Prof. Sao Tomai, Professor of Electrical Engineering at the University of Ljubljana, Slovenia.

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Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy economics, and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at UNSTRUCTURED CONVERSATION WITH NO AGENDA OR PREPARATION Be, color. A wide variety of domains. Red New discoveries are made. And new, technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot Com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. Please, send up to info at scientific sense, Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen Dot Info. Mike yesterday is prefaced Zozo Dema Zeke who is a professor of electrical engineering and the head of the board will seek formation technology at the University of new. Brianna. Sylvania, he has authored or co authored more than two hundred scientific papers in the field of ICT, at signal processing. Hubbard since two, thousand, six, six, Benke predicted in his lectures at several conferences the crisis that occurred two years. Later, Keith has been engaged in research on the causes of economic crises at the measures that would be necessary to prevent in the future Bentham says. Hello. Welcome to. Thank you. So I want to discuss your book. Entitled Imagine Nonprofit Society. Utopia. UNNECESSITY. rather than starting at the beginning of the book, I would like to go to part two of the book where you have some suggested solutions to the problems here described. But before you get there, let's define the problem said the context for the solution set you suggest you say Avoid constantly recurring crises walls in ecological disaster in the future and I guess you can add pandemic Stu how? The world urgently needs a transition from the cotton Sushi economic system, which is based on the profit of capital. Towards a new system that based on different foundations do you say a nonprofit social economic system all or more simplistically in on profit society? So you want to talk a bit about the problems out into the context for some of the solutions that you suggest. Of course. I think that from. Just physical bouts of. View the current economic system is unsustainable. That's the per Aldrin. This system. This. Put. The function. It needs economic girl. Yet, but economic is explanation. So A. About two percent yearly economic filed for this system. Normally function. But in Hanley tears. It's mean Stanford's into hand hand falls in three hundred. Thousand Foot. So at these girls. in three candidates. Thousand Times more energy than us not decision. That that presumes. So that. BE DON'T GET efficiencies from new technologies and so on. So either energy creation today laws ignorant by fossil fuels. you know maybe fifty years we would completely change the equation perhaps. Known this I cannot tell you this you know. This a ghost has to pause. Yes. Fault that the action. Consumption. Order today, we cannot 'cause you ellison produce. GonNa. Be Consumed Thousand Times Slorc a million times than for hundred years. Since hope. You're not given this that. Del Limit to homage humans can consume. So any system that is predicated on it two percent growth in consumption. Has To caster temper that or come to a heart at some point. Yes, that's to. Production and consumption just two parts of the same craciun now was so we cannot accept to to today. A bus. Every person one more beds device. So in two hundred David Hale. Hundred devices each in in the thousand deals. Hundred. Million Devices. It's impossible. Misha is did the system which requires gross. He's fantastic. To the point where does not enough. Think but when the really the point where deadliest. Would too much. You know there's so much other Tyson's needed today not took to Jews but fairly because we can produce much more than we can said right and so so. So the argument is on consumption that cannot grow instantly like like the economy. Padelis assuming but that is. You A. Large issue. So it so even tactically not even going to years even the contemporary situation you say. You, the eight point, five, billion people that we have one billion, you call the golden billion. casts living standard, but the remaining seven point five billion people can only dream of the golden standard of living and so we you know we have a big issue you today that is sort of People put into two different buckets right It's true. It's also the same problem because when the profit is the only, Martin? For doing something. The. Catholic dot accumulates. One Alum Punchy not now. At this moment, pipe person has financial capital. Like the other half of human reproduction. It's going. Right so so you are you're saying that such a system is inherently unstable. and so as we think about solutions around us, you know so so conceptually at the highest levels are are you saying yeah, we can conceive some solutions, but you can't really implement them. Because, you say human consciousness is tumbling block to any sort of new ideas you can implement and so so what do you mean by human consciousness? I've mentioned this I. Would say, so Bob Pinon in the. Chance you know what people seeing, what people believe what people think. It's good. What should be done to you know this? Mechanism of advertising could ideas. Make, people believe that the the the consciousness, the best possible system they don't even allies unstable. Yeah you told so. Let me. Let me make a statement and again can debate if it's true or not. You know we don't really have much day doctors say that humans are very different from animals. It fifty thousand years of human evolution got to a point that out objective functions are reasonably similar to animal at Adama's objective function. I. Would Argue. which basically takes in energy and a need to perpetuate the jeans and so so you seem to have some. Expectations of human scare. Of course I why think that? Human Stephen humans own animals. things maybe a new some hands struck to. The but the. You know. To produce new ideas to -nology to help laws to hell. All these things it's Just. A nod level of consciousness I don't say that the. Not Conscious. But the layers of consciousness defense full. Full the Huma Be. Okay so You can't collective consciousness and you say. So guys will transition towards a nonprofit society that is the solution that'd be going to discuss in detail. Requires a change in the collective consciousness. In nonprofit society cannot be based on negative values. Here's egoism greed envy and competitiveness. which are the key drivers approved capitalism and you want to replace the human trades into solidarity cooperation on honesty respect, understanding tolerance, and pushing typically. Look around Cav any indication that these bad us humans approved US toward these values. Wholly, as hell you. Beheld disaster happens like Earth Greg flawed or something like that. Humans head one another day. Most people I mean most people. Some. Tired see her Cihan Socio Bads, but did small percentage. people would but. They educated in different rate I think that education is really important in this matter. If you're. A you're educated. Won't. Be, competitive. Beats these one be better than he? WOULD BE BAD Differ yes. Yes and you know you pointed out some empirical data. So you saying the ancient Rome as well as late in the US slavery was taken for Gandhi. Added No, they're controversial. and over to the graduate shift collective concerts slavery came came to be deemed acceptable and was actively abolish. So you you have some. Sort of long term. Longitudinal data that says, you know things that he believed today that could be essentially maybe deemed completely unacceptable in the future and so what you're saying is an export thinking about. You know really different based organized society and and and KAFFA characteristics of a modern society? Yes baby sound the some a communist I. I don't know what? But they. They just just. CAN'T RUN CANEA starting was not communism you know that's Stunning Dictatorship. It's Nothing to do with communism. So that's why allied the the communism. With the. I think that the steal one of the best on the lives of economics system was expected. He mates. One. Mistake The he said that you come to socialism communism it. Could be a big mistake. Because People who perform. Russian of usually sociopaths. Come to the bottle. And it can number book. It's A I think that psalms contentment. Levy people understanding. Debts deputies, goodful done. That's a bad for gun. That's good for them. You know this good kinks, the bust. Knew that if people are happy, there would be good. Yes getting to some prescriptive ideas that you have from some improvement perspective. So one access that discuss in detail is monetary reform. And you say one of the first steps to would have more stable system should be in changing the method of issuing money. central banks would take over the right to create new money from commercial banks and have a high degree of independence from governments and contouring funding circulation. So you want you want essentially take the power away from central. Banks. who essentially create money through the Monteplier is set. that does afforded to them by by the Cottam, system. and you say new money not to be issued as loans translate directly into the state budget as grant funds from the Central Bank. Do you want to do under talk a bit in detail about Components of Monica reform that you're suggesting. said it's Worth so Maybe, one condition new mommy from Dacian in London. The era date, this system, but. It's basically a simple. New Money new is produce some Nazi. Soak. Season that. The state. Which has center bank. And to the Defensive Bank, his owned by the state or country yet. This bank issue new money for massing. Then state owes this banker money it. Is illogical but that's not the main problem. The men club is that this humanity money is issued for interest. So, if central bank is hugh one million years. Until the choir to millions. Stayed Gandhi stimulants, coney printed long million. You know it's impossible this. This longest. Non Cannot be paid the snow rate electical way to pay these. Debts. Until you daily some side to the roadblock. When you see this WILL DEBT TO SECRECY PHILLIES SECONDS And now it's about. Two hundred. Dollars off. Right so that they do issue state one as the Monteplier sect that commercial banks essentially create. Let's go freak money. you know based on the based on the Sandbank Bank issued currency. you want you don't want to have died. You want to take that out of the equation. So you want the federal bank sort of a the central bank issued currency, go directly to the states. and and then get allocated really from a portfolio management perspective get allocated into into societal. Goals. and the other aspect you say is that. The interest equation. that the cabin the system is primarily the the banks have differential. In interest right between depositors depositors get almost nothing. and is taking the lawn and appearing introspective that back to the bank. Show. So you won't eliminate both of these things, right Yes, but it's not just that the depositor hessler interest in the bank yet bill Ramiz the bank. Monday for laughing. You know ran who take a loan in the bank. Did just try to number is newly nothing else. They wanting to for this money. It's It's crazy. It's really crazy but. It's No way that this is. Only A. Forgot the thanks for God. The death doesn't guys. So necessarily. Right and You sight a you know a real situation of the EU. where you know essentially the the formation of the EU took away the more likely flexibility that all the EU states had right. So now you have a situation where some states are going to fail and essentially. You know get based out by by system. SORTA happen to to know it's happened to Greece happen to Spanish happens the. The you know the bankrupt yield is so they can't now take. Big loaning big. Measures, which are some totalitarian sensible measures in Oak. Across in this. Was Staley. This system is the class. But. I am full said he puts this Istanbul gross steady does not help. Break Right, and so new suggested Nubia of doing this. There are two major attributes The new money that central banks create the control circulation to be deposited directly to state budgets as Dan Funds. and loans. And governments would bend put this money into circulation by spending it for the purpose of covering part of their obligations. and. So in the EU context. Yell. The Central Bank essentially gives allocation STU the. Members of the U. Yes. Solely Mile You. Know, it would be like you know the some great gypsy new some the other projects which ought financed by. You. This so now states have to pay. To Your? So that, there is this budget. But the the new money would declared that in this way. payments needed from countries. For different states to pay to the you. Could. Be. For. Those Big projects, such projects Agenda. You'd be commission. And so you want do sort of take out the middleman there. And and also you want commercial banks. You say would no longer be able to issue loans that are not based on money received from central banks. So it all sort of the money that they create should not exist. banks would be prevented from issuing new money as loans, which now makes up about ninety five percents of separation. and. So in both cases, you're basically taking over the middleman right Sepah Bank directly to the state. Yes I think Because now. You'll see we hill a sector national sector. Really, sector, they are the economy use something. Some good. Some syllabuses is what they are and the financial sector. Not. But. Leah owes. To financial sector. Is it logical? It is not. The problem is always implementation. So you know you say unfortunately, it's doubtful that the reform or any other like will happen in the U. the big require the consensus of all all euro-zone member states, and that would be near impossible to reach without proper shift in the collective consciousness. At. So in some senses saying society has grew up before before you can get here. As does that is the reason I will this book some some some people may understand more what is really happening. and. What will be battle and did the I'll battle race. To function. This is the main reason. Yeah. Yeah. And along the same lines. So the other part of this puzzled. A system in which is used strictly as a medium of exchange. Than capital maybe establishing Pavlik existing monetary system and because actually an example this in Switzerland. said. Many example edges are. Thing. The the greatest. Wide. Bank in Switzerland. Richer reach. Lantz nine resulting. You know it's minded team states. Exchange stint. Money. Held the demanded should care. This. Means of exchange you don't understand this you just have to have to. Run. Selling by. Now, there's no money. What the what concerns do fleece the one the by something. And he looked. I will note. Yet, and this is all you'll note. The other person? Could you back and get something back for this? You'll note so is. Not Basically money. You're the system. Works just like that you know the total amount of money in such a system zeal. Some Haute. And the No. No that the the money in the system is you and tinted up a bills Manila, it's needed subpoenas. Appeals when it's needed is not needed anymore. Yay. It's sort of a bartering going back to W y'all are bank in Switzerland. It's sort of a bottling system but what is being bartered is given value. And that value is kept captain alleged right? So you have something like forty, five, thousand small and medium-sized enterprises added on fifteen thousand individuals transacting base. So it's not a small. A small system and you you'd spit easy to set out, Yep yes. It's quite a big system but in the in the scope of work monetize system, it's tiny. You. See the wanted she said each lipizzaner about seventy five percents of three straight. Pump Baghdad. Until. It's only three straight fluids snubbed beat but. It's loud. You know. Its. Function and rightly seems a stink in dime. So crisis financial crisis. The percentage of. This is some. Increased. Snow Kaiser see decrease decreases. So dead's right. didn't. Was Not affected those. Financial Prize. Yet another affected Swiss didn't have. Yet that's so interesting. You know it's sort of I didn't want to go to the shadow system, but it offers flexibility to the financial system. The Bay that Wer is working they have they have sort of on currency, right? It's It's really for a company currency wwl Franck, C. It's W.. And as you say it kicks into gear when they're discontinuity and there is it all the the the financial system can really cope with that discontinuing the day you can go to the basics here. bridges. Really Putting a value on the on the on the real asset that is being transacted. At keeping value in the ledger rather than issuing money. You've learned to in this. You, did go on TV need. Not Thinking Ledger just Just, you. Every by the. His own line you know when you right I you know. You you should money right and then you get this is you note back You destroy. Destroy this money it's go. It's out. But somebody has to keep the the records, right? Yes. Yes. That that's A. That's of the banking. System. Basically. Not a phillies. It just takes. Who Owes who how much? And as you say a again, you know Florida such system in place elite be clarified as collateral for non-performing loans that method of limiting negative and positive account balances ensuring investment funds, and so forth. You say luckily, most of these details have already been worked out but W I are banks functioning functioning bang detests being floated on time right. Yes I think that the most August. Fullerton day choice for menu small systems places around Kimes e fancily you local. In this system. So I think yes. If you go larger. I I'm sure that some algorithms will do was killed but I mean, did they're? Usually a solo US diplo brand will. Exponentially exults. Spray. The I wanted Jamie do another item that talk about you say capitalism has built in positive feedbacks. which make it unstable ability of economic system is Dan for turbulent make a positive feedback process. And you suggest progressive tax process reduces that positive feedback. Out. But you also suggest son of a progressive tax on earnings you WANNA talk a bit about that. Yes. You know this is a form. Of. Is Not my job is. On the lighting system since the Buick. GMC No in digital signal. Sad think and. The. The system. Positive. Feedback. If the outward positive affects input. Greece become unstable. Let's let I see spas feedback in this. One interest in the. Cockpit on. Capitol until smoke US know this is. Positive feedback. And now the positive three that case Labor market. No. been. Is Good for had They by. The new jobs within becomes the tons slow. People losing their jobs, the him, no mining people is losing job. The less people has mining looking for his job and it's go stop and. STICK POSITIVE TO FEEDBACK Okay. Okay and so you have suggestions You know most countries have some sort of is a tax on our up on profits. US suggesting also a progressive tax on earnings, not just on prophets to sort of damp and the positive feedback effect. Just saw. Even suggest more not on the Buzzer to. The But avoiding traffic at all. You know the the. Nothing the content the finishing of profit. Because Sir adobe. Office than. We paid local small. Note. They. You know. It's The Reach own expense. Good. Bait. was. Also Helpful amortization up fuel machines building. So dancing ruts left. So. This is. This is more than you. Ducatis more than us is US world. Doing The disclosure split lacking because is positive feedback. Or? Arriving that's the name nonprofit society. And also this. Has. Just set A. Station of income yes. It's a negative feedback because if you you come to certain run because taxes are becoming. Too high you out. So limit. The ince's, blue. Right right. So aspect which I find very compelling is. Strengthening. Social Security and social security in the in the larger context here not just social security in the US. and. And then you say. Countries with high level of social security have fallen crime in this day and age, they should be no difficulty in meeting the basic needs. Intact population social security might be strengthened by minimizing process But You know one of the one of the years that there are a lot of debate says you know both in the US and elsewhere is society of universal basic. Income. Yeah. and use fight actually an experiment that was done in Canada right and The data was named recently that data centre by she wanted to talk a bit about that does Dawson Canada? Yes this was experimenting Successful Experiment I. Mentioned now. A new extents ongoing I know yet But in this. Order expectations did to be not work than the de the basic income. It's still before. A fourth nearby hot gloomily could more because they held the ties so Minimum. A dope of. College. So disk does. Not. people. that. Very positive, but the abondoned because. You know the Yes. This was something that was done. Don't go. In seventy, thousand, nine, hundred, seventy, seven. And the the U B I was you know clutch small three, hundred, fifty dollars per person. And if you look at the date now you know doing that forty at times dated by the experiment was run. You say that the they will not applause infects such as children improved their school performance number of hospitalizations declined sharply as significant throb in domestic violence, mental illnesses, and so all the positive affects. exist and The challenge against you be is sometimes as you say, is people just stop working watched proven to be untrue because use only one percent fewer working hours. For men only but flights and feel working. Women so It seems like. It of the supporters of you be i. what they say is actually he's gone out in this experiment. Yes No I said I. Don't know now by connor died data. Hitler but I think in Finland. is now performed such expanded thing yet but. I think they get to seniors us. Doug experiments. pleased. Budget before. By the dates but. You. Homeless people some them out of Miami in London I. Think. Day, team to their lives, they get divorced they get. The do will no more homeless people. So. Does sex plan shows that. The also a I don't know that. Voting. Brian if you saw that movie. The the Shows that the context we more social security has less crime. Really simple. Right right yeah. I mean there are two issues. One is sort of the initial conditions It's really difficult to go from absolutely nothing. Two hundred thousand dollars in net towards it's actually is almost infinitesimally infinitely easier I should say. Go from hundred. Thousand to one billion. And that is not something that's been understood. So that is an initial conditions problem. and then there is us, you know the the the stream of income bitches sort of the downside risk management aspect, right? If, you continuously worry about the downside risk. It's just show up in healthcare expenses is going to show up in all sorts of society really bad things, and so if you have the downside protection, you actually gain a lot lot from society. Didn't quite understand what q wanted to. Yes. So the first thing you know about initial conditions meaning somebody who does not have anything. is going to have great difficulty to climb out of it. The homeless situation that you described. in. The Knowledge can see the that you just divide the basic. The daisy. Of decently, lead? To early by You know. Not to. Some high standard to some you know. Jazz scene. Era Of. Airplanes but the basic leering and. This the state of the -nology is. Out is SPA. And then you know you talk about many of the things that people are thinking about van be have. What economists would call market failures. And they are things like health care expensive schooling public plans petition. and. You know if if these sort of things exist. In the in the you know sort of the downside risk management. system then people can people can get healthy, they can get educated. And it will. It has significant societal returns in the long run. Right. So you know what people say, these things that costly, but they're not just looking at, they're not looking at the entire system caused in the long run I. Think. You know this idea that costly. It's so long. It's only minding money which is produced. By, banks, from nothing. Yes, you know you. Want to build something when people who visit. and. You have people you material, but bank. Do not give you money and you cannot visit. Yet. It's good. Yet, Yeah Yeah. And so successful in conclusion So you have a set of ideas. Here are be no some of the problems that exist it's not just one country it's all around the world. You have yourself said that some sort of social consciousness enhancement of increasing social consciousness is needed before some of these ideas could go into implementation Do you think you will be in safe five years? Ten years down the road? Will. Really help to safely manage. Happening around the. You See. Let's say US go. But in new devote ecology ecology yet, then the idea slowly will will go now. ecology. Ecology food to. Roofing and so on. It's slowly slowly going does some. Out Slowly. But. He does. So you are you're optimistic today. I I, hold it the those cooking With not block it too much channel. The night. The people. Cross leaning in need. The mind, her social blog and they road against fleet. against. against. As income. Right. You know that's that's the consciousness. Yet. That's consciousness they've solved. So back to what you said before, which is education. And so it of Y'all from key, for example. People are people are okay with affordable care act. But they don't like obamacare. which is which is the same thing as you know in the United States so. The politicians spin it. And it's very easy to get large number of people believe in something without really understanding what they're believing him. Does little with the Second World Wars said if you times his becomes crew. That's right. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. This has been paid so. Thanks so much for spending time Bitney. Sanogo. Yeah Yeah Good Luck with What you're doing here, fitting potent. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

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