#1261 - Peter Hotez
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So go to perfect Kito dot com slash Rogan to find my favorites and enter the code Rogin at checkout. That's perfect Kito Kito spelled K T O P E R F E C T K E T, O dot com slash Rogin and enter the code Rogin at checkout. Okay. Okay. Oh, my guest today. Ladies and gentlemen, is he is a very famous man in the world of medicine. He was on my television show that I did for sci-fi many many years ago, and I talked about infectious diseases and all sorts of stuff. And when I asked him to come on the show. That's what a initially wanted to talk about. But then we. I found out through the fact that he was talking about coming on the show that a lot of people were very interested in his take on vaccines, people that are pro vaccine and people that are anti vaccine who accused him of being shell. And anyway, I enjoy him. I enjoy talking to them. And I think we we went into vaccines quite a bit. And he's explained why he believes that vaccines do not cause autism. What the actual cause vaccines are how it can be identified. We also talked a lot about infectious diseases, including a lot of infectious diseases that are extremely common in Paris is extremely common in the United States that I didn't even know about his name is Dr Peter hotels. He's the professor in dean of the national school of Tropical Medicine at Baylor. College of medicine and his great guy and really enjoyed talking to him. So please give it up for Dr Peter hotels. The Joe Rogan experience. Oh, rob your podcast by. And we'll live Corser. How are you could see again, I'm thrilled to be here. Thanks this man. Thanks for having. I know I should tell you before we get started. I did not know when I asked you to come back on that you were heavily involved in this whole vaccine debate what I wanted to have you on to talk about as tropical diseases because I remember when we did that fi show. You explain to me that some ungodly percentage of people that live in Trump climates are infected by parasites. That's right. Well, my day job is developing vaccines for tropical diseases. We developed a vaccine no one else will make because for the world's poorest people. So we called them tropical diseases, but there really are diseases of poverty, the vaccine issue, the the advocacy issue around vaccines and autism is kind of a new thing that I got drawn into just because I'm a parent of an adult daughter with autism. And I make vaccine so it was a natural that I'd get drawn into it. Yeah. So when I. I said that you were going to come on. Then I got inundated by people that are, you know, the vaccine thing is such a polarizing issue. That's awful. And so many people seem to think they absolutely know what causes what especially when it comes to something like autism, which is a huge issue in this country to huge issue around the world. And it didn't use to seem to be the question is was that because it was undiagnosed was that because it just it's more prevalent today. What do you think what is your take on? I don't think we really know. One thing's for sure, we're diagnosing people with autism. Who we diagnosed as something else in the past. You know, whether it was, you know, really horrible diagnosis, we'd use pejorative terms like mental retardation. What's jamie? To start the clock was off. Oh, okay. Sorry sorry to start again. No. No. No. It's okay. He was just saying he was just telling me that there are clock screwed up because of the daylight savings. Right. Sorry. Totally unrelated to all countries clock screwed up because they yeah. Right. So so we don't know we don't well one thing is clear that the number of diagnoses is going up. But part of that is because what we used to call preordained things like mental retardation now get thrown into the autism category. The other thing too it. Absolutely. No. Well, you know now we call it as part of the autism spectrum. We also because autism often has a lot of associated intellectual disabilities. Not always. But sometimes the other is that positive is that based on aptitude tests like how do you? How do they decide? How do they decide? What's autism? They they have a list of diagnostic cat. Gore. But it's not it's not like you could test someone if they test positive for a disease. That's right. That's right. Well, although it, you know, one of the interesting side pieces to this is, you know, the there's a group of people out there who self identify themselves as the autistic, and they get very resentful or hurt when they're called a disease or disorder in because they say, well, we're not an epidemic. We're we're a person, and they that it's part of this whole neuro diversity movement. Which is quite interesting. Neuro diversity move. Right. They say their neuro diverse that they, you know, maybe think differently from others and they respond differently than others, but they're not quote, abnormal. And and I think they have a good argument. I heard a crazy argument wants when someone that was so the so the point is that it's you know, the the impairment like Rachel my daughter. It's not so much autism that thwarts her, you know, ability to have partners or to. Have a meaningful career. It's the fact that she has profound in her case, profound intellectual disability that goes along with it. I forgot what I was gonna say. So when when they say that people have a there's a spectrum, right and some people who are have an incredible abilities. That's right them incredible mathematical abilities musical abilities language abilities. And then some people do not some people have legitimate issues. Yeah. With Rachel's case, my daughter, she has a pretty good verbal I q eighty ninety but she has a very low performance Cuban forty. She can't do. Simple math. She can't count money. Fortunately, Goodwill Industries came to her rescue in our rescue. And now, she works two hours a day sorting clothes, and and that's been really meaningful for her to get a paycheck, even it was minimum wage. Yeah. Right. Do something. Yeah. Right. Pardon feel part of the mix. That's huge. That's huge for everyone wraps Lutely. Absolutely. But so there's no. Oh, there's it's not like you test positive for syphilis or you can test positive for the flu. Right. Although now, you know, as I say, so that's why I don't like using those those terms because it it puts people on the autism spectrum as though they have a disease, which I don't like to do. But. Well, you know, now, we know there are ninety nine genes are linked to autism. But why is it about thing to say they have a disorder if it's just a disorder people have disorders right act? Well, you know, a lot of the individuals in that that self identify themselves autistic don't like to think of themselves as a disorder. They like to think of the cells is different different monotonous -sarily as a disorder. Right. But that doesn't help us when we're trying to discuss it does. Yeah. It gets very it's it's hard gets hard to talk about. And they're they're trying to stop you from talking about it in a certain fashion, which is actually accurate, right? When they have an issue. There is an issue to say there's no issue is kind of ridiculous. It's I mean, there's a reason why so many people are so concerned about autism and vaccines and just autism in general rights environmental pollution, grabs. Will they like to do is? They like to make the distinction between autism that nerve diversity thing. And actually having intellectual disabilities that go along with it. Okay. Maybe it's a bit of semantics also, but they feel strongly about right now, if we don't know what causes autism. We do we do. Well, we're getting there very closely. So we've now there is a very important paper produced written by group at the broad institute. Harvard MIT, which is one of the premier genetics genomics organizations in the country. And they've now identified ninety nine genes, it's a it's a huge team of scientists not only at the broad, including piece, I deserve Baylor. College of medicine ninety nine genes involved in autism all involved in early fetal development, early brain development in the first and second trimester pregnancy. So now, we're starting to really get our arms around what autism is. And that's one of the things. I talk about in the book. I mean, we we have learned so much in the last couple of years about autism. How it begins early fetal development well before kids ever, see accedes. And that's one of the reasons I save. Scenes did not cause Rachel's autism vaccines. Don't cause autism because autism is already underway in early early brain development is it possible that some people have this tendency towards autism. And it's exacerbated by vaccine, I don't think so I think what what happens is the sequence of events happens during pregnancy. But the full clinical expression of autism often doesn't happen till eighteen or nineteen months of age. Rachel, for instance, wasn't actually diagnosed till nineteen months of age, and there's some fabulous. Studies now showing that that clinical expression of autism actually coincides with a big increase in the in the volume of the brain, you can actually show on cereal magnetic magnetic resonance imaging serial Emory, how the brain starts to the brain volume starts to increase, and that's very important because parents will often remember, oh, my kid got vaccinated on eighteen. Months of age or or fifteen months of age and to link the two, but now you can go back to six months of agents. The studies done the university of North Carolina Chapel Hill showing so that you could do an MRI at six months of age and they can predict now with they say with ninety percent accuracy, which of the kids will go on to develop autism. And then you could take what are they saying? What what are they saying, you they can see are you have to go? We can go into detail in the paper, but they can see certain things on signatures on MRI that tell them that this kid is going to go on to develop. Okay. So in fact, there is a way to test positive for autism. Then with this serial. That's what they think right now, we have the ninety nine, gene. So we can even take it back further by doing what's called Holik some sequencing sequencing all the DNA all the express DNA of an individual in. Rachel's case, we did that and we actually find the mutation in gene controlling neuronal connections. Which makes a lot of sense. If you think moment autism. Yeah. Of course. So so there is a way to to show whether children will be more likely to develop autism. And there's there is a way to to look at their brain through FM aura at a very early age. And and also do the in do genetic sequence. So it's not simply a matter of how they perform on cognitive test. That's right. That's right. We're getting much better at getting arms around the diagnosis. Why do you think there's so many people that have these anecdotal stories of their child getting vaccinated, especially large doses of vaccines when they hit them with like ten in a row? And then all the sudden or measles, measles mumps and rebellious, the one that gets repeated over and over again, that's the one that made my child have autism. I've heard that so many times, and I've heard it from friends from friends that have children that have autism. They had a child their child got the measles mumps rebellious shot and then immediately. There was a very distinct change in the child's behavior. Well, no question when you get the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine, many times kids cry and things like that. And then. Autism will then begin sometime between the first and second year of life. So it's logical to want to connect the two. But now, we know it's not even plausible because we know that if you go back to that MRI at six months of age or go back prenatally, we can even determine which kids are gonna go onto autism. So even. Even in that complimenting get complimenting. It are massive epidemiologic. Studies done over one million kids that in fact, a new paper was just released this week showing that kids who get the MR get the vaccine are no more likely to get autism than kids who don't who. Don't get the vaccine and the converse is also true kids on the autism. Spectrum are no more likely to have gotten the Emma more vaccine kids, not on the autism spectrum. Okay. So so it's the combination of that those big studies have over one million kids together with knowing what autism is completely rules out the possibility. Right. So these genes excuse me, the the issue with these genes, and then the ability to scan the brain with the cereal MRI, and so you can tell which children have the propensity is it possible that children have all these issues and then do not get autism or do one hundred percent. Of those children with those issues get autism. That's a good question. I don't know. I'm vaccine scientists, I'm you know, the not about the the well well biologist, but I'm the vaccine scientists who twos really tried to deep dive in autism doing research on the book versus human development. Right. Right. Okay. So. So what you're saying though, is that if a child does not have these mutations and doesn't have these issues that are present in during cereal MRI that they will not go on to develop autism is that far as we can tell we can tell so children without those issues who get vaccinated have have no problems, which most children have no problems. Right. Yeah. I mean, the, you know, we've learned a lot about the the risk of vaccines and the numbers are extrordinary. I mean, the risk of severe adverse event happening after getting a vaccine is roughly on the order of one in a million between between one in a million and one in ten billion. So and I found an internet report wants is a delight likelihood of getting struck by lightning as one in seven hundred thousand. So it's, you know, the likelihood of having a severe event after a vaccine is your odds are better of getting struck by lightning than when you say severe. What do you mean by? Severe event the well, the there's actually a table that's put out by the national vaccine compensation act that includes shoulder injury. That's one encephalitis and says older entering. Yeah. That's actually from the actual injection yet. Put getting injecting it in the wrong place. Oh, so it goes into the joint or something. Yeah. Yeah. Is that common? No, no. So there there have been issues children have adverse effects and reactions to vaccines. What do you attribute those two? But one one in a million, I think, you know, in some cases, biological variability. I think some cases introvertedly if it's a live virus vaccine like the measles, mumps rubella vaccine, and you have an underlying immune deficiency that wasn't picked up before the virus can replicate better. But very rare things like that. Right. So as far as you know, children who are healthy who get. Vaccine is it's not biologically possible for them to develop these traits these mutations in the genes, and these issues that you see president as best we can tell right now that seems to be the case right as best you could tell right now. It's a great thing to say I but for people that are on the outside. Like, what does that mean? I'm not a doctor. I'm not smart enough to understand what Dr Who has saying. What does he say what we can tell can we tell? So here's what we can tell no studies of one million children that there's no link between vaccines and autism. That's number one. And and so let me purse holidays let me let me purchase hope to into bits. So there's there's the studies on one million childrens showing the vaccines do not cause autism. That's part one. The second is. And then I'll do a deeper diamond each of them. The second part shows not only is there massive evidence that there's no link between vaccines and autism. There's no plausibility because we know so much about autism. Help begins in pregnancy. And so let's go back to the first part. The first part is studies in over one million children one of the things that the vaccine lobby does is they played this game of what I was not really a game. But what what they see what they do is play this kind of thing vaccine whack-a-mole because at first they alleged was the mar- vaccine, and that came out out of the study that was published in the Lancet nineteen Ninety-Eight, then another group came along and said, no, no, no, we didn't mean the MR vaccine, we meant the Mirasol preservative that used to be in vaccine and the scientific community not only debunked the Amar linked. They debunked the Amira selling then the anti vaccine lobby came along and said, no, no, we didn't mean that. We're spacing vaccines too close together. Then they changed to around again saying now, it's. The album or aluminum and vaccine so and then each time the scientific community responds with massive epidemiologic. Studies showed just absolutely none of those things are true. And do you think that it's just when you look at say if there's one in a million that has an issue with this, and they're not autism. So what whatever those issues are that they hear these stories and these stories do accumulate because there's three hundred plus million people in this country and over ten twenty years of one million you develop a significant history of cases, where children did have issues with vaccines. So these people hear about these stories and people are terrified, obviously, you're I have children become very over protective of children who worry a lot. Right. And then you also don't know why do they get so many shots all in a row? Like, why does a baby get ten shots in a day? It seems crazy. Well, they don't get ten shots in a day. Most. Most of the vaccines are now combined. So for instance, in one vaccine, we can vaccinate against Syria. Pertussis tetanus polio, HAMAs influenza type b which is terrible cause of meningitis and some cases now even hepatitis a one shot is protected hoop of all combine, and there's all sorts of study showing that it's safe to combine them in. And it's fantastic. Now, you can vaccinate with one shot against six diseases. So and these are life threatening disease, right? So the only concern is the child's immune system when they're embargoed with this one. So a lot of times it causes. It'd be tired or they're get sick. Apprentice siemian system is not bombarded. That's another kind of its misnomer that the Arab misunderstanding that's put up by the anti vaccine lobby. Remember the child's gut the intestines and the respiratory tree. Is is this. Oregon's of antigen presentation. A baby on average is exposed to hundreds of new antigens every day. So the idea that you're going to quote, overwhelm the immune system with vaccine against six diseases. Just doesn't make any sense again. This is all phony baloney stuff put out by the anti vaccine lobby. Let's let's be clear the anti vaccine lobby owns the internet right now. They've what does that mean? What that means is they've got they've put out now by some estimates five hundred anti vaccine websites. So that every time you put the word vaccine into a search engine. Whether it's the yahu who Google you're going to get anti vaccine misinformation. That's number one second. We know. Now, it's amplified social media like Facebook other forms of social media, so third, you know, look at the Amazon site. I mean, it's it's incredible. So my book this book, the good news is I think right now, it's the highest rated pro vaccine book on. Amazon the bad news is overall ranked about twenty because there's nineteen other phoney bologna anti vaccine books. So the Amazon is the biggest purveyor now of anti vaccine books. Wait, it gets even worse than you also have. Now, they've come politicized. They have political action committees in multiple states lobbying state legislators about fall with plying them with false information about what backs vaccines do. So. And and the problem is we don't have a robust system of pro vaccine advocacy to counter it, so we don't really hear as much as we need to from the federal government from the CDC from the search surgeon general so unfortunately in this country that defensive vaccines false to a handful of academics like myself, and you know, I'm an academic. I wrote a book what what chance do I stand against this major media empire that why do you think? Exists. Why do you think there is this major media empire? That's against vaccines. That's a great question. What's the motive? What's the motivation number one? And number two. Where's the money coming from right, right? There's real money behind this millions of dollars behind this to put out phony, documentaries and phony books. What's a good phone documentary? Two point two. Well, I'm a little reluctant to say because they're Sola Tisch's event. And and you know, I don't have the means to defend a lawsuit, and that's out there these documents. I'd usually don't mean specific showrooms or I understand these documentaries. What do you think their motivation is do you think they earnestly believe that vaccines do cause harm vaccines do crowds? I. Autism. I don't know. I mean is there some kind of other agenda that they have. I mean, we do know in some cases that the some elements of the anti vaccine lobby are promoting phony autism therapies, right? They're doing terrible things. Like this thing called MS, which are bleach Animas watts. Yeah. Bleach giving bleach animals to get you into chil- the children bleach bleach because their cleansing the immune system cleansing them of toxin, though. It's really awful and they're doing key Latian therapy, which is very dangerous. Does that that's where they they claim? You know kids are overdose with toxic metal. So they give chemical that actually can kill the metal. But it can kill it your calcium and put you into a fatal arrhythmias. Well, they're also who is doing this key Latian therapy or you can Google. Okay. It's or whatever interesting or these doctors like sun some cases there doctors, unfortunately, or other. Their health professionals. And what is I mean? I'm sure you've studied the evidence. There's no evidence. And then and then they're doing hyperbaric therapy, which is really bad so hyperbaric therapies bad. Well for doesn't do anything for autism. That's okay. But it's it's good for recovering from injuries and yet under certain selected cer-. But who knows what who knows what it's doing to a young kid? Right. I mean, so you shouldn't be doing that the then the other then that's one. So how much of this is being driven by financial motivation, peddling these phony autism there. I can't say my sense is that's not the big piece of this. You know, there's also some reports now Russian bots and trolls that are amplifying this and sewing political instability Ryan tree. But again, you add that all up the phony autism therapies, the Russian bots and troll. The my mind that really doesn't get our arms around the big driver this thing. So I think we really need some good investigative journalists to look into this. Well, do you think that they're? Has some sort of a concerted effort, or do you think it's just a bunch of people that really believe that vaccines do cause autism? They don't truly understand the science, and they haven't talked to someone like you. And maybe they have this idea that cemented in their mind. And they're not willing to look at it, objectively and look at the full spectrum of possibilities and look at the science behind what you guys are saying because in their head they've been saying vaccines cause autism. They've been saying it for so long. Once someone gets that in their connected to that. It's very difficult for them shift gears view, people have a really hard time not being married to an idea. Yeah. No, I agree. And you know, when I talked a nice spend a lot of time going around the country giving what are called grand rounds lectures to hospitals and medical schools pediatric grand rounds. So I've had the chance to talk to a lot of pediatricians, nurses, and nurse practitioner. Even and more and more than a few. Parents my impression is most of the parents are. Who who are called to be so called vaccine hesitant as the word of the day are not really deeply dug it, I mean, you can you can have a conversation with them and explain to them like we're talking now in a very, you know, nontechnical way, you know, the evidence showing vaccines don't cause autism in the lack of plausibility given that that it begins in pregnancy, and they'll vaccinate their kids. There is another percentage. Not I don't know what the percentage is whether ten fifteen percent that are deeply dug in and our holy invested in this conspiracy theory that the that the government is in cahoots with the pharmaceutical companies and blahdy blahdy, blah. And then if you try to talk them out of it, they just think you're part of the conspiracy. So it's sort of not no win approach there. But but most parents you can have a good conversation with most parents. Yeah, it's not necessarily even most parents, right? I mean, what you're dealing with this these people that maybe they're into a bunch of different alternate therapies, a bunch of different kinds. Cleansing. And you know, there's a lot of that nonsense that you find online where I mean, look there's legitimate. But, but I guess my point sorry, please. No. But I guess my point is parents don't get the chance because they're so inundated with phony anti vaccine information that they do Google. Yeah. Or whatever, you know, whatever search they do. So what do you think should be done? Should there be a pro vaccine documentary that makes sense? I thank thanks for that question. I think there's three things that need to be done. I think first of all some of this anti vaccine media empire needs to be dismantled dismantle dismantled. And then. Say whether the wrong, right? Like shouldn't. I mean, it seems like there should be some sort of a debate. Right. Like, if there's someone who's saying that there's some evidence vaccines caused debate you're saying there's no evidence of vaccines caused debate excuse me that vaccine causes autism. And you're saying there's no evidence that vaccines cross autism. There should be a debate where some sort of a like some sort of a monitored conversation where you can have you versus someone else and break this down. Yeah. But that that has that's too short too. Because you know, then it gives some false legitimacy to anti vaccine side. It's like debating, the smoking causes cancer. Yeah. But doesn't isn't there? Already a problem. I mean, it seems like if there's this many if you do Google search, and you're just overwhelmed right with anti it seems like the fight has already been lost. If that's the case. That's right. So giving them legitimacy let's not necessarily giving them the legitimacy. It's giving them. If you give you rather a forum to dismiss. Their legitimacy. Yeah. I mean, I think you know, part of what has to be done is. I mean, and this gets into all sorts of first amendment issues, and I'm not a lawyer. But, you know, the the idea that Amazon now is putting out all of these phony books, and and phony documentaries now, they're just a distributor, right? They don't have to go over every book that they sell the fine to buy. Maybe they should. I mean, not mind toothcomb. But maybe there should be some screening, maybe Amazon may be Facebook should all be hiring chief scientific officers to you know, putting some stops on dissemination of information because it's harming children, right? I mean, I mean, this is the reason I get passionate about it. The reason I actually wrote the book is kind of interesting. I it actually happened before all of these big measles outbreaks that we've been having. Yeah. I'm I noticed that in Texas. There was where my laboratories at Texas children's hospital and Baylor College of medicine we noticed that. There was a steep increase in the number of kids whose parents were. Opting them out of getting vaccinated to the point. Where in Texas. We have over six sixty thousand kids not getting their vaccines in the state of Texas. And those are the ones we know about we don't know anything about the three hundred and twenty five thousand home schooled kids, so we probably over one hundred thousand kids and not getting vaccinated all because of this misinformation campaign, and I was really troubled by the fact that there was no response to it. And that was drove me to write the book. So the point is now Texas is very vulnerable to measles outbreaks, and I say measles more than the others because that's the most highly contagious disease. What what's the danger of child getting measles? So is there any benefit to a child getting measles in terms of their immune system? No, there's no benefit, and that's one of the phony books. They put out melanie's marvelous measles. I mean, it's it's awful. So what did they say in that book, they say, build your immune system? It does not it does not. It's remember after. So let's go back a little bit smallpox was awry. Medicated in the late nineteen seventies through vaccination one smallpox was radically radically. Measles was arguably the single leading killer of children, globally, two point six million children died every year measles because it causes measles pneumonia measles. And Steph Elias talk about permanent neurologic injury. That's a bad actor measles and deftness at all and then through global vaccination campaigns. We brought it down by the year two thousand to about half a million kids dying. And then the Gates Foundation put up seven hundred and fifty million dollars to create the gobbly lines. Global lines for vaccines immunization we've brought it down now to one hundred thousand. But now measles was coming back. Europe's disaster right now, we've got eighty thousand measles cases in two thousand eighteen in Europe. And now it's coming back to the US. And so my worry is this meet the anti vaccine media empire is started out as a fringe group. But now, it's really affecting public health allowing a deadly disease. Measles to come back. Do you think if there's some sort of definitive evidence that shows to the general public like you could you could show it to them like this is what causes autism? We've narrowed it down to these genes. And it it has nothing to do with vaccines. If you give these vaccines to people without these genes, there is no way, they're gonna get autism. They get autism specifically because of these variations in their chain. You just you just summarize the book, right? But I mean, we name more than a book. It does disturb me when I hear about all these kids getting measles. And and not just measles. But means in some places polio's made a resurgence. Well, polio. You know, we're down to about three three countries. Still have transmission awhile type polio, its Nigeria Pakistan Afghanistan, so hopefully, we're getting arms around polio. But measles is now come roaring back with a vengeance. Having people contract polio outside of those areas. I mean, those are the areas where it's every now. And then some cases pop we've got some. Wherever in this could get onto a whole 'nother topic wherever there's collapse and health systems infrastructure during two from war, political instability, these diseases can come back they can come back and the people that are vulnerable children that are not immunized. That's right. And when you're immunized, you're not vulnerable. That's right. Yeah. This is it's a really confusing thing for people because on the outside. They people always want to think that big pharma. I've said some terrible things about big pharma. And the reason being is painkillers because painkillers antidepressants and there's SS arise which over prescribed and the painkiller. One kills me because I know people directly that have been addicted to these goddamn things and the doctors are passing them out like candy. So people look at big farm as being oh, these in the monsters that push this. They're also the people that give you things that save people's lives. Yeah. There's a lot going on there. Yeah. I'm the I'm the big defender of of the big pharmaceutical companies. I mean, one of the things that the empty. The insults that anti vaccine her let me as they say Michelle for industry, they say are secretly taking money from Merck and Jackson Smith, lots all crap. I don't take penny from them. And I am it's it's not even how do you just buy from the university pay by the university? And some of that some of my salaries offset by not grants from nonprofit foundations, then this is the national. Right. And then they say I'm secretly making millions of dollars for vaccines for hookworm and schistosomiasis and shots you deal with all that money. I my wife says if only that were the case, right? These are diseases of the poorest of the Pearl never make a penny on these disease. In fact, you know, one of the frustrations I have with the big pharmaceutical companies is we've gotten a lot made a lot of progress of their vaccines. We've gone all the way from discovery through early face, process development and manufacturing, and I and defiling with the FDA investigational new drug applications, but we're kind of stuck at phase one phase two clinical trials because we don't have the big pharma money to take us all the way to licenser. So I've had a lot of meetings with the big pharmaceutical companies to see if they can partner with us and so far that hasn't happened. So is has there ever been any discussion or any interest in creating some sort of a compelling documentary? That's pro vaccination that can counter all these things because there's there's quite a few health. Related documentaries that I know are horse shit because I've talked to actual real scientists and clinical researchers at say like all these things are saying wrong. And this is why the wrong in this. You could show this the wrong. And then when someone says, hey, I saw this documentary. It says it all you should eat. His toast can say listen, man. You got to go here and watch this. And they'll show you why that's nonsense. Right. Is there anything like that? Right now discussion not right now there are some discussions, but we're a long way off from that. And the problem is the anti vaccine documentaries are being destroyed widely distributed widely sold and those people that are talking about it. Here's the other problem whenever I talked to someone about who's been doing this a lot lately or talk to someone about something that passionate about what books you read on it. It was like, well, I saw this documentary. Well, very, and there are books and factors. Nineteen ninety nine hundred and a head of mine. Books that are written by actual researchers people that have spent decades in labs understanding what's going on. You don't really, you know, you don't get a lot of that from the people that are anti anything. Right. That's that's why I wrote the new book, it's a very confusing thing for parents because you're scared. You know, you have this little tiny baby that you love more than anything in this world. And then the doctor say, hey, we've got this round of vaccines common. And you're just terrified that you're going to do something to your child can turn your child into someone who's compromised. Yeah. And and the point is problems these diseases are back now. And so they're the urgency to vaccinate is now more than ever. I mean, remember right now, look what's going on in Vancouver Washington right now, we're the measles. Outbreak is underway. The ones who who are greatest risk are infants under the age twelve months, not yet old enough to get their vaccine. So that if you're a parent right now living in Vancouver, Washington, you're terrified terrified about. Taking your baby out, the WalMart or pathetic. Vaccine because their. Right. So now the diseases coming back because the older kids are catching it, and the and the anti vaccine lobby uses terms like personal liberties and medical freedom. Will we're the personal liberties of this parent now who terrified the taker in her infant anti vaccine lobby. No, I know that Robert Kennedy, jR, is he's a he's a big one. He's a big one. And he seems like a very intelligent guy her could he not be aware of the science behind this. What is he getting wrong? What what he's getting wrong is just about everything, you know, he's formed an organization called children's health defense and and start he had a press conference about it. I think it was September October of last year. It is probably one of the best organized antibac- seen groups out there. Now, he's doing other things other than vaccines. He's doing a lot of things about environmental health and things like that. I don't know any part of that business. I've only followed what the what he does with vaccines. But it's all it's all nonsense. Why is he doing this about? Axiom. Don't know. What's I mean, you have to ask what what's his motivation? Would he be a guy that you would want to have a debate with or have a discussion with? But again, I mean, I I'm I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a debate. Because it's like, it's like debating, I dunno. It's like debating holocaust denier, whether the holocaust exist. I mean, not that this rise. I understand what you're saying. But if you're again, I want to bring this up if you're complaining, there's nineteen books ahead of yours that are anti vaccine books. You've already lost the battle like it's time to regroup and maybe regrouping would be confronting someone with actual scientific information. Mean you are a real doctor your guy who actually studied this. And you're a man who understands the science your legitimate academic. You could you could actually put dent in this with a real conversation. Yeah. Potentially potentially. I mean, what would he be able to say like what is his take on it? Well, remember, he's he's an attorney, and he's he's very clever. Great and right now, he knows how our presumably knows how to do argument. In court and one of my scientific, right? But do you think that he wants to deceive people or do you think that maybe he's just incorrect in his accumulation of data? Yeah. I can't say what his motivation is. But his his his information is is highly misleading. Now, what else is you say the lobby is this an organized thing. Good question. I mean, we again, we need somebody who really wants to do a deep dive in this kind of dissect out the pieces. Yeah. To understand. But it's it's impressive. What you've got out there in terms of the hundreds of websites, and the amplification on social media and everything else is it are there just one or two or three groups behind it. Or is it a random collection of organizations that that needs to be looked up that does need to know what what do you think is causing autism and in your personal estimate? Do you think that it is a? That there's a rise in the factors that are causing autism. Or do you think that it's a a rise in the understanding of these variables that contribute to it that you could diagnose people within that before the previously undiagnosed? So I I think most of it is that that we're just diagnosing it more including individuals in the autism category that we didn't before. And by the way, the numbers are about to go up even more because we're getting better at diagnosing girls and women with autism. Which is also quite interesting used to say was ten to one voice girls. And now, we know there are a lot more girls and women on the autism spectrum. It just that they're usually more verbal, and they can camouflage it better, but they have very high rates of Comber biddies like obsessive compulsive disorder attention deficit hyperactivity disorder a lot of the teenage girls with eating disorders. Now, they're finding could actually be on the autism spectrum. So the numbers are about to go up again. I mean, that's just an example. I mean is I guess what you really? Trying to get at is beyond that is there is there a bona fide increase beyond the number of diagnosis. And and that one I'm still not sure about the I wrote an article about early onset gender dysphoric being connected to young girls autism, right? Yeah. There's a disproportionate number of girls with gender dis foia who turned out to be also test. I've heard that as well. Yeah. That's actually. So it's really fascinating about now. Unfortunate fastening at the there. There's there's a nice paper by very good environmental scientists in Philander gin who used to be a Mount Sinai now, I think he's a Boston College now, and he publishes about five or six chemicals in the environment. Which if you're exposed to for long periods of time during early pregnancy. Your child will be born with some features that resemble autism. Do you know what those chemicals all I have to? Remember? I talked about him in the book on one of them is deputy. Coat felpro acc- acid, which is a psychiatric medicine used as a mood stabilizer or an antidepressant. So prolong use of depakote during pregnancy has been linked to. Something that resembles autism common Medicaid. It's a common medication. But now that we know this information, we don't use it anymore. So one of the things that I've been saying to, you know, people like Bobby Kennedy and everything else if you really want if you really think there's some environmental linked to autism. We've got a list of at least six chemicals during early exposure in pregnancy that are probably causing mutations and things like that that are leading to autism wire weight, and why isn't anybody looking into that? It's just crazy. I mean, so all the focus on goes into vaccines, and it kind of sucks all the action out of the room. So that, you know, really understanding the search for autism gets the later in some cases doesn't get pursued at all or the other thing that happens in many state, legislatures and things like that the focus is so much about vaccines that we don't talk about what autism parents really need. I mean, what do I need for Rachel? We need, you know, employment counseling and help we need mental health counseling. What do we do after? We're. On Rachel right now is living with us. I'm I turned sixty my wife is, you know, fifty eight what happens to us ten fifteen twenty years from now, there's no roadmap. Whereas the so so all of that gets shunted aside because of these phony baloney anti vaccine argument, that's what I get angry. That's when I start to realize these guys and addition to affecting public health are actually hurting autism families as well. Well, that makes sense. I mean, and I can completely understand why the subset you especially as scientists. Now when you're talking about these various chemicals that you think do contribute to or possibly cause autism. Maybe we should really concentrate on that and publish something about this. Is this something that is there an article that people can go to says something about this is I talk about it in the book, and the could fine opened up the book, I could provide it for you. Is there anything that people can read online about this without going to your book? Probably, you know, one of the problems that we face in this country is that we put a lot of scientific articles behind paywall is a real source of frustration for me, they do that. Well, one of the one of the things that I've done now is I'm one of the I founded a an open access journal call the public library science neglected tropical diseases. So that anybody with a computer, you know, an internet connection and a printer can download the articles. Free of charge. And we need more of that does great. But right now, if someone wants to find out these chemicals, they have to buy your book, or by some sort of access to scientific papers. I'm not sure what that particular paper. Whether it's behind a paywall or not on them. Look, I mean besides measles. What other diseases are more prevalent now because people not vaccinating the kids once there's three diseases that I worry about the most actually for well, whooping, cough is another one. So that that's one, but the other one I worried about is the flu vaccine kids aren't getting their flu vaccine last year and the twenty thousand flu epidemic a hundred and fifty unvaccinated kids died of influenza despite the recommendation of accident because he knew enlighten me on this. Because what I've been told is that sometimes they get the flu vaccine wrong. So you can get vaccinated. But it doesn't doesn't protect you for the strain of flu that everybody's getting while. So that's again, something that was heavily an idea of. Heavily pushed by the anti vaccine lobby. Here's the story. You're right lashed, partially right? Last year. The there was not. Perfect match between the between the the virus and the vaccine the killed virus and the vaccine and the wild type flu strain that was out there. But it was good enough to prevent you from dying. And it was good enough to would likely prevent you from being hospitalized. So would affect even if you did get that's right because it was enough cross protection. So that it would it would mitigate the symptoms. That's confusing to people because of they have the flu they say, oh, well that it didn't work. That's right. But it did because it prevents you from getting sick and dying. And and again that was that was a message that never really got out and twenty let's talk about someone like me who's a healthy person. I've had the flu before, but I don't usually get a flu shot. That's crazy. You should especially now. Especially now as you're getting older was because flu is one of the leading is probably the single leading infectious disease killer of of adults in the United States. But every time I've had it. It's really been like just a couple of days out. I rest. Well, you know, fluid you got lucky my friends what it is. Well, you know, sure taking care. Let's so if you look at the eighty thousand adults who died in the influenza epidemic of twenty eight teen in the United States. You're right. A lot of them had underlying things like diabetes, or or noncommunicable, cardiovascular disease or underlying respiratory disease. Maybe they were smokers. But that there's still, but they're still thought which are still thousands of individuals who are perfectly healthy died of influenza that we know. So you don't get your flu vaccine, you're taking terrible. And why not why I mean what what are you risking by getting the flu vacs? I'm busy, bro. You know, what you, you know, where I, you know, where I get my vaccinations. Walgreens, even better we have a big grocery store chain in Texas big supermarket called HEB to get it up the nose again, I get it. I get the injection right in the pharmacist the far all of my vaccines. I've gotten for the last few years have been given by the pharmacist interesting. So couldn't be easier. Are you have you ever gotten the flu since the beginning the vaccine every year? Well, you know, I've gotten I've gotten sick with a coal like a like a sore throat and feeling crummy was that a mild case of flu. I can't really tell. Okay. But you've never gotten sick right after you got a vaccine some people do right know, some get a vaccine, and then they have an adverse reaction to sometimes, you know, after getting your vaccine, you can get some soreness, and you can feel maybe a slight fever or few hours or a day. But usually, it's your fine. What is that? What does that? What does that fever? Why why are you getting a fever because the vaccine is stimulating the immune system and stimulating the inflammatory system. So even though you feel like you're getting sick because the vaccine is actually good for your immune system that that's right? And you're not really sick. I mean, it's nothing like is nearly as bad as getting the flu the other vaccine now that you're getting up there you have to start considering the shingles vaccine shingle wrecks, and that's a that's a great vaccine at hurts though for a couple of days. Do you take care of your immune system and other ways? Do you take probiotics? Are you cautious about your diet? I'm not as cautious about my diet is I should be. I'm a junk food Hollick. Actually, that seems like a terrible thing for your. It is a terrible thing for my health and something my wife is working on it. But that's seems ridiculous for someone who works with health. Yeah. Yeah. Some sometimes man, I just get it. Right. How often? What how often how often do I steal a bag of chips or something like garbage? I don't know hopefully, not every day. But maybe a couple of times a week. That's what Rachel my my daughter with autism. That's like our thing is to go to the it's called the burger joint door to shake shack to get to get a cheeseburger, we'll sticks sneak some fries. So so you live in large. We call it like that mouth pleasure. So much willing to sacrifice a little bit. Yeah. I, you know, I, you know, I have to concede. That's the case. Well, there's I mean, I have to tell you. But there's a large body of data that connects poor diet to a host of disease. That seems like a crazy decision for guy in your line of work. There you go sometimes the. Sometimes the it's not all brain. It's it it's something else. But I mean, if you ate healthy food. I mean, the thing is your body starts craving healthy food you start feeling. No, no question. No question about it. Do you take vitamins? I don't take Adams real. Wow. Think they do. I don't think there needed because most and the American and the American up hold up hold up. You don't think they're needed where you're junk food. Well, hopefully, I'm not only eating junk food. But you know, there's a large body of clinical research on the efficacy of vitamins, especially vitamins, div items. I have taken vitamin d for periods better recommendation of my internist in what about essential fatty acids, which are great for your brain fish oil, all these different things. That are fantastic. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna argue with you. Got it had gotten you. Got it over me. Yeah. Listen to, but it would you would have a much better argument. You're making my life. Stay here. Taking care of yourself. A hundred percent said, but she still needs. Bet you still need your vaccines. I'm sure you do but vaccines aren't going to prevent cancer. No, that's true. Right. And there's a lot of diseases or diabetes or vascular disease. A lot of these diseases are connected directly to die. Yeah. Yeah. Come on and other lifestyle change. Yeah. Senate sedentary life. I tried to go on the treadmill for thirty minutes. Try. I do actually I'm pretty good about thirty minutes every morning for an actual walk. It's more interest. I did that too. So I I don't know. But I deal with thirty minutes on the treadmill in the warning. And then I and my I take a long while because my wife in the evening good. But it, you know, the the thing that knocks the crap out of the travel. Yes, I find that very frustrating because you know, exercise, and then you eat you don't eat. Well, well, you don't control the diet as well. So that's. Well, I have a solution to that and eat well and exercise those those are solutions to that. Just do it. You know, I treat it like, I'm brushing my teeth. I brush my teeth every day. Yeah. I exercise everyday to. Yeah. So when I travel I don't have an option when I land I go to the gym, this is how goes I land. I get my hotel room. I put my short. Yeah. I did that too. I do that too. See only if you have to do it. If say, this is just what gets done this is how you do it. Yeah. I try to be really compulsive about them. So yeah, I have it written. Now. I know what I'm going to do especially if the great if the hotel is a good, Jim the whole, you know, if they have weights and a bunch of all run outside if you don't have you run. Yeah to. Yeah. Not very well. But no, yeah. Yeah. We're gonna get you healthy, buddy. Yeah. Can't be pushing only chemicals in injectable forms to facilitate health fair enough. Yeah. Or not chemicals vaccine samsar. What's in them? What I mean? It's some sort of chemical now. No other antigens, right? They're they're fluid macromolecules. What's liquids typically would be saline or salt water? Now, what is missing from today's vaccine protocol if anything in terms of diseases, we should be vaccinating for but nothing. Yeah. There certainly are. You know, one of them is a big big problem on young infants especially premature infants called RSP respiratory since issue virus infection. What does that come from it? It's you know, it's a respiratory virus that peeks around the same time that flew does. So it's a very severe respiratory illness. So this is again, one of those vaccines. That's not a. Moneymaker? So the Bill of Melinda Gates Foundation is trying to provide grants for supporting that one that that's a good one. And then they're all the diseases that affect poor people both in developing countries, even among the poor and the United States this book. That's that's the next one called marble health the next one. So this is not released yet. This is out this actually this actually preceded the, oh, that's one. Now this book is all about poor people and infectious diseases and the rise of these infectious diseases, even in the United States. That's right. So, you know, when we think about so I, you know, led this big campaign to raise awareness of somebody. Call neglected tropical diseases Ren TD's. These are the most common afflictions of people living in poverty. I call them the most important disease you've never heard of their diseases like schistosomiasis and shower Gus disease leash Manassas and have been. Voting my life to seeing if we could develop vaccines for those diseases in the nonprofit sector because the big pharmaceutical companies just don't see just aren't going to take these on. So we're trying to do it in the nonprofit sector, but the this book, the blue marble health book came out of some number crunching that I did using data from the World Health Organization or something called the institute for health metrics and evaluation, which is based in Seattle Washington that found something very surprising. And that is most of the world's poverty related. Diseases are not necessarily in the poorest, most devastated countries of Africa being Democratic Republic of Congo Central African Republic, they're there, but on the numbers basis. Most of these poverty related diseases are actually in the G twenty economies the twenty wealthiest economies together with Nigeria which is not that g twenty country, but has an economy bigger than the bottom. Three or four. So that was pretty amazing amazing for me to find that out because you know, at first I didn't believe the numbers because I said, well, how could it be if they're poverty related diseases? Why are the in the twenty wealthiest economies? And then I realized that it's among the poor living in wealthy countries. So the poorest of the rich today now account for most of the world's poverty related diseases. And what what's the cause of this? So why why the link with poverty, so that's a great Kosovo one of the things I do in the book is I ask that. Well, what is it about poverty that's making susceptible? I don't think we really know. I mean, clearly in some cases, if you live in poor dilapidated housing without window screens things like mosquitoes and kissing bugs and sandflies can get inside the house or if you look in poor neighborhoods like interrupt Houston. You see a lot of environmental degradation or around the neighborhood, obviously discarded tires. I read it. He's gypped I- mosquito or standing water. But I think what what what did tire still does. So. Yeah. So one of the best habitats for the mosquito that transmits Dangi Zeka and chicken ganja and yellow fever are discarded tires. That's what they love. So this, you know, if you go into poor neighborhoods. You'll see a lot of tired dumping, for instance. And that's those are habitats for the that eighties. Gypped I'm skeet including here in southern cali-. So is it when the water gets in the tax write a little bit of a lot. That's exactly yeah. I, you know, I moved into a house once in Encino down the street from here, in fact, and no in lived in the house for about a year and a half two years and the pool had not been taken care of. And I went out into the pool and it was green and there were schools of mosquito skied oh heaven heaven's. Yeah. So strange, so so, yeah, absolutely go into poor neighborhoods, abandoned swim. Pools things like that. That's that's where we're getting a number of these diseases. We don't have very many mosquitoes in southern California. I mean, it's really kind of amazing in that regard. Well, it depends. So, you know, some counties where they do aggressive spraying and things like that you won't, but many counties, you probably probably some of the poorer counties poor districts, you still do, but I mean in terms of the way it is on the east coast. Like, I grew up in Boston and in the summertime, you just have fucking mosquitoes. Everywhere you just can't get away from them. And then I've been to Alaska, which is the craziest place of ever been to in my life in terms of mosquitoes. Right. Have you been I haven't been to Alaska, Larry, you get out of your car, and they attack you like a horde of birds because you only get one month of the year exam have they're super aggressive, and they're they're also very large the big problems along the Gulf Coast of the US. We have that aged I- mosquito. And that's why I've got so worried about Zeke virus hitting the Gulf Coast of the US. Yeah. Mosquitoes and other countries obviously contain. Malaria. I mean, we've been very fortunate that that's never made it over here. Well, no, we we used to have malaria used to be widespread in the United States. Both the one that was a real killer disease called Faust Cipro malaria on the Gulf Coast and even up into Illinois in the higher river valley. We had a lot of malaria when was us. I've I've asked in the eighteen hundreds. In fact, there's a whole there's a book written by dickens when he visited the United States called Martin chuzzlewit when he describes all these sickly people in Illinois in Illinois and the confluence of the Mississippi and the higher river. He's clearly describing malaria. Wow, I did not know. So what stopped it? So that's a great question. We so there's actually a very nice book written by a medical historian at Duke University. And they Margaret Humphreys called malaria race in poverty, and she has offices. But I think she's onto something that it the decreased the malaria. Dropped in associated with aggressive economic development. So that the FDR's new deal included something called the agriculture adjustment. Act that got people off of off of with agrarian pursuits and put them into factories quality housing went up, and that's probably what caused a lot of the reduction in these tropical diseases. Remember there really diseases poverty. I spent a lot of time working in China. And I'm seeing that play out right now in China. China has cuts his very very aggressive program of economic development, mostly in the eastern part of the country. But in the southwest part of the country, go into you nonstop Sean provinces, you go back in time seventy five years, and you still see those diseases so spread de think that the best cure or the best way to stop malaria would be just to increase the economy of these areas in Africa, where they're experiencing at clearly economic development is a very potent driver. Now what it is about economic development. We still don't have. Our arms around that yet. But economic development is very important just like for the neglected tropical diseases. We study, but you know, unfortunately, for many countries economic development is still decades away. So that's why that's the rationale for developing. These vaccine is it because economic development moves people into more urban environments where there's less tropical diseases. I think that's part of it. Although now, we're seeing some tropical diseases thrive in urbanised environments like, you know, yellow fever and and dingy as well. So it's not only urban is Asian. You has to be urbanization with good planning. That's not done unchecked that outstrips the infrastructure in terms of water and sanitation. So this brings me to the thing that I wanted to talk to you about in the first place because this is what you brought up to me when we were doing this fi show. And you you said something to me that it's been haunting me ever since that the vast majority of people that live in tropical climates have parasites. Vast NPR. Yep. That's right. That's right. There's things like talk so plasma Condie. So let's look at the let's look at the hit parade. Right. The top one is one called ask risis intestinal roundworm on the estimates are on eight hundred million people have asked us roundworms in their bellies. Well, so we hundred good sailing. Some more than one in ten people on the planet and mostly people who live in extreme poverty. Four hundred million have hookworm infection for hundred million have whip more. So these are warming diseases two hundred million people with scabies, which is an echo parasite on on the skin causes. Terrible itching and secondary bacterial infections schistosomiasis, another one the point is every almost every single person. Who's in extreme poverty has one of these what I call them neglected tropical diseases. And what are the interesting features about them is they're very debilitating. They not so that not only occur. In the setting poverty. But I think they reinforce poverty because they make people too sick to go to work, they make they actually shave we can show the shave IQ points off of kids when they have them. Well, this is the hookworm connection to the idea of the slack jawed dumb southerner. Right right states of America. Right. And now one of the things that we found so RA RA Helio Mahia on my faculty working with environmental activists named Catherine Coleman flowers and Alabama found that hook where missile present Alabama among might not to people. So they they understand what we're talking about. Because for the longest time. There was this stereotype about people that lived in the south that they were adul- minded, right? And this could be directly connected to hookworm infection which had run rampant. Right. There was even the term given called they called the germ of laziness than hookworm infection because it causes severe Nimia. So if you're walking around with terrible anemia, of course, your your to your. Not feeling up to working a full day and all that sort of stuff hookworm was widely president president in the southeastern United States turn of the twentieth century. And then as malaria went down with economic development. So so did hookworm infection as well. But we still have pockets in this country in this wasn't understood at the time. They didn't know that these people were infected with corm. For for for forever. No up until very recently. So the cause of Okram wasn't discovered till nineteen hundred what is that? 'cause it's called indicator. Americanise the American killer is and that's the name of the worm and this walking barefoot or that goes in through the hands or in enters all parts of the body. So it's very common to get it from walking barefoot. That's right, which was more common in the south. Right. Right. And so that's one of the diseases we've made a vaccine for this now in clinical trial. Yeah. When I found that one out I was like, oh my God. Well, that's it that totally makes sense. Because for the longest time was there was that stereotype. And then we find out that it's directly connected to a massive infection of this diseases worm. So these are the diseases that are holding back people who live in poverty, you originally thought only places like the poorest countries in sub Saharan Africa or southeast Asia. But now, I realize it's these pockets of poverty across the entire planet that people are affected by these disease in these. Diseases can be vaccinated. That's where we're trying to prove that we can make a vaccine again. And there's a hookworm vaccine right now in clinical trials Justin clinical wasn't there a Lyme disease vaccine, but the problem was it was actually causing people to get lime disease. So that's a to talk about controversial topics that so there was a Lyme disease vaccine that was developed actually from a colleague of mine ill university. Then it was and they licensed, I think it was to GlaxoSmithKline and they developed it as they call it lime Rix, it was the Lyme disease vaccine and actually most of the study suggests that actually worked pretty well. The problem was there were a number of people who felt that the vaccine made them worse or the said, they had chronic Lyme disease wasn't effective. So it was really a market perception problem more than anything else in the Welte. Mentally, it hurt the bottom line of the company, and they they withdrew it for my friend of mine's, dad got the vaccine and then got Lyme disease. They. Think he got Lyme disease from the vaccine probably not. Probably a weird word lime. Does that's being nice. No, he didn't get lime does no way impossible possible because Lyme disease is caused by the lime bacteria the Spira Kate called beryllium Bergdorf ri- and the vaccine is not alive vaccine, it's a recumbent protein based vaccine so it's not. So there's nothing in that vaccine that could have caused this adverse reaction that they directly attribute to that vaccine. Probably not. Again, you're saying, well, I don't know the patient. I don't I haven't Sam salmon the industry, I hate to swear. I mean, that's the narrative that household. Well, again, you know, what's reinforced by a lot of negative information out there on the internet also reinforced by the fact, they pulled the vaccine pulled the vaccine not because it wasn't working, but because of market perception, and and all that sort of and that was a time before the number of cases of disease have really taken off. So it seems strange to me because they didn't pull the measles mumps rubella vaccine because of perception, why would they pull the Lyme disease vaccine because of perception, I think the reason was is because the the cost benefit equation works a little differently with measles. Measles is a killer disease. Lyme disease was not a killer disease, and directing people now in some case, it seems to be connected to a host of other ailments too. Correct. Like, Lyme disease just. Exacerbates a bunch of different maybe possibly even existing health issues. Well, you have to be careful, you know, the the and this gets into another controversial rabbit hole. I'm not sure we want to get into or not today, but, you know, the infectious disease society of America, for instance, has come out with a strong statement saying that there's really no such thing as chronic Lyme disease. And I'm the scientific evidence does not support something called chronic Lyme disease. He got there. Lots of people suffering with chronic debilitating illness who claimed that it's caused by lime disease. Yes. So this is something that is out there right now. Why is there a debate? Like, what is what it? Why are they saying that there is no such thing as chronic Lyme disease? What's their evidence, the evidence is that there's no evidence that they can detect Spira Keats in the body in many cases, people who've had Lyme disease. Don't have persistent evidence of having an. Nobody's any longer to through the lime spiky. So it's a whole different area. Right. But they do have this, chronic inflammation and pain in their join to have somebody starts breaking down. They have something. But it doesn't seem to the affections society of America, which is one of the lead infectious disease bodies in our country, and I'm not an expert on Lyme disease. So I'm not too comfortable going there with you are saying that there's no evidence that that that's actually associated with active infection with Lyme disease. What are they? How are they describing it? And what how are they saw another? What's so what's causing all these on, the unknown? But isn't it bizarre that they Saint people got Lyme disease first. And then how these host of issues afterwards. The I guess part of the problem is in some cases, they had Lyme disease. I in some cases, they really didn't have lime disease. Unfortunately, there are number of unscrupulous healthcare providers, and even physicians how there that are made. Taking misdiagnosis either they're making a misdiagnosis of Lyme disease, or in some cases, they're actually taking everyone who comes through the door and diagnosing them with lime disease. I'm sure you're where the Lone Star tick writing the allergy to red meat. Yeah. Right. That's really fascinating. Yeah. And that's another one that's on the rise. Correct. Yeah. Well, actually, all tick borne diseases are on the rise now possibly because of climate change. Which is another factor this doing that. So we're seeing you know, if you look now at what are the big drivers of infectious diseases right now in the in not only in the US book globally there really some interesting forces and a lot of them are social determinant. So a big one is poverty. That's that's a huge one. The other big one is political instability in war because it interrupts public health control measures. So for instance, then as Walea which was leading public health control and Latin America for decades. You know with the collapse of the economy and the and the shabas era now into the Madore area Madora area. We've got a terrible situation where we've had measles return to big way. So huge numbers of cases of measles while we had all the neglected tropical diseases come back as well as malaria showbiz disease leash Manassas. So it's really interesting how that is destabilizing the whole region because now Venezuela has one of the largest diasporas of people as big as the diaspora coming out of Syria, Iraq. So now, the diseases are moving into adjacent areas of Brazil and Colombia Ecuador. And so it's really an and that's another big drivers, political instability, the third one, we think is climate change may be very important. So, you know, why did we see this big surge of chicken Guna virus infection in the western hemisphere or Zico, we don't really understand the forces of that. And what's going on in southern Europe? Right now is quite. Turning we've had malaria return to Greece after it's been gone for seventy years malaria's returned to Italy. We're seeing schistosomiasis neglected tropical disease on the island. Of course, we've got Dangi chicken ganja West Nile virus across Italy Spain Portugal. So we're trying to understand why that is. And there's some thought that climate change may be big driver that now what other infectious diseases or parasites rather? Do they have vaccines for today have a vaccine for taco would there's no vaccine for tax plasmas? There's a a prototype malaria vaccine. That's yeah. Well, it's it's an there. There's a malaria vaccine it's called Mosca Rix, the trade name that was developed supported bun with a lot of funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and working in partnership with GlaxoSmithKline and that malaria vaccine. Scene now has been approved for use in children by the European medicine agency. And it's being introduced now in three countries in Africa allowing Ghana and I forgot the third one. I think is there an adverse reaction that people have that stuff because I know the traditional malaria medication. I had friends at took it and had horrible nightmares. Malaria is terrible. Yeah. Gives you very lurid dreams. Yeah. No the so far. No. And so there when you say children, how old are the children that they're vaccinating with this. Well, the problem that you get into with malaria is that before six months of age you have maternal antibodies and remember the original born with antibodies from your mother, and they'll start to wane by six months of age. So the ones who get hospitalized with visas. What's called cerebral malaria, which is a devastating condition or severe malaria Nimia? Which is also a killer are those children between six months of age. And five years of age. Those are the ones that we want to protect now, and it's one of the leading killers of children globally. Right. Right. And and we don't end the vaccine sickle. Some is connected to crack, right? Sickle cell is. It has something to do with people developing an immunity to malaria. That's I'm surprised he knew that from Tiffany haddish who's diffent habit. How dare you? She's a very funny comedian. Okay. I'm sure she is. But she's well, she's really, wow. That's it's not really immunity, but it's a natural protection. So individuals who have the sickle cell trait. Seemed to be partially resistant to malaria, and that's the thinking why the gene for sickle cell has been preserved in Africa for so long as because it does confer some protection against malaria. So it's a reason for keeping the gene in the, gene pool. Yeah, we were actually discussing because a friend that I grew up with died from it. So it seems to only exist in African Americans or Africans is that correct pronounce now, there's some other places as well. But predominantly plays an African and mung African Americans or people whose ancestors came from the tropical climates where. Yeah. So it's it's really quite an amazing story. So there's no no no vaccine for taco plasma. Is there? Anything on the horizon is anything we worked on because that's a big one. Right. It's a real big problem on people with HIV aids. For instance, that's a because it reactivates your talk so plasma asus. And we even seating. I've seen in kids sometimes, but the thing. Well, what happens is it's in some countries up to thirty percent of people are actually infected with toxic plasma. And the parasite has the ability to undergo a dormancy state in the body until your immune system gets compromised either because of aids or because if you get some kind of medicine that suppresses your immune system, and then it can reactivate and cause let's call it cerebral, toxic plasmas, quite serious. So most people handle their toxic plasmas, very well. You know, you you you die with it. And don't even know you have it. But in some cases, it gets reactivated right now. There doesn't seem to be a lot of incentive for developing toxic plasma most vaccine, although I'd be very interested to to work on something. Like, why would they be no incentive at such a large scale disease? It's hundreds of millions of people worldwide. Right. That's right. And part of the problems. We have almost no information on the actual number of people who. Have it? And how extensive it is. So we call that disease burden. We don't have good disease burden. Estimates of toxic plasmas trying to get tested. I've had a bunch of cats feral cats. Yeah. You preach them crazy. It was a good chance. You're you're are infected, but I'm sure immune systems intact than you're okay. Now, there is a a related disease that from cats called toxic crisis. And that's a parasitic worm infection. We're finding in the United States among the poor. And that's a weren't. So what happens is if you go into poor neighborhoods. You know, and you see a lot of feral cats dogs and poor neighborhoods. Almost one hundred percent of them have this warm in their intestines and their seating the environment with eggs in their feces and the feces are spread all over the poor neighborhoods. Kids come into contact with them in the worm has the ability to migrate through the brain costs, the rebe real toxic crisis. And I think it's an important cause of developmental delays. It's one of those neglected diseases among in the US about in the book and. No vaccine for that. He was no vaccine for and we knew very little awareness about it. Wow. Yeah. I've never even heard of it until just now. Right. So it's not rare. I mean, in some cases, you know, up to ten percent of certain populations like effort African Americans living in poverty are infected with it. And it's primarily pets or does. Is it rodents as well? Mostly stray dogs, and it's not even pets. It's mostly stray dogs and cats, and and I and this is an example of neglected tropical disease. Here's here's a disease of up to ten percent of African Americans living in poverty in the United States. And almost nobody is studying while right, and it can affect the way your mind functions. Right. It's an and it's been linked now to developmental delays. So, you know, everybody wants to know why, you know, kids living in poverty have developmental delays. And people just assume it's because they live in deprived environments, and that sort of thing, but I think toxic crisis is an important underlying reason for it. And this is an example of the. Elected disease. We I mean, everybody's heard of Ebola. Right. And everyone's worried about he belon- and the truth is he bowl is never gonna come to the United States was never going to be because it's too difficult to transmit unless you have a complete collapse in the health system. We're never going to have your Bulla epidemics in the United States. But here's a disease of ten percent of African Americans living in poverty, and no one's heard of it. And there's no incentive to study it. So that's why I'm trying to raise awareness about these poverty related diseases. And that's why I don't understand. Why people don't talk about that one? That one seems insane right. Yeah. Absolutely. It's a no brainer. Right. And so, but you know, it's very hard to get people to care about disease poverty. I mean, and this is one of the striking things about when I wrote the book was I've had a lot of success getting people to care about neglected tropical diseases in Africa and worked with the US agency for international development to support a package of medicines. That's now begin ministered to over a billion people annually. And that you know is one of my proudest accomplishments is is helping to raise awareness about neglected tropical disease. Like, we've been talking about a good Gorman schistosomiasis in Africa Asia Latin America, but the minute I talk about poverty related diseases in the US the lights go. Why is I don't know? I can't I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. If it's so much success getting people to care about NTD's neglected tropical diseases in in poor developing countries. But you know, there's been no response to this book. I mean, it is and the estimates that I come up when the Booker we have twelve million Americans live in poverty with an elected tropical disease toxic crisis is one of them another one shoguns disease, and the list goes on it's been very hard to get people to cure about the poor in this country. That's very strange to me. And I've always said that about the way we treat other countries we want to send them aid and rebuild these countries. But we don't do anything about these terrible. Communities that have been terrible in this country for decades on decade, right? And so I try to make the point the world has changed. You know, this this old norm of global health developed versus developing it's still exists. But it's going away. We're what we're seeing is a general rise in all all the communists. I mean, some African countries of eight or nine percent economic growth, but it's all leaving behind a bottom segment of society. And so I don't care where you show me poverty, whether it's an Texas or Alabama or Nigeria or Bangladesh, I will show you these poverty related diseases. And you know, I I know what's your name AFC. The congressman from New York has talked a little bit about hookworm in Alabama. So last time I was in Washington dropped off a copy of the book interoffice. But no response yet. She's probably pretty busy too. Yeah. She's doing a lot of other stuff. You had a magic wand. And someone said you could do whatever you want to fix this. What would you do? So I did meet with a couple of people on the hill. And they asked me that question. What's the magic wand? And there's a couple of things one we need to actually look for these diseases because the problem is they're the the disease that caused a very subtle developmental delays. So that if you're you know, a kid who lives in poverty with developmental delays. The pediatrician doesn't even think to do a test for toxic crisis. So that so we need to raise awareness. We need to go into poor communities across the country and actually take a blood test and actually measure for the presence of that disease or that parasite once you find that disease. What would you do that? Well, it depends on the disease in some cases, we have treatments for the treatment for toxic crisis. As a five day course of simple pill of all been dissolved cures it and it cures it. So yeah. So we have you know, we have interventions so one, you know, doing what I call active surveillance looking for these. Seizes the other one is really trying to understand how these diseases are transmitted. What is it about poor neighborhoods? That is facilitating transmission, I think the third problems the diagnostic test themselves because they're very complicated tests. Sometimes, you know, the done at the centers for disease control and prevention our lab at our national school Tropical Medicine does a few of them. But it's not like, you know, when you go for go for blood work in your doctor, and you get a little lab slip from Quest Diagnostics with the, you know, the blood chemistries, the blood counts. There's no box there for toxic crisis and shaggy this. So we need more improve tests point of care diagnostic tests, not just proved test, but just let make them more accessible. Yeah. So they don't have to send it off to the CDC or to our national school of Tropical Medicine is their treatment for taco. There is a treatment for toxic plasmas. With is. It's a para method means self a'drug. But it requires a long treatment course, how long I'd have to look up the number of days. I haven't treated a patient with Doxa plasmas in a while. But and it kills it effectively. He can really, oh, I thought it was something you kept for life. Well, if you don't get treated, right? Okay. So then if you're immune compromise in the comes back, then that that's a problem this. Well. So most people that have it really don't even know they have this, right? Yeah. And actually in most people who have neglected tropical diseases. Don't know they have it. So that the and Texas for instance, we have transmission of a parasitic disease called shock as disease, it's a cause of heart disease. We are members of our faculty were actually able to track down individuals who had donated blood and the Gulf Coast regional blood authority actually found somebody show people positive for Shabbat disease. They were told to go see your primary healthcare provider, and the unfortunately, the primary healthcare providers not educated about these diseases, and they just assume must be a false positive. So, you know, our faculty attract them down able to get them into treatment. And what is it treatment for it? It's a it's a an anti parasitic agent called bids nasal in that kills it. That can kill if you catch it early enough. But sometimes you don't catch early. So it becomes a stemming then. You have then that's why we're trying to develop a therapeutic vaccine for this disease. Oh, but again, it's a therapeutic vaccine for poverty related disease. So it's it's very tough cow, man. So the point is these diseases are widespread among the poor, and we just don't pay attention to them. Yeah. That's it's. And so I think you know, again love to hear your thoughts. I mean, what is it that we just turn our backs on the port in this country. And it's it's disturbing. It's very disturbed a dismissive app and and disproportionately affect people of color as well. Right. Yeah. Because you know, because it's so linked to poverty. Well, also, right slavery. Yeah. I mean, I mean the history of slavery in this country in the history of systemic racism and places where they just literally would not sell homes to people who are African American all these things are connected to the the contribution of maintaining these impoverished communities, and there's been almost no effort whatsoever. Other than the people living in the community trying to do better. Her and raise everybody up, right? There's been no effort whatsoever by the federal government to step in and try to rehabilitate like a large scale approach to rehabilitating places like the ghettos of Houston or Baltimore or control. You know? I thought I knew at poverty living. I was before I moved to Texas in two thousand eleven I was chair microbiology George Washington University. And I thought I thought I knew it poverty looked like I moved down to the Gulf Coast. It's different animal. I mean, the the depth and breadth the poverty in the Gulf Coast, and the southern part of the United States is just extrordinary, and it's been very hard to get people to want to really take it on and really address these these poverty related disease. Do you think what do you think the cause of it is maybe you've you've studied this for quite a while what the cause of the neglect? Yes. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. You know is something about American exceptionalism or something. We just don't want to admit we have poor people. I don't know. You know, I wasn't the first to come up, you know, to raise this issue about poverty when I was in high school or junior high school, I was forced to read a book and at the time I didn't care about. It was called the other America was written by fantastic, social activists, Michael Harrington. Who was I think someone toys, very devout Catholic, actually? So he wrote this book called the other America talks about the hidden poverty off the road and actual number of people who live in extreme poverty hasn't changed since that book was written in the early sixties that book was hoped was what helped Lynn didn't I Kennedy than Lyndon Johnson launched the war on poverty in nineteen sixty four. I dusted off that book, and it's still it's still works today. And that's all right started talking about my book, blue marble health about that book the other America, Michael Harrington. Yeah. The that is a very strange thing are except. Since of these communities, and I mean, I've always said that if you wanna make America a better place the best thing to do. Is not invade other countries or intervene. The best thing to do is try to rebuild these impoverished communities. Yeah. Well, Gandhi Gandhi people way out Gandhi, one set of civilization as judged by the treatment of its minorities. And yes, we're not in by that criteria. We're not doing. So well, you know, the we our country was visited by the United Nations special repertoire poverty into twenty seventeen and his numbers came up with we have nineteen point four million Americans who live in what's called extreme poverty that is it half the US poverty line and roughly around five million Americans living less than two dollars a day the same benchmark used for global poverty everywhere million. Yeah. And and guess what those probably all have neglected tropical diseases five just just like just like those living in extreme poverty in Africa, Nevada million people living on fourteen dollars a week to two dollars a day. That's insane. The university of Michigan center on poverty is also shown that we have forget the number two point seven million families living in less than two dollars, which is probably about the same as the five million number Jesus Christ. Yeah. And again, this is not a topic. That is very popular. I mean, when when you see presidential debates, this this is not something that comes out, nobody talks about it. And again, even for disease. I mean, what are the diseases? We hear about Ebola and diseases like that and sometimes on my frustration. I say, you know, we're deserve imaginary diseases, and yet here we've got widespread diseases of the poor in the US and the lights go you remember when that woman came back from Africa, and she was a nurse and she had been some in some connection contacted with the Bola. She didn't have it. And they wanted to quarantine or. Oh, yeah. And they they stuck around and some cabin on the airport or. Something crazy terrible. But did you think about that? I just thought it was so cruel, and is it just a an ignorance of how this right? How is it transmitted? Well, actually bowl, you know. It turns out the opposite of measles measles. One of them was contagious. Diseases known. It has reproductive number of twelve to eighteen with that means if a single individual gets measles twelve to eighteen others get it because the virus hangs around in the environment. And it's so easily transmissible hangs around the if you touch this table. That's right. That's right or even in the even the atmosphere. So, and that's why you get these really large measles. Outbreaks like, you're seeing in Washington state. And usually those are infants under the age of twelve months old enough to vaccinate the ones that went into possible is sick the. Abolish, just the opposite, Ebola's reproductive number of two or three. So unless you're taking care of dead or dying Ebola patient or someone has recently died because it's only towards the end stage of the disease that you really get large numbers of virus particles in the body. You're not gonna get any Bola. So the reasons being so hard right now to contain a Democratic Republic of Congo is not because it's so highly contagious. It's just that the place is is decimated by the collapse and infrastructure associated with civil war. So even though we have a now any bowl of vaccine, it's hard to vaccinate everybody. And how is it? Transmitted Ebola by contact with fluids of somebody with with people. So it has to get into your tissues, right? What else should we worry about? Freaked me out. Well, the point is a lot of these diseases are solvable. If we just put our mind to its or even aware of it and was one of the things I say in the book is if because these diseases, oh, so widespread among the poor and the twenty countries if we could get the elected or the leaders of those g twenty countries together to twenty summit and say, we're really going to do something about the neglected diseases in our own borders and include the United States, we could get rid of two thirds of the world's poverty related diseases right off the bat while so a lot of it is political will ignorance or lack of awareness and political will. Well, it seems like in this country. Ignorance is a big part of it. Because this is something I've thought about may times, but I didn't know about Chagas to know about a lot of these other describing. Yeah. No, I mean, so we we need to raise awareness about these. That's why I'm so thrilled. So thrilled to come here because I've just amplified the number of people who've heard of this concept of blue marble health is the name that have given a different name from global health to two separate separate it from the two. So, you know, coming on here is so powerful in terms of amplifying that message. So again back to the magic wand what what could be done. I mean is it a funding issue or is it at first before that education issue? Well, I think the there's multiple issues. So I mean, if again, the the drivers we've been talking today about promoting these diseases really tough to do anything about extreme poverty, Warren conflict climate change climate change. Clear that there's things we can do aggressive on checker organizations, but the other things that you can do is build better tools by vitamin better diagnostics, better drugs, better vaccines and unfortunately for these poverty related diseases. There's no Mark incentive for it. So it falls to academics to professors people trying to do this in the nonprofit sector, and we're doing the best we can. But it's not nearly as good as having access to getting the the pharmaceutical companies involved as well, it also seems like it would this would cost an insane amount of money to go through all these poor communities test everyone start distributing these these drugs, and what would pay for all that stuff. Well, you know, some people have asked me a little what would the Affordable Care Act take care of this? And I said, well, we're two steps away from the affordable twos. Two two standard deviate. Not just end. DVD two degrees of separation away from the afforded. Characters. We're not even having recognizing these diseases. Yeah. You got know about it. I I mean, most I what percentage of the population even knows about right? All these parasite created diseases or know that vaccines don't cause autism. Yeah. Well that one is that that's the biggest one. Yeah. I mean, that's a tough one. And again, I don't understand it. I mean, I'm just saying I'm saying vaccines don't cause autism because you're saying, right. You know, and I think this is part of the boat is a lot of part of the problem that we're in this boat bunch of people who are scientifically illiterate like myself. We're discussing these issues who don't really know what they're talking like, I I saw someone talked about tetanus because some boy had tetanus and he was in the hospital for a long time and his his bills hospital bills like a million dollars going. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's an ICU admission. Right. Right. And they were saying, hey, you know, why didn't this kid get a ten shot and? And it it goes back the same thing. Right. That people don't want these vaccines may prevented. And again, I don't blame the parents. I think the parents in some ways are victims themselves are victim of this very aggressive misinformation campaign that's out there. This is a big one though, isn't it? Yeah. Tetanus, and we have a vaccine for that's part of the what's called the DP t that's one of the first vaccines. You get as an infant. There's no excuse for having a tennis case in the United States. Right. And this kid was unvaccinated, right? Yeah. That's my understand. Yeah. I mean is there a cure for tetanus outside of vaccines? Well, I mean, there are supportive measures that you can do. But you know, they require hospitalizations ventilation put in a respirator. It's it's an you could still die. So it's it's awful awful disease. I've seen tetanus working in Central America. And else where you see a case of tetanus. You never forget it with what is tennis tech. Well, the other name is locked Joe where your muscles go into spasm. And and you see. And including the muscles involved in breathing. So you can't even breathe as a result of apparent that freezes the muscles. What what is doing it? What's doing is? It's actually caused by bacteria, the bacteria, Lisa's a toxin called tennis toxin. Sounds like a horrible way to go its terra these are awful diseases. And I think one of the things that the anti vaccine group or lobby is I call it does is they try to be very dismissive of these diseases. They try to deliberately downplay the effects, I mean, you'll see the stuff on the web measles. Build your immune system. You said it yourself. So you didn't read it. Yeah. I just saw. Yeah. So that doesn't make any sense. It's crap. Right. And what are they saying? What is what is the best thing is just a rash and build your immune system? It makes you stronger, it's it's it's something out of from a different planet. I don't know where we do. I think the reason for that becoming popular is because you we do kind of helicopter parent our kids a little bit too much. They should come in contact with a bunch of different things because it does build their immune system. Correct. Well, that's an interesting hypothesis called the hygiene hypothesis right says. You know, if you kids are living in too sterile environment than this can also result in auto, immune disease and things like that. But in ours allergies, and I have mixed feelings about the hypothesis to me, it's not not airtight by any means, you're type, but it's there's there's some sort of a correlation particularly between peanut allergies and keeping peanuts away from children. And that there was a study show those John hates work in one of his books. Talked about how there was a study done in communities where they didn't protect kids from peanut allergies and this much smaller percentage of people developing peanut allergies versus kids that they did. Yeah. This is also one of the things that the vaccine lobbies doing now that are you know, when I write a book like this vaccines, don't cause autism. Now. What you're seeing? Remember, I told you about that wacko all business where they went from 'em MR to Amarah Saul to spacing vaccines too close together to Lumine them. Now, there's some groups that are moving away from autism altogether. And now they're saying well vaccines cause auto immune disease vaccines cause other neurologic deficits. But it's all it's all flimflam. It's often from what is there are there are vaccine courts though, right and vaccine vaccine courts, and they have handed out payments to people who were injured by vaccines. Right. What what does that? So, you know, it was for instance, if you look over a ten year period, I think it is between I haven't looked at the numbers in a while. I think it's between two thousand eight and two thousand fourteen two thousand fifteen over that period of time. There were two point five billion. Doses of vaccine, given two point five billion of which the vaccine courts identified around two hundred that were a list of serious injuries that could be that they have a table of that they could attribute to vaccine. So there were two thousand payouts another two thousand eighty percent. They didn't really think we're tributed to vaccines, but they paid it out anyway because that's how the courts work and then two hundred where they could really say yet looks like this could be related to vaccine. So you divide two hundred two point five billion that's one in ten million or even two thousand by two point five billion. That's one in a million. And these cases what was happening to these people other than the shoulder injury that you were talking about. Yeah. There's a there's a list, and I talk about it in the book. There's actually a table. You can download it on the web of for each vaccine a list of potential injuries. They allow and these potential injuries is it as we were talking about earlier is this just biological variability that some people react differently to different things. I think in some cases, we don't know another cases, you know, with the live virus vaccines, if you have a severe genetic immune deficiency. Maybe it wasn't picked up. Then that then there's that risk. But you know, what's what's the one in a million? What's a one in ten million risk as I said, we have to keep that in perspective because the odds of getting hit by lightning as one in seven hundred thousand and if you believe that number or, you know, what's the risk every time you take your child out on a car and drive around the neighborhood. I'm sure the risk is far higher than one in a million and the real danger. There is actual infectious diseases. Spreading the damage. They could do damage thing. Like they're coming back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Meet measles is is an awful disease causes measles. And Steph Elijah's measles pneumonia. I find that a lot of people that are that are steadfast in their resistance to vaccines. They also believe in a lot of other questionable things, it seems like these things get lumped into these groups of things that they don't trust the government about right, right? Yeah. I think that's I think that's probably true. Yeah. That's which which was she government. Which was which was well, you know, it was interesting. So you know, I said we know we need to hear from the centers for disease control more in the surgeon general now starting to speak out. But you know, the people counter that well part of the problem is people don't trust their government. And I said, well, that's true of some. But I think most people if you know, if we had a, you know, more visible public health force out there, people would listen to it while I think that what you're talking about in terms of these poor neighborhoods in these parasites getting into people system in effecting cognitive development. And what was the other one? Besides Chagas was toxic crisis crisis cognitive development. The fact that there's actual cures for these things to the mean that I estimated at a paper there two point eight million African Americans living in poverty with toxic rise. Wow. This is not a rare disease. Joe this is this is a common disease. But it's so no, but it's occurring among the poor and chronic and debilitating affection. It's not. Attic, it's not ninety bullets. Not healing people is this mostly. And this is what climates as well. It's probably it's more common in the south than in the north is it because they've long longer time to this because the extra the extra and the environment in the worm develops with within the is there any other diseases that are going on that we don't know about. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. There's other there's a brain parasitic infection. Called sister coasts that one is from eggs often from individuals who have tapeworm. Oh, so that's where we're seeing cases of that. There's some of the viruses transmitted by mosquitoes. One of the ones we don't talk about a lot which is very serious infection as West Nile virus infection. That's got very high rates of not only in suffo- litis. But also one of our faculty members Christie Murray showing very high rates of depression and other neurologic. Debilitation for and that's another one we could probably use a vaccine for. But there isn't the Mark incentive to do it West Nile virus does come up though. At least that's discussed in the news and people aware of it. Right. But there's no vaccine there's no vaccine, but there could be what does it there could be holding? It back that's holding. It back is lack of market forces lack of financial incentive for the pharmacy local companies to take it on. So there's an extremely large investment to develop something along those lines. That's right. I mean vaccines are through an investor's perspective a tough sell because you know, there's a possibility. The first of all you need many years of clinical trials, it can sometimes take two decades from the original conception of vaccine to actually going through clinical trials, the hookworm vaccine I've been working on we've been doing it since the nineteen ninety s so we're talking decades long time horizons when you talk to an investor about something with decades long time horizons figure it out, right? The light the lights go out. I mean, the very quickly. So we're gets gross, right? Because this is all we were relying on these private businesses. Right. Invest money to cure a public health issue. That's right. That's right. That seems kinda crazy. Well, so in response to that what happened was after the Ebola fast in two thousand fourteen where we didn't have any bowl of axion in Guinea Liberia. Sierra Leone group of individuals came together. Dav owes the World Economic Forum, and including the Gates Foundation, and they put around they developed this concept, or which an organization called Sepe the coalition for preparedness innovation to incentivize biotechs and pharmaceutical companies to embark on diseases for which of pandemic potential like Ebola like Lassa fever like mayors corona virus infection, and that was great. But the problem is they didn't address these poverty related diseases. So those of us who are working on poverty related diseases are still kind of on the outside looking in just seems like. Having everything managed by private companies that need to they need to have some sort of financial incentive to attack these diseases that seems like a crazy way to deal with health crisis. That's right. That's right. And so what I've recommended as I said the that organization. Sepe is great for what it's doing. But we need another mechanism. What I've proposed is that since these diseases are so common among the poor and the g twenty countries these are the twenty largest economies to put together public sector funds for that purpose public sector funds for investing in developing vaccines and treatments for poverty related diseases. These chronic debilitating diseases, and in fact, you know, we can show that the using working with health the communists, we actually work with a terrific health. Collumnist name is Bruce Lee of all of all he's a professor Johns Hopkins. Yeah. Right. He loves it. And he's he's been able to show that are vaccines are not only cost effective there cost savings meaning that their economically dominant that they'll actually save money. The problems you still doesn't help you with the fact that you still need some. But the return is on public health. You still need somebody to come along and provide them investment. Yes. So, you know, so what's happened is our our technical ability to develop vaccines has out stripped. Our our our financial instruments that we have to do it. So I get a stream of young people in my office wanting to go into global health. I mean, the commitment for this next generation, and no they get a lot of bad press. But my impression is this next generation their commitment, the public services at an all time high, and they say, you know, doctor who has them all in I'm going to go into global health and they're a little bit disappointed. When I tell them get an MBA or get a law degree because where we need the innovation now is in the in in the final. Sector. There's a there must be a business model out there that would work that would figure out how to do this. I just don't have the background to do it. It seems like once the momentum is in the corner of this being handled by the private sector, and that the private sector has to develop these vaccines and these treatments, and they have to do it with some sort of financial incentive. If they don't have a bucket of gold at the end of the rainbow to not going to take a ride. That's right. That's right. So that's crazy. It's crazy. But that's reality. And so what the exciting thing about what I do is developing these vaccines for poverty related diseases. There's no roadmap right now that we're in clinical trials. I don't know what the roadmap is to get to licensure. And getting these vaccines out to the public. The terrifying thing thing keeps me up night is there's no roadmap. Both. Good good. There's a how much does it cost to get a vaccine? I mean in general from develop. Mental period to actual application. Well, the pharmaceutical companies have traditionally said billions, but I don't think that's the case. I think one of the reasons. Be the they're doing that is because they're also recovering. There are in D costs. You know, they're putting money into our area that they that they that they charge in order to, you know, either make a profit, or at least a even so for instance, the cervical cancer vaccine, the HP vaccine that you know, when I last look was four hundred twenty dollars for the three doses. It doesn't take cost four hundred twenty dollars to make that vaccine it it's just that they're recovering there are in D costs, which is which is fair enough. So one of the things that we're proposing to do for our neglected disease vaccines is will de link the RND cost in other words, if we've gotten grants whether it's from the Gates Foundation in the past or or the NIH or European Union or the Dutch government or the Carlos slim foundation, we're not gonna pass those costs on. We'll just you know, that was used for our in D, And we would just caused for the cost of good. So at least we can get. It down to just a couple of dollars a dose a few dollars. Those now for anybody listening to this conversation, and they have additional questions. Where's the best place? You should guide them. Would it be your books? Probably the books because I wrote the books for lay audience as my lay audience is sort of. I mean, somebody with a car university education. But I mean, they're not, you know, it's there they're published by Johns Hopkins University press, so it, and they are kind of their uneven in terms of how weighty they get into the science. But certainly the vaccines not 'cause Rachel's autism. I wrote it with the idea of parents axiom hesitant parents. And also, the pediatricians because the other problem with pediatrician says, you know, they're they're in their office, and parents are greeting the stuff on the internet, and they come in loaded loaded for bear into the pediatrician's office with all these factories, and the pediatricians like, gee, I never heard that before. And and then the pediatrician has made to feel stupid like he's not keeping up with the science. He is. She is. But it's just not keeping up with the misinformation so provide talking points in the epilogue of the book and blue marble health is the best resource for people to understand about diseases of the poor and wealthy countries. Then I have a third book that I wrote a few years ago called forgotten people forgotten diseases that describes the neglected tropical diseases. Well, I really hope that what comes out of this is someone gets motivated to create some sort of a documentary really on both subjects. I mean, I think that we would greatly benefit from some clarity for people that do have concerned about autism. That's in digestible form for good or for bad people like to watch documentaries. Right. I, and I hope you don't get to beat up over this because I know the anti vaccine groups are very passionate, and well, I mean, they have a position they beat me up. Well, they've that's well, they beat me up a lot. I go after you. And they're to call me a shell a show for a lot of things they'll be. On leaving the rounder. Jamie has a t shirt that he sells at young, Jamie dot com. It's round earth. Schill right. Literally, I've been called around earth shell and earth is flat. And there's a lot of those. I don't know if you know, I didn't know that there's a lot. So you get beat up. No matter what if you talking. But so, but I really think it would be it would do a good service. If somebody did put together a documentary because I don't think most people are I think most people are just relying on this fear like that vaccines cause autism. There's also this connection between people that are older. Correct. When when they're older, and they have children, there seems to be more likely there seems to be in that may be related to as you get older your sperm or your egg have some genetic instability and more likely to produce mutations. That's probably the MAC that would go hand in genetic basis of autism. And then the blue marble health book. I mean, you've been saying today about these diseases, and how many of them exist? How many of them are almost unknown untreated undiagnosed and just how many people are unaware. I really hope that someone does something about that too. But in the meantime, people can buy your books are they failed audio as well? Definitely the vaccines. Do not cause Rachel's autism is audio books, and I'm not sure about blue marble health. Okay. But you can get it or not Amazon thanks for being here. Appreciate it's good. See again. Thank you for raising awareness of all this stuff. I really my pleasure. And I appreciate you coming down here in explaining a lot of this stuff for us. It's been a great time. I really enjoyed the opportunity if people want to get a hold you on Twitter. What is your Twitter just Peter hotels? Okay. Thanks her pre cue. Thank you, everyone for tune into the show and thank you to our sponsors. Thank you to perfect Kito, delicious, yummy bars. They're nut butter is fantastic. They have excellent exogenous Kitone supplements to help keep you focused during that afternoon slump. And they're offering listeners this podcast twenty percent off their purchase. If you go to perfect Kito dot com slash Rogan. You can find my favorites and enter the code Rogan at checkout. 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