Climate Gentrification


This is a game of musical chairs and there will always be people who were wanting to move from one chair to the next. But you just don't want to be the person that that is standing when the music stops from the Harvard Graduate School of design this is future of the American the city conversations on how we live where we live on Charles Hunt. And we're here today with Jesse Keenan just as a social scientist. His work examines the relationship between climate change and the built Environment Jesse joins and just today to discuss his concept of climate gentrification. Welcome thank you for having me. You've been published in a variety of contexts. Both popular they're professional technical press over the past months around this concept of climate change. Mitigation can use begin for audience to unpack defined that term fourth sure climate gentrification as a theory which now have some empirical validity that explains the extent to which instability in economic terms leads to instability in social terms particularly as it relates to the affordability of housing in response to climate change impacts and so is clemency certification a term that that you've formulated. Yeah I a number of years ago. Almost six years ago I was doing work overseas and I recognize is there were some unintended consequences to some of the investments that we were making in the built environment and cities Under the name of resilience and fact we had created raided kind of Amenity we had created a level performance on that was actually increasing investment but operating indirectly with the unintended consequence of driving out many of the people that the policies were seeking to protect years later or some months later with hurricane. Sandy in New York. I recognize that there. There were certain geographies in Queens and in Brooklyn as well as in Staten Island or certain communities that had a relative advantage in terms of low exposure We're seeing increased rents In fact people were moving from one district to another Somewhat out of necessity because maybe their homes are. The neighborhood's were destroyed good but very often as a as a function of perception of thinking about hey in the long term this may actually represent a superior investment so there's several well different pathways by which climate gentrification may manifest the first pathways superior investment. This is people make an investment moving from one area of high risk geography to lowest geography of market. If you will and this can operate across multiple scales from district district region to region Displacement in in in south Florida may actually lead to climate gentrification in Atlanta or Charlotte for instance. Jesse would you say your concept of climate. GENTRIFICATION COMES OUT OF THE EMPIRICAL OBSERVATION OF SEA Level Rise and storm events yes I I would include other impacts associated or attributed more formerly to climate change including forest fires the availability of potable water LA soil stability any number of biophysical hazards and Physical exposure that as an impact on property so it isn't just limited to sea level rise and climate gentrification in that conception while I think we can agree. Three most rational actors can agree that the climate is changing anthropogenic climate. Change Sea level rise increased storm events will impact the way that we live in the American city widens recreation as a focus well classic model of Gentrification is really about the supply side of the equation it's it's about more or less opportunistic developers A real estate investment Actors that come in and see value in a particular area district or community and they take that risk and they develop and they create a market and that leads to degrees of social instability but also oh positive externalities a negative extra was good and bad that comes. gentrification climate distribution is different from the classic model in the sense that it's actually really represents a shift in demand and that actually takes the idea of gentrification and and moves it to a different scale altogether because now it isn't about a localize has neighborhood is actually about a broader shift in wide swaths of coastal regions or regions their more susceptible to forest fires in the Mike. And so we start to see. gentrification caught up in demography in climate migration as it starts to connect both demography and the economy at a much broader broader range of scales so the negative connotation the impacted your justification on various populations. You're suggesting is actually going to increase in scale scale and scope. There's no doubt and we're already seeing that both empirically and anecdotally so this suggests that in the context of sea level rise increase storm events events not only coastal cities affected but ultimately a whole variety of populations or affected. That's right and there's a number of cities across the states that actually see. See this displacement as a competitive advantage for attracting What will be a mobile or immobile depending on how you look at it and think about populations and economic base he's so what may be the plight of certain coastal areas in the southeast? United States may be an opportunity to attract new population for instance in the Mid West. It's a complex array. That's very much caught up in. The history of economic mobility in the United States and the implications are particularly for low to moderate income households and historically arkley marginalized communities as not. Everybody will have the capacity to be mobile to pay for the cost to adapt. I think one of the greatest challenges their implications of this work. Because how do we think about those who are trapped who may be trapped in the future on certainly there will be some communities that will have an upside to climate gentrification their houses will. We'll be worth a whole lot more now than they ever have been in the past but there will be many people particularly a renting tenure class. That will be significantly. Challenged to relocate kate and create new lives livelihoods places and communities your work is compelling to the extent that it touches on both The winners and losers. Let's save climate change if we could use those terms. Are Those terms fair in this context. No I think that's absolutely fair. And much of what we describe and evaluate is about trade offs offs and so in many ways the scholarly disciplined that we bring in multiple areas of social science and Applied Science and as well as design. Research is to understand both resilience and adaptation not as absolute goods but nethon logical and analytical domains from which we can understand trade-offs and so we have to understand that resilience at one scale to one set of people may be maladaptive to another and that it's the degree of self interest Degree to inequality of resourcing All of that plays into the trade offs that society has set for itself and making decisions. That's primarily what I'm concerned with decisions about investment in decisions about investment in the bill environment as well as how we design the built environment the history of American city In terms of economic change terms of environmental change suggests mobility is not always guaranteed to all populations and in fact your work points very directly to the vulnerability of fixity in space over time. How do we think about resilience or planning adaptation in the context of an economy economy? That is so unevenly distributed. I think we saw the extent to which our history of economic mobility which has been tremendous. This shrank through many generations across many economic cycles. greatly impaired in the foreclosure crisis in the last housing cycle. The extent to which people were trapped and the extent to which job growth and economic growth was actually happening in cities. In places people couldn't afford we started to give recognition to the idea. The economic mobility was a much more complex set of characteristics deterministic or not that were driven by mobility in terms of class lass in terms of education even access to transportation and healthcare all our social drivers of how we think about economic mobility climate. Change as we understand. It is in many ways a threshold issue in the sense that it very often as both not just the shocks of hurricanes and flooding flooding but the ongoing incremental stress that pushes us across thresholds of social issues that challenge abroad ray of social policies from affordable housing to health. Care that are all now challenged by that ongoing and additional stress of climate change in my own work on Detroit and Economic Restructuring Shrink we see the result of populations that didn't have access to that level of mobility and given that that mobility falls differentially along questions of race and class. This image this future for the American city that you're describing seems quite challenging. I also think it's an opportunity and I think climate gentrification points to an opportunity community at least in terms of land use planning because what it reflects is an opportunity to think about density and to think about sustainable urban density that avails itself of the Amenities of transportation of cross subsidized affordable housing. And the like it's an opportunity to think about. How do we create the value? And how do we redistribute that valued help stabilize not just low to moderate income populations but also addressing much broader spectrum of society. Economy me and I think in that we have a collective opportunity for collective action that rethinks the notion of density Rethinks wchs the notion of organization and rethinks what it means in terms of a broad scale of accessibility. Is it possible that the resilience planning tools and techniques. We have available today or sufficient that challenge. There's different degrees of maturity in adaptation. Planning which is inclusive of not just resilience planning but also Hazard Mitigation Planning Flood Plain management design events for civil engineering. It's it's a wide spectrum of activities but really time will tell The extent to which are resilience is adaptive or maladaptive in this is one of the elements that we have to give consideration to with resilience as it. They're six or seven major categorical variants of resilience but primarily. What we mean is engineering and disaster resilience which is about a reversion to the the status quo is about a reversion to the pre event stimulus and in that sense? It's fairly conservative yet. Were challenged all around us to to think about transformative adaptation the way we consume produce manage designed the built environment so we have this conflict between station heirachy and transformation. Listen so I think as we get more and more analytical clarity about the implications both intended and unintended with a variety of activities and both adaptation in resilience planning. We will start to understand the clarity of the trade offs and thereafter. It's really a function of the democratic processes of society of due process to give consideration to what we want to protect what we want to preserve and what it is that we wanna let go and it's that's the transformation in that will happen both as a function of demography demographics economics and more fundamentally due process as a matter of electoral politics and presumably mm ably the function of the marketplace. As well absolutely and we can't discount that And I think that that's part of our fundamental mythological. Ambitions ambitions is to understand the extent to which economy is shaping everything for material design and selection to space and location to life cycle analysis to a wide variety of technical but also social implications and bearings on how we design and build and manage the built environment so acknowledging as you have the resilience is in in some ways fundamentally conservative framework and that. It's only one element within adaptation. How might we think about enabling civil discourse or conversation about these choices? It strikes me in reading your work. That much of it is coming from. Literatures occurs in certain technical disciplines. You're publishing an in a range of fields and at the same moment as individual actors in digital communities individual homeowners are making choices. How does that populous become a literate on this range of subjects? I'd say one of the more powerful academies that has translated its work in to the public discourse is climate communications which has begun to understand these trade offs and conflicts and begin to translate them I to an heuristic terms which is simplified terms that people can understand and relate to now for many years. There's been a lot of research that has translated. Its way into behavioral economics comics into a public policy as it relates to risk and it's all about risk and risk assumption risk transfer so that world of risk is well understood stood but adaptation is only about managing risks. It's about managing the opportunities and I think the extent to which we can elucidate what those trade offs are over. The short term to the long term are critical for advancing public discourse. Because much of what we talk about now is about infrastructure. It's about material cheerio responses that have long term life cycles but really all that infrastructure does for the most part is by US time and by the time for more difficult decisions that we have to think about whether it's managed retreat or fundamental land use decisions or whether we're over consuming space in an unsustainable on sustainable way given the origins of the concept in your work looking at European examples and what you've seen in North America. Are you suggesting that there are perverse. Incentives built it's into large-scale infrastructure responses to adaptation. There's no doubt that disaster capitalism has driven the discourse of resilience in a uniquely American aircon phenomenon. They're certainly a severely organized. Industrial and organizational response if not political response that capitalizes this is on disasters. Part of that is a response that you can't pass judgment on. which is that? We haven't fully funded our infrastructure and the operation and maintenance and the Cap Paxson wchs and affects of infrastructure so we used disasters as a means to recapitalize and make new investments and infrastructure. But part of it is a deeply entrenched American American phenomenon of disaster and recovery. And there's no doubt whether it's tax provision or building codes or any number Moore of institutional mechanisms that drive the built environment and the production of the built environment we are deeply entrenched with the notion of the status quo. We do it the way we've always done it. I mean if you look at productivity in the construction industry it's it's by far the biggest laggard in the United States is very little innovation. That happens in the built environment comment and here. We are now confronted with the idea of transformative adaptation so we have a lot of incentives that are deeply institutionalize that were not fully fully pain For what we could or should be paying in in the production and consumption of housing particular on because it's been deeply subsidizing subsidize in probably the pinnacle example of this is the National Flood Insurance Program where the federal government absorbs a fair amount of risk That the the taxpayers absorbed that consumers don't absorb we have here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts the example of the underwriting of flood insurance on the Cape Secondary homes a whole series series of questions about the distribution of risk at the site level. Your work has focused recently on south Florida as you mention Miami Dade County. Why is Miami Dade County? So seminal in describing this new condition well. Miami is a city that was created by real estate for real estate. It was a marketing conviction. But the interesting thing about Miami is that it's reached a certain crescendo and level of maturity. Where the extra analyses of a lack of fundamental fundamental transportation planning a lack of fundamental Water and wastewater planning infrastructure has caught up with itself. It's reached a certain critical mass. Ask a certain intensity That is now leading into the vein of dysfunction. In in that moment I can. Now see the fissures there's in the exposure of these various dysfunctions and how they're reacting and market preferences and particularly consumer preferences and so in my mind and yes there's a narrative and there's a story line with sea level rise and actually rain inundation events actually represent much more immediate hazard but in my mind wind it's a combination of its own settlement patterns in history and maturity in combination with the confluence of climate change that opens ends up a lot and there's much to be explored there. Some would argue. It's perhaps to cloud. It is driven by rhetoric the deep deep inequality economic inequality inequality that real estate has impart produced in Miami on May actually cloud some of the more precise analytical Outcomes but what I think in many ways it represents The challenges that many Cenis have which is how do we protect the tax base. Where do we shift tax base? How do we think think about protecting a broad spectrum of our population And what's IT GONNA cost us. And how do we respond in a way that thinks about equity that thinks about out Fiscal Stewardship Were at that moment. Where Miami has the opportunity to get it right or get it wrong? We have ten fifteen twenty years. Get right or get it wrong. Your work as focused on the role of elevation in this context of climate change vacation. Why elevations important surrogate here? There's several different pathways. I mentioned in the first pathway. which is a superior investment? There's a second pathway of climate gentrification which is a type of inverse gentrification where essentially only the wealthy can afford the cost of increased insurance and the like and finally there's the resilience pathway by which resilience creates an amenity that drives in speculation Li if one of more more of these pathways was developing as a as a function of behavior consumption. In Miami. It would most likely be happening associated with elevation because in theory the higher elevation you are the less susceptible you are either as a function of observation of nuisance flooding or your perception that elevation allegation actually represents a superior investment does really combination of observation and perception so we tested two hypotheses. The first policies Aussies what was that there was a correlation or relationship between rate of appreciation. And how high a property was. We found very strong correlations nations throughout the entire sample but particularly strong and it was a big surprise to us along the coast because there's a fairly heterogeneous distribution of flood risk across the county. There's certainly a high areas of a Coral Ridge North and south of downtown that is fairly uniformly distributed in terms of risk because it can flood on the fringe of the county can flood in a great number of places But why was it that we were getting the strongest correlations on the coast and and our theory which has been validated by other economists. Since is that nuisance. Flooding was driving it in part but also perception was driving it so we now understand that the perception of what it's going to be worth in the future is likely the reason we found such high correlations on the coast I The other thing that we tested was called the Nueces I- prothesis was that we looked at properties and we broke them up into one meter cohorts and we hypothesize around the year. Two thousand plus or minus four or five years which is when the observational studies. Really kick in to suggest that a climate change and sea level rises was really actually beginning to have an impact in terms of observational studies. And sure enough a right around that time around two thousand the lowest elevation cohort completely dropped off in its rate of performance relative to the rest of the elevations which worked as a pack. Elevation was not that much of a strong effect until essentially sea level rise kicks in And that represents the first peer reviewed published evidence of climate change signal and a real estate market on the implications nations for property taxes the implications for the public bond market implications for wide variety of investment and public investment Stem from from these findings and in addition to this. Are you finding anecdotal evidence amongst the people that you speak with of individual actors making choices voices based on this. There's some evidence of an individual's I in terms of survey and interview evidence and data But there's no singular lurked large scale development that we can say this is about climate change. We really just don't see that evidence where we see. The strongest evidence is really an individuals who are buying up individual houses. They're buying up small properties and again. That's a reflection of a change in demand is not necessarily a reflection of big bad evil real estate developers. Now that that isn't to say that the people who are advancing these very large projects that are that are extensively feel like climate. gentrification aren't thinking about climate change as Impacting like this is a real value. Add now where you are on high vision. It is say they aren't giving consideration to that but we don't see any evidence that that's a primary consideration fedaration. Is it ironic in your view that the history of elevation and class that we see so many other American cities where the lower bottom land was associated with lower class and along certain race lines is is it. Is it ironic in your mind that that's inverted in Miami beach or it's not ironic ironic as much as it is deeply perverse as a convention of American history and it is important that we give consideration to the uneven impacts of that but we also have to represent and understand that there's other communities throughout South Florida that represent different modes of settlement and marginalization and opportunity. Climate change isn't just about the opportunity to correct historical wrongs which in many ways it can and should be about particularly as it relates to sustainable urban development but what we really need to understand is this impacts everybody rich and poor. There's an article in the Miami Herald this summer in North Miami where a woman was in a multi million dollar house and she was facing a couple hundred hundred thousand dollars in fines because her seawall corroded and now her street was flooding. The people who lived around her were ultra-wealthy. They had built defenses. They built all the bells and whistles necessary to keep seawater out of their yard out of the street that is climate. Gentrification that woman owns a multimillion dollar asset that she's elderly but she's GonNa have to move because she can't afford a couple hundred thousand dollars to be able to fix a problem which is more or less an infrastructural. Problem problem in the city wasn't going to do it for her. So there's a wide spectrum of impact and we have to think about yes marginalized communities but we also have to you think about middle income communities workforce housing. We have to think about a broad spectrum of actors who are going to be impacted by climate change. What I'm afraid of is we have have a singular focus on history as a guiding point for the future we will lose sight of the full range of opportunities and we will just fall into into predictable polemics about who benefits and who bears the burden when I think in reality we all bear both collective responsibility but but we all bear collective opportunity? This story the woman her seawall her neighbors this points out. I think one of the challenges that you do your work points do which has to do with individual actors making their own choices. We have a widely widely distributed environmental threat. Each landowner individually responding. Is that really the way forward Arthur opportunities for more collective action. I mean this is one of the challenges that you've seen in the humanities discourse in both the sort of cognitive perception and meaning and in in many people have argued in reality from a critical studies point of view resilience pushes the burden on the individual and it becomes a characteristic of into. Are you resilient or are you not right. It's it's a kind of binary election. Do you have the capacity for Zillions. And instead we should be thinking about collective adaptation and collective responses and in fact there's many examples sort of the perfect example of of elements of resilience that can be maladaptive a series of individual homeowners who put flood barriers that promote the resilience of their home home but when the flood comes it steers water to other properties. That would not have otherwise been flooded and that's collectively maladaptive because it's collectively flooding infrastructure and it may actually be maladaptive to the those individual property owners because it may be cutting off services. Electricity potable water to those properties individually so I think in the humanities discourse behind resilience in what it means as an individual state and an individualized capacity on I think in many ways challenges challenges us. In fact there's great work by Helen Asmundsson in Norway Looking at the extent to which resilience created kind of lethargic a kind of apathy among among those that were engaged and when they started utilizing the nomenclature and the framing of adaptation people started understand that this was a collective issue that it wasn't about the individual capacity but it was actually about collective action. And there's no individual property owner. Who can survive is an island in advance of anthropogenic agenda climate change? We've seen that. The combination of housing costs plus commute. Times makes Miami Metro area one of the most challenging environments armaments. Especially for the working class. How do you imagine the effects of climate change will accelerate those conditions of inequity or? Are you more optimistic. Dick than no I think certainly wasn't perfect. Example of this is One of the primary impact for seeing is greater convection events. In since that when it rains it really pours and those downpours are leading to surface flooding That is actually having a measurable impact in Traffic Circulation. Those trip times cost gas and the cost time. And when you think about the a Labor economy of Miami Many people have more than one job. There's a wide swath Roughly roughly. Let's see forty to fifty percent of Miami is by most conventions economically Stressed if you're losing an hour or two in traffic because of a rain event on that's hourly wages that you could be making so you know the implications or a economic productivity but also people's livelihoods On our our immediate in their measurable and they're happening today and so We really need to utilize that as a means to think about. How do we advance the Metro Rail? How do we think about more cohesive planning as it relates to a bus rapid transit? On how do we think about interoperability. I bind between transportation systems. How do we think about fundamentally where people live where people work where people go to school? And how do we give some resolution to that So that we can Not just optimize system but build robustness there in certain robust capacity to accommodate a wide range of events so from resilience robustness snus. I mean these questions seemed particularly apt given the percentage of the working class. And the working. Poor that you point to that are involved in the service and the tourism economies. I think for many They think of south Florida as among the most vulnerable and exposed geographies in the United States. That talk about the future of American city In in many estimations domations Miami Dade County is really really at the tipping point with respect to rain event sea level rise and these massive storms. Yes it is but we can substitute those impacts for many other cities. The availability of Potable Water and storm events in Los Angeles. Njoya are of equal import. An impact. So you know these are not unique. basically anywhere in the United States as we highlighted added more recently in the national climate assessment and the built environment chapter There's a wide spectrum. There's there's really no place in the United States that doesn't have some some immediate challenge to climate change. Miami just is the poster child in many ways but is by no means unique in many of these challenges in your your research. Have you found evidence of a slowing or a redirection of development To other areas away from south Florida anecdotally in my own experience. My my perception is that they can't build it fast enough. And maybe this is in part why you think of Miami. As the poster child for climate change it seems A kind of cultural dissonance dissonance. That on the one hand we clearly have evidence of a future of living with water and yet we can't seem to build them fast enough. Well we have to think about those vertical bank vaults right they're not really functionally Real estate in the sense that people live there and there they engender engender part of a community or and built environment they're they're more or less Assets and singularly so perhaps different way to frame it is. This is a game of musical chairs chairs and there will always be people who are wanting to move from one shared at the next. But you just don't want to be the person that is standing when the music basic stops. How should we reconcile cultural heritage community values of collective memory and individual experience on the one hand versus the enormous power of these forces that you're describing that might cause us to migrate? I think we need to become more familiar. With the language of Justice and Justice comes John who forms it comes in procedural justice and it comes an absolute moral justice and I think that we need to come to terms with the fact that we have processes of design and planning and public policy that will guide us to have due process that will give voice to the people who are voiceless. That will give voice to the public. Whether in electoral terms or participatory planning but it may lead to an inequitable outcome and when I say equitable I mean equitable. In terms of distributive justice that is the notion of distribution of resources equitably across society in terms of access and we may have a perfectly perfectly just outcome but it may ultimately be inequitable. And we have to come to resolution with that we can challenge that for what it is but we have to understand that there. There are two mechanisms of how we relate and analyse the notion of equity and justice in our role in that and our role that we play as educators caters as design leaders as Albuque- policy advisers. How do we help people understand again coming back to? What are the Trade Offs Your era social scientists? Do you imagine that designers planners those responsible for imagining the built environment have a particular ethical responsibility to advocate for more collective outcomes. Yeah I you know it is a it is an interesting thing because the question is is it a personal ethic or is it a professional ethic and and professional ethics are geared towards the preservation. The Self Service of the profession which is geared towards an agency of a client as to a product. Is there an adaptive capacity within this this building within this infrastructure to be able to adapt to a range of potential parameters is there passive survivability in these buildings so that we can have potable water water when the electricity goes out or the elderly can evacuate when there's lack of a service in the elevators. You know the question is are we really going to. To internal is the monopoly of the professions in service of the public. Good or are we going. To perpetuate an ethical convention that is geared towards agency of clientelism. And I think that the ethical standards at least to the A and what I teach In architecture are geared towards agency inclined to listen and but I think that the ethical rules are beginning to mature in. They're beginning to create a friction because there isn't necessarily Israeli conflict between environment and economy that we are starting to see that there are quite synergistic and that we are creating new values through stewardship of the environment that will actually advance the interest of our client whether they know it or wanted or not and to what extent does this suggest or imply a different education for the architect. I I think what. It implies. Not only for architects landscape architects planners and others is that we need a basic fundamental understanding of the applied science of climate change. We need to understand the physics. We need to understand. What radiant forcing is? We need to understand basic elements of fluid dynamics. We need that literacy across the realm. We need to understand what climate change is how it applies water first and second order impacts of climate. Change the bill apartment that should play into our total understanding and design and selection of buildings while your research is focused most recently on Miami. He did county You've looked also obviously New York New Jersey Po Sandy. You've suggested that these impacts will be felt across every American American city are there cities or their communities across states. That could imagine to have an advantage. Coming out of clemency cert. Yeah there are definitely cities that have some beneficial attributes and those attributes sir not just environmental. They're often function of governance. There's leadership there. There's people that think about climate change and think about renewable energy friends so a a perfect example of this is the extent to which certain local markets have been a law in with local governance to reinforce a renewable energy production and that is feeding into micro grids that is feeding into cheaper more reliable more resilient energy infrastructure. You see this primarily in the mid West right now and you see see what follows behind that data centre development tech jobs is is actually driving an economic base in many ways because it's cheaper more reliable liable energy the perfect example of where we are shifting based on a combination of climate mitigation reducing greenhouse gases and climate adaptation And and that's well On. That could not have happened without leadership and governance you touch on the importance of governance and the importance of leadership You of course have been active. You've advising government on advisory panels and boards at the federal level at the state At the municipal and county level. Can you say something about the SCHOLA- clarity of the scales of US governance. And at which scales do you find the efficacy of governance. The regional strength of regional regional bodies I think is increasingly being understood as a real politic. There's greater collective will mobilization of political. Will there's greater sophistication education and what the cell is and what the by is one of the strengths of the states. Right now is regional engagement. We have the southeast Florida regional climate. Change Compact we we now have one In Tampa Bay Tampa Bay actually doesn't get a lot of Recognition but they are actually equally if not more vulnerable than southeast Florida. Now there's a multi multi county compact there. I think it's ten counties and In Tampa Bay. That are modelled. On that we see multipple the bay area regional collaborative in San Francisco. Oh you see it in L. A. There are regional engagement that I think is critically important wise it critically important because they can start to address housing transportation listen Many of the other attributes Apollo policy and urban policy. They can start to see it as a system an interconnected system and they see the shortcomings in delimitations of of any given local government in isolation and they recognize that their capacity to work together as much greater than some of their individual capacities patties. Jesse thanks very much. Thank you for having me. You've been listening to future of the American city. curated by the Office for urbanization at the Harvard Graduate School of design. This conversation was supported by the knightfoundation. And Agendas diller stood the American city spot producers. Barbara Charlie Gilliardi Emerson Ladies Peralta Kevin Graham and Jeffrey Ladies Recording engineer to learn more visit ever. TAC DOT GST dot Harvard. That Aditi you.

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