Effectively Wild Episode 1376: Root, Root, Root for the Run Differential
Low end welcome to episode thirteen seventy six effectively wild a baseball podcast from Penn graphs, presented by our patriots Porter's. I in Penn Lindberg of the ringer joined by Miller of ESPN Sam, I Chris sale had seventeen strikeouts through seven innings and records. Did you get your hopes up to me the process of writing about twenty one K outings has really helped me to route more efficiently? I think because it focused my attention. And I think it was the play index that we did probably in the episode nine hundred or so that really did the key thing is, of course pitches. You don't have twenty seven ounce to work with necessarily, and you don't need twenty-seven outs necessarily, but you do have something like one hundred twenty pitches with maybe a little bit of margin on either side, and so you basically need to be pitching it six pitches per strikeout to. Have a reasonable chance in sale had eight strikeouts through three innings with forty seven pitches, which is on pace and I was sitting in a piano lesson waiting room and couldn't tweet out an alert at that point. But a few minutes later, he had like seven pitch at bat against Charlie Blackmon who I think grounded out after foul tipping a pitch into an out of a mitt. And at that point, then it became a sort of a the strain and then the next batter, I think had like a five or six pitch at that didn't strike out, and that was pretty much it. I quit. I quit watching. I mean I didn't quit watching, but I quit considering a chase. It was no longer a chase in my opinion, so they took him out after hundred eight pitches and seven innings and then the bullpen blew the game. They went text innings, so perhaps, they regretted it, but perhaps not because their priority is keeping Chris sale healthy. And it looks like Chris sale is good. And it looks like the Red Sox are good of the early season. Worries about both the. This things not being true. Have eased up somewhat Chris, as less couple starts have had pretty extrordinary strikeout at walk yet. Yeah. So I know his velocities, not all the way back, but he's making it work. He I mean the theoretically, he could have struck out the next four batters on twelve pitches and done it. But I mean that's very unlikely in he, he strange to say of guy who had seventeen strikeouts in no walks, but he wasn't even leading the time. Right. And so made sense in the moment to pull them after one hundred eight pitches. Twenty was was was a reasonable thing. If if you thought twenty is worth chasing than maybe you keep him in for one hundred twenty two pitches 'cause decent Jhansi do that. But I don't think twenty is worth chasing. I'm not impressed by twenty I only want twenty one. So I thought every everybody behaved more or less prominently here. All right. You have any better. I just want to correct something. My process of determining whether Dylan Floro had been good. Was somewhat misinformed Dylan Floro, did not that twice against John Ryan. Murphy this year he batted last year against Erik Kratz. So he was in that article, but he was not the pitcher that I had been thinking of, I believe Brock Stewart was that pitcher Brock Stewart was not on our list because he has only played three games for the dodgers in which he gave up eight runs. And so just just to clarify that. I think I think, in every single one of my processes, I said, at least one untruth, which is kind of what's going to happen, when you're trying to remember what a middle reliever did in the fourth game of the season to try to do something that you don't actually know about a pitcher, who you know, almost nothing about, but mostly true stuff and Dylan floor. I think the process, more or less still accurate. Anyway. Dylan floro. Yeah. So I brought this up on the ringer Moby show yester. Today, but I have to bring it up again, I talked to Michael Barone about how bad the Marlins have been. They've been really historically terrible thus far and I focused physically on their offense, which has been horrendous. And then after we did that segment, the Marlins went out and got shut out by the race. So now the numbers are even worse than they were. When I talked about it yesterday. The Marlins as a team our ten in the thirty that is, of course, to fifty winning percentage, which puts them on pace for forty one wins, if you round up and according to their run differential way are, if you round up from forty point two five forty point five rate would be we would they would do when half of two gates. That's right. So, yeah. Yeah. So that, that gets into the metaphysical question of whether point five should round up around down. Yes of not share. But they're run differential is that of a nine thirty one team which is that's two twenty five winning percentage. That would be a third. Eighty six when TV and that does round down. So they've been really bad, and that's not surprising because they're the Marlins in they're playing in a division where the other teams are all competitive in our beating up on the Marlins all year but they're starting rotation is actually pretty credible. They're, they're pretty good. They've got Pablo Lopez and they've got Jose Arena and they've got other guys I'm forgetting right now Caleb. Smith is it's maybe the best of the bunch, he's been pretty good this year but beyond that, it's a sorry group and the bullpen has been a disaster. But the offense right now, the Marlins as a team are hitting to eighteen to eighty one three. Oh, seven they have twenty four home runs, which is by far the fewest in the league and that gives them a sixty four WRC plus which put that into perspective, the all-time worst team WC plus in a full season in baseball's modern era back to nineteen one is the nineteen twenty posts. Sale athletics, who had sixty seven WRC plus, so right now the Marlins through a quarter of the season or so have had, what would be the worst offense ever in a full season. Of course, it is easy to be terrible or great over quarter of a season or easier. If you look at the top of that all time, leaderboard, the two thousand eighteen Astros with a one thirty five WRC plus would be the best offense ever, which is not that inconceivable, given that the two thousand seventeen World Series, winning Astras had, I think the fourth best defense of all time by that measure, the, the best other than the Ruth, Gehrig Yankees. So the esters are good. The Marlins are incredibly inept and I don't know if it's going to get much better from here, their best hitter, I think by far so far there really only above average hitter. Is Neil Walker, and it just falls off from there. And it can we can we talk about their second best header because they have. Well, they have our own twenty two players have batted, at least once twenty two okay, five of those are pitchers, so, but I'm going to include them because including them can only benefit them and I wanna give them the benefit of that. So twenty two hitters with at least one plate appearance. The second best hitter in any number of appearances has a three forty four slugging percentage and a sorry, three forty two slugging percentage and a six eighty three. Oh, PS. That is backup catcher, Chad. Wallich. So he's the second best the six eighty three. Oh, PS, and that's bad. It's really bad. Is there any I mean obviously, you'd expect someone to be better than that. But like, I don't know who you'd expect to be good like who is actually the second best hitter on this team. Is it? It's probably Castro or Brian Anderson. Brian Anderson was good last year. Yeah. Gosh, it's just it's not a good team and it's not a good Kupa hitters and the ones who are kind of good may be traded at some point, like Neil Walker go somewhere. And if Castro or I don't know, Granderson recovers at some point, maybe they would go somewhere. So don't see it getting better. I mean, I don't know that they have prospects who are ready right now to make a major difference. Like they started the season with Lewis Brinson again, who was terrible again and was sent down. So I don't know that help is really on the way. And yeah, it's, it's not going to get better than the so the Marlins generally have been something of light hunt. Baseball and have been very hard on their fans who are still sticking with them. And I don't think it's good that the Marlins are this terrible. But it is a someone who is at least captivated by extremes and historic performances and novelty. This is going to give like last year's Oriole. So if a run for their money when it comes to the worst teams we've seen in some time, it's going to be a long season for the Marlins, and it's not a particularly fun team either. It's not like a bad fun team beyond some of those starting pitchers. I mentioned so sorry Marlins fans. But this is gonna be replacement level sub replacement level will see how low they can go. Yeah. Right, wealth. That might be the last time we talked about the Marlins for a while now. So just want to check in on them, we're going to do some emails today and presumably a stat blast. So. Yeah. So I will start this with a question from Henry Clark, patriots supporter, who was nice enough to mail me, eight nineteen Fifty-three, Ned, Garver tops card this week. That is not why I'm answering his question. Although thank you, Henry. That was very kind. He says lest Friday may tenth Jack Petersen. Hit a home run. His second of the game that stat cast recorded as having exit lusty of one hundred thirteen. Point seven mouse brower Anna on Changle of twenty two degrees. This home run travel to reported distance of four hundred two feet that same night. Ronald kunia junior hit a home run. That stat cast recorded as having exit lusty of one hundred twelve point seven miles per prior, so one miles per hour, less and a launch angle of Twenty-one degrees, want greet less nearly identical in exit lusty launch angle to Peterson's bomb. But this home run travel to report a distance of four hundred sixty six feet. I am about as far from being a physicist, as you can be, and still be a functioning member of society. But none of what I can remember or confined about projectile distances and vectors and stuff can explain almost sixteen percent disparity in the flight paths of two such similar projectiles Peterson pulled his to right in Los Angeles and kunia hit his to center in Arizona. But unless the Diamondbacks turned off the humidor, and had a bunch of jet engines blowing straightaway, the different seems hard to account for can you please take a minute to explain the forces that so radically altered, the flights of such seemingly similar balls? I assume. Environmental factors have an impact, but maybe spend or maybe the ball's juiced inconsistently. And if distance is only indirectly linked to exit Leo, and launch angle. Are they really the best measures we could use for bad at balls? So I did ask someone about this and have an answer from him. But you care to hazard, a guess, or hypothesis. No all all mention. Yes. So, yes. The answer to that. I'll mention two things one is that in the baseball prospectus book extra innings from maybe eight years ago or so. Jay Jaffe road along look at the home run era of the late nineties and early two thousand and whether steroids could explain it and he talks a lot about ball composition and the range of acceptable. Baseball's within majorly. Baseball's regulations or standards that they give to manufacturers and I don't remember speaking off the top of my head now. So I'm not going to get into specifics. And you probably since you've researched this all and since we all have read a lot more about it since then we all know a little bit more about this now. But the I just remember the gap between what a ball at the low rain, low end of the range, and all the high end of the range, which are both they both could theoretically be used in the same baseball game of me radically it was mass. Like way, more than you would think like I want to say it was thirty. Yeah. Yeah. And so that has been something that I occasionally think about with, with wonderment thinking how much of the sport that we think we're seeing is a variation within the balls, but mostly I have to suppress that memory because I assume that it's a not the case. Well, is that it's not the case that there is that much variation, particularly within batches or within seasons, and it would be kind of the fun of that idea wears off quickly. If you start wondering about it pretty early if it's if it's not true. So that's one hot hypothesis that it's that it's the whatever we're calling that the second one, which I'm almost certain is wrong. But if you just think about what a I mean a baseball traveling straight four hundred feet travels. Well, maybe it goes, you know, sixty five feet high. And so it's traveling in a line four hundred feet, but also sixty. Five feet high so up in the down. And then there's a way that you could calculate how many feed it actually travel, right? Like think about planes that travel from here to Japan. They don't go straight across the latitude, because you end up having to travel farther than if you go up to the North Pole and then back down. Right. That or not to the North Pole but up to a higher latitude because you're not you're not traveling as much around the, the sphere of the earth zone. I don't know if that's applicable here. But I think about the actual distance traveled of a four hundred foot baseball is not four hundred feet in space. It's, it's like I don't know hundred ten feet or something like that, right up and then down and then out. And if you add a third dimension to that of a ball, that is hooking or slicing it travels, it has to travel even farther in real terms to get to four hundred feet. It has to go up and over and out and so to travel, four hundred feet if you had like a frisbees hook on it than it. Would have to travel, maybe, you know, hypothetically light six hundred feet or something like that. And so, in theory, you might think that a ball that goes straight would travel further with the same energy than a ball that hooks or slices that has the same energy would travel from home plate right now. That's complicated by the effects of backspin and topspin in loft and things that I don't really know much better than Henry does. But I that would be the question. I would ask a physicist, if that could explain something well, I have has to physicist and launch angle and exit. Plus, the tells you the vertical ankle and tells you how hard it was hit. It does not tell you where on the field the spray angle, the horizontal angle, and that can be important. So I sent this question to David Kagan, who's a physics professor at CS you Chico? He writes a big twist in this podcast. You send it to not Alan. Nathan, right. Yeah, we got a couple of physicists, we can call on, but David Kagan he writes for the hardball times frequently about the physics baseball. So he says what a wonderful question to answer it. We could go through the usual suspects, like elevation and weather. It was eighty three degrees at game time in Phoenix, but only sixty three degrees in LA. However, the higher temperature on the explains. A paltry five feet of the difference. The wind might be a factor, and indeed, the roof was open that day in Arizona win was thirteen miles per hour. But the stadium is very tall. Even with the roof off. So there isn't enough wind inside to affect the flight of the ball, much in southern California. It was still evening with the gentlest breeze of only two miles per hour at most we're looking at perhaps another five feet. The humidity at game time was only forty percent at chase field. What was around seventy percent at town? But this would at best explained on the single lousy foot of the difference next, the elevations difference Phoenix's thousand eighty two feet while the bar park in LA is up on a hill. Two hundred sixty seven feet above sea level. This is. Another minor affect for feet. And of course, chase field has humidor as David Kagan wrote about recently for the time. So it seems that elevations and whether or not the culprits. Well, what does explain the sixty three foot difference between the two homers? The spin on the ball a kunia smack the ball, just to the left of center field while Peterson launched his ball down the right field line. Every good outfielder knows that balls. Hit down the line tend to veer off toward fell territory while balls hit towards center. Don't fade as much this is all due to the fact that the ball bet collision imparts almost no side, spin to the ball when the bat is level and perpendicular to the trajectory of the incoming pitch. However, if the baton ball, collide when the bat is not perpendicular and level side spinnakers, there's more side, spin when the policy hit further away from centerfield estimating the spray angle off the bat and putting in all the weather elevation spin. My calculations give four hundred sixty four feet for kunas Homer and four hundred two feet for Peterson's. So we aren't looking at some stat cast data era line. Peter. Hit a slice while kunia. Drove it right down the fairway. I get it right. I think so more or less. He didn't mention planes, flying over the Arctic circle or anything, but I think you kinda did. So the, the concept would be that they did travel roughly the same distance, just not in Peterson's was not in one direction it, I think, well, okay. So more of its energy, moving laterally. That's what I said. So if that's. That's. I don't know if it's that the difference between the spin though. I mean, anecdotally at least backspin will get you more carry and topspin will sort of push the ball down. So I don't know that yet talking about if I think that is largely what we're talking about. Okay. 'cause Peterson pulled it. Yes. All right. Yeah. Was okay. Unsatisfying. Okay. That's it. But yeah, I shouldn't be, we've got the answer to the question that I was interested. In hearing answered it would have been satisfying. If you had not asked me, I to put my own self on the life. Okay. Grant says last night, the Mariners seriously piled on some runs in the late innings against my Janke. This got me thinking, I already knew the game was over so in the long run all this affected was the team's run differential should I be rooting for the team to keep that number up. Certainly, you want your team to have the best run differential since. That's the name of the game at the same time, it felt weird to think about run differential as rooting category. Counter intuitively. I wondered if I should be rooting for the Yankees to win, but in a manner, which is Representative of the team's ability, so that they could be adequately assessed that felt silly and my mind started doing loops donate want players to overperform don't I root for over performance every day. What about how this affects the front office would actually want the team to underperform in order to incentivise Steinbrenner to better the team so long as? Underperformance didn't jeopardize the division that the Mariners do the Yankees a favor by getting Yankees Twitter. Riled up, of course. No data driven team is going to be duped by such basic measure, but you get the point should we be rooting for or against rub. Differential, does it matter. I have I have gone through much of this process before gone to some of those same places. It's a tricky one, isn't it? The other thing is that, that I feel like maybe a factor is that you want your players to be confident and feel like they're doing well. And so if a loss is baked in, or even a win is baked in, but they're coming off a four for five day, maybe that helps them maybe that's something that carries over. It's certainly to get away from the question of what is going to affect the future? What is going to be a cause of future goodness for your team simply as a as a fact, if you're rooting. So basically, you're you root for your team to win. But you also route for your team to be good, and that's kind of an ongoing process that takes place all all the time. You just like you want to be like, he want to be born to a team that is good or for that team to, to somehow be good. You're sorta stuck with them. And there's a luck factor as a fan of, like, do I have a good team? And it's kind of a constant like you're, you're always kind of assessing, whether it is a. Team. Or is not a good team in that affects your feelings about that team. And so if they have a good run differential, because they are actually good that seems like the sort of thing that would make you happy, regardless of whether it changes anything for the future. Right. Yeah. If that makes any sense at all. I mean, the nice thing about all this is that you rooting doesn't do anything, and so you don't actually have to worry that, that much about whether you're rooting wrong, I go through this, now I have through my life, I have gone through this a lot, where I have like maybe you turn on a gate. So my TV my parents TV. It used to be that you turn it on. I think this was how TV's all were you turn it on, and the audio would begin immediately, but the picture would take like like two and a half seconds. And so sometimes you'd have two and a half seconds of hearing action, but not knowing what team was was batting or who doing this also happens a lot when you turn on a game on the radio and you might pick it up mid. Play and the ball is in play or the pitch has been thrown, but you don't know who's batting and you end up rooting for those two and a half seconds for what turns out to be the wrong team and that feels terrible. That's a that's just an awful feeling. You feel like you've done like you are asked to do so little in this game as a fan and, you know you did the one thing you had to do wrong. It's on own-goal. Yeah. But the nice thing to remind yourself is that it doesn't matter like they don't know what you what is going on in your heart. And so, I think whatever feels comfortable for you, as a fan is, is probably safe that said, I root for run differential. I think that the there are there are some small cases that he makes that, it, it could be damaging if it gives a team may be an over inflated sense of themselves or vice versa. They might improv help hurt their ability to assess, but it probably doesn't hurt their ability to assess because the run differential is. The thing that they should probably be using to assess now it gets a little tricky if it's a seventeen to one game and Scott King is pitching land. It becomes totally in authentic baseball, and nothing that anybody in your lineup does is in any way, suggestive of their baseball talent. And then if they if you hang eight on Scott King Ray than that does affect your undifferentiation, it does affect your stats, and it can mislead people who are trying to assess how good the team is so that becomes a little bit of an issue. And then the question is, do you root for Scott King re to get in the game so that you can run up the run differential and feel good about yourself and people will think that you're like that you can win arguments with your friend, who's like mine teams better, in your mind, teams run differential, and like that's a fun argument. So I don't know that there's an exact answer. I think that probably different people have different comfort levels, but I do and always have rooted secondarily for run differential. If the game is is is done at the most basic level, if you're a fan and you're watching. A game through the lens of your phantom than you want your team to do. Well, it's always the happiest outcome is for your team to score and the other team, not to score. I guess at a certain point maybe the game is just so at a hand that you want it to end because you want to do something else, and there's something to be said for close games just from an entertainment standpoint. It's kind of more fun to watch a three two win than it is to watch a ten one win in most cases. And I think in the playoffs often when I used to really brute for teams I would like blow outs, actually because I would just get so nervous and it would cause so much anxiety for there to be a close game that actually mattered that I didn't really want it to be that close. But in general closest good. But you also want your team to do. Well, you wanna see your players do? Well, every little hit and run scored brings you some little dopamine bursts. So, yeah, of course you want that. And I think the fact that it then. Augurs well for the rest of the team and tells you something about the quality of that team. I think just adds to it. There's more value there. It's interesting because I've been thinking about this question the whole time as do still root for your team to score six runs when it's down by sixteen. But the I mean obviously the flip side is still refer your team to score six runs when they're up by sixteen and that. Yeah. Has all I love a big blow out. I mean, I've always wanted to see the biggest blowout possible without a doubt in any team in any sport that I'm rooting for. I love a blow out this also brings to mind because I like to see the stats I like to see stats. I like to wake up and see, like I like the aunt, to be the opposite of the Marlins experience when you open the daily paper has a nine year old and you scan your team's stats. You already know the record. But you look at their stats and you go is a good team like look at that bullpen. We'll get the bullpens only allowed three runs in the last week and a half. Like there's something to that, that is satisfying as a fan and you want that to be the case. There's also. Oh, reminds me of something that we have occasionally mentioned on this show, which someday, I'm going to write about. It's one of my favorite things about baseball history, which is that in the very old days. You batted in the bottom of the ninth, even if you were winning, and I've always wondered, what is that? What was that bottom of the ninth inning light? How was laid out and why did they do it because they were too dumb. The note is what was happening. Or did they get something out of it? And I think they did get something out of it. I think that they're the what we're watching is partly the suspense of competition. But partly the act of baseball played well. And you wanna see the guys that you like playing baseball. Well, regardless of the stakes because there's something aesthetically beautiful something impressive about every good baseball action that you see, no matter what this is this came up on a piece, I wrote a few years ago, about walk-off triples, which should be basically impossible, or should basically, never happen. Because if the winning run is scoring what are you doing going from second third or run cannot by definition possibly affect anything, and all you're doing is possibly getting thrown out in one of the theories, I had for why walkup triples happened is because players respect the aesthetic purity of baseball act done. Well, and so a walkup triple is essentially like in, in a way it's like the same thing it's stat padding after the outcome. Of the game is already certain, and I'm pro. Yeah, I am too. Maybe there's a point at which it cheapens things or you want almost mercy rule. But I don't know in the matrix. I don't think there is a mercy real zinc. You always want your team to pile on, probably because there's never such a gap between the best team. And the next best teams that it doesn't become fun to see that t- win if you had a situation where your team was the Astros. And the other teams were the Marlins, and you were just trouncing them every time out than sure maybe it wouldn't feel a special you wouldn't take as much pleasure. In racking up the score, but as it is all the teams are good. And there isn't that much separation. And when you can put a big number up, I think you pretty much always want your team to do that. I would be pro MARCY rule, Ben. Yeah. Probably yeah. I'm not pro mercy, though. I don't like teams. I don't like teams to quit trying. I liked the baseball in a blow out to be played at a non boring high level. And I don't like the unwritten rules that suggest. That you should quit trying to play like you always play. But yeah, a rule that said that a game that saw, you know, already got a ten run say differential in the seventh inning. Or later could end that seems like I mean man that seems perfectly finding only complication with that is that you kept serving alcohol until the very end. And now you've got this light DUI problem. But otherwise, I mean I like the mercy rule. I think that there'd be a lot of hot takes from talk radio. People complaining about the existence of mercy in the world. So maybe you'd wanna call it something else. Maybe you wanna just call it like a time efficiency, or like go we'd your garden rule or something like that. All right. Questioned from another Sam baseball is so rooted and math in hard numbers that when something happens that isn't based on those things. It's very interesting to me. I wanted to get your take on errors. They seem to be so cryptically decided as a fan. You watch the play. Listen to the guys in the booth debated. And then some random magic aegis comes out of the blue. Do you see MLB ever making an attempt to use more quantifiable data to resign errors if advanced defensive metrics evolved into a more dependable source could they be used, for example, all fly balls? Hit to the outfield with a catch probability of x percent or higher must be caught or it's an error, regardless of how the play looks as stemming from a Jamison tigon start a few weeks back where Palumbo missed abo- with, like an eighty percent catch probability, but it was still classified as hit and this is sort of in the same genre. As a question, we got from Everett who was upset about quality starts you just answered this one via Email his fantasy league counts quality starts, and he's upset when a pitcher records, what would be a quality start. He goes six innings with three earned runs or fewer. But then he blows the quality start after the fact and Everett wants to know whether that should still be a quality start whether you should be able to lose one after you have. One in both of these questions are in the category of sort of garbage stats that we're stuck with at this point because they've been around for a while and errors have been around since the beginning. And I know that I think what Henry Chadwick didn't like errors and was kind of up on what makes errors not so great from the very start. But we've been tracking earth's forever. And so the question is now that we know heirs are not that telling from an ethical standpoint, and we have better ways to assess the probability of the place should be made. Should you ditch errors should you keep recording airs the same way you always have just for historical continuity? Or should you change errors to be some more objective measurement of whether it actually was an error. I kind of come down on the side of just don't pay attention to bed steps when we have better stats, but don't necessarily change them, either, like, don't necessarily make the beds that into a. Good stat. If you already have good stats, personally, I would prefer to just keep the air the way we've always had it and not pay much attention to it because we still have an official scorer were still going to have that person up there. So sure. Have them rule on, whether it's an error not. But we all choose not really pay attention to what that person said, and we'll be looking at the arrest or UCR outs above average or whatever the future defensive metric of choices, of course, players are still gonna care about this stuff because it's their reputation on the line. And sometimes there's money at stake in our betray still, but that's all changing to an extent too and players are more and more often paid based on the actual underlying performance more so than those superficial stats. So do you think that there is a distinction that is useful for you to see made between a fielder who misplayed the ball who who fails to make a routine play and fielder who simply over the course of many games fails? To make a bunch of ninety five percent or like you know fifty percent plays like to is there something about a blooper a batch that needs to be categorized? Well, for a local purposes of not sure, but for descriptive purposes, I think so like even UCR for instance you can break it down into error runs and range runs. And so you can see guys who are good because they never flubbed a routine play. And you can have guys also who just make the extraordinary play. And maybe they do flood a routine play every now and then, so I would wanna know that, and maybe you'd want to know that just to know what the player should improve and work on. And how likely he is to improve like maybe it's easier to improve player who just bubbles balls. Right. Adam than it is to improve a player who just can't get two balls in the first place. So I think it's a worthwhile distinction. But in terms of value probably doesn't matter. What about just for you as a as part of your? Or knowledge of the story of a game or the story of a player season. Do you do? Find it interesting too. Like if there's a if a pitcher gives up six runs in inning. And they're all singles that, theoretically, are all the failure of the defense to be standing in the right place. In some cases might be the failure of the defense to have the preate range or to field balls that are difficult. But theoretically, playable versus like, well the shortstop threw the ball to the first basement and it simply clanked off his glove. Does that? Do you like to know the distinction between those two innings is that the same as asking I mean for a pitcher, if we have earned runs and unearned runs, and now you have stats that can tell you what a player shoulda done how a pitcher actually pitch. Just in terms of say the bed at ballsy allowed 'em how likely they were to become hits on average or just his strikeouts in walks and stripped, the defense out of it. I don't mind having your A and. Under runs and having those be separate categories, but I wouldn't want to go back to having that decide everything because I would still want to be able to tell how he actually pitched pendant of those things. So these are all things that I'd kind of liked being recorded. It's like win win loss record is something that we don't pay attention to anymore from an analytical perspective. And we don't even site it that much anymore, but it can be fun for trivia, and it can be fun to track the changes in the game. If you can see that suddenly no one's winning twenty games anymore that tells you something of how pitchers are being used not that you need that, that you could look at other ways to assess that, but I think it's nice just to be able to compare win loss. Records today to win loss records decades ago and see that okay? This is reflecting what starting pitcher was expected to be at that time and this time. And so, I wouldn't say toss out win loss records, don't don't record. But it's not like it's hard to do Hugh, just keep doing what you've always been doing. But you pay less attention to it, or you pay attention to it in a different way. Yeah. I, I, I like the Air's are I like that. There is a category for airs in theory. Like, if I were designing, if they didn't exist, I would propose it to me. There's something about the agreed justness of an air that feels like it's worth jotting down. Just like there's something about a home run robbery that I'm glad people count now that they don't just treat it as an out that, that sports info solutions is doing the work, right? Counted for good fielding plays in bed, fielding place. And it's kind of like errors, except it's Leeson theory, or rigorous and based on video review and comparisons players. So I'm glad that the clanked off the glove is somehow recorded in the annals. Now, I don't think that it should be used for anything else probably including ERA. I don't think that Yara even though I use the are instead set of runs allowed for everything. I don't know why. But I don't think that you are a that for the purposes of measuring the pitcher we should. Only make allowances for defense in a particular subset of plays that are not that different from a much larger subset of quite similar plays. In fact, so I would I would dump ER earned runs, I would dump airs from any sort of analysis. I heard a broadcast or the other day say that some team had been the worst team in the worst defense in baseball because they had the lowest feeling percentage and I just groaned and thought, wow still still saying things like that doesn't seem right to me. Right. So that's where I kinda come down is like, unfortunately, anytime you have a stat. It is going to be used in a way that grinds you, particularly when it's a stat that has a hundred and fifty year history and the game was for a long time into quite recently the most seen as the most important that. So it's a long process, doesn't bother me that much, but it does bother me a little bit. But I am glad that we count airs more than I'm glad that we count quality starts, by the way. Did you see 'em Abacha? Larry's. Tweet about two days ago. About the it was kinda like a you make the call sort of thing from a nineteen sixty six newspaper. No. Okay. I'm gonna read it and then you make the call. And then I'm gonna read you Emma's tweet above it. Which, I think, in fact, is the answer to this question that we should have just simply red and then saved all the time. But Francis wooden. Former Saint Joseph's high athlete told us about it in essence, it went like this, with a runner on second base and two outs. The batter hit a routine grounder to the shortstop, who feel that it cleanly the runner was in on route the third base with the crack of the bat, the shortstop became confused as to where the runner had been he moved toward second base tagged it and thought he had completed a force out to end the inning. Then he suddenly realized that there had been no one on first base when the ball was hit. So he quickly paid to first base by this time, the battery across the bag and was ruled safe. So what would you call it three options have been advanced? They. They are hit air and fielder's choice. Well, it certainly is an error of type. It's a mental error. But if he had bobbled it and failed to make that throw to first, then that would be counted as an air and in terms of the effect. And really also the reason it sort of the same thing. Right. So it's kinda historically. You haven't really counted mental errors says errors so much, and you also I mean, the problem with ariza's that, like, if a fielder touches the ball and drops it, it's an era, if he never touches. It even though it drops right next to him because he never saw it or something then it's, it's not an air. So in some ways errors strip out what the player was thinking, or his motive at times it's more about like the physical act. So maybe it's inconsistent with how heirs have usually been assessed but I'd call it an air. It's very odd. Because it so this shortstop the play was at first. I and he instead you could call it. He went and tagging but you could assume let's, let's just hypothetically say he tossed at the second and the second basement was there was, like, what I don't have anything to do with this. So that would have been the exact same thing as what he did. Right. Okay. So if the shortstop had fielded the ball and then turned thrown it to the left fielder that would be also the same thing throwing it to a place where there is no play at the expense of the outs that are there to be made. And I think then throwing it to the left fielder would definitely be called an air. And so why not throwing it traveling it? You know, locomotive it to second base, where there is also play would not equally be an air. This reminds me I've mentioned a couple of days ago that I'm a no hitter league with Mark Simon and Sarah wings van all that matters is how long a no hit bid survives. And so I pay a lot of attention to the first hit of games. And what they are what they look like, and I have this has really clarified something for me, which is that a ton of? Of hits are just so stupid. Like not like we all know that, like bloopers fall in and line drives get caught. But a ton of 'em are so stupid. They're just the stupidest place like so many hits are swinging. Buns pop-ups in no man's land that are like that. The shortstop is there. But then gets turned around and it falls like I'm talking like you're not gonna believe me Ben, but of all the hits and major league baseball eighty five percent. Are that are one of those things I just described. And then there's another category of this, which I've noticed I, I've seen two no hitters that these could be in the first inning, but they are no hitters broken up this year where the ball was into the first baseman the pitcher broke late, but got to the bag, you know, in time to beat the runner, but narrowly, an ETA full sprint and it's a very tricky play at that point. Right. That's the tough play. Whereas if he'd broken right away and gotten there in time to sort of slowdown angle into it. That's an easy play. And so. Both times the throw was dropped and an error was called instead of a hit whereas if the pitcher did not break at all. I think they would maybe call that a hit because now there's no pitch that or if he broke even later and didn't get there before the runner, like if he got there afoot behind the runner because he broke even later. That's also a hit. And so the, that's what I mean. When I say that like the difference between many hits and many heirs is almost indistinguishable, that's before you account for. Well, if you were standing one foot over which is totally an option than it wouldn't have been a hit. It would have been an air or vice versa, anyway. I think that the example that Emma gave to me is clearly in her the newspaper at the time, polled some scores some score, keepers and the consensus was air. But the consensus on Twitter seemed to be that it should be one of those other two anyway, to get to the what I was saying Emma sums this entire thing up which I will now read. Okay. Stumbled across this newspaper while looking for something totally unrelated. And in the space of five minutes, I've gone from I don't care to hit two fielder's choice to what is an air really. Yeah. That's kind of where every contemplation of errors leads is what isn't there, because that's what ficials scores have to decide every time. And they decided pretty inconsistently. So we ended up puzzling about this often. Yeah. All right. Stop last stab last. So we talked a couple of days ago, about homerun robberies and metro bloods findings that part of this seems to be that fielders are outfielders are playing much deeper in this deep. Fly ball home run era, which makes homerun robberies probably more possible, because you're able to get back and catch them. And if field is playing back deep lake that it also opens up possibilities for another one of the most exciting and expectations subverting plays in baseball, which is the hustle double. Right. If you're playing deep and ground ball goes through centerfield, and you got a hustler, and you, you lolly gagging, just a little bit. Then suddenly he's tearing around first base hustling, for a double. We all love hustle, double one of my favorite place in baseball though. I don't think that that's how hustle should be used. But anyway, I wondered if there are more hustle, doubles, this year than there have been in previous years. And so I looked at some. Stat Cass data. And before I tell you what I did, I would I'm curious to know how would you how would you look for this? How would you what would you do to try to find out how many hustle doubles, there are, and now Asli that aligns with my process? Gosh. No, I'm Blinken right now. All right. Well, here's what I did. And the goal, of course, is to capture as many hustle doubles as possible while, including as many non hustle, traditional doubles as possible. So I took a fairly narrow view of what I was gonna count. So I went to stat cast search and I quote, read doubles hit on ground balls to basically the middle two thirds of the field. So I'm taking out anything down the line down the lines. So I went from sixty degrees to sixty degrees. So that is basically two straight away left to straight away. Right. I think and so anything on the line is not going to count because that's a traditional double. So these are going to be ground balls up the mid. Oil, and then I also did a separate query for anything in the air up the middle that had a exit philosophy of eighty three miles per hour or less because that is almost certainly not going to be a ball that outfielder has to run back on. But rather that he has to run in on. I don't know if that's a good way of, of, of defining, these things, However, I can tell you that I watched, I don't know, maybe twenty of these and not one of them was not a hustle double every single one that I found was exactly what you think of is a hustle double. So this would be either ground ball at the middle or like kind of a, you know, a flare or a line drive. That's kind of the middle and kind of kind of in the gap, but that the outfielders are running in on not running even sideways on, if anything I am leaving hustle doubles on the table, but I'm not capturing non hustle, doubles. So I looked at how many there were each year and to. Estate what well, I guess you had this chart in your article the next day. So in two thousand fifteen the average center fielder played three hundred twelve feet deep now it's three hundred and twenty one feet deep and the corner, outfielders have moved more or less correspondingly. I can't remember is it a pretty four five feet immigrants, and it's gone a little bit back each year. It hasn't ever year. Okay. So even twenty seventeen which had more home runs than twenty eighteen was still a little more shallow than twenty teen. Right. Yes. All right. So I threw out twenty fifteen. I just looked at twenty sixteen twenty seventeen twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen and the number of hustle doubles in twenty sixteen one hundred eighteen and then in twenty seventeen one hundred and fifty eight two big jump got a trend. And then in twenty eighteen it was actually only one hundred twenty seven and this year, it's on pace to be only one hundred sixteen which would actually be the low for the last four years. So that was a dud. I sorry I don't know. Why do you have a theory or why we're not seeing more hustle doubles than. I don't know. Maybe it could be. Maybe it's like less valuable to try to take that extra base, because there's less contact fewer balls in play like the same stuff, we've talked about with the, you know, it makes less sense to try to go to third when you're on second. You know, you're just kind of waiting for a Homer or not expecting to be driven at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe could be although the p comb run year of the previous three was, when we saw the most hustle doubles, I think that it's just that players. Don't hustle like they did in my day. Yes. My day was twenty seven. If these guys today they just don't want it. They're paid too much. I don't I don't really know. I'm disappointed in it. But that's, that's what that's what it says. That's what all this as you're right though, that fewer balls put in play. And of course, more of the balls that are put in player are fly balls. So even fewer grounders and flares are put in play. So, but all the same, I mean, this is significantly uninteresting I will give you a little bit of a little bit of an extra fun fact. Which is that three players three players four players four players are tied for the most hustle doubles in the past four years with a relatively unexciting total of six apiece, but they do these, these four players have six apiece. One of them is Carlos Gonzales, and the answer to that. Seems pretty easy to explain. He played in course field for a lot of time, which is very spacious outfield. Zapped plate even deeper. One is ATI Albee's, who I think of as a major hustle, double kind of guy and also a hustle, triple kinda guy, and so I don't know if he is I don't watch the majority of Ozzy, Albee's fall playing but fits a narrative that I already had about him. One is Kevin cure Meyer, Kevin care Mayer has. Three of each type. He's the only player with three of each of these types that ground ball and the fly ball us a level. And then Eddie Rosario, who has four the fly ball type and two of the ground ball type, and I watched all of his, and they are really, they are glorious. They are all like he beats it by an inch. You don't see it coming. You don't you don't even you don't even know. He's, he's doing it until he's two thirds of the way and then the, the hurried throw and the tag in the over slide any keeps his finger on and it's beautiful. So those are all the six hustled, guys. Anthony Rizzo has five and Billy Hamilton has five which I like, because those are two extremely different player types, but they both get to kind of the same place here. Yeah. I was going to ask, whether it's better to be extremely fast or sort of sneaky, fast. What's the best way to get a hustle double? Because if you're Billy Hamilton, obviously, everyone's suspecting you try to go there and their deep. Yeah. They're not that too. Right. So the fact that he's done at anyway is even more testament speed. Well, yeah. There's both types at the top of this list. And so either way, I think works, but I think that being sneaky fast slash power hitter. Just eyeball in the top is, is a little bit better. All right. Well, I appreciate us that blessed with the no result gonna mix in one of those every now and then no publication bias on this podcast. If we, we get a significantly uninteresting step last, we will still tell you about it. It's our commitment to you. All right. Andrew Patrick patriots. Supporter says if we had robot on Pires, perhaps, we should say when we have robot empires would or will catchers still squat. Yeah. So this we emailed, a bunch of this stuff back and forth. And so now I feel weird saying it because you've already heard me say it. I have not seen your your response. All right. Good. So who asked this question Andrew, Patrick, Andrew? And so, I asked Andrew, whether he meant to go back to the way, they used to do it where they just kind of lean over in that old timey catcher way or whether he meant that they would like just Neil they would just be on their knees like you do in little league when you're tired, and it's the sixth inning in coach ELS at you. And he. Said the latter. So let's quickly just address, the former which I wanted to mention I had a conversation with I believe showman field in Brad Doolittle early this year about win that they have been discussing win the catcher leaning over way of standing disappeared. And I, I said like eighteen ten right like that, that's wail Timea, and they said that it's actually much more recent than you think like if you look at I believe if I'm remembering this. Right. If you look at World Series video from, like the fifties, they're still standing that way, which is crazy. I might be wrong about all of that, including who I was having this conversation with. But Andrew said the kneeling one, which I think, is extremely interesting. I'm glad that you brought this question up, not because I have a ton to say about it, but I think that, that what Andrew Nye briefly talked about his, very interesting to think about Andrew said, if you don't have a runner on, you would just meal because the squat is really good. For framing. It helps you kind of center, your body around the pitch helps you lean into it, so that you're not jabbing at it. If you Neil, you're gonna be jabbing and so a big part of the reason that you would squat even if there's no one on basis to give the empire that good presentation, if you didn't have to worry about the unpire because this is all math. Now you could jab. It doesn't matter if you jab, he could drop it for all anybody cares. And so you just meal. And so the first thing that you would think, is, when you hear robo umpires is Roble empires will mean more catcher offense because we will no longer be selecting catchers primarily for defense because they're defensive contribution will be so much smaller mobility, will not be quite as important, but Andrews suggestion suggests that you'd have another big improvement to catch offense because they, they could rest, their legs would not break down nearly as quickly, they would have a fresh legs because they would only have to squat, you know, a couple dozen times a game instead of a couple hundred times a day, and their careers would be long. Her. They run faster. They would be healthier. They would have strong fresh legs maybe even into the summer and all in all you'd expect catcher offense to go way up. And then this further led to the realization that, that the players union the players association should be fighting for this. You would think now maybe there's I don't know. Maybe there's union solidarity. I don't know what the players sociation considers the unpire association to be their allies or their foes, because they're going for the same in some ways the same control or power in the game. But from the players association perspective. And from the players cessation members. Specifically, we're talking about roughly ten percent of the workforce for whom. This is a workplace safety issue, a career long jeopardy issue. And a quality of life issue this for ten percent of the workforce. This would be a significant improvement in their work life. And you would sort of think that if the players association thought about it that way that this would be. Something that they might be fighting for demanding now that the technology is there and I don't know. Maybe that's maybe that's I don't know. I don't know how you handle the fact that the other guys are union to, and you're basically trying to get rid of their jobs or some portion of them replace them with with automation. So maybe that maybe I don't know. Maybe you don't think that way, maybe do. I'm not sure. But strictly from players perspective, you could see the union really taking this as a as a priority. Yeah. So you'd have to be somewhat mobile just so you could block ball suit have to get down. And you wouldn't want to stand up, obviously because you still need to present target. That's in the strike zone. So you still gotta get low, but what you only have to block balls. Two strikes. Yeah. That's that's true. I guess, so you'd still have to be down, but you wouldn't have to be as down as you are currently, and I think being on your knees, probably wouldn't hurt a whole lot for blocking pitches. You're even lower than you are squatting. You're less. Mobile laterally. So that's kind of a problem, you know, maybe there'd be more wild pitches and passed ball. So you'd have to keep that in mind, but I think dealing make sense just the trauma, less strain on your knees. It's not easy to, to kneel, either that can hurt your knees sometimes too. But I think that's probably what would happen, and you could even you know, if you're just kneeling every time you could have thick kneepads and you find, that's, that's kind of what you do already. So I think that's probably what would happen, but those concerns that you bring up are interesting once and it would be nice for catchers because Jeff night did episode episode twelve fifteen where we talked to all of the tallest catchers in history. So we had the, the three six foot six catchers in history. All on one episode, including current Tigers catcher Grayson Greiner and. And the older catchers, we talked to were just reeling off a litany of surgeries and oh my hip is been replaced and my knees and this, and that and their entire lower body is are, are just like cybernetic at this point because of their height and the strains of playing the position. But yeah, you would get to see less wear and tear on catchers, you'd get to see catchers playing more games. So it would change the position where like at the low ebb for the position offensively right now, primarily it seems because there is so much emphasis on the defense because it can be quantified now. So we do a complete one eighty and you'd have the opposite in the scenario. So it really would change things dramatically. All right. Maybe last one here, let's say this is from Mitch also patriot supporter, and we were just talking about starters versus relievers the other day. So this is perhaps, inspired by that, the opener seems to me like it's here to stay as a strategy, even if it ever becomes widespread in light of that. How many? Seasons. Do you think it will be until relievers throw more innings than starters, collectively as you said, I think, when we talked about this, it hasn't changed much this year, relative to last year. Right. So it's, it's just over forty percent. I think is going to relievers right now. Yet just over forty percent. And if my memory serves me right, it's gone from like thirty percent to forty percent fairly steadily upwards since like the since two thousand since the nineties it goes up when there's high offense of little bit. So it's not a perfect line up, but it's gone up sort of slowly, but steadily, this is the this year has kind of stalled, but that's a one year stall in. It's not conclusive yet. Yeah. So is there any reason to think that it will pick up again to the point that relievers will outweigh starters, do think? Well, I think that there's maybe a case that the slow and steady progress might be done that, like I would say that within in in. I given the long answer before. Like I think within fifty years, the answer is undoubtedly. Yes. But I don't think that it's going to be it goes up point two percent every year for fifty years or anything like that. I think that we might have reached a point now where it's kind of maxed out under the current way of playing but the next like the next change in pitcher usage will flip it in like entirely quite quickly. And so, I don't know, when that year will happen, though, when that flip will happen in that flip basically being that rather than having even the notion of five man rotation of guys who go six innings you have maybe two dozen pitchers in baseball who go five or six innings and everybody else is on a three or four day rotation has one to four inning relievers or one forming pitchers and at the. The roles are entirely broken down, but that doesn't seem like it's going to happen like this year and that doesn't seem to me like something that's likely to happen gradually. It seems like the thing that's likely to happen when one or three teams commit to it suddenly works. And then lots of teams to it, and it becomes the new economic model for pictures and player development and everything else. Yeah. Well that could happen fairly soon. If one team decides this would benefit us could have light summer like when the race debut at the opener last year in may by the end of the season. What like ten teams have tried it, something like that. And entering the season, you would never have thought that, that any team would do it. Really, what a load, you know, a significant percentage of the teams baseball, and that had to do with the fact that the rays were pretty successful with that strategy to. But still it just took one team to break the ice there for base. To be ready for it because as I wrote the ninety three as experimented with something like that, too. And it was just before its time and it wasn't adopted then they didn't stick with it that long. But if one team entered a season I mean, the raise could have done this. Instead, maybe, maybe they could have just as easily said, we lost a lot of guys to Tommy, John surgery. And this is what we're gonna do. We're gonna have played Snell will be a starter. But everyone else won't be starter. And maybe if they done that it would have hastened the change. So I don't know. It's conceivable to me that it might be decades. But it's also conceivable to me. Ted it could be two years. That is exactly where I stand. So should we hazard guest because Mitch essence to? Yeah. Just is not a thing that a plot that, that you can apply averages or anything to so. Yeah. I mean all say that it happens in eight years. Okay. Six years. All right. Now, I'll take take the over, I think ago, eleven years, all right? I don't know. That's a tough one, but it will happen. We both think it will happen. Yeah. I mean within fifty or maybe we're in seventy five but quite possibly next year. Okay. All right. Should I rep up there? Okay. Well after seven I spoke the Marlins lost again and they got shut out again. That's two consecutive shutouts. They've scored eight runs in their last seven games. They've not scored two runs since may sixth not great before rep up just talk about two more questions. One of which will be quick this one came in after we finished recording from Erich Hartmann. He says, what's the highest number of runs? A team has scored with one player scoring every one of those runs as an example. I write this in the sixth inning of the Jays game in Brandon jury has scored all three of the Bluejays runs. That is how that game ended blue chase lost. Four three injury. Scored the three jas runs Sam entered this one via Email. It's four. Matt Kemp scored four on July nineteenth. Two thousand nine in dodgers four three wind. Eric Davis, scored four in an August. Twenty fourth nineteen ninety four three reds win over the pirates. Sam says it may have happened before that, but that's the most outtake his word for it. And this other question is one that I had on my list, and I'll answer it now because it's peripherally related to something salmon. I discussed this is from Brendon. He says, recently, I saw Lyndon pals name listed as an alumnus of a local youth baseball league. But what stuck out to me is that they listed catching a no hitter as his accomplishment? I read that and laughed thinking is being catcher in a no hitter really accomplishment than the dialogue surrounding Mike fires recent. No hitter. Made me think are we thinking of no hitters wrong? We tend to think of no hitter perfect game as a player accomplishment, but in actuality it should be considered a team accomplishment. It's a combination of good pitching and good defense, not making any mistakes. Why do we seem to give all the credit to the pitcher and not to the team as a whole to bring this back to the land and Powell comment? Why don't all the players credit in their list of accomplishments? They were part of a no hitter. Ramon, Laureano made a great play that preserved the no hitter slash shutout. So shouldn't he be recognized in his career for this, too? And yes, I think that's true. I think we acknowledged that no hitters and perfect aims, even to an extent our team accomplishments. I know that, for instance, Jason Farah tech and Carl's release, I believe have caught four no hitters apiece. I think that's a record. And there's always it seems a play that comes along and no hitter that preserves that no hitter. Like, when we think of Mark Burleigh, for instance, Mark Burleigh has a no hitter and a perfect game. When you think of Mark Burley's perfect game, I think of Dwayne Weise's homerun robbery to preserve that. And if you think of his no hitter, I think, Jermaine Dye had a home run robbery, or at least a catch at the top of the wall that preserved that. And as we've noted many no hitters not actually that impressive from a pitching perspective, often, they're out of Balsam play, and a lot of fen tastic place. And when you're talking about a perfect game, of course, often there, many balls in play, and there many fielders who made spectacular place that if they hadn't made them might have been ruled in air. But still would have broken up the no hitter, of course defense dependent. I mean every start is catcher dependent the catchers involved in every pitch. And so we might as well list the winning catcher in the losing catcher, along with the winning pitcher in the losing pitcher. We don't do that. The reason why we give pitchers credit for no hitters perfect games. Is that they're the person at the center of that story there the protagonist there the one who has the ball? They're initiating the action there. The one we're focusing on and they're the one most responsible for the outing. But I believe it's a tradition, right? When a pitcher pitches, a perfect game often, they will give a watch to other teammates or something, and it will be engraved with the date and the perfect game. And that's a recognition of the fact that, of course, it's team dependent and the pitcher can't actually do it himself less. He strikes out every better and even then he'd still be dependent on the catcher to call those pitches and catch them. So it's really just for convenience sake for storytelling sake. You don't wanna say this team through a no hitter enlist every player on that roster. So you list the starting pitcher. But there's an acknowledgement that all. Players are most players played a part, you can play a part in supporting this podcast by going to patriot dot com slash effectively wild the following five listeners have already pledged their support and are helping preserve the podcast. Mitchell Eusler, Eric Albers, John Russo Tom hawk, and Matthew penny. Thanks to all of you. If something else today to ask you to support. I know the point of this podcast is to distract us from death, but forget our mortality, but sometimes mortality intrudes in it, intruded for me today after I finished recording this Email episode with Sam as I do after every Email episode, I sent the document with all the questions we answered to a group of several listeners who started or have helped contribute to the effectively wild Wicky than they take those questions. And they add them to the synopsis of that episode when it's added to the Wikki, one of the guys I always included those emails is Mike Moriarty, whom I've mentioned once or twice before on the show because he's been such a big part of the effectively wild Wicky project and some time after I sent that Email today, I learned that Mike passed away recently leaving beh-. Hind wife and a young son. Mike was a White Sox fan in Chicago, and he's been at listener for years. He's been a member of the Facebook group for years, and he has contributed more than five hundred episodes synopses to the effectively wild Wicky. He has been one of the two most active participants in that project and he was working on it right up almost until the day he died. It made me very sad to go look at the sign up sheet on the Facebook group, where people claim episodes to recap. And he is the last one to have edited that I think, episode thirteen sixty four is the last one that he worked on an added to the Wikki. I didn't really know Mike. Well, we had corresponded via Email and Facebook chat, but he was a presence in my life, and I appreciated his contribution to the community. He's a big part of the Facebook group in a huge part of the Wikki project. He was also a contributor to banish to the pen, the blog started by effectively Welt listeners and I know that they're planning to publish his last post very soon, I know from looking at his Facebook page, that he's missed by many people. And some of them have set up a gofundme page for his. Wife Ruth and his son, Mike junior, who's three I'm going to link to that go fund me in the show notes today, and in the Facebook group if you'd like to help out his family that would be a great gesture. He gave many hours to listening to, and documenting this podcast. And if you ever use the effective who Wicky to look up an episode. It's very likely that you're looking at his handiwork. I know that he was working toward completing that project, which is almost complete almost every episode has been recapped, and I'm really grateful for that. So even though I never met him as sort of felt like a new just because he was a part of this community that has grown over the years and has meant a lot to people that can see just from looking at the list of people who've contributed to that go fund me. There are a lot of other Facebook group members podcast listeners, banished to the pen writers, who got to know him through the show and everything that sprung up around it. So thank you, Mike. And condolences to everyone in his life. I'll start a threat in the Facebook refer people to share remembrances of Mike. You can join that Facebook group at Facebook dot com slash groups slash effectively wild and you can rate and review. You and subscribe to victory wild on itunes and other podcasts platforms. Keep your questions and comments for me and Sam coming via Email at podcast fan, grass dot com or via the patriot messaging system, if your supporter, thanks Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance, and please consider pre ordering book which can be in your hands and less than three weeks. Order at anywhere sense of confirmation that you preordered an Email or receipt to the MVP machine at g mail dot com and you will be eligible for a bunch of bonus. Good east that we will be giving you the book comes out onto fourth extra chapter conversation between me and Travis, and some other fun documents that are related to the book that you wanna see so priori really helps us and it helps you to we'll be back with another episode of the later this week. So we'll talk to you that I remember the last thing that he told me. Would you say prove me? Frenzy, I shouldn't feel so guilty. I. I know. I wish I felt like standing tall. I could you please.