[Encore Episode] 51 The Birth of Online Dating (September 24, 2018)


Hey friends we got a lot of new stuff coming at you but today we've got an encore episode. That's right I'm still single. I still haven't tried women and once you listened to today's episode. That'll make more sense. Welcome new listeners. We are happy to have you here and we are excited. To bring you Gary Kremlin yet again. The founder of Online Dating Aka. The man who ruined my life. It's a great interview and I hope you enjoy it. Say everybody I'm Jen. I'm Ali Hassan. Podcast Malcolm thank you so much for listening. We're so happy that you're here so to briefly. Tell you who we are. Allie and I are performers who've been performing Internet material live on stage using the Internet as our script for a lot of years We went down. A lot of weird wormholes and fascinating were holes and we learned a lot about different communities from there remained a web series called girls. One show which you can find on hoo-ha Dot Com Matt. Don't Echo Yeah. I knew it. I thought it was over anyway. We made a web series where we did these interviews. We've unscripted adventures and from there. We decided the inner so awesome that we wanted to make this podcast with Matt and the daily Dots. And you know here we are you know. Hello Matthew or you guys. We're pretty well pretty well today. We have a really freaking cool show. It's a little monumental. Now you guys know that. I have talked a ton about online dating and it's always tragic today. We're going to beat the founder of online dating and that is not an overstatement we are speaking to Gerry. Kremlin who founded match DOT com. So this guy truly truly was a pioneer as I say a lot on the show is the founder of my dating which is really actually I mean. The story is incredible We'll see how much get to today. But it's really pretty wild and it really changed. I think not just dating. But it's changed a lot of the way like the way that people interact on the Internet and I think it's also a major contributor to text culture alley. No what I wanted to say. I'm so glad you said. He's a pioneer because that was in my brain as well but also he birthed it which is a little bit of a mother number. Yeah as he's an anchor and also a visionary and wow. We haven't used that word on the show but yeah he really is. We thought the story is so fascinating. About how and his team was against him and wanted to just like put newspaper personals online and like give newspapers the technology and of course they were moving too slow and the whole thing is really kind of wild speaking of newspaper personals in preparation for this. I was thinking a lot about like what what dating was like before we had online dating and I completely forgot because we were too young to do it. You use you could place dating personals in a newspaper. Do you know that that was yeah? I mean other than meeting people the old fashioned way I mean in terms of yet in terms of dating services that was a pretty much the only thing that was available thank although I'm really excited to ask him what the landscape was like before he invented match dot com. Be Too I. I was looking up some newspaper. Personals just curious as like what did these look. I was at reading them as a kid. I mean third kind of similar to what you might read on dating sites today but like here's one for example it says forever single and the title of it and the person says phooey says this very attractive slim successful male professional thirty. Who's more sensitive? The mother Theresa More Lovable Than E. T. wiser than iota and more modest on a presidential candidate seeking seeking a pretty slim warm female warm. Who you're better not be dead serious relationship. That is more fun than humans. Being should be allowed to have these and they are really. It's like it seems like they're from the nineteen fifties but they're from this eighty four. Actually I love that. You found that. Wait what else did you find? Okay hold on. That was very rare. I mean in ways that was like significantly more poetic and informative than anything I've ever seen on tinder. I quit match. The match group now owns but yeah I mean on all that's right okay. The purpose of life is the title revealed here for the first time fun intimacy bearing witness to each other's days and nights. Creativity sensuality lazy. Sunday's art music and with the right person raising children very bright attractive thirty one year old man seeks pretty Gal in her twenties with similar similar views prominent ideals and prominent dare who is not the type to answer an ad that guy nowadays would be sending Dick Pic. I know that's one thousand nine hundred five. Wow I just love how. It wasn't even a thing back then to be like yeah. I'm like forty years old seeking an eighteen year old. What's changed the other thing is that personals were considered like pretty low brow and dirty and like now. They're like love letters. Do you know what I mean like. That's communities were so small like if these were in local newspapers I guess they were anonymous right but it. By the person. I'd be like Oh that Guy. He's friendlier than Et. I know who this dude is wiser than Yoda? And he's humble as president humility humility and presidency. Don't I don't know about those anymore. I don't talk about the perfect. The perfect ad from Nineteen eighty-four. Let me reference every Popular Spielberg movie. Ara- from that year and Yeah I wonder if he met the woman of his dreams based on that too now. Here's the real question. Does he look like a Combo of iota and et? That's my dream. Is the number one problem with these personals to anonymous and there were no photos come along it would take to set up a date. You were composed that it would take you like two weeks to write then you would send it into the local paper. Another two weeks publish it. We used to go by before you got a date. Probably have you guys? Seen the video. Dating Archives from the eighties ended up on Youtube. A couple of years yes. It's exactly what you just read in video for amazing right with big hair. Yeah listeners. If you haven't watched that you're doing yourself a disservice. It's just so great to see how people put themselves out there and what was considered attractive. And it's hilarious. Lucy graphics guys. I'm really excited about today's show. I'M EXCITED SPEAK TO GERRY. But we do need to take a break. I'm sorry so let's be serious matthew. You're not excited. You don't care at all about online dating. You don't know what it is or maybe you're really interested as like how. How does the other half live? This is what I'm saying like what's Internet dating. I've never even heard of it. It's going to blow your mind. It's GonNa blow your mind all my non single friends like swipe through dating APPs. I'm sure they do for you too right. L. Matt my views single friend of mine. A while back showed me tinder like in the early days of tender. Become have you taken? Meinen Jen's phone and just swiped for US please ask is a produce. Oriole DUTY OF YOURS. I will produce your date. Let's break because apparently breaks make you more productive. So let's do it. It's true it's true but but before we do that we have to have trivia. I'm sorry I know I know you think federally legislated what's wrong. I don't make the rules. I just follow them. Today's episode about online dating but the concept of computer matchmaking has actually been around since the mid nineteen sixty s going going away back to the beginning of computers the first digital a dating service in the US was created by two guys in a Harvard. Dorm Room in one thousand nine sixty five sounds a little familiar. Yeah what's up with that all right for three dollars? College age singles could mail in a questionnaire about themselves and this questionnaire included things like do you believe in a God who answers prayer and is extensive sexual activity in preparation for marriage. Part of growing up. These were some of the questions that would like their extensive just inclusion of the the the the word extensive. That's I thought about was gonNA tell us he'd give us three dollars if we got it right but it turns out that snow. You're saying that that is just the premise of this question but then to top it off. Clerical workers would then type the questionnaires manually into an IBM computer. Which was about the size of a bus and it would. It would imprint onto punchcards. This is the old Ye olden days of punch-card computing. And then the computer would cross reference the answers and spit out five potential matches and then those matches were mailed back to the applicants by US Postal Mail and the address. I think phone numbers of the matches and it was up to you to like. Call THEM UP. Send them a letter etc. That is the dreamy EST shit. I have ever heard the question though from this crazy time is what was this early. Computer dating service called. It was actually a business that was presented to the public. And what did they call it? Here are your choices. A matchmaker matchmaker. Okay Yes yes compatibility -bility more see operation match. I feel like the answer is C. But I'M GONNA go with fiddler on the roof a I'm going to go with compatibility simple to the point. We will find out the correct answer after the break. So guys Matt's always telling us like not to talk about sex so much we know like some of your injured or whatever if you need more sex in your life and love and dating and relationships all of that we have a podcast to recommend Frio. It's called seek treatment. They are so fun they almost make me want to move back to New York. Said they would maybe hang out with me. Oh well when you come to visit US meet up it's Katherine Cohen. Pat Reagan fat cat back at and they have a guest on every week and they're just dishing the dirt you really feel like you're right there with them and they're also comedians so it's highlight. Yes it is it is a fun time and you should check out PAT and cat. I also refer to themselves as shy slutty psycho bitches. That alone should intrigue you to seek treatment. Yeah how do you not want to hang out with that so check it out seek treatment you can find it actually telling you to seek treatment words to look up this gas but I'll look up seek treatment wherever you find your favorite podcast and website. You think hey we're been henry and Marcus. Host of the last podcast on the left are shows dedicated to uncovering hilariously horrifying stuff. Like alleged LUMINOSITY CONSPIRACIES SATANIC DOOMSDAY CULTS. And of course unfounded claims alien contact and now the last podcast and left exclusively on spotify. And we want you to join us. That is if you want to. Yeah obviously we'd never force anyone to just blindly joy no way just because we're super into urban legends and colts who creepy things like Chan. Choi does that mean. 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Tell me why I started crying so I know it's you if you'll remember streams she's crying before she gets you think she would cry after she gets peed on. I think she was crying because she needed a good golden shower and then happened and she was like. Why did you run away? Do you get that feeling sometimes. Like hunger thirst where you're just like. I just need a golden shower. I want to make any of our listeners. Who enjoy a golden shower to feel bad but I personally have never felt the calling for a golden shower me. Neither I love when it's called at Sun so epic two girls who podcast go on go on matthew cloudy Golden shower community. It's an episode about the Golden Girls. Jets going to love it. It sounds like something you would win at the end of a video game or something right like ask for certain video games. That's what happens. Would you like to hear the Trivia Answer? I would definitely like to stop talking about golden showers. Today's question is about the origin of digital dating. I Dunno certainly wasn't called that. But dating dating computational dating this was not online dating our guest today. We'll discuss the beginnings of that but before the consumer Internet there were giant computers. That would shuffle. Punchcards around and try to match people based on compatibility quizzes but they mailed in it was developed by two. Harvard students in nineteen sixty five. Interestingly there was another similar service in the UK or Europe The year before. So it's not the first one but this is the first in the. Us The question today was. What is this called a matchmaker? Matchmaker be compatibility or see operation match alley. You went with Yeah only because I cannot let my people down. I don't believe it's the right answer though I let you sticking with it. Genuine with the clean compatibility choice. Be just that clean. Simple is that right. Yeah I can hear somebody saying that. In an old timey nineteen sixties about. I don't really know what that means. But yeah sure it's clean and simple. Let's do what's your timey. Nineteen sixties voice. I think it all sixties voice would sound like like mid Atlantic but that's probably forties like Katherine Hepburn. It's almost like what you do. Compatibility newscaster compatibility compatibility all right. Let's stop because I'm sure this is very annoying to your listeners. Radio direct answer is C. operation. Okay for the record. That's the one that I said I thought was right but I was sticking with people. Well Matt you change it up every week. That one was too obvious and yes right answer. Yeah very kind of energy so the actually the name of the company so that was the name of the the product system that they devise. The company was called like Compatibility Research Inc the most boring name. It started with like college age singles Verd- and then had up to seventy thousand applicants. Some of them are even still married today. Wow they gained national exposure on the game. Show to tell the truth. I think Tel The television show got wind of the project and featured them and they were getting letters from all over the all over the country may even all over the world in January. I find strangely delightful. You know what I mean because you know it's like Oh love letters and now we get Dick Pics. This is like this weird in between where it's like. This is like the Modern Day love letter. The Bay heads like fill up these questionnaires and go to these lengths and I love that. Like America was so taken aback by the story was so novel. And now it's like that's kind of how everybody needs. A hot works down way. I love that they gave it kind of like a militaristic name. It just sounds like people were flying to the moon around. That shouldn't get people to fuck each other. So interestingly on the fivethirtyeight look a little mini documentary about the computer dating service and the founders of it and also the people who used it and most of them are older at this point some some of them are still married but there was one woman who talked about how she got her five matches in the mail and it was. It was a list of names and addresses and phone numbers but at the time it was very customary for the man to make the first contact to reach out so a lot of would get their matches and just like wait for the phone to ring because it was not acceptable. It was very interesting observation a from the sixties and now we have bumble tumble so much guys. I deleted tinder again as I am now trying bumble resent so much that people call it with feminist dating APP because what is feminist about women having to do all the work anyhow. I've I think that's story about operation. Matchmaker matchmaker is I find it strangely. Adorable Yup Yup. Yeah I do too well. I think it's time to speak with our guest. Were thing definitely okay? So we're talking about all right. We are so excited right now. We're so excited right now. To speak with Gary Kremlin. He's an entrepreneur inventor investor. He's many projects and companies and interests. But we're speaking to him today about the fact that he founded match dot com. Welcome Gary and managed to be here today. All right Kerry we read that you launched match back in one thousand nine hundred ninety four. That's right I started thinking about it in ninety three but launched it in ninety four. When I came up with the idea from dating we would love to hear what was the landscape like back. Then and how did you get the idea to invent? The phenomenon has ruined my life. Ooh discuss that issue. In your life being ruined by sometimes the best entrepreneurial ideas are the ones you can kinda personally understand. The problem and my problem was I needed to find the right person to marry and Gary Meant to quality gates. Oh Okay so you can understand the challenge right. I understand your soul in. Maybe we can work on your challenge that you're having right now but so I was doing back then. One method of meeting people other than friends introduction and going to bars in hoping things helped you randomly was at the personal ads in the back of newspapers. Is anyone familiar with these? Lar- that's a good word for it. Lor that's right. Wow a lot of newspapers especially the alternative. Newspapers actually got most of their money from the classified advertising. Mentz in within class odds They would put people pay money to put ads. And then when you would wanNA contact with our senior after leave a message on a nine hundred number so it was a double way to make income and especially the alternative. Newspapers did really well with this model and I was using them in spending thousands of dollars trying to find ms right unsuccessful row. So were you actively dating people from personals. And how? How did that go? I was actively dating someone. Better than others My Best I had some low points. My best method was I had a good strategy where I I studied women and women trusted. So who do you think women trust their fathers? I don't know Iraqi so fast. Wow I was gonNA say Nice Guy. Police is this women's studies in College. Is that what people talk? That's really not no. Why did you? Why did I just started ellen? Sting professionals now you trust your nice gay friend right. Yes yet so I came up with this idea. Why don't I put ads in gay newspapers with my gay friend with Alagic that if you say gay man straight man the hard to get to women will all my gay friend is introducing me so I trust so I'll go on the day we back up so I confused so ads in the game papers that you were to friends looking for two people to date? Yeah Gay Guy Straight Guy. Looking for guidance. His hand fed phone. Okay this crafty. Well see what I'm saying. It's different distribution channel. I doesn't that dating site exist because I know isn't that a good question out to my friend brand you and I would double all the fucking time. I can't wait to send him this. Do you get the logic in fact. I just recently found the ad that I was doing like ninety one ninety two. Can you that ad? I need to see that but the thing. That's great about that from my perspective is of the date sucked. I would still get to hang out with brand exactly exactly so many wins here. So many wins exact. Okay okay I was doing things like that Did you have a gay friend or did you have to go find one like Brennan Mine? Simon Simon Simon was actually very helpful early on at match dot com to so great guy. So I was doing that. And you know sometimes it was hit or miss in stuff like that and said it was classified section classifieds setups and who you happen to me right right in the challenge was that wasn't quick interaction. There wasn't You didn't have audio union video. You didn't have a picture so what was happening at the same time as was doing One of my first startups. I did which was selling some software online on the nascent Internet. Tiff worlds first. Open source software company taking software downloading in Modem. If you remember that word and selling it to people at big corporations that didn't have access to the Internet calling Ah Ninety S. Yes early early nineties so one day I in email in this was all done through email because the web there was no or very little it was very academia academic and we would in what was happening is companies warned things like Lotus notes and they started hooking up to the outside world. So you can use to be only to send email internally within a company but people started hooking it up from the outside world in and we would start getting purchase. Orders are software. Maybe he's a couple of hundred bucks in. That was good because that meant we could eat that week feeding. Yes at done. A lot of that might sow. So one day we get a purchase order from Hewlett Packard. I'll never forget the day. It was like for seven hundred dollars at my partner comes running in goes. Oh my God we just got seven hundred dollar order when I look at it and I go. Oh look at its from it says from a woman she senate and he goes. We'll probably be Adleman The person who's ordering and I go. Yeah but you think she's cute. Okay all right. And then that was following. Here he goes. What are you talking about? I go in an attachment just been invented as I said. We'll one of. We could convince her to take her picture. The KINKO's scanner Dan and send it to us now. We discuss podcast before he goes his for Kink. You gotta remember the time. This is really back in the day. So how did you convince her? Why didn't put it? Was the genesis of the idea that like. Why don't we use email for a dating service? And you could attach pictures. And you can fill out a profile on an email form and I can rightous piece of software parse through it all and then look up in a database in find the closest match. That was the genesis. This is before the web and I quit that company that I started called. Los Altos Technologies moved from the San Jose Area. Up to the city at the same time we got a new. Ceo who inherit cold Meetings before companies. That's appropriate gun prayer meeting Jenin. I do that too. Yeah like it but we always do a little prayer. I prayed detector. That's honestly making sense. That's the genesis. That was the question you asked right. Yeah but but I mean. The whole thing is is amazing and fascinating. It just really speaks to help how much the world has changed so quickly and fundamentally so okay so you started this email service. Is that how it started? I can email service. So you would fill out this form. And then invented the idea of anonymous email stripping your email name and substituting it with a different name and main credit card advance bought a server and opened up was little dating service idea and so it was and that's how it was launched as an email service and how we're sign ups in the initial launch because as we all know there used to be huge stigma around online dating and now it couldn't be more normal so to speak. So what was that like? There was a year right. There was a huge stigma. But then I you know it's always successful successful. Ventures might be a series of inventions our idea's. You know the first thing people would prefer something with more information than what's in the newspaper. You know a couple lines at a newspaper with Cryptic Code. It preferred more information. Maybe a PIC picture to the second one was there was very little women online. I've been online since the early eighties and I realized one woman would bring fifty men especially if those picture so I came up with a marketing strategy. Kinda bars used to do of Lay's night just focus on getting women were talking about the heterosexual market and we we definitely did stuff in the LGBTQ market Significance which led to my downfall. That's what we did. We focus just on making the website work for women. We didn't care if it work well for men because we know for every woman. We'd have fifty minimum. Did you test this on yourself? To get started since it was generated from a personal need. I mean I looked at the information but I was dating someone at the time so I had that rare thing. That was actually with someone which was shocking. Because that was an arm. Nice so you just mentioned it and I read this on the Internet and thought it was really interesting Internet. It must be true. Everything you read on. The Internet is true. Oh God the things I've read about teletubbies and snipe severance okay. So you ended up so you had an argument with your VC's about servery serving the LGBTQ market and that's what led to you. Leaving can talk to us about that. Oh yes so. It's things started working growing at one to three percent a day. Sometimes we'll even before that I said okay. We need to have diversity inclusion and Mir what was going on in my opinion in the real world living in San Francisco but I raise money from investors and investors. It was a time where you know dating service. They didn't even want to tell their investors the limited partners about it and when they found out I added in. Lgbtq feature to the site they were just up in arms they were like what if our investors find out. We'RE GOING TO HAVE WE'RE GONNA lose our money. And they got their money from you. Know University pension funds and family offices. And you gotTa look at the Times. I guess if you if you try to look at it from The most favorable from their position and they told me to take it off and I said no. I'm serving a market. That has every right to have a dating service and we had a big disagreement that it led to you know she with the Gold has the rules even though they were all a bunch of man and they brought in a coo over me. Wow I love and hate that story so fucking match. Yeah so probably cracks me a couple of hundred million dollars my decision to advocate for lgbt access. It does it. Does it help that. You did the right thing so because it absolutely you did the right lane and you go down in history as having done the right thing. It's just so crazy to also I mean I'm glad gay rights are advancing as much as they are but the fact that in the ninety s that you wouldn't serve that market is also just insane because it speaks to how diversity is a business imperative like it's an enormous market that can bring you lots of dollars but you don't Wanna serve them so and and when when would spend hours at a going there well homophobic nature but even when I tried to get past that I would try to make a dollars and cents just rate of return argument and it was like talking to Stonewall It was it was crazy. It just shows how people's prejudices can affect the bottom line and in a capitalist society that just makes no sense to me. It's no doesn't yeah a problem where people don't want certain markets and then. Yeah they're losing out. My friend has a huge business just based on the fact that he is totally down to serve the Trans Community. He does custom suits but nobody else wants to serve them. It's fucking nuts sample. But I had these conservative investors that white shoe investors behind him and they were just absolutely opposed to that. They were absolutely opposed to any kind of dating. That wouldn't lead the marriage. You know like a long Sean. You Talk Straight White assholes time. They run everything. They run everything. Okay so yeah so. I don't know we got off on a tangent a little bit but it's not attention. I love it. This is the episode. Hanjin transients in their beliefs caused them to lose all the money in the end of the day. I was the only one who made any little bit of money on the whole thing but because of their transient. But that's another story. Why we tell that one so gary. I'm curious when this first started. Did you notice anything about the way that people were dating one another where people on the site looking for relationships with looking for hookups? What was the culture? I'm dating like at the time while again. There was this huge pressure for my investors to like ban hookups. You know it was crazy They said No. It has to be this long term relationship but I observed what was going on and it was clearly people were marrying what goes on in The non online world even which was ninety five percent of the market at the time and some were people. It was a continuum in a spectrum but to focus was because of this investor pressure on long term marriage long-term relationship marriage at the end of the day. They kind of made me do what they wanted to do. So you departed and I don't know if if after that you're like fuck it or if you still I mean this was over this over a year period. I stayed on the board. But you know when you're not. Ceo At least at the time it was. I actually should have stayed but it is what it is you know. Well can you talk to us from your insider perspective about how the online dating landscape grew and changed her. What contributed to the stigma disappearing? Just there I mean it's because it is so fast anyhow online dating has completely taken over and have been there from the beginning. What can you tell us about how that grew? You know it's funny you know we're talking about Lgbtq I it's Kinda like the same thing it's like the acceptance except when you're from a non accepting world had an acceptance happen well you met someone who Let's say was Trans and you're like. Oh this is just a person and I think same analogy is here. Which is oh. You met someone who met someone online. Oh well that they're they're good people so What's wrong with that? So that was one of the I would say. That's one of the things that happened. If that makes sense totally. I've a friend who married someone. And she kept telling me that they met through mutual friend and then at the wedding I realized I'd never met the mutual friend and then I realized they met online and I was really pretty pissed about it. Yeah I take. Us was that was in the beginning. A lot. Yeah this is like should they got married in like. Oh nine and she knew I was online dating and I'd be like bitching about online dating and she was like well. You know me and my husband. It was absurd and then I figured out and I was like you whore anybody what was going to say. I didn't start online dating until a year ago. And I think Jennifer Jennifer soap here vehicle from my reading group from Oxford graduates or whatever throughout this just a pioneer. I'm an early adopter late to the game. A I know I was skeptical of the quality of connection. You can make with you because I think some of some of the APPS in the last few years of earned sort of the best reputation because it can be about hookups. But I'm with you what's going on. What Bush. This is not a prude. Gary Johns actually like sixteen men right now Jenny Snapshot Me Right now. Back to what you were saying. You think it's not a deep series connection. It isn't while it's a line. The idea is still that you go meet offline line. What's wrong jen? People just have to have the right intentions going into it and I think some people I just WanNa have fun but that's fine too. It's nothing she wasn't my intent. It's just a lined intentions aligned intention. Exactly exactly yeah. You can actually tell us the story before we shamed. Eugen joined last year and and yeah and her dating life. It's been so much better. She's killing it now. Yea- let's hear more about it serious here. I WANNA TALK SALES GARY STARTING STATUTE. This is all going out on twitter to all the eligible partner. Okay here's something I want to know. Do you think you can find a love through an online service uses and cry? She claims her love for you. Average intervention and her CNN tens of billions of marriages through online dating. But are they in love? You can ask all marriages matthew kidding. I don't know John. I'm on your website right now so we might need to work a couple things sensing in real life. You haven't met anyone video. We did the daily dot looking at right. Now we're what we were talking about was the evolution of online dating. That's what we were talking about mine. And so what are your thoughts on how he grew and then how he gave rise to share and things like that and that whole ecosystem matching tender? But I'm a big fan of that location based dating. I mean you know. There is not one product that may fit all sides. You know it's evolved that matches more for long term and some things are more for. They STARTED HOOK UP BASE. But any hookup can lead to a long-term in some long term can lead the sharp term. I'm I'm for more. New Technology quicker looked there. There's a saying in business that contacts equal contracts so nearly the January deb Samore dates. It's a number that could yes. Yeah I'm working my way all right so before we move on to too much we do in here a little bit more about the early days of match so what else can does. Yeah so we did some pretty innovative stuff. You know invented anonymity. We invented the idea web different web pages for different people. Got Some patents there. I think we're probably the first technology company to hire women in numbers General Manny what even if there is some today maybe we were the first and only. Can you expand on that? Oh my God well you know. There was a belief that only men could do technology and startups said. Didn't probably change for fifteen years. Believe still exists. I've been wondering who have told me that women just aren't interested in technology and then I send them reading material and when it's clear that they've read it I ghost. I'm educating men. One tender data time. Thank you Ali. I started them. Send them video from the Claiming Institute for Gender Studies called leveling. Yes generally go to nice. Well Okay so. So you're like fuck this we're GonNa hire some women crazy that's right. Isn't that insane and a woman the run the business unit and because my belief was at least at the time the idea was you have to have a product and service that was focused on women only and this idea that you know men were They were in Cillari to the process but that was a big men are great at speaking for women. That's how exactly I'M GONNA GO Shelly Self. Yeah not seriously but the resistance that time what you WanNa hire women managers you out women to design a product. What is wrong with you? That's against all convention Fights over gender issues was pretty interesting because this was also the nineties. It wasn't that long ago like I love how I mean. I hate that. Everyone's like Oh me too. Things are changing for women. And I'm like this is the tip of the Iceberg Lake. All of the idea of women being able to do anything is so fucking new. Okay I have an answer. I have a tangential question. Gary you mentioned creating web pages individual pages for users. Does that mean that you you said the word invented or created. Does that mean you created the profile? The online profile is that accurate. I mean before we got there. A Web pages were static web pages. They wouldn't change depending on who you were. Or what kind of device you had Housi- Oh yes. This was so early on that there was probably a couple thousand thousand people on the web. So the idea that a webpage could be dynamic. That could change based on like. Let's say a match. That was something we came up with the idea for for nets used by a couple of billion people every justin dating in everything. That's actually how I ended up making any money on the whole thing but yes so you know when you're early sometimes you come up with inventions and ideas the idea of the two way match. That was our idea that I didn't have to just like you but it would be good if you liked me. You know yeah mutual. There's an idea. So were there. Any specific incidents that led to waves of people signing up and its eventual ascent into so-called normalcy. Yeah so there was. I kind of zeroing on what what questions in. What worked in profiles you know. In the beginning we asked two hundred questions YOU KINDA. Viking the harmony Kinda model founded. That's a real poor model. People just have attention spans. What people think they want? It's really is there. Someone close to me that Kinda hits the rough area of her by well. It's not always hot because Well hat is the I N. In the eye of the beholder. And it's not always images you know. It could be what someone says. Yeah Yeah for sure because it can allow you know. I think that movie Kissing Jessica Stein is a great example of that wasn't exactly what she was looking for. But it worked out okay I haven't actually seen that movie but a Heritz phantasm either grab. It's an old. It's an old school movie of The Times and I date myself sometimes with my reference. I know the movie it's about right. Well yes now. But it's about a woman who's looking for someone specific that's a soul mate and it was about the quote that did it and then she found. Oh is from a woman but the quote was so powerful. It allowed SPANNER HORIZON ABOUT BISEXUAL. Transcending all genders. I Dunno it's it's about that there might be. You know many things that could work. And if you're focused on just your narrow your ask is narrow your Your your set of people is narrow but if you brought in yourself out Jan made you do a little God dating so much. I know but it's because but also because she started online dating last year so now she's killing it. I know I know she. Killing it gots. I'm thankful killing it. I mean killing it as I've been dating a lot of people but I think for all but I think given what I want is a relationship so I think I'm getting closer to something meaningful but who knows. Just keep going until we find. It should be similar. Things getting therapy. Thank you very much channing. Gerry. What's what's your other. What's your dating advice for us to single women in our thirties were fucked could be could be. I mean there's clearly some Michigan's got nothing. You are talk this end badly. An I'm good with free. Can I start with freezing your eggs the way you're going that's another podcast episode? That's like oh it's for another different. That's for that V life. That's another podcast that we've been I was GONNA do an insurance company. Yeah you know. That's another entrepreneur but all my friends are freezing their eggs and is so fucking expensive unless you work for pays for it. It's expensive not think of the value of preserving your options that is valuable there so you don't have to panic and Mary some you know or get with you know have a baby with God knows what that is not the apple panics. Thinking like thinking like Guiseley just as you guys don't Xanax. Every morning you'll feel so much better. I don't feel any panic I should. I guess but I don't feel panicked. Yeah Alright Gary enough about our our withering eggs okay. So do you have any other major online dating advice to give to our listeners? I'm asking for a friend while I mean. Yeah I mean you know. I think the pickiness is the killer you know. You just need to broaden your horizons whether they be age race gender etc. You need to really just get some more at bats so to speak more rather than fewer. That's so upsetting. What else you do podcast talking to humans hanging out for my ex whether Yep oh I didn't ask you. You have a crazy story about how you finally met your wife. Can you tell that story? That would be my ex wife but Shortly went so far the judge. Will you married her? Jesus offered a reward. So here's the problem. Okay now. Jim Think of all your friends. I mean maybe three or four but at best city new friend So when they need someone think of all the people your friend can set someone out. How do you get there? Mindshare how do you get there? Eyeball people up more than triumphant. But they probably arpanet with you. Sell what I said is wonderful. Acl crazy so how do you get that setup among all the possible people who could be getting at how do you get that mind show so they think about this setup? Will you offer a reward like lead? Gen Fee so I gave a legion fee. So if you set me up with the person I marry you get the trip to Hawaii for two. And it hasn't changed to Hawaii would work man. I think this is a good idea. Like incentivizing setups incentivizing setup. I think would not be a bad idea. It's not a great title incentivizing setup dot com but I figured it's a really good model it. What about this firm cash pimpernel? Your friends definitely go by that. You are immediately and speaking of that takes us to our next topic. Which is you own some interesting you are ells on. I think it made some money just by like sitting on sex dot com right like I tell us those stories. What happened on your match? Your was during that sex's before so you know I saw even a greater vision than the jazz dating. I just saw the staging of the newspaper industry when I was researching personals and going out to talk in newspapers they thought they would have monopolies forever and I said well. Why are we putting pictures in classified advertising. Why can't we communicate same kind of thing dated so? I said I WANNA do on the classified advertising at the same time I was doing dating so I got jobs. Dot Com of DOT COM HOUSING DOT COM PROPERTY DOT com. All the good stuff. You know what I'm saying. Sex Dot Com ride you had sex DOT com. That's right that was actually just an afterthought that was a good afterthought took off after it's a good afterthought brilliant So you're sitting on all of these I'm sitting at him I was gonNA use them all so And data what happened was What what what happened was Someone stole it from five. Ten convicted felon convince someone at the network solutions. Who is the registry of the time to turn it over to? What will the bad dude you know what I mean okay and five time convicted felon? It's good dude there way. So where's it going? Is that a big legal fight with the guy got him tossed in jail And ran sex DOT COM for for five years. It's actually in the adult. Business is sex DOT COM. Exactly what we think it is no it was. I didn't want to go do. I didn't WANNA be in the porn business per se so I turned it into Google porn. We didn't have any content. But if you typed in you know dating challenged women in New York City maybe you would come up with some attention to this west treating you bad you know talking about the talking about so and then I did sell that. He's going to do some. Seo Magic after the show to like point those search terms to Jen's twitter. Oh that's right you. Can you do some hacking and find us are soulmates? Can you do that? Jr after this whole I gotta be honest after this whole conversation is this is going to be a dad for gotta find me my husband. I'll give you a trip for two to like coffee. How's that working out? Carrie I know I know you get the hard case. I see that right now. Well you you too might be hard. Cases are so fun because we're so fun. Yeah is it better dating in my thirties than my twenties. Because I think in your twenties did want like a hot normal girl who's like Kinda quiet and then in their thirties. They realize knoll. I WANNA be entertained till I die and now I'm doing a lot better when they're in their twenties. They don't want normal but maybe in their thirties they want. They want like the picture. Perfect like she's quiet and she's pretty but then they realized that's not fun for life. This is a actually. They want the wild one in their twenties The problem with women many women in their twenties not U2 is. They're kind of focused on that bad boy situation. That usually doesn't work out that well. This is getting complicated anyway. It's getting accurate. I mean not not for me your your theories definitely ring true with like everything that I've heard and read but you're using a sample size of one gary. It's got a lot more. He's got all our data correct. I don't know that it applies to me. But he's never ask. Does I think I spent a lot of time in my twenty S. Dating the very nice people that I was supposed to date and not the people that actually attracted into so now. I'm fucking assholes just getting anyway at all Jacob so do now what can you tell us? I have two questions. But what would you like to let the listeners? Know what you're up to now while so I've been really focusing last ten years in Trying to do some give back. I started to companies in renewable energy solar and in the last couple years have been focused on water a lot. You know really trying to give water to the under served than those without n. Daf I'm an elected official responsible. One of the people responsible for providing the two million people in Silicon Malley with water. Yeah that's smoker. It's wonderful silicon valley's really into coconut water your supplant coconut ball. My show against those people go to jail. Why is it a scam? Why why I mean. I love coconut water. Just because feel like if I'm drinking coconut water I can close my eyes and pretend I'm somewhere else suffer me. It's just like this is like a fantasy thing. It's not like I believe I'm healthier. I see why sometimes use on this all right. Well Jennifer about you but I have one question so you you've had a very long entrepreneurial career and I think like the way that you founded match and then exited from that and everything I think it's all very fascinating sued. Do you have any major lessons that you could share with our audience? So I'm a big believer in you know focus on let's say maslow's hierarchy of needs whether it be sacks food water self-esteem that's a good place to be and Denno cam now focus and then you know understanding the Problem Yourself. I think is pretty good. You know I see a lot of startups and ideas out there. Where people truly don't understand the problem. They're trying to solve another groups problem in. There is nothing like being in a field in sobbing problems. You deeply deeply understand yourself. It's been one of the keys to success. Yeah all right. Thank you gary. This has been delightful even though you guys so much. We should totally do intervention on. Don't you think so? Do you think we could do that to get a drink and discuss man? Yes I live. Got An ready okay. We'll keep girls up with men though. I like men okay. I'll try and Gary right problem. It's been great to talk to you later. Jen what I want to apologize to you. For what Allie for. What if you know then? We're good good. Appreciate appreciate what you guys did. Because I think it's a sign of love. I mean guarantees. No me but like I think you have to put them down. Yeah Yeah Yeah totally. That seemed like a real deep thing that we should dive into unhealthy. It was just too much fun. Ganging up on you and the deep dark secret is if it wasn't you it was going to be me exactly or usually it's mad as the thing usually it's he doesn't have a dating thing to tear apart but they now married since he was a fetus. It's illegal but listen sure. Your marriage is legal. If you looked into this leads me to my business idea guys. Are you ready? Oh God yes yeah. We're talking about freezing eggs. A dating service a dating service for frozen gates. Meaning you freeze your eggs features freezer sperm and than computers match up the DNA. So that you can show skins and you eliminate the dating and the husbands and the wives in the marriage you just you just connect the DNA dots and get the best baby. Boom it's got such do it well so it's Zinder I that's great for someone who literally just wants a baby right. I don't like great great. I'm sure there's a market for that. I can see the world heading in that direction. Much more interested in the life partner thing the rest of it. I don't super care about. I think Gary had a really interesting perspective on broadening your horizons. It's challenging to me but I like it can start to think about how you going to start to date women. I mean that's basically what he's getting. He thinks he date women. Maybe maybe it's time it's all the same bed times many times in many countries and cities and in fact. I think we're doing that again in several cities in October. We send a comforter. Yeah yeah totally shared. I know I have a question that I think I would like you to unpack both of you completely ready. Yeah we joke and we talk often. A Ha Ha. You're in your thirties. And you're single and dating so crazy. Haha. An an an I believe it an I get my question for you is you. Don't get it but thank you for trying. I don't understand the pain like I respect it and so my question for you is where two things fall apart meaning like you guys are clearly meeting lots of dates and prospects and lots of your meeting. Lots of people going on lots of dates and having various levels of relationship with various people. And then my question that I don't understand is like what happens. Where you or? The person are like This isn't working. Like what is it for you? Is it like this person is not the life partner or is it like? Whoa this person actually super knowing. Where do you get stuck and have to start over? That's the part I don't know much about. Yeah this is GonNa be so great for my mother to listen to but I think you should go. I seriously because I think my parents. They met at twenty two and they don't understand it like you're going on dates. How have you not met someone? Yeah freezing. I'm like what's wrong in and a lot of people do that but I do think that correct correct. It's a two levels. I think the first level is chemistry. So there's so many different kinds of chemistry and I find that the one that's most lacking with other people for me like when it would fall apart would be an emotional kind of intellectual chemistry even more than the physical. Obviously you're not going to continue to see somebody if you're not physically attracted to them but like if you can't get in their deep enough and feel really connected to them Then it's not going to progress but then beyond that if you have all of that all systems are go and both people are willing and they wanna be you know. We both want to be involved in some sort of relationship. I guess the next level is just like that every day shit like. Can you make your lives compatible enough? Are you willing to make them compatible enough with one another to keep something going and I think that just gets harder as you get older and people up more shit to deal with. I guess the perfect answer. That really makes a ton of because e- even feel it as just as a regular human being who has to interact with other humans as we all do. It's like I'm not looking for relationship but it's like when you meet a colleague or a friend or new renew acquaintances like you know fairly quickly of like. Oh this person's Super Fund and then you get them deeper and you're like We have nothing in common ever get and I understand that as just an interpersonal at an interpersonal level. That makes yeah. Yeah I mean I just think there is a ton of luck involved in everything in life you know like I certainly try to remind myself that there are people that have met the love of their lives but they don't like their job or actually they're getting divorced. Everybody is something I think. There's just like a lot of luck involved in life and I'm very lucky that I love my job. I let my city like there's so many things I love about my life but I think there is a lot of luck like if you happen to meet Lawrence O. Young which is like delightful. I'm sure it has. Its own struggles in many ways but You know I think I think if you hadn't met her in fucking high school it's possible that you would go on thousands of dates and just like not really feel that it was right until you then met her. But it's just like I don't know I mean most people you meet them and like you don't WanNa get naked with them or hang out with him every day like a you know what I mean. It's it's really finding a life. Partner is actually think about it a very tall order so I agree but that gets back to agenda of like when you're older you have more requirements or criteria MOCO. So when we when my wife and I met we were basically kids. So it's like date mate. Exactly what I always say is that we built our lives together and SORTA figured out what we wanted. Our lives to be together so it's not like we met as at thirty and it's like she had her life and I had my life and like oops were not compatible because we want different things we figure that out together and that is why we work now and hopefully work. You know going forward into the future. You could argue the reverse in the sense that not you but a lot of couples get married young. They say oh. We changed and we grew so differently. You know so it so a lot of people say like I am no this older woman who tells me late lasting late last You know so I don't know I always perceived it as like if you're thirty you know what you want if you want kids you know it if you don't want if you WanNa live here you WanNa live there you you you sort of know what you want out of life and that to me feels like shouldn't dating be easier because everyone kind of has more shit figured out but but. I think we're all looking for a needle in a haystack. And you could go searching in that in that barn helping jen with my farm analogies nine needle you could get lucky and find that needle right away and then the rest of us are fucking still picking over the wrong. Hey trying to find that goddamn needle. Gary's advice would be stop looking for a needle. Just look for a wider. I don't know is that good advice or bad. I don't know I don't know because sometimes I'm like I need to be more open and broaden my horizons and then I just end up on a lot of dates. I'm not interested and when pickier I might have fewer dates but the dates are actually better and then it's also like you're looking for the haystack. They're looking for a needle in Haystack. And I might not be looking for the same needle you know what I mean. So it's like Psalms I go I'll go up the guy and a great time but like he clearly has terrible judgment and he didn't have a great time so whether you're in a relationship or not I think it's like a really fine line that push and pull between knowing what you want being open to change and I guess the most successful people can like ride the space on that line like for. Yeah that's that's really hard because sometimes I find that I'm too stuck in what I want. I'm not open enough other times. I'm like wait to open and I invite somebody into my life. He's like clearly not the good person for me. So yeah but I I imagine the same interrelationship because you obviously if you know somebody from really a young age. You're going to change a lot with that person. So how do you facilitate that? It's hard work no matter what stage. You've summed it up really clearly about articulating. That line is everything and it makes a lot of sense. So that's really helpful. I mean not. That doesn't matter to me but like it's fascinating all right. Let us know you know where you're at with all this what you think. The secret sauce is to finding love or finding happiness in terms of relationships and other people when date Man Gen. Send us an email with the photo attachments. That email address is due g. One podcast G MAIL DOT COM. You can also tweet us at Allie Gold A. L. L. I. G. O. L. D. and at June. Bugger J. O. N. B. You are. You could also leave a voicemail number. Seven one expires. Four eight that number again. Three seven six tip. You don't want to date us. You can still give us your money. Patriots DOT COM slash to g one P and lastly. If you WANNA chat with US PLATONIC. We've got a discord jat room and that is discord. Doug slashed to g. One P. Elliot's thousand nine hundred sixties. Mid Atlantic accent. Is that what we're doing now? I just really wanted to take away their with the dating. So don't forget what we're looking for. This week is your bio over the photo attachment. You still don't want to date us or give us your money. You can send us the craziest dating story that you've had we want to hear it through all of those channels. I just mentioned but seriously if jen and I met are soulmates. The podcast think that'd be pretty funny. Oh what if it's each other? Okay down here. We're all good things. Everybody will see next week as ten of are in it and in five Max Silverman in New York City for this episode by a run accent assistance provided by the actual show is run on a number of summers working memory. Warning light on being Internet. Subscribe to the show. You'll never appears at the end. A Sign Universe peed on me. But it's okay.

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