side of social media you in addition to being the CO founder of the the Digital Services Social Media Consultancy Nine hundred nine digital located in Indianapolis not too far from where I sit right now. You were also the head of social media for the the Indianapolis Children's museum which is the largest children's museum on the planet or something like that and and what I find super amazing that you're the CO founder of the Taste Book Group for Museum. Social Media Manager is and you may think Jesus why is there a facebook group for that. But there's like thousands of people in four thousand four in the group and in an extra or co founder. I think was Ryan Dodge. who was a guest on this podcast at one point when he used to be at the Royal Antero Museum up there in Toronto Canada? So thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate taking the time the latch tell us a little bit about the museum. Social Media World and and how it differs differs from what some of our listeners might work more on the company side of social comparisons and contrast there. I mean if you really you think about it. Museum social media managers have really weird jobs. So you take the craziness of your typical social media manager and you had lots of quirky forty collections objects very opinionated visitors possibly climbing on his objects and the possibility of controversy. That's Tidier Museum Komo could be erupting at any moment I mean I could go into a really quick day in the life of the museum social I mean so if you think about it because their collections are often so vast We could tie to almost any trending topic or holiday you can think of so. That's an embarrassment crispin riches but on the other side there's this flood of programs exhibits and competing internal promotional content. That they're having to manage manage every day so they're not able to be really deliberate in a campaign or content plan It's a constant struggle to keep your head above water in that way And then on the other side museums a lot of them are what you would think they would be would be a little bit behind the times with a lot of their stacks. So they're slow to understand and a lot of social media best practices or simply dismissed the job as if anyone can do it. It's really hard to get them up to speed in that way on the C.. Suite still is thinking of social media. Managers generally speaking as lesser. They or in a giving them fewer resources and that's really frustrating end similarly to any social media manager they are the front line digital customer service on top of everything else. They're still doing twenty four seven monitoring but Museums often are major tourist attractions. So there's endless. Comments questions reviews at one conference that I went to a On the major. DC Museum described tracking visitor. INSTAGRAM stories. As I can only qualify that with overwhelm right. There's just so much to keep track of with such little time men. Of course there's the expectation to be human think about museums and how diverse and unique they are and the very specific tones that you can have as a museum and putting your humanness into back. So there's that level of vulnerability there and my friend Russell Dornan. He had been at the he is now at. Va Dundee. He had been at the wellcome collection and has really built up their accounts and establish their cheeky risky tone. I really encourage you to look up on the welcome collections on accounts. And he said putting your heart online or on the line leaves it exposed so every cruel jibe aimed organization really cuts you like a knife and so that's what easily leads to burn out so don't even get me started on prices. Communications and controversies. That could be a whole other episode. I'll come back for that one. Nobody wants wants to hear that their baby is ugly even if they know their baby is ugly. And and in your case because you worked for a museum which has a children's museum you have the added sort of wrinkle of many of the patrons being children right and content being created by miners and you've got Children's Online Privacy Protection Act regulations a number of other circumstances that even other people in the museum social media business wouldn't have to contend with at least not at the same level. It is interesting what you said about Executives and museums not fully understanding either the role of social and or the benefit of social. Do you think that they continue to spend money on visitor attraction in what we might consider to be yesterday's yesterday's tactics or do they just feel like mass. Social media isn't really that important or it's not that hard. We could get anybody to do it. There's definitely it's a little bit of both. There's definitely the intern mentality. A little bit still am speaking in generalizations allegations. There's definitely a lot of great museum. CEOS that are making strides but generally with museums. We like to say it's like turning the titanic around it's just a big entrenched sort of thinking. So yeah it is very much you know focused on doing the almost in in some ways trying to remain relevant is a big question so it is focusing on the entertainment aspect in some ways ways depending on what type of museum it is And there's that balance there of what's going to drive visitors in And it's I'm trying to build an understanding of how social media plays into that and so social media managers in museums specifically always trying to make the point that we are that I touch point digitally out there. She your customers to your visitors so give us that those resources to be the brand to bring people in and increasingly. If you don't get that I touch point right you're not GonNa get the second touch point. I mean that's that's the point that I think people don't quite understand a and like you know you get one chance to make a first impression and that first impression is now handled via Google or facebook or instagram right. It's it's not the well they. They bought a ticket. And that's the first impression knob row. That's like the seventh impression. It's that whole zero moment of truth. premise that being said even with those limitations and challenges with resources and support psychologically emotionally some of the greatest social media campaigns in history have come from museums and and museum social media practitioners. There's this sort of work against all odds we're GONNA do amazing things. And and you have seen so many of those chronicle them and celebrated them inside the Muse social community talk a little bit about the community and strengthen its our in how it was created and how it's evolved over time. Yes yeah so as you mentioned Ryan Dodge formerly from the royal on -Tario Museum He is one of my dear friends and back around twenty thirteen. I would say they'll so long ago we just realized we kind of tired of us being frustrated with nothing in competition with one another and we realized we wanted to be supportive of one another so we created this facebook art museum social media managers and it has just grown and grown really fast. As you mentioned it's over four thousand people now And we bent a lot to one another We share resources. We Claverie as you mentioned and so one of my favorite examples of collaborative project is back when alternative facts were an issue shoe a couple of years ago and just a couple of Of the social media managers in the group said you know we as museums need to stand up and do something and so they came up with the Hashtag Hashtag Day affects and on one day museums across the United States. All Aw simply stated backs on twitter and it got national attention in major newspapers new Washington Post List and things like that and it really did make an impact and when you really think about it when all the nations or even sometimes the world's Suicidal media managers in museums decided to thing people are going to listen and so that is what really makes me proud of this group that we can pull together other in that way in addition to supporting one another When we otherwise aren't supported in our museums when I when I saw the Hashtag Cap Buzzer? It looks like day off axe different thing entirely. What the things you do the things you do on your day off is not the same day of facts but now together now? Oh yes that makes more more sense exactly so the museum people they use correct punctuation all of their Hashtag X. at them go ahead it's laureates so mad I too and that's one of the things I like about that program that here. We are social media professionals using social media to bring people together other not necessarily about our organization or our product. I that was one of the things that I truly appreciated on the success that you had with the day FACS ax initiative. One of the things that I think interests me about your space is the fact that number one most host social media professionals in the museum space have multiple hats. They're having to wear you articulated that very well. The other thing is primarily. You'll everyone would think from the outside that the social media manager of a museum is there to draw visitors and to draw ticket cells and things like that but just as import it in many many instances is around development or fundraising. And that's a huge part of the museum kind of model and I'm curious how all social media managers reconcile with that other side. which is how do we get people who can give donations? And and and be it'd be contributors to the Museum Ziam and how all that fits into the the social media program. Yeah we do have to be very careful about how we balance all of those different factors and the different goals in social media and also having that authentic voice so so really. It's taking the goals of all the different departments around the museum and Development and fundraising is just one of the many goals that social media he manages are always contending with It's not necessarily the social media manager making those decisions about the messaging even or what. The campaigns are they might have a say in it. But it's really that that mix of what is going out But we always want to to have that layer of authenticity on there and have Just that human aspect to it so of of course there's crowd funding of course there's Giving Tuesday which museums take a major. Pardon we've realized that but the it's flooded on that day so it's not very successful but so we come together around that and we actually the four thousand of must decide. Is this actually a viable day for us. You know. That's one of those things that we can talk about together. But yeah it's it's all just part of of the mix of promotions the trending topics. What's going to be relevant for the audience and sometimes they don't want to be Asked for money through twitter so we have to make that argument back to our development teams. You mentioned this group of four thousand members. There's an having any sort of organization of your peers. I think is so critical and I think when you look at that and you also look at the other thing thing that you brought up of of burnout of the challenges that we have a social media practitioners in people understanding while we do may be our managers it may be our leadership leadership and the challenges of that. Do you find that that membership roster in group is good for venting or is there some more other different for types of therapeutic bid if it's that come from being associated with with like minded people who have have challenges. Are you creating any kind of new programs to help help them. Kind of feel the that the uniqueness of their position in the that. They're not unique in the burnout. Yeah it's been really interesting to see the conversation ebb and flow around self care and burn out lately. And that's really what I've been on a little bit of a mission to bring to light more recently Is the misuse of the term. burnout actually That really people. Oh keep putting the impetus on be employees to solve the problem And so that's why we're going to Groups like facebook groups to you have that support system but really what I'm finding as I'm looking out into the broader like writings of other people is that putting it on the employees really victim shaming actually It really needs to be put back on the employer to be proactive in their approach to helping find net space for social media managers to you know have their wellbeing bought about and so I found this recent article in looking looking outside of the museum. Social media managers fear From writer in a social media pro L. A. Dawson but just hit recently and it really resonated with me in this metaphor she said was You can't unburned birch toast because once you're out you're burnout. It's pretty much deer just kind kind of done So really what we need to do is work together to prevent it and so this clearly obviously isn't just a museum social media manager problem. It's a wider lider media manager problem And in fact even further out than that. There's Dr Zubin Domon yet. Talks about it being Moral Injury in the healthcare profession. So do you think about a saying that social media managers are on the front lines. It's just not much not much different than being at war thinking about the PTSD coming back at war and you want to go and have this. The moral understanding of what you know is right but you have to deal with the worst of the worst and social media. Managers often have to do that to you. Go out every day. Twenty four seven and you have to deal with the trolls of the Internet. The worst of the Internet and but on the happy face and you never get to let up so I like there's a lot of parallels there obviously we're not going to war. I don't WanNa try to equate that A. There's just a lot to be learned from Some of these these different phrases and what these different fields are talking about. It's clearly not our niche. It's not even just social media managers. It's it's nurses dealing dealing with burnout. It's a lot of other fields dealing with this and my friends seem row. She wrote a book literally called Self Care For museum workers. So there's were. We're already trying to solve the problem. So that's a great One of her points she makes is that we don't have to wait. It should be that the whole structure changes changes. That's what really needs to happen eventually. But in the meantime it really just falls to the managers advocating for their employees For colleagues advocating versus media managers and Really managers helping make time for their for their employees to have that self care time time and not being afraid to talk about burnout themselves Sharing challenges is a sign of weakness. And by talking about it. More it removes removes the stigma around it so I think that's really important that we're all talking about Even when I recently Shared a blog post about this. Yes I had people just come out of the woodwork in droves. I was really shocked because I was kind of venting but it really resonated. I had a colleague from the Dallas Museum of art. WHO said that? My blog just flew around his department that day and it was the first day in forever that their whole team went home at five pm and then he noticed a a true change in how his whole team treated their social media manager in really respected more after that and that really that impacted me the most so so I think that really it's just about understanding and talking about it is really that I will make sure link up some of the resources that Lori mentioned at Social Pros Dot Com so you can go and dig a little deeper and learn more about these issues and I would argue that that just organizationally. One of the challenges is that in most to museums. There is a social media manager and it is a department of one. It's not like there's a whole bunch of people and if you're out sick or you wanna take time someone can cover for you. Obviously your results may vary based on the size of your museum and and your budget but typically in my experience there is a person right and so you were doing all all things right. You're like you're you're every single conceivable job. So that is really hard and the relentlessness of that is is definitely a part art. The burnt out that Lori mentioned and that's why facebook groups like the one you've created the museum social media. Managers are so important because in an enterprise setting some of the clients that Adam works with its sales for our since the clients that we work with at commits a convert. There may be two four six eight twenty twenty-five social media managers or whatever. The circumstances are devoted a different channels or different regions. But but you got a posse right and and working every day in an organization where Oh you got snow posse and we've got this sinking suspicion that your boss neither understands nor cares about what you do is not necessarily the recipe for coming home. Every renite feeling that your work has purpose and meaning so Some of it is just a structural challenge with museums. And just how they staff Social Social Media because of this movement around self care and the now very very very large facebook group that has taken up some of these challenges and questions. Do you have specific tips for social bras listeners. Many of whom we are of course social media managers museums are otherwise. Do you have specific self-care tips that you would say you know what to help you. Avoid getting burnt out in your social social media career. Here's some things that had you thought this through earlier you would have made sure to have done years ago when you were just GonNa get started in this. I I would definitely say that in keeping in line with the argument about putting the impetus on your employer rather than yourself else that having a conversation about your needs upfront is really important. I know that when I had opportunity to start a new role as a social media manager I had a very frank conversation with my boss first thing and said you know I have custody with my son. These are the weeks that he's at my home. This is when I'm not monitoring and we really talked through just for an example I think that's really important again. Just taking the stigma away and talking about the challenges and making sure that they will advocate for you and using this conversation. That's happening right now using resources like this like with articles like Elyse To share around and say look this is a conversation that's happening and I would like your support uh-huh and then once you have that foundation you know it's not to say that you shouldn't also provide self care for yourself So I know that there's different things for everyone I've been reading a lot of books myself lately and I swear to goodness everyone says to meditate. Ah I really have been trying to more. It's really hard when you have small kids a busy life but you know I actually really trying myself Breathing a lot. Even just breathing helps. I've learned But yeah just taking that time to to think positively positive energy out into the world positively will come back around to you. I really do feel that. That's really true and I know that other people people have lots of different ways that they do try to unplug and that just has to be whatever works for you. I have not found the secret sauce for myself. With it's crazy. Heard Right win win the whole reason you have the job because you're so good at staying plugged in and then ironically the way to make sure you don't don't get sick and tired of the job and actually do real harm to yourself is to unplug like you know it's for a lot of social media managers say you should unplug so you can like chill out that's like saying you should stop breathing. Heating air right it just. It is very very difficult to do. I find myself struggling with it. Social Media Manager in the Classic Sense Right. It's just it's just really really hard Adam. We should do a show on meditation like literally like how to do meditation for Social Media. Professional team told they make that happen to be great. No I love that. You know. It's an IT's tangentially. Actually related to that Lori is the company I work for. SALESFORCE IS A and Mark Benny off our our our CASSIA founder. Meditation is a big part part of of of his passion enthusiasm. It's something that he's tried to to bring to our organization as well so can agree more. Lor You have have a really interesting vantage point and and all this and what. What what you're sharing with US resonate so much I know you and Ryan were selected to be part of FACEBOOK's first facebook community summit to represent your group of these Ian Social Media Professionals? I think we've recently heard in the news how other social platforms platforms are looking at the relationship with their content creators. You to really trying to to help fix and respond to burn out for video content creators on their on their platform. I'm curious if you're seeing any more actions or activities from the social media platforms themselves house to either a acknowledge kind of what we're talking about here and be. Are they doing anything about it. Yeah I really have not necessarily really seen any actions from other platforms really talking about this. I feel like it's really been a grassroots effort from social media professionals themselves if they are I'd love to see it I just really have been interested in the the dark social aspect of it and online communities themselves as that way to organize and and find those opportunities to support one another kind of going back to your organization you your co founder of nineteen o nine digital and as you grow this this group in practice one of the things you shared with us before was your use of a link. Din is kind of being as you as the organization and have kind of grown up. It's becoming more and more of an interesting platform for for you to use for nine hundred nine digital. This is something that we're hearing on on the The show quite a bit we had we had a content and community manager strategists from link to Amazon just touched a few weeks ago she seen it kind of from in her vantage point. Curious kind of how. You're seeing your use of Lincoln mature and If you think it's a if it's a valuable resource and if you're doing anything different Burlington that you may been doing on one of the more Kinda we'll call older traditional platforms. Yeah it really is interesting to see Kalinka shift I would say a few years ago. It was the only platform my my business Focused father was on an now. It's actually one of the platforms that I find myself looking at all of the time And really being inspired by the content that is on their On on the streams being shared by I feel like a lot of business developers a lot. What of Even C. Suite or director levels Mid career professionals really I feel like being transparent about their challenges this and being really positive I see it as being a very positive platform now. which is what really resonates with me? And so I I find myself on it a lot and I feel like as social media. Managers have a little bit. I could say grownup throughout the past decade. It's an the opportunity to share our needs on that more so and you know be able to make the case to those C. C. Suite. I want to ask you one question on that because I'm seeing the exact same thing and I'm finding myself going to Lincoln because of that and the only thing I can put my finger on Lori unless this is an amazing algorithm shift that they're making there seems to be less political vitriol on linked in it hasn't permeated linked in like we we see on twitter facebook and the others on curious just from a purely personal standpoint. Does that have any impact on you. Like it's having on me personally. Yeah that is very true. I do not I feel like people model behavior even if it subconsciously so you tend to the a share what you see other people sharing so I do wonder if the algorithm is prompting other people to continue sharing what they're seeing. This is the norm. Here I'm going to continue sharing this sort of content and I've noticed in whether it's an emerging museum professionals group or with my students that are emerging museum professionals or in other facebook groups like a museum social media managers people asking talking. Is it appropriate to post this on Lincoln. So people are more wary of what they post on linked in they're anxious about how it will be perceived so I think that it's one of those places where you curate your content more and so you might be more hesitant to post political views there as well. Yeah that makes sense you going to have some kind of cadence pressure either. You're not trying to post multiple times data linked to and typically so. You can be a little bit more thoughtful full about what you put their. WanNa ask you about the facebook group. I it's successful right. And it's very thriving community in every sense of the word. What tips do you have for social pros listeners? Who are either maybe in a facebook group or edmonds of a facebook group? I want to start a facebook group either amongst their colleagues and peers or even even for their customers. Would you have about facebook group administration and crazy next to thrive in culture there. I thanks for asking this question. I love online communities so much and I really had a great time having the chance to go up to the facebook community summit and getting to learn from facebook and from other FACEBOOK group admins. It really is amazing to get to learn from these other people and just see what sort of actual strategies and tactics. They're are doing and really it's about Again I mentioned earlier. Modeling Behavior Encouraging those who have shared shared positive or encouraging content that you want to see and in those early years in the group I just. It's kind kind of natural for me. I always want to be the cheerleader for people. I always like to encourage successes and and I I would always whenever someone would post something I would never let a post to go. Unlike Durham commented on. I would always encourage them so it wouldn't and be just me posting content we also have a a How do you say it? It's just a thing we do every week. Where you're able to sign up for our cover photo and Because we couldn't agree on what are cover photo should be because we're all all the museums of all all over the world right so what. What on Earth should that be all beautiful institutions so there is a document where you sign up and and you also in that undocument- host a foot your photo for the cover photo and every Monday? I update the cover photo Recently at a conference I had a friend. Say It's it's just so comforting knowing that every Monday when I get a notification from the Museum Social Media Interest Group. It's just Laurie. Updating the cover photo an Google doodle doodles google images of the day. I thought of it like it's we're at Two hundred and forty six just updated it today so we featured two hundred forty a six museums which is pretty amazing to be able to see these these photos from all over the world. So that's one thing that we've done and end. Yeah it's just being able to empower others to be able to share and reminding them please do brag about your successes we love a good humble brag Just making sure people feel comfortable. Of course it will depend on what your group is. But I think that it's just establishing those norms early on and getting that community feeling comfortable to contribute is really the trick at. It's great advice I love it. I like the heavy ritualistic approach to the same way that we talk. So much on this program about not doing random acts of social and actually having shows episodic content formats I think the same is true who for social communities. If not more so I wrote about this. I think she's all my back in the now. Revolution this this principle that you've gotta give your fans assignments you can't just collect baseball. Spoke Cards You know you gotta give them something to do. Otherwise why are they a member. And and you're you're seeing a lot of membership organizations actually in the real world Have trouble trouble with with participation. For the same reason they think that just having a membership card is is enough to psychologically satisfy people. When you're holding the phone all the time and you can scroll through six thousand as an instagram photos in twenty minutes? Got To give people a little more bite at the apple. I WANNA put up. I WanNa like do the cover photo the cover photo of like atom and Laurie and me the pros love. I might actually because I'm sharing about our group and I'm going to be very carrion busiest about sharing. He does content there. He gets the Museum of Adam Brown Election Museum Museum. The Museum of Social Pros Podcast Co hosts which actually has a number of people in several five exhibits. Now although you I think now now mathematically are the longest running co host wing now instead of just own you get your own wing lovelace lily. Yes you get your face on tickets. Laurie we're going to ask through the two questions that we ask everybody here on the program. I question what one tip. Would you give somebody who's looking to become a social flow. I always stay say stand on the shoulders of giants celebrate and other successes and let them inspire you rather rather than embitter you. Embrace the best of what social media can do in share what others are doing and I always say that this is the secret sauce to growing your network. It's about collaborating and supporting not trying to one up each other boy. That is such good advice. Thoughtful Adams reports. Averts look it the best way to get the spotlight to shine on. You is to shine the spotlight on everybody else in eventually. It will leak back on on you. It's just the way it works but most people don't have the patience for that and most people. Frankly don't care enough about other people to do that but trust me it will tell you that it. It works Laurie. If you could do a video call with any living person who would it be. I'm really curious if anyone has said this but we need your your pedia genius. We need somebody to actually collate the the four hundred answers. We have to this question. Because we've got kind of a half ass Google doc and it's not really working so I know you're the right person for the job so I do not. I probably want. Let me tell you if it's somebody who said Mr Museum researchers Semi Person Is Simon Cal What you might not have guessed but I'm a bit of a reality? TV Junkie When not in museums? So I've watched every American idol since the beginning expecter and a number of years of America's bat talent and and if you haven't been paying attention you may think that he's still this trait means I'm in cal- from the early idle years but really quite the opposite. Now you might be raised to now. He's beloved really by people. He's this genius. Industry grinch whose heart grew three sizes and the old Simon has sort of melted away and to me. It's also a reflection of Internet culture. I think it used to be cool to be snarky and now it's cool to be kind. Well said what what a great book that would be right. The the metamorphosis of of Simon callow speed great Broadway play and so that's what you can be doing right now. You'd be working on the Simon and Cow Metamorphosis Butterfly Cocoon Story. They can also be a museum exhibit walk and he's He's physically. He's lost a tremendous amount of weight. I don't know he's changed his diet completely so I think he was because he was also that fat mean did you know he does not actually social media or a smartphone at all fun fact he shoes social media. Well I mean I can kind of see enough social but no smartphone. I'm sure it's not. It's handlers yes he he has plenty of loans in the respective pocket for sure Lori. Thank you so much for taking time to be on the show. Thank you for the great work that you're doing on behalf of the museum social media managers out there. Congratulations on the new company as well. Nineteen O nine digital in Indianapolis List and thank you for the work that you're doing calling attention to the plight of social media manager is not just a museum space but in all spaces I think if you listen to this program you probably well know perhaps apps all too well just how hard of job it is and is under appreciated and under recognized so thanks for the work that you're doing friends don't mm forget all the episodes that we've ever done a lot of them with atom even you can find at social pros dot com will link up a lot of the resources that Lori mentioned in today's episodes we got transcripts. You've got to be have the audio we've got show. It's all that stuff at social pros dot com. Thanks as always for listening. We really appreciate each in every one of you. On behalf of Adam Brown from salesforce marketing cloud. I'm Jay Baer founder of convince and convert. This has been hopefully your favorite podcast in the whole world. Keep on making it happen out. There hug each other. It's GONNA be okay. This has been social press.