Stanley Sloan and Holiday Prep Stress on Women
The Promo Radio Vermont. It's the Dave Graham show on. WD It's your show about the people places and the issues that matter the the most of you. Now here's your host Dave Graham Good Morning for Monte this Friday the thirteenth of December two thousand and nineteen. Hope Y'all have the best of luck today the end I hope we have some good luck on the program this morning. I think we are going to have a short show today. We're going to go live ten o'clock to CBS. News coverage from Washington didn't of resumption of deliberations in the House Judiciary Committee on the impeachment of President Donald Trump. But we do have our first our guests that we had scheduled already to go this morning. I do believe in will. We're going to have Paul Heights on from seven days giving us an update on his terrific recent coverage about the problems alums at the Chicken and regional correctional facility provides only women's prison alleged to be rife with sexual misconduct By some members of the staff half as well as substance abuse by few anyway and other problems there as well as Just not a lot of oversight in responsiveness when people bring Concerns and complaints to senior staff at the at the women's prison there in South Burlington will be bringing Paul in just a moment after I tell you about our second half hour. Very interesting story developed involving Vermont. Person this week Man named Stanley Sloan in nineteen sixty. One graduate of my high school. Local guy makes good. He goes off. It ends up being one of the world's leading experts on NATO and EU relations between the United States and and Europe and In between between the Western Alliance That NATO is and then so we union now Russia and Anyway Mr Sloan was scheduled to be a speaker at a conference in Denmark This past Tuesday. He's been somewhat critical of president trump on over issues related to NATO and how the president has handled his His his contacts contact with the other NATO nations leaders and the US ambassador to Denmark. Carl Sands Announced recently that Mr Sloane would not be speaking at this conference in Denmark he withdrew slash blocked his invitation there and that prompted the Danish organizers of the conference conference to cancel the entire event so this is apparently the trump administration not wanting to brook any criticism and ending ending with a cancellation of a of an event on the future of NATO scheduled to be have happened earlier this week in Denmark. Well Mr Sloane Stanley. Sloan is visiting scholar at Middlebury College based here in Vermont of course and he is going to be a guest of the Dave Ramsey show in the second half hour program of the program this morning. You know if you can't get get your views Out into a form over there in Copenhagen Denmark we still have free speech rights here in Vermont. And we're going to hear what Mr Sloan has to say in the ED. Second part of this Short show today. But the first part I wanted to vote to this unfolding still unfolding story Vermont. That was really launched last week by Paula Heights. So seven days and Paul Haines is my guest. Good Morning Paul. Hey Dave has it gone. I'm doing well. How are you so tell me a little bit about The coverage that you you are on our show last week talking about urine sort of introductory story on this topic of real problems at the what used to be known as the four CS I guess back. When the official name was the Chicken County Correctional Center or something like that and but is now known as the chicken and regional correctional facilities? The Vermont's only women's prison and it's rife with problems And you give us a brief recap of what you find what your initial reporting was and then unroll force a little bit. What's happened since then? Sure so as we discussed last week I was able to document Quite a number of really horrific allegations evolving Both Kelly but also a little bit more broadly other parts of the Department of Corrections Then and these range from alleged sexual assault within the facility inappropriate and illegal relationships between the SEC. Staffers inmate former inmates under the DNC supervision. Outside of the prison retaliation You know some pretty serious drug use by a shift supervisor at the prison so a lot. There's a lot right in there It was like a thousand word. Cover story In last week's paper as In that story I we. We posted a email address and phone number for people to contact us with With more information that they know about It's going to Department of Corrections and we've got just a ton of saw a ton of tips since then so wading through those and In this week's seven days I had a story that sort love looks at what Officials knew about these allegations prior to our reporting and we were able to get our hands on. Um I'm quite a number of documents that show That a series of prison superintendents were aware of many of these complaints over the years. That current Commissioner of corrections fractions was aware of some of them and then Most surprising of all I suppose is that The attorney general teach Donovan was also where some of with them And I WANNA be clear that not. All these people knew everything right but In Donovan's case he met with to corrections officers one current one former and I believe may of twenty seventeen and they were considering suing the state because they said that they faced pretty serious sexual harassment at shooting in regional and other parts of the corrections department. So they basically went to Donovan to lay out their allegations and You know I think they were trying to avoid having to file litigation But also they say what they really wanted was for somebody to clean out the proper of corrections they thought that by brains allegations directly to the Attorney General. He might talking about that. This is actually a really interesting case. I think of of a tough conundrum for any attorney general In which is as follows. They are a big part of their job is representing state agencies. They are the lawyer for the Department of Corrections for example and so In that puts that puts the general duty. Wise doesn't it. In sort of defensive posture relating to the Department of corrections totally totally totally. And that's what it says is You know my job was to deal with this threat of litigating And what I did was I you know I settle all the case quickly. I did it in a manner that didn't put the The guards in a in the position of having to publicly fight this court battle for years years He thought it was a pretty good solution. I think both for the state and for These guards You know they were expecting something more and I think you do do point out a challenge with this role of attorney general right there. One of their jobs is to defend the state to the states lawyer but the other one is to to sort of be the the You know chief advocate in a way for the people right chiefly. We will advocate for the people. And you see the same issue with the EP. Five case yes absolutely and a lot of people. A lot of people want Attorney General to hold the state accountable. for whatever. It did wrong wrong if anything you'd be five situation but really in that case. His job is to defend the agency's not getting so You know I think maybe the bigger the bigger question me though is Regardless of what his His duties are on paper If you know a top elected official in Vermont Learns that there. Is You know there are ongoing allegations of sexual harassment Within a estate agency Perhaps that person ought to do a little bit more than tell the case. Perhaps after selling the case that person Could look into the situation more are and try to address it and I I think there is some irony here Because as you know Attorney General Donovan has very very expansive view of his powers. Our Attorney General. Yes he he just touches every issue he possibly can. I don't WanNa let him off the hook at all. I don't mean to imply that I'm I'm wondering actually did he go to Did he go to Governor Phil Scott and say. Hey you're my client. I WanNa sit you down to talk to you about you. Have a huge kettle of of problems. You know on the boil up in South Burlington here and you better pay attention did he. Is there any indication he did that. There is no indication that talk to who anybody about this and I you know I only know what he has told me But I gave him and his office A couple of opportunities to respond to this provide more information. Yeah about his response And they basically only pointed to his decision to settle this case so it does not appear that he went to anybody or did anything think to correct this problem. That's weird. I mean I if I were him I just I mean if in part to kind of cover himself into a little advance band aid on his own political future or whatever because this stuff is GonNa come out someday folks so when you see when you see problems like this and you are in senior level of government you you you don't just You know just is hope it goes away right well and I think that might be kind of a theme throughout this reporting You know a lot of the stuff. I know that. These allegations are surprised to too many people in Vermont but to those who are working in the system. They're really not. I mean the the number of people have talked to over the last week or so with the Mike Dunn. No kidding this is happening right like I didn't really know but we all sort of new right because You know April mccollum from the Burlington free press A really great story a year ago. about the plight of one of these cards. Could I described here. Pretty Sweet April first person as far as I know who reported on The allegations she made against the Department of Corrections. I read that story year ago. I didn't do anything about it. You probably wear that story. I don't know anything about it you know. We've all had some indications stations along the way you know we all bear some responsibility. I you are. You're correct. You're correct about that. Of course then we have our elected officials who are The reason we put him there has to pick up the responsibility that we all bear and And if they're not doing that or if they're not doing that very effectively then that certainly worth pointing out and that's what That's journalists journalism is four folks and You know again my hats are my hat off to you. Paul for for really taken this Sir all down the field the long way here and And continuing to push over the past ten days you you have not rested on your laurels. Tell us a little bit about the unfolding the developments that you've had sort of new revelations since your initial story. Yeah well you know Terry Smith a show yesterday Sort of the thing that I'm watching most closely right now is this. He has pledged sector. Smith has pledged to engage some sort of third party investigator to really take a more thorough. Look at what happened here. And Smith wants it to be somebody outside of state government meant. He's he's said in recent days he prefer it to be the federal government. the US Attorney the district of Vermont So we may have some news on that later today potentially I'm curious to see where that goes. let me stop you there for a second but it could be. That's so important. And you're right Mike Smith the secretary the Human Services Whose Agency of course includes the Department of corrections was on the day. Graham show here yesterday and he was talking about this idea of setting up a An outside entity to the to to basically be a place for complaints about the internal workings of the Corrections Department to go and have them be addressed and resolved that Cetera. I think there's a long history history here in a wide variety of different types of complaints within the Department of Corrections were inmates are allowed to file a grievance and and the ah or their grievance procedures for St Staff to you know the the Union contract with state employees And the a real problem though. Is that these things tend to just go down the memory hole because you're you're essentially complaining about a system in which the people who are receiving complaints also work in the system so I love to sort of separate these two issues. I think so what I was just talking about is is actually more a an investigation into what happened. And so so this is I think really could use a ton of investigations around this. There's the state police criminal Komo investigation. there is Mike this internal short term He's calling it a review now. She hopes to end by next week with some recommendations recommendations for the governor there. Is this Additional investigation that that he wants the federal government to take on which I think would look at what what what has gone wrong at at the prisoners apartment more generally over the past few years and then there is what I think you were just too which is What what is going to be the the ongoing system for people who are reporting complaints that happened now or in the future and so? That's that's another thing. That Smith is working on And he has tried his establishing Two different hotlines one of which is for employee complaints and that hotline hotline would go to the Department of Human Resources which is outside of the Agency of Human Services so that that number was set up yesterday. So please who has the report can use that hotline now Separately there is he's working on establishing a hotline for inmates to Report Abuse Service conduct of any kind I've got a story that shit lead on our website pretty soon hopefully That talks about what the system has been for reporting reading and It my reporting suggests that Vermont has actually knocked been in compliance with federal law. Federal law requires prisons to have have a hotline for inmates that goes to an independent third party so they can make a complaint And not complain goes outside of the facility ability and will be sent back to the facility in some sort of Anonymous fashion. So it's it's a way to protect people from retaliation allegation Vermont has not had that Vermont has had a hotline for inmates but the Hotline just goes to the Department of Corrections Central Central Office. which you know you can see why that might be a problem right? If you're saying some kind of abuse at the hands of prison officials you don't want to report that to prison officials So that is the challenge for Smith Right now is to find an outside entity who will actually take on that job up at according to Department crash officials. I've spoken to It's it's been difficult to find an outside Body willing to actually do that work or if you really need a response of hotline there's always eight six five ten twenty. That's the number for seven days paul-heinz folks and we also have just got a call in from Steve Howard of the Vermont. What State Employees Association obviously Among the players in this whole scene up there at the prisoners are a bunch of state employees who Who actually do the day to day work of providing correction action officers services etc.? Good Morning Steve. Good Morning Dave. How are you good? you got to be quick here because we only have a couple of minutes left. But what's what's on your mind. Well it's just a couple of things I think. It's really really important to stress that the vast majority of correctional officers across the State of course are upstanding folks who respect and Respect the rights of the folks who they are working with the incarcerated population in the state that needs to be said Straightforwardly but I also think we have to take a look at the Department of Human Resources and the role they. They played in in the Department of Corrections. And then what did they know how much worked. How much investigative work did they do? I would also suggest that Secretary Smith and others look for another entity that That are members could call to report information other the Department of Human Resources Somebody who is not attached to management Because I think that is probably going to be more successful in actually getting reports done than if few attach if if you ask people to call the Managers Department of Human Resources. Yeah I mean I I eventually is i. I was only maybe one quarter joking before the break. When I said you know the the the place to call is eight I looked it up about eight? Six five ten twenty. I think that's the number for seven days and that's so that's I mean. Let me give you a different number. Two Oh three six three. That's dedicated the SEC. Reporting live so two to three sixth grade the three so okay well. You don't WanNA flood your switchboard. That's Okay Okay Paul. Sorry about that man caused trouble. But I I think Steve You make good point but I also think that eventually that kind of is the role of the media when you want to get outside of government Sometimes the place to call to get really you know pretty pretty pretty Hard hitting and and tough and neutral and objective responses to problems within government structures is You know recall your local call the call seven days call call your local newspaper called digger whoever you want to. But that's the media play a crucial role here and I just you know again. My Hat's off the Paul for his work in this regard so something as well. Here's I just wanted to piggyback piggybacking. On what Steve was saying Some of the Many of the complaints that I've been quoting from the DNC employees who have been speaking out about this all right. That's what are the complaints that this story was from a Siesta Union Steward Who spoke out about this years ago? The you know the which to women who went to Cheryl Donovan Where Dr Phil Show any employee another good point? Unfortunately we had to leave it there so Paul Heights seven days. Thanks so much joining me. This morning Steve Our four. Thank you for your call as well. Let's go to bother me our breakfast. CBS News more than four. The Dave Ramsey show to follow on a different topic. Stay with US folks this Jack From the Warren store wishing you all a happy and healthy holiday season in asking all of you to shop local heat local in visit local the days ahead getting darker and it looks like winter is finally here. Give yourself the gift of stress. Free Life by shopping eating in visiting visiting local visit your friends businesses and restaurants and support their passion in performance. I know that they would love to see you. The Warren store where funky friendly and league and almost world famous. It's the Dave Graham show-me WD FM am and we continue into the second half hour our program. This morning it's Friday the thirteenth of December two thousand in nineteen and my next guest is stand sloan. He's nineteen sixty one graduate of my high school a local. Oh boy makes good. He goes off into the world and becomes one of the well known international expert on NATO. He's a visiting scholar Middlebury College. I spent some time with the CIA. Okay and Stance loan was scheduled from what we understand to speak at a conference this week. I think it was scheduled for Tuesday in Denmark and He was going to be talking about The future of NATO the current status of NATO the North Atlantic Treaty Organization of courses the Stalwart alliance the Western alliance between Europe and the United States. That has been the counterweight of the West to formerly the Soviet bloc and more recently Russia and of course We've had some strange ranger goes on with Russia. In recent years given our current administration the President of the United States has been quite critical of NATO and and many people have accused him of sort of undermining its fundamental purposes and he of course Takes the view that the United States has been too long The principal partner in terms terms of funding NATO in the military alliance in particular. That Europe hasn't done its share. We need to get more out of our our allies in Europe. If the if anything along the lines of session lions GonNa Continue. So there's a lot going on a lot of moving parts with NATO and stance loan is Was GonNa be speaking at this conference in Denmark. He has been somewhat what critical of president trump in president trump's stances on NATO over the over recent years all of a sudden the ambassador to Denmark for the United States that a woman named Carla Sands Who background as as an actress and chiropractor from California She She was. She's ambassador to Denmark and she weighed in a and said. I don't really want this guy. Speaking at this conference in Denmark and the Danish hosts of the conference then turned around and said well. Guess what we're going to have the conference. The whole thing's cancelled cancelled. So weird events there in relation especially in my estimation to the whole idea of free speech and so on. We do still have free speech here in Vermont brought in on including on the day of Graham show here. WD Ev FM and am and Long Story Short Dan. I'm sorry stand Sloane Stanley. Sloan is my guest this morning here in the studio. Thanks for coming by Mr Sloan. They thanks for inviting me in so if I got the basic facts of that story about your invitation this invitation Asian and the cancellation. All all right you do it The first reaction of the Danish Atlantic Council was the the in-country sponsor for the event was to let me know that I was off the program Then there was a very strong reaction to that and the next day they cancelled the entire conference partly because they thought it would become a debate about what had happened rather than about NATO and they wanted to do something about about NATO. And that's why I was invited. Yeah you know I I was saying the last talking on the phone about your appearance here today in one irony year is that if the ambassador to Denmark had not intervened and you had been allowed to speak week at the conference Just as planned and everything had gone off smoothly How much do you think the story would have gotten versus? What it's getting getting now? It would have gotten some local play because the local press media know something about me know my views and know that I have been critical all of the president and his approach to NATO and so it would have gotten some local press and I think that probably would have been the end of it but the action of the ambassador and at this this point we don't know whether she had guidance from Washington or not The State Department apparently has said that he didn't give guidance along those lines and of some sources that I have in Denmark say that People at the embassy believes that they did have guidon so we don't know whether it was her initiative or not but in any case It it has become a huge story and You know in in some way I think The Danish population prestigious waiting for something about this ambassador. I really think they feel disrespected. Getting an ambassador who apparently was appointed largely because she'd given several hundred two thousand dollars to the trump to help two thousand sixteen campaign. Yeah there apparently is an important qualification. if you look at for instance Gordon Som- Limousine Bachelor to the European Union. I think he's primary qualification for such an important post in international relations was being large donor to the trump campaign to as well right. Yes and this says happened with previous presidents as well but usually presidents try to appoint someone not only who is given to their campaign or supported them politically but also oh someone who has some experience or or contact to the country. They're being appointed to in this case. There was none of that the and and you know I. I think that that is a balancing act that I don't mean to pick on trump exclusively about this because you're right Particularly to to the smaller and more minor posts You know Some of the European capitals we hardly ever hear of they tend to get ambassador appointments under many presidents who have Been Campaign donors and and who have had MAYBE NOT IN A. They certainly haven't come up through the foreign service. Let's put it. That way certainly is true. The the problem is because Denmark. Marcus very strong important. Small country but NATO ally send troops to Afghanistan and they're very loyal ally and to treat them like this yes. I think they felt disrespected. And you know that that actually is a point worth making because You're right about Denmark. I mean I I do follow. Follow the history of the I happen to be a Danish heritage myself so I sort of follow. Follow the history and the role of Denmark in in the NATO alliance in another realms realms Just based on that kind of personal curiosity but I m my sense has been that they have been a real a real stalwart supporter of of NATO For throughout its existence really and have been among the first step up and several of the conflicts in which the United States is putting together Sort of multilateral Darrelle forces and so on and it sometimes to the point of criticism. those especially on the left who don't like the quote Washington consensus and the idea. You know the historic idea. That came out of you know George H W Bush about a unit polar world and and kind of the US ruling ruling the oceans and so one Denmark was willing in some people's estimations but but they They certainly have been there. And so now we have this situation where The United States is Kind of given the back of the hand I guess is that fair I think so the Danes in addition to being loyal allies in sort of the the sense of making contributions the they also believe strongly in the values that underlie the North Atlantic Treaty Organization the preamble envelop the North Atlantic Treaty in nineteen forty nine specified that the alliance stood for democracy individual liberty and the rule of law and the Danes. Really believe leave and and take this seriously and they believe that at this point the American administration is not necessarily serving as the the sitting on the hill. That Reagan used to talk about Providing guiding light for democracy is everywhere. They see us as falling off from that kind of off. Soft power leadership you know this is this is so important and this to me is really the crux of why I wanted to be a guest on the show today because We have we have a certain set of values that America traditionally stood for in the world. At least ideally now. Obviously there's a lot of real politics that goes on and there's a lot of criticism from both right and left of what the US actually doing versus what it says it's doing and its etc etc but on good days in the ideal world the the United States has been a beacon for Four things like free speech. The First Amendment to the constitution talks about a tolerance for dissent essentially and And here we have a person who is very well trained and schooled in in all aspects relating to NATO yourself Stanley early. Sloan and you are someone who is not afraid. It hasn't been afraid to speak out and say I think the president is wrong. Headed about certain aspects of his remarks act actions actions related to NATO and And so again ideally. You'd say well this this person doesn't like what the president is doing. bring them to the conference. Allow him to say that. Get another speaker to up there. Who are willing to defend what the president is doing? Have the back and forth. This is called The discussion that you hope will lead to quote unquote more perfect union elsewhere in the constitution. That phrase right. I happen to believe in the value debate in different perspectives. Yeah and in fact I've been doing public diplomacy speaking engagements for the State Department since the early nineteen eighties and the State Department has always respected the fact that it speakers may have different views than current administration policy. I've never found in all of those years speaking for the State Department. I've I've never had the experience where either an ambassador or an embassy decided that My criticism was Something that they they didn't want to put before foreign audiences and I've always argued that that's real strength of our democracy is the fact that our government through the State Department has been willing thing to provide speakers to foreign audiences at demonstrate that we have different points of view we can argue about them and we have effective democracy. You know and and and that's the that's the That is the aura. I think the United States wants to put out in front of an audience like this at a conference in Denmark anywhere in Europe or anywhere in the world really is to go out there and say we are. We are strong enough that we and self confident enough that we actually encourage criticism because sometimes we get learn some things and improve our game. That's you know that's that's That's what that's what it's all about. I mean again that more perfect union phrase is is really the sort sort of the push toward todd. What people in industry have called total quality improvement? You know and And that's been been a key part of the country three strengths over the couple of centuries it's been in existence and I just I really bothers me frankly to see it diminished that that principle diminish this idea of uh of of encouraging criticism. And you know from what I've seen of of I. I've actually been to a couple of conferences. And so on where people from the state eight department were speaking and and it almost seemed I remember one When I was in Europe years and years ago the The the goal seemed to be to actually purposely Ashley bring in people of different views and and say you know. Here's here's view a and here's view. Let's have it out kind of thing. And and and the and the idea that the that the United States of America could be a key sponsor of this event and willing to hear pretty diametrically opposed views on the topic at hand would be just something that I think other folks around the world really looked at that and said wow that. That's that's that's a sign of a strong country and a strong democracy that it's able and willing to do that Are we do you think we're going to be able to get back there. I hope so. I hope so I think a lot of damage has been done to both our democracy and also to our image overseas what we call soft power the ability to get people to follow us without coercing them that soft power has been diminished dramatically during the trump administration. We no longer have of they trust and it shows up in public opinion polls so far. Most governments are reluctant to criticize the administration but even there at the the meeting in London last week it was obvious that there were these Photo opportunities of many of the several have NATO heads of estate mad cow joking about the president that kind of thing truly diminishes our influence is not just a matter of image. It's a matter of whether people be willing to follow us except our judgments. What's what's what's at risk here? I mean suppose the United States says you know who who really cares about NATO anymore. It's getting old and we can. We can sort of really diminish our our role in it or even let it dissolve. Who cares what's the problem with that? The problem is that we're talking about out of a world in which there are still threats. Soviet Union no longer around Borussia definitely has been working against not only providing a fairly substantial essential military threat against West but also political one has one as well messing around in our elections and also messing around in European elections as well we also who have terrorism out there and and growing challenge from China all of those things benefit our interest by cooperating with our NATO allies. I I obviously the world is still out there folks and I don't know I've always taken a little bit of comfort in the idea that something like NATO was in business. So let's see let's see of listeners out there has to say friends friends online from newborn fred morning. It's an interesting theory is far as the State Department's concerns in the Defense Department's it's called the stability instability paradox and it seems to be working quite well right now. Do you think it will continue to work. Well what is the stability instability paradox red. Okay major powers The major powers don't go to war with each other but they have they have. What's it called proxy wars and Korea Afghanistan Nicaragua with that sort of thing And the question again is what the instability paradox will continue. What do you think about that? Stanley Sloan. It's not exactly Something that I have off put a lot of focus on but I think guess to some extent it will continue and It's always a challenge for major power decide when wants to maintain the current situation. And what it wants to change and sometimes they act of changing involves the use of force. Sometimes it works out sometimes. It doesn't and they don't use force against each other but they had these proxies that Right I and indefinitely is a good thing that United States and Soviet Union never use force against each other. That is a good thing if there's another theory of color Kind of dogs and that is one. We how is threatened by another major power will be threatened power tax major major power or its rival. 'cause it's GonNa move feel powerful the Peloponnesian war that well then that certainly Something which I. Frankly don't think we're going to get it. Get a real definite answer in the last minute or so that we have here the segment of the show. But I thank you for the call. Freighter provocative questions is always. Hey I wanted to mention that We are coming up at the top of the hour. I Wanna I think for thank my guest. Very much stands stands. Sloan international expert on NATO although really's been in the news. This week you can google his name Stanley. Sloan and you'll get some interesting coverage folks for Washington Post New York Times and We are going to. I'm going to monitor the situation over the next hour which is usually my second hour here. We're going to go live to. CBS News for the impeachment coverage. I we may be ducking back in here later on in the hour for some more the Dave Ramsey show we'll just have to see what unfolds And be back with us on Monday for going to have a visit with. Mary Powell the outgoing. CEO Green Mountain our so so Anyway there you go folks were go into a CBS News at the top of the hour. Here this is Jack from the Warren store wishing you all a happy and healthy the holiday season in asking all of you to shop local heat local and visit local. The days ahead are getting darker and it looks like winter is finally here. Forgive yourself the gift of a stress free life by shopping eating in visiting local visit your friends businesses and restaurants and support their passion in performance. Ordinance I know that they would love to see you. The warrants store where funky friendly almost world-famous. It's the Dave Ramsey. Show I W we are back continuing our program this morning today grab show and we are going to be talking about the holidays. And how women take on an awful lot of the burdens and chores and responsibilities really for keeping the holidays running smoothly in our families and it really is quite something I did. I decided to get into this because I saw an article. Recent recently. Why a writer named Hartley who was talking about emotional labor and the Emotional Labor is actually sort of taking on the responsibility for a A wide variety of thinking about chores never mind the chores I mean people have done studies forever about how women do a a lot of the housework and cooking and the childcare etcetera etcetera but emotional labor actually use the planning for all of that and the thinking about it and the the The time it takes actually to make the LS before you actually go out and buy the stuff on the list for instance just for one of myriad examples and around the holidays this. This seems to be the time of year when a lot of these issues are are very much stepped up shall we say and I I have a an expert on and How this plays out in the retail sector? And that would be Cathy Murphy and she is The proprietor of the street reporting right here in Waterbury our good friend and neighbor just down the street from the WD EVI studios. And she is of a Willis this this morning in the studio good morning. Kathy headlining and there's no better friend to US than WD said. Thank you dave. While I'm glad to have you here I think I think you came in last year. Just to talk to us about the the Generals Zeno the retail season in and the big black Friday etcetera season. Here that we get into this time of year this year I decided to. I saw this article agenda Hartley's piece on emotional labor and it struck me that boy you know it really is true when you look around and in fact I was talking to a good friend and colleague last week I said did you know. Sort of jokingly asked him I said have you done all of your Christmas shopping and he said you know my wife said to me. Well you only have to buy you only have to buy one thing meaning for her. And it's a sure as he goes out and she does all the shopping for the rest of the family and I said I kind of went Ding. That's topic for. Shell L. Right so cathy. Thank you so much for joining me this morning. Appreciate your stopping by. Thanks for having me and I believe we do have on the phone with us. Also Lisa Lisa Senegal. She is the chair of the Vermont Commission on Women. Is that right Lisa right here excellent. I'm glad we were able to connect with you this morning. It's been quite an adventure just to do that. So we talk about those details at some other juncture but Lisa I I wanted to. I wanted to start with you I think I sent you a link. Do this article last week about emotional labor. Did you have a chance to look at that at all I did and I. It's you know you won't be surprised that it's a topic of conversation. Tation both within the the commission and among women on a pretty regular basis yeah and and and I mean it was a tough article for me to read. Just because is I'm sort of thinking about how this kind of stuff played out in my own life and so on and so forth. I think it really did raise some crucial issues about You know as as I say I don't know if you've heard the the little intro but It was talking about how there's been a lot of studies you know in books and so on their remember there was a book called the second shift that was probably twenty years his old. Now we were Talking about how women in you know you have doubt sort of households which many times both spouses are working fulltime. I'm and they're trying to run a household also And and but a lot of that work of running the household of just doing the chores the laundry childcare the cooking king of cleaning etc tend to tend to fall to two women. Still you know. As if these old traditional roles have not gone away completely really not transitions to equal sharing by men and women but this article really focused beyond that on the sort of thinking about the stuff the the the actual you know. How do you? It's not just a matter of cleaning the closet but it's actually Figuring out where stuff is GonNa go when you do clean the closet in and that sort of thing Is this in your estimation. Do you hear more about this. This time of year with the holiday all the holiday shopping preparations incarcerating going on. Oh yeah absolutely it's You know there's so many different elements to it. You Know Women Still L. ended up taking on the bulk of responsibility for not just caring for children and all that goes along with that but women who are in the sandwich generation integration are also taking care of elderly parents and their relatives and that becomes even more important and a responsibility to make sure that that the holidays remain special For those folks but it creates creates a tremendous additional burden When you're already taking on all all the extra cooking and cleaning and Holiday parties and yes the cards. But you know all the increase stuff that happens Especially in elementary age. Children's James Lives and you know they're having school parties. They're having you know extra gatherings you've got the extra gatherings for for adults. Ah Commitments that you have both both just social and additional work and I know I have you know the parties. These are wonderful but board commitments. That you end up having layered onto that. So yeah it's it's a lot of extra Worked for women during the holiday season that unfortunately not only raises stress levels for women this time of year but it also so suck some of the joy out of the holidays and that has you know I I think all of us if we take a step back and think about our childhood the things that we've remember the time that we spent with family and friends and if that time ended up being marred with Parents particularly MOMS being incredibly stressed out that has a negative impact on the holidays just overall. It's just less less fun for everyone. If you're you're being frayed to the point that they know you're are not enjoying it and it it's creating stress within the family all that peace and joy stuff kind of starts to diminish somewhat. It does that that is that is too bad and and We're GONNA be going shortly to avert any our breakfast and CBS News. But I wanNA talk afterward about maybe see what you might suggest for that men would would want to think about doing to help spread the spread the work and then you know by by extension spread the joy joy because You know this is supposed to be time for sharing and carrying this time of year Ca Cathy Murphy We were talking last week when I was recruiting you to come on the show today. And you're telling me that about seventy five percent of the people who come into your store that stonestreet emporium ear on street in Waterbury are in fact female. They are female. But I would say it's only female. It's probably more like eighty five percent Because of course women come in with their partners and end Or the best is when they leave him at the pub to come in themselves and relax shop at leisure so that stress that Lisa it was just talking about isn't prevalent. It's SORTA like honey you you go get a beer. I'M GONNA go shopping well. It's tiny in our store. We we I do have a men's shirt rack Prada lucky brand shirts but we really call our men's department. The two Yemeni chairs that we have for the guys to hang out and while aw their female partners are that is the thing so the guy actually goes into the store what yeah and but then any ends up sitting in a comfy chair while it was wife Wanders around the store is still checking the list and looking at looking for what to buy stuff correct and and Are The guy she threw sheepish about this at all awards just Well you know. I don't WanNa sound stereotypical either for the for for the guys out there but I have had some come in and they are actually carrying the list. The guys are carrying the list and Well we can pick that up. Yeah let's break we're going to go to some some. CBS News at the bottom of the hour here and when we return we're going to continue our conversation about the load on women around the holidays. We'll be back folks. This is Jack from the warned. Learn store wishing you all a happy and healthy holiday season in asking all of you to shop local heat local in visit local. The days ahead are getting darker darker and it looks like winter is finally here. Give yourself the gift of stress. Free Life by shopping eating in visiting local visit. Your friends. Businesses says and restaurants and support their passion in performance. I know that they would love to see you. The warrants store where funky friendly and almost world famous now back to the Graham. WD FM and now we are back in. We are continuing our conversation about the load of stress and work and chores and preparations at center. A loaded onto women at this time of year. it seems much more so than then men and we have a couple of people who I think the big picture of you and also we're going to get some small picture of you. I think in a moment from Lisa She's the chair of the of the Vermont Commission on Women and and Cathy Murphy is. Proprietor of the stonestreet. Emporium here. In Montpellier terrific shop with. I'm sorry what did I say. I still half asleep phone. Sorry we are in Waterbury and install street is in Waterbury in the street in Waterbury. Okay now I've said it three times I should be able to get a right for the rest of the show. The street emporium in Waterbury were Cathy. Murphy is the proprietor. And you are Someone who is up close and personal to the shopping habits of men and women and and I wanted to check in with you Kathy because you were saying that You men come into the shop. And there's this phenomenon where the gender prevalence may I changed for just one day. Oh usually Christmas Eve Christmas Eve. What happens on Christmas Eve? Well that's the last minute HURRAH panic sets and it's all the guys who come in and say Oh my God. Yeah my wife's from shopping since August I am right yeah get it done in one fell swoop. So it's fine with us but we do find that men are more Acceptable to have help right away. which is awesome? They'll come in and ask for advice and suggestions which of course we're always happy to give and do so but it isn't it and and and you In is it fair to say the majority of the staff in the store female. Yes okay so here again. I just want to point out that what's going on there. It sounds like is these guys are coming in and say. Oh Oh I'm clueless. I need some health and women's step up and and and think through what they need to be thinking for sure I think we're I think we're continuing in some kind of a pattern here. But they come in with their kids and the kids really like to help dad takeout gifts at Lisa's Senecal L.. Is the chair of the Vermont. Commissioner women and Lisa you you look at these At a lot of issues related to gender relations from sort of a big picture theoretical perspective. I'm sure and and you you're well read on these topics but you also mentioned to me when you're talking about this scheduling. This program that you have some experience in retail yourself is that right. Yeah I worked in retail. Excuse me all through high school and then Off and on during in college and I worked at a department store and I had absolutely the same experience on Christmas. Eve of he primarily in the women's department was It was a desperate desperate men coming in who Didn't have clear ideas. They also didn't have sizes which was staying and and I would ask you know what ties does your wife or your your girlfriend wear and they would get a sort of dumbstruck look on their faces like it hadn't occurred to them that that might be information formation. That would be important when they went clothes shopping and they would be well. She's about yourself and and then after the holidays I the boxes would come back now in the heights of in the hands of wives and girlfriends who clearly were not about my size and and the men were just happy to have anything box that we would also route for them. Didn't didn't WANNA show up empty handed on Christmas this morning on my Gosh so truly we experienced that same things. How and I gotta say I'm getting more and more embarrassed here as a member of the male side of the species here because this is This is just. It's embarrassing. I gotta say I mean come on guys what is what what is what is up with this. I mean Let me let me. Have you give your pitcher Lisa. You're talking to men. Now what do you WanNa say about all this. Give them a little thought to it in advance. I would say that the the gift giving is the least of of What you could do to help participate? Ask the women in your lives what they have going on between you know and Christmas or during Hanukkah whatever holiday you celebrate in your family and and start getting a real rely dea of what it is Additional that are on these women's list to do and then sit down and take twenty minutes to figure here out how you might take on some of those things on the list and take some of the burden off. You know a person you will you care about deeply and and I don't think men don't want the women in their lives to enjoy the holidays I think they have a tendency To a large degree to not be aware of just how much additional burden is on women this time of year and and it's also partially women's responsibility to say. Hey look here's the list that I have of everything I have to do. Between now and the twenty fifth so let the down. I don't see how we can. We can split us up or Brussels. Some of this is a long list. I think I love all that Lisa. You're so on point I. I feel like men view shopping more as a necessity and women view it more as an event or an experience except for maybe this time of year. Are you know when they when they do feel the burden of getting everything done so going through the list. Yes you know I let me let me Let me say something. That's GONNA sound stupid and guy like and And and shoot this down because I mean obviously there's gotta be some kind of response to it but I mean and I hear me. I hear some men. I mean I had a conversation months ago about this whole just emotional labor in general with a couple of other guys and one was saying something like well You know women worry about what order the knickknacks go in and men worry about whether their favorite basketball team is going to sharpen up zone defense and And these are just two different realms and So so in terms of the actual mental energy that gets voted to These different topics. That's just kind of the way it breaks down in. What are we gonNA do about it sort of thing? So Lisa. Tackle that one Well I I would say as a sports loving woman that we also carry that weight of worrying being about our our teams are doing this time of year but beyond that on. I think it's important for you. Know there's there's some there's there's a nugget something really important in what you said. That man's response was and I- women in have been programmed and the programming is ongoing on the covers of magazines and on instagram. And you know checking out other people's social media and seeing all the wonderful things they seem to be doing to create the perfect Christmas and you know why am I not able to do more and shouldn't I be doing this and I think we have to look at the things that we play on ourselves and what we feel. We're responsible for doing and and start looking at what's truly important to be done. And what is just additional stuff we've bought into that isn't really necessary But we we take it on anyway so you know there. There does have have to be some reevaluation. I think of Our capacity to do things and the importance of doing various things. I think we have a tendency to think but you know other people have expectations of us that that if we didn't meet it would be okay. Christmas would still come. Hannukah would still come and people who would still love us. Yeah that's an interesting perspective. Actually I mean some of this does sound like not not that women are necessarily should be assigned yet another task but one of the if they were to take on a new task. It might be to Figure out tasks they can shed. Yes yeah I think we can. We can be planning to ourselves and Not Everything is going to be the difference between whether or not the holidays are wonderful for everyone or not and we have to figure out what is and what isn't important to young men about Christmas and and this whole topic just the other day and And one gets a lump of coal in his stocking with this response. He said Christmas stupid and if women want to take that on themselves. I'm not going to feel too badly about it. ooh That's right Kathy. What do you think of? That is a response. That's a big lump coal in his stocking. You know of course. I'm coming from a retail perspective. When I hear statements like that I fear? You're the downfall do my store and the industry because without women right now stores like mine would probably collapse so yeah yeah that I mean th th for that practical perspective. This is a really these are these are pretty crucial issues. I'm communities so that involves men and women so that is the case while. Here's here's another response. Got which I just have to repeat because I thought it was kind of hilarious. This other guy said the workers actually equally divided between the sexes is just that men men give all their work to one guy and his reindeer. I don't know let me let me. I want to bring in my good friend friend Dana. You'll hear because I got to blame him. He's the one who got me onto this. He's our he's our producer. He's also news guy here. He's a man whereas many hats here w. e. b. one of the last week was my interlocutor. When you're talking about almost half jokingly said so you all set with your Christmas shopping and he said well my wife told me you know you only have to get one thing thank meaning of course a present for her and she shopping up for probably the rest of the family and the extended family etc.? Yeah but she also made me feel like I was the last person in the world that did that. Okay wow okay that's important. That's important another strength in numbers. Shame yeah you're the you're the one guy who has this habit the of terra terrible thing and you better straighten up and fly right. I'm GonNa get it all done next week. Okay that's good. That's good and I. After that I sort of felt so guilty guilty actually went out and did a little Christmas shopping myself this past weekend and so there you go I mean it is it is possible guys it is possible people out there. I am going to thank my guest. Very much for coming in Actually Lisa Senegal's been on the phone. The chair of the Vermont Commission on women for sharing doing some thoughts about this issue of the extra burdens taken on by women during the holiday season. Of course it's year round but it seems to really step up during the holidays. And what can I say other than guys. We need to step up ourselves. Our own gave a little bit here. Cathy Murphy also has been my guest here in the studio. She only had to come a hundred yards down the street from our neighbors. The Snow Street emporium here in Waterbury Marie and It's it's great to see you Kathy's well thank you and I wish you both five very happy holidays by the way. Do some relaxation time. Please I I really want you both both in all the folks out there to do that. It's not all about it's not all about just getting the shopping done and Wiley so i WanNa meet you. Were who've worked fantastic store and I don't care if it's really wonderful. Thank you very much already there zero. So we're GONNA shift gears now because I did want to get a little bit more thinking talking about this News event today where the House. Judiciary Committee voted to articles of impeachment against the President President of the United States and with us to join. Join US this morning. Is Bob a one of our commentators National commentators. He was with talk media news for a long time. He's he's now Out is a freelance commentator on the scene around the national news and Bob Good Morning. Good morning how are you doing. I'm doing one okay. Just waiting for Christmas now. Don't just wait. You GotTa Get out there and actually do some. You're you're a guy you need to get out there and do some shopping and ask you why you know. Hey can I help out okay. What what part of the meal can I prepare? You know. I don't like the the elbows and things I'll do mine online share. Oh I see okay. Yeah that's the that's the other way ago well Hey Bob I wanted to check in with you because obviously big news this morning and you are You are I'm sure watching it very very closely. What what are your thoughts? Well they had a fourteen hour marathon yesterday a little bit of inside baseball. I always like to bring these things out. There was a White House Christmas party and they Member saw that that they were going to be missing it. 'cause The you know the the hearing was quote drug out according to the Republicans because because they said Chairman Nadler wanted more primetime exposure so as a result they drug it out longer since they had to miss the Christmas party it went on for fourteen hours. A little a little bit of insight personal stuff. I think the listeners You Might WanNa know. That doesn't count for anything but that's the way it is in DC. So it wasn't how long time and then today's the you know Official Movement on it and then it goes to the House floor He'll be impeached. I I think with no Republican votes and then the end result is going to be the Senate and the big thing in the Senate. Dave is pretty simple You you know. Are they going to fast or are they going to drag it out the president by the way sort of wants a drug out believe it or not the the president actually actually is He was saying last week or tweeting last week. I guess is the best way to describe it that he wanted a fast result in the Senate On the other hand I think on some days he wants to be he wants to get into bringing into Biden's and anybody else he thinks might Might come in for some embarrassment harassment or something What's the current reading here of what he wants holidays? Everybody's talking about bringing in the binds. But the Biden's have no relevance whatsoever. Let let's hypothetically I just wanted to stress hypothetically ear so nobody listening Kinda goes wild on you. Let's say hypothetically that Hunter Biden was wrong in everything he did in the Ukraine. Everything Shouldn't have been there shouldn't have even pointed to the Ukraine on the map. Hypothetically hypothetically okay. That's still raises the question though does the president of the United States have the right or the ability. Eighty to bring up. You know This in a conversation with another foreign president and the suspicion of linking it to foreign eight so no matter what Biden would have done or not did not do. It has no relevance relevancy to the call it doesn't And it shouldn't so I don't see the benefit of bringing hunter Biden in there except politically to damage joe by. Yeah I I guess. I'm GonNa play the devil's advocate. Take a little bit with you just for a moment. And you're a former Republican member of Congress and I'm somebody who's listeners occasionally keeps me of being too liberal at is kind of ironic here. Yeah but I'm I'M GONNA I'M GONNA I'm GonNa push the defend trump here. Well I'm going to push the baby the Jim Jordan Doug Collins Line here for moment And and and it would be like this. Yes That that if hundred did do something worthy of investigating And did something wrong. And and and the president of the United States is as head of the executive branch which doesn't include law enforcement calls up An another you know the head of another country and says hey we have this investigation instigation. Do we want to launch into ex Can you help us out with our investigation of ex The Collins Jordan at center reliance seems to be. That's it's quite all right but see. There's the problem I think is that if in fact that was a scenario With with Hunter Biden. Then I think that the State Department would have every right to be able to mention this that it should be looked at and mentioned it to the president isn't of Ukraine's Top staff our State Department should be able to mention it. As long as there's no tie to foreign aid I I'll and I'll give you the best example in the world I have been on. I know thirty congressional trips. Where at least on those rose thirty trips somebody from the congressional Side Democrat and Republican have mentioned to foreign and leaders and everything else under the sun that you know we have interest. If you continue to do this we may look at Not supporting supporting. You have interest how what where do you stand on Israel. Where do you stand on Cuba? Where did you know so I've seen that one hundred times happened? I think that the the State Department could have done it. I think the president himself. It's off color for him to do it now. The big question is did he tie a quid pro quo. Can they prove that to To cutting foreign aid. That's that's just the the question I think out there that to resolve in their mind. Yeah I I I think that that really is a key question here and I also think I mean I. It has been pretty while resolved in my own. Mind I I I'm not I'm not letting the president off the hook here and I don't want people to think that I am all of a sudden doing that because I mean if you think about this imagine if there were actually a legitimate investigation of some. US person that encompassed another country. This would never rise to the level of any part of a conversation between the two presidents of the United States in that country it would be handled maybe by the FBI may by You know if it were drug a drug thing. Da Va would be doing something You know right or you know maybe by the State Department of involved. You know some kind of counterintelligence thing I mean there's there's just so many levels That you would be handling this way below where the president right Operates it it just it. It is It's a mind. Boggling jumped up to think that all of a sudden the United States the president of the United States is going to get on the phone and ask for an investigation of somebody who got a cushy sinecure job I mean that's just That that is just not even really in the room. So I think they know the answer is was there a quid pro quo. I and they haven't been able to establish it look. I think the call was uncalled for. I don't think the president should have mentioned anything. Yeah about his opponent on the call but they still don't have the nailed down where somebody says. The president ordered me to cut the foreign aid. I think it was our that. The president is why I told them no quid pro quo. He said that to protect themselves. You know but but the question remains you know. I mean people believe it's a quid pro quo. Can they prove it's a quid pro quo. Now they had the president under oath That's a whole different world. Because that's what happened to bill. Clinton he got he got under oath. You know that's true at the time but he did know that that is true and then the failure to get the president under oath I think was a key. Failing on the part of the investigation from our. That's where that's where it should have happened And I and I do I wanna I do WanNa roll the clock back. Speak at all that because You know it's not that back that far but let's think back to the phrase individual one for a moment and we've and refresh us on on on what that was you mean with the The Michael Michael Cohen Michael Cohen ends up urban jail. The Guy He's allegedly conspiring with is the president of the United States. Right and individual one. Yes yes I I still can't understand why the Democrats I mean. I mean if you think if you think this one's a little thin this phone call to the president of Ukraine is a little thin individual one I think in terms of actual You know a real criminal nexus here is is. It's thicker isn't it. I do too. I think they had more to hang on the other thing too now. This is a pure political debate of what I'm about to say but I I oh I think the democratic side should have done everything under the sun in this impeachment. Everything under the sun to drag Rudy Giuliani to the table publicly. Everything and they didn't and I know they didn't It's because they didn't want to go into twenty twenty rudy would've fought it. They would've had to go to court battles. They didn't WanNa go into twenty twenty. You know with all of this out there but I think Rudy Giuliani could have led to you know. Who did he talk to on? Whose behalf would did he talk to anybody about the foreign aid did he talk to anybody in Ukraine about foreign aid? I mean I think that could could have been. I don't know I'm not saying that's the outcome. It would've been by surely think that Rudy Giuliani would have been a treasure trove of information rudy. Giuliani would have been and a lot of would've showed good. Is I'll tell you this whole connects. Well we'll have to let the historians deal with that. We got to at the end of the show here on this Friday morning. Bob Many thanks so much for joining me this morning. I have a great weekend. You that's about it for the day Graham show here. WD FM and am tune in Monday. Morning we're going to have. Mary Powell the outgoing chief. Executive with Green Mountain power on and don't forget to Stay tuned now for Bill Sayer. Commonsense radio in the middle midday news service. Evergreen have a great weekend everybody.