Who should lead Labour?
today we take you to Manchester whether three Labor leadership candidates join me at Guardian Hustings and life inside a refugee run nightclub in Naples Dame. We should stop doing them in the style of each alleged to shake things up. Let's see you'll came impression? Was another future is possible here becky after shout Green Industrial Revolution. And if you get me you have to shout. We win together. That's Labor leadership candidates. Lisa Nandy kissed arm. I'm Rebecca Long Bailey. In a Green Room at the exchange auditorium in Manchester decided. When this is over we're going to go for drink and have one drink every host things. We've done which is going to have a big knife. They've been traveling up and down the country for weeks. They're now ready to face. An audience of eight hundred for the latest leadership debate organized by the Guardian and hosted by May. We're just left with all the leadership candidates and we're heading out to a stage which they have been on before in many many many labor hustings from the Guardian I'm initiative Kristalina today InFocus choosing. Labor's next leader good evening and welcome to tonight's guardian. Live event for those of you that do twitter. We'd love to hear from you jury in this quite large auditorium seats. Eight hundred people. Peter Walker is the guardians political correspondent as a big stage with lectures up at the Front Bright Pink backdrop with a garage and give a very warm welcome to tonight's guest. Here's Tom comes up. I believe the front runner. He's definitely the book is favorite to win. You've got Lisa Nandy. She's an outsider that she's seen as being quite well in the rates. And then you have Rebecca Long Bailey. She is kind of seen as a choice of the Corbin wing of the party. She's doing reasonably well but she would have expected to be doing better. Where are we in the race? We are still some distance away from doing the result. That doesn't come until April fourth but this week is when the Labor members actually cast their ballots is when they first get them in the post show of hands. If you think you know who you would like to be laid and history tells us. A lot of people tend to cost postmortem Devia favor. Keep your hands up. Keep your hands up if the Oh this could yet change your mind. There's a lot to play for. He feels like this leadership race. Hasn't been cutting through as much as you might expect. That's why I said at the beginning. You've all been very nice to each other. You don't really want to land A. If I were cynical I would say. They're all shoring up that picture positions in each other's shadow cabinets whether things they said in their opening statements that told us what's most important to each of them. Yeah I mean divisions are notably different and basically the summaries they sum up what kind of appeal to Labor members is we need. The mope around take lumps vowed each other head in hand. Arguing about his it was kissed on is is very much. We have to unite. It's a party. Stop the factional infighting. That's his main message or we pull together will unite. We rebuild Becky Long. Bailey is basically saying don't ditch all the policies under the CARBONARA. She wants to keep a lot of the stuff. There's an manifesto in two thousand nine hundred and we won't win again and unite and inspire our movement if we slowly abandon these building blocks of a Socialist Societe listen and is basically. The one is the most stock message. This was no ordinary election. The entire Labor base collapsed beneath our feet when we had nurses an ex miners turning not just away from us but to the Tories who says that maybe needs to really really rethink itself apart. He's going to die. We got this wrong again. We won't just be out of power for another ten years. In ten years time there will be no Labor Party to vote for. I think quite an interesting moment to me was when I asked what their biggest political regret walls and straightaway Becky Long Bailey. Said Brace Yourself. One of my biggest regrets. I think was the way we handled brexit and then turn the subject to Brexit is quite interesting. Probably the feistiest moment of the night was when Becky Long Bailey. Lisa Nandy both attacked kissed. I'm not in a direct way. But the fact that he was a shadow brexit secretary and shape Labor's brexit policy. There are both very very critical of it. Becky Long Bailey was saying it was basically the number one problem and without that Labor won the election. Talk so many other things down with it so in the election when we should have been talking about jobs aspiration industry what the future would look like we were. We were talking about Brexit in trying to justify our position which was confusing anyway. Lisa Nandy cool too. The straw that broke the camel's back. We had half the shadow cabinet over here arguing for remain and saying there were picking aside and they're picking remain. We had another half of the shadow cabinet over there saying they were picking leave and they were arguing for leave between them. They managed to insult the entirety of this country where remain is caricatured as liberal elites and leave this character toward a stupid racist kissed kind of defend himself quite vigorous way he was saying that he taught constituency after constituency and there was complete uniformity across the country it was number one. The leadership fairly or unfairly rightly or wrongly. Anybody was in that campaign knows that was the number one thing that came up. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying let's be honest about it. The second thing was Brexit. Of course and an you know he was he was he was quite tough. He's basically saying that if people think he was just brexit and if they change brexit or everything's GonNa be fine than Labor's GonNa lose the next election to the first thing that came up with this is not me. This is the team supporting tomato. Myron experience was the manifesto overload now whether what was in the manifesto was right or wrong was too much. There was a tipping point and it didn't matter whether it's good or bad because people didn't believe we could deliver it although it's interesting. How many times during the night? Both Lisa I'm becky reference. The many men who were always making decisions. I think one of the men that they may have been talking about even if they're being lovely and plays among Islam on the Latin at the left and it is and Tom. This is an issue that Labor have never had a permanent female leader. And we've even had some allies of Becky Long Bailey. Saying he should stand down and let a woman win. I don't think is going to be an insurmountable problem for him. But the optics brilliant. I think he says doesn't either. It's not just going to be me. It's going to be my team so I expect a very female heavy shadow cabinet. Should he win? But with a man at the top of mount at the top of the triangle okay so brexit is clearly an area in which there are different ideas but another is about how to heal division within the Labour party and what role leadership plays in that and that came up next. When I asked Becky Long Bailey about Corbin I mean. It's interesting that the front runner for the deputy leadership role your friend and someone who you've said you kind of almost running partners. Angelina has suggested that Jeremy. Corbyn did not command respect in the Labor Party. Do you agree. How does she coat without? She kind of intimated the way people interpreted rain. His comments were slightly wrong Very well and suspect what she was referring to was a lack of unity within the party which has been rife unfortunately for over four years because divided parties. Don't win general elections and Becky Long. Bailey was right to say that there had been massive division within Labor. And that's why I thought it was important to actually put to Lisa Nandy whether she regretted the fact that she had been at the heart of an attempt to outscore Ben in two thousand and sixteen. It could have been quite difficult moment for her and I initially was but I think she answered that quite well and ended up getting around to applause from the room. She explained the reasons why she stepped down from the shadow cabinet. Every difficult week I went out about the party and at the end of that week. See Jeremy Corbyn to try and sort it out and I was told by very senior member of the shadow cabinet. That was going to be no attempt to sort out that we're going to prosecute this factional war until one sided one. I'm not prepared to stand for that. Our stunt for factionalism on the back benches or on the on the front bench either and the reason that I won't is because it fundamentally staff the people that we seek to represent an that wasn't the only kind of clash between Lisa Rebecca but division. I mean there was a point later on where we talked about. One of Becky's policies that is perhaps most controversial for open selections which will allow anyone to challenge a sitting in pay and then if the MP's a great and pay they'll have thought could relationship with their members and there will be rewarded and they'll be picked. What if we brought great talent available in a constituency that needs encouragement? The next Alexandria Katya Cortez for example. That's all key to winning the next general election we would that would allow them to rise up through the Party and be recognized. Why are people so concerned about now? This was a very very big thing during the Corbin era because it was seen as a way for local Labour party's which have had an influx of new largely proteome equipping members to try and unseat the sitting labour. Mp WHO's not kind of so in tune with them and ahead of the election quite a few kind of brutal fights. You agree with that. Lisa and Noah don't because the MP's I'd like to get rid of a Tory ones not labor ones and the truth is that we spent months going through this new selection process. We've always had a process where members contribute their MP and that's right absolutely right but what it produced was women and ethnic minorities were disproportionately targeted. If we had an Alexandra okay. Zia Cortez in the Labor Party. It would be a a not the older white male and peace with targeted. That's the lesson of the last few months. They all talk about party unity but I guess kissed Armas team. We'll hope that disagreements like the one we just heard will help him. Seem like the most unifying candidate. I just WanNa talk about him. Because he's clearly presenting himself as Mister Nice Guy. He doesn't want to have a go at the others on stage but I did think there was a moment on the night where we saw a different side of him at my expense when I asked him about his answer to. Lbc's Nick Ferrari a whether it's true that the most exciting thing you've ever done is take your kids to the football now. These questions are somehow supposed to be a measure of us there so pathetic. It wasn't my question no no. He caught annoyed with you. Then didn't I think you've got some of Nicaragua's light flak but with this. He got kind of slightly emotional. He's basically saying look. It's been an incredibly difficult time for him. Just just let me because in the last four weeks. My Wife's Mama's died we've been in intensive care with her before she died for seventeen days and I've been trying to be the husband. I compete my wife on the best that I can be to buy grieving children and then asked what's the most exciting thing you've done and I'm just that I know who I am. I know why start is quite a risky strategy to do this kind of moral outrage but it got crowded inside so I was wondering how to come back to that point on stage and I decided to ask him a question that I really wanted to put to him and not to the others. I mean you mentioned your kids and I'm just really interested in this and I kind of want to ask this because I feel like you probably get this question. The least. This is a big job. How you going to balance it with your family life. It's really difficult. It's really really difficult and my experience was coming in as an MP. Everybody wants you to do something every night of the week and you feel important and you put your dire and it's the wrong thing to do so one of the things that I've done so far is to say I will always be in on a Friday night with our family in our house. Natalie was quite interesting in response. He was really interesting on that. And that question very much one. The crowd back on your side by this part of the evening we were starting to get a sense. How different they are as candidates against the next step was to find out. What would they be like as a leader so I asked them to kind of throw their minds forward to April before after they've done another three hundred hurricanes or something and imagine that they've just been named leader of the Labour Party? What can we each of them to do straight away off. Raven named very very robust response. Labor's antisemitism crisis is one of the first things they need to do. We've got to put in place an independent complaints process as quickly as possible. And that's not just Semitism. That's for all forms of discrimination. I Think County Semitism was a major problem for us because we lost our moral compass and we lost our right to hold the to account about the huge failures over Islamaphobia. And I would say I want to know what's going on with this case. I want them on my desk every Friday. Because I know from running a big organization if you line of sight or something things change and I personally want to rebuild that relationship with Jewish communities and it is going to be big issue. 'cause res me soon the equality and Human Rights Commission's report in the way Labor's dealt with this is going to land on their desk and it's GonNa be fairly critical. What else did becky say? One of the things she said. Labor had to get immediately ready for which is a perfect point is going to be local cups elections in. May and in response to the many games that always made in two thousand nineteen election because conservatives are parked their tanks on all's. We know that in the seats that they've won from US. They've already started to heavily resource those areas. And we're going to have a fight on our hands to rebuild trust with our communities. What about Lisa? Lisa very much went on about this kind of localism agenda that she's got she wants to devolve some power down to many local constituency labour parties. She was talking about trying to get local people decide. How kind of certain national systems like universal credit work in local areas? Obviously as a position lead. You can't do that but she's saying she'd wants to present the findings to Voice Johnson. Say He's a better way of doing it and she said she would move labor. Hq because we cannot claim that stands for the whole of this country. If we continue to make decisions behind the dust by small town in central I would you move? It won't do Warrington Warrington which hopefully made a lot of people working Lebron? Hq in London Prick overall really again. It went really well. I tried to get care to suggest that he would do the same but it wasn't committing to that one put. What did he have to say about day? One ks response was a bit more vague but going back to this unity theme that he's going he said he'd want to set a unified tone from the very very top and he made the point he'd want to immediately start to kind of tackle take on boys. Johnson perhaps a bit more than the current leadership has been doing. Boris Johnson doesn't some public cloud is a really dangerous man. We need to take him on in parliament and across the country of be seem to be doing that as a very very effective opposition. One of the things that can have to do is take on. Boris Johnson at prime minister's questions in parliament. Every week. Which you report on. How do you think they'll do any of them is going to be this very very intimidating atmosphere because they'll be working to chamber which we packed with many many moratorium peas and they'll be very loud to be trying to intimidate the new Labour leader? Well he's not known for his forensic relationship with detail. Let's say so. I think it's a good start. Machiavelli's answer to that question is quite interesting. I also don't think he'd be able to cope with a ball. She northern woman who says things as they actually are in interviews eastern of the past. Sometimes it's just a personal Boston's doesn't like being interviewed by kind women who are reasonably strong minded towards him cyclope tricky. I mean they've all got their kind of strengths in this. I think would be very very good too. And she'd have a similar kind of style possibly to Becky that she's quite straight talking. She's a northern woman should be very very different to Boris. Johnson kissed his team believe that whilst he will be another white middle aged man facing off against a white middle-aged man his big difference. Is that Boris Johnson. Famously bad on the kind of detail he's going to be facing someone who was he can at times be slightly boring spooky say his grasp of detail is very. He's accusees one of the most talented. Pc's of his generation. And I think Boris Johnson might in a way find that quite tricky to face someone who just is prepared himself. Well in those brief one thing they seem to agree on was the one challenge facing us. Johnson is finding away to communique that can take on those powerful slogans. He's had like take back control. Get brexit done brought to recognize that historically and this goes back over the last forty years. We've never explained ourselves in a way that appeals to many of our voters. We've not spoken about their aspirations. And it was pretty clear on the night that this agreement on policy areas for example in favor of a more liberal immigration policy. But the question is how to sell it and when people rejected free movement. It wasn't a rejection of the nurses who can work our hospital if people in Wigan warm and welcoming decent intolerant as anybody else where the people who set the support for new arrivals project where the people in from the far right out of town but what. They were angry about with the sentiment that we were celebrating. This is coming to work in the hospital. Same time as the Tories had got rid of the education maintenance allowance on the nursing bursary and their children couldn't work in that hospital and then becky and cared passionately about the green new deal. It would've tackled the big issue of our time but it would have turned into an economic opportunity. I didn't detect in the last general election. The people wanted things to stay the same. A genuinely think people wanted change and an audience member Lisa whether she supported the policy kind of to and FRO ING. Who's the architect of the green new deal? Because this is something that was Becky Bailey's kind of Policiere in the twenty thousand nine elections. So she's very keen to have her thing but listen that he was saying that when she was in the shadow cabinet she came up with a I kind of version of this but she again says it should be about kind of selling it to people. She saying what we really mean is cleaner more reliable better bosses in Bassetlaw and home insulation in Warrenton that cuts energy bills for families and clean energy jobs in grim space. That the people of Grimsby Comparis- through the next generation just like they're powerless through the last stocks. The positive transformational agenda. That will win in Burton. And we've got to go out and make the case I'm win so it shouldn't be presenting people's this is this revolution that's going to change and apathy. You'll just make your life cheaper and better. They also talked about the housing crisis and motivation. And then I turn into another area. That isn't always an easy. Sow on the doorstep. Perhaps but was certainly an easy. Sell a a guardian live. Event was the mention of electoral reform. What have you support P. R. Reload Electoral Reform? The we love electoral reform. And it's really important for the Labor Party to consider it. It's always resisted it in the past because it hasn't been in its interests. Could we expect any of these guys to bring in? Proportional voting system kissed on was the first one to be asked about that. I very open to the idea that we change our voting system because I think for millions of people particularly safe seats. They vote doesn't count. I certainly listen to his answer. Thinking he backed. Pr Rhetoric. Deepak. He just said. He wanted to change electoral system. So it's not quite clear what that was and Lisa aunties being very very appropriate underpass Caroline Lucas from the Greens about working with other parties. So I mean I think this is very much debate. That's going to wait for the new leader but it will come good evening everyone. My name is Gary Lloyd Lee. Clp some very very grateful for the references that have been made in your observations are absolutely spot on towards the end of an I an audience member from constituency of lay in the northwest which had been labor since nineteen twenty two until December said Labor. Lost the general election in December by a landslide. But did we win the argument? Nick Jeremy Corbyn two days after the election suggesting that losing the election didn't mean losing the arguments kissed Hamas response to that was really very very strong when you lose. There's a cost to losing an election on his paid by the millions of people who needed change and therefore we can't pretend there was any good that came out of that General Election. So that's the problem in the north and in the Midland's there's another issue isn't there and Scotland and if you can win back people in Scotland those labor ever have a chance of building majority again so we don't if we don't win back Scotland them. We're not going to be a National Party of Government. That's really play. I only have time to put that one. Which was Lisa Nandy but she clearly for it was a big problem so ex labour voters who turned Tory. They felt that they'd had to vote. Tory in order to defend the United Kingdom because they felt that Labor hadn't stood up loudly and clearly enough especially in Westminster in defense of the United Kingdom and her prescription for is to make labour much more strongly. Pro Union Party again. This is not going to run and run. I mean just how may after this event but also from what you've seen in this contest. What have we learned about walk type of Labor leader? Each of them would be the first thing to point out is however polite and Nice. They are to each other at these events. Behind the scenes they're teams and allies are kind of pre against each other just as brutal in many ways is any other. Let's go fight going in. No Particular Order Kiss Tom. I think we've always known would be a kind of safe choice and his mantra is very much unity unity. Unity Make Labor electable presentable. Like a kind of serious party. I think we saw at the event. You can also be a bit more human than maybe sometimes build Listen and is. Mantra is very much about making labor much more localized but also just having to fundamentally rethink the Party and US twenty. Nine hundred is the starting point to kind of rebuild it. She seemed to again do quite well. She's she's she's performed reasonably well in these events so far and the crowd seemed to like love what she said Becky. Lynn Valley is to an extent slightly cursed by the fact that she's seen as a continuity corbin candidate and that's brought a lot of support from within the party but this may be given a slightly less explicit but I think we have seen over the course of race start to open up a bit. There was some criticism that you know during the general election. She was very very much on message. Let go but some of her answers at the event what she really couldn't quite personal he was. He was a kind of new side to her. And can I ask you just one last question? They're trying to win over Labor members right now and I pointed out to them at one point. During the evening that Labor members data shows are significantly more socially liberal and actually more left wing economically than the country as a whole even then Labour voters. Will we expect them to change their message when they win this contest? Change your approach. May I think that's why they're all trying to keep their specific messages and promises very very vague because they don't become tied to anything in particular. This is going to be very very difficult one because the races are completely different things. Winning over Labor members takes a certain kind of skill set and I guess as we saw in the last election. In with Jeremy Corbyn he was enormously popular with Labor members and still is but that wasn't enough to win over the country and this is going to be the big challenge and I think if kissed winds and I think you know the polls are certainly pointing towards. I think it could be because Labor members are almost trying to second guess. Alita they think might go down well with that you know friends and neighbors were not Labor members. They might be right. They might be wrong times going to tell we are. We are at the time but before we go hands off. Anyone who's been persuaded quite a few people that have changed their minds tonight. Peter Thank you very much thank you. That was Peter Walker the guardians political correspondent. He and the whole Westminster Team are following this race. Do Re best up on the website including our sketch writer John. Crises take on the night of the hustings. I'd also like to thank you for comments and reviews relating to today and focus. Do keep them coming. Especially if you also fancy giving us a five star review coming up inside a nightclub in Naples run by refugees Too often in science podcasts. We hear voices not the people who might be affected by new discoveries that those who made them were if we flipped on its head scope an extra crime zone and I would absolutely do that and it's not change her. It's changed the extra crimes and hosts her back with our common threads podcast. We traveled around the country to hear people's questions hopes and fears when it comes to something gene editing. I'd say that he's very happy in. He skinned the only person suffered because of him is me to have a listen. Just search common threads on your podcast APP now. Young Cuba Fatty was a second year by a chemistry student in the Gambia when he had to flee the country after protesting for the restoration of student grants after a long journey through the desert as a prisoner under slave in Libya and across the Mediterranean Sea. Young Cuba found himself in Naples where he hoped to build a new life instead he ended up in limbo. Asylum-seekers must wait for years in the hope of acquiring refugee status and their official papers during this time they are unable to work and regularly face brutal racism. A New Guardian documentary teranga named after a refugee Ron nightclub explores Naples through the eyes of young Cuba and other asylum-seekers right in the heart with Naples. 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Because I don't have papers but because of the intense blatant racism that phase us as a black person also as an immigrant in Italy to get the permit on average people waited for like five years. Someone like me who's got dreams of going to university company in the university and having my bachelors in three. I'm probably having my master's in an additional two years. If you tell me that five years is what it needs to take to get my document. That's a huge disappointment to me. Migrants have hopes they've got dreams. They left their countries not because they wanted to but because they are forced to either be politically like in my case or economically. Enough people do not understand this. Mama you get into Toronto for. You didn't always black people you didn't always see migrant you have citizens also. Italians they get there. They see what magazine Tar basically like they see of migrants on TV and media as migrants drugs and migrants of killed so and so people Maghera diseases and start flag. Purvey our music playing. If they have dreams they wanna feel alive like you. Do the humans like you did dancing to music like you. The only thing that you have different Israeli citizen and citizen but the moment you had taken a look into the laps of migrants has power to do. That has asked that was young. Cuba fatty do check out the fantastic teranga film on the website. The music was by DASA gang a Naples Group of refugees from the Gambia happily. Since the making of the film young Cuba has now received an offer to study criminology. And Italian at the University of Banja. The filmmakers have set up a fund to help him to get their TERANGA. The documentary dot Com. That's it for this week. My thanks to a walker and young Cuba fatty this episode was produced by Elizabeth Casson. And Courtney user sound design was by Axel Kukuchi. The executive producers are Phil may not and Nicole Jackson have a lovely weekend. And we'll be back on Monday on the next one.