189 AOPA on Warbirds Adventures Case and its Impact on CFIs, Cirrus Safety Award + GA News


Hello again welcome aviation news. Talk where we talk. Generally the ation with news and find tips pilot suit and pilots to help. Keep you safe. I'm extra step today. We'll be talking with a. Oh p general. Counsel just teen harrison and alpa jared allen about a court decision in the warburg adventures case in both its immediate and potential future impact upon flight schools and flight instruction and after the news. We have lots of your e and questions to share last week. In episode one eighty eight. We talked with eric gunderson about the mid air collision involving a cirrus in metro liner near denver. So if you didn't hear that episode you may want to check it out. And i'd like to ask you for your help right now. Take just a moment to share the show with a friend who you think might enjoy it and then follow up with him or her and suggests that they subscribe to the show. If you're using the apple podcast app. Just look for the three dots at the bottom. Thanks so much for your help this week. In the news a grummin tiger pilot got a big scare when he thought he was being shot at two pilots were fired. After an incomplete preflight inspection that led to some aircraft damage in a helicopter was used an unusual way at a high school. All this and more and the news starts now from. Alpa dot org. This is about the adventures case many. Alpa members have been reaching out to us about the recent court decision to allow an faa emergency cease and desist order to stand against ward adventures. A company that was providing flight instruction in a limited category ward without an exemption for such an organization but decision leaves many questions and concerns on its week. It's useful to analyze the decision from two perspectives. One immediate impacts and to potential future impacts and by the way there was an article published online by major magazine that suggested flight schools and even independent. cfi's might have to get a part one thirty five certificate to teach which would be a substantial burden so to get to the bottom of this. I spoke with. Alpa's general counsel justin harrison ao pa. Attorney jared ellen and you'll hear that conversation later in the show from web dot com grummin tire intercepted by f. sixteens with flares inside presidential t f are f sixteen intercepted a german tiger. That violated a. T. f. r. involving president biden's visit to his home in delaware according to a secret service statement on may sixteenth at approximately one pm. A small aircraft violated the restricted. Airspace in wilmington delaware for standard protocol. Us military aircraft responded. The aircraft was intercepted in the pilot redirected to a local airport. The woman pilot told john martin director of aviation at new garden airport in pennsylvania where he landed that he and his wife were returning home to an unspecified. Newark airport from ocean city maryland and were unaware of the t. Afar barton said both were shaken up adding not only were. They intercepted by. F16's but they thought they were being shot at by the flares that defense department spokesman confirmed quote. The norad fighter dispense signal flares during the intercept in an effort to gain the pilots attention and direct them safely out of the restricted zone. Martin said the pilot was later interviewed by the secret service and flew the tiger home from new garden. The next day martin said this was the first aircraft since biden's inauguration to be intercepted and then landed and fifty seven though. He said the a. told him that there have been between four and seven interceptions every weekend. There is a t.f. Are in that most landed nearby. Chester county airport. Martin expressed frustration over the presidential ours which effectively shut down the airport. He shared some of the same prostration experienced by new jersey and florida airport operators during weekend presidential t afars during the last administration from mlive dot com airline fires. Two pilots after emergency door flew off and insul- bound airplane just before takeoff to pilots have been fired after an airplane. Emergency exit door was ripped off moments before a flight to michigan's upper peninsula. W l you see tv reports that boutique airlines pilots failed to complete a preflight checklist causing the door to open before takeoff. Tomjanovich wakefield's at his carry on bag was sucked out of the opening during a flight from minneapolis to ironwood which would be in the upper peninsula of michigan. Several other passengers also relieved there from experienced during the incident. During a gogo bec- iron county airport board meeting on monday. We're not trying to hide. Or deny anything sean simpson. Ceo boutique airline said during the meeting. W l. you. Uc also reported the san francisco based airline plans to resign from their contract with a gogo. Bec- iron county airport but did not give a reason. Why boutique is the small upper peninsula. Airports commercial airline boutique airlines will continue to provide service until the airport. Find other options. According to the tv station and the story doesn't mention what type of aircraft were being flown. But the website for boutique says they fly both pilatus. Pc twelve and king air three fifties from the air force website at af dot mil washington state patrol pilots successfully test special laser eye protection developed at wright patterson labs and my thanks to isaac alexander who sent me the story you can find him on twitter at jet city star. The story says aiming laser at an aircraft as a federal crime that canetti offenders up to five years in jail or cost them two hundred fifty thousand dollar fine even with us heavy potential penalty laser strikes a become increasingly more common according to the faa sixty eight hundred and fifty two. Such instance were reported in two thousand twenty compared with three hundred and eighty five in two thousand six so far this. Here's of joy lazing up twenty percent over last year. Laser strikes are almost always made at low altitudes. Were aircraft is taking off preparing to lend to parts of flying. That require the most attention from pilot. Most laser eye protection works by filtering out green or red light the color most commonly used in handheld lasers unfortunately according to faa studies in years of pilot. Experience this can change the pilot's ability to accurately read the instrument control panel a twenty nineteen. Faa report suggested. This problem might be fixed. By changing the type of lighting the control panel researchers at the air force research laboratory recently came up with a better solution. One that was successfully tested on the job by washington state patrol pilots according to lab personnel. They use the cockpit. Compatibility design software that they have and they modified it for commercial. Use the commercial version called. Kelly c. a. l. i. for commercial aviation low intensity filters out the laser light. But not the light coming from the pilot's instrument panel simply put they said the lenses maximize protection while minimizing the impact to the cockpit. The researcher explained the during the riots and twenty twenty law enforcement reached out to the community and ask who knows anything about laser eye protection. The seven hundred eleventh human performance wing and the naval medical research unit dayton also at wright patterson all juggled a number of briefings about what is available in the industrial base effects on human factors etc. Most the protection available to the police was the standard issue. Non kelly type however one particular group of aviators in washington state tried the kelly products decided. They were heads and shoulders above the others. One of those aviators was trooper pilot. Tactical flight officer. Cameron iverson of the washington state patrol. Everson said we have some new laser glasses. We were supposed to test out that the airforce had developed. I know we were the first ones to test them. He explained that the aircraft he flies gets around twenty to twenty five laser strikes a year. He said quote we've been fighting about eighty percent of the violators. We can spot the source of the laser light using an infrared camera and then walk other law enforcement officers to the address or location actually apprehend these people unlike the non kelly lenses color. Perception is minimally affected quote. it doesn't distort colors to tremendously bad said iverson. It does darken up white. Making it look more yellowish but your reds and blues even your greens that are displayed on the instrument pal screens still look red blue and green. And he said just last night. We had another two laser incidents in the classes. Worked great well. This is an awesome story. I think for years. I thought that eventually we will find a way to reduce the number of strikes through education of the public. I'm not convinced that probably the long term solutions for pilots to where laser eye protection when they fly at night from duluth news tribune dot com portable music speaker report off floatplane propellers during takeoff at duluth sky harbor airport quote. It wasn't until i sat down and began to fill out the ntsb paperwork at my computer. As i was going to listen to some music that i discovered what i believed it happened. The pilot wrote a portable speaker left on a flow planet duluth sky harbor airport ripped off the plane's propeller last year during takeoff according to the ntsb in its final report the ntsb determined the twenty twenty incidents probable cause was quote the pilot's failure to move an object from the plane's exterior which impacted the propeller blades when he applied full power causing them to fracture damage. The airplane knowing your is were reported and the pilot and his passenger were able to put life jackets on and escape the substantially damaged aircraft before it began to sink in the duluth superior harbor according to the ntsb the pilot of an icon. A-5 fibia airplane taxied on the water before facing into the wind for takeoff and applying full power. About five seconds later the pilot heard a loud bang. You shut down. The engine climbed out of the plane to look back and saw all through the propeller blades. Were gone it is likely that the audio speaker which was left on the airplane struck the propeller blades which resulted in the propeller blades separating from the pillar and penetrating the fuselage. The ntsb said the pilot told investigators. He has not been able to find the speaker since the incident from planning pilot mag dot com survey results. Pilots are overwhelmingly for restrictions on governments use of aid. Esp for enforcement and they talk about a recent survey. The magazine did of whether government agencies should face greater restrictions and how they use a dsp data for enforcement actions. And i think the magazine probably did this survey as a result of the martha lumpkin incident that we talked about back in episode one eighty five which he flew under the bridge story says our first question was a hot button. One quote should the faa have the right to use a dsp data to find examples of violations. That are not otherwise reported to them. And i'm pretty sure there's a typo here on the story. I'll tell you what the story says. And what i think it should say it says our first question was a hot button. One should the faa have the right to use a dsp data to find examples of violations. That are not reported to them. Three quarters of those who answer the survey questions thought that such fishing expeditions should be allowed. And i think they meant should not be allowed and it continues on while just over ten percent thought it was okay in some instances with just seven percent thinking it was just flat out okay and by putting the word not in that would make it consistent with the headline which says pilots are overwhelmingly four restrictions on government use of a dsp for enforcement continuing on but as our original story found. It's not just the faa that's using a dsp against pilots state agencies and even counties and cities are turning to the data as well. Our question should government agencies other than the faa be allowed to use a dsp data for enforcement of airspace landing or other violations a whopping eighty two percent of respondents answered with an no with fewer than ten percent thinking. Such uses of the data should be permissible and seventeen percent thinking. It was okay in certain unspecified incidences asked. Would you be for new. Federal regulations limiting the faa's use of ads before enforcement action against pilots. Eighty seven percent of survey takers thought. That was a great idea. With eleven percent thinking we should leave congress out of the conversation two percent declining to answer so no big surprise pilots would not like to see. Esp used for enforcement purposes from alpa dot org rudder misapplication cited in fetal king air crash. Ntsb determines probable cause of twenty nineteen plunge into hangar. Investigators found no faults in the left engine of a beechcraft king. Three fifty that stop producing power just before the aircraft rolled to inverted and crashed into a hangar. Seventeen seconds after take-off from addison texas on june thirtieth twenty nineteen. The crash killed both pilots and eight passengers on a private flight to florida. So the ntsb has just come out with their final probable. Cause on this. Which essentially says it's pilot error and we'll be interviewing someone in a future episode to talk about the story in more detail in here. Some updates on stories we've talked about in recent episodes. This one comes from w. f. m. j. dot com judge refuses to dismiss low y issue. That's youngstown state university stadium flight case against pilot in a nine page ruling handed down youngstown. Municipal court judge carlo baldwin dismissed a petition to have the case against pilot christopher wilkinson thrown out in november two thousand nineteen authorities charge wilkinson with inducing panic and disorderly conduct after allegedly flying. Single engine cessna. Close to the press box and stadium lights while fans were watching the september. Twenty eighth game against robert morris. Wilkinson's lawyer said it should have been up to the faa to prosecute wilkinson and not the city. The ruling says in part other state courts have found that laws criminalizing unsafe. Operation of an aircraft are not preempted by federal law and in a similar outcome. In a similar story this comes from the east hampton star dot com. David wiesner the low-flying pilot who was charged with second degree reckless endangerment after buzzing sag harbor long island at around five thirty pm on april thirteenth this year in minutes before that areas of springs was arraigned on may seventh in sag harbor village justice court for the alleged misdemeanor. Mr. wisner's ninety day banned from east hampton airport is ongoing. And here's another update massachusetts bill to charge a thousand dollar landing fee to be revised this comes from generally nation news dot com a massachusetts state senator who proposed to build a charge. A one thousand dollar landing feet for virtually all j. aircraft now says he plans to quote extensively revised the bill before it comes before the relevant committee. According to a report by gordon gilbert of aviation news international best state senator initially proposed quote an act to mitigate the climate impact of private in corporate air travel unquote to reduce carbon emissions generated by what he sees as luxury aircraft owned by the ultra wealthy. He said from feedback. I've received from aviation advocates and others about the bill. It's clear that more should be included specifically flights used for pilot training sightseeing tours and smaller cessna airplanes or those registered massachusetts and owned by a massachusetts resident. So we'll keep track of that story and those are updates finally in the news. If you dry it they will come carrollton hs rally to dry baseball field for district play. This comes from kinsey. You dot com in carrollton. Missouri says rain has soaked listening area putting a damper on many high school baseball district. Tournaments one high school went all out to make their field. Playable carrollton high school is the host and number one seed in the class. Three district sixteen baseball tournament since the tournament began. It has been idle due to heavy rainfall in wet field conditions coaches players and administration from chs the carrollton park superintendent and other members of the community work diligently to dry the soaked field manual labor rakes shovels. Atv's and even helicopter used and they include video and pictures of the drying process. And let me pass along our best luck to carrollton. Hi and congratulations for your ingenuity using helicopter. Help dry your baseball field well. That's the news for this week. Coming up next your letters and questions and we'll talk with attorneys from alpa about the warbirds adventure rolling and its on flight. Instruction all right here on the aviation. News talk podcast. Let's go to some of your emails and questions. I used to put these toward the end of the show and at the show ran long i would end up dropping them but i think i'll go ahead and start putting those up a little earlier in the show and see if we include more of them in the future because some of these are just great. This comes from dick in florida. He's a major in the civil air patrol. He says can't tell you how much i enjoyed and learn from your interview with john tagus now. That was episode. One eighty four about a boeing test pilot. Who had an engine out of emergency and how he handled it. He says i sent a copy out to almost all of my pilot in civil air patrol contacts considering the comment on the hemispheric rule in the lower peninsula florida which he said would be basically below the interstate for orlando area. The rule is different at runs. North for even altitudes and south odd. Altitudes never heard that before he says the folks in the florida keys or the conch republic pride themselves on being different. Some visitors might consider them odd. That's how i've come to remember south odd who north even less funny. Thanks so much ticket. I visited the keys a couple times many years ago. And i just love that part of florida and this comes from rafael. Who's also coincidentally in florida regarding episode one. Eighty five and martha lumpkin. He says in regards to his lungs under the bridge. Escapade i have found that many pilots have responded to it with two hazardous attitudes. That we're taught to avoid anti authority and invulnerability makes me wonder how safe we really are up there with so many pilots who selfishly feels. She did a good thing. Adding to london's own impulsivity and another hazardous attitude and just review the hazardous attitudes. We talked about these episode. One fifty four or we talked about a class. B violation in las vegas hazardous. Attitudes are macho impulsively resignation invulnerability an anti authority and some researchers have proposed a six one which is loss of face. Here's some comments from episode one eighty-seven this comes from sherry and oregon. She says i recently listened to your episode one eighty-seven talking about hearing loss while the information given on the show was pertinent. I feel you did not address some important points for pilots who fly with hearing loss one at the first sign of hearing loss. Get a hearing test and get fitted with hearing aids when getting fitted the most important factor is the hearing professional. Who does the fitting real ear. Measurements is a must to. I was hoping to hear some discussion as to how pilots with hearing loss cope in the flying environment. I'm one of those pilots. I set my aides to tele coil only mode and use a light speed zulu three noise canceling headset. Lightspeed earmuffs can fit over my ear and hearing aid i carry a backup pair of hearing aids or h. As in regularly change the headset. you're patting. there are pros and cons to this and other solutions sherri. Thank you so much for sharing this information. Now you use the word teluk. Oil which. I was not familiar with so i went out to. Nc heure loss dot org which is the north carolina hearing loss association. Here's what i learned says. A wonderful feature available on many hearing aids is called the telecom also referred to as a switch or t coil a tiny coil of wire around a core that will induce an electric current in the coil. When it's in the presence of a changing magnetic field which by the way we'd be like speaker tele coil therefore is an alternate input device for hearing aid. Normally hearing aid listens with its microphone. Amplifies what it here is but with tele coil used as the input source instead of or in addition to the microphone the hearing aid can hear magnetic signal which represents sound and it says on telecom equipped hearing aids the where must turn on or switch to tell coil mode by moving a small switch older models to the position or by changing to a program mode by pressing a button on the ear level device or on a remote control that is set up to use the tele coil as an input source instead of or. In addition to the microphones. Some users prefer that only uses the tele. Coil and not the microphones when they are intel coil and others prefer a combination of teluk. Oil and microphones. There is no right way for everyone but there may be a best way for each person it says. Originally the telecom was meant to hear the magnetic signal naturally generated in an older telephone which must be the source of the name tele coil. Who speaker was driven by powerful magnets. This allowed someone with a history of the telephone better if they just turned on or switch to teluk oil as an input source for their hearing aid and now there are many more magnetic sources that can be heard by intel coil equipped hearing aid. Well that is great information. Thanks so much. Passing that along sherry in here are some comments about last week's episode. One eight on the mid air collision over denver from scott in colorado. He says really enjoy your work. Max do we know if the series involved in the mid air was a g five or g six with higher caps a minimum altitude. And yes. scott. It was a twenty sixteen aircraft. Which would make it a five and yes typically people would teach that you want to be at least six hundred feet in the climb before pulling that parachute whereas in the older aircraft which are lighter and have a somewhat smaller parachute. Five hundred feet would be typical altitude. Where people would i consider using the parachute as they climb though. Sarah says that there is no minimum altitude because there may be circumstances we might still want to pull the parachute at lower altitudes and from william in missouri. He says i listened to your show on the centennial mid air. I'm curious about the proper. Go around for the cirrus. Once he realized he was wide on the approach assuming he would figure this out on the base turn does he just continues straight in other words. Continue the base leg contact tower. This would put him. Crossing the approach. Were one seven left. He didn't turn left or right does he. Just hope that there is no one on approach with parallel. Perhaps he did realize he was going to be too wide but the timing was such that there was a plane on his way. And william. what's your thoughts on that. It's an interesting thought. I don't think people often give a whole lot of thought to. What do you do for a go around on the base. A my reaction to that is as soon as one recognize any kind of an issue. We should go round immediately. Add full power and climb and then if you're on a base i would turn parallel to the runways because if you continue on bass as wayne was asking that would put a pilot in conflict with the down wind or opposing traffic on opposite base. So i'm taking paralleling. The runways makes the most sense. I probably then correct to get over. The centerline increase the spacing from any opposite direction. Traffic on the other down win. So those are my thoughts on that william so much for sharing that. And here's comet from kim son. He is a doctor. Who i know here in california and i thought he really has some good insight here. He said as a low time pilot. I think i could have been this pilot the one we are criticizing just recently training for my commercial overshot. The final twice and once a few months after getting my serous. I descended into the pattern in an unfamiliar airport at one hundred fifty nuts because i just passed a mountain range to get to the airport of the valley. I was descending quickly. I was trying to look at the airport and is vr. Only pilot. then. I had no idea of which power attitude would yield which setting. It was only when atc actually hinted that. I was going to fast that. I remembered the standard settings. I'm certain the pilot never intended to fly the pattern at those speeds ever intended to overshoot the runway of course never intended to ram into the metro liner. I actually don't think his mistakes are that rare. I have done those stupid things. That i was just lucky to not hit anything. We humans are. We can general eyewitness the frailty of the human body and spirit every day. Many years ago. Inexperienced surgeon at harvard teaching hospital operated on the wrong leg of a patient. How could that happen. He told me that he had never thought he would make that kind of basic mistake. Just like some of you are currently thinking you will never make six delta julius mistakes and of course i was the series involved in the mid air continues. I hope the pilot recovers well from this traumatic experience that he gets back in the air and try to become a better pilot. I'm sure he's his toughest critic the past few days and i hope we have some compassion for him and welcome him back to the community with our open arms comes on. That is really great message. Thanks so much for sharing that. And yeah i think that You know probably gives all of us Reason just kind of sit and think even as we get more experience we still have to remember that any of us could make a mistake even with some of the basics in aviation and. Here's something posted. On facebook by cirrus see sip instructor. He said i just instituted. A new rule turns to base above traffic pattern. Altitude or below ninety or above. One hundred. ten knots. He said when i have parallel operation so two more runways the down would with target. Which would be the distance. The down one is from the parallel runway of one mile or more. So you don't wanna get too close to that runway. And he said if he's within three quarters of a mile cross track for any runway. You can't have a tailwind on the base leg. Good comments there and here's comment on facebook from david. He says i remember a few years. Back coming back into k. p. o. c. two parallel runways. I was cleared for the left. And the guy in the right to sell it to intercept my final. We were quarter mile apart in both less than a mile from the field hence low and slow and i noticed him. Drifting conclusion situation awareness with palo runways needs to be increased. There are bows out there doing wild things i ended up doing an immediate go around. The other pilot was given a phone number to call scariest moment for me. And here's an email from a cfi in colorado. He says max. I just listened to your episode on the mirrored centennial. I must see if i at that airport at agree with lots of your points from the show. One thing i'd like expand upon is the over. Reliance on autopilot. I've flown with a number of pilots have been trained by c. Sips that are instructing. Their students to use the autopilot in the via far traffic pattern. He says no. I'm not a sip. Which would be a serious standardize instructor pilot. I haven't seen any serious publication where listens encouraged. You are correct on that as we saw with this accident. The autopilot doesn't know what's best in the pic has to be ready to take over when the situation dictates. In the scenario the best course of action would have been go around or starting the pattern of the proper airspeeds my enjoy the show and appreciate all the content and i followed up with Some people at serious about this afterwards and they confirmed what this pilot. And i believe which has there is no guide serious training material to use autopilots in the traffic pattern to me. That's just absolutely absurd. The auto pilot is not going to be the right tool for being able to make your turns to base in final. It just doesn't turn fast enough. So if you're using the autopilots in the traffic pattern cut that out just ridiculous. I in order for that to work. You'd have to be flying an absurdly wide traffic pattern in generally. We don't fly huge traffic patterns so anyway just my two cents on that. Here's an email from hessian new york. He says great job of the podcast. Always i just listened to the centennial episode. I've been following your comments on thread on copa. That's the sears. Owner pilots association. Your nine and ten lessons were very instructive in particular. I'm going to take to heart your encouragement to bank up to thirty degrees in the pattern. I admit i am one of those pilots who use shutler banks mostly because i tend to fly wider patterns and don't need a steeper bank but perhaps i fly wider patterns because i use shallow banks and so overshoot afifi closer. A couple of comments. On the centennial mid air i was going to create the sears pilot with reacting quickly and pulling the shoot but it was interesting to hear your hypothesis shoot deployed automatically because of the impact and by the way they preliminary. Ntsb report has come out in it. It says quote. The pilot report of the airplane was not control after the impact and he deployed the cirrus airframe parachute system or caps in. My hedge continues. Also i think that there hasn't been enough recognition into the metro honor pilot. He was very professional in his voice on the radio. Even collision was very calm. I think he was a credit to the profession. Keep up the great work in the podcast. Also wanted to let you know that i just donated one hundred dollars to the show via paypal. Hey thanks so much. Appreciate that mahesh and fly magazine. Senior editor rob mark. How to comment on the same show. Hey max it's robin chicago. I just wanted to say atta boy. Episode about the mid air at centennial airport. I think their professionalism Yeah well we'll have to wait and see about how that works out because obviously the pilot on the series was not completely in touch with what was going on around him which is dangerous to anybody at any airport But you and eric Had a really good conversation. I enjoyed the the math behind it as well. I think that any pilot. That didn't understand the math. That you were explaining should probably Schedule a little time with their instructor and because that is absolutely important valuable information to now anyway nice job. Keep up the good work. We'll see ya. Thanks very much and now. Here's a listener question from victor amac's this is victim was flying on approach the day with a cessna. One seventy two. J one thousand and selected the borough minimum for the l. nov. Enough whether when it came up we only had the l. mouth so i was trying to reset the barrow minima to the higher of minima but i couldn't find any way of doing that. Seems that the only way to do that would be to reload the approach. Completely which once. You're actually close enough. Then that that's probably not a good idea to be deleting approach trying to re-enter it so i was wondering a missing a trick or is there a way to reset thoughts on not She could offer. That might be of interest to people if you know the way to do that. Thanks very much. Thanks so much for your question. I followed up with victor since he mentioned l. nov slash v navin. There are very few approaches here in the us and by the way. I know it's different in other countries but here we have very few approaches with l. nap slash veena minimums the don't also have l. peavy minimums but it turns out that victor was flying one of those rare approaches and it was the tulsa. Oklahoma are have three six left. Which has l knapp slash veena an l. nov minimums. But no ill peavy minimums now. Here are a couple of important points. I without waas capable. Gps receiver as soon as you cross the intermediate fix the imf or as soon as you activate vectors to final. You need to look at the gps or if you're flying alas last cockpit you need to look at the hsi to see which minimums have been. Unseeded doesn't say l. p. v. does it say l. slash veena. Does it say l. Nafe a lot of pilots don't do this and they'll missing. What victor saw. Which was that. His approach had been downgraded to l. neff minimums which are almost always higher than the l. v. or l. nov slashing minimums. Victor did catch that downgrade but then he wanted to be able to enter the new minimums into a system in many glass. Cockpits you load the minimums when you load the approach so you could go back and reload the approach in her new minimums that way but there are a variety of reasons that you may not want to do that. One of which is you will briefly lose course guidance. By the way victor. If you were to do that you don't need to. I delete the old approach in the garmin glass. Cockpits that i fly in anytime you load. New approach is simply wipes out the old approach. So deleting the old approach. I is just a wasted step. That's unnecessary and really takes up. Valuable time with lewis to change the bureau minimums after already loaded approach. Just push the timer reference soft key-. It's the third soft key- from the right. You'll find that the bottom line of that screen that it brings up allows you to change the birmingham's victor. Thanks again for your question. Hope that helps and coming up next our conversation with alpa attorneys justin harrison. And jared allen. All right here on the aviation news. Talk about cast. Tell you a little bit about our guests. Justin harrison is a as general counsel and corporate secretary. She leads their legal department and overseas. Alpa's legal services plan. She's a commercial rated pilot and flies aircraft ranging from an air cam experimental that she co built to a lear five prior to joining. Alpa harrison ran her own law firm for a decade after serving as general counsel of the nevada cancer institute jared allen is managing attorney for gop as legal services plan and is an instrument rated private pilot. Legal services plan helps members with over five thousand legal matters year in addition to medical matters. Now here's our conversation with justin harrison and jared allen. We'll just seen in. Jared welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us here. Today it's going to be here next rabbits well. There was a recent court ruling that could impact how flight instructors do their business. I understand it led to a lot of phone calls. They're in as i understand it. What the the crux of this is whether or not flight instruction considered a commercial activity. Can you just kind of explained historically how has the faa viewed flight instruction the sure we can do that and max. I think it's important to know that. The crux of this particular case was how can you provide flight instruction in a limited category aircraft so the case wasn't about flight instruction in general it was about flight instruction in olympic at bray aircraft and specifically f. a. r. a. Ninety one three fifteen bat was the regulation that was at focused when it comes to flight instruction which is involved in this case The faa has traditionally said that flight instruction is instruction compensated flight instruction is compensation for the instruction you not for carrying people around and so there are multiple legal interpretations out there and talk about this and there are multiple other places as well and preambles to regulatory promulgation in the federal register. That say this so it was a surprise to us all to have this court decision. Come out it was not about flight. Instruction in general but they were asked to review an emergency order to cease and desist. The court's decision was no. We declined to review it but then they went on and said a few things about flight instruction which none of us expected. And that's what's raised some of the questions. Okay so as. I understand it in the past neither of the student nor the fire was considered to be a passenger during flight instruction. So is that why flight instruction hasn't been considered a commercial operation or common carriage guarantee. You wanna take this one. I know it's a cold that you get frequently in the legal services plan. Yeah absolutely so a few things about this case. As just mentioned you know one of the important takeaways is that this case did not impact one of the regulations which is fourteen sia for one nineteen point one that talks about the types of operations that require an air carrier certificate that rule has always had an exclusion for flight instruction or student instruction and this case has not changed that but as just mentioned after they decided the immediate issue this season desist order. They provided some commentary on the specific rule at issue. This ninety one three fifteen that concerns these limited category aircraft and this specific rule uses basically the word persons instead of passengers. And so like you mentioned. Even though in the traditional flight instructor and students scenario neither of those individuals would be considered passenger here. This rule is using the word person which is why the court said that the operation which was prohibited so i guess instruction is kind of been caught up in this inadvertently villas a little bit about the history of the case. How did this all get started. Sure so this is An interesting case because there was no particular accident associated with this operation. There was no incident associated with this operation. Rather it's something that the discovered is part of their surveillance of different types of operations and as the faa said in their briefs on the case their position was that the surveillance of warburg aircraft. He's limited category aircraft. Started shortly after the twenty nine fifteen upi seventeen crash and according to the faa as part of the surveillance They surveilled an air tour and on that tour was this particular. P forty warhawks aircraft curtis right beautiful airplanes of course and as any beautiful Airplane will it caught the attention of folks around including faa inspectors. Unfortunately and that soon led to those f. a. a. inspectors looking at the operation. What was going on. And it didn't take long for them to take the position that this operation in their opinion of violated this particular rule concerning limits category aircraft There was a lot of back and forth between the faa and the operator of this aircraft. A lot of formal communications with the attorneys. That were all part of this court. Hearing and the court case that the dc circuit heard Ultimately though Those conversations and letters exchanged basically result in the issuing a cease and desist order by dressing mentioned and the faa basically took the position that What was going on with prohibited and without an assurance from the operator that they were gonna stop making these flights they issued the order and then the operator had the unique ability to use a particular statute to appeal this season desist order directly to the dc circuit which is fairly because often times these very Not necessarily conflicts but Unique aviation cases are often heard by say. Ntsb administrative law or they. At least start at that level Or perhaps a dot administrative law judges. I hear however the case went directly to the dc circuit court of appeals kind of one level below the supreme court. If you will and so these judges that heard this case Although they often ear different types of federal administrative matters don't often see this type of faa case. Come before them well. I guess this was an emergency order. my understanding is that apparently the operator didn't stop providing flight instruction as soon as the inspectors told them that that was prohibited. Yes and that's exactly. Why if you look at the court opinion. The judges said the reason. We are declining their three reasons. Taken together they. We are declining to review this emergency order and they relate to the fact that the owner was told by an inspector that you should not be doing this without an exemption but continued and then they got a letter from the f. as chief counsel making it official that the f. as position was to give flight instruction in this limited category aircraft you need to have an exemption didn't apply for an exemption and advertised for a flight instruction in the p forty and so the f. said you were continuing after receiving two notices for from us and so we moved forward and emergency season desist order because you gave us no indication that you would stop doing what you're doing. Well that's fascinating so you're saying that essentially it's common to get exemptions to give training in these types of aircraft but the operator shows not to do that and that's what all this correct now. The operator did have some some reasonable arguments for why he believes in exemption wasn't needed but the fact is there are many exemptions that are out there and the court specifically said you could have gotten an exemption and you never revived for one. Okay so i guess it pays to listen when the faa suggest you do something yes but just because they suggested doesn't mean that that is a requirement that that's the law but when you disagree with the faa you ultimately have to have somebody be of final determinant of what you can and can't do and in this case it was the dc circuit court of appeals. And unfortunately they didn't come out with the answer. That airman was hoping for well. It sounds like in some way. They didn't come out the answer that the faa was hoping for the faa perhaps been happier if they had just denied to review it but hadn't added these extra comments that they made about flight instruction. I think it would be a lot simpler if that's what had happened and we were at first optimistic. Seeing it was a two page opinion. Because you can't have that much extra language and if you paint opinion but unfortunately there were a couple of sentences in there that that didn't catch her retention of caused some concern and ended up with the f. Eight you ask what does this. Impact flight instruction in general or does it or how does it. Impact flight instruction in limited category. How does it impact flight instruction in other categories of aircrafts and we're waiting to get those clarifications. So what are the possible outcomes. I mean it sounds like it's kind of a a naughty situation that the faa now has to kind of figure out how to undo this. Gordon not what are the possible outcomes. While i do think it's important to note first of all the definite outcome and that is that if you are the owner operator of limited category aircraft and you want to receive flight instruction in that aircraft. Then you're going to need an exemption from the because that's something that this decision makes very clear so likewise if you're a flight instructor who provides flight instruction in these type of limited category aircraft then again you're going to need to make sure there's an exemption that permits you to do that. That's the immediate and definite result of this decision when we talk about the potential ramifications. These are possibilities but haven't happened yet so just the. I know that you're familiar with some of the potential consequences here so some of the potential consequences. When we look at flight instruction being characterized if it is Which is unclear. But if flight instruction is deemed to be carrying persons for compensation or higher when you get paid and let's remember the faa when it in his legal interpretations when you say what is compensation they say it can be. Just about anything doesn't have to be money it can be good-will can be the cruel of ours so just because somebody is not paying money doesn't mean that the faa may not take the position of compensation is involved. Which is why. I think is wise rejected to say if you are receiving providing instruction in limited category aircraft. Make sure that there's an exemption in place but for the bigger picture if providing instruction in getting compensation for it is getting compensated for carrying people that does raise some real issues that raise issues because number one right now. You don't have to have a second class medical to be a flight instructor. Could that be different. Maybe if if flight instruction is deemed to be carrying a person's for higher than it also raises questions in some of the other categories of aircraft. Because there's similar language in other categories of aircraft that talk about persons and not just passengers and carriage of persons. And what you can and can't do those categories of aircraft so what happened is by focusing on outward persons and then by putting in some language around flight instruction and the characterization of that in the court's opinion it has raised questions under a whole variety of other similarly-worded regulations. So in the worst case. I guess for commercial type operations. The operator has to have a certificate in the worst case. What does that saying about flight. Instructors what type of certificate could they theoretically need. We're going back to what jared said. Remember you don't need an air carrier certificate to give instruction there's a specific exemption in one nineteen point one but the question i think is more of what type of medical certificate could be required for the instructors here and in what categories. What hoops do you need to jump through you. Be allowed to provide instruction in a certain category of aircraft so as with experimental. 's you need a lotta if the aircraft is not owned by the student in limited category aircraft This case indicates right. Now unless the faa issues a clarification anybody that gets instruction in a limited category aircraft even if they don't that aircraft need to have an exemption place. What would the rules fee for standard category aircraft but when the roles be for other categories of aircraft. That's where the questions raised okay. So you're saying it's unlikely. I need to go out and get a part. One thirty five certificate give flight instruction in the future cracked. Okay absolutely couldn't agree more. And i'll tell you we've gotten a lot of calls from flight school owners structures across the country asking that very question. Do i need to stop what i'm doing now and go out and try to get a one thirty five certificate and by the way for those folks that have been through that process if you plot for one thirty five certificate. Hurry up and wait. 'cause it's not going to happen anytime soon But the answer of course here is that no. It's not required now. This court decision did not stand to mean that you need to go out and get that one thirty five to the typical fly instruction we talk about okay so it sounds like in the worst case. You're saying the biggest ramification might be flight. Instructors might be required if second-class medicals. Actually i don't think it's going in that direction and and if the faa tried to take it in that direction i would tell you they will have a big fight on their hands from a variety of places in in the community including from from from our association the faa. I think this is the role of unintended consequences. With broad language issued by judges who don't deal in aviation language every day. So max one of the interesting things is this case. The opinion that decision was issued an unpublished opinion. And what that means is the judges themselves. Said we don't think we're setting any big precedent here. We don't think we're making any waves. We're just dating what we think is obvious. And therefore it's an unpublished opinion. And so the judges themselves didn't seem to appreciate the impact of the nuance of some of the language that they use. Because it's not the language they use on a daily basis. And so what's important to note here is the faa traditionally has not wanted to create a large and bureaucratic pathway to training. They know that training is the key to safety. And we all want to make sure that those pathways to excess training as often as you want or need it or wide. And they're open in their easy and we don't have a lot of hurdles training keita safety. And i think that's something bit that we can all agree on. Even the faa brought up experimental aircraft a moment ago and i think in general people are unable to provide flight instruction in flight school experimental aircraft if there were such a thing but i know that for example owners of experimental aircraft can get instruction in their own personal aircraft. Explain what the load is that. You referenced in how that can help people with instruction explore craft. Sure so i i actually Lying experimental aircraft and a lot of us when we get into an experimental aircraft. We already have make model time whether you're buying one or you're building but we know this really important to be able to fly one And to get that make and model time at crew. The skills in the airframe. You're going to be fly now. The faa says because of the experimental ager and every experimental is essentially a one of a particularly on the amateur built side. The faa says. We want to put in an extra layer protection. If you don't own the plane you're flying an important part for this is to understand that. The faa clearly delineates between getting paying for instruction in an experimental versus paying for the plane that you use during the extraction with experimental. But they have this load process and the letter of deviation authorities something you can get through your local physio so unlike with limited category where they're saying right now you need to apply for an exemption and that request goes to headquarters and has a quite a bit of process behind a getting a response to that. A lotta is a relatively efficient and local process for you to be able to use a third party plane for experimental trip and that would make a lot of sense fruit. A new builder who to get trained in type before they have their own aircraft finished. Are they allowed to pay rental for the use of aircraft in addition to paying someone to them flight instruction if they have a lotta correct. So that's the key to being able to accept compensation for use of the aircraft is having that load in place and so with limited aircraft limited category aircraft there are exemptions rate now and they are over three hundred limited category aircraft currently on the phase registry of but there are not that many exemptions. There's there's only a dozen or two dozen exemptions out so there's a big gap right now in the number of exemptions versus aircraft and so the faa has some options and can look at how it's handled some of the challenge with other categories of aircraft. If wants to consider something other than the exemption process to be able to deal with those who want to get training and they may look at it and say well the pathway. You need to use depends upon whether you own the plane. You're getting training in or or somebody else's applying the plate but again these are things of the fa is considered before for other categories And won't be taking a look at as we move forward to see. How do we make sure that everybody who flies or wants to fly limited category aircraft clear and easy pathway to that training whilst we start to wrap up here any other things that you'd like to mention about this particular case and its ramifications for flying instruction what i'd say is just reiterate richard said before this house immediate ramifications you're providing receiving flight instruction in a limited category aircraft beyond that it's unclear Alpa gamut jointly sent a letter the asking for clarifications we have not yet received feedback on that But we look forward to receiving ensuring that with everyone so in the absence of clarification on the broader issues. We are thinking through concerns. We are thinking through downstream potential consequences. But there's no need for immediate action until we have more clarity of what we're dealing with and it is very possible that the faa could come back and say we are not changing our position on the characterisation by training compensation. We've always said that. His compensation for the instruction and we're not changing our position on that so we really need more information from the faa before we can identify whether there are bigger concerns and how it needs to address those concerns. Okay well before we go take a moment and tell us a little bit about as legal services plan. Yeah absolutely max. And i'm glad you mentioned it because one of my final comments here was going to be that if you are a member of. Apa style protection services and have questions about this issue particularly. If you're flying instructor you don't wait until you've already made the flight to give us a call and ask hey. Was that legal. Or am i going to be a trouble costs before you make the flight. That's always a good idea. So for ao ks pile protection services which includes our our legal services plan It's something that's available only to members we got about three hundred thousand member so these days and about seventy thousand members have opted into our legal services plan and generally how it works. is that In exchange for your membership You have access to not just in house attorneys like myself. Who can provide some initial advice to help you understand regulatory requirements. It guides you through these types of Interesting legal issues that may pop up throughout your flying but should the worst happen and you find yourself faced with an faa legal enforcement action or you have an aircraft accident or incident. We will get you in touch with a local attorney and you're going to have a certain number of hours paid for by the legal services plan to help with your legal fees associated with that event so We see work time and time again. Where folks who otherwise would not have access to education attorney because they remember legal services plan are able to either get the advice they need or or bounded defense to faa enforcement action. So certainly. it's something we recommend for all of our members but we're always happy to talk about let addition to some of the defense work in the the other interesting thing that we do that everybody may not realize and it's been a very busy part lately as been purchase and sale transactions. So if you are buying or selling a plane or leasing a plane or leasing a hanger. We can help with that. That's one of our benefits so as you know it's a pretty hot market right now for aircraft purchases and sales so. I know that our phone has been ringing. More often than usual hoping people buy sell create partnerships. Create flying clubs and secure hangers. And and where would people go to find out more information about ao pa in your legal services programs. Aarp dot org pretty straightforward. Will jared justin. Thank you so much for spending time with us here today and thank you for all the great work that you and alpa do to help support generally vacation community. Thanks for all you do to help educate all of us max and for all the flying and instruction you do pleasure to be. Thanks for having us. And my thanks to both justin harrison and jared allen for joining us today to clarify that situation if you wanna learn more about ao pa and their legal services program just to ao pa dot org. I heard just a couple of updates wanna mention something nice. That happened a few months ago. I am holding a very nice heavy glass award that was given out by cirrus aircraft earlier. This year they have a Serious safety award that they give out to one person in the entire world and guess what what has by name on it. It says a serious approach safety award twenty twenty. I know last year that it was given out to collectively all the instructors in the c- triple p. program that's a series pilot proficiency program which is taught by instructors through Copa the circus owner pilots association. I'll go ahead include a picture of this in the chapter markers but i wanna. Thanks very much for this award. And by the way when they gave this to me they cited this podcast in particular and the millions of downloads. That it's had in its contribution to safety around the world for pilots not just flying cirrus aircraft but to all aircraft. So anyway this is a very meaningful to me and Actually got pictures of my my favorite to airplanes on their its engraved the vision jet in the twenty two speaking of the vision jet. I was out flying in one today. Great fun brand. New airplane at san jose that had all of twenty hours on it. It just came out from the factory but need to get relocated to the owners home airport and it was At san jose because that's where they dropped off the instructor pilot who came out with the owner from the factory. And so i got to move it out to the central valley short flight but Quite fun the aircraft is just beautiful and it still has that new airplanes smell inside which really made it special as well Nice flight out of san jose. They asked me if i wanted to take off their section delta which i think leaves you with seven thousand feet. Now take the full length. I just like to use full length whenever i can if you think about it this way if you had some kind of issue after you got in the air and we're still at low altitude if you still have a few extra thousand feet of runway you might be able to put it back down on the ground and if that were to happen after i had run out of runway because i took intersection delta. Well that would be kinda sad. So i use the fooling the runway. Just build that little extra margin and safety into that take off so that was great fun and i posted a very short video on my facebook. Page show showing what the view looks like from up there in the vision jet and it's beautiful class cockpit. And i mentioned a couple of weeks ago that i started adding chapter markers and photos to help you navigate the show so i thanks to patrons supporters stephen ilab larry. No we end albert. Who gave feedback saying yes. They liked them. I have feedback from someone else. Who said they're not that big a deal. Which i think is probably true that i looked at my phone and i found that Get after a few seconds listing. The screen goes dark. And you don't even see the photos or the chapter markers So i mentioned. I include them so the time. But don't count on all the time by the way josh in illinois corrected me. He said that the overcast app. At least on does support chapters and the photos that i uploaded and he is absolutely correct on that. I found that when i was in the overcast app. I was just on the wrong screen. But if i swiped i could then find the photos that uploaded and perhaps a month ago i mentioned a show coming up on nova which was postponed But it's not going to be out later this week. It's called the great electric airplane race. It's on npr on the nova program with miles. O'brien and it's not about a race. I thought that's what it was instead. It says they look at an array of promising new electric airplanes. And they take you for right in some impressive prototypes. That are already in the air. So it's not a race like a traditional race but it's just all about electric aircraft and how they're doing so It's going to air on. Wednesday may twenty six or check your local. Pbs station by the way. There was an earlier episode just a few days ago on. Nove called hindenburg. The new evidence and fascinating. They look at it. A new piece of film on the hindenburg. There was taken from a different angle than all the previous footage that people have seen and they did a number of experiments in which they built mockups of the construction of the outer airbag wrapped around You know the airframe and in the testing they believe that came up with the answer to the eighty year. Old question of where that spark came from that ignited the hydrogen causing the disaster. The answer is at once. They dropped those ropes to the ground. The hindenburg became essentially a huge capacitors storing electrical charges because it was raining and there was a lightning in the area and because of the construction there were little tiny sparks created all throughout the entire superstructure and one of those sparks unfortunately happened in the near a leak in the hydrogen. So that's a fascinating episode. You may want to check it out. Check your local listings for pbs on wednesday. May the twenty six. And here's a quick email. I got from eric earhart. Who's a phd. He says maxed episode one. Eighty one you mentioned. Alpa's april see green challenge which was about landing at the airports with grass runways. He said that. I've computed the shortest tour of all airports with a mistake by solving the travelling salesman problem. Which of course is a classic problem of how somebody could have the minimum distance to travel to a number of different cities. He's figured out how to do that for all airports for each state he says i have subsets for paved runways and grass dirt strips. I've included maps tables and even km l. files to read into google earth to plan your route. This is an approximation to the quickest way to get the most grass strip check kids and he gives a web address here that you can go to go to a tiny you are l. dot com slash pilot hyphen s. p. And i'll take you to a really fascinating map of all these little paths that assurance routes around each state visit in your state. And if you end up doing that lepe now. We'll talk about it here on the show and eric says he's a member of the cooperative crossroads flying club the oldest wine club in new mexico. Eric thanks for sending that. And here's a little inside baseball. Before i started doing this podcast. I had no idea how much time it would take a good thing. I didn't know. Because if i had known frankly i probably wouldn't have started it. It's probably about twenty hours a week which you can think of as basically half a workweek so that's time when i can't be out to teaching which is my main way to make a living so i am highly appreciative to everyone who takes just a couple minutes out of their time to send a little. Thank you for doing the show by signing up to support the show financial either through patriotic or pay pal. So let me mention people who have signed up in the last two weeks to support the show. Several people who have signed up at the twenty dollars a month level. They include mallory fuller salvatori sadate andrew. Hayek and steve bloom and jamie gamble Prior supporters edited their pledges up to twenty dollars a month. Thanks so much that means they now have access to all of the bonus videos that i've posted through a patriot. Other new supporters include timothy. Gentleman zachary israel and greg kevin and a sign of a patriot. Just go out to aviation newstalk dot com slash awesome l. Take you just a couple minutes to select to support level into enter your credit card. We also have several one time donations. And if you'd like to make just a one time donation that's an easy thing to do. Go out to aviation news talk dot com slash pal. Think about how much you might pay for an hour flight. Instruction you might consider a sending that along as a monthly donation and we have some one time donations from dirk frothiness. One hundred dollars. Mahesh saint karen one hundred dollars. Mike blade fifty dollars rebecca salsbury and anthony pit. Thank you so much for all of your donations. And of course we have our mega supporters who donate fifty dollars a month up. They get a free book from after two months. They include brian deer. Who recently moved to the houston texas area. He has a turbo two six matsuda. Who's a computer engineer. Who worked for embraer in brazil now in chicago and a student pilot flying a one fifty two out of chicago executive airport tyson weiss co founder and ceo of four flight which is a popular efg app purse dickerson. He's a financial planner living in georgia and he flies a kc thirty-five dave rochet. He recently retired from the navy and just working on his instrument rating and the turkey. One forty the navy flying club in jacksonville. Kent moskva white misty on a two thousand seven series at the alpine air park in wyoming and have a passion for helping others by flying volunteer missions for angel. Flight victor vocal. He's a doc in central. Pa flies a cirrus. Tim delaney wealth manager in eagle. Idaho flies a turbo. 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They've got a pair of cessna t to forties and a piper m three fifty on order. Johnny mcdaid he's a singer songwriter. Musician and record producer. Jim goldfarb's flying out of the public airport on long island. He's training for his. Cfi and meanwhile as teaching as a ground instructor at the pilot proficiency international he can also be reached on his facebook page of ground. Point nine if you'd like to get individual instruction online vincent salimi vice mayor for the city of panel. He's the owner of cellini. Construction management in san francisco and president of the concord flying club the oldest continually operating club west of the mississippi. Jim hop he's a cfi teaches advantage aviation at the palo. Alto airport joseph if she hand flew in the navy for eight years now has a few hundred hours in his new vision. Jet josie freeman. He's working on his instrument rating dylan caldwell. He's an ame. he gets medical exam. So if you're looking for your basic med second or third class like physical and you are. Near naples florida you can contact them at aviation tours clinic dot com william birch donates to the show in the memory of his son. Lieutenant j g wall speech was a naval aviator don hak-lae with professional instrument courses. They conduct ten-day instrument courses. I if our finish up an afar refresher courses check them out at. I fly i. F r dot com don dilmun. He's a professional pilot. Who runs an airline flight department. He's also csi. and flies. A bonanza rick. Madison owner of point wise which makes cfd simulation software used by aerospace companies. You can find them at point. Wise dot com. John postel lives in flint michigan. And he rents some of the planes at the greater flint pilots association. He also cohen's turkey six. That's been updated with garmin g three x. 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Airport new york in a friend of created a website to make free flight. Planning modern and fast. The site is called flyway. And you can check it out at flyweight dot c ed kelly flies a saratoga out of mount pleasant south carolina and says his two year old son bennett is the best co-pilot he could have. Jeff brown is one of our supporters. Michael ron he runs a small wealth management firm and woodland texas and you can find them at the some planning dot com. And he's thinking about buying a serious todd cuss he lives in arizona and flies in sr twenty two increase carnahan. Who's president of boone valley forest products and flies. Veto bonanza out of spirit airport in saint. Louis thanks to everyone who contributes to the show in whatever way you do and if you love the show and you'd like to sport us other ways well you can head on out to your podcast app and believe a five star review. 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