Jocelyn Brown on Branding and Return on Intent
Hey, everybody, the marketing over coffee playbook now vailable, you can get more info at marketing over coffee dot com slash playbook. Or just check it out over on Amazon contact me directly if you'd like to buy multiple copies for your team. And we'll have the full story for you next week. This is marketing over coffee with Christopher Penn. And John wall. Good morning. Welcome to marketing over coffee. I'm John wall. Today, we have Jocelyn Brown with us from allocates because coming to us live from Toronto one of the few cities. That's actually a little bit colder than where I am today. Surprisingly Jocelyn, thanks for joining us. Thanks so much, John. So we've talked a number of times we had your previous land stack and flow and Lincoln the show notes to that. So people that are hardcore tool maniacs can go back and check out that discussion we had previously. But the big thing that I we brought you on for and what I wanted to dig in with you bit is at allocated. You guys do a lot of stuff on tracking marketing and proving that which campaigns are working not working giving everybody a better I into how things are going. And a portion of that that we've been talking about is how it's not this direct marketing approach which has become so prevalent. Now, you this idea that every single thing you do you're gonna start today, and you better have five leads by tomorrow or it's not worth doing that. There's a lot more to it than that. We definitely want to dig into that. Let's start with Al. Katya tells more about what you guys do. And how you do it. Yeah. Absolutely. Really allocate is here to help marketers plan strategically invest with purpose and measure impact. So a lot of what we do are really helping our marketers plan together collaborate on that planning process manage their investment actively. So that you don't just kind of Shalva plan and then move on. And look back later to see what happened you're actually engaging in that all the time getting an accurate sense of your I your investment data. So that when you go to do that Arwa when you start trying to make really big decisions you have that complete and well instrumented data set to make those decisions. And I think the last time you and I saw each other. I think what really got us going was this concept of return on intense said love that you opened up with that idea that not everything is really direct marketing thing one of the things that I talk a lot about is the idea that you've got understand your results in the context for what they were supposed to do. So this idea that there's one equation that it's this are y magical equation. That's going to help everyone make their marketing perfect is kind of a little bit crazy because not every penny in marketing is spent to get that outcome. It spent to get annot come and you need to know what the point of spending that money is. But then you also need to look at the results from that efforts in the context of what you intended to do in the first place. So it's really that idea that the data set is actually a lot richer than just what would fit into an ROI equation. Yeah. And then so as far as how allocating ah works. I mean is this a layer that goes on top your existing stack? So that you can plug more into the financial side or how does it actually work? Yeah. Absolutely. It's a cloud based software a SaaS software for marketers. Typically, our customers are starting their whole marketing journey they are. So it really is creating an instrumented set of investment data. So. The middle the sort of core element of our system is money because you need money to go and do anything. And then once you've spent that you need to figure out what happened. So typically, our customers are starting ahead of their fiscal year putting their plans in all collaborating in one place, and then they're connecting to the rest of them are tech stack. So they'll start with their planning. They are go through whatever process in approvals that they need to go through. And then they'll kick things off kick them into downstream systems in downstream systems could be where you do the work where you actually get information into market, whether it's a work management system or a content marketing platform or some sort of an execution tool in marketing automation or otherwise. But then there's also a whole financial side of your marketing investment strategy. You've got to actually now get access to the money in spend it, so we're integrating with your europE or your PO systems as well. So once you guys have decided what you wanna do how you're gonna spend that investment that your company's given to you. You then need to go and do that. And you need to be able to spend the money, and then you need to be able to do the work that actually puts it into action. So it's kind of the front end of the process it integrates in kicks into the rest of your stack both your marketing stack in your finance stack. And then consumes information back from those systems, or in fact, is its own data set that you might, you know, expert input in with a whole bunch of other data sets. So it's it's sort of the front end of the process, and it's an integral part of that our li- data that really it is it primarily Samo driven. Then is that usually you're your lead prospect somebody's coming in. They just want to have better financial, or is it even can it come down from the financial side. Or does it ever come up just straight from perations? It's it's a mix. Actually, we do have some that have been coming out of finance typically, it's the most effective when it's either a chief of staff in the CMO office or somebody within the operations. Function nuts trying to tie things together. The priority. More often than not is to just get out of spreadsheets to have a place where they can trust the data. We get lots of people coming to us because they can't answer. What should be simple questions of how much have I spent what am I spending my investment on is my marketing investment aligned with my corporate goals? But sometimes we also get that sort of experience of I wanted just to be able to see everything because I run a large global organization in. It's impossible for me to really know if everybody heard the strategy the or the path and plan that I sat at the outset. There's a new kind of the chief of staff of the CMO is is a great starting place for us. And there's kind of a new breed of of marketer or marketing operations person. We're we're actually seeing people coming out of finance and moving into marketing. So there might be an F P N A role or function sitting in. Inside of the marketing team or somebody with that background coming in and helping the marketing organization because as corporations are really putting that pressure on marketing to show how it is. They're supporting the business in an if they're spending wisely, and if they're doing all the right things, and because they own so much more of the journey, and so much more responsibility for revenue we ended up seeing this kind of financial literacy being injected into the marketing organization, make you think about it marketing has the biggest discretionary spend within your organization, they tend to have they have headcount costs for sure. But then they have this massive spend that's spent in very small increments or big ones. But it's very different from how other parts of the organization spent they may not spend the most in total, but they they have the most complex spend. It's it's, you know, especially as we're getting into real personalization and strategies that are much closer to one to one. They have a such a complex. Hated set of spend. And it's it's distributed over a huge number of people like more marketers, probably control discretionary spend than any other department. So the complexity of the way they work in they spend is just so different than everybody else. Yeah. I want to dig into that too. Will then of course, now you're kickoff. What we just went through end of year where there's a lot of opportunity for people to kinda get your last chance to use it or lose it and getting real time stats on that can help things out. But before we dig into that. I just wanna take a moment to thank Lincoln marketing solutions for their support of marketing over coffee when it comes to marketing your business. It's all about reaching the right audience at the right time and connecting with them. When your message will resonate the most. So if you want to target your customers when they're engaging every day, and when they're ready to make a decision linked in can help you. When you advertise on linked in the world's largest professional network. You have the opportunity to build long term relationships with your customers relationships that often translate into high quality leads website traffic and higher brand awareness. The first step is talking to the right audience and with a community of over five hundred. Seventy five million professionals on Lincoln, you have access to a diverse group of people searching for the things they need to grow professionally Lincoln has marketing tools to help you target your customers with precision down to their job, title company name and industry, and because better targeting equals, a message your customers care about which in turn leads to more trust with your customers. In fact, four five customers who are on Lincoln decision makers at their companies. So you're building relationships that really matter and we've got a special offer just for marketing over coffee listeners to redeem a free one hundred dollar linked in ad credit and launch your first campaign just going over to Lincoln dot com slash MO. That's linked in dot com slash embassy for your free one hundred dollar ad credit. Terms and conditions apply. We talked a lot you've been telling me more about how people can you know, when you get down into the crunch like this. You're able to actually move dollars around better. When you've got this kind of visibility. Yeah. Exactly. An NBA opportunistic. If you have something come your way, be it. A time constraint like end of quarter or just a really. Great opportunity that you wanna test or try you need to be confident that you can do that that you can spend that money you need to know. What's left you need to know the timing of it? It's something get pushed in all of a sudden you have some money available. It really is about becoming agile enough. Because we now have all this data available to us. Right. So we now can have insights that just were never available for there's that Ogilvie quote. I know that half of my advertising works. I just don't know which half it's possible to know. Now, just with the amount of data we have. But once you know, that acting on it requires the, you know, where you are kind of financially you have obligations to your company around how you're spending and being fiscally responsible in reporting to it. So if you don't have an easy way to immediately say, yes, I can afford to do this now, or this is how much I have available to me. Now opportunities have just lost. Right. You still have this massive amount of waste. In your in your spend. And and the people that really are doing amazing stuff tend to be able to react quickly. They tend to be able to take you up on that offer or they tend to be able to sell it saying great offer. But it's of Novelli me in the context of everything I'm trying to do. So just that that visibility that immediate access to that. And the confidence that it's the right information too. Many people have to wait weeks months sometimes to get financial information back from their European or from their finance team. So they're living in a little bit of fear. They don't wanna go over budget. They don't want to overextend themselves. So to be really clear that they are. They can take advantage of those opportunities. They need to know right now from a trusted source. So you really do need to connect with your finance information and system so that you're doing that with confidence and that, you know, you're doing the right thing. Because that's the thing that always got me and you hit it right on the head. Is it nobody ever wants to go over? So. So as a result, you've always got this padding built in there, and you always have campaigns where you're like, yeah. We're going to spend about this much on this. And you never really know what's going to happen to and in fact, a lot of times they'll have stuff where people say, you know, we actually this event is not going to happen. We thought it would not not and suddenly, you know, thousand dollars poor in the worst case you reach end of year. And you're like, oh, yeah. There's one hundred grand that we could have put to work worst-case number one. You didn't go spend the money to generate some business that you could. But then worst case number two God forbid, somebody looks at the finances and says oh well next year. You don't need that your budget and actually take it away. Underspending is almost a worst send than overspending for a lot of people. And that's the other scenario that people will come to us in there. Like, we had all this leftover money we could've used and we just don't wanna be enough position. Again, his it's either a use it or lose it on his strategy or to your point anni- kind of looks over the fence and says, you don't you clearly don't need that you didn't spend it. But you've reasons typically for not doing not. Something got delayed product launched didn't happen. We not has a massive impact on marketing teams by Jit. If if your product release gets delayed, I've got customers where translation can shift their ability to spend money dramatically because they need to launch things in nine languages or more than that. So they've got this timing aspect going on where they really do critically need to see that. And if they're seeing something push than they know that they can spend a little bit ahead on something else. So you're not wasting time. You're not missing opportunities. And you're you're managing right down to the best possible impact, you can possibly have on revenue since very active thing. I think people think about budgets and plans as passive, but they are not they are very very active. So if you're going to be that active, you need an accurate in trusted data source to to do that. Okay. And now another thing that we talked about that. I would definitely want to dive into was this idea of the bigger brand thing and just awareness being a major part of of your campaigns work, or what kind of stuff have you seen in what's come to light. Because of being able to do this kind of measurement one of the things. I like to talk about is that brand actually creates an environment in which demand can work. If you're not spending on brand are your least not consciously investing in a way, it's not always money. Sometimes it's people sometimes it's other types of activities. But if you don't actually have a strong enough brand, you're eventually get a run out of the ability to do demand. So what I like to see people doing is looking at the balance between their investment between Brandon demand. Looking at the kind of intersection of those two environments. I've had a couple of great anecdotes at of the customer base where somebody will go in kind of review. What's happened and start digging into why? One region or one product line or something worked better than another. And they'll they'll go in the Laci seats because of the mix it's not because that particular demand campaign was perfectly crafted it because they had an environment in which that demand could really really work. And if you don't have anything like nobody knows who you are. And they don't know what to think of you when they find that out for your demand of these super -ffective and and fast to get that kind of loss that you need you need to remove barriers. And some of those barriers are not knowing who you are not understanding what you do not recognizing the promise all and then not trusting that you're going to solve it for them. Because brand is sorta starts with do. They know who you are. But it also says how do they feel about you, and it should make everything easier? Your brand the strength of your brands should make your demand easier. It should make your hiring easier. It should make your expansion easier. It. Should actually kind of remove some friction from all of the other stuff that you're doing. So we if we're nearing everything down to this idea that we put a dollar in. And we know exactly what we're gonna get out. We can over index on that direct marketing kind of thought and under served the brands in the brand really should be making it easier for everything else to work. So there's a balance to be there, and you're going to spend money with curiously with the intention of creating an environment within which you're demand can work. So that that interplay becomes really interesting. But if you haven't instrumented, your plans in your investment to understand that you can't possibly know. And so you're you're back to guessing you have all this data about conversion rates and things like that. But you have no idea what was influencing it at the time in in brand is one of those big pieces of influence on how successful you can be. In the other parts of your revenue engine. I would like to thank h refs for their support of marketing over coffee, Tim solo who's just on a couple of weeks ago has a new post out we call the subject to the future post Ray goes back in tells his previous self information that he wishy new you can check out how to promote your blog seven, fundamental strategies. I've got a link to that in the show notes and also we are still giving away HF's accounts. So if you are responsible for keyword research or just trying to get better placement with your search results and all kinds of other stuff as far as driving traffic. It's the same tool that we use for a lot of data mining Chris loves it because you can export data and do whatever kind of analysis you want on it this week's winners. We've got Randy Wenchel was drawn from the first week of the month that we ran the promotion and the second winner is at last the Etta James story, which is running out the Sydney Opera House. We're excited to help them out with their social promotion for their events. So you can check them out over at eight trips. And if you'd like to enter this week just going over to the show notes and click that will automatically preform at tweet for us telling you that you're interested in winning an eight. Refs account, but you don't have to even are just on your exercise bike right now. And you want to tweet to us. Tell us that you're interested in winning nature of account to the marketing over coffee Twitter account will enter the sooner you enter you'll be in the drawing for every single week. So your scope the earlier you enter so go ahead and get on board with that. And we'd like to thank h refs again for their support of the show, and what a great investment into brand SEAL, you wanna capture everything that that people are talking about and understand how they're talking about you. So I definitely see more people talking about SEO in in. We do were definitely looking at our SEO very closely now to make sure that our our brands in the right place and make sure that we're we're getting found. Yeah. It's it's just something that it's such a great easy lift that's one of those obviously there's people that are way out on the fringe doing tons of workfront -cremento lift, but you can definitely jump in. And if you're not doing anything with it or very little you can make a huge difference quickly. If you pay attention to what's going on. Yeah. Hopefully, you don't get in there and find out that your competitors. Have at all locked down tight. You know, there's still somewhere to go. But again, it's always better to know than to just be playing. Well, then you know, where to adjust your investment to adjust in slide. Yeah. Yeah. No that that's true tying right into to the way, you guys run it. Let's humpback just a little bit too because we kind of glossed over and got right into allocated. But you've had an amazing career as far as starting over in advertising, and then coming up through into alachua, and now you've kind of crossed over, but you know, what's been going on on your radar. What have you been watching in the industry, and what are you excited about Berg Gade question? I do love how I landed. Here. I really tricked into digital advertising in the very very beginning of it. I worked at doubleclick was my first real job. And I remember it was the first time anybody had feedback and real data on their advertising. And it was just this kind of fascinating place. Absolutely confounded ages. They couldn't pay their bills because they were so setup to to pay on hypothetical results when in early internet advertising, you were paying for impressions. And you only paid for what you got an inventory was kinda scarce because it was early days of the internet. I'm so always been in this kind of data driven or data supported marketing world on. And then I was lucky enough to find eloquent I got to participate in the creating of a category of marketing automation, and I got to meet just an amazing sight of marketing operations professionals again who were in pursuit of how do I make better decisions because I have better data because I understand what's going on. I've instrumented what I do. I spent a couple of years at oracle kind of going around the world and preaching the gospels at were around this kind of data driven marketing when landed allocated one of the best things for me was first of all it was a bunch of customers. I'd already worked for they were early marketing automation adopters people that I really respected, and I thought well if they've found this place, and they've been customers for a long time. There's gotta be something here. But even more than that, I had had so many conversations over my career around our y and such an appetite to kind of figure this out and every time I went to go ask somebody. All right. We'll wears your cost data or how are you collecting or storing kind of the eye of that equation, and I would get sort of blank stares or shrug shoulders. And I was like man this is like literally in the equation that they're trying to complete and yet it is completely unmanaged. It is not instrumented in any meaningful way. And I was like what a gap in what an opportunity to kind of close the loop on what I've been doing sort of my whole career is helping marketers make better decisions helping them become more efficient more effective to take a bigger seat. At the strategy table and kind of better support what's going on. And I mean, I'm bias because I've always worked for marketers. But I just think what's happening with the CMO right now is so interesting because their mandate is just getting huge, and they are often being tapped for strategy from digital transformation for innovation for major investments in in major changes within a company, and then and then all of the internal stuff change management related to it all of the stuff that goes along with transforming a company, so the job of the CMO has just become so much more interesting in so much more broad that. I love the idea of being in a position to help them understand their investment across this really broad set of responsibilities in capabilities and kind of bringing together all these very specialized. People. They have to have on their teams now because marketing is so much more complex than so much more detailed than it used to be. So I just love that. There's all this data. There's more of it. We need to get better ways of collaborating on it and connecting it, but the breadth of what a marketing professionals responsible for it just so different than when I started in. It's it's so cool, and it's very close to a company's ability to succeed. So for me, just the transformation of the CMO's role is what I spent a lot of time kind of thinking about looking at. You know, but I do want to serve them. Still those annual reports we see about CMO retention rates on the scary sign up for that. But I will always be happy to serve them, and I'll never be bored. As it's just getting more interesting art, that's great because swing on over to marketing over coffee dot com. Sign up for the newsletter. Powered by dot Miller that way, you'll get all the links to everything that we talk about in the show all the important stuff and links to past episodes all that good stuff over at marketing over coffee dot com. Jocelyn thanks for joining us today. Yeah. Thanks so much done. Happy new year. All right. Great same to you that will do it for this year. And until next time enjoy the coffee, you've been listening to marketing over Kofi Kristof. Append looks at Christopher s don't comb removed from Jilin J at j w fifty one fifty don't come the marketing Kobe theme. So he's cold mellow g by fuck Nostra's, and you can find it. It means. Kelly for. The link, you know, show notes.