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The VOR and Echo Zoe Crossover Topicpalooza

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Welcome everyone to voice of reason. Radio your host Chris Haunt holds joining us on. This may ninth. Two Thousand Twenty. I just said host year riches and here. I'm sorry guys poor. Richard's had a pretty full week. He is not able to join me this week. So what has what I'm actually going to give? You is a different co host so to speak would joining me today. And you'll hear as I hit the play button here in just a second is Andy Olsen of Echo Zoe radio. He has a monthly podcast that he brings a lot of people on In the Christian community pastures and writers and other podcasts host and he has been kind enough to host me as a as a guest twice before on his program while he asked me to join him today. And so what what we did is a twofer. So we're actually recorded a program for both voice of Reason Radio and for Echoes Zoe. Radio and If you're a voice of reason radio listener you're getting first dibs because I'm GONNA have. This edited and uploaded before. He does always fancy editing on his end. So I hope you enjoy our compensation that we had today. We actually covered a variety of topics and We hope that these conversations remind you as Christians how we can discuss issues on Just about anything and do so as Christians who love one another who loved the word of God and she'll grace kindness and mercy to one another and That was what we hoped. We accomplished with this so grateful that you are joining us. Thank you for being patient with US. Like I said unfortunately which was not able to be with us on this program so we hope to have him back next week but hope you're blessed hope you enjoy it and here we go. Chris is Great to have you back. This is my first time on your show. It's your third time on my show at thank you for having me on. It's always a blessing and abby into being a part of Echo Zoe It's it's funny because for the longest time I wasn't we weren't doing any kind of Interview because honestly is nice as it is. They have all the equipment that you and others were so kind to get us I was terrified of hitting the wrong buttons and not getting it right so it's only finally starting to to do guests with other shows and it's it's a blessing to have. Yana of rich couldn't be with us today. So this is SCR. This is a great opportunity for for you guys to for our folks to hear you as well. Yeah well and I thank you for having me and I. I'm hoping Richards doing well. I know that he could new show with you this week. And happy to sit 'n forum. Yeah your show but I pray that he's back in the swing of things quickly. Yeah he's He just had a full week and You know one of the things that when we started voice reason radio we always had an agreement that family and personal issues that you know taking care of those always come first and he even when it's not like into the world crises. Hey if you're just not feeling well or you've had a bad week. Hey we'll do a will do a rerun episode. We'll come up with a solo up so we'll do something 'cause we always try to Where he's so he's doing okay he just. He had a pretty full week. Yeah well you do. Weekly shows so so I do monthly. It's a little easier when those family issues come up at all. I got three more weeks in a month. I generally like to get my shows up on the first of the month now again this. I Dunno least the second or third month in a row. Now that I'm behind but one of these months I'll catch up. We keep telling ourselves that well my wife would like to use this This pandemic this Stay at home stuff and And go to her parents house in Arizona now. Her parents aren't there so we were not going to violate social distancing. That's kind of a neat thing. They came back to Minnesota. They left this empty house in Arizona and she really wants to go down there so if anything that will probably throw them even further behind because we go down there and I'm not dragging my with me what you've got a pretty full setup. It would be a little bit difficult but I I last I think October I got the road. Caster which is a phenomenal. Awesome podcasting board and so my setup is is my footprints gotten smaller. I probably could drag especially if we drive derozan which would be my preference with dollar thirty gas. I would rather drive and you know this is like high school gases low and we're all grounded. We can't exactly. Yeah well that means has been going around for years. It says you know you're getting all because Because what used to be a punishment is now a great night. You know you gotta stay home in early curfew. You're not allowed to leave the home like that's my well absolutely I I. I love it when somebody posted when when the shutdowns went into play. Some of us were like you know. My Life didn't change all that much. Wonder that says adobe yeah well ours got a little easier because we're always all were were all often home. I'm a stay at home dad. My wife works from home a lot. And then my kids are home schooled. So we're all pretty much home but now we're not running to karate and dance lessons and swimming lessons and all this stuff that it seemed like we got two things every evening every day of the week and Sunday is the only day where we don't have something other than church and so it's been a little bit of Xing to you know we still have karate but I put it out on the TV and they do it through Zoom Perfect. So yeah it's Kinda cool but I wanted to ask you before we get too far. I kinda missed your joining the Christian podcast network their community. What we're a fellow member now. That's kind of why I was thinking of you again like i. You know part of why. I'm on there as I wanNA promote other members but but I kind of missiles that I saw a tweet from Andrew saying your show was up and he only does those tweets for Christian podcasts community. Show so yeah. We didn't. Andrew was kind of funny when he first created the idea for Christian podcast community. I remember him talking to me about it and and to both rich and I and we thought well. That's kind of interesting. Yeah let me think about it Mostly because we've finally hit for years at the end of last month and it still felt like as we going into this into our third year it was almost like Gosh. Do we really know what we're doing yet? And this is the first episode and my thirteenth year. I still but I only do one a month. So you've done more episodes. I have for years but well as it was last year that we finally became much more consistent with doing that every week for the first two plus years we were hit and miss and it was just like. This is something we're going to do. We're GONNA try and make it as often as possible but you know if we miss so that that's where that's what happens and things changed when I had the opportunity to go to The the shepherds conference and I met people who listen to the program and suddenly the whole thing became much more real that there were people that actually listened and cared about what we had to say. Which really still to. This date amazes me who listens to begin with but actually agrees with and cares about what we say that that blows my mind so it became a commitment to me to our listeners to try to be more consistent and up until about the end of November early December. We were really consistent about that. And so that. Was I. Think the impetus for us to talk to Andrew about getting on with Christian podcast community and it's been a wonderful experience. We've always been a part of their facebook group that they they're always very open about helping people with information Trying to cross promote other programs and for us it was an opportunity to work with like minded Christians. And as you say where we can and just be a part of that platform and so it's it it's been We've only been doing it for a few weeks now but it really has been a wonderful experience and it's very bizarre to see our show listed on a website as as being served by no no. It's it's really just been the last few weeks that we've been Finally been on there so It took a while. And what's what's funny is we've known. Andrew for we were talking early in and even you know they've got a stack that they go through. And even though I've known Andrew Long enough the vetting process was much easier going than it is for some of the other podcasts. A you know it's still got a pile go through and Well process that he wants to carry out and they and they still make sure even though they know you they still want to make sure that everybody's in agreement and everybody knows that this is a program that's on board with their statement of faith on board with what everybody is she and yes. We're all going to have a variety of beliefs on certain issues but generally speaking they try to see. You know if you're GONNA come on board with Christian Cup community you gotta be Orthodox and You got to agree with statement of faith and you got to be able to talk to them about that and I appreciated that. Because you're not you're not gonNA get special treatment per se just because you know some of the people that might help facilitate the process but it certainly doesn't guarantee anything which was something. I greatly appreciated. Honest well I also like that that that betting process and that whole statement of faith type thing in agreeing because I still have yet to go through the whole catalogue over there so i. I'm not getting to know the other podcasts. As quickly as I'd like to but But I I'm yet. I'm still comfortable enough with the ones that I've heard and with knowing what what's going on behind the scenes. I'm comfortable enough to say. Just go check out the feet you know. Like subscribe to the General Feet and listen to it. You're going to get some really great stuff there and sometimes I'm out in the garage or something working. I WanNa have you know radio on and and and it works out. Well I I think I put it on. Roku out there in the garage so I I subscribe on Iheart through the Iheart half and then I just said To Go and start start with whatever the newest episode from General Fetus. And then it will play right through in all kind of backwards in time but Yeah I could easily eat up an afternoon. Just listening to so the shows on there and that's one of the things I like about it is. There are so many if you go onto. Let's say you use apple podcast or you go through Google's podcast APPS. There are so many programs so many varieties if you just went and picked Christian. Who knows what you're going to get guaranteed Jolo osteen? You gotta get Jolo seen. You're going to get Beth more false teachers Galore and this is a kind of a one stop shop where you are if you listen to anything. Generally speaking you're getting sound biblical discussion. And that's what I appreciate is that it is one place that you can go that you don't have to go. Will I hope? Be this one's okay and hit the play button and blasted with false agent. And that's not going to happen with. Yeah you might not necessarily click personality wise with the host of the show. But YOU'RE NOT GONNA get here see exactly exactly and and it and it gives you an opportunity you can like you said with that feed you can sample of variety of shows. And then you go. Hey I really like this particular show. Hey I like Echo Zoe and now you're subscribing to that in addition to listening to the feed you get to you know hear a variety of programs which is fantastic. All right well we are ten minutes and then we haven't got our topics. That's normal for voice reason radio you. That's normal for me. I I you know I do an hour long show and I tell guests like I actually prefer like to tell you the to set aside two hours because by the time we can get online and we chit chat a little bit and then we hit record and the we chitchat some more for the audience to hear we finish and then we chitchat. Some more it's going to be two hours a rushing. Yeah that's that's normal and this is this every time this week. I I drive my son crazy because his computer sitting behind me the gaming computer that he bought and this is he knows great. Dads kicking me out of the Office for a couple of hours So but yeah. We don't need let's go ahead so what I'm thinking is and I am just throwing. You didn't see this coming. Ah We. We know we've got three topics that we discussed ahead of time when I'm going to do as I'm going to ask that little device back there roll the dice. Oh Okay and it's GONNA say one two three four five or six right okay and so the first stopping we did. We'll be one or two and the second will be three or four five or six song. Good good all right Alexa. Roll the dice Alexa. Roll the dice. I cut off Alexa. Roll a dice. It's a FI. That's your topic. Oh wonderful. So let's let's let's start off with the really. The really bummer topic. Okay well at least we can end on a higher. Yes that would be good. That would be this way. We don't dumb everybody out And I really shouldn't put it that way because I this is really kind of sad I when you approached me about doing the program and I was trying to think of some topics and this news report came up. It's it actually was dated yesterday The the article came through religion. News Service Friends Mourn Darrin Patrick Mega Church pastor and author who died of apparent self inflicted gunshot wound There to put it as simply as a candidate Patrick is. He was a well known name and has been an author preacher and speaker for for many years and a few years ago he had actually been removed as the senior pastor from The the church that he's he was part of because as the church put it he had been They cut they refer to it as miss conduct it that in that he had been in inappropriate meetings conversations and phone calls to women which was which was considered an abusive power and then over the course of twenty six months. He had gone through a restoration process. Now for people listening. I know what everybody's saying. Well inappropriate meanings that means adultery. The the article is saying that was not what the church elder said. It's certainly gossip. Rumor Mill was saying most likely and I think most of us even if it was just inappropriate meetings. Let's say it. Never progressed to the point of adultery obviously has Christ points out Any lust in our hearts is you know committing adultery in the heart. So if he if he was going that far of the Church did the right thing. They actually pulled him out of his position as Pew Pastor He went through a restoration process that lasted twenty six months and he returned as a preacher but he was not the senior pastor of the Church so he was no longer able to be in that high position of authority and clearly. You know there was a lot that went on during a more than two year process. So it would. It would seem at least on the surface from what everything that we've you know Darin. Patrick went through within the last two years. It would seem like maybe life turned around what the Church has posted is at you know that he was according to the statement released by Seacoast Church which is where he is. was a pastor. They say that And this is Seacoast is listed as charged Charleston South Carolina in Saint Louis Missouri. So I'm assuming multi campus But they said that he had been target shooting with a friend at the time of his death. An official cause of death has not been released but it appears to be a self inflicted gunshot wound. No foul play is suspected so obviously we don't know the exact circumstances behind this some have. There's a lot we don't know in the store and so we have been. You brought up like this inappropriate discussion. Yeah it's it's a quite an assumption to not only go to even go to anything sexual. There's an assumption. It could have nothing to do with that. It could be like you know. I really didn't like the cookies baked for the last potluck right. You know so. We don't we don't know a lot we know is that it was somehow an abuse of his position and and I think there are. There's a point where you can make some logical assumptions. But you have to be careful about those assumptions but obviously if you can imagine though that let's let's just go with the cookie analogy. I'm like what's to say just for just for sake of argument it was somebody didn't somebody made oatmeal raisin cookies. And he ate it thinking. It was a chocolate chip cookie and he got upset and decided to say something and the elder board decided that was an abusive power. You know that that Just next time split the cookie out and and let it go along and you can see how the rumor mill would going. Because they're so vague as to what happened right right. And that's that's the biggest problem anytime we stuff like this and of course any social media is is the worst place for a lot of these discussions take place but I think the the biggest concern is that you know we see the phrase self inflicted gunshot wound and the rain at a range. I look I I've been you know my my line of work. I've dealt with firearms for twenty one years in actually for before that when I was still serving in the military so for more you know more than half my life have been around firearms to hit. Do a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head at a range. You're either being very very careless. Which is always always a possibility or something clicked and somebody decided. I don't WANNA be part of this world anymore. I I don't know. And but when I read that and I think most of US reading that we see self-inflicted gunshot wound. We think Oh my goodness he took his life and what that triggered for me and my thoughts is let assuming for a moment that that. That's what happened that he had taken his own life and again. We don't know that that's the case what I do know is. That's an issue that happens within pastoral roles e You. You have. People who are under tremendous pressure especially. If you're part of a mega church. I mean tremendous amount of pressure and I cannot imagine what. That's like to be a pastor in a role where not only is it your job to be in constant watch over the people under your charge dealing with my goodness the the amount of stress and strain that goes on in our our lives on a daily basis imagined that you're the person that has to be responsible for hearing those counseling them responding to those late night Emergency Calls Counseling family members. Who are dealing with product children Dealing with in this day and age especially with the the whole. Lgbt movement. Mike kids are they go to public school. They've been told that they're they're gay. They should embrace it. These are all the things that pastor has to deal with and then every week you got to preach right and you've got Just like anything else where there's a a group of people you're going to have political type issues to your. I don't care how big or small your churches certainly certainly at a mega church. You're going to have a number of unbelievers in your ranks. Exactly you're going to have false converts in your race and they're gonNA act like false converts. Yup and they're going to be backstabbing. They're going to be a rumor mongering they're going to be doing things that are. GonNa drag your church down and that's it something that a lot of us Lent in church. Don't think about it a lot especially those of us who are not false converts. You know we WANNA to serve. Christ we want to honor God we WanNa love our brethren. We don't engage in that kind of thing and but it happens and it happens at at any church of any size exactly and so like I said I. We don't know what happened to Dr Patrick. I I would hate to hear that. The reality is that he took his own life. I hope that's not the case. But it does make me think about those pastors in the article from Religion News Service. They refer to They interview one of Patrick's friends A Excuse me a second. I gotTa Rob Rob Egality Pastor of long hollow. Baptist will Mr Galaxy is also was also friends with a jared Wilson who not long ago had also taken his own life. Now it's not jared Wilson the the pastor and author but another jared Wilson at. His spelling was J. A. R. Ideas. I recall and I remember this. He because he was a pastor but he was an advocate of you know mental health issues and stuff and he was. Apparently someone who was you know? Vocal was fairly vocal about his own issues. He wasn't didn't try to hide it but ended up taking his own life. So galaxy is lost. Not only his friend Gerald Wilson. Who was a pastor and advocate for mental health issues? But he's lost Darrin. Patrick and what's amazing is that I don't think as Christians. We stop to think about what fresher are pastors. Are Go through. I mean think about it this way you and I were talking about this before we decided to begin to show. You are as a pastor expected to basically be a theological expert. You're supposed to have all the right answers. You're supposed to have a sermon prepped. Every week with all the details you can't miss speak you can't Us An illustration that. Somebody doesn't approve of. You can't speak to controversial issues without some sort of backlash you in your life has to be a perfect image of what a Christian should be. You can never make a questionable purchase. You can never have a a bad day. You can never Get Angrier or or be upset you can never miss speak I you see if you go on vacation my goodness how dare you go to take your kids to Disneyland. We DIDN'T PAY OUR CHURCH. Tied wasn't for you to take extravagant trips. Imagine living like this day in and day out and as you said you got the church politics to go on and I don't care how wonderful your church is. Every church has that You what's the biggest church got causes. Church split color of the carpet wall paint color the walls. There's A. There's a sermon that I rarely appreciated that. I I actually played. It would have been back in two thousand twelve because I was off for a couple of months Getting some treatments for my son on and I needed a couple of fill in episodes while I was gone and it was by Phil Johnson and it was called rebellion. And he's given this sermon many Ti. He doesn't give any more from what I understand what he's given quite a few times The one I got from Mike Andros Church. You gave it there and I REACHED OUT TO I. Think Abe Andros Church own the copyright so so I reached out and asking. I use this as as a podcast head but Cora was was A Kinsman of Moses and and he was getting the people of Israel to try to reject Moses because he thought he was the rightful leader. And if you haven't heard it it's in my archives but get it you know just google. It doesn't have to listen to my but it's really good because it'll illustrate a lot of the stuff that goes on within church politics and and how there are schemers in so many churches in and the reason why. He said he doesn't give that sermon anymore is that he said every time he's ever given it. Somebody from the church will get up and say the pastor told you to preach that because they felt like that's that was that was directed at me. Yeah Yeah there you know there's Was it if it was John Calvin or Charles version? That said you know if you threw a rock into a pack of dogs the one that yelps as the one that got hit ancient Chinese problem. Maybe maybe that was a sorry. See I'm GONNA GET HATE MAIL FOR GETTING OUT. You're GONNA be right. It could be both idle but Now that's the sad part about. It is an pastor has to deal with that day in day out. I think most of us can relate to the idea of we. We see on the evening news when people Monday morning. Monday morning quarterbacks. A law enforcement officer and a lot of us and I'm sure your your listeners and certainly our listeners here on voice of reason we resonate with as well. You can't do that. That officer has more training more understanding the circumstances. You can't you can't look back with high Twenty twenty hindsight etcetera. But how many of us look that way with the pastor and I don't? I don't think we slow ourselves down to do that. And if you're a pastor who is dealing with those daily pressure do you go to hopefully your hopefully your own your own elder board if you have if you're not a small church where there's like one elder maybe you know. Hopefully there's somebody in the church you can go to. Or maybe there's other pastor that you pastors that you know that you can go to but I think there's a sense of human pride that comes with idle. Want people to know that as the pastor. I'm struggling with these things and I think we just like the the news media or politicians will Monday morning quarterback a law enforcement officer or the military or or some other person in the public realm day in and day out with no concerns. About how that you? It has impacted the officer or the military personnel. Whatever I think we as Christians sometimes forget that we need to be patient and loving and compassionate to our pastors because they deal with so much more than we'll ever have to deal with because we're not the ones getting the three. Am phone call about the death of the child. You know we're not we're not the ones that Half to counsel a wife and a mother who Whose husband is is Be trained her. And it's GonNa leave leave the family and take the kids and leave her with nothing and and you can't go talk to anybody about that. There's there's a privacy issue so how do you deal with that amount of pressure and And pain that you have to internalize because you can't go running around talking about it. That is a very difficult role and like I said. I don't know what happened with Patrick. Imagine also a pastor who has a background that he did something questionable in recent history. And that's following him and you whether Darren Patrick Overcame the stigma of his of his removal from senior pastor. Or not. You know as well as I do there are still people that look at him and go. You're the adulterer. And so how? That's why I thought it was important to to to to break through what we know and say like we don't know like. I said it could have been he an oatmeal raisin cookie when he thought it was chocolate chip. And you know you don't know and I can only imagine the burden you'd carry if people just with the assumptions that come with something like that and maybe it was. Maybe you know maybe it was something like that. We don't know but it's not fair when you don't know the details to go and try to assume that and then go Gossiping about him behind his back. But you know when you sent me. The Lincoln said well. This might be something to talk about. What I I was really thinking. Along those lines of supporting a pastor and at and at every every pastor needs to be a human being they can needs a friend you know he needs people that will that he can talk to. And maybe it's better in some cases that it's not somebody within his own church befriend those pastors that are pastoring other churches. Because as maybe they could use your friendship to get through tough issues that he can't talk about within his own church whether it be church politics or or whatnot you know Just have just having a friend that you can sit down and go through and press with and and talk to could be the difference for a guy like Darrin Patrick you know. Did he have a friend that was not part of his church that he could talk to You know if it was a cookie thing is that's something that he could've confided in with his wife or was she assuming it was what everybody else was. Probably assuming it was you know and people they need friends you know. And then if it is somebody that your own pastor give them some attention as a friend. Just invite them over for dinner. Don't expect them to lead the prayer before you eat. Don't expect them to do anything that you normally expect. Passer to do. Just have them over for movie night. Once the pandemic crop passes of course Make them sit down and watch a movie. Pray together But do as a friend. Not as a pastor because they really need that really do absolutely and and you know the funny thing about this. I I was before or after I shared this with you and I. I didn't tell you this earlier. But I went and looked at for example Patrick's twitter page and three days prior to this news announcement the one of the last Posts he puts on his twitter. Page is this as `isolation is the enemy of healthy. Living Pastors need friendship. And then he says you know in this episode breaks Iraq and Aaron Patrick Discuss Strategies for cultivating friendship and so it was a link to a podcast. A hit done but I mean I think whatever the region whatever happened it. That's clearly an issue that was on his mind that he wanted to share that information whether that had anything to do with his his passing no idea but it was clearly an issue that was on his mind the he wanted other people to think about and wanted to other pastors to be aware of. And I think that's something that's so very important us like you said. Pastures need friends. They they need to not just only ever be seen. As you're the pastor clearly pastures need to have a level of authority they have a need to have a level of respect in the church. And I think there's a lot of that's been lost thanks to seeker friendly churches megachurches and all this stuff but the you know we wish we and we should seek to recover those things but at the same time as you said pastors need to be human beings. They'RE GONNA air. They're going to say things wrong. They're going to make decisions. That aren't always the best and like us who need grace from You know the the the grace that we received from Christ everyday. We need to have grace for one another. We need to have grace for our pastors. We can jot. Treat them like they are supposed to be this upper level perfect. Christian. That can never fail. Because when we do that. How how on earth can we expect them want to reach out to anyone? If they're afraid the rumor Mills GonNa make them look bad again if if if they made a bad decision once and it nearly cost the church Nearly caused the church split. Whatever it is Well I'm not going to see anything anything ever again. Because of fat gets out my goodness. What would people think we need to let them have that? That same Forgive me for saying this. Guy's this safe place a phrase but it's appropriate the these to be a place where they can be human and that they can be comforted and they can be ministered. -Til 'cause they they needed to and I think I think that the non pastors in the church everybody else need to recognize that just humanity and yes Pastors elders are held to a higher standard. But keep in mind. You're not their job. You're not the one that. Who's holding that standard and They they can use your help they can use rebuke when they need rebuke and and A shoulder to lean on when they need a shoulder to lean on. But but maybe Also recognized that they need the same grace that you need. Maybe they need more grace because of that higher standard man I. I'm not excusing sin. I'm absolutely not excusing sin. I'm saying you know Give them grace where grace is do you know and I think if we just ask ourselves this question when I fail and I'm corrected and I appreciate That's that's good but if I held if I was held to the same scrutiny that we hope pastors to how would that then look and I think it's just that that kind of that removing log from our I you know and recognizing yes. God is appointed this person. Yes we hold them to that standard. Because if they're teaching falsely they need to be held accountable. If they're you know egregiously sending in they're not repentant of course they need to be accountable but if we if God is gracious to us why are we not showing that same level of grace and kindness and just letting them know how much we love Them? And how much that they are needed and appreciated. I think that goes a long way to breaking down that wall that allows pastures to be human and deal with the issues and seek help when they need it and they do need it now I want. I got a little transition now. I don't know yet. I've got to ask that device over the next topic's going to be but Regardless of which one it is I think the transition would be the The Law of Christ and that we are called to love the Lord our God with all our heart soul mind and strength and love our neighbors ourselves and your pastor is your neighbor Amen. Amen Excellent so with that we will get into more law of Christ in whichever topic that thing. I will be heads in the second. One will be tales. Okay Alexa Flip. Flip a coin heads. Alright so that's number one okay. And that would be wearing in the middle of a global pandemic. We're all Hunkering down in our homes and social distancing and Doing Church over facebook live and zoom and Youtube live and all that stuff from our living rooms And and I thought maybe it'd be good to talk about that from a Gospel perspective from a Biblical perspective. And I think it's going to be easy to get to the law of Christ on some of that issue but Kind of some of the things I was thinking of when I said make it a Gospel. Issues. I'm seeing you know begging like this is the curse being Demonstrated on a global scale right. Now you know. Why is there this illness that came out of wherever it came out? I came out of China but the next one the last one can come from Africa and the next one might come from North Carolina Her New York City or who knows where the point is that it brings death. And why do we have death? Yeah no absolutely I mean we we go back to the garden and when Adam sinned got had worn them if they were to eat of the of the tree of the knowledge of good evil in that day they would surely die and when they did that when Adam willfully sinned against God. He tells him what is going to happen that they were no longer free to be in the garden. No longer would they eat with ease or be able to raise crops with ease thorns and thistles would grow that the women would You know bear pain and childbearing and that there would be these contentions between husband and wife the whole fabric of this world changed when they when Adam sinned willfully against God and it brought in death and disease so whether you believe the conspiracy theories that are out there or it really is. It was a it was a virus. That mutated and was originally went from animal to animal and then animal to person. Whatever your belief on that is and that's a whole `nother show. The truth of the matter is the reason we have disease. Illness and death is because sin entered into this world and radically transform. The face of this world. That's like big key word to all this. It was just a change. It was a radical change absolutely and it. It destroyed that that face to face relationship that we had with God. We were no longer able as Adam was to be able to be with face to face and the whole world changed because of it and now we when we see disease when we see illness infection we see a mutated virus making its way across the world we are reminded of that sin in the garden and what it costs us and and the only way we come back to that restored relationship that Adam had with With God is through the Second Adam. Jesus Christ you know getting saved and being in relationship with God through Jesus Christ doesn't prevent disease and death. We know that despite what the the the huckster on. Tbn would tell us but we know that we now will have that eternal paradise with him and be able to be in that face to face relationship once again and so when we look at with all the problems that coverted nineteen has brought into this world and all the debate surrounds. What has happened the one thing the church should be able to point to is to say. This is the result of the fall. This is evidence of sin in the World. This is a stark reminder of how we are have been separated from God because of the sin in our lives because of the sinfulness of man because of original sin that dwells in our hearts and the only way we ever make it past that is through Jesus Christ because through one man sin entered the world all men die but now through the second Adam Jesus Christ men can be made right with God. They can be restored in their relationship and they can have eternal life and that is is the chief thing that every Christian should be reminded of when we see this. There's a lot of things to discuss with regard to the this pandemic and all the things that if the fallout. That's come from it but the chief point that we should always be able to point to is this is a picture of of sin in the world and how we can be made right with Christ Absolutely and I also see it as Certainly a wakeup call on that eternal perspective of needing of recognizing death is once again at our door and and We need a savior but it also is a wakeup call in our day-to-day lives that You know it's especially here in America and throughout the West it's been easy to kind of Relax and re and take comfort in our prosperity and just a few months ago. We had roaring economy. That seemed like you know we're ready to blaze our way into a new and really cool future in economically speaking and now where we're at Great Depression levels of unemployment and an economy that's grinding to a halt and just recognizing that not only in the eternal sense but even in the day-to-day sense that we've got a rely on the Lord and in his provision. It'll it could disappear. People are learning the hard way that it can. It can go really wonderfully one day and the next day it can just be gone. Yeah absolutely and I think you know like I think you said it right. It's a up call win Su- so much of especially in Western Christianity here in America we see comfort and ease as a sign of blessing from God in fact go back to scripture when Jesus talks about how those who are rich. It was it was. It'd be easier for a camel to get through. I have a needle a literal camel. A literal eye of the needle. It would be easier for that to happen. Richmond entered into heaven. Why because he trusts in his riches he trusted his wealth and his comfort in Zee's and the apostles were were astonished they were like then who can be saved because in the mind of in their mind in the mind of the Jews of that time wealth and prosperity were assigned a blessing from God. And if if a rich man could serve his faith weren't they exactly I mean they. They were the back to the Bible people of their day but they their traditions had so corrupted the the what the scriptures taught that's why they were like the number of public enemy number one every time. Jesus was talking. You know it's like do as they say but don't do as they do why because their traditions turn them into hypocrites and so comfortable wealth and blessing or comfort and ease was seen as a blessing from God and here we in America. You know. That's kind of that's the American dream right. It's the have the to own your house. Three cars two point five kids a great career. Even for the Christian were guilty of seeing the American dream as a as a sign of blessing from God yet if if God is sovereign over all things as job even told his wife how can we receive good things not bad from God if God is sovereign over all things than blessing is found not just in comfort and ease but in the suffering in the trials because God puts us through the refiners fire. So this this is God working to expose idols of our heart. Because we're going but I can't have this and I can't go there and can't be with my friends and I can't go right. What what are you care more about? And I think he's a topic of such tension in You know we can see throughout the scripture but also you know just through general revelation in life that in many ways physical prosperity economic prosperity is a blessing in many ways. But when does it? When does it crossover from being a to becoming an idol? And Yeah go ahead and that. That's what certainly Jesus was talking about. But you know Ju- job was was wealthy. Bhai this car his day. Standard Abraham was wealthy by by his culture standard and And those were both men that were called. Righteous and Had favor with God and but they also recognized the source of their wealth and job rightly said if God gives God can take away. Yep and Abraham's righteousness wasn't in his wealth was in that he believed God. Exactly and in those instances when you look at what for example Abraham why. Why is you know Abraham wealthy because God bless him. Why because through Abraham you would have this nation you know he. He was the you know. The father of the nation of Israel. God had a plan in purpose in providing for Abraham through those times so that you would have Isaac and then providing for Isaac so that you would have Jacob and then the twelve tribes of Israel and. Then what does he do all this wealth and prosperity? What does he do? He takes them all down to Egypt and they get into slavery for four Hundred Years. You know four Hundred Years. They suffered they you know were put into bondage and not until they are delivered out from slavery are they paid their wages when God says okay now you will fund the Egyptians and he gives the Egyptians yes take the gold get Outta here. We don't care just go you know but then what happens with all that gold. At one point it becomes an idol. You know it comes the Colin Calf God. After you know dealing with that issue what is the gold and the wealth given to him for the Tabernacle for the creation of the Tabernacle? God had a purpose in that wealth and when we look at it as wealth and prosperity and comfort and ease is God's blessing on our life. We have looked at it for the wrong reasons if God has so you know been so gracious as to provide for people. Why what is the purpose that I should have that for? Is it so that I'm comfortable? Well that's what I like to think. I like to think that it's for me to go by the newest Electronic Gadget or for me to go and buy a nice new car or whatever I like to think of that but God says that's not the purpose because when I wanNA spend it on me I'm using it as an idol and when it's taken from me and I scream and cry and throw a fit about it. I've reveal that it was an idol. But if like job. God gives God takes away blessed. Be The name of the Lord. Now I recognize my i. My worship is on Christ it is on God. It is not on the things he which provided me and I think that's exactly what one of things that he is exposing through this Crisis is that he is exposing so much of everyone's dependence upon their comfort but then we get into and I think maybe we'll Kind of keep this topic partially going into the next topic. But because I think that there's a lot of crossover and in I wanted to talk about legalism and Antonio mean ISM which Kind of maybe from a little bit different angles than than the typical discussion would go. I think we're all at least somewhat familiar with what legalism is and maybe I'll get into a little bit of the details on that Just in a moment but How does this pandemic demonstrate legalism anti-communism and stuff and and There's there's a lot of it going around right now with with Churches shut down and people doing online church and stuff and a lot of people are upset. That while you know. I'm commanded to not forsake the assemblies. I really should be there. But the government's telling me not to do. I listen to. The government is AS Roma's thirteen or is this You know command. The command love my neighbor. Require me to go to church and Brits Forsake not the assembly and stuff but So as we kind of get into that you know. I'll just say right up front legalism Man Commanding things that God is not commanded would be legalism aunts and would be losing things that God has a loosed And really when we we talk about binding and loosing that's what it was all about binding losing was about laws not not demons but When when we start requiring of each other to adhere to a ruler a law that God is not handed down. That's legalism when we say the law doesn't apply to to US anymore. That law doesn't apply to you when it clearly does that's into nomadism were or anti law is And I and I've been looking at it kind of as You know Legalism can be taking. Oftentimes it can take topics that are. They're not black and white. They're they're shades of gray and it makes them black and White House. You shall do this when when it's not that clear cut and Antonio Menas Ya the opposite of that it takes black and white issue or it takes things that are black and white and it says no this is a shade of grey. You know there. There's freedom not to do that. Oh sorry I thought you were still continue. I Apologize I. I absolutely agree with you. I I think if If you want to a challenging read Sinclair Ferguson's the whole Christ deals with this issue at one point and one of the things that he says is that both the Both the Antonia and the legalist have a wrong understanding of the law. You know the the and that's kind of two sides of the same coin. One respect the the legalist thinks that he can actually achieve what the law is set out. is set before that somehow he threw that he can't earn you know some sort of grace Or or merit with God the Antonia and looks at the laws being some sort of binding Chain that he has to be loose from but the biblical understanding of the law is that it is it is God's nature revealed. I mean if you think about it God is truth. God is goodness God is you know light. He's all these things and when he says for example you'll have no other gods before me. He's revealing who he is. There is no other God so the law is is a revelation of who got is and what we're not it exposes that we are not God that we are not good and what it does. It shows us how desperately we need a savior and as a result of that we turn to Christ and repentance recognizing that in the law we could never keep it. We could never appease God and with points us to the one who did in Jesus Christ and then causes us to turn and repentance faith to Christ and then we look at the law as this beautiful thing of revealing God to me and what I'm not and now I want to be like God I want to not be God. I can't be God but I want to be like him. In his nature I want to emulate his goodness his kindness. His mercy his truthfulness. All of these things that are revealed in the law and so the the and to know me and thinks that somehow he can achieve something through the law or excuse me the legalist they me and thinks that he just needs to be broken away from it and be whatever and it's like no other to complete misunderstanding of what the law is and it's it's a tragic thing to watch people who reject the law thinking it has no binding noah impact in our lives whatsoever. But then watch somebody else. Who Thinks Oh. Everything's dependent on me proving to God. I'm worthy of it now. There's two different angles that I was seeing in the discussion on this that I think you know two things on my mind when I said let's talk a little bit about legalism and Antonio Menas them the first goes back to their last topic in this global pandemic and thing and and really about this meeting You Know I. I've been on twitter a lot less lately than normal but when I'm on there I see a lot of people getting pretty heated one way or the other when it comes to reopening churches and I mean really heated people very upset that if someone suggests that maybe the loving thing to do would be to just meet virtually for awhile so as to not put our brethren endanger of a deadly disease. Something that might not affect me physically. I could be somebody one of those ASEM dramatic people that gets this disease but never even as a sniffle or cough but I could bring it into my church and give it to somebody who could kill them and and then on the other hand you've got people that are just like no my rights my First Amendment right was is freedom of religion and freedom of assembly. I have the right to meet at my church. The constitution of the United States has no exception for global pandemic and And and and we need and and God commands us to forsake not the assembly where commanded to get together. We're commanded to practice the Lord's supper together in person. You just can't do that. Virtually and And and both sides have compelling arguments but is this a black and white issue as the legalist says or is this a girl shades of gray issue rich and I talked about this On our program and I think you point out something that's that's absolutely essential remember is that there are some things that God is absolutely clear on for example. You don't worship any other gods Sexual Morality is a sin but when we look at the book of Hebrews and says to not forsake the assembly as as is the habit of some I think there are some people that look at it as though that is such a black and white issue that if there is never an excuse for a church not to meet. There's never a reason that you can. You never go to church. There's never any mitigating circumstances and one of the examples. That rich and I used was okay. Go back to Hurricane Katrina when New Orleans was completely devastated if you wanted to employ the idea of will. There's you can never forsake the gathering of the saints so therefore we're going back to our church building which is you know you know so you know and the government has said you can't go back there because it's dangerous and you use that argument that no. I I have a First Amendment right now. I'm told not to forsake the gathering. Saints that is it quite honestly. I think that's where when God says worship God with all your heart soul mind and strength. You've abandoned your mind you. It is unsafe. And you would find an alternative and I think anybody with any common sense would recognize that. I think the problem that I that we see here. Is this kind of at least for this generation. Because they're our newspaper you. I think a lot of us think this has never happened before. And maybe on this scale like globally. It's never happened before but the idea of things being shut down is not an a historical thing you can find nineteen hundreds and earlier where cities or places across the country. Were shut down including churches because of FLU EPIDEMIC OR SOME OTHER ISSUE. We so being a little bit ignorant of history. We look at this and we go. This has never happened. This is government over reach. This can never be tolerated and we were ready to go to war and like you said there are legitimate arguments with regard to the idea of the assembly of the saints. We were't scripturally speaking we. We are not to simply say well. I can work watch church online. That's not what we're made for. God has gifted every Christian with unique gifts. Why for the edification of the saints? We come together for the one and others. We come together to edify one bill. One another to pray for one another to teach one another to worship together there. There is a reason God has created the church in such a way that we are required to come together. But that doesn't mean that you know God has has made it this rule that there isn't a period of time where a church can't meet in the four walls of a building down on fifth and main where there's a steeple acquire loft and all these things that there may be a purpose and a reason when God says don't forsake coming together because guess what we're not forsaking that but there is a purpose and a reason which God is saying this time you as a church. You're going to be challenged. How are you going to respond? Can we can we rightly? Take up issue with the government. Say New York City's Mayor Bill De Blasio certainly has a An attitude towards any religious -tarian authoritarian the only group. He doesn't do this with his Muslims interesting. But he's definitely going after Christians and Jews. Yea I think there's a genuine reason to challenge that and I. I think that there's a there's a key distinction there where I think a big mitigating with this is. How is the government treating the rest of society right? In the like they've deemed liquor stores is essential and churches non-essential. Now we roll our eyes and and and we roll. Our is because we as observant. Christians are not drunkards right so we don't we can. We can get by just fine without a liquor store. Keep in mind. You've got neighbors. That are drunkards drunkards to the point. Where they need Rehab. Was there if if they were just cold. Turkey stop drinking. They would die. And the reason why the government is said liquor stores are essential is because they're trying to not let those people die needlessly now if if they all the sudden open the bars up and they said now the bars essential to and people can gather at the bar. But you can't go to church then. We got a problem. Well I I can't see I can't see I mean I don't know I'm not asking people to like my explanation about the drunk that die. You might not like that. I'm not asking you to like that. But that's the explanation and and I can understand that I might not agree with it but I understand but once you cross the line and say okay it's okay to gather at the bar of Karachi night and lots of drinking but the church is still non essential. You can't go there now. We've got a problem. That's where I think we need to start looking at obey God not men. But we're not there yet most of the country we're not there most the world well and even in my state okay for You know I live in the State Nevada which is well known for its gambling. I am not heartbroken. The casinos are not allowing gambling. Right now but I will say it is that because of that industry has been shut down. It's going to have a major financial impact on my state like you. I don't necessarily like that. I don't like that we will one day. We're going to reopen those casinos. But I recognize that. There is a A dramatic impact that those Those casinos have on the economy. One of these days those casinos will be back open if my governor to allow the casinos to open but not the church. Yeah we would have a very different scenario but as rich said when we were talking about on our program when Sin City is shut down. It's you know it's not necessarily a persecution of the church if alike you the the casinos are are being required to stay shut down but I the same time. I think they're you know one of the other issues that we brought up on our show is that it's not going to be the same across the board for every state every county every municipality in in New York City where you've got people living on a stacked up on top of each other like cordwood. You're going to have a greater denser population and a greater chance of spread of illness. You go to Montana. Big Sky country where there's lots of open space it you know. You're not gonNA have the same density populations you're not gonNa have the same You know problem with The spread of the illness in the same way. So there has to be because if you live in a place where you're no joke you're more likely to die of a bear attack than from the corona virus. I you know. I do think it might be unreasonable. But you're not allowed to have church. Yeah and it'd be a perfectly good reason for a church to take issue with the local government on because there's a lot of those places are have the type of governments that where maybe the governor says. You can't have church. But the sheriff that has to enforce that edict has said. You know what not doing that you said. Don't do it but I'M GONNA be down at my church so don't worry. I'm not going to arrest you and I think there was even a An article recently and I wish I could remember exactly where it was that where someone called on church because they were meeting and the cop showed up and he goes. Oh no you're fine. I just wanted to come in here. Good Gospel preaching. He got it too but it again. It's it's every area is gonNA be a little bit different and what I think is Christians which is getting back to what we were talking about a minute ago the kind of legalistic mindset that we can have or even do you can even be ano- omen in this and say well you don't need to be going to church to be a Christian tells me you haven't really read your but but you can have a legalistic mindset in the sense that well every church everywhere has to believe of how I'm dealing with this issue if your church in your area has an has a shutdown order and you're meeting online and you're meeting through zoom and stuff and you're able to worship and you're like we're going to love our neighbors we're not GONNA put put people at risk. We've got elderly people in our church we've got we're in a community where this could spread easily. So we're not gonNA meet but yet there's another church in another area that goes. We don't have this problem. This is an issue and I can't believe you wouldn't be concerned about Religious Liberty. You can have that legalistic mindset because you're adding to someone else your particular understanding of how this works and I think we sometimes and this is so bad when it comes to social media one of the Baynes of Christian existence in my opinion and it's be a blessing it really can't because guess what we're going to use social media for this show off but one of the existing block button yet block mute unformed there follow. They're all great. They're great tools use on follow and then if the person keeps getting re tweeted in the my time line and I just don't want to see them anymore. Then that's when the block comes. Oh yeah one of the most. Freeing experiences of my life was about five years ago when I went. I don't need to see all this started. Removing it from my time line unfortunately some of it's still shows up but I'm not a big blocker. I've never been a blocker and I've always been of the mindset that like well the one thing that I've Long said we'll get you a block is if you block me because I figured all right. You've made us. You've you've decided. I can't see your timeline. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa return the favor you you're not going to spy on me and follow me. Follow me around. Nitpick poke at Lee. I'll give you a block for that. Yeah but my mind is is becoming a little bit more blocked friendly lately. Because sometimes I'll follow somebody and a lot of times that's enough just on following and I'm happy to just go in there but when I keep seeing common followers re tweet that person into my time line or or quote to eat them into my time line. That's where I think a block fits my needs really well and well and and it's really. It's twitter actually that that had gotten me. Kinda worked up this legalism issue and I think we've talked about a lot of most people condemn understand but the thing that really has gotten me worked up. It's a combination of this pandemic but also if you go back to go back to the last presidential election there's been you know and I've talked about it a few times about how I think the weather you're alike the president or you don't like the President I disagree. I can agree. You know. That's fine. I love you brother. I leave it to your conscience to decide how you feel about him or any other politician on a you know within reason. I think some politicians are Christians are should be hands off. You shouldn't should sporting those people but but I think our president here in the United States is is someone that I think. You've got liberty to to to decide within your conscience in your mind. How are you going to approach that? That politician and I've changed. I've been on both sides. Like him dislike him. But I've been consistent in that I don't WanNa break fellowship with you because you disagree with me especially because I changed my mind and now all of a sudden I would have been a tight spot after having changed my mind. If now I'm GonNa go to the other side and say you know I was hard on you but now Now I'm on your side where I think this ties in with legalism is I mean some of it is overt. It's it's flat out you know you're not saved if you've vote for this guy you're not saved if you didn't vote for this guy you've got people anathematise. Ingham each other over there but the angle that has gotten me really upset is not that overt anathemas -ation over your vote. It's more subtle than that and it's more it's it's more manipulative than that. And and I I see legalism I I saw with this presidential thing the president but I see it in this pandemic and church closures and I'm starting to see it and other issues to where people just they're like. Well you know it's okay. You're know you're still my brother if you disagree with me but does your view really glorify God as much as you want to. I mean I know you really want to glorify God does Europe. You've really glorify God as much as as the other side's view it's kind of that little subtle with like and and I and I'm not saying every time somebody says does does your view glorify God that's manipulative legalism. But that's that's where I see manipulative legalism expressed and I think that's where it's you know one of the most common ways we can examine whether or not we're being manipulative is is what is the reason. I asked that question if if I am just so dead. Set that I'm right and you're wrong and I have to play that card to make you. Oh then I think I'm using it for the wrong reasons. I think there are legitimate reasons as you as you were pointing out to ask is a particular belief or position. One that glorifies God but we also have to be willing to recognize You were mentioning politics. Different Christians drawing from Biblical principles from an Orthodox. Use are sometimes going to have differing views on a political matter. Now I would argue. There's never a good reason for example for a Democrat Party candidate because of their public stance on things like abortion and homosexuality and stuff you might have. Which would be the rare rare gem rather than the tr- the rule. Maybe the exception. You might have a Democrat who opposes those things and holds too maybe certain political views that are not consistent with the constitution. But they are they are in favor of godly moral values. That that's going to be really hard needle to find in my opinion but if you can have been driven out there they were there when when you were in our kids. They were there they were there. They're much much more difficult to find out for the most part for the most part. So if you could find someone and you presented that to me and there was a consistent record I could say okay. I can see where you're coming from and maybe I'm okay on that issue but generally speaking I'm not I'm going to look at it and go. There's there's a clear biblical reason why you should not be voting for this person but then you take our current president who has a history with regards to his arrogance is pride. His his treatment of women in the past and so different Christians are going to look at it and go well because of all those past behaviors. I I can't imagine any Christian should ever vote for him and others who say I agree? His past behavior is reprehensible however since president. This is what I've observed and so therefore this is why I believe I can vote for this individual. That's where we should be able to say. Okay Different Christians. Falling on different sides of that discussion drawing from Biblical principles. They should be able to do that. But if you if you take the stance no Christian should not vote for this person or no Christian should ever vote for this person and it's not because of clear cut support for a anti biblical things such as abortion or or homosexuality or anti-god stance if your if your attitude is well in the past. He's but now he's and you're using that as the dividing line. Yeah that's where you're getting into that issue of legalism and one of the problems. I think is Christians. Is that you mentioned earlier. It is really really easy to find the egregious legalist. But how did the agrees legalist get to where he was? He didn't jump on that path. He didn't go from. Orthodoxy to legalism in one leap. He started somewhere. He started deviating from the path somewhere. And we as Christians Newark. That's true too but I mean just just from understanding for us as Christians. There are ditches that if we're not careful we veer even a little bit to the left or to the right. We're going to go into them. And legalism is especially for the Orthodox Christian is one in my opinion that could become very very easy to jump into because we are so concerned about the word of God what it says what we should be doing honoring God and we can easily start to step just off that path to where we mandate that you believe as I do practice as I do. Vote as I do decide whether or not my church should meet in person or not as I do and we may not become an egregious legalist but we start veering off that path and if we are not careful to do that sell Solid self examination and ask. Why are we doing these things and checking our heart? I think that's where the danger the danger lies. And like you say I think twitter twitter Christian question. Twitter is got a lot of us not realizing that we are closet legalists. Well I tell you were running long now. Definitely for my Sean Probably years is wall but Kind of going back to. I think the both both of these two topics while then and also bring them back that law of Christ into with a tweet that that I mentioned before we started and it was specifically talking about the church's reopening things. And and do we. Do we listen to our civic leaders who say no don't open your churches and I wish I could remember who it was. I thought day before somebody tweeted that in many ways this is not a Romans. Thirteen issue it's a Romans fourteen issue and and that definitely ends up coming in Romans. Fourteen definitely comes in with this This legalism thing and in And I think the the Your vote I think is a is a is a big thing and that we we need to carry out the law of Christ and loving our neighbor by allowing them to listen to their conscience and and and not passing judgment on each other. You know I told you. My view has changed on on a particular president. But one thing that hasn't been that. I don't think it's worth divining over and even before the election. I had great respect looking to grace community church in in you know John. Macarthur between Macarthur Phil Johnson. They both have very different views. I mean they're both elders at the same church. So it's not like a big theological difference but Phil Johnson was like no absolutely not. I cannot vote for this man for many reasons. That you articulated but John MacArthur said. Well I'm not really vote for him. I'm voting for his coalition. I'm voting for the party. You know that. That's how we do our votes here in America as we We HAVE TWO PARTIES. And we've ultra parties have put up and and I can't vote for the other party so therefore for that party aren't and they both had very good solid reasons Agree or disagree. They at least had good reasons why they stood on whatever side of that Divide that they had and the best of friends so I mean if they can do it we also be able to do it to say okay. You don't you don't like this politician and maybe it's not the president. Maybe it's your local congressman or mayor or something There's definitely room. That's this is I see. This is definitely a shades of gray jr as long as we're not talking about murdering babies and You know Other issues that are egregiously violations of scripture it You know I. I look on that particular side of the political as on a gospel issue. Not that that that scripture commands. Meena vote for them but when I look at it as like one side of the political will do everything in their power to persecute me so the best of their ability. Shut Down My church To to to take away my rights to worship and fellowship and the other side might not help me. But they're certainly not getting in my way and I definitely see that with this president. I don't believe he's a saved. I don't believe he's my brother in Christ but he certainly not getting in the way of Generally speaking of my right to worship. And that's that's a big deal to me and I think one thing that really helped him. I'd go back to the Many times but I did a show with PAT eavesdrop on the two kingdoms and just seeing our civil kingdom is completely separate from are redemptive kingdom really helps a lot and seeing enemy you work in that kingdom and seeing that the that the God ordained purpose of that kingdom is just to To Minimize Evil To to restrain evil. Are these people restraining evil or they restraining evil better than their opponent would restrain evil. That's a big deal. Who's GonNa who's GonNa do the better job of restraining evil right now that that helps them for my vote? A little better too. Yeah I might not like them. I don't mean nothing. Am I think that their personalities? But sometimes I'll write disgusting. But are they restraining evil? Are they staying out on my way so I can worship peace? Yeah no and I absolutely agree with that and I think that's one of those things where you know. We are to demonstrate that we are Christ by the love. We have one for another and yes. Love is corrective love brings a rebuke when it's necessary but love also allows for different people to have differing views on certain issues. No we cannot have a different issue on the murdering babies every you. God is clear on that but how I share my vote there. I think I'm by being a government mandate to meet virtually as opposing person. Those are things that were Christians in different environments are going to have differing perspectives on and showing love is yes expressing your perspective but also listening to an understanding why someone believes differently and giving them the freedom to do that as opposed to hold to my view or. I don't think you're a Christian and that's where I think and this is why this is one of the reasons I say. Social is the bane of Christian existence because it social media is one of those things where it's like. I get to be an expert because I heard myself. So and you have to bow the the The the the power of my wisdom. If you don't want anathematise you by blue but I'm able to be loud therefore I need to be heard. Yes exactly and so. It's it it. It is a great tool but it is a dangerous tool and it is not always served us well because where you and I can talk like this and we have a conversation and what people don't realize is we're we have the skype video up so we could see each other's face even right now. We don't communicate body language. We can communicate tone of voice. We can communicate a lot of things that a conversation actually allows you to do. The Internet doesn't and it takes all those things away in strips to work the letters on a stream and it makes it so hard to actually be loving allowing for those things and that's where that ditch of legalism Ranta nomadism can easily be developed. Because we forget that's a brother and sister in Christ and we want to remove them from the because they're not agreeing with me so we want to remove that possibility so I don't have to show love I don't have to show respect and it's very dangerous place to be That's such a key. That's why I kept wanting to come back to that. Love of Christ thing almost do they call that our topic. You know the law of Christ and maybe I'll do that sometime to a show on the law of Christ and and how do we carry that out in so many different different ways but you know even as you were talking I I keep thinking about you know i? It's so sometimes I get on the politics. It's hard to get off You know we're talking about how we handle that. And I I think that the shades of grey can can be deeper than even we want us. Acknowledge sometimes in that like you were talking about. I don't think it's ever right to vote for Democrat for the most part. I agree with you now if if you got saved a week before the election you've been a Democrat all your life otherwise and you're you've now been in the faith for a week and your gravitating towards the at least what the Democrats say there for like feeding the poor and You know helping the little guy and all stuff now. I don't believe for a minute that that's what they're about. But that's what they say they're about and that's what their supporters support them for being a week old in the Lord. I probably will let it go. That voted for for a Democrat. Now have you been You've been saved for ten fifteen twenty years and your vote in that way. Now I I'm going to have a different stance on that. I'm GonNa Wanna I think your conscience hasn't grown in that time that you've been in the Lord absolutely And I'm GonNa WanNa do what I can to disciple you in a loving way to to to sharpen you as iron sharpens iron. But I'M NOT GONNA I'm not GonNa anathematise the week old Christian the way I would call you've been saved for thirty years and you're you you stand on the Democrat Party platform firm top to bottom You know that's the problem so and I think that there are so many other areas and and I think that Romans fourteen was good but also you know meet sacrifice. Titles kind of thing you know. It's it's really. There are a lot of times when the loving thing to do is it might be frustrating. Somebody disagrees with you but the loving thing to do is to just let somebody practice what their conscience tells them. And if you think it's wrong that's what discipleship is about. Discipleship is about teaching and walking people through the scripture and iron sharpening iron and building each other up not tearing each other down that well. You don't do things the way I like for you. You really glorify God in what you're doing then. Yeah No. I absolutely agree. Brother absolutely agree and One of the things that these discussions do is causes us to check our hearts and causes us to think biblically. Why am I doing? What am I doing? What does the Scripture you know? Command me on these things where areas that I can have the freedom to be in different. You know different view than my brother or sister yet. Still call them my brother and sister. And that's what we rich and I've always tried to do with. Our show is is to encourage Christians to think from that perspective To look at everything from a biblical perspective in totality. Not just in one particular issue though that is very important but look at it in totality what is the commander scripture throughout all of it and the Law of Christ commands to love my brother and sister in Christ and I may have to be rebuking but I can also be an encouragement and I think it's real easy to take the rebuking side. It's not always easy for us to do the encouraging side well and then so many topics like can you regardless of which side you take. Can you be doing it in love? Because that's really. That's that's that's the important thing you know. Are you staying away from the Physical Church? Because you're loving your fellow Churchgoer and you don't want to get sick or are you insisting on meeting because you love them and and you want to feed and nourish them in the word. They'll both of those things can be very loving things. Regardless of the circumstances of your locality they can both be very loving ways to take. And that's really the way to handle it so well. Chris thanks so much for coming on with me for episode one forty five but also for having me as guest co in on Voice of reason and Shirley was a a joy to to meet with you again now was yeah. It was awesome. It was wonderful. I love having you on our show for once and and being part of yours is again I love these kind of conversations between brothers in Christ. And it's what we always strive to do is to have these kind of conversations so I'm grateful for have you coming on and inviting me on your program and Thank you for as possible cool and You can find both of our shows. If you're listening to Chris Show you can find mine at the Christian. Podcast community and likewise. If you're listening equatorial radio you can find voice voice of reason at the Christian Cobb Pike Community. How else can they find you? you can find us on our website at slave to the king. Dot Com and You can also find Our show page for facebook is On facebook you just look up of reason. Radio make sure you get the voice of reason radio full title because we discovered after we created the program there are atheist programs that like to voice a reason so oops bubbalicious of course so Just make sure you you you look for it there but if you go to sleep to the King Dot Com you can find our social media links on there as well cool and I'm at Echo. Zoe Dot Com. Ach Z. O. E. Dot Com. That's from the Greek. If you come check out the website you'll see where that comes from. Its but Goal thanks Chris. Thank you very much appreciate you. Okay so I hope you enjoyed that conversation that Andy and I had It was wonderful to be honest program again. It was wonderful to have him on with US and in with this program Really enjoy being on with him. I love the conversations that we have together and I love the fact that this time you guys get to listen to it here so I hope you enjoyed it. Hope you were edified by it. I hope it means a lot as much to use it to us to do and I hope that you take what we discussed and take it out there and do something with that. Do what we encouraged everybody to do to show grace to show love to show mercy to one another even when we are having important conversations and talking about different things in the Christian faith and how we live and how we practice so I hope that was really beneficial to you really recommend you at. Andy's Program Echoes Radio. Into your podcast. Rotation look it's a monthly program. It's not weekly like us. You're you're not going to be like me going hundred podcasts. In my list what do I? Listen to You can incorporate program easily into your rotation and I really think you'll you'll learn a lot from him. I think you'll learn a lot from the people he has on the show. And Hey he's a fellow member of the Christian podcast community so you you know you're getting good stuff when you when you get something from Christian podcast community and we set it on the show. Go draw take the CPI feed and drop it into your podcast and you can pick stuff at random to listen to and you might find a program that you really like. Maybe not. Everything's on their use your cup of tea. Maybe there's certain topics. She just rather not listen to that. That's fine but you're always gonna find something that you know is solid. We've talked about it before there's a vetting process. It's not just anything with the label of Christian. It's better than going into the apple podcasts or Google podcast apps and hoping that what you hit is maybe sort of Christian so hope you enjoyed it. Thank you for being with us and again so sorry. Rich couldn't be with us this week. look forward to having him back next time. God bless you guys good night? We'll see you then.

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