Ep. 5: Ears Racing (Jennifer Stoever)
This. Is. Phantom power. So. He is racing. Race. We think of it as a visual phenomenon. But race as sound to. Hey guys, welcome back sisters. Everyone. When you heard those voices, did you give a race class, perhaps some kind of s Ignatius of character, and if so why do we do this? Where does this discriminating ear come from a MAC? And I'm Christiane phantom, power. We listened to race or to put it correctly, we examine how we are always listening to race. Our guide is Jennifer Lynn Stover, associate professor of English at the state university of New York. Binghamton stover's, the author of the sonic color line race. And the cultural politics of listening, a book that argues that white racism depends, just as much on the ear as it does the I she shows. How listening has been used slavery to distinguish separate black and white, and how African American artists, and critics like Richard. Right. Lead belly and Lena Horne have identified critiqued, and pushed, the boundaries of this sonnet color. Chris, when I spoke to Jennifer, she reminded me of a story that really shows how high the stakes of this kind of listening can be. I talk in the in the opening of the book about the case of Jordan Davis. It happened November twenty third forty seven year old Michael Dunn told investigators he felt threatened at a gas station part side by side with an SUV full of teenagers the alleged gunman complained they were playing their music too loud. Darden's fans were playing hip hop at the gas pump. They're driving. They had their music on. They were getting gas gas stations in theory. Transitory shared space, where we all come in with our music. We pump our gas, and we leave the tech say done confronted Davis, who was in the back seat and told him to turn the music down the white man at question felt a proprietary access to the soundscape both it if he decided it was too loud. It's too loud for everybody there, his sensibility should be catered to that there is a way that gas stations should sound and hip, hop is not part of that. And when they said. No. He saw that as, as aggression. Dunn's attorney says his client thought he saw a gun so we pulled his own weapon and started shooting shot into the car. Hiring. And killed a young young man. Investigators never found a gun and the teens car. In her book. Jennifer Stover has term for the way Michael, Dunn heard Jordan Davis at that gas station back in twenty twelve. The listening ear. They're listening ear helps us get what's really happening in a case like that, the listening ear is a term that used to think about the way that racial is listening practices come about the way that they create over time I was also trying to think about how whiteness in the US has become aligned with citizenship. What it means to be a full citizen with all of the rights and privileges thereof and have them be respected. And the this has become soldered to not just a white Visu -ality, but a white way of being in the world. And where does this white way of being come from? At times it's a form of distancing. It's a way of have drawing a line between what is music, and what is noise and putting say hip hop on the other side of that line. Admit to you that you're going to have to get people like geez. E R, Konya, west all of these gangsta rappers the nunc it off and then not just doing that. But then associated the sound of hip hop with a. Long history of stereotyping of black masculinity, as dangerous as outsized as listen to me, you gotta get with. All right. They idolize these guys with the hats on backwards and then the sound itself becomes a stand in for talking about black masculinity, and excluding black men from neighborhoods from equal treatment under the law, and the terrible rock, rap lyrics, and drug and all of that are moment is shifting now and I think we are having more overt. Racial threats but say three years ago conversations were being had through these, these sonic codes. And so part of what the book is to kind of expose when we talk about hip hop as being loud, and as as being culturally, when we hear these conversations about about hip hop. What are we really talking about these gangsta rappers? It's the athletes. It's the tattoo guys. So this, the, the listening ear is also very for, for white people. White men in particular very kind of proprietary. It's about the imposition of power. I think the thing that I appreciate the most about your book, is that it addresses this, this, racial dynamic, this, this kind of judging by listening that white people do something that I think any American really no matter what their politics are. They would at least admit that this does exist. Right. But when it gets discussed at all, which is, is pretty rarely. Generally gets reduced to this debate about Ebonics and so called standard speech. But what you seem to be arguing this book is that we use a prejudiced and even, you know, white supremacists form of listening that involves way, more than accent, or dialect, and that this actual type of listening is central to American racism itself. So maybe could you talk a little bit about your concept of the sonic color line. And what that does. Yes. Thank you. I think that's a really excellent interpretation of, of my work and yeah. I think that the why I chose that title drawing on do voices concept of the color line was the way in which this on, it choline brings together and helps us understand the linkages between the prejudice listening that happens in terms of speech in terms of musical production, musical, taste musical. Desires, and also the way in which we think about soundscape and space and really the sonnet color line, ultimately becomes a way to understand how we create spaces that are exclusionary America's free, and we have these legal legal protections in terms of space. But if race exp. Variances of race and racism are internalized through the senses. We all walk and experienced space in very, very different ways. Eleven women kicked off of a wine train Napa Valley after complaints. They were being too loud. But the women say we're not booted for being rowdy. They say they were kicked off for being black. We made it y'all look it as we ready to get on the wine trade, what started as joyful event for eleven African American book club members quickly grew sour even before they left the Napa wine train station, and she said, to us, I'm gonna need you to lower your your, the noise level needs to come down a little bit because you're being offensive to some of the other passengers. So forty five minutes into the trip they were told they had to leave when would be scored an off the train. And when that happened a further indignity, we had to walk all the way through all the additional five cars to be able to get off the train, so they took us, and they paraded us through every single car with all the passengers watching us, it was humiliating degrading, and that's the part that I will never, ever ever forget. It can say that. It's open, and that it's, it's diverse in its excessive oil, but because of the way that experiences of sound are can be. Fractured can be very different. These spaces can can be very actively exclusionary toward people of color in ways that can be hidden or covered over. And, and so I kind of started they're like, where trying to understand where we're at in the contemporary, moment and needing to go back, historically, to to document and trace that. And so we tend to think about sound is something that just is in something. Yes, sounds a certain way. But what you really emphasizing here is that we, we all listen through these ideological filters. Right. So as a as a tar player, you know, I think about this, sometimes in terms of like affects pedals, right? So we list we listened through these different. We listened through these different distortions and delays. And we don't really realize that we have these things in our signal chain. Right. We think we're listening to clean natural signal, but there's no such thing as that. And so, I think a couple of questions for come to mind, like, I what, what do you want white people to do with that knowledge? I guess we could just start there. Like what kind of intervention would you like to see your yearbook make with, with white folks? Has a really important question. I mean I as you put it right. Just this calling attention to the fact that listening is not a natural process for folks at work, and sound cities. It seems very basic right in some ways that's the foundation of of our field. I'm going to I'm going to paraphrase Hari through. We just finished teaching the book, white tears with my class. And, you know, there's a point where he says, whether or not you believe in raise race fines, you and I think this is part of it, right? That the book is, is written to counter color, blindness, and the ideology of color, blindness, that, if you don't see race quote unquote. You know that it doesn't exist that, that there's a certain elements of white people often very liberal white people that don't no longer believe in race. And yeah, racist been definitely. It's been proved as a. A scientific fiction for over one hundred years now, but the materiality of racialism nation is everywhere, around us. And so getting white people to not imagine themselves at the center of the human experience that the way that they here is not the way everybody. Here's and that the way that they here is impacted by raise is impacted by this deal of what whiteness is, and how to inhabit whiteness, one of the ways, I think that sound at least in terms of producing white racial identity works more powerfully than vision is because it allows a feeling of whiteness, that, that it makes whiteness and race real four white people rather than abstraction, the way we talk about Visu -ality, and races often that whiteness, is invisible that it's a racist marked onto. Two other bodies, but with sound and hearing in white ways, and sounding in white ways, it actually makes it this very material experience because it's been so associated with Americanise. The era is the human organ public speaker is most likely to try to impress as he makes the speech and naturalized this way. The, the white way of hearing has in America for many decades. And if not, you know, a century and a half or more, the, the way to be a human people can be interested in new ideas when those ideas are expressed in well selected words, did you ever consider how many jobs depend on your ability to express yourself to a group of people? Whether it's the former project. On a judge on the bench. Or a salesman. It important to be a good speaker. And when you speak, well, you get along better with people. Whether it's persuading them to come along and have fun at a wiener roast. Or trying to be a better citizen at school or in the community. And so challenging that and getting an opening of multiple perspectives, and multiple interpretations of the same sound is is really important. Even like so the idea of quiet neighborhood as the goal. The suburbs. There's a way that that race in class meet in that and that Brown nece blackness is associated with noise and sound. And the way that neighborhood soundscape are policed. The way that noise complaints are called on neighbors that often start a whole chain of potentially dangerous legal legal implications and problems. These, these conversations need to be opened up, not imposed based on a white middle class, sensibility, and so really kinda shaking up and realizing the, the partiality of white listening for white listeners is it sounds simple. But it's actually quite difficult to do a work on that in my teaching all the time. As a literary scholar, one of stove as techniques to engage with African American literature as a storehouse of historical sound, one example, being a close reading of Richard Wright. Oh, three of uncle Tom's children. Black boy, a native son. I've come to think of certain kinds of music in particular, as being sonic, traces of listening experiences, and deejays and, and as communicators of ways of listening. So I realized when I dropped into to Richard Wright's native son, I was receiving similar transmission of listening practices. An alum clock playing in the dock and silent room bed. Spring creek a woman's voice hang out in patiently. The first three lines of native some. Oh, establishing the scene through sound bigger. Thomas moving through the streets of nineteen forties. Late nineteen thirties early nineteen forties segregated Chicago. We were as readers invited to listen as hard as we can to how bigger heard the city and realizing that many of his cues and many of the most important metaphors and, and imagery in the book comes through sound that bigger can walk across the street from his extremely noisy apartment complex in the tenement. I should say kitchen really in the in the in bronze Ville and south side. And then move across the street to the Dalton mansion in the in the very wealthy, white neighborhood of their in Hyde Park, and everything becomes quiet. And this seems very natural. We've come to naturalize that inner city neighborhoods are noisy that wealthy. Neighborhoods are quiet, but what right does is to show us, right? That it's the overcrowding of the neighborhood that makes it noisy. It's the lack of protection or controls on industry and conditions of segregation create that metallic noisy nece, something that Laura Pollino, calls environmental racism, that's where the factories get put. That's where the, the incinerators are. That's where the and then when he moves across the street that this quietness is not a natural state of affairs, but it's extremely constructed. And that buffer is set up so that the residents do not encounter, or have to think about the black neighborhood down the street, but they in fact own the building that bigger lives in, and that in that invites us. Think about that. These two spaces are connected that the sonnet choline appears as a division, but it's really this, this link that we need to pick up in here between these spaces. Hey, everyone. It's mac. Hey, good here at phantom power. We are so fortunate to have generous funding from the Miami university humanity center, and the National Endowment for the humanities, and among other things this means that we don't have to implore you to buy a new mattress or join us sock of the month club. If you're a regular podcast listener, you know what I'm talking about. So luckily, we don't have to do that. We do. However, have one small ask just go to tune 's and leave us a review and a rating. We'd really appreciate it. It's a great way for the people who are funding this show to know that folks really are listening to it. And it's also a great way for more people to learn about phantom power. Thank you. Going back now to max 'compensation with Jennifer stove. All three of the sonic color line out on NYU press. And as Jennifer mentioned earlier book, attempts, not only to explain racialist listening in America, but also to trace its history, and she does so by assembling a historical archive of texts slave narratives of Frederick Douglass, Harriet Jacobs, newspaper reviews of black and white opera singers in the nineteenth century, the writing of W, E B, do boys and Richard Wright musical, recordings radio, dramas, featuring the jubilee singers lead belly, Ledbetter, and Lena hone and buying Zaman these as texts stove shows how the sonic colline evolved, and how African Americans documented th-they. Theorized and resisted America's dominant, cultural, politics of listening. There are these different moments that you point out where it becomes really important to listen for race to, to people who are invested in racial divisions because the paradigm of the Visu -ality of race actually gets undermined. So the first of these occasions in the book is has to do with just the mere fact that so many white slave owners were raping the African American women on their plantations and you know, having mixed race children. And then we get into the, the one drop conception of, of blackness and all of this, where it becomes difficult for people to discern by the I what race someone is right. Yes. And the end the fugitive slave law, I think was also part of that, too, when the nation in eighteen fifties. At the same time was then know the entire nation was turned into essentially slave territory in part by that act, it also caused a discernment of can you detective someone slave or free by listening? And so those two things I think working together began to create this language of what blackness sounds like. Senate majority leader, Harry Reid was telling people privately that Barack Obama's campaign would be helped because he was quote, a light skinned African American with no negro dialect in less. He wanted to have one should he resign. I don't think so. The president has accepted the apology, and it would seem to me that the matter should be closed, and that blackness and race and sound then associate. And then also at the same time, then what does what does whiteness sound like so, so yeah, is son of color line, at this point, it's doing more than just defining judging what it means to sound black also. It's this subliminal process by which whites are figuring out what it means to sound white. Yes. Without without even consciously thinking about it. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And this happens a lot in, in music and said, he's of music that when we talk about recent sound, it's about blackness. It's about brownies. It's about the other as having a racial, I sound, the sauna color line is doing other kinds of work, right? So now it's not simply a way of sort of disciplining and identifying black bodies and black voices. It also becomes this, this way of essential ising them. Right, like this, this way of making them exotic of sexual Leising them of making them profitable to white people. So I'm thinking here about. The great musician. Huey Ledbetter better known as lead belly. And his relationship with the folklorist and record producer John Lomax. Can you talk a little bit about their relationship? Those two men. Well actually wanna start with with lead belly and he actually hated that nickname. And that's why in the book, I most often talk about Ledbetter and use us his his name because that nickname was given to him in prison and Lomax insisted on it because he saw. Him being his imprisonment as a kind of racial authencity, John Lomax was folk collector and grew up in Texas, and he would travel he worked for the library of congress and various other organizations, and saw himself as the great preserver of black folk culture. And Lomax quite disturbingly prison as a, as a as a way of preserving full culture that he would often travel to prisons, because the convict system, which really is an extension of enslavement, and new form of enslavement where black men would be picked up for petty crimes, quote unquote, vagrancy. It's cetera et cetera. And then imprisoned for inordinate amounts of time and then used as on a chain gang as labor. And so he would see them as they were segregated and cut off from the radio and all of these modern technologies that he felt were ruining the culture. You know he didn't like blues and jazz that, that were being played on the radio or mass produced through records. I'm actually saw these kinds of musical exchanges as corrupting this kind of purity. But then what does it mean to, to Seoul, little concern for the men that were producing these just saw them as producers of music, not as not, as not as human beings? You know he didn't do anything to try to dismantle the convict lease system. And so when he says he met lead belly there and quote unquote discovered him as a great talent. And he would often force lead belly to perform in prison gear that actually in my research, I found hadn't been used in the state of Alabama for a decade because the, the even the government at the time found it to be dehumanizing. So, you know, so Lomax felt that he was and this is where the essential ising comes in. And this is part of the naturalizing of criminality with blackness was constructing racial image. He felt he was reflecting it and representing it, but it was a very dangerous thing to do. This is the early days of something that persists to this day, which is white men, sort of assessing and determining what authentic black musical culture, is, yes, I'm feeling kind of possessiveness and ownership over this offensive image. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I hear it today of lamenting that African American people at turn their back on the music of John Coltrane, or whatever in favor of hip hop. I mean this is still something you hear all the time. Yes. And I mean even then in hip hop. What is the real hip hop? And real hip. Is it uses samples? Lead. Belly was an incredible musician an incredible. You know, he had as it's been reported over five hundred songs committed to memory. He really viewed himself in the tradition in the south of what's called a song Stor that he would travel from place to place that he would be very attentive to his audience, and play songs that, that would that they would relate to that. And he would switch this depending on where he was. And, you know, he very much wanted to be a pop star in the vein at the time of gene, Autry and had his own goals, and desires and really wanted to cross musical boundaries, but was bound through a contract with Lomax until until nineteen thirty nine and this contract actually prefigures, what are called three sixty deals now in the music industry, where Lomax had control over where he played lead belly couldn't book shows without low maxes permission. In addition to the fact that Lomax made the lines, share of the profits that this idea that he controlled lead belly's entire image and entire that, that doing anything that low maxima deem in authentic was was him really again. Exerting this kind of back to the listening ear. This proprietary ownership over lead belly, the person not just lead. Billy, the music. The music becomes a way to express this desire need for control and containment of, of black music and through this kind of fetish ising. And that I think, is what really shifts from the nineteenth century into the twentieth century. Is that consumption of blackness for the white listening ear becomes about a certain kinds of pleasure, that in the nineteenth century was a different experience at there was almost immediate dismissal of, of black music as noise where in the twentieth century, if it's noise for many people, it is this, it has profitable currency because of because of the sonnet choline, and because of the pleasure for white listeners of transgressing without losing their position in, in the racial hierarchies in the of the US. Ledbetter goes on to be covered by pretty much. I mean it's a standing how influential his music was Frank. Sinatra Led Zeppelin did a version of his song, Gallup poll. And if you listen to lead belly's original. Kind of blows Jimmy page away, and he's doing it on a twelve string guitar, which is seems so difficult. Yes. He got into. And there's been a lot of discussion in England about the, the skiffle revival and that was part of the circulation of lead belly lead Billy's music to England. George Harrison cites him as also plays a twelve string play the twelve string sometimes as, as an influence in that regard as well. And none of which monetarily are enough. I'm lead belly has very poor health died young. He was very much on the economic edged his whole his whole life. And so he never really saw any kind of I mean, props are amazing. You cannot eat profs though interesting because glow mix was attracted to lead belly because he heard something from the past, right? Or at least he thought did but lead belly's influence shows that he was playing something from the future. Right. Like even into the grunge era, like. Ervan covered where did you sleep last night? And if you just listen to the guitar part on that song it just sounds so modern. Good. On gone. Cool wind. You call a week and you need a moon you. You. That it completely makes sense that a band, like nirvana would use it. And cobaine said that lead belly was very influential on, on the band and, and, you know, and I'm I'm of the same generation as Cockbain, and I remember being in high school and sort of obsessively listening to lead belly and Robert Johnson records in high school. And, and hearing something that, you know, felt really true to me or in vital painful. Authentic. Right. And, and this is where I get some confusion because is this a way that white men have found empathy and resonance with flak experiences? Or is it actually a Rian stance? She ation of the sonnet color line away of marking what is supposed to be an authentic. Black sound. I'm just asking for a friend here. Yeah. And I, I mean, there's, there's some question about, you know, back to part of the sonnet, clear line is about the commercializing of, and the, the, the capitalizing of, of black pain. What happens when you turn black pain into into a commodity, and, and that it's it and I think that's, that's, that's really central to this authenticity is a form of arrest and a form of limitation of, of forcing kind of boundary, and, you know, but it's also way of bracketing, right? If you can bracket that power is from the past. Then it raises the the the contemporary connections. And it's, it's, it's a challenging question like a say in the book, and I actually dedicate at the beginning, I to the book to fish bone who is a fishmeal. Oh, I love them to in like they, I mean, they were as I say, they're like my first and. Donkey is critical race. Theorists. A good deed. But the white. Chase y'all tonight. Tonight. Why? People that, that through fishbone and the way that, that listening to fishbone opens up my ear to not just many different kinds of music, but the potential and the for fusion and connection between them. And that's the very reason why the music industry failed fishbone in the sense. It was never consistently Scott or phone or heavy metal or you know, the band really found these points of intersection. And merging, the sounds that we can't label you and therefore we can't sell you. So so music has that, that potential and it because it has that potential to open up listeners ears. This, why this on it klew lanes there. It's to contain that power that that music has. I want to skip forward to this second moment when the listening ear and this sort of listening for race becomes very important. So, so there was the earlier stage during slavery and trying to discern if you couldn't discern visually what race someone was trying to listen for race. But then we get into this new era, where we get the scientific knowledge that race really isn't biological. And yet this sort of ironically actually seems to recharge the sonnet color line. So you've mentioned color, blindness earlier in our discussion, but can you kind of talk a little bit more about what color blindness is when it when it began and how it kinda amped up the listening ear color, blindness is the, the belief and it's the reigning yet. Sioe Mian wine at the, the reigning racial, formation of the US in the late twentieth century, and up through our contemporary moment, is the, the idea that race can be fundamentally ignored comic grazing. But I just don't see race and that met at the metaphor for color. Blindness, right? Is then we, if we can not see skin color as a factor, then it follows that a race free society or a society free from racism wool merge, the least racist person here. Okay possible. And that as a matter of fact that creates an Abel's a new layer of racism to emerge, and in fact, a more dangerous one because then you, you can no longer talk overtly about race. You're only telling yourself that, so you don't have to think about racism or confront your own prejudices. The only way that the colorblind is could take root as an ideology, is that that race has to transfer and move somewhere else. And that if sound allows racism to do that. If we can't, you know, racial profiling is only thought of as visual entity what does it mean to stop a car because of the kind of music that's playing or what does it mean to to use to use accents to determine citizenship? This notion of color, blindness. It's an extensively liberal move, right? But, but it really turns blackness into a choice that's the wrong choice, right? And yes. And something to listened for it becomes well. Are you going to join the great middle class standard way of being or aren't you? And if and if you choose not to there's something something wrong with you. Yes World War Two and the Cold War was an essential part of this realignment of kind of body and, and voice, that, that what we think of color, blindness as a nineties thing or even a seventies thing that color blindness was part of the, the effort by the, the American government to recruit people of color to the, the armed forces that there is a kind of inclusion that. That's offered through color blindness that if we phrase his no longer factor than everyone could be American. But at the same time, skin color, no longer bars. You in visual appearance, no longer bars you from being American. But, you know, maybe everyone can sound quote unquote American, and then it becomes about this kinds of disciplining of the voice disciplining of listening to, to here. And have those kinds of middle class since abilities. And, and yeah. This idea of kind of standardization through voice speech music, musical taste. Starts starts then starts in that Cold War moment. Oh, says you wanna talk so very badly. I guess I'm not gonna have much trouble getting talking to this machine. I was going to be the first try to out. About morality. Matama morale around now tomatoes, suppose you step up in you? Gainst morale is because he don't talk good English. And has nothing to do with one of the things that I think, is so interesting about your writing on this is that you connect this to technology of the radio. And so this is another one of those things where just like listening. You know, we generally think that technology is neutral, but you really think a lot about the way that radio fed into color blindness, and this standardization of speech air, they're few representations visually literary Lee in the radio research on black listenership and, and then thinking about, well, wait a minute. There's this overlying you know, very, very entrenched discourse on the thirties and forties. As the golden age, quote unquote, golden age of American radio from a humble, beginning in Pittsburgh garage to the sumptuous studios of the national radio networks. In New York, Chicago, and Hollywood. These are the years, we refer to as the golden age of radio. It's important to understand how and why that came about, and how and why it's also seems to perfectly align with the worst and most segregated both legally ended in defacto in, in US history. And so, how can we then refer to think about this as a golden age, given this, this level of, of exclusion, the make America great again, campaign, I think is very much tied to these nostalgic images of white radio listening in the in the forties. And fifties. How were black artists, actively excluded from, from the radio and not just actively sloughed, but their their their performance and their, their representation tightly controlled. And the fact that the belief in technology as neutral, as just something that is, and thinking about radio itself, as you know, there's a huge discourse about radio as blind and connecting that to color blindness that you can't see race over the radio and that it's this open equitable space and a lot of the Cold War. Propaganda was saying exactly that like thank God. Our airwaves are free and open. They're not like Germany, but also really ignores the way in which racial hierarchy was driving the industry. And the way that the industry was thoroughly segregated down to separate musicians unions for black and white musicians. Black musicians did not get nearly as much work as white musician. Many many people when I give presentations or teach are surprised to find out, how black actors the dialect was scripted for them and the black actors many black actors were quote unquote tot to this, this way of speaking by white producers, and that there again, I think that price of admission of being, you know, getting working roles on the radio with having to having to speak in dialect, and this very dialect that no one speaks, having to speak, this white imagine language of what black sounds like. Leeann. Miss this modern, I'll be able to take it easy. Take it easy. Don't get so excited. I-love-you relax. I go out again. That's ridiculous. Well, she's got to learn the controller Phil. Good for you. Cool off now. Seek what you said. What I mean I had when you hear what happened. Again, normalizing and naturalizing it for a huge swath of, of American listeners, so microphones weren't weren't colorblind, as so many of the, the radio industry executives seem to feel, but the belief that they were is really telling and it's shaped a lot of how we've come to understand race through sound that way, will infect the invisibility of the performer charges. The racial is listening, right? You're listen more closely for race because you don't know you can't see what race the person is. That's exactly it. And one of the great fears of radio producers was that black performers would be indistinguishable from white performers. And that's why wonderful Smith was fired from the red Skelton show that his voice because he had to slip. It was a sketch show, and he was slipping in and out and changing character so often, and that this racial boundary, this all RO racial boundary was not could not be reliably maintained. And he was also himself asserting his agency and constantly, challenging it. This was shows color blindness to be ally. Right. Because fan. Here is that if you will just, you know, pay the price of admission and speak correctly and behave in a in a Bush, y middle-class way, then then we will ignore your race and, and all will be good. And then you, you get performers who actually do this, and then that becomes so threatening to white identity that they have to be fired. Yeah. And I mean, in fact, the dialect from the very beginning Gavin Jones is a scholar, that has been been working on this for, for many years, and white southerners, and blacks otherness sounded alike, almost indistinguishable, and that's exactly where the dialect comes into separate the sense of white and black to draw those boundaries, and to enforce into to create the sense of a difference. Oh, no. There's no sun up in the sky stone. Lena Horne, she's middle-class New York Brooklyn. And she was one of those artists that challenge the sonnet clear line and really challenging this enforcement of what blackness sounded like. Israel. Stall. Get mop whole self to give. I'm wary. The. Lena Horne's voice posed a dilemma in that her voice fit neither of the kind of stereotypically white, nor stereotypically black me only me. I'll let me be lonely. You won't what I love you only. Then happy with some buddy. This voice that. Challenge both of those both of those in positions it had a kind of racial fluidity Lena Horne had a kind of many people describes it as kind of coldness to her voice. That she was was a fen and was. But yet, even with this, the white press tried to racial is Lena, as a blues singer, and she was definitely not a blues singer. And by you know any any stretch. And so, what does it mean again that this listening ear then has to to label her, according to this, this racial is racial, is music, genre, and black? This nurse heard Lena Horne as a beautiful singer. And what is it mean then to kind of think about and discuss the beauty of her voice in relation to her body? And so this is a very different discourse about about Lena Horne's voice in the white press, and the black press. No one that some one is. Tend to be loop. Once you don't. Above have it to. They key back tomorrow comes by love. Joe? Mine. No. The sonnet clear line is not about accuracy. It's about an accurate description of diverse racial identities. It's actually about the reduction of race to the idea that there can be this firm boundary between blackness and whiteness, and then other racial identities than have to contend with these polls. the racial makeup and dynamics of the country are a lot more complex than this. And yet, this is where we always seem to come back. Yes. That's exactly what I mean. This isn't to say that this is the only sonnet clear line or that the that race and sound does not impact Asian Americans and indigenous peoples. And as a matter of fact, in, in this can be a point of solidarity in terms of organizing against racism, and an inequity. But yet, like you said, you know, here we are again, and how we jam the signal of this black white binary and the inequity. It's wreaked on all of us. That's it for this episode of phantom, power. Thanks again. To Jennifer Lynn Stover. You can learn more about phantom power, and find transcripts links to some of the things we've heard talked about the phantom pot dot ball. Also subscribe to our show there wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it. If you rate and review us on apple podcasts, I'll tell us what you thought about the show on Facebook. Give us a shout on Twitter's phantom pod, today's show featured music by Graeme Gibson blue the fifth, our interns, are nothing Cooper, Nicole cashew, an atom Whitman special. Thanks, and Bombay is Nicole, who's graduating, thanks, great work from a new website phantom, power made possible through a generous grant from the Miami university humanities center and the National Endowment. Humanities?