EP 62 PR & SEO : How I grew a startup from 0 to 40M+ page views and got acquired by Google
Today's episode is brought to you by the podcasting club. The community that help you start. Grow and monetize your podcast. I'm a huge fan of podcasting. And i believe everybody should start podcast but the main question that i get from people is how do i actually started a podcast. What is the process shootout. Use these microbes. Mike do actually need to wear headset or something. And i'm just like let's keep it simple and that's why i created this member. She to hope. Bluestar your podcast. In the right way to help you get started to help you. Grow your podcast and help him. Wanna your if you wanna learn more about his membership head over to their podcasting club. Dot com in obviously linked are going to be in the show. Welcome to the she winds. Podcast the place for you to learn the systems and the strategies to grow your business and avoid costly mistakes every week. Your host an amazing guests have conversations that will inspire you motivate you and empower you to show up and make it happen. Learn about marketing. Golding authority lead generation self love and much more with your host marketing and business. Strategist your soon to be business. Vesti tia through saney. Hello everybody walk into today. They're epi. I hope you ought to ingrain. Hope you order in a basin and you're excited for today's episode because today we're talking about pr and seo something that many people including myself. I'm not really into. We don't know how how this works like when someone asked me to write something i get like okay. I don't want to do it. I get a pontiac attack anxieties coming. So today i have on the podcast. Demetri drug dealers and he helps companies do keyword research right article on their website. On cuba's that went around for and do around those are link building all this stuff that he's gonna talk himself about dimitri basically grew a startup from zero to fourteen billion page views. True pr in seo and then got out company acquired by google and obviously he learned a lottery process so basically he applied everything he learned into his recent company code just to reach dot io and is a diy pr software tool which again from zero to five thousand palace paying customers and these customers include airbnb hubs parts sima tech so literally you know what kind of caliber. We're talking about here so just to reach out as well acquired li-literally a couple months ago in december and dimitri in general over the last ten years he published causing five hundred plus articles. Dr that you can find on forbes entrepreneurs wired and many other publications so i'm so excited to talk dimitri here and me and him already had the chance to kind of have a conversation on clubhouse as well so welcome to the show dimitri. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Thanks for such an awesome in tennessee. Lena bed how you actually started he. S your pr. I was just like anybody else you know like in my video. I say i had no background in marketing. A software engineer. I was unhappy in my job. I quit my job. I sold everything i had. I got into my honda. Civic with my friend who is my wife now and we just drove cross country to california because she wanted to go to geico master's degree and it was in california and i was reading a magazine called web two and it was all about startups getting money from investors and they were these young kids in silicon valley. This was two thousand seven. Who's already pretty big industry. They're of course. And i was like i gotta go and check this out you know and i didn't have anything to my name. We just packed up our stuff and we drove across country and stayed in this motel and tried to get an apartment. And i joined the same school that my girlfriend drove my wife now. Middlebury college graduate school there. And i just had i want to get an mba everybody. 'cause i was just like this loader software engineer wanna talk to anybody and like i'll get an mba. And before. i even started the program. I got introduced to this guy manala just sign. He was like he was a graduate of this program and he was. He was from he humidity from india and he kinda self taught entrepreneur. He was number twenty at link thin and he was starting his just getting started going right before he was closing money from investors. I was like oh my god. This is like oh my god. This is amazing and i really try to get job with i was like oh can you hire as like well. Can you do any market. I don't i don't do anything i don't know what the do he's like. Oh here give you a test. We're starting this company. Cross the go. Put up a page on kapiti. And i was like oh okay i guess oh i'll just create a page and he's like if you can keep it up for twenty four hours. You have yourself a free marketing internship. I put it up. I thought it'd be easy. But all these editor started attacking me saying. Oh this is promotion. What are you doing random stuff on wikipedia. You know so. I actually did make up all sorts of things. I didn't know him but apparently he was number twenty and lengthy and and he had accomplish things so i was quickly googling trying to put notes in there and say hey this is a legitimate thing and he was the number twenty linked thin and he's starting you company and he's raising money so anyway. I kept the page up He gave me an insurance ship and in the process of the next two years during my kind of going to school from nba. i a lot of know-how from him. so he he taught me how to pitch journalists. And how to do this on your own and how to figure out what to write. Journalists and how to get conversations going has like gosh. It was incredible start to a career in content marketing. Co pr. because i didn't know anything from any at all and nba really didn't help much either. I mean there was more lake broad stroke kind of thinking that you learn so start quite a wellness pod. Let's say like you had to learn everything while like studying and stuff like that so from there. How did he actually go to paula. That that's actually the company that you. Why isn't there yet was transitioned. You had to go through. So polar polls was a company started by luke w he's a founder of like mobile first movement. If you guys ever heard of lake building a app or mobile version. I before he kinda wrote all the books and i met him so after cross loops across got acquired by left before crossing quiet. I learned a lot from renamo. But i left and i went to go work at a design firm and working at that design firm I ended up Meeting this guy. Luke and i. It's funny actually a cool story. While i was working at the design firm. There's a journalist named walt mossberg. He's kind of like a big name. he was like recode. Vox you know he. He did all things d like he was personal technology. Columnist wall street journal greeley big name right and i saw how mrinal would strike up conversations with him just over like email and i was like. Oh gosh so my first day on my first full time job they were doing like a design. Half or something like that and like. Oh the building design app. I'm going to email walt mossberg. i'm gonna get an interview with him. And he responded to me and i was so surprised like i was a nobody like i. This was my first job and internship is like sure. I'll take a look at thing and we get on this call and i'm like well. This is a design app. Her web designer to get feedback from their clients. He's like i don't. I mean i cover personal tech like i do consumer stuff. What does this this to beat like. Well this is kinda like beat soc- out trying to make it say. This is not accurate at all. Please don't call me again. It was just had like engine years this my day. Three or four on the job. I had like all these engineers scrambling trying to put together. This demo and i was like oh gosh let's learn one. Main lesson learned really look at what journalists really wants to see and try and put your story next in line and see if they really fit. and so. that's where. I kind of learned a lot. But i also met this guy luke. He was starting company polar. So he's like. Hey you're pretty good at this. Pr outreach stuff when to join and you can do pr for us and polar was appalling app just like a little pole. You put it up. He can say. Hey joanne like mcdonald's or burger king or i dunno dunkin donuts starbucks something very similar to to that anybody can put these things up and we just needed to grow it and i didn't know how to do it and i was just figuring things out at night literally. One day was looking at tech me which is like breaking news stories and i was like. Oh maybe i should create polls on breaking news stories and then literally ask them to promote the polls and put them the data and it didn't really work at first because i didn't have any data and they didn't want to put our goals into their stories but what i ended up doing is i started creating like x. Box versus ps four. I'll just create a poll. And then i'll promote it on twitter. I'll pay money to promote it through ads or something get some some data in there and then pitch them and say. Hey you just wrote on this topic. I just have some data. Can you put it in. And so that just worked and so for two years. This is halloween from zero to forty million pages. I literally pitch that same playbook over and over and over again i would email all the journalists any given breaking news topic and say. Hey you just wrote about this. Can you include my poll in. And that's we kept growing and eventually start embedding their polls and we ended up working with npr and tech crunch in all the hearst publications forbes and all the major publications were using us by the time google acquire this and it was just incredible to strike up these conversations with everybody and that was just a turning point. I think it my career. Overall i thought. Oh wow. i really landed on something. That i could just do. For a while and teach beat by launched my course online education platform to help people do the same. Because anybody can do it. You know and then i started building. Just reach out to kinda help. People do it with tools but yeah because everybody can do. But you don't know how to do it. And that's the that's the big and i just want to jump in the bath when you said that you miss age and you email journalist got a reply from him and you didn't expect it. What did you message to kind of. Get you kind of attention. Because obviously he did in some attention even what always you. How did he get attention. Sexual act fair. A few of these samples out. I'll send them to you too. I got actually ashton kutcher also to apply to reply to me later while working as urb-e iran speaker series called serves soapbox and i would try and get really high name speakers to disobey in my interview so manal taught me like when i was across the really study the person likes look at their curiosities their interests and go after quality over quantity approach so most people when they think like. If you're anybody listening to this they think of pr as a large list. The visually in our minds we think of a large list of journalists. And we're gonna pitch all of them at once and we're going to put our our our scoop like what are we doing. We're launching something. We're doing something right. The very notion of that is a little bit broken and archaic because most of those people are not interested in what you have to do what you're saying so what you wanna do. Is you want to personalize it to a level where you're actually striking up conversation with somebody on something interesting and you want to build a develop their relationship more work and immediately as you're listening to this you might be not for me. I don't have time for this. Because i don't see the roi right away because most people psychologically want to see something quick email. I get a response. I don't if i don't i just scale a thousand five thousand ten thousand emails and if i can't get those lists i'm going to go pay a firm to do it or something like that. So that's actually doing more disturbs to more people versus building relationships yourself with you know. Hi lena high profile individuals. And so i kind of started through that per protein. That's all i've done. Is i would look at so would wall mossberg. I look bad. Oh he was talking about the smartphone in the future of the smartphone and i o s six versus seven. I was like oh since you already covered talk about these topics. I had three polls on that day. That's why i and created three more. And i said well i actually ran. Polls on the data information you talked about what do you think of data in my polls and so to him he'd already have covered it and so he was like okay. Be interesting since. I was at the design firm. I wasn't pitching anything around holes. So i again. I was pitching designed app and that was my mistake is thinking. Oh he would cover design app. You've been no. It's not really be to see. It's not a consumer app approach designers and but to strike up conversation. I i used the poll idea that kind of says. Hey you you're interested in that with ashton kutcher. I can show you the email that i sent. But it was literally i interviewed. Maybe five or seven people that he himself mentioned in all his talks at stanford and different kind of talks that he gave. And then i said. Hey i'm a big fan of you of your work in philanthropy that we're investing in startups. I interviewed these five people that you mentioned the lot in my speaker series. Would you be interested in being a six one and So i worked very hard to try and get everyone that he looks up to get on some kinda call with me since personalizing quality over quantity. That's why i always say anybody who's just starting out. There's you know like newsletters that come out. Journalists actually ask questions like harrow. Response sources like tons of these out there we index all of them adjust reach out who allows me to easily search him but you can just subscribe their free and you can just sit back and respond to journalists questions like somebody has a question on e commerce marketing or whatever it is and you can learn what they're asking eventually start building those relationships i think it makes a lot of sense especially as saying like meaning tension on getting more person at all. People initially like say like they go broader like. Oh i need to go through. Maybe hundreds of us more journalists. Before i can even think and people don't even their stuff like you and dairy to kind of go to ashton kutcher. You like kind of you know. Is that mindset as well. You know i would do it. I would try if it doesn't work cool but i'll try a lot of people. Don't even want to try. Because they're already in their mind just like it's not gonna happen. But i feel like you know. It's a mindset as you like i'm gonna go to those people i'm gonna rush to email them. I'm going to try and get the attention anything even if they give me an attention on once when i'm giving it to try and convince them it's not like you know tennessee and that you know keep going kind of my off and i'd like to find. These day is about being intentional before actually reaching out. We've like the lesson that you learned needs to know. What are they is about. What i've been working on so it's been very specific as all on targeting and what we're going to tell them of the kind of reached out to them so it's like getting personal. I i feel like that's something to meet and i feel like i just need to go in there and pitch myself but nowadays peachy yourself out there. It's all about getting personal. People need to know that you care about them that you at their work. What they are doing what they're interested in about. And i think that's what made you successful in your our reaching your pi. The net yeah. I mean personalizing is one is something people forget. And that's hard to do and it takes a lot of time. Some people just don't decide not to but there are ways to kind of speed it up and outsource some of it like you can have assistant like i employ an assistant philippines. That just does research for me. So i tell them. Hey here's a list of links of publications find me. Journalists who cover how to pitch journalism. Pr tools communications that realm and different marketing tools and talk about like give me the latest articles that they've written about look at their twitter profile. And tell me questions that they asked. and so. there's a column for latest articles. Lou this questions in that kind of stuff. It costs me five bucks an hour. I might you know maybe spend two hundred dollars a month or something on that research. You really is worth my time. Because i can work on creating the pitch in the ideas around these things. And then you know like i might write the actual pitch and then i would say someone well. Can you take this pitch in kind of work. It into these details might pay somebody another two hundred dollars to do that. If i don't have any time but if you have time do i do it yourself. Then make it work and then you can scale. It was someone else's assistant. I wouldn't hire anybody to actually send emails on my behalf but doing some of that grunt work research may be creating some templates. It won't be perfect but it'll be somebody who can just do some of that work for you will end then you. The biggest thing is not to get bogged down by negative responses like everything that i've done eighty percent of it ninety percent of it usually just didn't get responses failed was bad idea and it's very easy to get up every morning and say okay. Well i just fell down a whole bunch yesterday and the day before and the week before and i. I haven't really gone the success in like two three months now with anything whether why do why do i keep doing this. And psychologically you're like no. I gotta go back to the last moment where i had success and so it's like but you should keep trying. You just should be changing what you're doing if something isn't working change it to be something new like pitch different angle a different way to strike a conversation email isn't working go to lengthen. Find them on link. Thin struck up a conversation there. Maybe ping on instagram. Maybe clubhouse would be the next thing join clubhouse and go to some rooms where journalists are hanging out raise. Your hand asked a question that you know they might be interested in. You know like just think a little bit outside. The box of oldest. Didn't work out. I must go and hire pr firm. I am not good at it. That's the general thinking behind or like i don't have the expertise really not like can start a conversation with a random person that the conference great lakes. Then you have the expertise to to into pitch a journalist. I feel like you wanna do it january. You know because everybody just day awayday going into like they go in the mindset. I'm going to sell when a train. And i think you always go back to dust so when you going with them mindset you perceive it. Those journalist named no one's going way in with did we had a different way. You're given support when when the already knew and like like is something that's going to support when you're writing or on sunday then is help them kind of thing. They can any way that someone is trying to fish themselves get in on forbes and stuff like that so and you don't have to a lot of people listening to this might be like oh i have to create a whole data source or pull. You don't have to do anything you don't even need to create and you day there around anything you can just say. Hey i have a poll. I'm working on or a have a study and working on in this sector. The preliminary preliminary findings are these and you can just get at what they might be. Are you interested to hear more. So then if you get responses back then you actually go any create that day. This whatever it is that you want to but i have most of my students at pr that converts online course outside of just reach out. That's what they do our customers on just reach out. They just pitch ideas that they think might work. That are in a relevance gap. So it's like what the journalists has covered and what you wanna do and there needs to be something different or unique about what it is and what a by someone is getting started like someone like me. I don't like rights like writing my team. And i don't want it to be my. You don't wanna game. I like talking podcast by what is like someone wants to and games yards and seo. But just don't have that thing that they wanna ride. We have been outright. Yeah so i actually you know those fifteen hundred articles you said people might think of it and say this is crazy. The guy just made all this stuff up like just ridiculous. How can somebody write fifteen hundred hundred this well. A portion of those were actually written by other people on other publications. I just page them. The ideas and they wrote these articles on topics that i pitched them. I just gave him outlines. But what i do is i work with maybe to eight different writers. Sometimes i have more. But in given moment i have seven or eight writers and they know mice like style and when i write about they know and so i also don't love writing all time it's still like i speak russian english. It's not like. I have like a mix of languages usually when i'm writing and so i m i outlined things a lot. Why do i deal notes for them. And what i i'll assign and they'll say okay. I need ten pitchers. Written a here is an outline. And i'll just talk it through. I'll create audio recordings of it and send it off to the writer. The writer gets it writes. It sends it to me. I might give them feedback right in audio too. If i just short on time arm going somewhere. I just literally would give him feedback and we'll go back and forth like that Hiring writers just easy because It only gives you more time. The problem with it of course is that the writer is not you and so your feedback is really important. And you're gonna end up paying a lot of money if you're giving a lot of feedback of course 'cause revisions and so you wanna be just careful about that But in pr the biggest thing would be if you're writing guest articles here. You're going to need writers. If you're writing pitches you might hire one writer or part time writer to just help you. Right pitches If you're not into just written content all that much you're not gonna get that excited when you're on an article written up Is just not going to be. But if you get podcasts or do interviews or video interviews you'll get more excited about it and then you wanna do more about it and so what i would do is just pay pivot towards where you're most excited about. Which would be podcasts. Maybe it be clem. House would be like you know. Maybe video literally your philippine You know assistance would probably need to create lists of those and he just like literally piven focus on those and your pitches would be kinda similar to them. It'll be a the template is pretty standard like hey we covered here you know. Run these things here on my past episodes. Here's things that. I kinda wanna talk to your audience about a udal interest in during like an audio interview with me and then you kind of writing out of it more or less. I mean you might need a writer to write those pitches out by then you kind of just use those features to pitch video audio kinda outlets than just focus on that folks your pr around bat. See how that's working out for you as you're it it won't count like doesn't help always with the seo aspect of it but you know it could. Yeah so basically you can hire someone from five value. Maybe try out. Different writers from five you you by the with more demolished and then hired off personnel design you can. If you're just you need some pitches rewritten and some research done around. Who the target to create a customized list with personalized kind of the emails. Things like that that research ya fibers. Great like any kid from college can sit there and google all day and create a list of lake call. You know here is a list of podcasts. You should pay. here's the name of the host. Here's the personalized starter. On like the last three episodes in what they did you can get the perfect job for a kid. It's like ten bucks an hour. Can you just give me a list of fifty or seventy of these. I think as long as you get pretty good personalized starters written up then and the the key the cobra you hire also right up a little email for you you can change it up on the template. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah so that you don't have to do a lot of that research kind of stuff happening. Yeah yeah because especially leaving behind his joe. It's decoupled logging rights in equal rights derived. You don't own. You have when i think about it and like my mind is just right thing because that's the main it is. Yeah well it's different. It's different what you wanna get out of it to always say like why do you want to do. Pr people come to us all the time they have money. I like my questions whether you doing like why like well. I don't have a goal like i. Just kinda want some on my side. Wanna look legitimate. Can all brand. These are very vague goals. And so you're gonna kinda not know if you're doing a good job at it or what. What do you want to keep with it right. And so i always think of like what's the end result for me. It's always been traffic conversion revenue right. And so i've been an seo person so i've been using addio video and written content all to back links to specific pieces of content on my blonde which ranked number one for my keyword. And then i start getting traffic and revenue from that one piece of content so they do have those writers and i do right but if you know a lot of people listening to this this might seem to advance sophisticated than you. Don't you don't want to jump into this thinking okay. I got a right content. And i gotta get breaking on role in all this stuff. It's like you just start out. Slow get on a podcast or or something. Small siv that translates into any revenue or it might not be revenue might be like followers or traffic to your site or some kind of influx of activity. And do more of it or change it up. That's where i would start Small winds good for like to keep going actually be patient with everything that you do especially because people end of gold podcasting. The banks made me promote the courts. Day and then the next name is so a how we way like along short term goals in the outlook podcast and then on sales. I writes blog. And then it's actually the location inside takes time and effort and whenever we hear out there just so broken most of the time like we don't nobody talks about like failures and ground work. Everybody just kind of works like five or seven years and they're like okay. Now you know this happened. i hear here. I've achieved this thing. Now i'm gonna talk about it. And i go to like i haven't shared enough of like the process. I have been on cast pretty regularly throughout this journey. Just reach out. But it's like. I haven't haven't been sharing as much of leg stuff been failing. I did like failures interview a couple times. A couple podcasts. I'm failing but i just haven't shared like how much work is to just wait. And it's very slow ground type of work where your inbox is usually not very happy notes every time league. Yes you got hundred new subscribers you have five thousand new. It's like it's slow getting going. But anything i tell you. That's what was going to. I went to go in there. And you like what. I did or china today to come in this joining. Yeah i think. I was just doing an interview with thrive global on this too and i guess like a couple of things that kind of stand out for me and i think about when it comes to challenge so challenges for me were acquiring customers ranking on google to try and beat my competition and you know when people say how to write the press release. I come up. I people convert to paying customers. They stay on. We might product as a pain custom because people come and go. They wanna do pr today. They don't wanna do it tomorrow. They have all these questions. Is it gonna work at journalists are going to cover me so you open up. This can of worms of lake. Oh we have a tool to help do pr. Everybody and their mother's like how much time i gonna get when i'm gonna get it. How much work they put in like. It's just the dole. I can't promise anything you know from from journalists sites so those were like constant issues and struggles with it but there are two things that kept coming back to one is. I interviewed two people. Patrick byrne he's founder of overstock dot com and and philip rosedale. He's the guy who built second life which is a very popular game. And so when i interviewed patrick byrne he had the six month mentality so when he was in his thirties or forties. He was diagnosed with some condition where They told him he only has six months to live. And so he reema every evaluated his liping said. Well we're doing. What am i doing day today. Is it worth it Where should i be spending time and effort for the next six months. So that's all. I have on this on this earth and so after six months. They actually told them the. There's a chance they can help them and they gave them another six months so he learned kind of to live six months at a time really evaluated how. He's working what he's doing and made sure that he's the actually passionate about what he's doing and spending the most time where it matters right now because he'll never get back in. The end is like so near the second. One was philip rosedale and he just told me he when we met with him. He's like hey. What are you doing and i was like well. I'm doing the doing this. Pr polar is like. Well let me ask you this. If you're gonna make any money you knew this already. You'll never make any money out of this thing won't get acquire. This thing is just gonna kinda close down the next three years. Would you still be doing it. And i was like probably 'cause i wanna learn how to do this right right but that was like a good question because like i turned around and most people around me were not doing that. They were just they have a job or they get kinda sorta thought this was a good idea and so those things stuck with me and so that's what it was like my anchor driving me through most i guess Banks that i kind of struggled with day today like all customers leaving churn people not staying on not wanting to do pr. Because they don't know they're going to get more problems. Would you know pitching and all these different traffic issues that we were having not ranking on. Google you know partnerships that didn't work out people that promise The they thought their pr. There's just dealing with customers. And in their journey through the product realizing there's a lot of problems with promising pr and making that as a promise. Those were two main anchors. Like i even just reach out with just going to close doors. I'd still probably be doing it. Because i'd be teaching people how to do. Pr and that's what passion. And that's what i kind of want to do. In life. i probably still reapply prioritize. Like work life balance. I still more time with my kids and family than i do working. I talk about it all the time. Educate people on how to do that. And so yeah. I always like like to tell people This because i see people running like today because we are so many apps and everything is just always on you you. You always open up your phone. This is why i have this crappy iphone. Five that You know just dies when you go outside. So i can't really have anything on it. I literally i make calls on it. And i don't want to river even though it's on three g. And that they keep telling me is gonna come down. I might get a flip phone. But it's like just slowing down because everything is pushing you to get more and more and more and more you're kind of chasing something. He chases somebody's else's goals in just coming back to these two things really help. Kind of ground me and Just persevere and do what i been doing and i. I didn't care like if if this had to close down. great. I wouldn't have an amazing to four or five years running it. I would met awesome people without help the whole bunch of people and so be like it didn't close. I would be happy and content with it. And that's why. I kind of do was doing what i think you said is so important kind of remember especially the by as witches in someone else's goals and that's something that we see a lot happening either yourself if you sit down and reflect every time your social media especially myself sometimes sit down and every time. I'm on social media. And i see these new coaches doing this new stuff and doing this stuff and what youtube videos. I'm so influence to follow what they're doing because in my head when he doing is actually the right pathway but is the actually the reality and sometimes i do sit down and think about this thing and kind of l. myself tickets back. That's that's the goal. Don't keep comparing yourself to people out there. Don't keep do going the direction that they want to go. Hand of tickets that back in you know. Go into what you want to do. Think about the things are lying to who you are and what you want to do. So i think that is very important. Actually said it's a lot of people struggle with that. I feel like i. They just don't exactly know what they wanted to do. And they kind of know their strengths but they like. I talked to people in their lake. I kind of want to write in. Okay we'll what do you want to write well and really good at writing. But i don't have a and so then it. It becomes this roadblock but there's like vision and mission workshops and there's just a lot involved there on figuring that part out of lake your. It's your really big strong suit that you're passionate about. How can you actually create an end goal out of it could be a blog or a book or maybe a podcast or whatever so like figuring that out and working on that would probably yield you more long-term by people just kind of leave it there like i don't really know and i'll just go get a job and i'll figure it out later while i get a job and so then all your effort isn't that job and they kind of meander around you really wanna dig deep inside to see like what ticks. What would you be doing if you knew you would never gonna make money out of fame and then it's worth it. It's worth it to just do that thing. Because there is only so many days you just forget in a mundane environments like winter or whatever like you. Just enjoy to inside. Just get up here like open up your inbox. You're like okay. I got a response. All these things And that's like the world's do list for you have and that's what most people that's what they do. They do other people's to do this for because that's what you gotta do. Your day is only this short so you gotta get done so you never the. You are never on your to do list. It's your inbox. So it was on there and people use all these apps but still hilly people are not really questioning like what makes them tick inside whether they want to. Do you know important kind of like stop and reflect these kind of things like in life in general. I like the whole one all these ads. They're constantly telling us we direction. We should go with. Because i'm going to follow someone else's direction we never have the. We don't actually have the time to kind of think about where we wanted to go. Because that's the reality if you actually trying to take a different direction and you may get out of your job. I must be. Their job is bad by the time we are in the job. And i remember back in the days when i used to have a job i used to think. How can i make these end. Faster can be day. come to an end. When is the we can come in cutting. Come faster so you kind of always seem be on this kind of our roadway. Just can't wait for everything to move too fast. Yeah and you're only have so many days you don't actually want to push your age aging process faster right but you kinda want these days faster. You're you're spending most of your life doing stuff that you're kinda sorta and you got to figure it out like you. Can't you need a salad. You need money to live on your new business or whatever you're doing isn't going to flourish overnight. So that's i mean it's a challenge. It's not easy. But i would still work on that because even though it's hard at least you're doing something that you're really really passionate about and you really want to do and it shows i feel like overall it should. It's maybe it's just a small pivot you though so let's go back to you know. Pin's you some action the holly snus matching take feel. Yes so the first thing. I would say if if you've never done before i would definitely recommend going to help a reporter out or journal. Requests which is hashtag big to use journal requests and there's also response source those three jornal requests helper reporter al joyner requests and Response source these are newsletter. Aggregate were journalists bloggers. Podcasters are put not questions every single day. And there's thousands of them on any given topic. So if you're listening to this and you're really a big expert and i dunno environment and pollution that you would type those keywords in and you would see all these questions from cnn and forbes and other smaller publications specifically around that and so if you can answer those things great if you are an ecommerce entrepreneur marketing expert great within marketing ecommerce. And you'll get questions. Every single day started doing that because a you get to see what journalists and bloggers are asking about. Be your chance that being featured somewhere because you're subject matter expert and you're just responding to journalists you'll need to think of a story to page you don't need to create lists so people this is free. It's easy simple and really get your feet wet. Npr gets you some hits. So i would. I would start there as like thinking about promoting yourself the next thing. That is an actionable tip. I would say start thinking about. Just what do you want to do with this. Pr like how do you want this to help you with your business. And what is the long-term approach here and that's where you would start kind of pivoting. Npr that converts Course when i work through these calls with students this comes up a lot. They get three four mentions then they come on the call the on call and say hey dmitri what what do i kind of need to do here and i was like okay. Well what do you want to do with pr. What is what is want to do it. I are like well maybe revenue would be one thing or maybe it's just building my image as a thought leader. This will be another goal but really figure out the goal right and then star working towards that goal so if it's revenue than you need to be producing content that's ranking high on google that constantly pulls in traffic that's important if it's just image building then you might be writing but doing guest articles or you might be doing podcast. Appearances by working on that goal is really important and from that role kind of figuring out what it is. You wanna do I know this one is a little bit of a like a big picture type of action item. It's not necessarily something tactical you can implement right away but it's important because then you figure out what you wanna do and you can always ask me what you wanna do. Read one of the articles guides. But it'll come to you. It should come rather than aunt natural and you can always ask send an email to me and ask But you know like image building. That means you're just being on podcast interviews in your guest articles you submitting content everywhere because your image is what you write about and talk about and if it's revenue than it's not so much appearing all over the place. It's literally traffic in and convergence so to get traffic end. You're either doing ads or you're doing organic and together ganic through content. You gotta rank on google and another to rank on google. You got to wink to content constantly so that piece of content keeps ranking higher. So those are like some things that i would start out with can give you more but i think as anybody who's starting out i've seen the so many times those are good things to take away. Think about get your feet wet with then reach allen i can send more tips more action items more things that you can like start implementing 'cause it's it's overwhelming. Sometimes you hear somebody talk about stuff to do. I don't know there's just stuff coming at you all the time so i don't want to give too much. We wanna keep this in causley. You know you cannot. Should he do it because a lot. In china we must be the end up doing that. Thank thank you so much for. Does the end. how it's they can go to my site. Kerm inally prolific dot com criminally prolific. That comes so prolific. it's criminal. That's how my wife named it. Currently dot com. There's a contact link there. They can check out pr converts which is my online education platform. Which i am focusing. Most of my attention on now The cliquot like a chat icon. Erica can send a note on. Pr that converts But yeah those are my two sites criminally prolific dot com. Pr converts maintenance gonna add on his details in the link in the description was mentioned all the resource them. Dmitri talk about checked any description mugging. I can stay in the show notes like watching youtube yet. Check the show notes on and he tells has getting. I would say like. Don't your rates to reach out and ask questions and it's important. You need to meet trees one of those people who's opened kinda support and you. You need anytime you have question. Now help you help. Customers who left us We're not paying us any money at all. I still go back and forth on them. I still help them. People that email me with questions alva- respond to most people You know if they have a question about pr and point them in the right direction. Yeah and also check out opposite. He's course yard advert make sure to gain to be. Is you know already. But i think the even going for team like you and all that stuff or you actually do podcasting you just go and then easiest to perform for you like each same people so kind of like when it with dimitri like always say. It doesn't cost anything question. Is you have any. Because i know nate in be like a little bit Dumped just like dumb question doesn't have any but no ask away fine. I was in your shoes. Like two thousand seven or eight failed down so many times trying to pitch. And i sent all sorts of things too fearful. I had all sorts of ideas about journalists. Wanna see and want to know. I would come up. I would send like letters to Like right out letters. Try and find their address. Put like stickers. I just i had also so weird ideas of how a journalist might want to see daddy steaks and you can avoid them by. Just reaching saying if dea that's like a little bit off caliber just ask me. I'll tell you it's gonna worker some stuff works you know. Grasshopper did an awesome campaign. Where they put. I think crickets their chocolate covered. And they are grasshoppers and grasshoppers. Grasshopper is like a phone company but it's the name as grasshopper so they put real grasshopper hoppers. They were dried dipped in chocolate. They put them in letters and they just sent them to all of these journalists and bloggers so all of these journalists and bloggers got letters. Go chocolate covered grasshoppers. That's crazy and they got tons of press and pr on that cnn. Orbs not dust series. I it's kind of like funny like oh look at what happens. This brand is doing like stunts like that. Were usually it's hard. It's like hit or miss like you can do hundreds of these but thank you so much but sherry nods valued today. Thanks for having me. We hope you enjoyed today's episode for more resources. Checkout www dot. She wins mastermind dot com. And don't forget to subscribe rate and review. See you next week.