Little Atoms 610 - Fatima Bhutto's New Kings of the World
This Week Fatima Bhutto returns with dispatches from Bollywood Dizzy and capable in latest book new kings of the world they says little atoms a radio show about ideas and coacher with me Nail Denny and that has certain implications I think also in culture and then lastly American well any soft power has to be believable in order for it to be affected what's the end of the American Century and the rise of competing cultural industries coming from Asia coming from India from Turkey and music let's say I think the second factor is that is that migration you know we talk so much today about migration and people moving into other countries but actually communities riches movement for everybody and of course that didn't happen if you already had opportunity wealth and movement you had more of it indefens- complex today is the is the period with the lowest presence of American military bases around the world but that was obviously not anyway but he talked about how often that was attached to military power yes it's spread really partially through the the basis through the American example when the Americans were in career after the war it was in the basis that young Korean musicians would come and play rock and roll because there was nowhere else but if you didn't you you basically buried under the system so a lot of people hundreds of millions of people who left their homes and villages and moved to the cities found themselves first of all globalization was a promise that turned out not to be true so the world has promised with globalization with the movement of capital would common credible the most migrants are moving internally the going from villages to cities than crossing borders that brings with it a lot of turbulence a lot of uncertainty a lot of shock in Korea the time that would allow them to the favourite music was quite stodgy and it was you know belong to an older generation if you wanted to play rock and roll if you wanted to play the electric guitar and you need not focus too much on its imperial designs or because you believe the story of America so you could sit down and watch a movie of the story of America Syria Pakistan she is the author of five previous books of fiction nonfiction debut novel the shadow of the question was long listed for the baileys women's you've and whatever one thinks of American power and the Brute Force of American power when Obama was the face of that power it had veneer over that was sophisticated and glossy and cultural designs are innocent or that they don't come with certain agendas politics behind it of course they do but with any recent to those stories to me but when the face of that power is trump for Mike Pence or Richard Spencer will then it's then it's harder but also the way but of course the reality across much of the world is while a more conservative society a solidly Middle Class Society that's Korea so that the original spread of American soft power would you be coach popular show which away but we know too much about America I think that allows us to ask certain things that we are not ready to ask about Turkey or India let's say Tom has changed what sort of caused in general around the world the sort of pushback I think there's several factors I would say the drift and on ward those people are not represented in American pop culture they don't see their stories of their struggles brations in Hollywood films you know or American well in a body would always served as a mirror for India I think it's a pretty faithful mirror so it's reflected the politics and societal who in the nineteen sixties and nineteen fifties you had enormous numbers of troops of vases and from there you had American culture pushed out so the case of Korea is voted by not just corruption the knowledge of of a very powerful central state that can decide who gets justice who doesn't all I think generally we come to culture innocently where we sit down to watch a movie or read a book we're not suspicious of WHO's brought it to us and why we want to be entertained changes and movements of its time so if you look at the early Bollywood films of the nineteen forties and fifties they were filled with idealism they were about the birth of her not necessarily saying that reflected in the ball he has I mean I think that's to say that it's not that Indian or Turkish Korean the American basis that would have you there were troops that needed to be entertained so be on the less American military bases of the Lord our world in Bollywood these in Cabo Mac thank you for having me back we'll see how did on this one this is a narrative nonfiction look open new nationhood and a certain justice and brotherhood that was the beginning of course of independent India and by the nineteen seventies that dream is prize for fiction and memoir about life and as as a nation sons of broaden soap was published to acclaim most recent book the runaways which said certain traditional signs and symbolism that will not change no matter the decades so your hero today may drive a Ferrari because life is not built on happy endings the hero may die the were usually they don't have that tyranny of positivity that that Hollywood has upper class Indian with access not just to consumer plenty but also international plenty so maybe he lives in London maybe he summers Janie sation between a priest supplicant so then he comes from that it's it's born out of the court in the performances of the court and that remains in the films leave your country was to pollute your your spiritual standing you lost a certain part of your your identity by crossing the Blackwater Justice who is allowed to live in a highrise who sleeps on the footpath and the movies reflect on the nineties are of course neoliberal and I think this changes in a way the vastly different threats specifically talking about that idea of Bollywood's people also be familiar with the lar- ever going to attempt at say there is singing there is movement there is a lot more noise is not it's not a silent that's unser quite different of course than the singing and the dancing as you mentioned but I I don't think it comes from Kitsch I think it comes from cultural expressions so if the secret of the dancing but one of the ways is your average bollywood federal traditionally different from your average Hollywood national corporates Titan so that changes and it's it's reflected in the films it's very interesting because compared to Turkey Papa Ganda that quite ugly communal again too but how they are different is that there are stories essentially centered around the family they'll stories in which there was American culture also happened over the years with the change in Bollywood considered a minute but let's talk about body would obviously Indian cinema he's never a poor man he's never a homeless man which by the way was true in the seventy s you did have heroes who lived in villages they may wear bellboys and may have a girlfriend but when his mother walks in the room he touches her feet so those things remain but they are not stories that have happy endings necessarily Bollywood first of all our chains described about how people are not necessarily any longer save themselves reflective and that's quite unique I'm not sure you can do the same is true of Hollywood necessarily but NYDIA quickly and today of course Bollywood films are I mean to me on watchable digits they lived in the village and they respected the village and its traditions today the hero what is not a diet he's not a minority he's essentially an upper because the American media's image of somewhere like around us and thank you the Great Satan of American popular coach and there's the divide Turkish dizzy or as they call the TV shows will be set in Turkey they will not be set in Switzerland and London there's today in the same way the the people of India or sort of listen to the sirens capitalism from the countryside an area of exile and then as you said the silence of capitalism near Liberal demands now mean that actually crossing the blackwoods of examine you are India somebody here who has migrated Brown we'll see him with some suspicion yes it's changed to sleep because of course to to leave confidence and that confidence allows it to move quite freely between the space it occupies whereas India in terms of Bollywood now has that's basically as Bollywood films out there is no there's no sort of respect in the took who leaves his country the way Bollywood film has grown to have that and I always to produce because I think that actually if we look at the Turkish project the Korean project it's got an upward trajectory that's built on a sudden kind uh you see the same thing in Bollywood so what's changed hugely is that the hero of Louisville today is never a farmer but is bound by a traditional values you mentioned that the international and in the past box of the Anno Domini in writing this book today I wouldn't have included buddy when I started writing the book in Two Thousand Sixteen and so I did I think there are certain things you cannot say I think there are certain things that are now considered incorrect door anti-national or against the grain and I think the moment you do that to culture you lose it you talk about K. pop music one of the Dutch actor is how oh you math not long ago Latins today we're going to be talked about Fatima's ladies work of nonfiction which is the new kings of the world these parties also the change in the structure of the things the Bollywood film has has changed you mentioned as become propaganda with the rise of the right three and they have enormous enormous fan followings I went to Peru to talk about the this subculture of Peruvian Inca background and then the White Peruvians who come from that Spanish ancestry or Italian ancestry and I didn't meet a single body found who was white if traditional food from their villages their made they've made fun of the language used is always pejorative about indigenous people but Bollywood offer not only people who look like them physically but people who are modern and traditional people who existed in the modern world but wore native dress spoke native languages on the Forbes list I mean even the other hands on Forbes lists they consistently in the top five of those kind of lists if not the in Africa in Nigeria and Kenya Shahrukh Khan when I interviewed told me there is a small group of elderly German ladies who follow him every single place he goes they don't bother him they just watch him and love him and and the reasoning that they told or at least Germans have told and why well the way they explained it to me in Peru is that there's quite a big divide between the indigenous Peruvian who have broke that they feel their society so stiff-lipped or tightly wound that Bollywood allows them to express themselves in a way that they feel liberated Surin Estan Bull I said do you have a film outside he's would be we've got everything here and that idea has been absent in India for thirty years at least they were all indigenous and what they said to me is that they feel ashamed they feel put down they don't feel they can weather native dress on the streets of Lima they feel that if they eat the name all the time and he didn't think he did actually grow yeah exactly he's played a couple of Rogers to that's what he said half crossed over into into Western vote my day however Sean New Party is one of the vicious film stars in the world go back to the cons I think few places on earth that they would not be recognized weirdly Bollywood films very big in in between days and g you to buy into Shahrukh Khan and share my difference of any of these three certain population of the Global World let's say on the rest of that population is quite invisible and lives in subterranean kind of conditions that are quite harsh mainly indigenous Peruvians who don't speak English you come from the Highlands and migrate into the cities and they are door Shirakawa or someone on your home is aviation and then it's a caricature of globalization so we'd is international hub of sorts of travel business of commerce but at the same time it only caters followed native traditions that was very meaningful to them in a way that it wouldn't have bean to prove into Spanish ancestry retaliate ancestry let's say but until I met him at the pilots over Satchi which is not something you would imagine belongs in divide and he was there to shoot an Egyptian changes so quickly it's up to the second you're constantly updating yourself culture if I was reading the book in two thousand nine thousand nine hundred sixty I wouldn't have included with that that I've also played writers and I thought okay well I headed list I had sort of spreadsheet that I when I watched Sarah Films content every film he cried in every film I concert every film he had the same name in every film he dive every film he doesn't get the go he loves it and it's pretty consistent weirdly what was that interview line it's pretty much about the claims a child who may be limited the last day of Saturday the pump capable but bollywood one of the same name that's just the same character I it's very strange because it follows yeah I mean how much and Raj with great stars of the day played a lot of roles with the same names I asked Shirakawa he played the same character eh looking face as cracks recognized a couple of the web couldn't tell you any films they've been in they're not stars settles. I mean you told issue I wanNA talk to you about with one of the stars by the this week man with a big stars we'll have to wait countries by is to buy unusual place because it encompasses global and so it really was this hodgepodge of different people on in the same place and it was bizarre. It was bizarre to see how all these people connected in the connected thank show for a essentially saudi-owned television company and the crew of the shoot were Lebanese Tunisia in Moroccan and Jerry uh-huh arrests executions floggings and what happened at that time is that incredibly nuance television serials started humidity long on average they come with their original scores with as many as fifty characters in a show they'll set across histories there are many Ottoman Sultan epics and at the same time that will be epochs about women prison today in Turkey eighties when Pakistan was under its darkest Arab dictatorship under the backed General Zia ul Haq who brutalized society through my censorship air on state television they're they're not never ending the maybe ten episodes of twenty episodes written in very beautiful poetic were rose and they've been going for quite a while not a new project they've obviously existed in Turkey for a very long time but they broke out essentially through the Middle East on works of literature very respected works of literature adapted for the screen and today the talks a second only to the Americans in terms of very interesting case because Bison has a very rich history when it comes to television theater on the periods it's is at its brightest in the nineteen seventies and was about the gang rape of a young woman a young woman by several rich man so they're quite hefty this subject a lot of them are based on Oh by television distribution that surprised me actually I I didn't really know very much about it before writing the book Netflix search and they're absolutely is growing and growing Netflix even producing its own original disease the not just buying the shows that are making the yeah you acted by proper theater professionals and they tackled the issues of the day they tackled feudalism tackled that is a spread today they're the biggest century everywhere except the English speaking world let's just take a step back and I wanNA talk about the attempted suppression it happened one go and the early two thousands that few shows massive attention across the Middle East and from daily Roll Pervez Musharraf there was an opening up of private television channels and media outlets so television licences became quite cheap became not injustice and they did it in such a way that it was almost impossible to catch them insensitive of course they tried but they really flourished they cover quite serious issues such as honor abuse one of the most popular dizzy show called Fath- moghul essentially what is fuck moguls moral and ethical crises they are a blend of tradition and modernity in a way that is I think done with mobility than buddy that period and even traveled outside of Kasane very popular in India and have always been popularly do and beyond and under another dictator some decades later back just as it was picking up steam by some gets hit with Turkish dizzy and the reason part of the reason of these excess is that if you are let's say Lithuania the wildfire to the point that television channels stopping original programming throwing it off midair midseason and putting Turkish shows on you're listening to the Latins Aid Fatima Bhutto we took it a new work of nonfiction new kings of the world these patches were Bollywood it's cheaper for your station to buy existing took a show that to make Lithuania drama buying the rights so that happens in bags on again uh what is well they're essentially what we think of a soap operas except that there are two they are two hours and in flag there will always be patriotic slogans a man who also now more so now much more so now but always consistently anyone live episodes trying to figure out who's love is forbidden because everyone's love looks forbidden and the couple of the forbidden love boat still episode I don't know thirty and every would might be so they don't Donald Trains but you know there's a show called forbidden love giving anything away here to say that you spend at least because the maternity is not a mimicry of the west necessarily but it's a Turkish version of of that modernity in Bollywood you might hear a lot of English so foreign business it fractures it fracture something society and all these countries we know from watching near liberal reform four businessmen to to buy them people did and you need something to put on TV so the work of cereals again kicks off and you have a lot of original programming combat it drives a lot of what we're seeing today I said earlier I wouldn't have included India if I was reading the book today I would have included China instead because they're going to be the most ferocious they had some trains unfortunately thought they are they are bound by conservative values in the same way that same time and it's approximately at that time that these industries ramp up and go into a different gear Korea might be the more interesting version was put in place that it disenfranchises populations hugely again who benefits is a small lead all these countries go through this approximately surjit of our some in Pakistan to the point where the Turkish he started to pay yes I mean but but the talks really came through in a big way and partly they come through for the reason that these are shows again centered around the family the centered around flags no snow clearing but they're very nationalistic shows it just more nuanced I think but at the same time the the judge in Pakistan just before those coming there was also political changes in Turkey which enabled this to happen what happened well. What's what connects all three of these spaces act? I think they're going to be the most aggressive when it comes to push culture out and it's only beginning you mentioned that Turkish television producers diamonds look to the accident walks into a government office or school or and the speech end with a sort of patriotic kind of ending in the Tokyo shows right here what we call mingle ish or English smattering you will hear nothing but Tukish in Turkish shows they're very proud shows is to produce more has to sell more and it's not enough to just work within your own borders now you must conquer the world and I think it drives a lot of what we're seeing today with it it spray painted all over the place and I asked one of the art directors instead of you done this and he said no people just caught only themselves now and the day I was visiting into the pit and it's essentially adaptation of the Godfather but sets in an Istanbul ghetto and it's the story of a family I mean down to there's a brother like Fredo they all undergo neoliberal reforms at the same time on what those neoliberal reforms do is in opening up their markets to essentially American business ah because they really run the same with with Turkey Turkey opens up in a certain way it has now new demands new demands of the market double ballot and they renovated some of the interiors they pay the locals to act as extras and they film on the road obvious distillation of Western Paul yes it is it's it's capable is produced in a ruthless manner produced more like a multinational company how Pepsi's produced is how capable produced and what they do is quite ingenious they call it localization on what that means is that they will take music you are basically familiar with Western pop and dance and they will career is it will blow Kalis it and they do that firstly by by speeding it up which is what makes it these cable up and move on to Turkey that we'll talk about deasy yes that's where boating told many times and right the music the choreographers are foreigners again Americans or Europeans the music video directors will be deep fair the baggage that is pretty hard they fought back and and they have made some very popular television dramas and they'll net flicks too by the way now words what they mean and then the the songwriters of k pop bands are essentially all foreigners initially it was a lot of Swedes now it's a lot of American the producers of this show and they're just one of the two biggest the two huge production houses and token there produced by one of them they took over this neighborhood and see but your hero will never fire a gun he will not be violent I think that's quite fascinating industry especially in the ultraviolet world we live in today and what they did is they energy procedures you won't really have a chance to say no to most of them you'll be talk Rian if you don't speak Korean probably you might even be taught Japanese let's say daisy which obviously take it forms artistic forms from the West and turn them into their own cake up it's much more a singer no one will hear you for five years and five years you will take singing lessons dance lessons elocution lessons you may be asked to do certain plastics you just singing in Mandarin once you've gone through your five years of training you know have to pay back what the studio has invested in you and that might be anywhere from three hundred because Korean bands have sub units so that would be like having the Jackson five and then the Jackson Five Mandarin which would be a totally new set of people visit a two hour long so so they are still bound by a set of conservative values and the other thing that's quite interesting to me is a bollywood film there will always be an and wants to do very famously operates by Bible that they called CT which stands for cultural technology not allowed outside the officers no one can see it if the uh-huh Asian Switzerland bill and tend to work in studios to have done Donte and unhappy and second Korean unlike Japanese or Mandarin this as a Slavic language that's why it's easy for us to sing along even though we don't is that there was a a Chinese stringer from news agency reporting that were tourists with their inner selfie sticks taking pictures near the actor so you signed up to be a capable artist you would be moved immediately to Seoul on the new would be put through at least minimum of five years of training so you might be the world's greatest ars and it works actually it does worry if you look at the the most watched music videos on youtube something like six out of ten are capable deals a people neronha listening to Cape by interviewed a girl in Palestine sitting at home with bad internet connections listening to our favorite band you mentioned it's produced briefly describing to the the star of the idols there's the father like the corleones there's of course the son like Michael doing something accepts he's never got exactly that's one of the rules and I'm what was quite interesting that there's a there's a sign there's a sort of graffiti sign that represents these warring factions in the show and when you walk through this I please do subscribe rates Junes and even tell a friend thanks for listening own back nothing really from your album or your endorsements onto paid back the money you might percentage muttering twenty percent of that would be on offer different things in different reasons but all in a slightly hysterical way that I took it about new kings of the world dispatches from Bollywood and capable which avenue seven dollars to five hundred thousand dollars so when you're released as debut singer let's assume Cape Bad with cold little atoms you would then movements down to applauds they should wear and it's incredibly regimented there's not a lot of second chances you fairly failure out you don't get Turkey I would say are you interested in remaking and they would look at me black of why would we be make anything American but just making originals very happy with come back with another album and hope for forgiveness tour just to finish is often Priya's pretty much full circle you mentioned the Turkeys practitioners of this so stay with US nation by signed up to be a capable artist what happens club pulse thanks Communica thank you for having me this episode of little atoms produced and presented by me Nail Denny Ed work on its explains how to launch a band in different territories down to what I shatter they should use down to yes it wasn't actually someone who hadn't worked on that show but it was a screen writer and he was approached by a right wing American think tank the female centric dizzy about an American who comes and has great intentions on save the world and he wrote it but nobody would and that I heard that repeatedly by Sky Redmond and was first broadcast mezzanines one I four point four FM let Latins is supported by eight tonight up and hosted by cast if you enjoyed the never know what actually if I can recommend a show I would recommend that show it's called sugar which Turks just a little about okay pop before we finish more than cinema and stay American team can often the job of writing show that would show American soft power again sympathetically in fact Mongo ago it was raining and what are the juices of the show the rights was approached by a writer straight and the hands and you actually win visited sets of a remake of the Godfather River.