Building, Media, and Post-COVID Trends with Joe Marchese
Hey everybody it's eric. Torbert co-founder partner village global aid network driven venture firm and this is metro stories. A podcast covering topics related to tech business with world leading experts. Hey everybody welcome to another episode of village globals venture stories. I'm here today. Joined by a very special guest. Longtime friend joe. Markazi joe is the founder at attention capital and previously was an executive fox and founder at treks. Joke what welcome to the podcast here. So job by way of introduction. Why don't you talk about the first company started and y you started it what it's out to do and then we'll get into fox in attention capital. The funny the first company i started was coming called social vibe and the idea and this is dating myself with my space but Here we go is basically that like if people were publishing their web pages on mice face. How come people couldn't be The the beneficiaries of the advertising on the pages and so you know at the first what we did was we actually had people post a badge to their page and they would earn points for the charity of their choice so basically turning dollars in charity dollars and like i mean it was. We had these pink balls and it was literally we were packing boxes and sending them to people on my space and influencers. I don't wanna say influencer before their influencers. Because i think there's always been but that was it and it was super fun. And they're not that kind of evolved into you know when the games hit hit facebook and farmville and you could earn points by engaging with but the whole idea is like choice base advertising then this just became a thread through career and was actually kinda the basis for tricks after your muted on online. If we don't we don't do at least one. Hey you're on mute. During the during every zoom than than is it really a pandemic exactly time behind your jerks took that that applies to kind of premium content. which is. Why shouldn't why shouldn't if asked if the future of media lives on demand interactive. Why couldn't the advertising beyond. Why does advertising i to interrupt what you're doing. Couldn't i engage with my hands at one point and then watch my content later rather than watch it and have commercial breaks in between and so we kinda took all the tacking apply to this. This simple idea which is opt in advertising would be more effective for people and more effective for advertisers supplied it to the television kind of ecosystem were large. At that was tricks was and is an actually. That's up twenty first century fox and then you been years At fox would achieve. There was your would you there you know at first it. Was you know to figure out what advanced advertising. And i don. I still noted danced advertising. As i guess it's i guess it's everything that sucks less than current advertising and and i i really focusing on it. Stare advertising to the viewer. Everyone thinks advocating subsidizes the content. You want so. Whatever they want to do is fine. And i i take exception. I actually think that if you really took an ad that was focused on the people who are looking at the ads you had actually ended up doing that was better for the publisher's content in the long run right like a modern revenue organization. My argument has always been a modern. Having organization shop isn't to maximize the amount of revenue. They make it's to maximize revenue while least harming the viewer experience. And if you're really good you can actually make it added to the viewer experience right like google search ads for actually added and so beginning. I was focus on advanced advertising. Then you know eventually. I was an overseeing all advertising for national geographic and fx and fox sports so things like the super bowl and the world series and broadcast like the simpsons. And i gotta tell you that you know people outside of tech throw stones at quote unquote traditional media saying that you know. Oh it's so backwards and tv. Advertising terrible and the first to admit. Even when i was running it that it is not a great user experience. But there's a reason why there's a marketplace's reason why it exists. The way it does and people don't understand it until they've actually been in it and so surprising state. As long as i got to tell you the number of startups that are running multiple billions of dollars worth of revenue and highly. Profitable is very low. As as you and i know and so two run the night. That was was absolutely a chance of a lifetime. So did that for a couple of years and then as some some people out there now fox and disney had had a giant transaction. And i kind of took that time to get back into starting things the and before getting into a central topple what they appreciate for from. Not being pulled. Read a little bit. They don't appreciate is at tv. Advertising works. it just doesn't work like like the way people see it. So what i mean by that is a you know if car can be exit. One hundred million dollars in total with this tv network in total one hundred million dollars effective not everyone of the ads. I don't need to see the app forty times and yossi show people who don't necessarily need to see the ad but you know. This is one of the big myths that that the internet has fooled people about you just want to target just the people who buy your product at just the right time and that's when you send advertising people and that's not true like if something's built ford tough and only people who drive fords know that then. What difference does it make you need to. You need to advertise the brother and sister and family of the person who drives afford you need to you need to. You need to advertise the people who drive cars. Besides for brands have social currency because literally society notes knows what they mean. And the idea that it's always this is all they is actually wrong and it is one of the things that's really hurting the industry. Is we fight over the wrong things we fight over priced the cpm and it's so hard to measure output. I think this is one of the subjects in alabama a little bit on with killing the advertising industry. A lot of things that one of the biggest ones is this lie of perfect bution measure. Exactly how hard my advertising dollars are working. You can measure exactly our. They're working on the first house and customers but when you want to build a brand i want millions of customers and you wanna bring your customer. Acquisition costs down over time. The only thing that reduces cash over time as a brand and building brands is different than performance advertising. It just it just is and there's so many factors that go into it was the creative good was the is the product good important whether or not the product sucks doesn't they is what's going on in the macro economy. I used to joke. I didn't understand how people say. Oh you know. If you work with me i can help you get our ally car company acts and then we'll what if our company axes competitor giving away cars. Afraid like i is. you're gonna suffer. Does i mean you did it. They what what happens if the car company axes breaks store. I've a feeling that the advertising isn't really going to help at that point. So i think that there's but but it's a very easy intellectually. Lazy argument is to say. Oh we can measure everything and so and people like since they're very uncomfortable and everyone in tech is very uncomfortable with anything being part art. They're uncomfortable with the art part of advertising. So they just kind of overly. I think we have over song as an industry towards that side towards data Is the lied. Both the possibility of it but also the it's not a worthy goal. I think it's it's actually exactly right. Those are the two sides one is. It's not like on what time horizon i see. I see an ad for mcrib today and six months later i go buy one like. How do we know also like fourteen other things happen to me that day. Isolating for which thing lead to lead to the conversion later. And you have the tricks that happened in advertising cookie bombing and trying to spoof attribution and there's just so much of it. I mean if you work with most at performance companies and some of the very big ones. We all know gone in. But like they'll always say our report that works and yet you'll see your sales decreasing and even if you don't see your sales decreasing you see your margin decreasing and if your margin decreases you become a commodity if you become a commodity you're just gonna keep re-acquiring your customers the platform so that leads the park to. That's not the goal right. It's a really hard thing to do because famously. Cmo's ten years isn't that long so or it's not when things aren't going well and so it's hard to have the kind of fortitude. You'd need to say no. We're taking the long view on building a brand and what it means to build the brand but you see it when you see a lot of these data see companies they reach a certain scale and then all of a sudden you see billboards in out of home and i mean. I'm on the board of clear channel for a reason like i'm not. I'm not trying to work my way back to the oldest form of advertising the hospital there. I don't think there's a smoke signal advertising company out there but if there was i'd be interested in it because the it may be inaccurate but it's very hard to fake worse is feels like attention. Capital is a lot of the culmination of your of your experiences. Or at least you've kept pulling this thread greg's Talk about what is attention. Capital and then conceptualize it your eardrums. What's the threat you you've kept on pulling think there's there was attention. Capital was going to be pre covid. And then there's kind of what i'm using it for now. Jim ensures kind of common and actually have kind of taken a second to say. I think take a break and say you know. Originally in the thesis still holds the attention. Economy is kind of what the entire us economy. Our global economy is based on. Meaning the things that we give reputation to we spend our money on like how we make choices on cars and movies to watch in what we do with our attention actually shape everything else like that was just a universal thing and so i spent a lot more time now. Attention in advisory work while i wait and kind of like what i think is the most interesting threads post and and as you know. There's there's two sides to this coin which is you know. After it sold my company efforts old tricks to fox. I founded human ventures with heather hartnett and human was this incarnation of like the the superpower behind all great companies as the people in this kind of very part and parcel saying about art versus science and that successes like you know where human spend their time attention and and what you demand of others in so that was the early early stage in attention was looking at a later. Stage like people are trying to understand the attention economy or their misplaced because they've high-value value attention but they're not valued properly is a really interesting space. And then you know in a covid world it was kind of a full stop and say will what would we think will be very interesting. Post covid and so. I'm still just kind of feeling out right now. we're gonna Few points you mentioned. One is in a previous podcast. You mentioned some digital. You mentioned something along the lines of you to we've we've tended to overvalue what we can measure And so what can't be measured gets undervalued and that goes speaks. Aren't science point at those really interesting yen. i think that's it. that's absolutely. It's very hard to measure. If someone goes to an event next experiential. We all know it. You know you know. It's really sad that we're not going to south by see us in the everyone. Can everyone can make fun. Thank god we're not in vegas right now Thank god and what a crush on. How much of our careers and our connections people we got to know. What is the relationship worth. I mean i don't know how to put a price on it. They you know maybe maybe salesforce and slack figure it out on star together but but they built our careers in your networks on these things and and they're very hard to value and so if they're hard people just kind of throwing. I'll pay for what i can measure and so i believe that there's a class of things out. There that are very hard to measure their undervalued in the market. Wha what's an example that the does mind to make it a big concrete for people. I one of the first things partnered with a james's firm who were lead live aventures on entre. Becca film festival. Right in tribeca son of these things where it's like it just brand that like people recognize. They don't know everything about it. People recognize the brand and that has intrinsic value. Jane rosenbaum's the like knows how to like put together an event and showed that like moves culture like it was founded post nine eleven to bring people back to downtown new york. It's the stories that told it film festival resonate for decades you see a piece of art that gets traded and ten years later someone becomes a you know a cancer research scientists because of something they tell me how you're going to measure that i tell me how you're gonna say i'm gonna show you the of film festival and is i. I love love of that. Space like national geographic back. It was impossible to say you know the sponsors and brands who worked with a with national geographic on on telling these stories about the environment. How many kids did they inspire to change career right like forget like what the immediate roi was like. The foreign brands like these things that are very hard to measure are just just constantly undervalued and so try to get involved as many as i can. I think one of the things you find though is you can be right about being undervalued but if you can't figure out how to evaluate you can't get a paid for in the same way so and i don't i don't mind picking up that mantle as a challenge every now and then the it's interesting we have ways of measuring real like the depth of affinity your depth of loyalty or of yet varies binary berta crude talk about stone soup and endure a. You're a real keep okay so and this is not to kill all the other business books out there and i hate to take a lot of business from our friends but i think the only book an entrepreneur needs to understand thoroughly if they want to be a great entrepreneurs the children's book sue and that is because the children's extensive is told in a bunch of different cultures but basically an elder young log into a town and the other. So we're going to teach this time to make soup from a stone. Everybody in the town lapse and then the person and the elder finds the perfect stone and then builds the perfect fire in philly people. Start to get intrigued to that. Like the really build soup from stone or make soup from a stone and so someone pokes their head out. Can you really make superman stone. And and the other ghost yes. It would be better if i just had a few carrots and then person goes. Oh i have some villagers says i have some squared away. Then that happens with potatoes and then that happens with onions on happens the chicken and and for children at the end. Everyone's eating and having a good time the end of the book and the children's lesson in the book is when we all work together. We all eat. And i would say that the entrepreneurs lesson is that motherfucker could not make soup from a stone by what they could do. Is they could paint division that got everyone to contribute their unique abilities to a singular vision. Right that's the fire. And so i think great entrepreneurs you look at it. There's only two questions any entrepreneurship to answer. Which is why now and why you why now. What's changed in the world because everyone has the same ideas anyone and says hold on. I don't want to tell you my idea. Because i don't want you to steal it and you don't have an idea but like you have to say why now in the world is a time for this to exist and then why are you the person to make it exists and that second but y you i would always say the answer is because i can attract people with unique talents to this. I can attract people with unique financial resources to this. I can attract employees. i can attract business partners. Like that's like so. Entrepreneurship is stunned soup. And like throwing throw and because you're never going to end up with whatever you put on that first pitch deck. It's going to change a million times. You have to be able to see the vision and get people to contribute to it and then at the end everyone elite the a of that that as as a metaphor i want to talk about the attention economy. A post covid book. I maybe let's do a little bit of historical recap windsor thought. Experiment for you is if we were having this conversation in two thousand six when you started. I mean you've really been spread for decades. Now let's say this conversation. You know fifteen years ago and we were speculating over what the ecosystem would look like in. The attic is in in twenty twenty. Are that Attack what would we have is similar to what we might have predicted or if you deserve talk about like what's happened relatives expectations. Or how do we think about like the different phases that are major turning points in industry. A yeah i think i think you would have predicted. Tv's fall a lot faster than it did right. And even even i prior to actually getting a chance to work in television and see the other side right would have predicted that faster In what you realize again. Brands are built that way right. Oh like data targeting human. The human brain doesn't work like we're not. We're not comfortable with the fact that the human brain we still don't actually understand how we have ideas and thoughts and how he shaped these things so so. That is one that you would have gotten wrong. Ever a lot of people did at the time know the rise of performance marketing but whole new class of advertisers so affiliate advertising so what used to be called. Dr on tv. That just got that last little bit. That wasn't willing to be paid for by the fortune. Fifty or the the biggest of the big in digital. That's you know. That's actually that is the eighty eighty twenty right like like you know. Wish dot com going public. You know sometime coming up here. It's it looks like these companies that there aren't building a brand. This is the of a lot of man this affects the advertising. And how you would have had predictions is. You've always said that okay. There's there's brands and retailers and retailers basically a house of brands right walmart and an everyday low prices the value proposition to consumers as we're going to curate the best that's available then we're gonna make that available to you then open marketplaces. Don't worry about that. We're not going to cure it. It'll be an open marketplace banking just before koga you started to see that open marketplaces don't always advantage. The consumer like why wire cutter exists right like like you. Don't go to the front page of amazon shopping. You go to the front page with an intent right in so. I think you wouldn't have predicted that. There's a whole class of advertisers. That are actually going to take a large part of the digital market. A large front of mobile a large part of performance large part of like social is affiliate marketers rather than brand marketers. And that is why. You haven't seen television really pullback or billboards. I love out of home because i as as hard to measure as it is. It is so present literally present. Irl ride and so. I think you would have. You'd have missed that. Those didn't decline as fast. I think you would have expected to see smarter. Advertising in traditional places like tv getting more targeted out of home billboards becoming the minority report version of out of home. Billboards where you know they recognize the you're walking by and they they say something to you. So that's that's interesting. But then i think because of those two market distortions the rise of a whole new class of advertisers soaking up all that excess inventory. And i think you would have never predicted as much fraud as it probably exists out there today. I think the open web barely exists anymore right. I mean how many websites you go to a day that have advertisements on it. That aren't a part of the big. You know calling the big fifty like the new york times or espn or something like that or be part of a walled garden facebook instagram. So then if i say the rest is open web. How much do you think is left out there. Probably not much. But i would guarantee you. There's billions of dollars trading and impressions on that market. So that's the that's bizarre to me. Still go figure that one out in the ad tech from like a venture perspective. I'm sure you've gotten hit up over the decade plus over all these ad tech startups asking you to Advice like How is it performed relatives expectations urges. Have you sort of approach that. That's face yeah. I never take my advice and add and actually i would. A most people shouldn't take advice from people who are jaded by because it's too easy to see everything that can go wrong right. It's too easy to see how stone soup is gonna spoil right. Because i know everything. And i and i've said this could make a lot of money. I don't think it adds value. And i think that there's a lot of ad tech out there that can make money for someone because it's it is it is eerie. How similar out some ad tech Say a lot of ed tech is to flash boys if you read the michael lewis book right front trading again impression. Getting past fourteen times before it finally gets delivered in each person. Took a penny out like what's going. There's something really weird and so might my biggest. My first point is i'm short in the long term. If that's such a thing. I don't think i don't actually trade stocks but i'd be short and long-term but like i just think that there's probably is a lot of money to be made right now because it's something feels off the relating. Let's talk about if we're having this conversation ten years from now which which. I hope to be doing. How many be different. Or what would you expect deserve. Accelerating the things you mentioned or any other. Major shifts are turning points. You'd expect that. I don't think that the market's going to correct slowly. I think it will. I think they'll be a crack. They'll be a break where like when we're pricing were only pricing things that we know how to price like like impression soleil but not all impressions are the same. I think it'd be if i told you that. All impressions are impressions and then we quality score them. I mean at some point will realize. I do think that the amount of inventory inventory hate calling back israeli people's attention the amount of men of real time people are spending in environments where there are ads is decreasing netflix. Flix ad free. Hbo right and the place where they do spend whether our ads tiktok snapchat instagram is. But most of those advertisements one. It's it's it's. It's a small fraction of your total time spent there whereas it was seven minutes an hour and television so the total amount of time people are spending with ads is decreasing and yet the total number of ads. People are seeing is being counted as going up all right so how long in that continue. Before there's some sort of reset someone will figure that out and someone will make a lot of money figuring out what that with that reset is. I've happy to advise one of those or investing one of those. I'm done westie trying to fight the good fight. The eh you're done because combination of Or the big opportunities elsewhere Or i think there's a bigger opportunity elsewhere much. I'm so interested in in you know and we'll get to this. I know that like can post covid like again. Local experiential is going to be massive. The crater economy is is changing rapidly right now because they're in multiple. They're all world gardens with their multiple gardens right. The tools are existing. I also think that you know it can be difficult to make an honest dollar in ad tech right like you if you if you're not willing to play the game if you're not willing to like you know look the other way on traffic acquisition audience extension and the thing. It's it's like you know. I don't wanna tell some founder. No no don't do that. Because you know you wanna be the white knight in the industry and then and then but then they can't make living right. So that's that's tough and and you'd love to be there when the when everything corruption but you know what they say all the time that Being early is is worse than being wrong. Sometimes because you're even more frustrated because you knew you were right saw I like the point you made in another as well where he said. Just talk about attention to comedy business models. You mentioned it used to be you made so much money that you made money You're trying to take everyone's attention or based on how much attention you could take a now. It's how much attention you could save the scheme as an example of maybe he will will save you. Bhutan does rita's. We'll tell you everything did not think. There's a whole. There's a clash of businesses right. Now that are saying this. Is this universal truth. This is true you know before before we got to the current state. It'll be true later. A time our only finite position in. I think i think time is equated to your attention and someone and i just heard it recently Might even someone talking to galilee. But it sucks about attention in time are actually sink. You can't multitask like there is a chart that comes out every year that like well. There's thirty one hours in a day because people have two screens open. And that's what they just want to say that that's why there's that's why they can double and triple count because otherwise the impression numbers make make no sense and so people are looking for things that saved them time and and enhance the experience of their lives. Meaning uber uber is everything that is an attention economy thing. But like hey. I can reduce my stress of. Were park in all these. There is so much more that goes into that in the scheme is a is a simple and so a lot of social media is trying to maximize the time you spend with them so that they can then turn that into something and then consumers are going the other way and like i mentioned wire cutter before and what's going to save me time but max my for the experience will be on the outset and i do think that's actually why i'm kind of bullish long. Run on things like walmart. The retailer meaning. I'm going to guarantee you that. I've spent the time to check this and it's not. It's not necessarily an open marketplace in that there's this kind of evolution of delivering value as experience in time back. That's that's a big big opportunity on the wall at talk about the future of of platforms retailers whereas brands future commerce. You was brand or or commodity. How the plano. yeah. I think that was all open. Marketplaces optimize for percent margin and. That's really really important. Because if i make something for ten dollars and sell it for twelve dollars. Humans are like two dollars. That's twenty percent margin. That's great right two dollars. But if i make something for two cents on a solid for three sons right you're saying that the penny. Oh my god. I'm not going to do that. That's that's no money. But a computers like that is amazing. Do that a trillion times. That's fifty percent right like that. That's a much better margin than the twenty percent and so open. Marketplaces always tend towards percent margin because percent margin can and get put back into marketing promotion. It doesn't matter whether it's good or not. It doesn't matter whether it's value or not and the platform doesn't take responsibility for the product in the way a retailer might and so. I think you're seeing a whole class of these and walmart's obviously gigantic. So it's just the biggest example that you go down to you see. These curator's of products and of emerging that are acting as retailers. Almost meaning stamp of approval. On what this what. This product is saving you. Time from having to go navigate around and this is this is not just true for physical products. I think guides to guides to travel guides to food guides to entertainment. What's worth your time is a big category and this is kind of the new retailer. And that's that's the value proposition the let's talk about post covid A few themes is some of them are sort of returning to your back to what it. What like local for example. And we'll get into it but first let's talk about. Where does he coveted. Postcode world as being fundamentally different than than a pre covid world. What where we changed the game and hesitant on this one. Because i think not not not meaning a bad pun bugging. We're getting a lot of false positives In terms of work from home or work remote and so forth because a lot of people who are working in had worked together in person prior right there was so much that went into people in in collision. You know peace tiny shea one of the better than like in our industry one of the better humans just period and he talked tons and he basically designed the ladd is people that have collisions and talk to each other and connec because back to you can't measure everything like like the roi human relationships is is just. It's immeasurable so i think more comes back than we think. Now i don't think it comes back that say it's coming back to work one hundred percent like we did before sitting gannett nine to five probably not right not really that in a lot of places anyway but is it eighty percent back. I think i think. I think it's more back than i think. It's more back than than we're currently living with. I do think that there's been celebration towards people learning I've spent a lot of time with the founder. Ceo and help him co fans coal reserves restaurant reservations and we want people just to walk away from the table. Like you walk away from the newburgh goes just easy enough to take a credit card and walk over now. You can't sit down to restaurant without a qr code so everyone's got their. There's almost like this. I think was alexia machine who can set it. There's almost like a stimulus for users because like people will try your product right now. Them's the things that were pre covid. Because i want to use the overused but very true. This was an acceleration of current trends though the Put a different way. It was obvious. Pre covid that there's a better way than handing your credit card and someone walking away. And why can't i have the stored and why. Why don't you know what i'm eating. That was obvious is very hard to fix because the way things were done. We're good enough and it was obvious. Pre cove it. That retail was going to change and it would retail is going to have to become experiential but now kovic said great reset. Let me give you my favorite example because you have to look for a silver linings especially when you live in new york city where it was really rough and i bit but if you remember pre covid new york city the l. train. Which was the train that goes from brooklyn to manhattan was gonna shut down and there wasn't anyone in the city who wasn't like this is gonna be the end of the world. I don't know how we're going to get by like the l. l. train apocalypse but we had a pandemic l. change sticks known even noticed it. So you know it's like it's like it's like you know if you don't figure out what are the things like. What are the infrastructure work. That could be done now. That could not have been done before. What is that fear. Startups does that for products. And what does that for retail. That's interesting let's into a few examples. Let's talk about the future of local and where you're excited where you're looking so i think that if you define the future of local into two big buckets right one is s. Nba right like arbor's in restaurants at you know things that are no matter. What on a post covid world you still have to go back to like otherwise can't a but you're gonna have to load balance humans at this point right you're going like scheduling software is going to become bigger and there were a lot out pre covid but post covid kind of how you think about. Smb at a local level like what is done for ecommerce for small business. What is that for all local like the interactions with people so smb is one giant category of local. Go down what restaurants which are going to hurt so badly coming out of this But you know there's a lot of we'll be a lot of chance to rebuild and there'll be a lot of appetite for it that was a pun intended f- but there'll be a lot of appetite from consumers for so so look maybe we have. We have some benefit here. In new york city outdoor dining soon be permanent. Took them hundreds of years to get to outdoor dining in europe. And we just skip ahead so so like so with all of this like that's the other part of local. That is very interesting is local experiential. What is gathering gonna look like post. We know people are going to go back to concerts. We know people are going to go back bars. We know people are going to go back to movies. I mean i am very very close and very biased to one that i'm how are people going to like. I think moviegoing will be a giant business post-code but the theaters won't look like they did in the past. How are you going to get to mixed. Use spaces being used to exhibit a movie so people can gather around it right. Both because of what's happening with tribeca and what christie's company is story spaces. That is fascinating to me. So if you find things that are going to want to gather there's going to be consumer demand for it but it won't look like it did pre it like retail people will want to you know for everyone who thinks retail is dead. You know the overused but absolutely on the nose examples apple like they sold everything and now you can't. I mean apple stores lines around the corner everywhere for them. So don't tell me that. Like i like that example by apple google amazon physical physical locations coming just about everywhere. I use that same example in in advertising when people are like especially start. Ups and tech people like billboards at so dominant. Like you know. The big buyers of billboards are tech companies. The number one. I mean is the top end television to top categories apple amazon google. So so if you don't know what they're doing when it comes to advertising at your mind the same thing with retail so that means it will be there but apple can do that. They the resources designed to do it. But what will that be all small businesses any anyone. Who's doing retail changing to an experiential mixed use spaces. Big deal that we weiner would you would you talk about virtual goeller or virtual gathered so then virtual gatherings is so this is more on the gaming side and or look we always over index every time of virtual worlds comes in. We always say this is it. We made it second life. We could probably find half of half of the articles that are being written today. Another difference today. Is you know the the epic and kind of unreal engine behind it meeting multiple building gaming environments and and i think obviously map ball has some of the best stuff on this. But can you make kind of virtual gathering of meet an i r. l. experience later Because i think things either have to pay off. I l. otherwise over time the value becomes diminished. Because you're either you're going to question yourself fully and isolate which during the pandemic to again back to like indicators. That are a little too strong right now but in a post pandemic world you're gonna wanna mix your digital interfaces to kind of pay off in your real world relationships somehow and so what will those look like and so thinking a lot about what that is. Let's get back to work in a new concept of new purpose economy Videos all right so the purpose canning lines on it. I love love love. And i haven't really a threat in terms of what makes the business model for it. But you know if you if you believe that we're in a place where you keep seeing an increase in in disparity of of the wealthy and the haves and have nots right. We're going to get to a place where we're going to have automated. We're gonna trucks. That can drive themselves. That's a huge huge portion of jobs and labor in the economy restaurants are going to become more efficient in so many ways. Like you've you've you've got tellers in a cvs and other convenience stores that don't need to have people standing so all of a sudden arbiter our economy will be just as efficient as it always was. It'll be more efficient. While produce plenty of food to eat will plenty of housing produce listening and you know. I'm actually i personally a fan of. Ub i i think i think that that something along the lines of you but i think you need more than that and i think that there's this purpose economy the same way i think in attention only the things that can get measured or being valued. We all know that childcare is valuable to the economy. But it's not paid for out of the economy coaching. Your local little league is valuable to the to the community but it's not paid for civic. Participation is valuable to the community but not paid for spending time at nursing homes and with the elderly is valuable to the community and the economy but not paid for so if you could take everything in the economy that is valuable but not paid for and put put metrics to put numbers to it. I've thought about you know. Kind of a serendipitous karma kind of like a foursquare for doing good deeds that just pops up on a map and the there's something to this idea of a purpose upon me and there's two reasons why i am so bullish on this as a giant up three. The work michael tubs did in stockton kind of Putting out the flagship program. For what is you be. I look like what's possible that how this is possible at scale the other is team rubicon which is run by a former marine them. Jake would in this idea of retraining. That's who have an amazing skill set to work in disaster relief and while yes it's great. They're helping in disaster relief. It's also just given a bunch of purpose and community and connection of human beings in this city. Look at these things at scale and you say you know who would be a great client over the next ten years governments as they literally print money. And so have you said. I wanna help build a system like kind of a new teach for america. A new kind of a new a new this idea of of value properly valuing rewarding the purpose economy and tying that to a ub. I that's my son's only had they're going go do that. And i'm i'm all in a the idea of going to be noodling on that one. How about in terms of Just the future of work as it relates to a distributed companies are How you see that playing. Yeah you know. I think you know a lot of people who can talk a lot smarter but like i said i think we're we're over indexing now for how easy older it'll be distributed but that means that talent could be anywhere in so you know i. I really started my career back in two thousand monster dot com and like the job boards job. Boards are really just advertising china match labor and employment. And you see the ones today like if you think about the muse By catherine men show or you think about what lincoln has done for passive employment. It's like it's gotten more efficient the labor market but if all of a sudden you said okay we'll now more people can work in more places. Do we have the job boards of the future for small. Like how does the small business take advantage of that. I know how big business takes advantage of it. I know how microsoft can outsource to africa like development. But i don't know how you know a smb down the block or up like is like which jobs are going to become remote and then you know. How are they going to support remote workers. How do you replace things everything that a job is so back to why collisions are so important. Your job isn't just your where you go to sit behind the computer for eight hours. I hope that your job is where you go to talk to. people about. Game of thrones at aren't your family. Your job is like where you were. You make social connections and friends and and so all of that gone in a distributed world. So how do you rebuild that right. I really it's the is the work of occasion but like mix settings versus your own office but then did they have culture even though their their their own company they think is does the location have culture even though you all work at different companies. Like let's the you know. People people over drinks talk about jobs so so people who can figure out how to replace or supplement. What used to come out of your job. That wasn't just doing your job in cranking on which it straight hours the the way to the future of connection How how do you see that playing out or excited their wall. It's it's in that vein. Which is i think. So much of our connection with other people came from a where we worked at. It's it's it's who your friends were How you connected with over social and so like how you interact with. People was heavily. I r l. Almost i right. And yes you can meet people distributed in you have it. You'd have a virtual relationship however that is but again there was always an iro pay off and then at that level you could go deeper in the future you know especially in covid world as kinda go back to a rebalancing what what what will that be you know. I think that the ones that have had the biggest gains in this last up during the pandemic as you see a lot of fitness right but the fitness aren't just fitness evening about peleton is is hardware meets content meets community and so purpose-built huggers. Anyone can say oh. Well it's it's it's an ipad screening bike. But it's not because just. There's no risk that it's going to not work for exactly what its purpose built for. Is designed tonal mirror. Same thing purpose built hardware meets the content. That's on it and you begin to build a community around it so we'll have that for concerts like. I'm sure you've tried to do it. I know i have like like during the pandemic like okay. Let's all watch contra friends and you've got a zoom setup in the near looking at the screen that's on the far wall and the sound isn't just right and everyone needs to. That's not right. So someone's going to build purpose built hardware so that we can be more communal around group. Events I'd be interested. Portal started to go down that way right And if that's the one dotto where zaka what's the peleton for for social connection if spoken some people who are working on products dating side. They say that you know the data in our. You're holding your phone in front of your face but like the how you'd wanna sit if you're sitting with someone and having a conversation day there'd be atmosphere around you that you could talk about. There would be music that would play on both sides. Make all of those things which are which would require almost purpose bill and if thinking not just repurposing a laptop Laptop camera or on camera and people are having now like they'll set up a ring light. They'll set up a will. The phone will be here so they can sit on their couch. But like someone's going to say okay all the stuff you've been hacking we're gonna make a real product for and make it better but the way you mentioned biggest gains. You're on fire with the puns today. Okay i'm retroactively making that one intentional yesterday. I thought we'd get caught. You were going to say Only just because that is absolutely taken off the that goes that this category of creators. Right like this this this idea that monetization following. But you don't need to have like so. All of the internet was based on accumulation of a vanity metrics. They weren't necessarily meaningful like most impressions. I reach one trillion impressions a day. I don't even know what that means straight like. I you know. I reached every every adenauer reaches ninety percent of the population weird. I don't know how but like they do. But like can you make it like. Can you make a cottage industry in a note. You don't wanna get the scale you actually to be. You wanna have like hundred fans in. His economic revival doesn't set of one hundred thousand fans and that seems to be would only fans of shown and it's been proven time and again Adult content gets there first on the internet in terms. Of what makes what makes money and then the rest of the figure out to a maybe a little bit about of booze banks and other regulatory mode businesses. Yeah so this this. This is new and interesting but like such interesting. A lot of my time with a tequila company and i basically i'm partnered with the ceo and founders a friend of mine for years and we started building in mean literally distillery in mexico. An import licence untaxing an innate. Us you have a three tier rule which means there's no such thing as real data see like the what looks like the is still going through the three tiers right you get it. In into an importer those distributor the distributor goes to a retailer and then it can go to a consumer and all of this is so it looks so painful from the outside and yet you realize that that's built in regulatory boat that once you figured it out you're on the other side there's a lot there's a lot of room to run and you're seeing syntech right now. I mean you just thought with with with the massive round that current justed. We were there from the very beginning. watching stewart like build a bank building bank is expensive and very hard and highly regulated right but once you on the other side of building on the rails right instead of thinking. Oh well this is easy a while. let's get direct to consumer. No you build a bank. You do the hard work and you're on the other side of the regulatory moat now. What's the best product for the consumer. How quickly can we read on the brand. How do we market. And i think the same thing and alcohol. I think so. I've actually kind of come at one. Eighty on what. I think about regulatory based businesses. Now i want to find people who are want to take it on but actually have the ability to do it. It is capital intensive to get there. But if you believe they can get to the other side. Then they can truly differentiate versus like most things indeed a c. You know not most. Because actually manufacturing a decent product is always hard to do. That could be remote but most things were like. Oh anyone can pick up. Pick up a laptop via facebook ads in there in this business. That's that's like i. I think that's a bad place to be the sutphin tag healthcare education. Yeah i mean like healthcare. I'd love to see someone do more with i. I haven't gotten anywhere near other than you know. Some some companies that that human found some amazing founders. That no it. Because it's one of those things i wanna see a good fixing it. I don't. I don't know and i'm perfectly comfortable with that. But like one sturt lynch lynch. You're on the other side of the regulatory. So the one paloma which is doing hypothyroidism. I once they figured out this is doctors. Treat people with tele presence. This is what's allowed this is n. it becomes. Okay now it's marketing and product and we're all good marketing and product they. That's why i get nervous. People pitch deck and it looks beautiful but they don't know have a have the guts of it have to work to and then your interest goes in the future commerce. Of course we've talked about. Is there anything we haven't talked about there that you're excited about. Is it a wire cutter for a detailed yard. What we're excited about. yeah. I think that is true. I think if we see people pushing democ start to pull back on how much they spend on experiences versus how much to spend on things have they trust brand. So i think you know. The same thing is happening in multiple industries in entertainment and in products. It's amazing have similarities. The barbell meaning there used to be a spectrum of quality of goods right now. There is commodities goods that you're just acquiring the customer one time the all the affiliate marketers the lowest of the lowest cost whatever it is and in the highest or winning. Lvmh right like like the. The quality matters the brand is nike patagonia. Like in the middle is going away right. It's the same thing in content right. I'm either watching you know. Hbo or i'm watching fx much. The americans i'm watching or watching talks. That cost nothing and the middle has gone right and sell. I think that consumers will be able to pare down two things matter most of them. They'll they'll pay up for brands that they trust in the reason. Why brand matters is brand. Is the promise of what you experienced. Last time with. The company has the same. You'll experience this time. You know when samson got all the flack because the phone the battery issue that was that a big deal because of samsung and they're gonna make more funds in the future and they had to earn consumers. Trust in better fix it and they better do this. If that was just brand x. Commodity why and it just disappeared like no one would have been held responsible for that right so consumers will pay up for brands. Because there's this idea in fox's favorite say this idea of object permanence it's like you know when you cover bids is and you shot and then you show yourself as ecoboost because like they don't know that you're still their brands are object. Permanent will be there six months from now. It'll be there. You're not can trust the ingredients interests the product and then everything else will be a commodity that i will require the customer events through the platforms facebook whomever and the margin on commodities trends towards zero That's the way it works. The that's a that's a great place. My guest today has been of attention. Joe thanks so much for coming on. The podcast has been great episode. Got him tequila. You're an early stage entrepreneur. We'd love to hear from you. Check us out at village global dot.