JonBenet Ramsey ////// The Autopsy

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

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Then aren't orders fleet white you to stand by the door to the basement and guard. The door. Fleet white goes to the door but for some reason runs downstairs to retrieve the duct tape up from the basement floor. This is all taking place between one oh four. PM and one twenty three PM at approximately one thirty PM. Priscilla white calls her home. I'm guessing here captain but this is very likely to halt burke leaving the White House and returning to the ramseys around this same time officers Ron Walker and Larry Mason returned to the scene Saul Giannis Body and then searched the home afterward securing the house shortly after the body was found John. Andrew Ramsay Melinda Ramsey Stewart long arrive at the Ramsey House in Boulder Colorado between one thirty and two P M A detective over. Here's John on the phone. John called a pilot his pilot telling him to ready the plane. This to me is very strange behavior from somebody who has just recovered the body of their six year old daughter right around two PM John Ramsey signs a consent form to search the Ramsey home. Just touching on that that plane plane call to the pilot for a little bit here. The the detectives had to stop John Ramsey from leaving the the Ramsey family from leaving leaving telling the RAMSEYS. Hey you should go anywhere. We have a murder investigation. The crime scenes your home. And you know they're not going to tell them this up front and center here but obviously they're suspects Ryan. I think the way the Ramseys were actually thinking was Elena. Georgia was what they considered a home. So we have this bad thing that happened. We WanNA get back home. We don't want to be here we don't want to be in this house But that does like you said Hellyer investigation. I don't think that enters the investigation of the house or the crime scene but it hinders investigation station and being able to talk with them Adequately yeah and then regarding this consent to search form for the the search warrant if you will or because this makes. It seem like John's being very cooperative. Yeah I technically don't believe this to be an actual search warrant. You know one that you bring before a judge the judge signs off on it. I believe this just a consent to search form signed by John Ramsey. The owner of the home. This is just one of those those other little details within this case that I absolutely cannot stand. Is it regardless you know depending on whose magnifying glass you look at these details from you get a different story on what's going on here. Where the Ramsey defenders I would tell you look? This is proof positive that they were extremely cooperative. Don't bother nick with worrying about that. They wanted to hop on a plane and fly far away. Because this shows how cooperative they are they were signing a consent to search their home form. They have nothing to hide. There are an open book but then the ones that want to come after the ramseys point out there not really an open book because John Later says that that he thought he was signing off on a on on saying that yes you can perform an autopsy on the body right. So it's it's just frustrating. That's one of the most frustrating pieces of this case. Well I think one of the frustrating things is when people say only one huntings the truth right. Can we agree on that. It can't be both. Yeah I wildly. Where they say there's three sides to the truth there's yours mine nine and the actual truth not always But I think there's just the truth but I think with the whole wanting to go back home. He didn't go back home like they did to. The COP said you don't do that. That's a bad idea. But it's so stupid with this case it's like a non-point like yeah he's like let's go back home a don't do that okay. We're not going back home but they didn't. They didn't stay in the House that nobody nobody wanted to be in that house. Oh and I cannot blame them. I and I don't even know of John Ever went back in that house after that day. 'cause they Ended up staying with their friends. But but let's also be clear that around this time. They pulled John into a room by himself and they talked to him for a while and at some point they talked to burke by himself for a while so they do talk to burke. This would be at the he never comes back to the Ramsey's house right so they talk to burke one on one my understanding is it was straight up one on. I'm one burke was still at the friends house right. And he's over there you know playing with the other kids in their distracting him that I that's a troubling Ling aspect to this case too because you can look at just that whole situation in two different ways one are you protecting your child burke by removing him from the situation that could scar him for life. Something extremely traumatizing or are you purposely. Putting him away so that he doesn't disclose some information right by you eventually. Let him talk to the cops one on one John Zaven Room. I'm with him right. So if you're so worried about what he's going to say or if if you knew that he just smashed his six year old sister's head with a flashlight slight you don't let them sit in a room with detective by himself or with friends and others that he could share that information with Willie daily. I mean he's nine years old right. You're not there when they ship them off and also that's not just the ramseys thought process of all Burke Outta here. This was a this was the cops and the Ramseys gone. He needs to be removed from this site. The cops suggested that he should be removed from the the Ramsey home. No I think it was. It was like a collective effort who was a collective idea. I don't think it was just as simple as the Ramsey saying. Hey He needs to get out of here. One thing. I will point now here that I think is very troubling on behalf of the Boulder police and on the RAMSEYS is. If you're working under the scenario the child has been kidnapped from your home. A ransom has been called for in a letter. Wouldn't you want to protect your your remaining child. Wouldn't you feel that that there should be some kind of security charity for this other child rather than sending him off to some friend's house rise it seems it. It's another situation where we can point out that the boulder police clearly did not know how to respond to a kidnapping situation where a ransom is being called called for now but then the other day I think people that are pointing at ramseys constantly. You don't know what it would be like to lose a six year old daughter or how. Yeah you'd react to what you'd be thinking about. I think it'd be hard to think about anything and you go. Oh well they ship them away. So they're not protecting their son. Well it might not even be held to think properly so I think some of their actions right. That's what I mean. That's when the boulder police should have stepped in and I said no this. Is this this home right now secured because we have law enforcement presence here. He safe here right. I I agree and they should have done a better job of training when they got to the scene. Initially they should cleared the whole house and then they would have found her and then the crime crime scene one have been contaminated in there also. What had enough officers? Where you're not having her father pick her up and contaminate evidence and and then have the mother cry over her and contaminate evidence have the detective pick up the victim? Right and contaminate evidence. I mean it's that's pretty. Well not only did. Linda aren't move the body after John moved the body and this is important to the autopsy but she allowed someone to take a blanket as you know sign of To protect their child or no remorse or whatever whatever whatever however many different ways you wanna look at it. She allowed someone to take a blanket and play said over the body once it was removed to move to the living room. Yeah and then. To further that Johnny's feet were still sticking out from the blanket from the bottom of the blanket and lint. I believe Linda aren't told someone to cover up the feet as well so they took a Colorado avalanche the hockey team. They either took a hockey sweater or or sweat shirt and placed it over the feet of the body so what that means to the layperson basically any hairs fibers anything like that. That could have been on. That blanket could have been on that sweat shirt or sweater now is on could be on her body and or clothing. Yeah so it's just truly a mess now. Shortly after John on signs this consent to search form the ramseys leave their home they go to stay with the furnishings remember. We discussed the FERNS. They showed up early that morning. To the Ramsey. Home this The ramseys going to the furnace includes John's older children Johnny Andrew Ramsay and Melinda Ramsey and her boyfriend as well now sometime that afternoon John Ramsey calls and requests a visit from Michael Bynum who is reported to be John Ramsey's close friend and a corporate attorney. It is during this visit so Michael Bynum. He agrees to this visit and his during this visit that same afternoon that John Hires Michael Bynum to represent him and Mr Stor bynum advises the Ramseys at that time that they need to get additional attorneys rival. You're I think you're missing. One step. He actually got a call their lawyer GONNA call. It wasn't hired at the time but but that's why he suggested that John gets lawyer because he got a call from a contact that he had inside the police department. That said they're just trying to make this about you guys. And that's it. And that's when he suggested you need to get a lawyer on December twenty sixth nineteen ninety-six at the home of John and Patsy Ramsey. This is from the report these are the words words of pathological John e Meyer. MD He says the body of the six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to address identified. NFL A seven fifty five Fifteenth Street in Boulder Colorado arrived at the scene approximately eight PM and entered the house where the descendants body was located at approximately approximately eight twenty PM initially viewed the body in the living room of the house. The descendant was lying on her back on the floor covered by a blanket and the Colorado avalanche sweatshirt on removing these two items from the top of the body. The deceit was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended ended up over her head. The head was turned to the right. A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and ligature around the right right. I also noted was a small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek. A prominent imminent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck. After examining the body. I left the residence at approximately eight thirty PM at ten and forty five. PM on December. Twenty six. The body of six-year-old Jon. benet Ramsey is removed from the family's home before we move onto December twenty seventh seventh captain. I WanNa make sure that I point out here in regards to contamination of the body that it has been noted by several people. This is not one of these items. It's in dispute or up for debate. This is across the Board John Ramsey Patricia Ramsey. Linda aren't and fleet. Elite white all touched the body before it was examined right and John Ramsey and Patricia Ramsey touched the body several times. I'm not pointing winning that out to indicate guilt or to indicate that the ramseys were trying to cover something up. I think it would be a one hundred percent natural astral reaction to want to go to your child to touch your child. I'm just pointing it out for the purpose of evidentiary value. Yeah I mean it compromises. The scene we're not saying that to cover up anything that compromises the scene and And then we also know where we're starting from so the following is from Steve Thomas's book. This is inside the Ramsey murder investigation. Steve Thomas was one of the leading detectives on the case. This is from page forty one and it says it was the morning of December twenty seventh. The little body was I removed from a locked yellow outer covering then from an inner black bag. The paper sacks were removed from the hands and feet and Meyer Liar. Remember he is the pathologist began describing his findings. The victim weighed forty. Five pounds was three feet. Eleven inches tall and had green eyes is in. Some Green Garland was caught in her blonde hair. A single loop of white cord was around her right wrist tied on top of the sleeve but so loosely. The doctor easily slid it free. There were fifteen half inches between that loop and a loop uh on the other end which once apparently had bound the left wrist a white cord of the same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep horizontal furrow had been dug into the skin a gold chain and cross tangled in that legislature which was was tied behind the neck to a broken stick. Blond hair was snared in the not and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord which which was tied more like a noose than a twisting Gherat. The broken paintbrush used as the garage handle had Korea printed on it when when Meier clipped the nails of each finger. No Blood or tissue was found that would indicate a struggle. He used the same clippers for all the fingers. Although doing so created an issue of cross contamination for optimal DNA purposes separate and sterile clippers should have been used I for each finger. Furthermore we later learned that the coroner's office sometimes used the same clippers on different autopsy subjects. Oh that's that's amazing. acing great job there captain we go through the entire autopsy. I want to kind of go through and Cherry pick some items but to do the entire autopsy would be an exhausting process. It's over three thousand words long so I point that out one to not be lazy about it but to point out that it was an appears to be a thorough document. Constructed by pathologist Zala Gist Meyer Cherry. Picking some items here at the top of the report. Captain we have name Ramsey and I just WANNA say real quickly. If if you're not not willing to take the time to have different clippers on each finger I would assume there are some kind of protocol lets us. If we're GONNA start with that conversation then and yes. It's three thousand words. The I don't know if that means it's thorough. I just meant the document I said. It was a thorough document not a thorough examination. The thing here with these autopsies the gets difficult is your you're solely relying usually on one individual to handle this process properly as you're pointing out here. Follow Protocol and protocol varies depending on what county. You're in what city you're in what state you're in. It's I hate to say this but it truly is a bit of a Willy Nilly process. It's one of those situations where you question the science of it because it's human error and it's and it can be laziness it can be a number of different things and they can be opinion based correct and the other thing too. Is You know I. I had a discussion discussion once with with some people and they said well there were multiple hairs found on the body from different sources and that means that there were multiple killers. And he I said well not necessarily we've done enough of these cases to realize that that random hairs and fibers can end up on people for a number of different reasons that are innocent nature but to further that along and the way the way that I connect this to this conversation is I've reviewed at least two cases where later we learned that one of the hairs found on the body came from the body bag that the body was placed into. And it wasn't cleaned properly or it was a county that was quite poor and they're just re using bodybags all the time. The report states at the top. The name of the the deceit in is Ramsey. Jon Benet date of birth August. Sixth nineteen ninety aged six Sex Female Autopsy Number Ninety six. A you one. Five Five Death Dayton time December twenty six nineteen ninety-six thirteen twenty three so one twenty twenty three. PM This is interesting. They have to well. I guess they don't have to. But per protocol are supposed to put put a time of death on this form whether they come up with an actual time of death or not and in this situation one twenty three. PM is foot on this document because that's considered to be the agreed upon time that the body was in the living room. We know she didn't die at one twenty three PM and in fact there was no real time of death that was truly established. In this case. Steve Thomas Mus says that the detectives were told to work with a window of one. Am to seven am and then he kind of backs into that. A little bit In shrinks that window based off of some information we know to be true. The nine one one call comes in before six. Am so you can go ahead and take away six to seven now you're left with one. Am to six am right. I like that and I do like. You're going WanNa hear me question. Steve Thomas's actions in theories and how he came up with some stuff as we move forward but I wanNA point Out that personally I find his investigation to be interesting in in a sense that there are pieces of it that seem incredibly thorough. Where even on the time line of the day when the bodies found he has multiple times for when people arrive to the house inside his report inside inside his notes? Some people point out. What a terrible job? This detective has multiple times for the same people arriving to the house it. This can't can't be an accurate document. Right Steve Thomas never claims for that to be an accurate document. What he's saying is I've talked to everybody? Somebody tells me person a arrives at this time and then somebody else tells me personnel arrived at that time until I can prove what time that person arrived on leaving both in my report and in my notes both are correct so I I find that portion to be well done on on Mister Thomas's behalf yet because like you said I mean he's not just GonNa Kyi talk to this person. I talked to this person. I believe this person more right. He's same he's leaving it on their to improve other Otherwise and where I find it a little tricky though so is when we have the time of death when he's discussing what he believes or what he claims. The detectives believed to be the time of death. I find that I his theory in the detectives theory kind of wiggle. That theory gets wiggled into their time of death and the window that they create you know. They're making assumptions. That I think are still very dangerous to make in this investigation Wow One being that they say okay. Well we're told to work with this window of one. Am Seven am. We know that it was before six. Am because of the nine one. One Call we've shrunk the window a little they they want to shrink this window and I. We need that window to be much smaller than that. When the Dow unto Shrunken yes so we can really really get an idea of what happened and who needs to be accounted for during that time? The thing that I believe that they do this dangerous to the investigation. is they make the assumption. The the ransom letter was penned after the death and that the letter writing process would take a certain amount of time time and thus they can shrink the window even more. Have you wrote the letter out yourself. I have not but if I sit down and try to write it with my left Tan instead of my right. It's GonNa take me even longer bright but I mean do you have to guess of. How long do you think it would take you to copy? Well you say copy but but there's a chance that the author was was writing it from scratch right. Yeah that they're coming up with a an. Here's the other thing. How many times did they how? How many practice letters could there be? You know they're multiple pages ripped out from that pad of paper I believe it's three. Did they were able to determine that there were three pieces of paper missing between where they believe. The page one of the letter came from and the rough draft. Let's call Ah with the MRS and Mrs Mr Mrs I at the top of the page right but why I think people should do is pull out a couple sheets of paper and copy it start by copying it. That gives you some kind of time frame. It's that's under five minutes so yes it's it's a lot different to create one from scratch but if the perpetrator brought that note with them under five minutes to copy it yeah over eight hours if you have to sit down and watch ransom dirty Harry and speed when you're doing amazing that they didn't find those tapes at the scene of the crime right a right a portable remember those old. TV VCR COMBOS. Yeah Black and white yeah. The the PERP brought it with them. All right sorry. We're we're getting getting off track here. A final diagnosis talk studies blood. Ethanol none detected blood drug screen. No drugs detected final diagnosis cause of death of the six year. Old Female is exceeded by strangulation associated with cranial cerebral. Donald Trump L.. That's the letter. L is a period and Personal Care Company that makes organic period products without the gradients that you can't pronounce an only with certified. Organic cotton L MAKES TAMPONS PADS and liners with organic cotton. 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Thanks to everyone who has donated donated to the beer fund. And I don't mean just this week I mean all year long. Yeah for the last however many years. Keep the lights on and you keep beer here in the fridge while an our mouths as well picking up where we left off here captain to put it quite frankly Just to muddy the waters autres even more in this case. We have basically two causes of death. Declared by Mr Myers. MD A term that we will probably blay be discussing quite a bit. I wanted to describe this to everyone. Just so we're all on the same page. As we move forward the term will be Eh Gherat. The general consensus being here that a garage can be made out of many different materials including ropes. Cable ties fishing fishing lines nylon guitar strings telephone cord or piano wire anything of that type of nature. A stick may be used to tighten the garage. This is a Spanish word which actually refers to the stick itself in Spanish. The term may also refer to a rope and stick used to constrict a limb. This basically is a popular murder weapon and for Sadist. It's a torture device. It's unfortunately a term that we've used many times on the shell continuing with our exam here. Captain the deceit is clothed in a long sleeved. White Knit colorless shirt. The chest area contains an embroidered. Silver Star were silver sequence tied loosely around around the right wrist overlying. The sleeve of the shirt is a white cord at the not. There is one tail and which measures five point wing five inches in length with a frayed. End The other tale of the not measures fifteen point five inches in length and ends a double loop knot. This end of the court is also frayed. There are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper right sleeve contains means a dried Brownstein. Two point five by one point five inches believed to be from the nose or mouth. There are long the white underwear with an elastic waistband containing a red and blue stripe. The long underwear are urine stained over the Crotch area and and legs beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed Rosebud and the word Wednesday on the elastic waistband. The underwear is urine stained and the inner aspect of the CROTCH are several red areas of staining measuring up two point five inches. Maximum dimension to touch on this. What we've just reviewed here captain the in regards to the yearn? This is a big big thing in this case because what we would learn very early in the investigation from the ramseys housekeeper offer is that Jon Benet was known to wet the bed quite frequently as well. Her Statement to detectives was that often then when she would come in in the morning that patsy would have already stripped the bed placing the sheets in the washer and then when the housekeeper would get there you know she transfer them to the dryer sheets dried and then apply them back to the bed and this was at times a daily routine. I believe her statement was was that this was a daily routine leading up to about thirty or forty days before the murder and it just kind of gone away. It was almost like Jon Jon. Benet had grown up from that that she was no longer wedding the bed I might be mistaken but I think at one point. She was not wetting the bed and then she started wetting the bed again. That's exactly right. That's the same thing that I heard and I believe that was the statement from the housekeeper. The detectives also also found pull ups. You know like the they're not quite diapers therefore older children. Yeah I wear them. I wear them to concert so I don't. I'll have to take a break to go to the bathroom. I don't WanNa Miss Anything now. I wear them when I'm in the garage. There were pull ups found in the home and there was some question if Jon Benet was known to wear these. I'm guessing that she would. I don't see why pull ups would remain in the house when you have children that are nine and six six years old. Just look at the pictures of their house. Man It's a mess that's true. There's a hot mess. One of the the reason why we point this out here here is that one of the big theories that has lasted all these years. Is that Jon. benet wet the bed that night and in you know Oh anger anger in impulsive reaction Patsy freaks out and throws the kid across the room or hits her over the head with something. And it's this all came about because she wet the bed once again right and patsy had just been through it all and this was the final a straw she lost. It didn't mean to hurt or kill her child but that's what she did and then was like potty training abuse. It's it's actually pretty common like even people that want it. You WanNa think would hit their kids or be violent towards her kids. They can beat lead if the kid is not being potty trained correctly or not able to do such right so we have to address this because we do have in the autopsy report from the external examination that there was urine on the clothing. I do want to point this out go. We should be clear here that this could come about at any time. It doesn't necessarily mean that she one hundred percent wet the a bed that night now this could have she could have. She could have went herself during an attack. That's extremely common. She could've wet herself. After you know indepth yeah so to point to that and say hey. She had two of wet the bed and this is the only. This is the explanation. We've come up with due due to that fact again. I think that's a dangerous assumption to make in this investigation to further this out a little more and I hate to. I hate to throw the warning out there that it's going to get a little gross because it seems only sensical because we they are discussing an autopsy but the fact that our show is called true crime garage in in the When discussing discussing her wedding the bed there's also reports that she has defecated in the bed before multiple times? There's also oh statements that burke would defecate in Jon. benet bed I don't know either. They're one of those to be true. It seems to me like the one that we can really hang our hat on here. That seems to be the most true is the bed wedding situation. This this is brought up by multiple people and the the other bit. I can't say for certain that that I believe either one of those. Now what would be pointed out during this investigation and these aren't my words but bed wedding defecating in the bed things of of that nature. It was pointed out that sometimes that is what you would see when somebody is being molested not only molested but usually when they're being molested by somebody within the home or in the family the reason for that is that in those situations situations sometimes the victim will do that consciously or unconsciously subconsciously. Whatever it is because they want to appear less desirable or gross to the perpetrator? Some was a way of protecting themselves. Correct that I point that out because that is one of the theories as well in this case I also want to stay one hundred percent that. There's never been any evidence before after the murder of Jon Benet Ramsey that John or patsy had they were ever involved in any paraphernalia at all. Yeah 'cause be clear on something. They searched their house. I I they actually called it. It was one magazine that called this murder Kiddie porn murder. They searched the house for Porno and they did not find any right. So and then there's also a rumor that they had all these Books or one of the books on and their study was opened up to incest or something like that. I believe it was that a dictionary down that the word incest was marked in in a dictionary. I questioned that one to captain because that's one of those ones that you hear in more salacious reports on this case Ace I really question I feel like that would be a a more well known fact if it was a fact but we what we do know is the fact is they didn't find any pornography in the house right into top that off. These both parents have other children. There's you know there's never been any any complaints by any of the other children that that patsy or John was ever involved in anything like that and to further that out even even more. We Have Melinda on record multiple times saying her father just wouldn't be capable of such an act and that he be murder order or molestation while we're on the subject though of the bed wedding situation. One thing that I did find particularly strange in this case and this is well reported to that Jon. Benet Ramsey had twenty seven doctor visits and the course of the three years leading leading up to her death on an average that puts her at like nine a year. That's a crazy amount. The doctor when asked asked about this states that this was for the the pediatrician states that these were for all normal reasons. She did have some some sinus issues. I guess that would be caused for reoccurring visits. I also wonder too. We know the situation of the accidental time when burke hit her in the face with the dog club. Yeah in the face and the face That in itself. Though I wanNA point we now just just something like that requires multiple doctor visits. I was looking for like a a straight up list while. Yeah you'd have if there was stitches. You have stitches than you have to remove the stitches. Well we know we know that she went to a plastic surgeon. So just like you pointed out there that that starts with the initial doctor visit referral to somebody consultation. The the surgery a follow up right there. You have four out of the twenty seven one. You have a stay at home mom so I think yeah maybe four people that are everybody's working and there's not a lot of money little. Oh things you're just going to let go but when you have the time to take your daughter and for every little thing and you have the money to cover it. I don't think that's unreasonable. Symbol external evidence of injury located just below the right ear at the right angle of the mandible. One point five inches below the right external auditorium canal is a small rust. Colored Abrasion in the lateral aspect of the left. Lower Eyelid is Particul- hemorrhaging coaching. I'm going to skip some portions of this autopsy report captain because there are multiple pages that go through all of these petillo hemorrhaging and all the Hammer Djing. That takes place. We know that we've already discussed it. Strangulation was involved and anybody. That's listened to the show or other true crime shows knows that hemorrhaging occurs during those types of situations but to specifically describe some of the report. Here this part I believed to be important wrapped around the neck with a double not in the mid line of the posterior are. Your neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist. This leg. Sure cord is cut on the right side of the neck. Doc and removed a single black ink. Mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the okay so that portion portion of that last two sentences of his report are describing the pathologists actions he saying I removed it by cutting it and then I placed markers indicating touch took place. The not is left intact extending from the not on. The neck are two tales of the not one measuring four inches in length and having a frayed end and the other measuring seventeen inches in length with the N. tied in multiple loops around a Tan. Brown wooden stick which measures four point five inches. In length this wooden stick is irregularly broken at both ends and there are several colors of paint and varnish on the surface my printed in gold letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word Korea the tail end of the other word extends from beneath the loops of the cord tied around the stick and is not able to be interpreted blonde hair entwined in the not in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick. It appears to be made of white synthetic material also secured around the neck is a gold chain with a single charm in the form of a cross examination of the right extremities is unremarkable on the Middle Finger. Finger of the right hand is a yellow metal band around the right. Wrist is a yellow metal and identification bracelet with the name. Jon Benet on one side and the date twelve twenty five ninety six on the other side. This was a gift from her aunt. I believe from patsies sister. And I mean there's these little sad heartbreaking points in this case all along the way that just remind you of the pure innocence of this little girl and you know she here. She is wearing a gift that she just very recently received. Him was probably very excited to wear this piece of jewelry this she received from her aunt. I mean it just breaks your heart. I also think it's not clear in this is case on how brutal this attack was. And this is the way it was set up almost looked like you'd put a human on a leash and then you'd be pushing their head down as he pulled the the crop back. It's truly horrifying. I don't think that there's any documentary out there that has. I don't know what the right word is here. Captain but I wanNA. Let's say bothered to describe how horrific it would appease injuries. Are they almost make it. Sound like it's sleeping beauty lying in a windowless room in the basement and that's not the situation at all. There's if anybody that seen the pictures read the descriptions and we're going through here you hear the the the medical speak jargon and and it just sounds like textbook shit but really in lay terms it was. It's a horrific attack on a on a tiny little person and yet there's actually two marks on the neck one at the lower part of the neck and then at some point that became free and they go in deeper. And there's actually a couple pictures that you can see how deep the rope goes round throw almost disappears. Yeah and the line that it left at the mid line of the throat. After the fact though I mean it looks like somebody took up. Maroon Maroon Marker a Maroon Sharpie and just drew a line across somebody's neck that's how deep it looked like it was the cord was going into the neck back. There was a red ink line. Drawing in the form of a heart that was found located on the palm of John. Benes left hand hand. The fingernails of both hands are of sufficient length for clipping. And we already discussed that. They use the same clippers to clip. All of the figuring. Now you said that there was no nothing founded neath the nails but I I thought there was some DNA and possibly some blood that was found underneath the right hands fingered fingernails so in that showing that she struggled with somebody at some point. You're correct there are multiple bull reports on this detail of the investigation. The bit that I gave you was Steve Thomas's report one of the leading detectives. So I don't know what is the real true answer. What I find interesting is that he he follows up his report by saying we later? Learned that the all the fingernails were clipped with the using the same clippers right again. I think that points points to his thoroughness of saying whether this right or wrong this happen. Yeah whether it's right or wrong. This is what happened and then to to add adds to the weight of that question everything because this also happened right. What's the best way to describe the the because there was some? I don't WanNA use the word damage to the vaginal area. I don't think the damage which is the right word. Well you say indication of I've actually seen this disputed multiple ways one Claims that there. There's evidence that there was. At least some kind of touching to the Jonah area digital manipulation appellation. Yeah at the time of death. Then they also use the word chronic. Now when you hear the word chronic you think all this is going on for a long time now. This was this term. Would've made sense to meaning that there was something that happened to her days in. Advance of one of the medical examiners thought that this would happen. Basically a most likely individual pudding their finger inside verve China on the twenty second or the twenty third. Now Other Medical Examiners have stated that some of this bruising could be due to hygiene the bed wedding the irritation of the irritation yeah of having urine stained clothing on the skin right up against skin one. Sometimes they get time you get rashes and so then a mother would use They would get some kind of medication. The put on the rash and you could. Then you know that's where you could get some digital. Well I think to put it pretty as clean Lena's we can would be to say that the reports out there state everything from chronic molest ation to something as little as Irritated skin that could come from urine stained clothes or by this be clear wiping right right. But let's be clear about this chronic molestation this is not there was no signs of. There's there's no scar tissues to prove that she was molested molested for weeks and months and years not true. We're talking about the time of her death and probably once a couple a couple of days before that's all they prove. It also seems like there was wood fragments found in her vaginas. Well well I didn't personally see that in Dr Meyers report. Yeah I think it's saw that from loose-knit he does reference Fibers neighbors okay as well so again with this with this area of the body. It's it's really. It's up for to to debate really depending on who you talk to. This represents any number of things what I feel that I've seen and heard the most so I'm gonNA throw throw this in the batch of general consensus would be the just as you pointed out that this is something that occurred either at the time of death or shortly before car and it could be anything from as terrible as digital manipulation or something More vigorous swiping or hygiene. No no I I'm real and all that out what most of the medical examiner's state date as that the choking which people so half hazard we want to say is covering up for for something right. But the the the choking of Jon Benet was is after the fact and therefore it's covering covering up an accident now. The choking was not an accident it was on purpose. It was not meant to kill her. It was meant for sexual gratification. So if you have a they believe that there was molest station the time of her death and I think that that needs to be fact to me because it's like you don't have one or the other and a lot of people think because there wasn't penetration with like a penis that the individual would be more likely to be younger or a crazed disorganized. You typically see that rain in those types of of of murder cases so the report says a one centimeter red purple area of Abrasion is located on the right posterior will sorry him going to struggle with some of these words here. Captain Posterior lateral area of the one by one centimetre Heimdal orpheus. The hymen itself is represented by a rim of tissue extending clockwise between the two in ten o'clock positions. The area of Abrasion Asian is present at approximately seven o'clock position and appears to involve the Hyman in digital right lateral vaginal wall. We say all that to point out that it that that's basically saying there's a small amount of damage or injury to that area that bruising. Yeah one thing that is completely shocking. In this whole case shocking to me captain is that it appears that Linda aren't the pathologist who arrived on the twenty six th to examine the body at the ramseys home and then several other people as well that nobody realized that this poor girl had been struck over the head. Yeah it's it's it's almost like it took further detection that it wasn't you know you have the shocking scene of the Gherat of the cord wrapped around this little girl's throat wrote maybe it's the shock factor. And you you. You don't see what what might have been obvious but for all the reports I've read and stop me if you've read. They need the that are different. But it sounds as if this head wound which this this was a massive injury and we'll get into the details of it but it sounds like site scene unnoticed right. Yeah well there's no blood massive pulls a blood right and she had long blond hair. I believe it was was she to two pigtails or ponytails whatever they call that while yeah I mean that I if you've ever seen one of your buddies hit their head especially when they have blonde hair it turns bloody real real quick right but what I'm getting. Ah I don't know how much blood there was. There wasn't right and I don't know I would like to have a pathologist or a doctor I sit down with me and tell me the reasons why there's no blood obviously one she's already dead or near death at the time. Yeah that's what most medical examiners when they look at this say look. There's a lack of blood. So we they believe all the credible ones the most credible ones that I've seen in with this case state. She was choked. Who Sexual for sexual gratification? The perpetrator was and choking her either trying to touch her now. That would be random. That wouldn't be as much most likely. They were touching themselves salves while they're strangling her She there's defensive wounds around her neck meaning she's trying to stop the choking at some point. Some people believe that would cut off the blood circulation to her brain And there's some signs of that they they. I believe through the autopsy and so I I can't remember what they call it but it's basically where Y- your dad And it's it. It happens almost instantaneously Yeah and so that they also believe that you know normally if somebody's trying to strangle somebody in order to kill them. There's a lot of marks that are laughed like inside the neck muscles are strains different bones and stuff possibly can be broken within the neck and none of that is seen here. That's why they believe that dat these these bruises within inside the vagina are from molestation because the evidence of the choking doesn't I said it doesn't seem like the purpose of the choking was to kill her was to control her. So where where it gets a little convoluted is a lot of medical. Examiner's think that during this sexual gratification that the perpetrator then Either freaked out or or got into it too much and hit her over the head with something now now other people believe that the perpetrator knew that they that she was dead because they also there's also a temporal lube bruising in the brain and that's common when somebody is once a shakes somebody after death right and so so somebody chokes. Her doesn't mean killer shakes her. She's dead and then. I think I believe that's win. The the blow to the head happen because at that point the heart has stopped at won't be pumping blood to the to the brain. That would be one of the reasons why we WANNA have pulls a blood everywhere. That is one reason the other reason could be too is do we. How much broken skinned do we actually have with this strike right and the interesting thing here too? Is the the use of the garage in the manner that it was used very likely could suggest that it's it's not only torture device but it's also a sexual assault assault device where you're using it because that's what this this Sicko is into. And sometimes we see this Salat. In a lot of cases that we've covered especially with cereals that they will often choke someone almost to the point of death and then allow them to receive air and then choke them again right and they believe that was happening with her because their signs of that for for from the autopsy but those. Let's be clear that shows like. CBS is documentary on this case. It doesn't make any sense you can't start off with the idea of that. There was a a blow to the head. You cannot start that off. They believe this blow to the head would have made her brain dead should be unconscious minimum and then because of the brain brain swell in the brain bleed should be brain dead. And what happens if you're unconscious or brain dead you you do not put up a fight of somebody choking you right. So let's be clear. No need to restrain the arms right firm the perpetrators perspect- right and I know a lot of people are going to sit there and say well but but all that stuff is to cover up some kind an accident. Let's be clear that. CBS and everybody involved in that show were irresponsible for putting out that information. It's just factually not correct. And if you want to. I don't advise that you do this. Because you might have nightmares about this but go look go. Go Look at pictures of Jon. Benet Ramsey snack and see all those half moons of that six year old girl trying to stop somebody from strangling her. So this idea. Yeah that was burke accidentally hit on the head or that or that during a changing of Pajamas are changing the sheets. Or whatever that in Janis bathroom right that that she slipped and hit her head or got tossed across the room by her mother or or struck over the head with a flashlight. Right to the credit I guess of the of the people that believe Burke may have killed his little sister be an accident or whatever the skull fracture to me does look like it could have came by way of golf club it. I mean there's I if anybody looks at that picture and says I wouldn't think a golf club could make that Roy gear because strike. I would thera co well. Then you're you. You need to go get glasses my friend right because it straight up in the dimensions. So let's describe this because not not everybody's going to be fully aware of of this. The fracture of the skull fracture is huge. It measures eight inches in length and the way way that this works out is she would have been struck on the top of her head. But it's more to the right solid sign of her head. Yeah Yeah and the the fracture runs from where the where the impact hit on the skull and it runs all the way forward. Yeah and then what you have at the top where the impact took place. You actually have a full section that broke off it. It runs eight inches in length. Total but from where the point of impact. What we have here is picture a school where you have a crack that runs down the majority of the right side of the skull at the top of that crack where it stops? You have a basically a rectangle shaped piece of the skull that fully broke off on all four sides and that piece itself is quite small. I believe it's one and a half inches by a half inch. That's that's the rectangle there and then from there you have You would have your remaining so it'd be six and a half finches of a fracture that runs from that broken piece there. Yeah and and in cops were looking for this this possibility as well. Maybe not so much a golf club but it did look into that Burke had back on they did some tasks and then realize they don't believe that would the happened through a bat not saying that the cops were saying that burke hit her in the head but there were looking for objects. Yeah Then you have have a bunch of tests done on the flashlight again. I think that's it's reasonable to you. See you have a bigger opening bigger fracture than it goes goes to with thinner fracture. So maybe something like a a big flashlight. It definitely have liked the weight to it to to be able to do to be able to create that that type of fracture but there's also a picture crime-scene picture that there's this now most looks like One of like a fireplace tool that would also be like if I were to walk around. Someone's home after seeing the the skull when the skin skin is pulled back and see the fracture itself. If I were to walk around anyone's home and like pick up instruments that I think could have could have made that impact impact and left that Mark Right on her left that fracture in that manner. I don't think I would go for flashlight. I'm not saying it's impossible. I wouldn't go for flashlight. Ashok wouldn't go for Bat. Anything that's rounded doesn't seem to make sense to me. I see something where you need like. You need something where you're almost seeing saying. The broken piece of the skull is the outline of whatever hitter and that to me would be like. Yeah like a fire place tool or a golf club. Anything like right but if you look through the crowds and possibly it's one hundred percent has to be you know the the markings of what hitter. Yeah object hitter It had to have hitter look at the I mean. Let me finish my thought. Sorry so I if you look at the crime scene Infos there there. It looks like some kind of fireplace tool. I don't know what you call those but it's right under the current. Does the poker the things that you would like. Some people have like the poker's and then they have the brushes and yeah they have the shovels and and they have all different kinds of things things. Okay right it looks like there's one in. It's underneath the open window where the suitcases and you'd have to go through there's tons of crime scene photos but you have to go through and you can see it laying on the ground now. I can't. It's blurry I can't tell you exactly what it is but I go while we know L.. Where the we know where the paintbrush handle came from a came from that room right that that was used in the Gherat? A We know that at some point she was in that suitcase. Because we have all these fibers from her clothes. That are in that suitcase so they were gonNA use. Well you can say you know that I won't. I won't be on board with that one. I'm not not convinced that she was in the suitcase. Okay but what we do have is a suitcase as with a bunch of fibers from the clothes. He was wearing that night. So well again. I don't know that they were the closest she was wearing that night. The well that's the report the the House that I saw again but that I'm not sure I don't WanNa sound like I'm challenging you here. I'm I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying the information I've reviewed doesn't state state that same stuff right but right. Would that suitcase where that suitcases. Correct underneath that open window. There's a crime scene photo that has some kind kind of object and I just want because police have stated we haven't found the object of what hit her on the head right right and here's where this is what I question okay and all has to work on some order like Lou Smit uh-huh keep calm Smith it's like his analysis of the the intruder theory doesn't work it starts with a stun gun. Or what does the stun gun do incapacitates. The person renders them unconscious at some point right so mary likely to for a small person. We're not talking about a full grown right all. We're talking about a very small child. And how long long are they incapacitated for the this is what I would wanNA know I could. Yeah I don't think any of us can say because there's differing you know there's varying degrees of you've even the stun-guns but just as analysis it doesn't make any sense because if I go okay I'M GONNA go up to John nays bedroom and I'm gonna hit her with this stun gone and that's what's going to allow me to take her downstairs. Okay at what point does she eat pineapple so well we should be clear. Clear here for those. That don't know there was A substance found in Jon Benet upon the the autopsy findings that it suggests that she ate pineapple or a substance that resembles pineapple shortly before her death by it was undigested tested right and then we have crime scene photos that have a bowl of pineapple with milk. Which I've never heard of of my mother fed me pineapple who says this pineapple in a bowl? I that's weird. I've heard of yogurt and cottage cheese but never milk. I think it's milk again. I don't I don't quote me on that but but my thought is okay while loose smith loose smits smit intruder theory Hamburg or get downstairs. She wakes up. She's supposed to be met by Santa Claus. At some point she goes downstairs. She sits at the table. She makes herself off some pineapple. Maybe she doesn't make herself some pineapple. Maybe Burke made himself some pineapple but he went to bed. He didn't finish it so she sits there and decides how you the peace of this. That's when the intruder would have to come in contact with her right right or I guess she could woke up in the middle of night went downstairs eight. Some pineapple went back upstairs as possible. on then you use the stun gun but again the sun doesn't make any sense because once you start trying to control her with the Grat. You need defensive wounds. I do want to point out here though to the purpose of the garage may not be yes. It's control but not in the manner that I think that some might be thinking thing it could be straight up for sexual assault right type of control and I'm not going to go into it too much. I mean Maybe on off the record or something. I don't feel comfortable discussing what the garage itself could have been used for the thing I will. I put my stamp on here though. Well before we get into that. Let's point out that we're the stun gun idea comes into play is that there are pictures. Sure there were unfortunately or fortunately I guess depending on how you WanNa look at it. It's incredibly degrading to the victims. Involved in this case but autopsy photos were leaked to the press at some point and you can view them online still to this day based off of that we have loose-knit who later says. Look you see these two little looks like little prong marks. He's this these came from a stun gun now. You you have other experts. You have Dr Warner Spitz. And trying to think of what he's most famous for he's covered. He's done so many different cases but Warner Spitz where our listeners would know him. The best from would be from West Memphis three. He was the one that later viewed the photos and said. Hey these marks are Bite marks from a from turtles so that that's that dude. He says when he views these photographs. These are not stun. Gun marks there there there. He would expect what he's looking for is a stun gun. Basically is leaving an electrical burn type mark on the skin. Yeah I he says is that what he's seeing it doesn't does not appear to be a burn to him and I'll see that on their back the marks on their back that a lot of people think are like maybe a train track set which would have been in the room that possibly was molested in? That's another thing too you. She has multiple scrapes and stuff on her back in marks on her arms and stuff like that basically that she was squirming during the time that she was molested and so could she got these marks on her back at that point. Yes but the marks on her face I to me I see what what looks like a burn between the two marks and you would expect a good deal of struggle and squirming if in fact she was being choked and there was some type of sexual assault prior to death. This is what I said I was GONNA put my stamp on here. Captain Reviewing the pictures of the skull. I I don't know science. I'm not a pathologist. I'm not claiming to be an expert. You take this for whatever you for what it is. It's some dumb guy in a garage. Giving his opinion now I should. I should go then. Should be my turn them but what my opinion is based off of these photographs damage damage to the skull man. I don't think that Burke would have had the strength regardless of weapon to create this type of damage in one single blow. This looks to me to be one. Single solid hit to the skull. I also ole-ry sorry go further and say I don't think and I've seen pictures of Jon benet bathroom to theory that patsy loss control role in through across the room in this was some kind of head injury that occurred when she got thrown across a room or she hit her head on something after being slapped by Patsy. I'm not saying that patsies innocent. What I'm saying is this injury did not come from anything like that? In my opinion this is a single strike of of very violent strike to the head single strike with with a lot of strength behind it and a lot of force behind the other thing I will say to. I beg anyone to go out there and look up the garage or what. They are calling a Gherat in this this case because what I see here this is one of those rare times in the case where you see some level of criminal sophistication and what I mean by that is. Is this this weapon. This torture device here appears to me. This wasn't the first time ever constructed this. This was not the first time that they put put one of these things together. Well most medical examiners call these not sophisticated yeah the these are not. These aren't not made by a nine-year-old nine year old when I look at this what I see if you I would love if somebody would take the pictures it like if I could go back and unsee them and somebody could take away the words words Jon Benet Ramsey from the photographs and just hand them to me and go. Oh what's it what's this from. What do you think this is what I see their captain without anything clouding? My Vision. Is An intricate torture. Device constructed for the sole purpose of sexual. We'll assault. Yeah it seems like most of the medical experts believe again during the sexual assault during this this torture that this individual loss control and ended up hitting her on the head but at that point the brain wasn't pump. The the heart wasn't pumping to the brain already. That's a real thing. I guess during strangulation that that will stop I stay in it slows it along the way. Yeah it's still the person still alive technically. But there's no blood or oxygen pumping into the brain now meaning should be brain dead. They hit her on the head because they lost control or is part of their fantasy or whatever. I think that's a very good the possibility but like I said we have fibers whether you want whether you want to believe this or not. Because there's experts that contradict each other over over and over but there's fibers in that suitcase and my thought. Is that this individual for whatever reason the sexual gratification I was going to be better for them If they molested her inside the house knowing that her family was there there was excitement there once they figured out she's dead. That wasn't part of the plan in the ransom notes already sitting on the staircase right I have to get her out of here. I am gone to use the suitcase to transporter. I put her in the suitcase. At this point no blow to the head. I I think it's possible that individual put her in that suitcase and tried to lift her up through that window and then dropped her and landing on her head Yes yes. They're suitcase would hit I but she's inside the suitcase and I think that's possibly ably. What created That fracture you pointed out something very important in this case and just with every aspect of this case there's so many different opinions. There's so many different even expert opinions and regarding the autopsy itself cause of death injuries to Jon. Benet how those injuries occurred. We've had many very reputable good solid experts over the ears. Examine this case. But what they've examined have been photographs and what they've examined have been documents. There's only been one path. Allah Gis to examine the body. And that was Dr Meyers. MD Nine hundred ninety six. Whatever struggles you're facing for depression and anxiety to trauma and grief? We've better help can connect you with professional counselor and safe in private online environment. It's so convenient. You can schedule secure video or phone sessions as well as chat and text with your therapist and anything that you share is completely confidential. Besse Vodka truly affordable option. Our listeners. Even get ten percent off your first month with Discount Code Garage so why not get started simply go to better help dot com slash garage and fill out a questionnaire to get matched the counselor. You'll love today. That's better help dot com slash garage for all of our old episodes checkout exclusively on the stitcher APP and we have the weekly show on stitcher premium called off the record. Cheers the captain and thanks to everybody out there for listening. Thank you for telling a friend and thank you for all of the wonderful a five star reviews. Please join us back here in the garage next week for episode five until then be good kind. Don't Let Eh.

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