So You Think You Can Dance 15 | Live Shows & Finale Recap Podcast


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I'm well that was such a such a nonplussed response now. I know I usually like launch right into my thoughts and feelings, but I'm just going to ask you how you going for context lead at. I've already been talking for an hour and a half. Doubts you didn't miss an entire podcast now know a lot of big brother. Yeah, we have to. We have to catch up when we don't have our have our weekly, so I think you can dance chats. This is so true. Yeah. So we are going to talk about the finale and in that way, talk about the season as a whole, because the nice thing about the same thing could dance finale. Is that sort of a recap of the entire season in itself, but before we get started on that Kelly, are there any overall thoughts on the season on the top ten since we last spoke that you want to give? Oh, yes. Oh, for sure. First of all, honestly, FOX like, look, I know we love so you thinking dance. So this isn't actually serious of me like, please don't cancel the show. But honestly, if you're not going to let us actually have the show, why are you doing a show like this was so insanely short. We had a top ten and it was like, I literally, I will confess now I literally watched the entire season from like the live shows on in the last two days to catch up for this podcast because knowing we were going to just do a finale podcast, I actually wanted it to all be fresh, so actually saved them up so that I could watch them the last few days. Of course, not thinking of course, then they all start to blend together and that was a bad strategy, but I really thought it would work, but like I shouldn't be able to do that. I, we went from the top ten to the top four in a blink of an eye. We barely got to know these people like this. This was so insanely short to begin with and what happens if it's so insanely sure in terms of the vote and you could tell because like you could tell this drove twitch. Razi is that one couple or one person. But in this case, a couple can get a lot of momentum and something from week one can propel people through and totally affect the vote for the entire season. So every single I mean, I will. I will not gripe with the first set of eliminates because even though I love Evan, he didn't live up to his potential in the live shows. And part of that was a lack of good showcasing. But also he really didn't live up to his potential. But like every single vote, I thought was wrong all season, but to say all season is nothing. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah, I don't trust Americans to vote, but this was maybe their worst voting performance across a full season like they've gotten bigger things more wrong understatement of the century. But like. This whole season the I, I thought I was shook the week that Cole and Magda went home in one fell swoop. And then the next week, Darius and JJ were eliminated at the same time, like those are two of the best male dancers they've ever had on the show and eliminated to gather like one hundred percent of the actually think Jensen did win me over. But one hundred percent of this final four was worse than one hundred percent of the people they beat. It makes that many Chelsea like this. This whole season. It was like last season the week that Mark went home. It was like, I felt like that week, but the whole season. Yeah. So I will say that I have held onto the opinion that I've had since Vegas that Hanaway is the best female dancer, I. She was to me the best answer in the final four in it's not even close. However, JJ Daria. Were better than the other three people easily. And I think that at least areas was probably better than Hanaway, but I think that the right person, one in the finale and a person that overall out of the top top ten, I'm very happy with. She has been in my is the best answer, which doesn't mean that she's necessarily the best performer or should be favorite dancer or whatever. But technically speaking, she is one of two or three of the best dancers. They're willing to concede that she's maybe the best answer there. However, yeah, Darius and JJ are better than the other three it. And it's it's so far in a way particularly Darius technically that lake I, it was unbelievable when those two were eliminated for me, and it was hard for me not to think about the idea of like, and I'm not trying to get on a soapbox. I pointing out the facts here. The only black male winners we've ever had of this show have been hip hop dancers and it may or Crump burgers. You know what. Yeah, and it makes me wonder if there is just some sort of subconscious disconnected. It's not a matter of people picking up the phone and voting consciously racist. That's not what I'm saying at all. But I think that there is a disconnect where something about a contemporary or jazz dancer being a black man just doesn't fit with our narrative of. So you think you can dance or dancing general in this way that is easy for people to to understand our connect with. And that just really bums me out because I don't know why you would not vote for these two. In looking at the series as a whole. Oh, I guess there's Nick. Nick kind of throws it off because Benji was a ballroom dancer, and then we had Ricky now they're the Nick. And Ricky, has there ever been a male non hip hop dancer, who I mean. Olex. Right. If. Everybody. Remember the final six this year when fully half the all stars were just last year's finalists. Guys. It's like the Pitta me of lazy. We saw so much like they didn't wanna pay a tap dancer to come in to. They just had likes to a set number in the finale like, oh my God. Anyway. Okay. So they so they have had a few, I would say, like in general, though the voting does trend like no female hip hoppers and no male, none hip hoppers like to take race out of it Ray like that. Although we have had a couple, but like not they don't tend to do super well. Though some of them are just like mind blowing. I will never like season three will never cease to amaze me these, like even if people couldn't get behind Danny who had some personality stuff that was hard to invest in, like, why didn't needle win? Like what was happening there that we went like with this perfectly fine, lovely girl. But like there are some interesting gender things the way that the vote goes down and then like the mediocre guy who always gets too many votes based on personality is one hundred percent of the time a hip hop dancer, like there's there's there are some weird weird things that happen demographically speaking with these votes, not as fascinating as what happened with American idol year after year to year, that was like genuinely like people should write pay. I'm sure they have written papers about like the white male streak guitarist, and the losing finalists because of Gaber and like all the fascinating stuff there. But like there are. Interesting gender dynamics and racial dynamics. We've some some college junior has written a term paper and how David Cook caused Donald Trump. Okay. Okay. David Archer, let a love because like David, it would not have been demographically significantly David. The first one is hopping. Sal and beating them land. I was about to say, obviously, the go to example, is the guy who beat out of Lambert, but I couldn't remember his name. His name was Chris Allen and. I mean that one's the best example, because at least the guy who be Klay was minority. But like, yeah, both times the person who obviously should've should have run away from with the season who lost in the final two. It was because they were rumored to be gay of them not out at the time just rumored to be, which was fascinating anyway. But this show is a little bit more complex with that leg. We do complex, Kelly, learn. Like. There is a a much wider range of winners. Yes, but I do find it really interesting breaking down the dynamics of who does well in terms of the vote. Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting to point out like it's not I'm not accusing any. So you think dance voters of anything? It's just the idea that I think never having a black non hip hop winner. Blackmail not hip hop winner is something that I've just been thinking about and was just really, really bombed to see those to go out where they did, especially because the one man who made it into the final four was just so technically the worst, I don't who did Slavic do his ballroom with that was like the hardest thing to watch all season. Well, there were there were heated a couple ballrooms Genesee with Jensen. And what was tricky about that? Is that like Jensen Nigel said she looked like an all star and she she did. I'm really interested in your thoughts on Johnson. Anyone who remembers our last podcast and the one before that, and possibly even the one before that we are not. All of them. We were not Jensen fans largely because I felt like the show was really on her side. And I don't like when the show picks a winner before long before anyone's actually in contention. And I did feel very strongly that they were like leaning into the Lynn Lindsay's little sister. That's why we want her all that stuff. But something she said in the finale was like, I started as Lindsay Arnold little sister and now I get to be Jensen Arnold. And to be completely honest with you, Jensen won me over and she wanted me over really fast. Like I think she proved herself really strong. I think what we saw in the last episode that we that happened before we podcast at last I said her, I think her performance to get into the top ten was the best of the lot. I think she didn't incredible job and then, but that was the first time I'd really seen that from her. I had no evidence before that that she was anything other than just like a fine ballroom girl. I thought she was spectacular all season. I think she easily should have one. I do. Disagree that once we got to that final four there were there were people that I don't think she should have won necessarily over like JJ or Darius, or there were lots of people in that final ten. It was a really strong ten. But it was just voted totally wrong. And the two, I would say the two weakest dancers of the entire season ended up in the final four which threw everything off. I never personally invested in Hanaway. It got much worse when she talked about when they were like doing the fun facts. And her fun fact is that she has OCD which like then she defined OCD wrong, which was really offensive. And she talked about like, and then identify trophies in my house, and I'm like, oh my God, I hate you. What is this girl? And yes, she's a very lovely dancer, I I, she never struck a chord with me. It was totally personal. I just like couldn't couldn't invest in her. I was really impressed with Janssen. She really wanted me over and I'm interested to hear whether you ever got over your Jensen hate because I really did. And that's not something I usually do. Yeah. So I I didn't. I'm always I am always team good dance. This is why last year, even though lex was not my favorite, I was always fine with lex winning. Even though we saw a mile away, I was always happy to see lex, be poised to win. And it's the same thing with me even though like she's not someone that I necessarily personally connect with too much. She's just someone that I have seen as the best answer for a long time. And so I was always rooting for her. And I think it's a. Similar thing with Johnson where like I really never got over not liking her, but by the end I was like, she should handle the come in second over these other two. By the time, it was final four. Like I would never deny that she didn't deserve to be in that top two because she did. Stay at a great sewing should never had a bad performance and she's a great dancer, and that's undeniable. Just I, it was always even the like Lindsay's little sister thing and now Johnson, it's, it's always this like manufactured chip on her shoulder where like it's just pretending it's a disadvantage to be Lindsay's little sister and like I got like, she's in her shadow or whatever. Like it just was always so fake to me. And so like, oh, the poor, you, you had a huge leg up in this competition in terms of screen time, people remember you from last year. So when they're voting like you already have that going for you, I just was never reading for and also just it's so hard because when you have these final four performances where they have like everybody do a duet with each other in the final four, obviously, she and another girl can't do her style. Like they wouldn't have to girls do ballroom. So it is hard because I'm only comparing her to someone else directly in styles that she's not in, but just any dance suited with Malaysia was just so vastly out technique that like it's not her fault, but it was just hard for me to watch her during any performance with hennelly. Oh, man. I see. I disagree. I think that I mean, I totally. That's a misstatement. I totally agree about the narrative stuff like you're right, like it was a step up to be Lindsey, sister, and I didn't think that that was necessarily the thing I said about gets we Johnson Arnold like not. I didn't think that was like a compelling story. I just think it was really true and it's like honestly, like she first of all, she out performed Lindsay on her season, which I thought was very impressive. I actually, I think Lindsay is great dancer. You can check our dancing with the stars are most recent. We didn't do last season with the one before that which was Lindsay's like big great season, which Orden Fisher huge, huge fan of Lindsay thinks she's a great Criag refer. She's a great coach. She's fearless all that kind of thing. I like Jensen better. Like I like Lindsey versus Johnson. I think I love how strong Johnson is the on a personal level. I don't. You know, she's not the most compelling person that's ever been on the show. I do. I do think she she does not have an interesting personal story and she tries to manufacture one which is not the cutest. But I think she, I think she's extraordinarily dancer. I disagreed that I was watching her next to handle and thought there was that much of a Gulf in terms of their technical ability. And I kept forgetting that she was a ballroom dancer, which is my favorite thing to do. It was a little bit like when you talk about Jenna where I was just like, I forgot issue is so strong and so many things. And I like physically, I loved her her type how she approached her physical type and how she approached that. Like she's a bigger girl like she is her Scott, these big muscles and he's broad shoulders, and I loved personally. The most compelling she ever was I thought was when she did her segment about going to boxing gym because that is such a like the idea of like bulking up and being a strong woman is such an interesting concept because it is so looked down on in society. I remember Hillary swank really buffed up for a million dollar baby where she played a boxer and she looked incredibly strong and her talk and giving interviews and talking about how she hated it. And she'd never been in better shape in her life, and she hated it because she was bulky and she didn't look very feminine and that wasn't good. Yeah, although worth noting that Johnson losted significant amount of weight before coming on the show. That's interesting to know. I between her audition and even a kademi week to me, it was really noticeable. It's not the sort of thing I noticed, but in terms of like, she's like. She's a strong person. I don't know if you're talking about like, I'm assuming you're time Pudge weight as opposed to like muscle. Wait. I mean, I mean, it's not a value judgment at all, but just to be interesting look if you if she issue. Yeah, but like I just like the idea of bulking. Yes is interesting. It's not. I mean, she's a very feminine looking person, so it's not that big of a deal, but it just especially when she was standing next to handle a who is this little sprite of a person. It just it was interesting to me that was really compelling. When I when I like dancers who really approach things from a strength point of view, and there's an athletic to it, the sport of dance I think is just sort of monumentally. Impressive. And on a show that, to be honest, I felt it really strongly this season, the artistry of dance. I do not find come through particularly strongly on you thinking in dance, especially this season, I just felt like, yeah, it's, it was. It was so. So repetitive, every dance looked identical to the one before it like a just it's not there. And so at a certain point it becomes for me about the physical feet of it, which is counterintuitive for my natural instincts, I'm much more like our versus sports or whatever. But I think Jenson really impressed me. She won me over personally, don't care, but like I think she was the, especially in that terrible. Final four. I think she was the dancer of the season. Yeah. And again. Cannot complain about her coming in second or say that she didn't deserve any of that. But this is a reality show, which means that I get to pick who I like right by all. Pick whoever you like MAC Distel, whatever. Only we're teen. I liked all year was the, it's not a violin bow, an agile. I'm sure that's a cello bow. It makes no sense for it to be Wia limbo, but whatever the strings. So on that note, are there any routines that you really enjoyed that were not represented in the finale? Ooh, not represented in the finale. You feel like any worse nub d-. Oh, I've already forgotten. Absolutely everything I saw. The only one that comes to mind for me was I really loved the coal and Hanaway get happy routine. That was so sweet. I think I think both you and I love when we have a total joy of dance routine. Because it's shoes on, honestly, not comment, and it was just so well, dance and call is such a delightful performer for a person who looks like that. So that was my next question. How into colour, you. I was like, I feel like this guy is maybe lead abate a little bit. He did not seem super woke, but other than that, I think grows a mustache and maybe. Like tones down the the muscles a little bit. Okay, that's. But his muscles are very, like dancer. He's he's a little too broad shouldered which obviously not a bad thing. Just not thing. However, if you saw him in person, I feel like he'd smaller than you think, However, I loved that he is one of those people who looks like he could be totally would unstaged, but also it's totally willing to pull faces and be completely silly, especially in that yellow coat routine. I think that his little moment is so adorable, and he was coal really grown me. I think I was fine when he got eliminated, but I was like, yeah, that was more than I expected from him. No, man. I mean, honestly, like Chelsea and Evan. I was disappointed that we didn't didn't do more this season, but eliminating the top four, which whatever. And the bottom two, which whatever that middle section that was gold, those four in the middle. If I could just watch a season like that to me is a beautiful final Darius, coal and Magda, beautiful. Yeah, come on. Now there's a beautiful season. Yeah, I agree. But I think he he's surprised. I'm really, really glad that we got the of and lex tapper teen because I'm going to watch that a proximity a thousand times an actually liked that it was lex and not Gabby, not not because I mean, you know, obviously, Gabby, it's not necessarily my favorite, but I think it's really fun to see. Two men do a very classic tapper teen and they're silly purple suits. It was just different than I think what we would have gotten if it was him and Gabby where there would have been some lifts and things that we've already seen a lot of totally agree. Do think they should have paid Zach everhart. Now there's there's two possibilities right? Either both Zack and Aaron who were there to potential tapper all stars who are who are male because they wanted specifically, this was in the style of someone or other who were it was designed. Yeah, something that I wanted it was designed for two men. Gabby wasn't in the running, but the two potential tap all stars either they reached out to them and they were legitimately busy. So they went to the other guy, they knew who could tap well enough to do it that totally fine. If that is what happened. I highly doubt that it's what happened. I think lex was already in the building to do that skin weird mask routine thing, Genesee, and they were like, hey, you can tap rate this way. We don't have to pay a second all star. We don't have to fly in Zach. Let's go. And that annoys me because I really, especially for tapper because they, they don't have the opportunities that the other people do. They don't get beyond dancing with the stars. They're not used as all stars very often because the show doesn't have a lot of us for them when there is a use for them, bring them in his legs. Can do literally anything give Zach is shot, but Alexa also had to be there to support his girlfriend who still together. I talk. Taylor who blindsided the season Taylor was in the best routine of the entire season. In my rebellion him. Can you believe this is my favorite routine. Yes. Are you shocked leader? I really I, here's the thing leader. First of all, dairy is is extraordinarily beautiful creature from heaven. And he danced this insanely wonderfully and long lived areas. This routine. If you take away the costumes and the makeup and travis's little spiel beforehand telling you what it's about it and and the fact that it's like a very important topic, and it really touches people's hearts and all that kind of stuff. And they danced it very beautifully. It looked exactly like every single other routine we've ever seen in terms of the actual choreography of this routine. How was it different from the. Kent and Neil conflict routine or the robber in Tucker routine, like all of the all of the really sentimental, really quote, unquote, powerful Tra driver, Travis wall routines. Why? I think it would be hard to say that about anything. I think you could look at any cha-cha that's particularly great and say, how is this different than any other cha-cha that we've seen? I think generally for the most part except for that. Fabulous and Sasha one, that was real good. Yeah. I mean, I think that obviously the show has been on for so long and Travis square graft. A lot of routines at this point that like stuff is going to look the same because it's in a very specific genre which is not just contemporary, but so you think you can dance contemporary that is in this amount of time and choreographed for this stage and to get these votes. So I think that that's something that you could say about almost any routine at this point. But I think if we're talking about something that. Affected me personally because the material obviously is really close to me. And if anyone is confused with obviously talking about thirteen where Darius has the makeup on and Taylor is representing the institution of heterosexuality, I guess, which like etc. Confusing because they had her like it men, male dress, right. Don't you think it would have been more powerful to have that be a male dancer who was like, be playing a super super SIS character maybe. But I think also she is representing just masculinity in general. And I think that heart of four, maybe it's more interesting if she's a super SIS, female character. No. I mean. He's doing this sort of like you are not enough. I don't know whatever. I trying to make it a better routine is representing masculinity in general, and I don't think it matters which gender dancer is portraying that. Because basically the point is that like it doesn't really matter what gender you are like in a way like we are all enforcing these structures of normalcy and gender roles and all these things. So I, I don't think that matters much to me. No, except that like don't you think that then basically talks about one side of the issue in one experience and trivializes the female to male? No, no, because I don't think that any dance can be asked to represent every single person story. I think that this is a dance about one specific st-. Story and one narrative and right, and I'm not asking it to. I am saying one one small change don't you think would have made it a stronger piece, and that's having it be a male dancer or a female character. No, I'm saying that I don't think it matters to me which gender dancer is representing masculinity. Okay. And, but I think that the fact that we are even having this conversation, there are so few. So you think you can dance pieces that we could talk about, like what it means and what could have improved it like story wise. Like I think that the fact that we're even capable of having this conversation represents a step forward for for the stance as opposed to a lot of the other contemporary dances that we've seen. I don't know. I felt like, and this is not the fault of the dance so much as the fault of the response to the dance, which is such a lake whole. I always fall into this stuff, but like I felt a little bit the same way that I felt after the breast cancer routine that like seminal moment with Thais, Yorio Oreo in season five or four. That it was a breast cancer routine, and it was it was a fine, lovely routine. It was well danced, whatever. But it was like far from one of the best technical dances of the season, and it just got it became this gigantic moment and everyone was crying and I just from dance point of view. I just felt like try. I think Travis hides the work behind the story so often and another choreographer guy criticized for that this year. And I just think that this was an important piece and he gave it to exactly the right male dancer. And for for the leading role. And I think that Travis should have done a better routine. I think this story deserved a special routine and instead of choreographing the same old stuff and applying an important message to it and expecting that to be enough. And it wasn't enough because everyone was willing to let it be enough, and I think it is better than that, and I think he needs to. He was looking great this year, and I think that his his string instrument routine was fantastic. Other than that, I think Travis wall phoned in the entire season and I wanted him to try harder, especially when you have a dancer, like Darius who can do and everything. Give them something to do. Okay. I'm gonna respectfully. Disagree. I had no problem with the choreography. There's a great moment where Taylor is behind him. He is front and center, and she has this gorgeous, like kind of emir. Staccato fall to the ground that sticks in my mind and it's connected with his movement in a way that I think was really interesting. And I just think that like even if I was maybe more critically judging the choreography, it was something that was performed and put together powerfully enough to make me just saw both times that I watched this on TV and the fact that it's on primetime on FOX, and Nigel lift go is standing for it. And and again, this is about the response. So I understand your point about thirteen itself in this is more about the context of it, but the fact that Travis did this and pulled it off and it's, it's on this show that I think has so much late and homophobia through the years in the ways that male dancers are allowed to express themselves so much so many years of slogging through Nigel, criticizing gay men for their ballroom frame because they're not. Masculine enough and all of these like in ways that that he points that out. And then finally we have this, which is thanks to the experience of so many male dancers and just so many male performers in general. It just really meant a lot to me and I thought that it was at the very least well executed enough. Yeah, I'm just really cynical, but this kind of thing, it always feels reactionary to me. It always feels token e and you know, like I think the success of Darius on the season relative though it was because obviously he deserved to make it further than he did. Dancers like him have made it a lot not like not to the final six before. And so the successive areas on the season I do think is Ha's momentum. That said it was not that wasn't enough for me in terms of like actual honest to God progress. And we talked about this when we talked about who made it into the final ten. We were talking, what was that kid's name? Who did the hip hop who was like pretty good, but not amazing tip up. No idea. I want to say his name was like Jonathan or something, whatever that kid who got eliminated and he made you made you really mad the way that Nigel criticized him. That kind of thing is still so present on the show. And I don't think that a token very. You know, I guess, okay. This is also coming from like a liberal Canadian coastal city kind of point of view. I do live in the bubble and I live in the bubble, but like it fell like an easy thing to do at this particular moment. And I understand that like in a larger context, it isn't. But for someone who is in the art scene in for Travis, I think it it isn't that difficult of a thing to do. And I think to like actually not capitalize on an popular political moment, but to actually really enforce some changes. There are two different things, and I think I find it frustrating and he does this all the time. He does like a something that's going to hit people in the heart, and that's going to bring him further than. The actual work would. I think I just don't agree that in this moment. This was an easy thing to do. I think that this as much as it may not seem like a risk in our circles, I really do think it was, and it's not to me a total fix on the problem and those no more homophobia and so you think you can dance or anything like that. But I think just because it's singular or just because it's the first time that something's been done doesn't mean that it's a that it's token. I think an out gay man choreographing this authentic routine for another out gay man that represents an authentic experience to so many dancers is not that doesn't automatically make it a token just because it's the only routine we've seen like this. Yeah, if fell. Yeah. I don't know. It felt shallow to me. I didn't like it. I will say Darius, did a beautiful job with it. And I do think for Darius it was bolder than it was for Travis. I think Travis gets a lot of credit for that kind of thing. And I think for Darius as someone who would get those sort of terrible Nigel criticisms, someone who is. Vulnerable to those criticisms putting himself in in the potential line of fire as opposed to, you know, really being like, I wanna do a hard hitting hip hop after a hard hitting hip hop after a hard hitting hip hop to prove that I don't deserve those criticisms. I think that there is something more bold to and Darius. Again, this was beautifully danced and beautifully acted. I think he did a wonderful job. I just it wasn't enough for me and I get frustrated with huge just like that was the greatest thing we've ever seen in the history of the world. And I'm like, all right anyway. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, I think that it's, this is the longest conversation we've ever had about a single dance. So at the very least for better for worse, it started a conversation. I hope that it did with people at home also because this is a show that so many people watch with their parents, and I think that could have potentially sparked conversation there. But anyway, can we, what should we? What should we talk about? Where do we go here? Kelly. What else have we can talk? Haven't we talked about in terms of routines that were notable? I mean, I, I'll person someone on Twitter wanted to talk to you about the dance I had. I hated every second of that. I couldn't watch it either time. Okay. So this is. So I wanted to ask you about this. So we talk a lot about cultural procreation specifically for some reason during Disney week under the stars conversation we have that is I think a little different that is not a dance style that is playing a character who is not of your race that I think is a lot bigger of in issue this now I might be misreading, you and your hatred of this. This routine. Somebody on Twitter had tweeted at you like the second air. They're like, I dearly to talk about this dance and I'm sort of just nuts but words into your mouth, but guessing it sort of irked you on a cultural appropriation. Angles, but then I wanted to ask you about African jazz and Bollywood and representation. And just, you know what I'm talking about. So this is this is not something about. I think that this is like morally wrong or it is racist that they did this. They have to Shen quarry choreographer just as they always do with the African jazz and with the Bollywood and stuff. The African jazz specifically bothers me because they are always playing like animals or like savages and its like, does a specific Sean Cheesman problem. We talked about it all last season. Yeah, like so weird. This was hard for me to watch because Jensen looks so completely ridiculous and it's, she can't do it any better. She just does look ridiculous because she's wearing a costume that like is completely nothing that she's should ever be wearing in any other context doing movements that look weird on her body, which there's nothing she can do about that. Again, I think that she danced it fine. This was also not JJ's culture, but I don't know if it's just that he's a better dancer or what, but it didn't look as ridiculous on him. I think it's something that like I don't know what the answer is right, because like I can't. I don't want this show to not bring in diverse choreographers and diverse dance forms. I wish that there was a way to do this that represented the essence in the style of the dance without having them have to dress up like people from Tahiti. Yeah. I mean a couple eight sort of a catch twenty two, because on one hand, it is so important that the show acknowledged that there is more to the word dance than contemporary and hip hop and ballroom, and even actually contemporary aside, but like ballroom and hip hop have cultural things with them like the Latin dances, the hip hip hop has its roots in black culture like these things come from places. The thing is that those ones have have been done so broadly by so many people at this point that the the specifics of its culture have been kind of washed into some sort of like mentally soupy thing. And it ceases to at least like raise her hairs a little bit. It's important that they do things like to dance, and it's also specifically with something like to Houston, dances opposed to lake African jazz in terms of the population of the place where it comes from. They cannot just only give to Houston dance to. He shouldn't like there's just, yeah, I'm the places too small. So you're right about bringing in the choreographer like if they ever do one of these routines without a choreographer from that culture, that's really problematic as it currently stands. I think they're, they're sort of doing the best that they can in terms of the assignments, I think, and to go back to the same conversation, we have about African jazz every time because this is like a really. It's like one of my major pet peeves with the most recent seasons is Sean Cheesman is African jazz, not to like hate on a Canadian choreographer because Sean Cheesman is ours. He comes from. So you thinking dance, Canada. But like there's more and to say it again, there's more to African jazz than this like weird tribal nonsense and the earliest African jet, the first two African jazz routines ever on the franchise. We're on the Canadian one. One I believe was Sean Cheesman routine, and the other one was not, but they were like African jazz music and African jazz movement, but they were storytelling that was just, you know, the same way that the Bollywood storytelling works, which is a lot of just like boy meets girl girl is wearing pretty skirt and they dance and they dance in the style of the whatever. But they don't have to like adopt these elaborate traditional costumes, I think is the traditional nece more than anything. Yeah. Like if they were to dress the way two thousand eighteen person into he might dress dressed the same as two thousand eighteen person probably in Michigan similar like. Everybody's heard dressing dresses, but the I think it's the traditional side of it. And I think that there is a way maybe this is also disrespectful hard to say. I think just doing what the choreographer tells you is probably the best thing to default to because we do have an expert on the scene, but like there is a part of me that wants to do that sort of the African jazz that we had the first few times in Canada, which was just like, here's some African jazz moves. It's going to be to set to African jazz music. It's gonna be fun and you're not gonna put like we're driving stuff on it. It's just gonna be dancing. I mean, and the other problem with that is that like African jazz doesn't exist. That's not a thing Africa's a gigantic plays. Like, I think what they mean is perhaps South African jazz. I'm not sure I googled this before. I've looked into it in terms of like what African jazz style even means, and it doesn't exist. Google Africa. Jazz dance. Everything that comes up is. So you think you can dance because it's it's not anything. It's reductive, and it's just like a blanket term for whatever African inspired jazz movements they want to do because like African dances, so diverse and has such a such a long in gigantic history of that, like to reduce it to this competition dance show for a two minute routine. You kind of have to make up this like extremely reductive phrase for it. So anyway, at least to Huston dance exists, at least that's a thing that they didn't make up. So that's good, but maybe that's worse. Right? Because it's easier to get it wrong. If it's your offending actual like a specific group of people as opposed to just like African jazz, which is like who no one's going to be watching that and be like, oh, they're like mutilating my my specific dance style because it's not a real dance style. No one would ever say I'm an African jazz dancer, you'd say, I guess if you are a jazz dancer from Africa, someone might say that anyway, the whole to heed thing. I again, I don't know what they answered it. This is it's certainly not just cutting out diverse, choreographers and styles of dance. The reason I hated this routine was that like it is it's cringe worthy to watch. I just don't like to watch these people do this routine. It makes me uncomfortable. Do you feel the same way when they do Bollywood. Kinda. Yeah, a lot of the time I do this just felt so late. I don't know the way that Jensen's hair was teased and like. Look silly really leaned in cost you so much of it. That's like so silly in a way that Bollywood can be uncomfortable in a similar way, but doesn't seem as like a Daesh Asli ridiculous because they look like very beautiful while they're doing it in like makeup that they might normally wear, but then a different outfit rather than just like this absurd hair and like, you know, not that not that it's absurd for that culture, but on Johnson, it looks absurd, right? Maybe? Yeah, maybe I mean, again, and this is this is tricky and I'm sure that if we, if we have any to Houston listeners. Please let us know. I'm very interested in, you know, it's so hard to, I think we do as liberal white women fall into this trap. A lot of being like it would be offensive to me like, I'm assuming it's, we don't know. We can't tell what you're going to find offensive. I'm sure he shouldn't. People do not have a consensus on how they feel about this dance if they saw it at all. So like I, I, you know, it's hard to say whether making it less authentic would make it better. It sounds like at least for you, it would make it more palatable. I at least like tone it down. The only thing that I can really come up with here and this is obviously not the same because Judaism is not a racial identity. It's a very different thing. But if they were to do some sort of. Typical traditional Jewish style of dance. Let's say they go totally crazy, and they do like the bottle dance from fiddler on the roof or something. I think that that would be like fine. They're bringing in Jewish prayer physically and different thing. I really don't want them to be wearing stars of David's and fake beards and curls that would be more offensive to me. Well, those are those are totally different things though. Right? Yeah, has like they would be wearing the beards, and I don't think the curls are historically accurate to the fiddler on the roof, but like they would do some form of that they the stars of David or a whole other things. Well, not not necessarily the truck summating the look of Jews there approximately like recalling a specific moment and Tugay. But what I mean is, is the beard and the, you know, the or whatever. Like I think that it would be more offensive to me if they were trying to replicate how quote unquote Jewish. People look in the same way which is replicate how to Huston people look right? Which is why I think that this conversation is significantly more black and white on dancing with the stars Disney week because what they're doing, it's not about the style of dancing. It's about the character that they're playing and they're dressing up as a pretending to be a person that they are not. I think you can or you should be able to and I and maybe this is this is wrong when it comes to dance. I'm not sure. But certainly with African jazz with Bollywood you can dance those things without needing to be someone from that culture. And I think that anyone who's interested in those first couple African jazz routines that are sort of what I think they should be Google, Lisa invasive, which is spelt like Vincent. African jazz and it'll take you to that season one from. So you think in dance Candida routine. And it's just it's just people participating in something. They're not pretending to be anything. They're not. But, but it's possible that in order for you know, there's also certain dances. I'd have to go back and watch this to Haitian thing, but like there are certain dances where like the costume elements are part of the dance. And like when you bring in like Hulu and things like that, there is a thing you have to wear when you're doing. Hips may may very well be a part of it. I think the hair and makeup is not an, especially in like the African jazz when they do like the Red Stripe over there is like, all right. I mean, African jazz, the tribal thing. That's a whole other. Honestly, I am so over Sean Cheesman I'm sorry. My mom is a crush on him. It's like a whole thing. I, I can't. I can't with him anymore. And I, we've articulated this particular thing. We are. So on the same page about African giants, these specific tribal approach that Sean Cheesman takes and how that is reductive and stupid. Let's move on from Tahiti. Yes, I want to. We haven't talked about jonoski at all, and I do just want to commend her particularly on her hip hop because I think that she is one of the people in the top four. That was definitely not as strong a dancer as Hanna lay or or Johnson, but she was able to, in my opinion, blend into a style that was not her own, and I would always forget that she wasn't a hip hop dancer when she was doing these routines. Yeah. I mean, I also think she was surprisingly good at Latin ballroom. Yeah. She, yeah, Genesee was fine. And Genesee was not. She didn't have any performances that were actively terrible. She was quite I would. She was. I thought she was a well rounded, mediocre dancer meaning that like even her, I don't think her contemporary was that much stronger than her hip hop or her Latin ballroom, which is a huge compliment to her hip hop in a Latin ballroom and an honest knock on her contemporary because like it should have a needed to be stronger. I don't think Jesse should have made the top ten to be honest. I don't think she, I mean, if anyone disagrees that she shouldn't have made the top four, I really would like to hear why that said, if Slavic made it into the top four, I do like the Genesee went to one because I like the idea that if three women get the most vote. Three women get to go through. That's nice. At the top at the beginning of the top ten, if I'd known that was the rule, I would have been like, great. Let's do a top four of all men because the men were so much stronger. This. This. But. I like the idea of three women, one men how it didn't matter. And I love that they didn't bring it up and brag about it and do a whole like, aren't we aren't. We so evolved? They just let it be. That and and they were there because of each other. They were floated through the vote because. So you think he has loves to pretend people are couples and loves to talk about chemistry, and they love a story where contemporary female dancer helps out a. Hip hop guy interest of his technique and the hip hop guy brings the confidence of the contemporary girl up and makes her like own her, whatever, right? They love that story. It's a cute story connects with audiences. I like that he and her reaped the same amount of benefit from that. It wasn't just her him going along and being the star of the show and her getting left behind. So if it was going to be unfair, it was evenly unfair, so fantastic. Unfair, just like wrong. I think that I agree that Genesee is not particularly memorable dancer. I do think that she's a really great performer. I think that she stood out in a lot of the group routines, particularly that kind of like glow in the dark top three girls routine where they huddle. I hated that. I don't really like that routine either, but I think that Sheila fake dreadlocks. Oh, my God, murder me now particularly like it. But I do think that she was the best in it, which the fact that she could be any routine and be to me either just as good or or shine brighter than headland Johnson is definitely appoint for her and sells me more than anything on her being the top three. But yeah, from from a purely dance standpoint, she was not at the point of Johnson or handling, but she was better than Slavic. So there's that everyone was better. Look on a personal level. I did like slumming. I thought he was very good week one. If we, if we had podcast every week, I would have said after the first episode, the first live episode that he was starting to win me over that ended fairly quickly. I will say, I thought he was super cute when he got his hair all slicked down for. But like he, you know, una personal. He was very winning. He was he was sweet and he, he tried really hard and he was cute as a button, but he wasn't a very good dancer in a season. That was like really like, we cannot overstate how strong this. There was six people or something like that in this season who could have won another season. This was a really strong season of dancers, and we ended up with the dancers who were fine and would have ended in the middle of the pack on another season and something just went around with the vote in ended up being a mediocre, I dunno, it just seemed like a weaker season than it was because the wrong people went home at the wrong time, and it made me sad and that sort of wrapped up in Slavic. It's represented by Slavic, which is too bad because he's a sweet kid, and I don't want that to be his legacy and I don't want him to have to carry that around the way that like who sin giant. It became this like stand in word for when this happened. Yeah, he seems like a lovely guy. I hope that he and Genesee remain friends. They seem to actually really like each other. Yeah, I love like great partnership stories. Yeah, I am. I am a sucker for that. Like I love a good catch me when I fall thing and with dancers its littoral, which cute. Money. I am a sucker for that story and though I do not vote in this show. It is not. However, what I've out for. Yeah, for for the dancer, I like, who is not insufferable just a couple of other routines that I wanted to just briefly touch on here that I had thoughts about on feel free to jump in. If you have any others, I just wanted to get your thoughts quickly on that yummy grouper teen. The one where what's yummy, it's Remmel Emma, bang. Bang meets call me mother. Like they're all kind of steam punk outfits. I did not know what to make of this, and so I wanted to get your take on it. Yeah, I had zero thoughts except that looks familiar. Yeah, I watched it and thought, oh, my God is way is Wade. Robson back. I was going to be thrilled, and then I was like, no, no, no, this is Mark camera. It wasn't. I can't even remember who it was. Probably just Mandy. Actually, no, that's not fair Mandy. Actually, I think was the choreographer of the season. This opening number which was the worst grouper teen I've ever seen, which I understand. It was just kind of to like introduce everybody again, but it was like the. Mid high school musical act one the Macy's day thing. I enjoyed that. But that's because I'm like a real sucker for that. It was like triumph, e, we'd like balloons and things, but that's just that. Yeah, that was just like simplistic video dancing. It was cute, but like it was really not dancing. The yet? No, she Mandy. I just think is like a really interesting personality. I love that. I think she, she's just she's a cool lady. I think she she does a number like she just some really good routines. I loved Jensen. The fools rush in routine, which is not. That's not what that song's called, but like it should be called. Was that the she was wearing a gray top. Her hair look really pretty, and she danced with Robert and it was to the, you know. You know, I can't help falling in love with you. It's called and that was a major chain. Like I thought, just like generally through the season, she was really strong. I mean, everybody's also same z. all the time, but this. Yeah, this, this opening routine, the Rama Lama, whatever. So it was. It was Luther just so weird will. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing it and being like, and then he was like, it's Luther Brown when, okay, Luther Brown even I usually love him and he did a couple of things this season that we're fantastic. I love that yellow coat routine. I really liked Slavic and Genesis opening vans. But even him like those little like Nigel always likes that weird, slow movement thing he does, and he does like a slight variation on it in every routine now because Nigel always makes a big deal about it. It like the old man, Walker, whatever. Even I think everybody and maybe illustrated by this routine that looked identical to previous routines. Yeah, was come on guys and especially watching it all in two days was a mistake because this I, you could you can copy and paste it all. And that's not something you notice so much. Waked binge-watching network sitcom, you don't know if you really checking in on at once a week at the pleasant thing to do with a half hour. But when you try and binge-watching you're like, what on earth? This is the same episode over and over and over again. Like I watched all of bones and like two months and has certain point I got. I was down to an eight, an eight minutes. I could identify the killer. Yeah, I just wanted to bring up routine because it's something that I should like like everything is there, but I wanna hold hold people accountable when it's so obviously recycled that I just like this doesn't. It didn't seem like they're Brown's voice, and then I want to jump to a more positive one because I think that we would be remiss if we went this whole time talking about not talking about Marco and then episode that Marco was, what did you think of his handle as routine? Oh, I thought it was fine. It was lovely. It was cute. I rewound just to see him. Yeah, because I love him. That was it though. It was it was it was very sweet. They looked great together. Poor Marco is so small that we, it's only the handle as of the world. But like when they just they just fit so nicely. I just needed to gosh, about Marco for a second. I love to that routine. Here's a an important potentially controversial question. Did you feel about the Mia Michaels flowered ads from way back in the day? No, it was on this season. She did a an opening number and everyone was like in flowers. Oh, the one with Al. Look like the Russians. There's something do you think would look like white things covered in flowers, and it was. Hours in the air and they were doing it was to classical piece that was like about flowers. Well, it was kind of like a character routine, right? Like it was kind of like a folk dance. I just thought it was the silliest stuff. It was like all prancing and like jumping, but not like cool jumps like little like leafy. I don't know I, it was I literally giggled the whole through the non looking giddy way and like. So I not trained in character at all. So if I'm completely wrong than somebody correct me, but I thought that this was an approximation of folk dance. Which does look silly if it's not done particularly professionally, did they say it was her know noticing that I, I'm just guessing that this was Mia trying to do that. Because that's what Mia work for the Joffrey like isn't meal, like an honest to God, real person choreography. Oh, sure. I just think that these are not honest to God, character dancers, and so it looked weird on them. I thought she worked for the Joffrey. I feel like if she does the night just need come on me. I was really excited to have her back. I love her. I do know that she she's like a very real choreographer in my opinion. But yeah, it was. It was silly and I forgot about it until you just said that. And yeah, because it's just I, it feels big to me when they bring back really the oil. I mean weighed when they brought way back for that one episode that was felt like a big deal. But like no one is like Mia, like it's a big event for me when me is going to be on the show was so still turned up from having Brian Friedman back. Still lit. What did you think of Jenas routine. John is routine in already forgotten. Just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about Jetta who by the way, just announced today. It's going to be Joe. The grocers partner on dancing with the stars grisly star. Joe. They, they like she just wants or they're like, we're going to give her someone who definitely can't end, but someone who will definitely get votes for a couple of weeks. He. Yeah, that's true. He'll get, he'll get through for a while, but he'll he'll go in the middle of the pack where some like real dancers on this seasons. Tanaka deserves better. In life. Anyway, I don't. I truly remember Jonah's routine like say, don't remember it at all ages Renault that she did one hard to remember all of the different ballroom routines in general. For me, they do look seems the, I think I want wanna say it was. It was KiKi was definitely KiKi. And I was just overwhelmed by Kiki's boringness and numb, just how he makes me feel. Jensen, KiKi Jensen and KiKi and I'm sure. Great. I'm sure it was not. I will things the bulb the Hanaway and I think it was handling in coal that that Sasha and. A was it shot that that like I'm always really impressed when someone choreographs a ballroom routine that stands out. Although Emma also did a g or no, not MS. Sharona who I adore finally came on dancing with. So you think he'd dance and she did a jive and that was all sorts of fun. Yeah. That was actually, that was probably my highest Slavic moment of the year. Was him doing Sharma's jive thought he got his kick flick thingies in well, and just looked adorable and Sharona and a little jive? Yeah. Generally, it's really impressive when someone does a ballroom routine that I love there was not a lot of ballroom this season, even though there were a lot of ballroom people in the finale in the finals. Yeah, but there was a lot. I was Jenner a lot of ballroom inserted into other categories if that makes sense. Like even stuff like JJ and Lauren froder men's jazz routine was like weirdly so many lake lifts and stuff, which I know does not ballroom make, but there were like ballroom elements in it, and I felt like there was a lot of that in contemporary too. I mean, I don't. I don't know that I saw that, but I did now that I'm reminded of that. I really liked that routine. I life teen too, but it's like we have to honest to God, jazz dancers, and it wasn't really an honest to God. Jazzar teen wasn't that the one where Mandy was like I'm bringing jazz back, but it was jazz as a whole, but is jazz though really. There were certainly jazz like shapes in that routine. But there was also a lot of like what looked like kind of an advanced version of the Pulp Fiction dance with. Not necessarily. I would call jazz. Oh, but you know the people on the set of Pulp Fiction. We're like, this is. Yeah. I mean, it's something that like I don't know what else I would call it, but it's not necessarily what I would want like to professional jazz dancers to me when we're trying to show exactly what jazz is there were any jazz runs where what the, what was it? You said, what was it? You said there were jazz like shapes. The whole shows approach today up could be summed up in that third dance link shapes. Why dance, but it sure looks like it. There was a lot like running and emoting. Yeah, like jazz music was playing and. So much of this show is like they pick a song and that song is in the right Sean Brennan. Thanks salsa. We don't need to do. Is always just like here is a dance to Broadway and Broadway. We'll say Broadway was particularly atrocious this season, just like, oh yeah, the legs. It was the worst. First of all is a great standalone song that has no business being in cabaret was inserted only for the movie version makes no sense in the narrative that said, great song, ridiculous routine, Travis get the hell out of Broadway. What are you doing? A hated everything about it. I even hated Jensen Sayer and I never hate Jensen's hair except for TC Tahiti, but like I'm pretty sure I wore that exact way in my high school production of the drowsy chaperone. When I was playing drowsy chaperone, you know, that show started at the Toronto fringe festival. Wow, it's so good. But it is. I was supposed, I went to the to see it on Broadway and was seeing the original cast was so excited to see Sutton foster and she got she was under study that happened to me when I saw legally blonde. With lower Belva, India, shoes, undecided. Honestly, most of the time I don't mind under studies. I often have found quite a few times that they're better because it's like they're real. They're big shot. Totally agree. I've seen a couple of people who've gone on to be pretty big when they first we're getting their breaks doing understanding which was like cool. But when you go specifically to Sutton foster and I've seen Sutton, I've had tickets to see sudden foster, I think, four times and I've only seen her one time. Though I interviewed her at AT x. so we're all good. Just one one. Quick note on this before we get too far on our Broadway tangent and lose everything. I my best under study experience was that I saw next to normal on Broadway and Jen domino was out, and I was so devastated because I'm like thirteen and want to see the person that I've heard on the soundtrack. The under study was Meghan Fe star now of the bowl type. And I love that. I saw her when she was thinking shy. She's Sutton type. Yeah. Oh, I was not super impressed with her at AT x, and we'll say, are you should be however, who was frigging chicken the world, Meghan Fay has one of my favorite singing voices of all time. She was on the recording of the unauthorized autobiography, Samantha Brown, which never made it anywhere but has music, but okay. So I don't know that show at all, but my all time favorite YouTube video eventually went. No, Jeremy Jordan's with me because first of all, that's an amazing song and Josh young does it on his solo album and it's beautiful and whatever. But Jeremy. Jordan has a recording of it. I believe at fifty four below and he screws up the opening and he has to start over and then he does all of those lines two, like let me catch my breath. This is really hard. I'm not good with words like all those Leary. He does them with this sort of like wink to the audience leg. Like he messed up the word, the ready and it's the cutest most Jeremy Jordan ish thing. And I love him. And if you ever want to window into my soul, run away with me, Jeremy Jordan. YouTube, go right now. It's my favorite thing from what were we talking about? We were talking about handle in Johnson's horrible Broadway tea and. Jesse jackson. Oh my God. All right. Sure. Yeah, that's because then try. This was like n. Genesis going to be the star and he thought he was so clever because like obviously Jensen's the star in Genesis, the person who's like in the background, trying attention. I didn't even remember enough to remember which to that was no. And he was proud of himself for making Genesee the star and like really stretching her. And I was like, all right, okay. From you. Well, this, those transitions into the last routine that I wanted to talk about, which actually is hand land Jetson, which is there don't touch my. We've routine that I have thoughts and also feelings about do really, yeah. Those other ones. Hated their hats and with my only thought on the entire I, these were the wrong two people to do this for almost any other two people could have done this. I should have loved everything about this routine, and I did not was this Brian Friedman. Yes, that's right. I think I think we know the song featuring rupaul. It's a great song to do routine to their great outfits. It's a great concept. I like the pulling off the ponytails. These are just like not the girls to do it. I just did not feel good watching this. I wanna see like Darius and like, I don't know, maybe Genesee somebody with attitude. I wanna see doing this routine. These two are so clearly faking it and turning it up and pretending to be drag queens and it's just not is not what I wanted out of this routine. You know who you wanted to see this routine, jasmine and Robert. The payer got eliminated. I last year. Yes, that's exactly why I wanted to see to retain that in. It's not. Okay. I want to make clear that this is not something that it's just because like O'Hanlon Jensen are sweet. So they had no possible way of pulling it off. I think like obviously, that's part of it, but like Jenna Johnson did a similar thing to this with Mark camera in my favorite routine of all time. It's the same type of demeanor and that's required and she pulled it off. And I don't think that Jenna is in any way shape or form like cooler than any of these two. She's a really good actress though. Yeah, and that's what that's what it is is that I think that it was possible for hand land Johnson to pull this off and they did buddy police clock. I just complimented Jenna. Yes, you did. Well done. We're all branching out here. I've, I've complimented Jensen. It's all happening. You win. Was. Is a great dancer, an undeniably deserve second. Fair. I sure she deserved second place to Darius. That's also true. Does she didn't? She deserved fourth plays after Darius and JJ, and finally. She just, she's good, but I don't know. I feel like you can find a handle at any good, decent studio anywhere. Yeah, but it's a dance competition, and she's a really good competition dancer. Anyway, I just think that this is a routine that I could love so much and could be like an all time for me because it's so my alley that it makes it so much harder to watch because I just want to see it with two people who really kill it. Like so bad. I'm trying to think of like, who would be like my completely ideal. I think jasmine and Robert are definitely up there or even like, yeah, now they've got jasmine in my head. That's exactly why this routine like her and another girl. That would be fine. It doesn't have to be a guy in it it. It just seems so distinctly rooted in drag and these girls are not, and pretend to be. Yeah. That's what it is, but it's it's a great routine. I like the, I thought the hair thing was cute and I like the outfits and that's that's what I have to say about it. Sure, yeah. Yeah, that's fair. I didn't have strong feelings about this one, but I don't have strong feelings about the world or the song or bring any of that. Bring in misl- is strong Java too. Eliminated. She got eliminated like she made it to the last day of all. Also immerse she was competing as a man. Yes. So right after her for her first initial audition was in drag. But after that she was like specifically competing as a man. I believe shoes dress shoes, mail presenting when they did that big grouper tea and where she's in the jazz group. Yeah, and she was very good. Well, that was actually something we talked about in the first episode. I don't believe we addressed in the second. Sorry, we're repeating ourselves. That that was a whole thing because they eliminated choreography where like I was pretty sure that guy had like significant dance training. So I was really happy that we, at least though they didn't make it super far. We got to see that and he got to prove it. And he like yen. Nigel was not enjoying his drag performance and we can read into that all sorts of issues. But like the fact that I believe it was Vanessa and twitch stood up for her and said, I believe that this person can do more side of this style and outside of costume and all that kind of stuff. And then we actually got to like they made it pretty far. They actually got to prove that he made it through radiography round. Yeah, I think that was because I think it was quite clear that he did up training. I did not like he had to talk Nigel into it. Speaking of an Esa who after that I. Sewed though. You know, she's a crazy person. We were like, it's really important that she's here. She's standing up for certain people. She's a little bit more open minded. I this season. She really decided she was going to stand up to Nigel, which I loved in the live shows. She's just a Kuku bananas nonsense person, and but twitch. He was bringing it. He stood up to Nigel the thing where Mary contradicted Nigel and everybody contradict Nigel. And Nigel did the like August to have my opinion that was like fully gist, insulted the choreographer or dancers could have done. Yes, I'm fairly certain. It was, and it was like, and that was a moment. We're mayor Mary really stood up for herself in Nigel. Did that like ridiculous. I'm the dad thing where he's like, because I said, so I'm in charge. My word is fine. It really made me a really boiled by blood, but I love that she stood up to him, and I think that. Which to defend tastic job, especially as a new panel member, especially with the inherit power, dynamic of having been a contestant and owing his not only his entire life, not just. Marriage? Yeah, like his literal entire life, like the story on twitch and I loved seeing his addition in this finale he was going to have his dad was going to make him join the navy if he didn't make it on the show. So like Nigel handed him because his career, so the fact that twitched so consistently through this season stood up to Nigel said his piece felt free to disagree loved having him on the panel gotta say after that first episode where she was super necessary. Vanessa did not really carry through her promise of being necessary every single comment. Oh my God. I love you. It every time. Air. Oh my God, my absolute favorite was I just have to say this really important. Okay. There. It is. Literally or like there was so. Dul without the talent or career tobacco being Paula Abdul, except for Greece live everyone except for amazing ingred line. Yeah. Live though, do you think Hannah lay is going to get a line in red, or is she just going to be in the chorus the way that Blake from season one is in the chorus of the movie version? Absolutely. No way. Analog lines. She at best does a like Ariel during love you Bowab for some reason like, yeah, this is really, really, really not a dance musical, like unless she's gonna play me me. She's not going to like there is like the cute little hand and head dancing in lovey boa some ten in Tango, Maureen, but that's only for named characters. I guess they have like backup dancers sometimes stage it, yeah, but like it is who I mean, there's a thousand reasons. FOX shouldn't be doing rent the live musical housing. So many. But yeah, she's there is nothing for her to do in that. Yeah. I mean, look, I would so much rather see her in the background of ever seeing the Jensen just for a race issue rent is. Yeah, I think just the way that the. I don't know what make up. You're gonna put Johnson in to convince me that she is a living lovey Boheme with these people. Well, unless you got around person at the party where there will always be women and leather flirting with me because she would fit in there. Well. It depends. All right. Because like there's always like, yes, there's the Mimi side of people living lovey him, but there's also the Mark side, and I feel like Jensen really can lean into the Mark side. The lake privilege suburban side ran away from their parents, their parents. For crates and urban Hanukkah or whatever. 'cause marks the like for Christmas Jensen? I'm living at my dance dreams in New York's stop calling me. I'll be like play. Just imagining Johnson as Marta. She's playing Mark in my Oxley I have. There are two pieces in the theatrical canon that I strongly feel are done the same way every single time as a lot of things are and strongly feel would be really benefited from taking all of the characters, stripping them entirely. One of these actually have character descriptions, but taking them throwing them in a bowl and just like casting whoever the hell with regard with no regard whatsoever to the traditionally cast race or gender of the characters. Because like there is no reason why Mark can't be a woman in terms of like not just played by women, but I can actual female character. And that could unlock some fun things in rent. The other one is twelve angry men because just why not it's great play, but you can't do shows with just twelve white men anymore. It's so boring. I do think that there are characters in rent that should. I mean, Mimi has specific lines that alludes to her at the city. Oh, certainly you'd have to. You'd have to like, do some interesting editing and like every everything has like once you change one too, because also like if Mark is a woman, then we're throwing Maureen and JoAnne into that's different now, because what kind of you now JoAnne needs to be a man in order for that story of like what to work, it's just Cobley. Yeah, everything gets thrown up into the air and it would require some like actual retooling. It's not just a super simple fix, but I do think that I'm bored of seeing like every single person be played exactly the same way every single time. Yeah. That is fair. I would have liked to see. The Hollywood bowl. One, I really liked that cast. Who was it again? They're like. A lot of kind of like not like telly long was in it. If you know who that is. A lot of people that I know from like being on telly lung in rent. Yeah, in Hollywood Bill, he was angel. Nobody thought he was in rent on Broadway at some point, but maybe I'm wrong. Not that I'm aware of. I know him from God spell. He's allowed now, but he was angel. And I think that that is a really strong choice and Wayne Brady was Collins and that one. A lot of people whose voices I really like, but haven't like start in a lot of Broadway shows. Interesting. Like those people who are like sneaky singers, like how Jake Gyllenhaal, Wisconsin Assan time. And everyone was like, no way that'll work. That'll be like Johnny Depp doing us on time, and then everyone listened to the clip and they're like, oh, no, actually he's allowed to do Santorum. That's fine. Huge news. Vanessa Hudgens was Mimi and the production that I'm talking about. That's what I was. I was. I was really sure that was that was true and I was waiting for Uniprix it up. It was more thinking of. I was just thinking of Angela Collins, but also skyler Austen as Mark whose voice I love. He would be a lovely Mark. It's people, but like I've listened to it. And so I really like it because it's a lot of people who just like specifically the tone of their voice appeals to me I did for Vanessa was I love? Well, I mean, first of all, there is nothing about Mimi that. Actually, she, I don't know how great an actress she is in mimi's a really hard acting role, but like Vanessa can really see. I don't know why she's on the dancing show. She's definitely a terrible judge, but she can say, I'm so we're fine with that. Skyler asked him does have one of those. I'm a sucker for tenor and he has one of those really sweet Creaney tenors that, like I wait completely disproportionately to the actual quality of the movie or the soundtrack, but I listen to that original pitch. Perfect. Senator all the time. And like Ben Platt doing a magic in me and skyler acid and just doing anything and that the pool mash up of. What's that? Bruno Mars song and everybody was on. Yeah. Yeah, so good. But yes, Schuyler Aston he's one of those people like listen to sing for ever me as well. So we've we've gone an a lot of Broadway directions this time. Hopefully people who listen to this podcast still expect that of us do, but we just do. We can't into stripes and that is the last episode anyway. So what are you going to do? Stop listening, Stu, whatever. We want. So is there anything else we, that's a that's a wrap on the season misleading dance. We have a new winner in the pantheon. Is there anything else you want to touch on before we wrap. I want to touch on fiction and how he calls himself a former winner of the show and always leaves out the fact that he was a co, Amy would have beaten him. Yup. That is true Expedia people we saw in the audience a lot. Did you see that Lindsey was sitting with Jordan Fisher when week and the crowd. I miss that just come to them for like a second one mentioned Lindsey, and she's sitting there with Jordan. I love Georgia. Speeding of people listen to sing forever and never love me. Some Jordan, Fisher. I miss him. I want him back on my screen. So he's going to win. Is dancing stars? Junior, he's co hosting that. Apparently. Yeah. Whose team you see? Yeah, heaven, Frankie Muniz. Those are good choices. Let's run. Yeah, but that must be in the spring because the fall season Joel, the grocer is not a child. I don't think. He is. He's got so much emotional maturity. Don't even make that joke. I was other people from the bachelor verse children. Definitely. Yeah, but not Joe. The grocer, no grossly Sergio's fine. I was always a John person myself. No, no, no, no. But that's because you didn't watch enough paradise. Okay. No, John John, I was like so in. And then when he hooked up with jubilee, I was like, really in because is my all time favorite contestant. She's amazing. The fact that no one ever picks her makes me so mad, and then she never. She gets mad when she gets dumped and she doesn't do interviews ever. So there's just zero jubilee content in my life. Although she did reach wheat, my owed that I wrote her thought that I wrote in two thousand twelve to not twelve, but link when she was on the show which was a long time ago. Now. Anyway, nobody. He, he was just like noncommittal and the sort of like person who kinda like jerk people around, but he doesn't such a like a nice innocent way that nobody notices that he's actually doing some things that are like not the kindest and. NIA. He started to get on my nerves after a while. Even though he was definitely the most attractive, it wasn't the most attractive and but he was like one dateable Hicks. Yeah. Well, no. I mean, I mean, I'm like all in on Joe. The grocer I also I personally deliver them. No, I personally would not pick him. But like Kevin, I think is such a good dude. But yeah, no, John then MO. John's like my tape, my type of those guys, but actual then MO, John, he retired. All right quickly, but eventually anyway, our weekly, that's your bachelor. This is not a bachelor podcast segments. You proud of me for time. Oh Jennifer, Jordan that's like occupying ninety percent of my brain space right now, especially because those are names that I associate with stars. Why Jordan Jordan fishing with dancing with the stars. So you think. So you think. Anyway. I think that that's all we have for you. There was a blooper segment that I absolutely hated because it wasn't funny. Super, not fun time wasting on this finale for season that all we needed was time during the regular season. We had way too much time for those Pinelli I felt, yeah, there was no reason for this to be two hours. Yeah. I also annoys me and I know that they claim they combine the votes, but I've never liked that the top six votes in the top four votes are like the the votes that you get in the top six competition show seemed to just disappear. Yeah, that's always bothered me. They do combine it because Slavic. Got fourth. And that was the week he was like really, really, really bad? Yeah, I think the regardless this was I mean, if I had to rank the top four, this is exactly how it would have been. I I wouldn't be mad at genocea Jensen. Switching. No, that's crazy. I think you just personally don't like I wouldn't be mad at it. Not saying it's from dance perspective wouldn't be. I mean, I can't talk because I think that Jenna Johnson should get last place and things and she's obviously an amazing. Yeah. I mean, I'm if we're if we're ranking to me just by how good they are at dancing. This was the exact order that I would put them in isn't Jenna Johnson. That's her name, right? John Johnson about Genesis Makovsky. Oh my God. If she changes her name from Jan Johnson to Genesis for God's like both funniest thing, I also just like, yeah, someone would like a really elaborate like eastern European name who looks like she's from Utah. I was going to say, isn't Jetta Johnson the name of the person from big brother. Jenna. That's Jen, Jen Johnson, so many different? Yeah, I loved her. She was not well loved by everyone else. She cried over her photo. It's thing anyway. I'm just noting because every time I hear Jena Johnson's name, I'm like, wait, isn't that remembering? Anyway. It's a common name. I imagine not as Jonah Chmerkovskiy. Yeah, I think so. For the season, there's a lot of good dancers on dancing stars this year. There's some people back who I don't glib and whatever. KEO has a good partner. I don't know. It'll be interesting. The Keough has the partner Justice for Keough. No, he has a good. I forget who it is already, but I remember looking it up and being like they gave KEO really good partner. I forget who it is. So also forget who it is. The there were only four people on this house that I even knew who they were by name. I had to look up all the bios. I only knew Joe and Mary Mary Lou. You haven't seen the Harry Potter movies? Yes, I have. I don't know. You said you didn't know of una Lynch. She's with Keough. Okay. Right. Sorry. Yes. I didn't mean to fill. I've seen the mall, yeah, but I've seen the mall except for seven part one, which I quite like is a film. It's in its own right. I've only seen the mole once partly because I think they're super mediocre and partly because I didn't want to like right over the versions in my head because the versions of my head are just like way more interesting than the versions in the film. And I felt if I watched them too many times they would get overwritten although I own most of them now because I'm doing this like giant DVD library project. And I'm so acquiring all these titles even though I will never watch them again, I want to have them. So yeah, I have almost two thousand now which I'm very proud of. But yeah, so I have my Harry Potter DVD's. I'll never watch, but I had to. She was one of the ones who once they read her bio, it was like, oh, of course, I know who that is, but I didn't. I didn't recognize the name. Yeah. Yeah. Which is like most of the dancing with the stars thing for me, never know who someone is. And then to episodes in, of course, I've known who this person is my whole life. I can't imagine a life without knowing who of on a Lynch's. Of course. I mean, she will admit she is one of the few people in the films who I think is really good and may even be like she's allowed. I mean, no one gets overrate the version of my head, but like I would not be that mad if she did. She was very good. Yes, good casting. So that's our dancing with the stars. Started a little. Harry Potter? Yeah, we'll talk about what's the important stuff. We did big brother before getting on the air. So sorry, guys, team Tyler, I guess as long as he dumps. Oh, yeah. Team, slow, March, break, death. Well, I was I was what Tyler one, Haley too. So it was a really hard season. The tensions just been. For everybody who like many do they start going after each other? You're like a line. Haley, but. So that is our episode that is our season. Kelly, what are you have going on that people should check out. Well, okay. So the site has just finished up our summer coverage. So I have all of my Stratford and Shaw stuff up. Those festivals are running through October. If you happen to be in Canada and or mere Canada or want to visit Canada, there's some theater festivals to check out all of that coverage is up there. What else have I did a movie thing recently, we're doing a lot of music coverage right now, and then we're going to get into the fall shows when they start premiering in the next couple of weeks. So that Superfund that's happening on the site. I'm going to get back into the Shakespeare series podcast to be sure to follow my treatment world on. The issue in store and then on social media, at my end world my world and both Twitter and Instagram, and then like hit us up in the comments. I love to reply to the comments and I would like to just because the end of the season gave a small shadow to Jalen Joel, willow Tim and John who are MVP commentaries this year. I love when people come it. It's so nice to talk to you guys. Everyone was team center stage, which I really appreciated and you were right, except that we lost by so so much everybody from team centerstage got wiped out so fast. It was a three to one finale and the last person hanging on with my last draft pick and she still lost. Centerstage that's two losses in a row, but they wanted my heart and it would make me happy that all of our commenters or most of our comforters were team center stage with me, yes, they are. So pretty. Hennelly Darius Chelsea Genesee Slavic. So three of those people were the finale Kelly had JJ, Evan Magda coal in Jensen, a very lovable bun, which like, yeah, other than Darius. I couldn't have cared less about a single person on your team, and I loved every especially because Jensen won we over. I ended up loving my, yeah, my entire team. You had Darius which made me sad, but I was always rooting for him. Even though he wasn't. I believe, if you go back and watch or listen to the podcast, I believe it was like episode two from like last season. I said that Darius was going to be in the top twenty and he was like the greatest answer ever seen in my life. So he's called absolutely stunning dancer, I'll be going back in. I always like to think about the routines that I'm gonna YouTube when I go down a wormhole and a couple of years and Darius routines, I think we'll always come to the top of mind. Yeah, against with Magda and Magnus. Beautiful and wonderful and populus and sunk in love her. Yeah, Magda super on me during the season, but she didn't. She didn't get anything interesting to do, which was frustrating. Yeah, but she was always fun in like the rehearsals and stuff. I was enjoying it. She's like a really dynamic interesting woman, which is why liked her in the first place. Yeah, she's got a great cast photo to. Schuch sassy. All the other ones looked look so posed anyway, I just love that. She like way back to the first time we ever met her. I fell madly in love with her when she was like, Kiki's chew born to talk. I'm gonna talk over him at the time just like the woman after my heart. So all of that is up on my entertainment world dot CA, a, you should check all of that out there. You can find me on Twitter at lead a tweeted and on Instagram, outdated. Graham d- the American injure warrior finale should be out definitely be out by the time. This comes out interesting season. Lots of lots of ups and downs, mostly downs, but you know, we had a great time. We always have fun doing that. I've really sad all my shows end at the same time literally at the same time. So I think dance American enjoy about Sean paradise. All their finale. Exact same time, which is whacky or at least part one of the bachelor in paradise. Finale on Monday. So it's it's all wrapping up. I'm also on a brother, live feed updates that is wrapping up here very soon. And yeah, you can find some of my writing up on my entertainment world as well. And survivor is coming back soon, and I am the score keeper for all of the fantasize or leagues for survivor. So I am your contact person on that. You should go and make a league with four to six of your friends. Fantasize f. a. n. t. s. is e r dot com. It's very hard to spell felt every time I say it, but yeah, do that and pick your players and then yell at me when I get the points wrong. No, don't heal. Elite will yell at you. If you yell at lead. Jomon learnt this the hard way. People have come for me and Kelly has not been here for it. Only Kelly can come for me. I mean, I every week published words for you that I don't agree with. Yeah, one day we're going to see an Editor's Note in their slice will have done that. I definitely did that at the start was like four. The record is wrong of Devon. And then like seven episodes later lead us like fine. I was talking about. But hey, I have been before I was right about Joe Meena. No, I still don't think you're right about. I think he's just got bad, Twitter manners. Okay. So he can't said come for leader, don't do it. Don't do it. I will hurt you. I'm real big guys. I will hurt, you know, that's our parting with them for you for the season. It's one that I wish that everybody would would really adhere to. Don't remember lead. Yeah. And everyone be cool in the comments section all the time. 'cause our commenters are so nice. Oh, that's not true across everything that I put out. Here's it. Here's a thing. Can we get away throughout my list? The people whose names I mentioned, can you go and comet on leaders morning updates or big brother and just like tell show them how it's done. Show the people commenting on big brother content, how to engage respectfully in intelligently online. That would be really helpful because you guys are great at it, and they seem to be confused about how to respectfully comment and criticize in the in the YouTube comments. This being all audio is like the great blessing of my life. I'm sure that none of our listeners are those people. So yeah, we've we've been dragging this out because I'm sad to wrap this up. I love talking about, so I think you can dance with you. I love this show so much. I hope to get back to the place where I love this show so much one day I, it just still brings me so much joy. All these years later we've been watching for. My life now which brought me great, joy, win, JJ jumped over cat. That was good. Yeah, that brought me grant joy as well. That was happy. Anytime twitch talks or reminds me that he exists. That brings me great joy. I just think he's a wonderful person, and I'm so when I think about twitches life and like how so you think you can dance like if all it did even if it had never produced a single YouTube where the video or had never started another career, if just gave twitch the happiness which seems to have. I'm cool with it. That's enough for me. That's enough good. Put into the world. He asked the one I play. It's the quote that I always go back to about, say anything condenses, melody, and Susan one thing if I can inspire one little girl the dance than it will have been worth it. If we can just remember that just twitches life was improved by this show that will be enough, and then twitches going forth and inspiring every Ellen audience member yet every person who watches that show on the Disney channel about weddings. What. Shoe with Allison where they talked about what it was like engagements or weddings or something happening at DisneyWorld. Yeah, I remember now. They're so pure. So weird. No, I twitch. Twitches happiness is important to me. I like to believe. I don't know if that's true. I like to believe things like it brought Travis Danny BAC together or life. They had nothing to do with lexin Taylor's love, but maybe it has something to do in lexin Taylor's. Love. Maybe Genesee and Slavic will fall in love who knows? Don't you're forgetting our favorite couple KiKi and coin. Oh my God. Forgive KiKi in coin. Always forget about it and then, but you know what? To be honest, I, when I interviewed her, I was a little bit like, oh, wow. Like she, she was not the magic. I expected her to be, whereas like Katie was so fun. Yeah, like she was smart and sharpen like really fun coin coin was just like she was perfectly nice, but she reminded me of how like it was suddenly I was suddenly much more aware of how young she is where she just she never came off as lightweight on the show. I thought she was like, really, I don't know. I was I was a little bit what so then the key thing would ever sign he's boring. I don't understand, but whatever it's well, they haven't posted a photo with each other since June twenty. Six. So you never know Lou. I mean, I'm rooting for all happiness for the pretty pretty dancers. How old is KiKi? Do we know that. That I think he is. Yeah. He could be anywhere from like twenty four to like thirty three easily. He's I would not be surprised if he is twenty two or thirty seven. Who can ever be sure. No way, no way we'll ever know because I'm certainly we definitely aren't going to go Bill. It. I, I use all of my googling on this podcast by looking up Dan Kennedy a few weeks ago who comes up when I type DA into Instagram, he's. Oh, so funny. Instagram, who are you looking. Doesn't matter. No one. Okay. Commenters investigate that you. I'm the search and pretend Karen all the time. Dan kennedy. Yeah. What what else do we have to say leader? I feel like we don't have anything. I think we've, we've got an hour forty five. That's probably not a record for us, but. Let's pretty pretty long for as I think you can dance recap. So we miss you so much tweeted us if you want us to do some like other coverage of anything ever. I think that we almost have to do a rent live podcast. We probably trainwreck we can. We can talk more about that. We'll do something if it's not on here, we'll put it on my site because I am in charge of that. It'll it'll be out there and some something musical is that probably she in ury. Really. Do we ever talk Jesus Christ you per star live on here? I don't think that we did. Did you see it? I did, but I've, I don't know that musical well, so I didn't it just one. It just want an EMMY. We'll want to budge on. Got it. I know yet as did Angela Webber, which feels very overdue yet it three different people. Got it. Because of that when I thought that was very funny. Composers or the easiest are the easiest ones for the got, definitely. Most of most guts are composers the app. There's also if you win a Tony, you're guaranteed a Grammy and blah, blah, blah, blah and Miko rent is January twenty seven. So we should be cast for that. Probably pretty soon. God that's going to be a really fun cat. I want at least it should be if you're on that. But hope. They dropped the ball in that cast. That'll be like truly a problem. Because one, there's only one care or no, the women too. So there's there's three characters who I, in my opinion, have actually hard vocals. So and nobody needs to actually be able to dance. So just like give me some people who can act and who are honest and also three. Great. Vocalists please. Yeah, and relatively age appropriate. I don't want the women to be twenty two in the mental thirty. Five. Thank you. Yes, relatively. I don't need the moon, but I need a couple stars. Over. To my God and not too much. Censorship don't. Yeah. Hey. Because they're doing rent and they're doing hair and it's just I don't ever want to her. We can't get. I don't. I don't. I don't know. It's it's literally not possible to do these things on primetime network. It's. Kelly only during this Kellyanne leader needed theater podcast, and we will hopefully get back to you with with content at some point whether here on Kelly's website. But for now, thank you so much for joining us for the season. And for this mega recap now we have to go. So I can talk to lead a better love life off the air. That'll be next podcast. Would you let me do that please? I will do anything for attention. Is that not clear? Oh, my God. No, not like personal on their ability things. No. I will let you sign off. Now you've been trying to sign up for twenty minutes. You love you. All. Thank you for listening and we'll see you in some capacity next time. There's a time and a place for black and white. Like when you're learning to play piano when he won a big do tone cookie or when shopping for a pet zebra. But if you want to attract customers, there's no room for black and white. So go to Staples, Staples specializes in bold hard to miss color printing. And now it Staples get twenty percent back in rewards on color printing from banners to Rochas and copies to presentations, print more color. Save more money at Staples in-store only ends eleven to eighteen restrictions, apply, see store, associate or Staples dot com. Slash twenty back for details. Michael straighten was a little cruise ship dancer taking over social media. People were coming up to me and asking me for autographs. It was kind of awkward, right? It's going to be more awkward now. Today at pre-owned NBC four and then engine moving into a new home in hearing scratching screeching every night inside the walls, hundreds of back. They just took over that. I had no idea warning signs something could be lurking in your home today at five on NBC four.

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