#15: Hacking Crackdowns, Houseparty Smackdowns, Hamburger Showdowns


Discover Milan Italy with WSJ magazine and into Garay. Join WSJ magazine editors for behind the scenes access in Milan. As you meet the city's most influential tastes makers dine at top restaurants. Visit the private villas of late coamo and much more book. This once in a lifetime trip at Indy. Gory dot com slash WSJ magazine or call six four six seven eight zero eight three eight three. Wall Street Journal. This is instant message. I'm David Pierce. This week on the show. We're going to talk about social media app. That's doing basically the exact opposite of Facebook real-time face to face actual human conversation. Now, all it has to do is prove you can make money doing that which is harder than it. Sounds later on you're going to get to listen to me eating a non beef burger watch outing with impossible food. Ceo, Pat Brown about absolutely demolishing cows a science competition, and Christopher mims has a ridiculous looking genuinely useful gadget, you're gonna wanna have around. But I one of us got hacked over the last couple of weeks over and over and over again all in the name of journalism, frankly, I'm worried about her. So here's me now as always join us turn in New York, unless she got hacked out of this and Christopher mims somewhere has always wear. Are you Christopher today? I'm coming to you from inside the building I can look at your face rate. Did you see this addict? So he would feel comfortable there. This is such a drab. We're actually feels exactly like in men's car again, just like last. Yeah. There's a plant and three two other microphones there's three microphones in this room. It's perfect. But I'm all alone. I also listened to the podcast last week. And I think it's better without me. So maybe that's why I'm here. All I won't even disagree. So we let's just jump in here. So Joanna you just decided a while ago in the name of a column you were going to get yourself hacked, just two pieces of. Yeah. Honed the technical owned. How do you spell it? Did I get dot com slash Joanna. Just as yes sword. Basically. My best advice is just everyone goaded to did you get and that's the end of end of it. So, you know, it's a really weird how I got to doing this story really just started with someone gave me a free web Cam cover, and I've been seen webcam covers everywhere. And I'm like do I need this like do we need this? And I I want to write a piece about webcam covers, and we'll send our editor was like that's not really a piece, and I was like yes, it is. This is what's going on? There's PC manufacturers that are building in Kim. Switches for webcams like everyone's super worried about webcams. So it was like all right. I'm gonna start doing this story. And then when I started talking to security experts. It's like, yeah. It's super easy to get into a webcam. And I was like is it, and so I went through the process of working with a security expert. His name is Alex Zander hide and he works at security scorecard, which is a corporate security firm. And he was like, yeah. I'll try to get into your webcams. Yeah. No problem. A couple of weeks later like wasn't as easy as just no problem. And you know, there's a lot of things kind of along the way would have blocked him from getting into the webcam. So I was a very willing participant in the hacks, and I sort of disabled security settings along the way, I I did lots of stupid things that I don't think many people would do. But I think some of the things I had to let him into my systems. People would do right. Like, sometimes you disable a security setting in MAC because you want to download an app or sometimes you override a security setting in Microsoft Office because you want to open a document sometimes you click a link because you think it's going to be a great link and. So yeah, you know, alternately, I'm putting a webcam cover on my webcam still. So you and Mark Zuckerberg? Yeah. You know, by the way, I should say like that was one of the things like everyone's Mark Zuckerberg has when we should all have it. Facebook would not comment on if that's Mark zuckerberg's webcam cover coarsely. So okay. But I want to know more about what you had to do in order to let this stuff because if you like the thing that we've learned over and over about hacking is that so much of it depends on you doing dumb things. Yeah. The humans, always totally. But the but the bar for dumb things is really low like I've done things that I'm sure have made me more vulnerable, and there's and there's all these reasons for so let me talk I did three devices one was technically not a hack. It was just, you know, poor password hygiene, but we did three devices one was my windows, laptop or windows laptop. I bought I bought new laptops for all of these things because I didn't want my info to be on the systems or my personal info to be on the systems and Dow Jones did not want me to hack into their computers make sense. So we use a windows ten HP laptop. We used a MAC book air two thousand fifteen macbook air all running the latest operating system. And I bought an IP webcam off of Amazon. I think let's let's go through the windows system hack because that is the most common cause windows is used by millions and billions of jillions of people. So it's a very likely target for a hacker. Would I had to do? There was I and so he did sort of a spear phishing, social, engineering ruse and it actually worked out really. Well, he crafted this great story. I'm going to apply for this job that you're actually hiring for hiring for video producer right now. If anyone is interested in being a video producer for me, please ply. But if you're hacker, please don't apply he sent me a link tour he sent me an attachment with a resume document, and he sent me a link to a video real in one Email for him to carry out the hack I to do a couple of things again playing along. I had to open that document. No big deal. It was an encrypted document. So Gina didn't necessarily scan. It. I did get warnings along the way about that opened this encrypted encrypted document. And then I had to in this case, which I think would have been a real which. Wouldn't have allowed the hack to carry out. I had to also click on the video real. So that's two steps on the user part that would have made things pretty tough on top of that antivirus stopped the hack there. It was basically like this looks like a malicious file we're not letting you download it. So I did disable antivirus, which, you know, some people don't run antivirus on windows. That's a really dumb thing. But some people don't do it. Yeah. Those were about all the steps that it took for him to get in. And then within like really five to ten minutes. He was taking photos of me. So what's interesting about that is a that's a lot of things. But be none of those is sort of outrageous and something you it's like death by a thousand cuts, right? And and like, I say in the article, and I say in the video like he was using this. I mean, he's a hacker. He's he's a security expert. He works with companies to help protect them. But in for this piece. Right. He was like I'm going to help you with these off the shelf hacking, tools, like lots of people have access to them. He is like I can just Google this. And he put together some tools, he obviously knows code really. Well, got right. You know, he he was able to put these tools together, really fast. His. Arguments. Like, I was using off the shelf tools if I had really put some time and energy into this. This would have been a lot more covert. You wouldn't have probably known or you wouldn't have had to take all of these steps. But I agree with you. I mean, that's kind of the point of my piece, which is look I had to go through a lot of these steps. But if you reverse engineer that you can really see how these things are so important right in one way that you were extra secure was you were using non were sheen. So your laptop essentially was air gapped, my understanding of how a lot of this works is you know, you send these spear phishing emails two thousand people in the company one of them takes the bait. Then you're in the network, then you can access whatever you want. Exactly. And that's what he taught, and that's how he got into the IP web IP camera again, like this was I really started this as a journey to find out about webcam hacking, how likely is it? Why are we all putting these things on here? I mean, she'll be really be worried about people seeing us like I mean, I would say ninety five percent of the time. I'm sitting at my computer eating or picking my nose. I don't you know, one of those things not doing those simultaneous. I'm not yet. Well, may maybe that's how I got there. So I asked him specifically like let's go after the webcams, right? I also, you know, there's been a lot of reports right now about nest cameras not being secure enough. And really that turns out just that's a big story about people using the same passwords everywhere. He did try like he he did try to get into my Ness camera. He was unsuccessful. He he had a big database of you know, whatever the millions of breaches that have been happening over the last couple of years. He put in my personal Email address. He did come up with a couple of passwords, but they were all old. I don't use them anymore. But you easily see how people are getting into nest cameras these days, and this is one of the things I I wondered when I heard you doing this stories or we're going to get to the end of this, and it's just gonna be well don't be an idiot, but you're an idiot. So it's hopeless. That's basically the story even though but the word idiot or stupid has had to be removed from the peace and being and being charitable. About humans being idiot. So couple nights ago. I was having happened to be having dinner with somebody who runs a company that uses a I do a dentist spearfishing. And he's like look humans can't be too hard on ourselves. We have close to two hundred cognitive bias sees that you know, when we're moving quickly we make mistakes. And so a lot of what he's trying to do is recognize the mistakes that humans most commonly make and flag them, right? That's why your antivirus software, flagged it for you. That's why g mail says watch out for this. Attachment is all about trying to automate total the pave over the years that would otherwise. But then you put that against our sort of human desire to just click away from everything as fast as possible. Yeah. And this was something really interesting. That's that happened with the MAC. So we went through Iraq was also pretty complicated. Lots of steps along the way that that would have, you know, I think triggered to someone or really made somebody realize something's going on here. But you never know again, like we all do stupid things, and, you know, again, whatever's at the end of that tunnel that you really want you might really want to open that resume you might do it. Right. But one thing that apple is built. Into Mojave is or the latest version of the operating system is an alert just like you'd get on your iphone if Abbas trying to access the camera. It will let you know. And he he got into the the MAC system. He had a lot of access to do things. He was able to like take screen shots at my computer. He was sending me screen shots of my inbox. He was able to change my desktop background. He was launching a different windows. What have you? What did he he played like? Oh, yeah. He Rick rolled me. That was that was fun. And then I got this alert that said like terminal wants access to your camera had I not seen any other like signs that I was being hacked, right? He was playing around with me. So I knew I was willing. I was in on this. Right. But had I seen terminal wants access to your camera. I definitely would have been like that's weird. But you have to click. Okay. And it sort of thought like most people are going to be shocked by this. But we're so used to clicking. Okay. At this point, wouldn't they like indoors? Origins that someone may be like, oh, that's weird. Maybe some, you know, maybe it needs it for something. Okay. And also, don't forget, the the world is full of legacy windows systems that either aren't updated or in some cases as I discovered I reported on this can't the updated. So imagine there's some old windows XP system that is literally running your H back system. And you cannot upgrade it because it will break your age fact system, we this is a real thing. And so this is why you get so many hospitals getting locked out of their systems and his white ransomware works, and let's not forget also that or the two hacking groups fancy bear and the other one. I mean, we had a massive theft of, you know, DNC emails in whatever it was twenty two thousand sixteen that went to WikiLeaks from Russia because they're Sisson men was frankly, a moron FBI called him up. And he apparently he hung up on the FBI didn't believe it was them. No. And like, it's all of these things all times. Choose to be skeptical. Really weird one. But no all of these things mean that I mean, there's so many tips along the way and as as frustrating as it was that there was so many steps for me to go through. I think it was you know, like, I've said it a joked a couple of times and even told Alex like if you had been a little bit better at hacking here, it would have been possibly a better story. But I'm not sure I would have gotten as much out of it as I did in terms of what I need to tell readers to do or what I need to do. I mean, frankly, when I went to his office, and he was like, okay. Let's try the Ness Cam. Let's let me see if I can find a password. You know, he pulled up this old password knows like I remembered it was out there. But I didn't fully remember it was out there. And like just seeing that password on his screen like, you know, I went home, and I started changing all the passwords, and I started making sure to factor was turned on on things that I didn't even know to factor was available on at this point. I hope it's helpful for people. It's don't don't try to get yourself hacked. It's too two factor now is much less secure than when I gave away my Twitter password for. Years ago and just said try to act me now you can. But I wonder join a is this all just password hygiene, the I mean security updates was a big one. I also, you know, I've never as as complicated as the MAC hack was right. I needed to download and I didn't wanna go through it. Here's the number of series. Everyone should read the article and watch the video, but it was a series of steps. Right. I had to get open office. That was what the expert was being using doing all this stuff. But you know, you you think is a MAC user. Oh, I'm max don't get viruses. Max don't have now where I'm safe for me. The biggest takeaway there was that. I wanted added protection on my MAC, and you know, I think apple does a lot to protect security. But you know, the fact that the that many developers don't have their apps in the map store, you do loosen security there. You know, I've always clicked on in the in security and settings the setting that lets you override downloading apps from the internet. You know, that's one big thing that did that would have like gotten in my face. Before downloading open officer Lieber office, but I would have had that disabled anyway, because I have always just, you know, there's not all the apps I need in the map store. I I sometimes download stuff from the internet. Guess what? Most people do. So there's there's vulnerability in MAC, and I think that was a big big takeaway for me. And how we started this conversation. Like, oh, well, we don't want to be stupid like most people aren't stupid were smart, it, you know, you sort of you get pretty humble, you're like I could do that. I could see how someone would, you know, be convinced to take those steps are. I'm sitting here saying my webcam, I think the web they comes back down to that. Like, I put the webcam cover on because it was like I had this free thing there nine dollars. You can put a post it note on you can get a sticker or whatever. But like it just felt like at least this is the one thing I know that I can make sure they don't get access to like the password sound like, yeah. If you're in my system, you're probably going to get my passwords or you're going to key. Log me or you're going to get some other info from my system. But like this is one. Control. I do have some. I'm putting on the webcam cover has my credit card information. But you cannot see me picking my nose. That's right. You use the app house party? Yeah. You actually do. I don't use it because I'm. Like, why would I when I wrote about it? I house partied with some deans. Right. Yeah. Because because you're not for journalism. That's just and know anyone who hasn't used house party. Here's what it is. It's a group video chat app with a twist, basically when you log in all your friends on house party, get a notification, saying your online and ready to hang anyone can tap on the notification and just jump into a room and start hanging out with you. It's kind of like having office hours, but for your real friends anyway house pretty is a popular interesting app, especially among younger people wants to be more human more, fun, less stealing of your personal private information and selling it to sell you. And it's going through to get there. I think actually says a lot about what it takes to build a business that doesn't rely on invading your privacy. Betsy Morris one of our reporters out here in San Francisco wrote a great piece for the journal about house party. And I wanna talk about it. So let me go get Betsy China have you ever house partied? We did a piece in video on house party. Like, oh, we had these kids, and that's how I didn't really use it. But I watched them use it. They were they were talking that. Parents were we had the parents come in. And they talked about how they were using house party with their kids to like get. Their attention. That's funny Bessie. Hi, david. So okay. So I I want to kind of turn this over mostly to you and Christopher because you guys have both written about house party. But companies made a big deal out of not being like Facebook. Yeah. What that means is for house party. They don't have to accumulate tons and tons of users, but they have to do like fortnight does is to get a lot of people very engaged spending tons and tons of time on their app. So that they can sell them experiences or games instead of advertising to them. Dial and all the salaries last year on pickaxes it said. Revenue model is micro transactions to sell little things skins pickaxes, as you know, that's really interesting because it feels like house party could be the the logical successor to Facebook. If they wanted to be they're not I mean, partly because they've always said they wanted to attract communities of real friends. They don't they don't want their users to be in the race to accumulate lots of followers likes. So that sounds a lot like Mark zuckerberg's. He calls it time. Well, spent you know, what's really interesting is this book was really stocking them trying to figure out what they're heat is success was with their users and trends, the trends since then have been toward with with young people as have been toward smaller communities and kids wanting to spend talk to each other on online as opposed to in person. So us party. Kind of nailed nailed the trends. Anyway, in some parts it like kind of feels like Facebook the early days when they launched the would've was an app store, or like, these these add-ons that you could you could play farmville with your friend on Facebook like sort of feels like some of Facebook's early shared activities like shared activities like they tried to become this platform for things to be built on top of them. Of course, like Facebook did become an underlying platform for the internet. But I I would say these sort of pop up at apps and games sort of existed in silos, and you didn't need Facebook as the connective tissue between people. Yeah. The real question for house party, whether they can make a business model out of this. You know are the kids are teased in adolescence going to spend enough money on games, you know, and other experiences to be able to sustain them. And or are they going to be able to attract, you know, a wider demographic, you have a sense that house. Wants to attract other users know, they're not saying that. But I think so I mean, I think that's the partnership with Ellen Degeneres. You know, obviously, she appeals to a an older demographic. What is this partnership? I just go hang out with Ellen Degeneres. Is that you know, but you can play heads up the game that cheap plays on her show. And you know, I can play with her. No, you can watch her play it on her show. Sorry that that is so appealing. Yeah. I'm back to business model. Here we go. We have older people who are watching Ellen or seeing her on YouTube, or, you know, watch watch her play it on house party because she's promoting it on house. And it's is there a payment now for this. Like, if if you go on house party can you pay to play with Allen or watch Ellen? She's promoting it on her show periodically. She's going to be playing it in house party on her show. I now all right. I motion. Do you? See what I yes across. Yes. So house party just decided to like announces Raza deal with L N to let everyone know you can now play heads up there. Charging now to play heads up through house party. Like you hit hitter threshold, you get some free games, and then you can end up playing and you use this as the platform to. Friends. I gotta see I could totally picture, right? Older people using. I mean, honestly, I could picture my dear mother really being into house party because the whole idea is like, you you you log in and if people in your group are present, then you talk to them, you know, like so I could picture will using it to connect with are Martin. That's right. Chris. We haven't talked about your mom on the podcasts. And actually I would like to say that next week special. Guests should be your mother. I also could see my we should just have a podcast and other Shiva podcast with moms. Our moms should hang out in house party. And then they Ellen's if things if they have they have common interests people do just want to hang out. Yeah. Like do. They cook you they work out in their living rooms, my mom, which is your monks. I mean got together they would talk about what it's like to have children. That are tech columnists obvious. Right. All right. We should move on Betsy. I thank you for being here. Before we get to Pat Brown and impossible foods mims, I want you to tell the people about the bluetooth headset. You made me by yesterday. I'm very excited about it using very excited about it. Tell the people I'm the world's biggest fan of crap bluetooth headphones. Like, I'm like a connoisseur like a Muckraker for awful, Chinese-made, blue cheese headsets. But no a lot of them are not awful. So I have used air pods. I prefer to have noise canceling over the ear headphones from China and little ear buds from China. And when I want to do calls and everybody has to do 'cause I got I got my twenty dollar 'em, pow pro trucker headset. It's advertised specifically to truckers honestly, L even use it on calls in my car because how how often do you have a satisfying experience in your car? The main thing that this does is it's got one ear, bud. And it has a little noise cancelling microphone, and it's a miracle years microphone Britney Spears microphone, and it is a miracle to me how well it works. You just slap it on turn it on. Connects like today's is due. And then you have the best call experience of your life. Totally ends free way better than air pods better than messing around with anything that has a cable, and you should just be shameless about looking like a telemarketer when you wear it. I feel for anyone who is like if you're the monster. Who is the one who has all the background noise on the calls all the time. That's right. Yes. I can have calls in coffee shops. And nobody's asking me. What's in the background? And we're all in noisy environments, all the time. I I use this thing when I'm walking my dog. And there's no traffic noise. I can have conversations with people mine is actually I think tomorrow on the so excited to hear what you think of it. Yeah. I'm just gonna use it on this podcast. But that's how I do this. But I guess, okay. Coming up in just a sec my interview with Pat Brown, the CEO and founder of impossible foods. A few weeks ago, one of the buzzy est moments of the show happened outside of the convention center. And it didn't involve any gadgets. It was at a restaurant called the border grill and the food being served to all the reporters in industry pros milling around actually was the main event the event was the launch of the impossible burger to point out a new version of the all plant meat replacement that impossible has been selling for a couple of years in high end restaurants all over the country. We ate tacos burgers Tartari. An episode is all made of impossible's new recipe with no meat anywhere. Honestly, it was delicious. I kind of haven't been able to get this off of my mind or all the things impossible foods CEO, Pat, Brown said about what technology can do to make our meat better. And maybe save the world in the process. So last week, I went to the company's headquarters in Redwood City, California and sat down with Pat to talk. But I the kind folks that impossible made me burger it was delicious. I mean, it tasted like a burger. And if you've ever had a veggie burger, you know, not all burgers tastes like burgers. So impossible's in an interesting spot right now with this new recipe, the company's getting ready to sell its product in grocery stores for a price that it says won't be much higher than the ground truck. You're used to its in more restaurants all the time too. And it's still working on getting FDA approval. But the agency said essentially that while impossible's food wasn't necessarily unsafe the company hasn't sufficiently proved it was so that's still in process. But before we got to talking about all of that, Pat. And I put our burgers down and started at the beginning. I wanted to know what are you? Having is meet why is the goal of impossible foods to totally crush the meat industry. Forever. What's not to rid the world of meat? It's it's to eliminate the catastrophic environmental damage caused by the use of animals food technology. Okay. So. What we're trying to do. And we don't want the world of meat. We'd be the most hated company in history. If we drew the world what we have to do in, and basically because people want meat in there, Arkansas money Meech. So what we have to do is to find a way to satisfy the demand that's going to continue to exist without using this incredibly destructive technology that we're using today. Okay. So, but in that van you could have, you know, come up with new farming techniques or worked on a really great like vegan smoothie that. Everybody would like. But you picked you picked this. Like, why why did this impossible approach makes sense to you? You eat meat, right? Okay. What if I said, hey, listen, we got a solution for you. Instead of that meat that you're finding eat. Here's a vegan smoothie. Is that kind of work? It's the way we we do this. We have to be very strategic. We have to eliminate the demand that drives the continued use of animals in the food system. We felt like the very best thing to do is to take things that they know they want and make a version of those meets say that outperforms the cow version in the ways that people in in in in the traits that people want from burger setting, and that means deliciousness juicy nece convenience and versatility in the kitchen nutritional profile, affordability and so forth. Okay. That's one of the things that I think is really interesting about what you I would assume how to do at the beginning, which is basically take meat and sort of break it down to its component not like the chemicals of it. And the but also the the features like what it is about me that people like like what does that? How do you? Do. We wasn't by trying to get into. People's heads. And and kind of parse out what are the characteristics of meat that they like the initially what we set out to do is to understand how meat works understand how meat from animal works as a food. Okay. A part of the most important part of that is that meat behaves. Unlike any plant when you cook it, okay? So if you cook any pint base product, it basically will get warmer, and it may get crispier on the outside or or mushir. If it's broccoli or something like that. But no magic happens. Right. When you cook meat something magical happens which is that in that short period of cooking. It produces D-I-N-O-V-I-T-E. Oh, this incredibly complex, aroma and a flavor and. That's because there is a catalyst in meat that is present at Vassar concentration plans, not a an unuseful concentration plants that catalyze is this zoo of chemical reactions that transform simple nutrients that are present in the raw meat. They're the same simple nutrients by large found in plant cells. But if you just take tasted those on their own, they're just very nondescript in mildly savory, but nothing like meet you throw in this catalyst and bang. You. These reactions occur that transform those nutrients into this hundreds of of volatile compounds and flavor compounds that are the flavor in Rome of meat, so we had the hypothesis that the catalyst team he missed the molecule that carries oxygen in your blood, and it's required for life for every song on earth, even plant cells. It's what makes your blood red and what makes meat red or pink. But it's also an amazing catalyst. It's one of the one of the best catalysts, you know, that naturally occurs. And so as suspect number one, and nobody else figure this out before amazingly, no one had figured it out. I mean when we figured it out, we search through all the scientific literature. We searched to all the text on Google search through all the patent literature, and so forth Nata, so which was good for us because we were able to get very broad patents on on the use of hime to create. You know, meet flavors and aromas and stuff like that. And then now that was you started the company seven years ago is that right? Two thousand seven okay. So and then fast forward to now. And you have the impossible burger two point. Oh, which I think is I've never heard two point oh applied to a food item. Before I quite like that. Where do you feel like you are in the process of getting to sort of fully replacing what makes meet great? Okay. Maybe answering the wrong question but armies to completely replace animals in the food system by twenty thirty five. And to do it. Not by a hostile takeover. But basically by very diligently, making healthy, delicious foods that consumers prefer to all the foods that they get from animals and thereby eliminating the market that that sustains this industry that is actually pushing, you know, the global environment to the edge of catastrophe, and we're already like ninety percent of the way there. So that's our mission. And and so kind of weirdly the solution to the grace environmental problem that. Humanities over faced is to make great burgers. Like that. So okay. So you're once you get to this point. And I mean having eaten half of this burger now, I feel like if you're not all the way there you're very close to like I could eat this instead of a burger and be just as satisfied. Excellent idea. Yeah. Exactly. But you're going to be in a really interesting position where you can start to say you can start to make things that don't taste like other kinds of meat like if 2035 you've solved this problem. And you know, the the world is terrific. And everybody's eating impossible meets is is the goal. Still going to be to be as much like beef as possible. Well, no the goal. The goal was never to be as much like beef as possible. And in fact, that's one of our we have a critical advantage over the cow. Okay. Which is the cow. You can only make meet one way and terrible. It's not very good at it. It's not terrible science. Exactly, they're just they're not very introspective and. And they're terrible at making meat. That's that's the Iran. They're just the best technology we've ever had. But there are terrible technology for making meet incredibly inefficient. That's why they're so environmentally destructive. And we don't have those limitations. That's like are decisive advantage. Why I know with complete confidence that despite how crazy ambitious our our goal sounds that we're going to do it. And it's the same reason that you know, on on the day that the first commercial, motorized transportation this. Locomotive raced a horse and barely lost. If you're smart. You basically said I'm never going to bet on the horse again because horse was not going to get any faster. And now you have a new approach a new technology for transportation that's vastly improve -able on every every access that matters. And we're in that position because we get to choose the flavor we get to choose the texture on the day that we have a burger or a steak that's as good as the best one you've ever had from cow. We're already working on something even better and cows not doing that. So does that mean, you get to a point where you'll actually be able to make an sell things that have sort of no corollary in the animal kingdom, where you're you're able to invent wholly new things that absolutely. Yeah. That's the thing is that, you know, this is this tastes like meat from a cow because we deliberately chose to make it taste that way. We know how to make you know, chicken flavor. Pork flavor even fish flavor, which we figured out we figured out the mechanism behind fish flavor to. I mean, we were scre studying a lot of this stuff. So it may be there's no reason why the the animals that that are commonly consumed today are the most delicious or best. They just happen to be easily, domesticated, basically. And you know, it may turn out that you know, pterodactyl was was really the the meat that everyone would prefer. Menu and fast what people want and we'll come up with it. I mean, we can do, you know? In other words, we can dial in the flavor. Profile ostrich one time, it was delicious real something to look after. I'm sure the all star. Probably fair soap the pushback I hear from people on impossible as like, well, it's not natural. So it can't possibly be as good for you. Like, how do you? How do you work in that system where we have this long understanding of what meat is and how it's regulated? And there's two aspects to that. There's there's the it's not natural aspect, which which is to me just such a kind of a weird misunderstanding of the whole history of food that you know, the things that we eat as food today. We eat because of many thousands of years of research and discovery that humans have been doing, you know, throughout history and prehistory. Trying various parts of various plans and various animals figuring out which ones won't kill you. Which ones are. Delicious. How to combine them to make something that's even more delicious nutritious in some of the parts how to how to cook them how to whatever marinate them. They've taken ingredients from nature that are the product of thousands of years of research to figure out which ingredients are the ones to choose and how to combine them, and that research is still going on every time chef comes up with a really new dish. I mean, they have figured out there trying to figure out how to take ingredients from nature, very carefully selected and combine them and process them in a way that makes something, you know, new and delicious, right? That's what we're doing. We're taking ingredients from nature and figuring out how to combine them in a way to make something new in delicious. We use the tools that we can use our in our laboratory to do the same thing humans. We're doing thousands of years ago, but more efficient. Which is to help figure out what ingredients to use an how best to combine them to produce something delicious. That's the research part, we produce it an factory that basically used to be a bakery and is very much like one right now. And you saw the ingredients get mixed right watching her just stirred up in front of simple ingredients. Simple ingredients. All of them founded nature put in a mixing bowl and stirred. And you have a food. So that is not very exotic. That's not a lab thing. I mean, literally, we we've even thought about at some point selling to consumers just the kit of here are the ingredients that we use to make our product take him to your house and make your own and it would be just like making a brownie. I mean, no more ingredients. And and and really nothing more exotic. If you want to try impossible's new recipe look out for it soon. And he also teased that they may have figured out some things about how to make cheese so keep an eye out. Anyway, that's show. Everybody thinks to Pat Betsy Joanna and Christopher for being here. Thanks to tiny Lucius, our producer. And thank you for listening. We have new episodes on Fridays. So make sure you subscribe to instant message on whatever podcast app you use for even on. Spotify is switching to that one. As always if you have feedback or ideas, Email us at personal tech at wsJcom. We'll talk to you soon.

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