Better Call Saul | Season 5, Episode 9 Recap: Bad Choice Road


Better Call Saul season. Five episode. Nine bad choice road is over. But we're just getting started here at post show recaps. Hello again everyone. I am Antonio Navarro and I'm joined on this good choice road by my friend. Josh Winkler Josh. Our you until you tell me that again. Just tell that again. We're on well. The road of good choices car died on the road and I just here I am just one more time would be great if you could just tell me like all of that just one more time you know. I was going along the road. It's a it's a good choice road There's a lot of good choices longer. I made good choices. My car broke down because they're bullet holes in this podcast. I don't we definitely need to talk about Jimmy McGill versus. This is the Wexler versus McGill. That scene at the end a so tense so tense. I finally unclenched here a couple of days later and I'm not even going to say what I was clinching because it's bad I mean a lot of a lot of pain episodic K. goals. This is very difficult this episode the end of it very difficult We've been saying it's difficult for a while. At what point Josh. I want to ask you this right up from the jump. At what point do we say you know what Kim Wexler is made her own choices? She's in the game now and she knows what what she's doing and why she's made her own choices. It's time to stop being nervous for Kim. Wexler like she some Damsel in distress and start saying Kim gets what she gets. This is her choice at this point. I mean that that that can be true simultaneously with. I don't want anything bad to happen to Kim. Wexler like in the same way that Jesse pink man made bad choices in God and really deep. He Killed Gale Becker. He made that choice split. That's breaking bad. We talk about breaking bad here. Not GonNa Tower spoiler alert and breaking bad. It's fair game. All that happened already. Why are you watching? Better call without breaking bad knowledge. He killed he killed gale. Shot him in the face and like I still didn't want him to spend a year in Nazi torture. I still didn't WANNA him watch Andrea get shot in the head. I still didn't want to see all of the terrible things that were happening in his life. And I don't want any of that to happen to Kim. Even if maybe Kim should be heating some of the wisdom from some of the other people around her some of the people who maybe are sensing that Jimmy is is no good and maybe she is sensing it a little less easier than than she should be. I think she knows though I mean I think there's the sense is definitely there. I we have to talk about Kim. Wexler in the context of the choices that she makes for sure she loves loss. 'cause Kim Wexler. She loves a loss. 'cause she will pursue a lost cause at her own expense pro bono by the way. This is something that she will put her stake in so it is no surprise that we've talked at length this podcast or that she would be interested in. Mcgill the way that she is be there for him as a partner the way that she is when she tells. Lolo in this incredible scene at the end of the episode here that by the way he didn't lie to you he doesn't lie to anybody he doesn't lie to his clients. She knows that's a lie. J. Knows that's a lie. But lalla knows that's a lie to wallow has just seen Jimmy the whole dog and pony show for judge by the way about las fake family so Llanos that McGill is a liar and what he knows when he hears that out of Kim's mouth. Is Kim as a liar as well. So Kim knows everybody in the room knows that the Jimmy McGill is a liar. That's all goodman is a liar. No matter that Kim says the name and actually says he saw goodman she knows the truth about. What's going on there so I just? Her eyes are pretty wide open. I don't think at this point anyone's pulling the wool over her eyes about. I don't think Jimmy comes home out of the desert alive. And she finds coffee. Mug with bullet holes in it and she gives them the opportunity to come clean and even says I don't need you to and then he tells her a half truth. She knows she knows who she is. She literally in bed with I. Don't at this point. I don't feel like anyone was being pulled over her. Is she starting to pull the wool herself? Yeah but do you think that that equation changes by the end of this episode? This is very quick baiting Lee but also accurately putting the headline for my interview with Tony Dalton who plays Lallo that better call Saul just had its very own. I'm the one who knocks moment that it's not just Heisenberg. Who has the monopoly on being the big bad boogeyman here comes? Follow the monster in the House as Tony Dalton described it to me in his in his interview with me where he's talking about how this is like temple sacred space. It's Kim in Jimmy's apartment. They've had fights here but they also eat ice cream and watch westerns and atticus finch is going to trial and all sorts of stuff. That's you know very much their lives in very closely connected to just what they've got going on and now a cartel ban is in the Spanish seemingly ready to like rip Jimmy's face off if if he doesn't like what what he's selling like you feel the danger in this moment you talked about the clenching. Antonio you did. He'll never forget that you discussed the clenching. I couldn't watch the scene. I had to listen to it. I was listening to the scene knowing that. Mike is across the way with the sniper rifle knowing that Kim keeps walking into the into the shot knowing that Kim is not on breaking bad for whatever reason that is and constantly afraid that this character. Who even if she's making horrible choices. Somebody who I loved dearly in terms of my lake fictional family might fictional character family. I Love Kim. Weser what to see. No harm happen to her. And it's largely thanks to racy fantastic performance in the writing of her and it was one of the worst things that I had to sit through on television in quite a while and I've watched the news recently So it was. It was just recently and I had to look away. I have like my headphones on so is literally staring at the ground. Emily was in the room with shows. Like what are you doing? What is wrong with you? I can't talk to talk to me right now. Things are happening. Pretty sure someone who I care about. It's about to die so what it's a TV show. It's going to be fine. And that was the feeling that I had. And by the end of it after. She gives the performance of her life. And convinces Lallo to leave. Allow does leave that look. That's exchanged between her and Jimmy. Is that not a look of recognition of okay too far too far. I'm getting off of bad choice. Road exits here. I know it's a little late. But the the best time to leave was yesterday second-best time is right now possibly the thing about it is in that moment what it felt like to me. Is that Lolo? The Monster and the house was very slowly. Chipping away at what Precious Little Sanity Saul Goodman Aka? Jimmy McGill hat When we saw the scene earlier in the episode Jimmy McGill is having very serious issues with. Ptsd with the problems. He's experienced from his time in the desert. He talks to Mike. Certainly not the best therapist about this problem. Although Mike is able to regurgitate some wisdom that he heard it one of the support group meetings that he goes to was Stacey Mike does not. He's not the most sympathetic here. Let's just say this. Jimmy says what like billions of people on the planet earth and I had to be stuck to you as the only person I can talk about with this So Jimmy has certainly suffered this episode and when Lalla was applying the pressure it seems like each time the Jimmy starts to tell the story he tells it a little bit differently. I than obviously on one level the writing is suggesting that the Jimmy Gill Way to do this is to try to talk his way out of trouble by changing the details a little bit not changing the heart of the story but adding some details like oh. Your cousins. Were very nice. Oh Yeah and then I did this Oh just trying to embellish slightly to hope by embellishing slightly. The thing we'll change lava eventually cuts to the point. Says they're bullet holes in your car. What do you think it sounds like? Jimmy's about to crack he has previously. Said you want the money if you want the money back. It's in a bag in the other room. You can have it. What we know also is. What else is in the bag in the other room? Is the Coffee Cup with bullet holes in it? Kim knows this as well correct because Kim knows this as well I think at that point what she standing up and doing is saying. I'M NOT GONNA get US killed like I'm going to stand up and say no no money. No bag you get out of my House. Lallo like you get your own house in order. I think her intervention there is is to protect their necks. I don't think it's To basically th that she is I think she is in that moment displaying. The ingenuity that is needed to actually be a friend of the cartel to actually be the kind of person who can work this year. What I want to know from you is God by the end of that episode. You're talking about the look between Jimmy and Kim As like I'm out my question for you is lola leaves. We don't know what his agenda is. He's going to go to a different place in Mexico. Whatever the conversation that he had with Kim when Kim really gives them that come Jesus talk the same talk. She's given Kevin Wachtel The Saint Talk to an extent that she's given rich Schweickart We see this come to Jesus talk from Kim to Lolo it has some effect is Lal impressed by this. Or does he see her as a threat Where do you think is Visa Kim at the end of this episode? And where do you think Kim is allow? It sounds to me like you're saying that she might look Jimmy and saying that's the last Straw. I think she might be going further down the rabbit hole here. Oh God I hate that but what you put in my head Antonio and I. I don't know how you get there. So if you can string theory this out for me if you can get like all of the get the blackboard up We're trying to figure out we're trying to figure out why Kim isn't on breaking bad. Is it because breaking bad? Just didn't show us. Any more of Jimmy McGill other than the Saul Goodman Veneer. And she's not associated with that. Is it that simple. And like she's still in his life but we just don't see her. Is it worse is it? Death is worse. Did she get disbarred and she wants nothing to do with Jimmy. Is it worse? She went with the vacuum cleaner. You know and got Ed Galbraith data town and is going to pop up in a future gene seen Hashtag no gene seen or and this was one that had never even occurred to me until you talked about how this is Kim showing the ingenuity of what it would be way to be a friend of the cartel is there a world where Qin becomes cartel lawyer or is she running yeah or she running Saul Goodman like as she basically the boss of the boss right and I say that because the the shell company that Jimmy Uses Esau Goodman in breaking bad is called ice station Zebra Associates. It is has been seen throughout the Better Call Saul Universe as a nod to Kim Wexler and has a nod to his relationship with Kim. That was a reference to of her father's favorite movies a reference that is mentioned in better call Saul and it is something that when she and Jimmy run a scam on one of the marks that they meet the hotel. Maybe the Tequila bottle mark himself. They have the him make out the check to ice station zebra associated so the question is is there a through line not just in name only or not just in some kind of loving connection to Kim? But she's the one who brings up to low at the end of the scene. Have you never heard of shell companies? And you've never heard of the Cayman Islands. Considering the fact that she mentioned shell companies. We have the shell company that is named in reference to her and as a thing that she is that she is connected to and considering how she calls. Lolo fully out on the carpet there. I don't think by the way that anything she said. Other than the fact that's all good man doesn't lie. I don't think anything she said was untoward or undeserving. A Philip loud. There's a possibility Lila walks away from that conversation. Saying you know Goodman's fine. He's good at what he does but she's she wears the pants in this relationship. Yeah I just had never really considered that as a possibility. That could be what he's walking away from it with. I I get the sense that a lot of people literally la literally dodged a bullet. Maybe Jimmy Kim did as well by Kim doing what she does and getting out of the room I think Lilo leaves and Jimmy and Kim are not really thought to him anymore. I'm sure that he will reverberate in their brains for a good deal longer. Yes and I am. I am you know. I would not be surprised if they've remained factors in his thought making his decision making but I I don't think that they are the most pressing thing like when he says to Nacho going back to Mexico. But they're not going back to two where they just were going somewhere else that. I think he's got something else in mind. He knows that. Like something fishy is going nine. And he wants to regroup whether or not. That's because he specifically wants to like dig into Jimmy and Kim more. That just doesn't feel right to me as far as his next step. It doesn't to me either. It just what made that enter into my head? A little bit was wondering like how in response to what he just experienced in that room. How does he know to change his plan? And what does he change it to? And of course part of my thinking in that regard is does he change it to something? That is terrible for the people that we care about for Jimmy and Kim like does. His pivot here means that those two are going to be even more endangered than they. Just were like. He walks out of that room and saying she's trouble like she has her head on straight and he's traveled because he's weak but he's good enough to lie to me and he's dogged enough to drag seven million across the desert and by the way there were bullet holes and I know neither see nor hear what pulled him out of that desert with those bullet holes so he's working with someone else and if he's working with someone else and I can't trust him either like I have to watch my back and they're part of what I have to watch and that so that's the biggest concern but my secondary concern or my secondary wonder is like maybe he walks out of their thinking. Man She just read me straight to fill like she knows like all the worst things about me and she called me outright on the carpet and she had the guts to do it. That's the kind of person I need on my side. These are my lawyers. This is my legal team. Beathy reaction that people get from. That's like tends to be the reaction to Kim. Yes like when Kim Wexler Spradlin? Yeah but like when Kim Kim dresses people down like often like either like you know. They're shaking in their boots afterwards. They're like impressed and they want more of that right so you can. You can see that beam take a lot to get lallo shaking in his boots great boots so they may be but I think for him to be impressed by her Yeah I could see him walking away from that interaction like I like her. Yeah already sort of was right. Even though I think he had the upper hand against her win she came to the jail to try to get the information from him and they have that great shot of course of him standing behind her slightly out of focus while he stretching out looking like a serial killer. I mean literally like some Hannibal Lecter. Shit like looming over her shoulder and the look on racy. Horns face just petrified She really played that well like okay. She was ready to come in here and she bucked up and got her self prepared to have this conversation with this killer but she was scared by the end of it but this time she says let's face it. Everybody knows you killed that guy like she is not intimidated in that moment at all. Jimmy is stammering and he's about to give up the shop and she is ready to step up and shut it down and provides I think in the moment very quickly a very plausible explanation by the way Kim able to sweep that up almost instantaneously. Mike. Victor no-one on that end was able to sweep it up without an instant like they had time to clear that car away in the didn't like that's a major fumble isn't it. Yeah for sure for sure unless it's like how did they get back there? Did they not know exactly where that was anymore? Like the reason why Mike was able to track that before was because he was literally tracking Jimmy. They don't have that anymore. They don't have the ability to go back to that exact spot you know. It was on the road so because it was on the road. I feel like that's how lawler was able to track but the risk of like having somebody who going around there bullet he did have the flat flat flat of other cars away. Yeah very very good seasons fifty two level really really good but I did bring the flatbed out. They say like all the cars are gone right so they just left. Jimmy's there to yet. That does seem like a big oversight well and it was the other part of this is this is certainly not let. Let's nitpick better call Saul but I was thinking about it when we were back in the desert this time because what we have is. We have a lot of watchers watching. We have a lot of people. We see scenes of gusts men at various times. Following Nacho around Mike just seems to know that Lilo is on his way to Jimmy and Kim's so there is on these people constantly right and it made me wonder like how in God's name what what happens like how did Mike know exactly to get on that Ridge at that time. How did he get into position so quickly and be able to draw a bead on those people in the middle of the desert where there's literally very little cover like? I don't understand how he was on that Hill. We didn't talk about it last episode because we were just so in all of the way it was constructed. But just looking back on it now with Lallo. And Nacho in that Desert Anoxia Lolo having a sort of six cents himself saying lawyers said his car broke down. We just went through that entire area. I didn't see a car. Where was it like? Shouldn't I've seen it by now so I do think it's interesting that that Mike is able to just draw beat on lallo constantly I don't know when the man sleeps but he is seemingly on high alert watching every move when I say this because I want to transition slightly. We'll we'll we'll talk about more about him and Jimmy for sure but I want to transition slightly and ask you like Laos has. He's going to Mexico. He changes his plan slightly. He was always going to go to Mexico. But it's going to deeper Mexico. Whatever that is because it's different than New Mexico Bush. We don't talk about deeper Mexican. We don't talk about Mexico. That's all we talked about. Nothing happened happened in deep state Mexico. Please don't say deep state you're going to trigger me speaking of triggers The the situation with Lalo there some plan in play we talk last week a lot about who could have set up Lolo To have that money stolen like who would have had to beat on that. We found out this boy. One BOLSA Bolsa. My boy won't balls golf stimulating his way through cartel life Just just living the good life lock vida loca the crazy life and he's just hang down there and Gus knows right away when Mike says these guys were hired out probably Colombian Gaza's like I know who it was and he calls them up immediately and all but says like Oh. Yeah that's too bad. That LALLA was coming South here. I guess that means your problems are going to stop now. It doesn't seem to. You is your read on that one. Bolsa tried to intercept the bail money because he wanted Lallo to stay in jail because he wanted everything between gus and Lal Stop and this was an easy way to do it. Yeah that makes sense that tracks right there. That's a pretty tidy explanation that he could sell Donald Donald Patio. We know that he loved Hector Salamanca at the very least so I could see. Probably a big wallow guy. I would expect that. Make sense right so to kind of like cleanly. Get Out of the picture. Just take that money out. Bailing him out isn't an option. We don't have to go nuclear yet and like get him killed in prison. That's going to cause a lot of problems. This seems like a fairly reasonable bloodless way at least in terms of major players on the board. What's one dead lawyer right? So yeah it makes a lot of sense at that and he likes working with gusts that will ultimately be to his detriment in again despoil. Breaking bad won't work out well for one Bolsa there you know because of his continued working relationship with gus but for now he sees guesses like the rational guy to work with the actual profiteer will. Yeah Gus GUS EARNS GUSTS EARNER GUS is really generating that revenue and that sort of what bought one. Bolsa says is okay. Chicken the chicken man and the chicken makes it says. Oh baby like he says. I guess now that you know your problems gone. You're fine you're going to be okay but it seemed like Juan Bolsa Lallo on the board. I'm wondering do you think that's Lalo? His sniffed out. Like who would WanNa take me off the board if it wasn't a chicken man if he if he wasn't coming at me and he wasn't involved in this. I would imagine that lawler would probably think okay. If somebody tried to steal my money it was probably the chicken man but to the chicken know where my money was coming from and win like this is their or was it more likely. It was someone associated with the cartel. Right does he. Does he know for sure. It's not gusts is. He's still thinking about gusts as a possibility there. That's what I'm wondering like when you when you're getting back to like when we get back to whereas Lallo headed and what his plan would be. I think it's at least possible that he's considering that it's someone other than us but he has to figure what happened was okay. Someone tried to get this money. From McGill they shot at him. He got away did he. Get Away with someone's help. I don't know who could have gotten the money from him. And who would have tried to get the money from him and not my cousins like I don't know he's probably that's where the worker and his head and he may. What he may be doing is he may be saying. We're going further south because he may wanNA weigh it ought to. He May WanNa lay it all out to Juan Bolsa. He may want to say. Can I kill the chicken man life? Somebody tried to to seal my money like I had all these problems with him. Can't I just take him off? The board. The chicken man is like front and center in his brain. He goes and sees hacker. Salema probably the last time that he will ever visit with his uncle and he says like we're going to find ways to take the chicken may down. Don't you worry about that? Everything that's his will be ours and we know that that's not true But it seems like he has not lost sight of that so he may be going to the cartel to appeal and say. Can I take this guy off the board? I'm sick of this place and we've been talking last little while about envisioning scenario where. La doesn't make it out of better call saw when Jimmy shaking in his boots in breaking bad in his first episode and Better Call Saul and he talks about Lolo and Agnosio that he doesn't know that Lallo is gone. The deck is set for that right now right like it makes a lot of sense for for us to be going into a finale next week where you could imagine that. Lalla just scared the shit big bad wolf to his way through Jimmy. Kim's apartment left leaves them? I'm sure we're going to deal with the huge fall out of that will be a big piece of the finale. How that shakes out for their relationship. I expect to be a huge piece of the finale. And you can imagine a scenario then where they're terrified of Lolo forever even if they never see him again and it's just enough that the specter of Lalo looms large after something like that and those going south to make that pitch to Donald Addio one balser or both and in the process just like eats a bullet sandwich instead so that could be. That could make a lot of sense like if he goes down there and one ball says there and he's making the pitch to Donald One balsa about choose me. It's near chicken man. Well of those four people that were talking about three of them make it to breaking bad for sure right. So yeah it's you're right about that and it was like we were just saying like the chicken man's at earner and we already know from this season of better call. Saul that one while he seems to like Lallo knows. The lawler is a bit of a liability. The travel wire murder low hanging fruit. Do you see it. Yeah go for it. Lalo ability Lau ability sounds like a musical genre. Interrupted Intelligence Continue. It really does sound like a musical genre liability. This is but no this is this is something is already considering like even though he seems to like the guy the travel wire murder alone the very thing the seven million dollar bail was four is something that also has already sort of said to follow like. Hey look we don't do things that way on the side of the border and I think part of Gusts Strategy. Because Gus clearly has one with. Lalo is some kind of rope a dope. It's like you know what will help them get out of jail like we'll let him burn our place. We'll burn it down for him We'll let our dealers get arrested like we'll make it clear that he's really screwing with us so that we are just quietly taking the punches. Were not responding. We can't be seen to be responding is what he tells Mike but my question is like what is gus ultimate plan. That's what I was saying last week when I said it was possible that gus was involved with the money being stolen. He has some plan and the plan wasn't simply. I'm going to get Lalo in jail and then whoops I'm going to have to change my plan in reading bailed out like he was okay with getting him bailed out and it seems like his plan is to throw them at the mercy of Donald Audio and Juan Bolsa. Is that what it is well? If that was what the plan was it there has been. There's there's you know you got a little fly in my appointment. Right by the fact that one in my Biz we call this scooping. You got scooped right like you know. Basically one one Boston beat them to the punch that he decided to make no surprise the volume with which Lallo makes his announcement to the world that he's going to draw the attention of a couple of people who would like to turn that. Dial down that Gus Springs Plan for however he was going to counteract. Lalo is now aligned with one. Bolsa FOR SURE. They both clearly want a similar thing but it it based on the interaction between gusts and Balsa and by proxy of Gus Mike and one Balsa being in that equation. It seems like they were not you know in cahoots on this thing. So whatever is that. Gus was initially planning for. Lalo if he had a plan. I think now we'll just get it. Theoretically anecdotally right like whatever it was he was planning now significantly railroaded. That's interesting. I feel like it's still in play like that's that's the problem that I'm having. This is a I mean. I guess not because he does get bailed out and if that's what he wanted he wanted he wanted him to just build out so the thing that he wanted to have happened has still happened right. That's that's the thing is I? Gus fring smarter than I am at this point especially with regard to murder plans. And what he what he has been dealing with all season. Long is the Lilo Lilo low problem right the Lalu conundrum like what do we do about this guy. He hates me. He's coming after our business. He's a lot more aggravated and aggressive than some of these other people who just wanted to take the money off. The table right in front of me were pushed me a little bit or have problems with our deliveries like this is a guy who is significantly putting my business in jeopardy diming people out. I'm losing billions of dollars. Of course he's going to do something about it. Here's what happened so right now in post show recaps. We have some special edition. Final fantasy seven remake coverage happening here on the podcast. Japanese ROLE. Playing game remake of a classic. It's fantastic guy that many sleepless nights playing it and I've beaten it already. Hit me up in my instagram. Dm's if you WANNA talk spoilers there's another game in the final fantasy series called final fantasy eight Antonio and finally final fantasy eight Antonio. It's called final fantasy. Eight Antonio and Helena and in final fantasy eight Antonio as all the other final fantasies that are not named Antonio you get like summons like you can summon creatures to join your battle to to fight your bad guys and fight your fights with you in battle and typically since the word summon indicates it. You're summoning them. You're making the active choice to bring them to your side of the battle. But and final fantasy eight Antonio the Odin someone who is a recurring character franchise he trance. He's played differently in this game. Where rather than summoning Odin what will happen is? You're in the middle of a battle and obviously in the battle your goal is to destroy the bad guy and at the start of your battle without you choosing to do anything. Odin just shows up and he just rolls through the battle and apparently his goal that is completely uncoordinated with yours. And you have no control over. He also wants to decimate the bad guy but he just is choosing his own timing and he's choosing his own method. So Gus Spring is the player us in final fantasy Antonio and one Balsas Odin charging through the battle and he wants the bad guys debt as well. I believe the same mission accomplished the Lalas out of jail. Lawa's getting handled. We both want the same thing ultimately. We're fighting for the same team. I'm wondering if by getting the events set in motion to get low put in jail and then putting him having put in a position where all he can do is skipped bail so he has to go back to Mexico. If Gus is in basically saying I'm going to serve you Laos Lamonica on a silver platter and then Odin if you WANNA take him out go for it. This is final fantasy eighty Antonio. You're certainly in your bounds of doing that. Like this is the thing that you do in this game So you take him out little. Do you know Odin that. Even though that's different in this game I actually summoned you like even though final fantasy puck this little low hanging fruit. Odin Kirk Own Kirk yes. That's the Star Trek Crossover Yeah this I think is a thing. I think his plan was to make Lalla Salamanca a liability and to to let himself get beaten up to show that this is bad for business overall right because that's what they wanted to do. Lalla wanted to say the chicken man's bad for business and we gotta get rid of him. That was Lao's plan and Gus realized that was his plan and said they liked their money. So I'm going to make it clear that follow is the one. That's bad for business. That Lalo is the bigger liability. How do I do that? I'm going to put him on the hook for that travel wire thing then. I'm going to get him bailed out and make it so that he is in Mexico in that the heat is on him and he can't come back here at that point. I know we don't do things a certain way on this side of the border. Maybe we can do them differently on the other side of the Brian. What he says to Mike in this episode is after he gets back. Our actions must be unimpeachable. Basically saying like I can't be seen to have come at this guy but I'm gonNA come at him. I'M GONNA make sure that he gets taken off the board. Nobody can know it was from me though like nobody can so. He's trying to guide with his hand. The goal that he wants he's got. He's getting people to do what he wants them to do. I think that one Bolsa is not just intervening with his own goal. I think the goal that he's having has been accepted into him by Gus fring. At least that's what I want to read. It is because the other way to read it is gus wanted to be in jail and then pivoted because why. Lolo decided to have Nacho burn down on L. P. H. Like I just don't see that as as likely God has a plan. We're going to see in this final episode. What the execution of that plan is. I don't think there's any reason not to make gus out to be this monster. If you're going to have anybody take Lallo off the board. That's who you have do it. You don't have one bowls do it? You have if you have to do it. It's because of framing. That's your big bad. That's the guy that you want to spend the time building up so I just feel like we're still going to see exactly what that plan is and I don't know what the final act on it is but it does involve a lower being in Mexico. What about a wither Agnosio Josh? Just along for the ride. Unfortunately Worki- we in a position where agnosio comes off the board in. Do you think in this next episode. We've been talking about it forever. Have we reached a point where that is most likely or? Does that still less likely. Now I still think he has to be fearsome in a way that Jimmy is concerned for Agnosio in breaking right. And he's he has not hit that level for me so the fact that he is going down to Mexico and if he is with Lilo and we're also saying Wallo could be dead as soon as next week if he goes to Donald Audio and says hey him or me and he gets his ticket punched. Do we just kind of like. What's the continuity explanation? Do we care about that. How much do we care about that? If agnosio gets burned as well as a part of this I don't know it's it's a little murky for me with with Nacho. Right now I would be pretty disappointed to lose him soon. I think that he should Feels like there's a lot more life in the character and a lot more story potential there for me. What do you make of the conversation between Gus and Mike were? Mike actually makes the pinch like Nacho Varga. He's done what he said like. Can we get him out now? And and of course we talk about. Gus has the dog metaphor which is not great. What do you make of that whole conversation? Is Mike GonNa go to bat for nacho anymore? Or did he lose this battle and thus the war is over and nachos. Just kinda screwed at this point yeah. I think it makes sense to me for Mike to lose the NACHO battle that Gus will consume the Nacho and Mike is left with some lesser snack in that lesser snack is Jesse Pink Man for example because we will see Mike have kind of Investment Jesse in a way that like maybe that is born somewhat out of like him feeling like he didn't get to stand up enough for Nacho that he didn't get to go to bad enough for NACHOS. Something bad happens to Nacho. This is a good argument. I think. For NACHO getting getting got relatively soon that Mike wanted to pull Nacho out they did not pull Nacho out Najah gets pulled in deeper Nacho gets killed and Mike feels awful about that and like has has it out with gusts in. I don't know if he's going to have that with gus again. But if there's some level of you can assign some of that like residual leftover nacho regret onto. His relationship had that by the way that the leftover nachos regret. You take these scoops. Some of that molten hot cheese is and you. Place it on the pink plate and that that explains partly at least some of the energy that might cast words Jesse and breaking bad. Here's another young man who has gotten in the game for sure but like I don't WanNa see this kid like throw his whole life away for this and especially if he's like seeing it happened before well it's fascinating because you're right about that and I think there is that connective tissue there and I think it's it's not even DNA that That you have to dig deep. It's not that ancestral like Generational like The DNA where they have to find your relative and track you down that way. This is a direct hit because gus in this scene and Mike talk about whether fear is an effective motivator throughout breaking bad of course even though especially with episodes like box cutter Fear is an incredibly effective motivator for Gus fring. He repeatedly talks about how he doesn't believe. Fear to be an effective motivator. This is the thing that got says throughout breaking bad a lot and the fact that he doesn't say that that is not his default to have fear being an effective motivator and he straight up. Has that quote. I don't believe to be an effective motivator. And yet he talks about Nacho being a dog that needs to be disciplined to put down That's that is specifically talking about using fears. Motivator the fear of Papa and the problems there when Mike is saying you have a gun to his head. I think there's a chance at least in. I don't know I haven't given thought about how this plays out. There's a chance Mike wins this by losing right. There is a chance somehow that Mike is Right that they should have pulled Nacho out and that gus is the one who changes his tune on whether fear is an effective motivator or noticing interesting because I think I remember watching breaking bad and talking about podcasting with rob assessor Nina here. Podcasting about that final season. I was thinking about. We didn't get a chance to talk a ton about Gus fring. But his specter sort of hung over the whole series specifically how Walter White became molded into this sort of kingpin. Character after was taken off the board spoiler alert and now I'm doing it And it's that leftover it's at residual Nacho guilt that I have At that point what I think is that I thought about who. Gus fring was In his tactics and whether what was employing all of them or some of them ended always seemed to me like what we knew about. Gus from breaking bad was that he behaved the way he behaved. Because of Max because we that flashback we found out what made him tick to that extent and that maybe fear wasn't ineffective motivator because that's what had been used on him at the poolside with Max That's why he was working ultimately With the cartel the way he was on with Donald Audio throughout there's because he was afraid because of everything that happened with Max so he didn't like it in his own life. Well better costs. Also Prequel Gus. Fring year clearly does not buy into that ethos the way the GUS fring of breaking bad does so what changes between the Gust. We know. Now Gus we meet and breaking bad. It isn't something to do with Max. Maybe it's something to do with Nacho or something to do with this situation because Nachos the one in the crosshairs I also thought it was interesting did you. There's a scene. After gus in micro talking about this where we see. Nacho call wind gusts gossip guy tires I think might have been victor and he wants Nachos basically saying like hey once Lalo is put down. That means it's over right And tyrus I think might be. Victor says to Nacho. That's none of Your Business and hangs up on it. I don't know why that scene was there like we already know. That NACHO was Kinda screwed. It was just there so that he would know that he was screwed that he would know that he was under the thumb. I'm just confused as to what his role is in all this if he's going to pull a fast one if he feels like he can't get out anyway. He's not getting the answers he wants to get on so he's going to pivot. I still think there might be a move to be played there and it might be a move backfires on Gus. One thing that occurred to me as you were talking through those those character dynamics and those possibilities for for motivating future character actions although they are technically past character actions because it happened on a show that already aired is with Kim reading Lolo for filth in this episode. Can you imagine a scenario where where Mike who has been told earlier on this very season in fact I would pick your next words very carefully and basically just as I quit I quit? I quit Mr Frayne. And he walks away. He doesn't like give him like the big monologue. Is there something that can happen to Nacho? And then Mike points at that and it was like if you're not gonNa hear me and if you're not gonna see that like you get like point to pause grieving process for example like what it is you're fighting for is not good enough if these are the kinds of ramifications that are happening could so yes could something like the FBI resonated for us. Yeah I think so because it you have to keep in mind when he says and breaking bad when says I don't believe fear to be an effective motivator and he's articulating the opposite point here and better call Saul the person who is saying to him? I don't believe fear to be an effective motivator. Is Mike Mike? So Gus picks that up from Mike I would think and what you just said resonated with me because when you talk about if if Nacho is is is killed and he's caught up in the crossfire somehow he gets exposed and law takes him out or whatever it is. And it's Papa grief that is in play here boy. There's no going to understand the grief of Papa better than Mike like at the grieving father who loses his son. That's something that's really going to work with him and now Mike are already did. Walk away from costs. He's done it a couple times really but this season we saw what that looks like In this time it's a Mike who has remembered that he doesn't have to remember like he has learned that he has been able to articulate. I'm better now like he knows that he doesn't have to let that get him down. He has put in his brain Some way for him to be able to compartmentalize everything that he's been involved in and gus maybe help them with that a little bit. He took him away. He took him to that villa. He took them and put them in a position where he had to get better and maybe hit his bottom there. But the Mike that walks away from gusts if that were to happen now is not Mike. That's bottomed out and that's going to need gus fring And what's that? Revenge is executed if you will once Lolo. Salamanca is taken off. The board wants us on a move is made against the Salamanca's at where's Mike? Motivating factor to continue to work for Gus at that point when revenge was the word that brought him back in if revenge is executed. Especially if it's executed with Nacho in the crosshairs you might walk away now that said the Mike of this episode is also the Mike who articulates to Jimmy this monologue that I do WanNa get into a little bit more here. We're Mike Talks about the bad choice road and he does it in a much more eloquent way. Jimmy's is definitely road. And one of them is good. What are the roads bad? You're on the bedroom. So funny for a man whose Bolivian ship usually knows. No bounds is really finding himself at odds with something to articulate here and Mike Guy not known for his ability to talk. Doesn't much better job of explaining this and Mike of course has been talking about there in the game like they were in the game. It's fine there in the game. Certainly Nacho Varga is in the Game Mica said that to Nacho so I do wonder even though Mike is trying to get him out. How big is Mike Sympathy? Going to be considering what we know about. Mike? S- belief in roads and bad choices and good choices. Yeah Scott Question Man. I don't know I think I think we've talked about how gus saying. Revenge and now Mike being fully team again like something's missing. There's a piece of it. That's just not fully there and we got a really compelling speech from Mike in last week's episode and that was really good and I and I really liked that but I still feel like I don't feel like the argument is done or however you want to phrase that I don't feel like I don't feel like Mike and his perspective and the agency that he brings to the equation with gusts. That doesn't feel satisfied to me. And so I think that gus needs to probably like win in the big scheme of better call Saul at least like in terms of like this portion of the time line but lose in a way that is less about like his mustache twirling plans and more about wow. I've really lost myself in this to a certain degree and Mike needs to be able to point that out to him in some way. And that doesn't you know Mike's not a man of many words so it doesn't have to be a big long speech even the Big Long Jonathan Banks speech is Great You know the more half-measures psychotic and what we got last week was really good and you can imagine a really good one with him by telling. Gus something personal from his own life. That lodges deeply within Gus Spring. But it could be as simple as nacho dying and gus seeing the ramifications of that and Mike and giving him a look that all bets as I told you I told you. And Gus like having to stare in the mirror and see that like metaphorical charred half face staring back him. That becomes a liberalized in the season. Four finale of breaking bad one. Half of his face blows off. That actually happens spoiler alert but in the better call Saul context looking at himself for who he is becoming who. He's become what tactics are working. What tactics are not working? What tactics are working? But are they worth pursuing? Obviously everything with Bernard. Ziegler was not impactful enough for us to like back down from his methods. Could something really terrible happen? That like blows back on Papa and gets Mike to like articulate it in a way that gets gus till I come back down to Earth to some extent not enough that he's not gonNa you know out of blind rage. Try to inject poison into Hector Salamanca and get blown up in the process but like enough. That will get him to calm his tactics for at least a little while. Yeah I there's something you're right like we we. There is something here and I thought with Mike Speech. The the bad choice road. I thought really that he was encapsulating. A lot of what you could say about almost all these characters. You could say it about Kim. Wexler for sure. And the second time I watched the episode it really resonated with me that if you took Mike speech and applied it to Kim in the articulate way that Mike gave it not in the way the Jimmy tried to give it There are reasons to to actually think about the Ice Station. Zebra associates at all. But it isn't just Kim. We talked a couple of weeks ago. How hilarious it would be if when Jimmy was talking about how he had a client When you mentioned this to Kim that wanted to him to be a friend to the cartel if Kim said like how did you ever get this client to begin with? Jimmy's like well long story. It involves some guys and some skateboards involves the CATTLEMANS. Ida Falls a guy who was in a van. It involves me using the sex robot voice in a paper towel holder. All those things. You're familiar with because Uber on season. One yeah involves all those things. All those things are the little choices that might talks about in his bed. Choice road speech When he says we all make our choices those choices put us on a road sometimes. Those choices seem small but they Put you on the road. Do you think about getting off. But eventually you're back on it. Nothing can be done about that. That's Mike's Short of his speech And NACHOS made those choices. Everybody in the show Jimmy all of them Kim but Gus fring has certainly made those choices as well while is making those choices and everybody is on the road there in the game and they could try to get off the road mike and try to get off there. We know by breaking bad. He's back on the road right and my concern of courses that Kim can try to get off the road. Kim has making these choices. She's made some big choices in this episode Josh I thought it was hilarious when I watched the episode D. You remember what Jimmy and Kim said The morning which wakes up and puts his feet in the ice bath. They're going to sit there and watch. Tv All day long. Do you remember the exchange between the to me? This is the same day at Kim quits. Mesa Verde she quit swicord and Coakley puts Mesa Verde behind her and then comes home and the monsters in the House. The boogeyman shows up. Kim Says I really need a day without some trauma. That's what she says in the thing is she makes them little choices and she's made some choices in the past so even though she wants to get off the road like even though she needs a day without some drama. This is what can happen by the way we saw last episode. What happens when you get off the road and it's not great not bad down the road you went back on the road anyway. It's interesting because she says that. And then she goes on to quit. Schweickart and Coakley. She's she's done with Mesa Verde she's like very very calm about it like there's just sort of like this serenity about her of like just like yeah. This is right. This is correct. It's time to go. It's time to leave. She's choosing to go about it calmly but it's your matic life altering choice so for beginning. The day craving no drama. Forget Lalla Manca you you blew up your day. You blew up your life in a single day. That was without the cartel so big day for Kim Wexler on ripping it down on the badge. Ways wrote it's It's just. It's a big day for her and the thing is she can. She says that she could really use a day without drama but first of all she lives with Jimmy McGill so good luck but second of all. I'm not sure that that's really what she needs. We talked last week Or maybe it was two weeks ago when you get into her upbringing. And you see the drama. That was inherent in her upbringing. And she's talked about it in the past with Mr Aker this season sometimes people in that scenario. They don't actually not crave the drama. Drama is all they know. The drama is their routine. The drama is sadly and unfortunately Where they find some measure of familiarity and comfort and that's why they have a lot of problems they seek to recreate it. They see they seek it out whether they mean it they do it consciously or subconsciously people repeat and seek to repeat these patterns of behavior because it is in the patterns that they find comfort so it is possible that Kim can say she wants that. I don't want drama. But then when you know keep in mind. She says that the next thing that they talk about is she says Jimmy. I know you're lying. I'm here for you. You can tell me no judgment. This isn't a better deal. I just know that you're not telling the truth and Jimmy's after that he tells her of course point is I dragged my own p. That's the detail I drink by. Yeah just like the the the sun. Caked Jimmy McGill the. Make up in this episode off there. How about Mike like? Oh my gosh caked. Mike earnings to part ways with sun moved them. Which they're damned jewels and Vince Vega Looks Fiction. They're looking dog shit So funny with Mike. Teel t shirts. There's a there was a great photo. I saw flooding around. I wonder if maybe you even retweeted it but I saw someone posting it. A photo from the costume department on Better Call Saul. Jonathan banks like flipping off the camera while he's wearing the the big yellow t shirt that he gets at. The gas station looked amazing absolutely incredible. They love giving Jonathan Banks. Shit on the official better call. Saul podcast the producers podcast. And it just sounds like there's a lot of fun that has handed Jonathan banks but his response to things generates a lot of laughter among people so he's reputation I think is like he'll he'll really like much like Mike. Urban shout very thorough. Like stab really necessary. I really like going down the line on a point of like. Are you really going to make me do that? If so please like really articulate. Why Fair Enough? They asked him to do a lot here in the in the better call. Saul well in some of the best actors certainly are people that really put that level of thought and work into their craft. there's I think their stories. I've Richard Schiff Emmy Award winning actor from the West Wing and He will tell you that he he can be tough to work with but he he he he. I've I've heard him say like it's because I really care like I am not saying actress who don't put off that. Same VIBE DON'T CARE. I'm just saying like this. Is I think probably mark of why Jonathan Banks's process works the way thus Ram Because he puts a lot of time and effort and care and into it. And that's the same with you and me like we're very well known in our method chester. Barrie difficult to podcast with so because we care. Yeah exactly. I make people read like six books before each test Sounds like something you would do something like someone would think like? Antonio does that? He doesn't actually do no. I don't I don't even read them before you haven't made me read anything. I'M GONNA recommend you start with the Bible. God who good stories in there speaking of a lot of good stories The situation with with Kim I. What is the motivating factor? Do you think in why she leaves. Mesa Verde is at the stories of her pro Bono clients. She looks at the photo and it is that photo at the same time the she's dictating yet. Another inane letter about nothing about a six foot extension of some Bullshit Mesa Verde Bank whatever That she seems to formulate the plan that I got to get out of this place and I gotta do it right now but is that the reason because later in the episode. She talks about the clarity that she gained when she thought Jimmy was dead. So what do you think is the most the real motivating factor for why now? Why did this happen right now that Kim walked away speaking by the way on behalf of Rich Schweiker? Her boss played wonderfully by Dennis boots. We Love Dennis and I hope it's not the last time we see am I. It is true. Trust that they put in an actor when they let that scene between racy Horn and devos's play out the way they did a almost silently right. We only saw through reaction what was happening and we knew from the way that scene was played. Exactly what was going down. My question is why. Why in that moment was was what happened. What happen life this short and I think that's gotTa already be brimming on her mind in the last year or so of her life given everything that happened to chuck given the very you know given the lives that they lead in the aftermath of that haven't even really talked about some of your choice to present that scene of Kim tendering her resignation silently. That we just watch it and like you. Just you can a what's happening. You can just kind of like you can feel what what just occurred. Some great filming choices in this episode The montage at the start right. We didn't even talk about something stupid. That was wonderful. Tie tying that back to last season just showing how. The two of them are going about their days differently. She's you know she's rinsing her mouth out as she's brushing her teeth he's Gargling Piss. Let me jump in there because I think there is. There's a parallel that occurred to me in the something stupid. Montage that occurred last season Where we we talked about IT I. It's one of my favorite. I think it might be my favorite better call. Saul montage and it's a time jump. It's what it shows more than anything is the two of them growing apart We see them slowly going in and out of frames of each other's We see them at different times of their days eating their dinners. Apart not together we see the bad and the line drawn very clearly down the middle and yeah there's a little bit of overlap but that's what that is meant to communicate in my mind. Is that over time? These two are growing apart. And if you listen to the song and you listen to the lyrics of this classic Song The specifically wanted that song on the commission. Did they had a specific artists that they targeted and said. Can you perform this? Want to see if we can use it. One of those was low. Lamarche the band. Low the marsh Who then had to a another version Lola March to another version this episode and it seems like a tiny speck together with what we were just talking about. It seems like maybe what has happened is the idea at least in Jimmy when he's wandering throughout that desert is all. I care about his right to get back to Kim coming closer together even though they're separated and it's the something stupid montage that was about growing apart before this is showing they're coming closer together and it is this moment. Perhaps where Kim is like. I really don't want him to be dead and the fact that she thought he might be dead as told her like. You just said life's short. Go Out and Change Your Life. I don't think it's any coincidence. That she pivots when she's leaving Schweickart and Coakley and goes back and gets that Tequila Lid Because that is I think. Her Talisman for what reminds her of the fund that she and Jimmy Half together and that side of her that brought them together in the way that it did The first night we ever saw them spend the show together. I don't know if that was their first night together or not. I don't think that's ever been made abundantly clear but it seems to me like at the beginning of this episode Jimmy. Actually being absent brought them closer. Together it was bringing them closer together That made him realize I'm out of this Mesa Verde life and it does. It is Josh. What makes me wonder if she's going to buy in more to the criminal lawyer side of Saul Goodman more -at's crazy though bad choice road? That's the thing right. That's the monologue you you might be thinking that you're making these choices but you're always going to end up back on the road Once she put herself on the road to to be with Jimmy McGill and she really put her ball in his court. If you will I. And she and. She pushed her chips behind him. She staked him in terms of what he was doing Jamaica. She got on the road. She's in the game now is Mike would say and what she's in that game. She's on that road. She could make choices and she can think she's getting away like she can think moot leaving. Schweickart and Coakley and going and working for her pro. Bono clients is in pursuit of good but in reality she still the person who takes that to kill out of that office. She's still the person that did this. Because of Jimmy McGill and it's fascinating to me the part Jimmy. Gill makes me very angry throughout this episode. But the part he makes me angriest is when Kim tells him that she quit Schweickart and Coakley. And Jimmy's like well. That's a pro bono. Means for free. So you're not gonNA make any money. What's your plan like mother Fucker? Pardon my friends. Oh you just brought home one hundred K. for your bullshit. That's enough with the two of you for the year. At least so why. Don't you slow your roll a little bit here? And maybe Kim will continue work on for her pro Bono clients because we know she robs Peter to pay Paul so maybe we she will continue working for her pro bono clients as she's running ice station run shops Peter. Gould Pay Aaron. Paul yes that's exactly what it is. Yes Yep you figured it out you crack the code practice code but I mean it's it is it is kind of in some ways. Turnabout is fair play and and even though it's not Kim who gets like put Jimmy back in his place. It's more the universe right universe man where Jimmy is coming at Kim. So hard you hypocrite. You just like you're still lying. Even though she has given you every reason the world to like tell her like the full stuff and Shit and you're still allying you're still telling like she said like she. She knows something else happened in the desert like she's given you every excuse man and your choosing to still be this guy and you're judging her career choices a and now you're inviting the monster into the house and this is when lawler shows up right so it is it is and then. She's the one who drives him out. You're paying paying off that you don't save me. I save me. She's the one who gets them. Jam Call. I think that's great. I think that that that works really well for me in terms of everything that we're coming to understand about this relationship between them. I think Jimmy doing everything that he can't be self-important transform himself and be the king of his universe but when the consequences of that really come home he's not going to be able to stare stare down and it's came. Who's going to be the one who's able to untangle all of that? I don't know there's a lot there just the scene construction of that vinyl seen the episode. I haven't felt that tents very long time just watching something. This is really really massive. We'd done great character work. Great just great cinematic choices having like the specter of Mike being in the room that Mike could be in the room a flash in a manner of speaking if he needed to be it was just all the set pieces on all of that really expertly crafted really great a really great sequence in in better call Saul history really across both of the shows. This ending here really kind of knocked my socks off. I wore the other one. It stands to reason than it would be with the DNA the cross DNA Because the writer director. This episode is Thomas Schnauzers Thomas has directed A couple of episodes of better call Saul in the Passy also directed The say my name episode of breaking bed but he worked as a producer on breaking bad and he's been involved in the DNA of that show extensively and has been involved in the DNA of better call Saul throughout as well. I believe I'm not sure but I believe he has directed an episode in every season. A Better Call Saul or at least most. If he hasn't gotten every season he was on the producers podcast week. He's always really funny. He's speaking of Rascal. He's just he just says whatever the hell he feels like. He doesn't have much of a filter so he's always entertaining to listen to for did not recognise before I know they were. They had talked about it on the podcast in the past and I couldn't remember but yeah he it makes sense of the DNA would be there because this is a guy who understands these shows really really well. And I just all this all this cross pollination all the people that are involved in working Having worked on breaking bad and having been involved on breaking bad Throughout the course of the show it just does make me wonder what. Kim Wexler Role in breaking bad could be and what a season six of better call Saul could be if we want to jump into that time line like if we if we want to do what they did with the scene with Jimmy and Francesca where we had some of that I would say there has to be a break at some point even if Kim Wexler is involved with Ice Station. Zebra even if We are seeing in this episode. The possibility Because of the depth of the writing and because of how good everything Is is brought to the stage by the actors The possibility that Kim could be involved in this I think that there is clearly a break at some point when gene goes to Omaha genus alone and so there he is not with Kim Wexler throughout all of breaking bad say and I still think it's most likely that that's the call he places when he's going to take care of it himself instead of the vacuum cleaner salesman. He's GonNa Call Kim Wexler and he's going to have her get him out of trouble but the break is coming. I think the question is will. It happened in the better. Call Saul Timeline. Which I think we have been anticipating Possibility of her being the first person to be disappeared and so on. I think it's possible that the the break could have occurred sometime in the breaking bad timeline and season six better call. Saul. That spends time in that. Timeline might actually let us see that. Play out yeah. We'll we're we're running right up to it right we got. We got one hour on the clock here on better call Saul and a lot to tidy up you know before we get into the final season. I don't think I don't know if we know for sure what. The episode length is for the final season. If it's following in the breaking bad mold of splitting a final season up into two smaller seasons or if it's going to stick to the tried and true ten episodes a year that better call Saul has unfurled thus far. We don't know but we are theoretically staring down. The barrel of and I know barrels are triggering in this universe of eleven episodes left. That's a lot of time and yet not a lot of time with the way in which this show moves through plot that cares less about plot and more about character but there is a lot of plot to accomplish still so I. I'm I'm really intrigued about next week. Because this back portion of the season has been pretty momentous things have been moving with with with such a velocity that it's been kind of breathtaking and really intense on a weekly basis and way that breaking bad off and was better call. Saul is not normally on the regular like dependably intense. In this way in these circumstances you know what I mean like. It's usually intense on like sort of on another character levels not not on this level What's going to get accomplished in this? Finale what kind of tone is that? GonNa set for the final season of the show. What is going to be resolved here and what's going to be left on the board to be resolved next year like if we if we resolve the Lalla thing this coming week the way that you and I think expect where does that leave the MIC and Gus Story to go in the final season. Lots of lots of these types of questions. I'm really curious to look at the finale next week as a bit of a compass towards what to expect from the final season. Same and you know that I have been saying that what I would like to see you. I hope we will see. I think we will see is a scene involving gene in the finale that we're going to break the format a little bit that we're going to do what some of the best TV shows have done in the past Which is in a season. Finale changed the format. One of the things I will say is that there's been at least one death in every season. Finale of better call Saul sometimes major characters like Verner chuck Sometimes minor characters like truck drivers or Marco people that were major to certain people in the show but maybe not major in the context of the entire show. But there's been a character death in in every one of the finale episodes I I'm guessing they're not going to break the form on that but you're right with as many episodes they have left and actually season six thirteen episodes not ten so some more length More opportunity to I think tell stories in that breaking bad time line. If you want to get there more more opportunity to tell stories in the gene timeline. If you want to get there and you don't want to do just to scenes with gene you don't want to do just a beginning ending a way to split the season seven at six. If they WANNA do that we have no idea how the world will be better call. Saul returns keeping in mind. I think it was eighteen months or so Between the end of the last season at the beginning of this one. So who knows? I've seen you talking about our world now because exactly talking about our world. Yeah we're on the road right now. Brother own choices and they're coming chickens. Gustav here's the good or bad road on the bad one other bad one. My friend together. We're into bad choice. Road is due in the bad place. Yes we had a feedback. Email that I know we wanted to read David. Upper can pull it up. Let me see this is this is from Watches Hi guys in the end of this episode reminded me of the end of Wexler v Goodman in that we are once again left wondering what Kim will do next. I think that Kim is fully committed to the criminal lawyer lifestyle by this point. Kim knows that Jimmy is not being straight with her about what happened in the desert but rather than push directly for full disclosure. She decides to take action to clear her plate and show him that she is willing and able to follow him down. This road leading Schweickart and Coakley and Mesa Verde is the first step of that plan. The second presents itself in a moment of necessity when low decides to play. Shave Wexler McGill. A visit is clear to her. That lawler was not buying Jimmy Story. And when she finds out why she takes action to rationalize. Aaron facts build up Jimmy's Alabama and character and undermined the judge executioners owned position. She must be feeling strong. Terror anger and betrayal when all this is going down but she does what she always does and pushes those pesky emotions out of the way at least until the danger is out of their immediate presence that she continues to be so effective and command such respect. Despite the emotional depth charges lying underneath is how she got his foreign life. It is not a good long term strategy. But it's the best. She's got and makes her admirable short-term tactician of course. It's also possible that Kim comes to her senses and leaves Jimmy. Which would set up a final season of gene searching for some closure with Kim but given that she just agreed to marry the Guy. Odds are that. She's down to ride till the end. Hashtag two thousand four Bonnie and Clyde. Yeah this is the bad choice road right right. This is her making these choices. Small in the moment. I'm just going to push that aside. I'm not going to deal with it. I'M NOT GONNA. I'm not gonNA really stick my neck out here. But all those little choices that she's made They pusher in this direction. That she's headed. I just I feel like in. I think this email encapsulated I I feel like I'm more likely than ever to accept that Kim. Wexler isn't taken off the board that she is in control of the board at some point. And that's I think perhaps more terrifying proposition than the former proposition and a credit to all involved. I think for putting that as a possible scenario here whether it was even really intended or not. That's where I'm at with for sure I don't know where you are. Yeah I don't know man are. You just feels like you're feels like what's the worst possible outcome for Kim. Wexler at this point is that she does that. She dies where that she lives that way. Something happened in the last hour or so. Antonio and you incented me with the idea of Kim becoming a cartel lawyer and I hate that not in terms of its unearned by story. Unfortunately I think it could be earned by the story. That's the thing I hate that and I hate that for her. I hate it and like I'm having a hard time thinking about Tim's future. This episode was very effective. In and again I do think it is important. That like these are Kim's choices and she's making bad choices and she's making the choices to stay with Jimmy but I can you know in the same way that like Jesse pink men makes bad choices sticks within on breaking bad and I still love that character and I still want better for him. It's exactly how I feel for Kim Wexler and largely because of just a remarkable performance in right. Now it's hard for me to see a lot of options where with now we're talking about fourteen episodes remaining on the board because of the thirteen in the final season at least theoretically for now. It's hard for her. It's hard for me to imagine her making that healthy choice to walk away from Jimmy Anytime soon. Maybe maybe it's a still to come at some point further down the road but we're still talking about the bad choice wrote at that point. You know there's a too much drama in the Jimmy and Kim relationship and just enough time on the clock that she probably not GonNa make very good decision about this until a lot later and one thing that has occurred to me over. The course of this past hour of conversation is Oh God. What if this really is Kim's breaking bad story? Yeah we thought we were getting the story of how Jimmy McGill breaks bad and become Saul Goodman. But we're really getting and what it became was the story of how it happened to Kim. Wexler that's fascinating possibility that it wasn't for you and I hopped on so if I sound like little far away in distressed about the whole thing because I don't want that to happen man but but I'm feared of it the bad choice road convoys made me feel some type away like it made me feel like what are what are who is the speech really four because just thinking about like him saying. I don't want drama today. And all the drama. That happened that day she also She said I. I won't see la again like that's what she says to Jimmy early in the episode. When Jimmy's like you don't see below icy Lalo? You'RE NOT IN THE GAME. Comes back in the game and clearly? Kim is better at dealing with Lallo. Jimmy is she's better. She's better suited for this. And when we know what Jimmy McGill does in as Saul Goodman one of the things that that we always saw Saul Goodman doing Was We saw him Being sort of low end right like his reputation wasn't like I'm this kingship Shit kick ass cartel lawyer His reputation was. He's the guy you hire when you're guilty like he's a criminal lawyer and his his lobby. Waiting Area was filled with a lot of personal injury. Type clients It was always portrayed as very low end stuff that he was asleep that he was not like this king. Heavy hitter the guy who's like buying vineyards that has like all the money in the world from the cartel the hundred thousand dollar a year cartel lawyer guy that wasn't Saul Goodman but could it become wexler at least possible like who is the Mesa Verde of the of this world that she's representing cartel exactly see worked for a Wachtel and now she's going to work for cartel because just just to add a little bit of something to this. Mike was listening. Mike heard that whole conversation. Mike Heard Kim shoot lalo right out that damn door. Mike watched as she stepped in front of him. She literally stepped into his crosshairs. All and there's so much bait by the way she's playing with oranges. The whole episode she stepping into the crosshairs Thomas. Now's the producers podcast. Oh yeah this was like I guess. It's not schmuck. Bait if you're bathing last film nerds but it's like nerd bait so they were clearly like baiting. The audience would be hip to that. So it's a very effective because I'm very concerned about it the entire time. I'm watching that scene to the point that I'm not watching the scene listening to it. Yeah you know. I can't look so it is Mike. Here's that he he. If anybody in that room standing up to Lolo I it is not Saul Goodman that. Here's a good that makes walk out of that place. It does not Saul Goodman that allows Mike to drop his gun It's Kim Wexler Mike. Here's that Mike has to know a Guy. So it's it's always. It's always clear from breaking bad that that Jimmy does not know who gushed is does not really know. Mike's Connection Holy knows that he has one but maybe Kim does know. And that's something. I think that we should be tracking more of course when Kim is unfortunately killed in some sort of explosion next episode of this will be the for now it is very interesting possibility and I'm glad we talk about it. What else did we miss that you wanted to hit before pope? Let me look at this an episode again real quick. Just looking at my notes while you do that. I had that in my notes for shore that Mike was listening. And the Kim said I won't see Lau again It's interesting when Jimmy tells Kim to go in the other room and find the Mug Mug and she looks through a law. Looks through the bullet hole of the car She's looking at it and Jimmy's like did you see you see it. And she says yes. And Jimmy says that's what it's all about and it has he's saying that's what it's all about. She's looking at the bullet holes the lie all of that Chicanery. So what it's really all about is not just the money it's about the fear. It's about the violence It's about the lies. It's about all those things and she knows that she's going in with is open. She is not. She's being lied to but she no. She's being lied to so she knows who she's dealing with this is. This is not a surprise to Kim. Wexler any of this stuff. Yeah so there is one thing that we did not talk about that. I think we absolutely do need to talk about and then I think we're probably good. We gotTA talk about Bill. Hope TALKING ABOUT BILL OAKLEY. How do we forget it? Yeah Deputy District Attorney Bill Oakley I forget him simply just like trolling hard jimmy and just like relentless relentless assault I thought was over and then he pops up in the window of the door. I this is like street fighter. You're playing against a guy who's commanding eat. Honda and just doing a thousand armed slab from the start of the fight before it even says go. That's the kind of astle you'd ever WanNa play against. But he knows that he made never get a shot again. Jimmy Shanley chicken boys like he's really just digging it in he LE. Yeah this is great. This is to change your name again. Really really funny. I'm so glad a loan in a moment to be physically like in pay in pain from all this and then we just pan like a window. Still Yeah I was watching. I texted you a screen shot of that because incredible I loved it so much so legitimate belly laugh from the big. Yeah really just great stuff during the season. The seasons but great. I love this so much. I think that they've they do all the things that they do really well anyway. And they're doing them at at in peak form. We're GONNA have robbed. We're GonNa Have Rob Sesser Nino. Who ipod casted with a better call? Serb abetter call with for all the seasons. We're GONNA have him on before we wrap up our podcast about this season. Better Call Saul. I'm curious to ask him but I'm also curious to ask you. Do you think and I'm not trying to toot my own horn in any way. I'm just curious from a process perspective. Do you think you've enjoyed the season more because you're podcasting about it because you're thinking about on a deeper level in that way. I don't I don't know I listen. I love talking through this stuff so as long as I have somebody in my life to talk through better call Saul with on this level. I think I'd be good so even if it was just you and shooting the Shit and you're still doing the podcast with rob and you and I are not getting together and doing this weekly. I know that you and I are friends. And we're going to be having conversations about this stuff no matter what but I do find that. I derive a certain amount of enjoyment when we are through this. This is some like sausage making stuff you could throw it on your Nachos if you want later is like I do find that when we're thrown into that space that we seem to occupy when you and I are on a podcast together Antonio where we go about an hour to an hour thirty somewhere in that range of your locking down. You're going into the room and you're chewing on a story for that length of time. I often find that I walk away from whatever it is. We're talking about with a deeper relationship to the thing whether or not that's for better for worse it's worse this week but often it's much more often been for better than for worse. You know what's not talk about Strigoi but like the the examples of like shows that we've gotten to synchro teeth into in this way That we've both like formed like a special relationship with far vastly outnumbers. The show is that we haven't so. I think it's not that I it's not that I was not loving better. Call Saul Anyway. Breaking Bad's one of my favorite shows of all time and I love better call Saul and I certainly love it more right now. having done a rewatch of it and getting to have like a much more like a a closer more current sense of the scale. If the thing right now I feel like I'm above it and I can look down in a way that hadn't been looking down on it before and I do think that there is something about the process that exists within the show itself when you're tearing a car apart to find the bug and it's in the cap in the gas canister that when you allow yourself to chew on better call and no part at the animal goes wasted. Everything is used. Everything is stripped down for parts whether it's for consumption or to turn the bowed the bones into Bowen era. I don't know what kind of warriors stuff would occur. It's obviously not my field. I it makes more satisfying experience. And I'm definitely feeling that this year better call Saul but I think that's the personal side of it. I think the more universal side is much like breaking bad. Was a ramping up game so has been this. This is a bad esscalation. It's just the speed is different. The the place you're going is still the same your head. You're on bad choice. Wrote doesn't matter whether you're going one hundred sixty miles per hour. You're going the speed limit which you know better call. Saul tends to abide by more often than than breaking bad I think or maybe the better analogy is the vessel the vehicle with which they are driving down. I don't know I keep talking about. This is a slow motion car wreck and I think that that's I think that's right but a slow motion car wreck and like somebody wake ripping down the highway towards a very very bad call. You're still driving towards a bad call and that is at the point where it just because of time on the clock. We're about to crash into the wall and there is something that if you're if you're firing creatively on the right cylinders you're ready to make the pivots and the choices that needs to be made to push you through the top of the toothpaste tube and out into the point of no return. Crass you cross that Rubicon at the edge of the toothpaste tube. There's going to be something. Very weak uncomfortably pleasurable about that experience. That is that is definitely personal in terms of like the lean aspects but it's also undoubtedly a resounding resounding credit to the creators for on of levels. Not just the Peter Golden Vince Gilligan's of the world blessed though they may be but talking about you know full writer's room full editor sweet costume designers. A location scouts obviously cast music choices scoring all of that. It's it's symphonic when it's at its best and I think that better call Saul is in that place right now and thank God because it'd be really sad if it wasn't but we are here in the penultimate hour of penultimate season and I think it's exactly where it needs to be right now. Even if Kim Wexler is not yeah I I completely agree and I don't mean in any way too slight people involved with making a show of anything. I think it's a credit to them that there are certain shows. And we've we have been lucky enough to talk about some of them choice like we picked him out but there are certain shows. I think that really reward that level of deep dive and reward that level of thinking on that level of commitment and I think what we're seeing in an episode with Kim where we spent the entire season for example loud ing the work of Racy Horn praising The just the writing on the situations that the character has been but being concerned that we're heading down a bad path and and worrying from moment to moment we're now in an episode episode nine or we can spend. I don't think wasted time Really digging into the possibility for this character that she is not even a fork in the road that she's already too far gone that she's made those choices This is a show. I think that rewards that level of thinking there are too many shows like that on on in history really that that reward the level of thinking on that level so I was curious because you haven't been doing this with better call Saul. We've talked about the show in the past. But you weren't sitting here with me every week We weren't sitting together every week. Picking this over there shows that I've podcast in about And I know you have where we say you know what I think I enjoy the show more from talking about it because I'm not going to invest the same level of energy in it I'm going to just be committed to sitting back and letting it play out in front of me and not really thinking about it. This is a show. I think that rewards that level of commitment I sense that from the people who listen From the people who participate. Who tweet at us? Who have talked to us about the show. Offline not on the PODCAST I think people are really feeling good about better call Saul right now And I haven't always felt as all the on the show the previous season so it is. It is a testament to a lot of things time. Certainly being one of them Having the ability to know where your end is coming and having a plot in a plan to get there But at this point I have no clue what could come others a lot of things we can talk about. And I'm fascinated by all of it and I think that's a true testament to what they have done with this season of better call Saul even though there have been some moments where like okay we. We spent a lot of time finding a bowling ball. For what reason like all these things I I still think we can thread those needles. There will find a way to make Bill Oakley come in And matter and make it not just funny but a terrible moment for such that he goes out and reflects to Mike of all people and we see him in that great moment when he gets out on that street. I think it's a straight we've seen in this show many times before where he meets Mike there so it may even be the ice cream corner just a great show just a really realizing I can't tastic show. Yeah I think I think it's very good that they've earned their way back to Jimmy and Mike being in scenes together and obviously that's a fairly recent development even though they have the phone call in the quote Unquote Tunnel earlier in the season. But I think finding a way to get those characters back in each other's orbit in a more meaningful way and it's hard to imagine deviating from that moving forward. I think that they're back together in some capacity now as as we're crossing through to the finish the proverbial walt and Jesse of the series. Which is is obviously not a one to one you know. They're they're the two leads in in many ways certainly the holdovers from breaking bad. That are that are anchoring so much of this story but another piece of it to this year has been like there has been this like unstable rogue agent in. Lallo who I know you guys had a lot of questions. Rob had a lot of questions about the character like coming out of season for you know. He's I think through ceilings. It back down but I actually think that these nine episodes of season five that we've gotten to spend law so far at least one more you'd think unless he just disappears into the night we don't see him again until the final season which I guess is not impossible. That would be kind of. It'd be a choice. We're going to see him. I pretty confident we're going to see him. I'd be surprised if we didn't that he's just. He is just brought this energy to the show he reminds me of a lake the dangerous like quote unquote friend. Everyone knows this like Ross. Or I'm talking about Gunther. No He is a dangerous is full on stalker. What I mean like. There's the person that you're connected to in some way shape or form of use you as a friend you have to see them in social situations but wow that person's dangerous the way they carry themselves is is frightening and you know if you get too close that is composed. That's a combustible situation. You got real careful around. That person Lolo has that very wild energy about him where he goes through the show with these zest in life and sort of just like laughing Daniel Craig Road to perdition style. It's also hysterical to some degree like book kind of like a like a jackal like is like sort of like the animalistic approach to them whereas there is something. That's much more careful and methodical about gus spring. And that's scary but there's something really scary about having a villain Lalla Salamanca who embodies tone of better call. Saul writ large that sometimes this show is deeply funny and sometimes this show is deeply troubling. Follow is really wears. Both of those colors really well and that he is like sort of like this this this operator who exists across lake. He's he's kind of like what Jimmy is describing himself in the episode. A couple weeks ago where he's like. I walked through. And all of this like that's Lal. Allow the operator in the two tones of better call. Saul and now he is. He is crossed over in. He's at the center of the Ven Diagram of the shows story so to remove that next week is going to be no big thing if that's where we end up going no small thing that's where we ended up going and I will. I will mourn that loss. We're right if we are going to lose Lalo here soon. I oh I I kind of hope. We're wrong because I think that the energy he brought this year kind of transformed the show for the better. Yeah driftwood drifts at take underscored bring her on twitter tweet at US and said I'm predicting Lallo does not die out. That's correct to write. I feel like it's over but like don't leave the defense or the reasoning behind Griffin drifts. Take that was brought by take. Underscore bringer is in my opinion. The character and Tony Acting are as good as anything. The breaking univer break bed universe has done and I could see the writers realizing the absolute gem they have in the writing and portrayal and it's fascinating because you brought up how rob maybe had some misgivings about follow. And when I asked you if you maybe saw part of the reason that you've enjoyed the season Moore's because we've really spent the time to luxuriate an break it down. I suspect though. I can't confirm and we'll bring rob on to validate this having nothing to do with any of us. I suspect rob may be enjoying the season more just letting it play out and watching it and not really spending the time worrying about whether he understands lawless motivations or any of that I think there are probably people in the audience who are really just letting enjoying watching letting things play out and for those people They may not want while taking off the board. It's funny My friend Mack. Holman shout out to my friend. Who's a big fan of better call? Saul? He was watching this episode with his wife and he said his wife was screaming at the TV. Just shoot him. Just shoot him like she wanted Mike just to pull the trigger so there are definitely people in the audience who want Lilo gun but Lallo. You're right occupies that space where you can entertain. Us and scare us. Great performance great show the fact that the show was able to do that itself and Lolo in the way that you put it encapsulates all that really good stuff here. Yeah good stuff as yet anything else you WANNA hit before we wrap up here Josh. We've gone hour and a half. So were you know. We're in that spot that we that we tend to fall so I think it's time to turn down the lights close in. Oh my gosh wonder too bad Joyce Road. Yeah. I don't want to take me home in its myself. I'm going to say thanks. Everyone for listening How can people get out of if they want to? Send US feedback. We're going to do a full feedback. Show right Josh. Let's just talk that through real quick? You know we we kinda casually. We've in feedback here and there on the recaps but we will have a dedicated feedback. Bonus special after the season. So we've got the finale of recap that's GONNA come up next week and tell you and I are GonNa take that down and plan as it stands. Rob will be back for our big feedback. Show that will do some time shortly. After the finale you know a week or so at most something like that you can send all your feedback in for us. Bcs At post show recaps dot com is our email address. You can hit us up there. You can hit us up on the twitter as well at post show recaps at Ron Howard. That's me like Howard Hamlin but rounder. Antonio's at AC Massaro several different ways to get in touch with us for both next week show but just as importantly maybe even more importantly so that we have things to talk about for for our season five feedback show that we will do the week after all of that and right now. You're in this the Halcyon days if you will the beauty times when we still have as you like to put Josh. The what three three or four days before the finale of caller the best three or four days because we still have not yet experienced it. we're still in the gloaming if you will so if you want to get your predictions in About what gusts plan is will always survive the season. What will become of Kim. And so on Go ahead and send those in if you nail it on the nose. We're definitely GONNA shut you out but I'd be curious to read some of them. I'm curious this jerk about it. If you're like I told you well listen. Hopefully they'll do that in the email where they're making the prediction if they do that. I'm going to be scared of future man or future woman and say I get out of here. You Demon so. I don't think that will be the case. But yeah feel free to singer predictions in if you nail. We'll definitely give you credit. I'm curious as to what everyone is expecting out of this finale where people are. I'm no longer necessarily feeling like we'll definitely get a gene scene because there is this propulsion of nature. I still think we will But we're not in a position where I think it's as likely because we have this huge piece on the board in Lala that we haven't dealt with an feels like that's the thing that we're going to do in this finale to me And the idea that you've given me that he could possibly not show up or possibly survive it Arlene are things that I hadn't considered as likely so. I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks. Definitely hit US up We certainly appreciate the feedback that we got this week as every week Shoutout to those. Who helped behind the scenes Josh? You want to give anybody a shot out. The people who helped put this podcast up together. Whole hundred percent from Steve's Panty to Alex Rubino Sam more. We've got a great team. That's working to make sure that all these podcasts are coming your way. Of course we've got a lot beyond better call Saul on pusher recaps push. Recaps is bump in these days killing eve. Recap just launched with Jessica lease and myself talking about killing eve. I always love walking dead ending. Prematurely was really sad for me mostly because it meant Jesse. We're not going to be talking zombies every week. Now we're talking about a show that is just like objectively really fun and good instead of just like we can make walking dead fund so really looking forward to spending all season long. Talk Matt Those characters with Jessica. We had a really good start to the podcast this week. So check that out. We'll have a feet up for that specifically but if you just subscribe to push a recaps generally you'll be able to get her killing. You've podcast the season premiere. Was this past Sunday. So we've got eight weeks of that show to look forward to also got Westworld Lake. Better call saw getting really close to the end of the line. Joe Garfield tonight just released our recap of that. We've got our marvel podcast. Everything is super. We're going through with the Marvel. Cinematic universe that's myself and Kevin Mateo. We truck through the incredible hulk this week. That was a time a lot of time to be alive while the time to be alive. Indeed thing killing a good example of a show that I'm just happy to sit back and enjoy for sure for sure and killing eve is a good example of a show that I have been really really grateful to like. Get the chance to lean into more interesting. It's been it's actually been really fun to dig into some of those characters On a on a more granular level. And where they're all at. Psychologically that's you know that's my stuff. That's my favorite stuff so really fun with that loss. Down the hatch with Mike. Bloom still happening. We're up to fire plus water this week. My least favorite episode of the whole show. But I've been having a hard week and I often say that lost to beat you where you are playing. Watch the yet so. I wonder if that means I'm going to be extra down on it or will lift me up in some ways so so it's coming up the fire plus water. It's the one where a. Charlie flashback and season two. He's in diapers commercial. I was going to ask you if it was the driveshaft diapers see. I think I might like it. I think I might have a good time with Josh. You are everybody. Probably we'll find some residents. We'll see we'll see and of course the final fantasy coverage if the final fantasy eight Antonio a compensation dinner there got you excited in your in your in your ready to roll with some some more final fantasy content. We've got you covered with some bonus final fantasy podcast coverage coming your way later in the week suppressor recalibrate a lot of stuff happening. Hell Yeah you are very very very busy man Josh. I'm tired and podcast the hell out of this team. There's a lot going on it and I and I actually have gotten the take and I appreciate it because certainly I'm having a hard time keeping up with all my podcast but I assume that people were not listening to every single podcast that that's being produced and what I want is. I want people to have options. You pick you pick off the menu you can have the chicken or the princess or the Avocado Salad. Whatever it is you want. What are you chicken fingers? You can have those as well Mozzarella sticks. I've been working almost every podcast this week. So food The only thing. I'm podcasting about right now. Besides this is top chef with yen. Lovely wife Emily Fox Haley strong. Kurt Clark and Mike Bloom Were special guests throughout. We're having a really good time doing that. That's over at reality. Tv WRAP UPS. But if you can't find that hit me up I'll director there but You I think I just. I know that we talk about the top chef. Podcast that we all have a good time doing that But don't work too hard man. Don't don't overwork yourself here but it also has fallen off the map here. Oh no no no no no no. We're okay we're doing all right okay. I played a lot of final. Seventy beat it in a weekend like obviously. I'm taking care of my mental health to Helena started valley. Yeah Yeah I think I'm just GONNA play final fantasy seven again. That's about to happen you better start. Yeah I'll That's going to be impossible. Dr King's Mid Guard donut me. Okay okay okay. We're GONNA work my squats and my Chin ups but a dark game is unbeatable. Everybody that's it for the better. Call Saul podcast. I'm calling it. I gotTA finish my Spanish lessons for today. All right bye take you everybody. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.

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