Michele Madansky's new research into sexual harassment in the tech industry
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You're listening to Rico decode from the vox media podcast network today in the re chair is, Michelle Madonna, who's been on the show before to talk about her research into harassment and discrimination in the tech industry, which was called elephant in the valley and was a long time ago. She now has a new version of that study and we're going to talk about it. What is changed in the past couple of years? And of course, what hasn't Michelle welcome to Recode deco. Thank you for having me. So you say you're just going to talk and tell me things I would love to know what's like let's go. Let's review what you do tell the people what you've done in your long, and storied career. Okay. So I am a independent market research consultant, and I work mainly with digital media companies. My clients have been Pinterest Twitter, check baby center post mates. Uber, etc. My last fulltime job was at Yahoo Yahoo, where I ran market research from two thousand three two thousand seven and I know people didn't like Yahoo. The need at the time. Yup. Yeah. Yeah. At I'm here because I'm co author of the elephant valley, which I'm going to talk about. But I you know, I kind of got into this project in a very sideways manner. Right. So most people that we've heard about who are talking about gender bias in tech had something bad happen to them, right? Ellen Pao was in followers cetera. And the reason I got into this is because I'm a market researcher, right? You got it. You had to put numbers to this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So the, the background is the Ellen Pao trial, two thousand fifteen Recode is to integrate job blogging about this every single day. We did you didn't reporters on it. We have the very excellent lose gains and Nellie bowls also did an amazing job and it was great as they did amazing coverage, the two of them. They did. And like many women I was following this every day. Right. So we're all gonna reading about this, and one day this woman trae, the sallow was subpoenaed, and she tells on shoot guests, so she was testified about being harassed by the same guy. Guy who Ellen pow had been harassed by. And after that happened. This is all according to try. So Trey was a partner Kleiner Perkins. She was harassed by the sky. She did all the right things. She reported to shar the guy was fired. She ended up leaving Kleiner. She now has her own VC firm called defy, but she never talked about publicly until she was subpoenaed. Right. And according to trae after she testified all these women came out of the woodwork and where they did emailing her, and they're all saying, hey, thank you so much for talking about this. I've had similar experiences and Travis RC overwhelm, because she thought she had thought she was all alone in this experience and a felt a little bit guilty because the only reason she talked about this was because she was a peanut. Right. So you know what she said was I had no idea this was such a prevalent issue. I wanna learn more about it. Let's do some market research, and she was walking and talking with her friend Hillary, Michael. Who was my friend? Who I my colleague at Yahoo? And Hillary said, oh, if you wanna do market research, talked to Michelle, so that's how we got involved, and it was really a clever of effort between a number of women, some Stanford affiliation, and we reach out to our network of senior level women in Silicon Valley and surveyed them about their experiences. And of course, the first thing that we did, once we had the results as I said. Hey Keira can we talk about right? Yes. And this was a long time ago. This is before all the metoo. Exactly. Yes. So we the, the podcast was January two thousand sixteen one was released and after that happened, what was interesting is that we had built a website so you can still go to elephant in the valley dot com and some of the stats are there, and there was also a way for women to enter their stories. Right. So after the podcast, we got six hundred women entering their stories on our website and every media outlet wanted to talk to us. So we wrote for time, we wrote for, you know, we were published a Newsweek. The Irish Times vogue, like really kind of go ahead. You had this stat data from all these women telling stories and you're trying to collect statistics to yes. Yes. Yeah. So just stories stories are critical, right? And, and the, the one stat which this is a headline, which I love, which was from the SF ist that sixty percent of women in tech are sexually harassed and more numbers to make you throw up. Great headline for a story, that was, of course, was the thing that got picked up. So after that we got contacted by south by south west and, you know, Trey got the Email and I was like, oh, I'm going to south by south west. Let me I'll talk to them and they just to be on a panel. And the next thing, we know they said, hey, we keynote at south by southwest, and yeah, the tried to get you to, you know, these okay, all right? And you were already booked they don't want you to. So anyways been rules of south by. So the way you know, I'm a hall of Famer I get to say whatever I want about south a special badge and shit. I can probably like damage people want you drink whatever I, I really liked the podcast of Kathy Griffin. Oh, that was great. So. For all the time now because my best. So I let her come to code or do you think that's just a disastrous idea? Why not because it could be a disastrous idea. Oh, she can come in trouble. Okay. Anyway. So, you know, you get to speak, your hall of Famer like for me. I'm a market researcher. It was a big deal for me to be able to keynote at south by southwest and that year. Obama was speaking. So I've a PowerPoint side with my face next to his, which I try to show as many places as possible. Okay. So at south by southwest, we do this panel trays on their Meghan Zahn, there, Laura Wiedeman, power from twenty forty and in the audience is a woman who is from an organization called the three percent movement, which is focused on getting more women in senior creative positions in advertising. And she contact me afterwards and said, oh my God, I would love to replicate this research for the advertising, and you know that before I worked in at Yahoo, I was in advertising for my first half of my career and so much. More egregious behavior there. Sure. And so I was like, yes, let's do this for advertising. So we publish something called elephant on Madison Avenue. You can also download that research someone automotive news. Contacted me and said, I'm a guy who is yeah, so news published it market research. So we now have all this research, kind of comparing the different industries. This is all because of you know, thank you. Well, anyway, you got the word out which is kind of awesome. Where are we now? So I know you want to get to over now I do want to talk about just the comparison to different industries are. Okay. So when I first got the statistics sixty percent of women have been subjected to unwanted sexual vessels like that seems super high is that high is not high. I couldn't find any comparable statistics. The best thing I could find was a Cosmo survey in two thousand fifteen this had one in three women eighteen to thirty four had been sexually harassed whatever they make that up. So I mean it's higher six percents higher. Compared to other industries. Advertising surprised him was lower fifty four percent automotive higher. Sixty five percent market research, Woohoo. I work in a good industry thirty-five percent. So still not great, but much better. There are some other differences advertising women are most likely to have been asked to do lower level, tasks, man. Go ahead. Yeah. The work mom got a thing automotive is obviously in most for sexual advance, you know for sexual harassment. So other industries have also reached out. So tech industry is bad, a lot of other disres- bad are different nuances for each of them. Right. But at least now we have a way to say, okay. This is how we compared to some other industries love to get more interesting. This was an issue. This is a way Vinod Khosla tried to actually Nellie. Did it really great interview with him at the Commonwealth Commonwealth club? And they talked about that. And I think he was like, well, lots of industries are bad, which I thought was lame friggin excuse for bad behavior. But anyway, that was the idea. It's not different than anywhere else, which I don't think is the. The point. But no. But tell me why you wanted to compare them because I think that tunder stand like for women coming into tech is that a is this much worse than if you go into finance. If you go into academia, like you know, we don't want to scare away women from join our industry, and because we are worse than other industries. Right. Right. And the fact is that, you know, there's a lot of room from proven across industries. Right. Right. Okay. So you compare these all. And then we're we're this new. Okay. So it's like okay, it's three years later. All this stuff is happened. Doesn't me too. That's happened. There's a Susan follows up and the Google walkout kind of happened afterwards. Right. But basically, the answer is everyone's getting sexual harassed or bother, or there's some gender bias, this much more visibility into it. Right. And much more. Just open discussion about it. So I said, hey, I want to relaunch his survey three years later. Let's see if anything this change with the same women, same cohort. Right. So we actually had three hundred women in two thousand eighteen two hundred. In two thousand fifteen. So I'm going to share with us stats on some of the stuff that's were some of the same. But I really want to focus on some of the stuff that gives me hope. Okay. Well before we do that, 'cause I wanted to the next action took me about what's goal of this for you to be doing these. And the next thing I want to talk about the, the next section we're talking about the results. But what is the goal of doing studies like this, and continuing to do studies? What do you think the point is? Yes. So for me, I think that the way to make improvements is first of all to have a benchmark to say, like let's make people aware of all these issues, and yes, sexual Harrison's, one thing. But there's the things like not looking women the I there. Yeah. Things like, you know, having the women take the notes in the meetings. There's the, you know out thousand little slice. Yeah. The, you know, the death by thousand cuts. So when I talked to a lot of, you know, men who are pro women promoting women. They had no idea like there's really you know, you know, you know who the bad actors are in, you know that when you see it, right? But you don't know all the. Little slights that happen every day. Yeah. Exactly. So it was interesting. One of the things that I found interesting when we were doing the, the, the coverage of Ellen Pao style, which I thought was a real watershed moment, Silicon Valley, and Susan Fowler was the second. Do you know what I mean? The two of them sort of, I think, of them connected in some way. Is that every woman when we did that coverage? It was really important to do it. That much and was such gifted writers, and such good reporters because we wanted to put a put a light on it. I thought that was critically important. And so, and then people started picking it up because it's an also an interesting story. There's, you know, there's next money and weirdness, you know, every Jack leather jackets, whatever there's a lot of weird going on. There is interesting, and it also gives you a real, you know, you can see it. Other places. People can understand in great characters, etc. So what was fascinating with people reading it, and we were trying to create a narrative around it. So people tune in every day, you know, with that great writing, and that great reporting, what was really interesting. Is that every woman, I ran into had ten stories like that everyone. And they often they were very much. A scale and they love to read it because they were, they were like I see myself, you know what I mean, which was interesting on a scale of those little slights like take notes get the coffee that kind of stuff to very serious sexual harassment. Now, most people were down in this area like down in the slights area, the lack of promotion, the treatment somewhere in the middle, which are just gross remarks, and the others were lesser people, but still significant were over here. And it was really interesting at ten ten to everyone had ten like at least ten examples, I have ten which I can't believe, but I do I could count ten and all the really good men. Why consider I've used that sort of a loose term. But people who I don't consider, you know, schmucks schmucks. There's there's we all know this schmucks, right? Then there's the jerks, but then there's most people didn't know anything about it didn't know didn't you weren't paying attention willfully ignoring their own stupid behavior, sometimes or didn't notice it when it was happening around them, or it was really interesting. Just didn't know. And. It was like, is it because the women don't tell them or the are paying attention or combination of the both, and it was very interesting. I remember thinking that's why we have to keep telling the story. And that's why we keep putting the statistics out just two people get it's they can't look away. I guess they can't look away, which is interesting. So what is the reason you want to call Elena valley, because it's else in the room that nobody everyone pretends to see believe that's still the case. They pretend not to see it now since between then. And now I think there's a lot more visibility. That's interesting. Maybe we should change the name right? There's a kind of a catchy name, but I do think that there's a lot more awareness among, you know, men and women are and calling each other out on that women also are feeling more confident to call out men or to, like support other women in meetings when men are man splitting or taking their ideas as their own. Right. Which are the typical ones, but there's word city is one seven that when we get back on talk more about what the research was that you've found in between the two. Things with Michelle Danske. She is what do you call an independent media? Mark market research continues to work. Yahoo worked all around the valid, lots of companies, and she did research into harassment discrimination in the tech industry several years ago called elephant that valley, and she's back with the new information now. Today's show is brought to you by China here in Silicon Valley. You hear a lot about growth, but scaling up while serving the diverse needs of your workforce can be a challenge trying, one of the amazing sponsors of the code conference this year can help you with your HR needs. Take Brompton bicycle, for example, they make folding bikes that work normally on any street, but also fold up small enough to fit into an overhead bin when Brompton wanted to expand from London to New York. 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Poly-amorous hermetically, sealed domes and Courtney Kardashians dining room chairs, but not necessarily in that order, new episodes of nice, try come out every Thursday subscribed for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast app. We're back with Michelle madams gay. She's the author of elephant in the valley which talks about Harare, was surveys in research. He did into harassment discrimination in the tech industry. So we had before and now we have now so let's talk about now. Don't compare it to before to talk about the results you got. Okay. So I am going to talk about start with the bad and moved to the better. Okay. So we're starting with what's worse percent asked to do lower level tasks went from forty seven percent in two thousand fifteen to sixty one percent in two thousand eighteen is that just because people reporting the more or what do you think, you know, I don't know. I think that there may be more aware of what that could be. They Lord it before. Yes. So two of the quotes, I have here. One colleague, said, oh, men can't multitask, like you when I asked him to take the notes instead of me particulars, and then another woman, I thought this was interesting, not fetch the coffee, but more emotional labor, these days, literally. Smooth this over. So she wasn't talking about, like, you know, taking knows. But more like you deal with that problem employees or you deal with that, you know, problem clients. So I thought that was a different take on her better at that. Yeah, yeah. Not whenever they send me and it gets worse. We've different percents. This does a whole separate conversation is around. I feel like there are women like you and me who can hang with the guys. And we have. No, we've been very successful. And it doesn't matter it really, you know, but we want to make this the place where someone who doesn't have our personality whose quieter who's less leads to interrupt. I agree. Can't be successful. I'm an Olympic Naggar. It works beautifully weird anyway, Aker. Okay. So the second thing this is not what's worse. But one of the questions I ask is, is there anything that you think that we should have asked that we didn't? And we totally forgot to ask about compensation 'cause I study K. And there's been a lot of studies since then. But so sixty percent of the women say that they're less welcome sated than their male peers eighteen percent say it's equal three percent more favorable ninety percent. Don't know. So if you actually re-based to get rid of the people who don't know, three and four women believe that they are less well compensated. And a lot of them actually had. Proof like men, leaving their W twos on the printer Ryan's like that. So, okay. So that's the what's what what's the same two stats are exactly the same. So the sexual harassment sixty percent two thousand fifteen fifty nine percent. Two thousand eighteen and what did you? How did you describe describe? That's a very good question. Because I think that partly explains why they're such while differences. But the way I phrased it was people who are some we use objected to an unwanted sexual advance. So it wasn't like you were, you know, necessarily accosted, but it was an unwanted sexual advance comment or touch, or something like that. It's you have to define it your own way. Right. Okay. So, I think that's another thing about kind of using the same survey instrument across industries because how the way that you phrase it can really vary? How people respond. Sure. So this was any unwanted sexual jazz and could be touching could be not touching could be words. Okay, and did you ask people? Differentiate jeannot. Okay. We had a lot of anecdotes. And I think a lot of them were, you know, advances man, some of them were, you know, more costs, the other thing, which is exactly the same was at two and three felt excluded from key social networking events because of their gender. Right. So how many stories about golf, you know? Yep. How many stories just read some zonal whereabout that strip club in so Ma was, there was something about that the gold Gold Coast, go, like never walked by it all the time. And even know where was okay, I love this one story. This woman said, I was excluded from a whiskey tasting and the guy who organized it said he thought that I needed to be home to pick up my kids, what it she. She doesn't have kids. Clincher. So there's all this, like, okay, it's just an excuse to get together with the guys. I mean trade talks about like these women are skiers. I mean, she's a really good skier, so she can go on these ski trips. But then they're like, oh, well, we only have an Airbnb in this new room for the women there, whatever. But that's. The same. Right. And I think that's a big public, I, I, you know, again, I personally have not seen any had any, you know, active harassment, but I have seen a lot of the women, there's this whole network of the diaspora, and we've all done, you know, well, but all the men who are putting each other on each other's boards. The men are opening yourself now down. Yep. Okay. So that's the he man. No lady. No women club. Yeah. Thank you, exactly. But we'll also the one up in oh that thing I think about rating, it every now and then. It's the worst. Name though. He he my brothers doctor up there. He does Dr wins a lotta old guys. I think anyone. Okay. So now I'm gonna talk about what's better. Okay. Okay. So care. I listened to your podcast a lot. Okay. I don't listen to it at all. You are completely. You're so prolific. It's ridiculous. Eric is sick. Man. I think you're sick of me. Okay. I have to say I agree with you ninety percent of the time. But I'm depressed. I'm like, tech rigged the elections. Over in neighborly in the culture of hate. Divisiveness check? We haven't done anything for the environment. Jack double check, okay, lawn and Bill Gates are trying all over, you know, the, the teachers and the policemen and everything in our schools have to move. I'm talking in London. Breed about that tonight. Okay. Yes. Yeah. So check not to mention the homeless. We're not doing anything about it. So I'm like, do we want to stay here to air pods are great bringing a positive thing about technology? I love my air pods. I am going to say though. So what I want you to say here. Is that why the co author of elephant, the valley is optimistic about the future of women in tech assessment Eric to be this thing? Okay. All right. Okay. All right. All right. And going on which was not. Okay. Razer headlines. We're not gonna let it oriented, cuma her. Right. I'm not going to frame this progress. Not perfection. A few were have heard demeaning comments from men locations. So that has been a little bit better. Yeah. They're smarter. They're not gonna do those, they, they're worried fewer have reported men, making I contact with male peers. But not with what? So they're getting more. I contact and maybe they're like less Asper that have yet. Okay. So that's good. All right. So those were questions I asked two thousand fifteen in this next survey. I also asked some specific questions about, like me, and inclusion, so again, metoo had not happening. Exactly. So this had happened. Right. Has no, no. Susan Hadden had Ellen. Yeah. Yeah. It was Ellen Pao. But it wasn't Susan. Follow wasn't famous memo Susan Allerton. Yeah. Okay. So twenty seven percent agree that Silicon Valley has become a better place for women to succeed. Fifty seven percents said, no change sixteen percent said it's more challenging, but that's a positive this twenty seven percent of saying, hey, is become better before. This is a new question. A new question. It's not a very good number there. This shelter terrible. Not terrible this. There's the positive there's the like, okay. All right. The quota Steelers the amount that said, no, there's no change. Change change. Fable. Yes. There's positive there's a glad that Uber brothers were finally taken down. Yeah, there's more awareness of the problem that people don't know how to fix it. It's easier to speak up when instance arise. Yeah. So there's like there's a wariness. This is like a way this is that the first step. Yeah. The worst is the first step to enlightenment or something like that. Okay. Get to keep hitting them. Ok. Okay. Has the focus on gender biases. Silicon Valley and me been helpful or harmful to the industry. Fifty eight percent helpful helpful. Yes. Okay. That's a small number though. I think it should be here for some chippy, like a hundred thirty five percents. So no difference. Okay. All right. Seventy seven percent. Harmful for the so there's there's like you know what I've heard like now. Men are afraid to go have lunch with women, blah, blah, blah. Like that's not someone said that to me the other day. Now, I'm afraid, I'm like, just don't touch their boob and it should time like what I'm like you're an idiot, but that's a positive number that it has been helpful. Okay. Positively, yes Paul, how's the tippety? Not pollyanna. But I really like I six ten have said that their companies launched a diversity inclusion program, which is neither here. Everyone's doing that yet. But among those half of said that the programs have actually helped the atmosphere of women in our programs not these ridiculous. Like let's hire unusually looking people to, like, do our diversity programs. You don't you know they they, they don't give them teeth. They don't give them true teeth to really change things. Right. So it's not just it's not just feel like they're they're helpful. Yes. Okay. All right. So that's the good. Is there anything companies that are better than others? Well, I you know, I don't know. I was, you know. One of the like good. Guy. I know I was like you, you do have like occasional like, oh, I'm so uplifted by listening to the out of your. Yeah. Okay. So he's a good guy. So thus the quantitative rations, but there's other qualitative reasons that I am personally optimistic. Okay. So we talked about the awareness in Silicon Valley, and there is this genuine surprise about the, you know, for men, not understanding what she's identified also. The second reason is the next generation of men. Okay. So from the research I looked at the data of sexual harassment of women under forty versus over forty. Okay. And those under forty only fifty three percent only only fifty three percent have had an unwanted sexual advance and those of us over forty sixty five percent. Yeah. Well, the same is true in the advertising community. All right. And we can be cynical, and we can say the reason that happened is the more conferences, you go to and the more you travel internationally. There's more chances. Schmuck. Write more, you can say you know what this younger generation of men are more aware. And you know just better actors. Yeah. And that's the narrative that these more online porn. But anyway, I'm telling you, I think that is an improvement. It is. It's still fifty. That's still too many. I mean too many. But it's the fact that, that young hopefully that as it continues. Right. So is it that the younger men are not sexual acts as much or the older men of stop sexually harassing younger women like that. That hasn't we need. We need more sample. We need other stuff to get at that, but it's kind of. Creepy old Duterte creepy young dude, like what which which creepy was which level of creepy wasn't. And there's of course, scrapes across the well, it's also it is a level where I mean, look, this different Biden. I mean, you know, even though he is seems functionally unable to say I'm sorry to anybody. It's a really the awareness of what he's doing. I think I don't think he'll be grabbing anybody again ever again in his life like we're touching them without their permission. Al Franken also. Yeah. I think it's just I think so. Well, the awareness is massive now how much people should pay for. That is a good question. Right. You know what I mean? That's really probably they won't pay that much whatever you think of it, there, probably won't like people are going to just give it a by because it's not like Harvey Weinstein. Lamar behavior. No gradations. And right. I mean it's hard to do that. I have had several people recently come up to me and saying, shouldn't we just give everyone a by now? Who isn't that bad? I'm like. I don't believe I said, I don't know. I said, no, let's not. It was interesting. It was an interesting question, but you see that more and more, right? So where do we go from here? Okay. Okay. Okay. Gen Z. Great Louis, Louis my son, your son. I my agency sons, right. And Louis was awesome. On your podcast. Yeah he was he was eloquent. He was. You know, he s he really, really good job. And I look, so my two sons. My older son is in college his first semester of college. He went to Greece and his roommate was transgender, and it was like you didn't even think that it was like, oh, by the way, my room is transgender. My younger son has roomed with transgender students and you know, youth group retreats, but I think for this generation, they're just have different attitudes towards humans. Well, it depends on what your race. I mean the closer. With the closer. You know, my, my kid has been raised in a very liberal environment, and I think, but I do think I actually think it's more than that, because I have another son who's a little more conservative. I would say, but I think they're both like what the hell is that a problem for, you know, you can get that? And I think a lot more kids than you think of from all areas of the country like that. They're not. There was actually a really interesting evangelical statistic that the older people are still obsessed with the gay thing. And the people were like let's, let's just move on. Let's let p footage get married and leave them alone. It's nice that he's religious and Mary, and so it's the statistics are really quite glaring actually, in terms of the younger says old, which is fascinating. So, yeah, I think yeah definitely jen's e is different group of people, including around issues around women. And I don't think he feels. My younger son's, too. Young to think about this. I think he feels burdened by it. Like he doesn't think, oh, what a bummer. I can't be an asshole. I just think that's the way they think. Right. You know, like I don't have to. He doesn't feel like he has to change because he never behave like that, if that makes sense. Right. So lot of culture lot of the men are like a victims. I can't do that anymore like they feel bad about. You know you get that thing. But jen's e- people don't they just don't. It is the most, you know, it's the most multicultural immigration. Yeah. I think the most open minded odd percent. I mean, and also, they also find it offensive. They find it gross. I think which is interesting. Although I have to say my son just related something to me about someone in his class, that was kind of gross, but he, but he also was like put a stop to it like the internet. I mean like they feel responsibility. Now, of course, I, I have like drilled into them that it's his responsibility to see something do something. But it's really it is an interesting. I it should be interesting to see the next statistics. You get right? Okay. So another another trend which I'm optimistic about is the rise of breadwinner moms now. So Liz, Monday, do yes, she wrote a book called intersex journalism school with her, okay? Super interesting. But, you know, fifty percent of college graduates now are female and the United States and globally is over fifty percent that was a stats. And when you go to visit collar. Ages, especially if you go, this small liberal arts schools, all of them are seventy percent female right? So it's. At yahoo. There were a lot of women like myself, where the breadwinner moms? But that mean bread with him. I'm always, so according to pew. Yeah. Okay. Thank you for asking for a few. The women just has to earn a dollar more than the man. Okay. Like, so in my case Travis was a stay at home dad for a decade when I moved here and there were not. I mean, he could not find other men in Menlo Park who were stay at home dads. Right. So it's I think just the, the overall acceptance of women as breadwinner moms as men in kind of different roles is going to change the narrative around the workplace and the homeplace Dari, we're gonna get back in a second with Michelle Danske. She is the author of the studies elephant in the valley about gender Tacoma, nation and sexual harassment and she's come back with some new stats. Talk about that a little more. And then what we can do to make the numbers better going forward. Hi. This is Peter Cosco. I'm the host of Recode media. He's an awesome podcast that I make about media want to tell you about a specific episode. I think you will listening to he's with Jimmy Petar oath president ESPN, one of the most powerful programming networks on TV also one that's under a lot of stress. He's down the fifteen months we talked about what he's doing to sort of reshape that thing and, or keep it competitive all other sports networks and the internet in general. It's a good conversation. You can listen to it for free. Jimmy Petar was on the Recode media podcast with me, Peter Kafka on apple podcasts. Four wherever you are listening to this message right now. We're here with Michelle, McGann. Ski she is a researcher. And she did a study that I did a podcast with her, and Trey best, the Selo many years ago called elephant the valley, it was about how women in tech looked at sexual harassment and gender discrimination. She has since done a lot of research and other industries, like advertising and automotive and she's back with new tech information. She's been relating lot of it. And one of the things we just talked about was breadwinner moms. And how does that affect younger people? Is that they're less? What well I think that there's this, you know, as there are more women who are getting undergraduate degrees, so we're getting graduate degrees. They're going to be more poised to be the breadwinners in their families. Right. So there's going to be this natural evolution where we need to navigate. They need to navigate just as I did the work environment. Like, you know, if you're the breadwinner, you need to be able to work in whatever environment whether that's tech or -education is cetera. And so the workplace is going to. Have to adjust to that. And as well as the, you know, our home lives. So men, taking more responsibility in the home. You know it cetera. So I think that just that kind of that discussion around rolls and there was an article in the New York Times, I just read was about to a couple that are lawyers and talking about how the women tend to know she. Yeah. She went to twenty hours a week and the husband works, sixty hours a week. And he makes five times as much as her right? But that that's not the, you know, the narrative is shifting so that, you know, women can do that in men can take the lower. The lesbians already figured this one. Listen, that's been should raise all men that this might look right? Well, off I'm doing I'm doing research around, breadwinner moms, man, if there's any listeners who are prevalent amongst want to talk to me. I'm hoping to write a book about it. But I think, yeah, I mean the, the same sex couples have figured it out. The were. Just getting there and, you know, it's low, but he, but we have to because there's just more and more women who are, are poised. I mean I have a PHD in business. My husband has a floppy undergraduate degree, and that's that's. You know you thinking the good Travis. So, so let's talk about what how you changed, right? Because the numbers still remain glaringly obvious that white men ruled the roost continually every time they even when those reports come out, I'm like, oh, once again, it just doesn't move. The needle doesn't move, it seems like there's no efforts as much as they say, there's difference it feels like maybe it's priority. Number fifteen just recently, one of the big CEO's called me. They were adding someone to the staff, and it was very had been a very male dominated staff. And I was like, is it a woman, and he goes, no one, I was hanging up before I was like, I don't want to hear about it. I just okay. I'm not writing about I'm not writing about it. I just I'm tired of it. It's and I wasn't trying to like push numbers on him. But it was like, really, you can't find it was a role where the plenty of women candidates. That's why was irritated with them. So how do you change the numbers because I think that's part of it. Right. Yes. So power and being in power. So the last reason that I'm optimistic is and, and I think this is one of the ways that you change the narrative is more women supporting. Other women. So you think about, like one of the things in reading the Ellen Pao book, which, I finally read, what was said to me, was that there was a number of partners or junior partners, or whatever they were, but they weren't really supporting each other. And I think that for a lot of places whereas care what we seem scared, but go ahead. Yeah. I mean, I think maybe the culture wasn't. Right. But, you know this eaten beaten culture over there. Yeah. So, you know. So maybe that's the culture. But I think that in a lot of places where there are only very few women on the top, you don't want to be seen as like I'm having lunch with the other woman, right? Like you have to be one of the guys and what I've seen over the past few years is all these women supporting each other more. So you see that through, you know, this informal groups like the Yahoo diaspora women's group that I'm part of that we have lady groups. Yeah. Yeah. We all get. I mean it's just like we all just get together and you know, kind of support each other in whatever is needed. You see people like alien Lea and Tina Sharkey like always pumping each other up on social media. You know, and you do that also. Yeah. To your credit, but I think that we're seeing more of that. And the more, you know, board lists etcetera, when I don't know, when the Burtless started, but it's the idea that you can create these things I know part of it is great. Although you do get pushback from men, like why do you have women's only groups? I'm like, really he needs to stop. Well, they can they can be welcome to jail. Thank you can give us where. Obviously, you know, Sheryl Sandberg did this years ago. It's been written about like her women's groups, were really interesting. That was very early like a women's only dinners where she brought in big games and stuff like that never gonna fight. Oh, sorry. They were. But, but the, the concept of it is that is women, supporting women, but I'm talking about actual change of people getting into high ranking positions. How does that make that make a difference from your perspective? We're not at all. Maybe not. Women atop companies that are problems. I think that it would definitely make a difference. How do we get there? You know, I don't know. I was it frito Kapoor? Yes. That was free to. Yeah. Teddy sleeper. Yeah. And the whole discussion around board members mean responsible for the company's and making that imperative I think is really important. So, you know, calling, you know, companies out and have you have you more diverse sports, certainly will help right if you ever more diverse board than it would help. Get more diversity in the C suite. And that will help with the culture women that have to do the heavy lifting where people of color that have to be the ones doing. That'd be lifting on this weird way. You'd think that most people would find this a good idea or at least normal, I do not something not seen as something that's like, oh, I'm going to have to be PC here. It's just a good thing. I mean, what I mean why wouldn't they behave like this? Yeah. No, I mean, I think the onus isn't everybody. I don't know why the onus is never on to manage, just isn't as much. It's usually you've gotta get three women in there. And they have to push for women. I think women are tired of that. I think like having to do that. But, you know whatever you. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, the men should be responsible for this. So, so, so you're talking about positive things. What are you worried about what are you worried about? There's been a little bit of a backlash to the concept. So I could metoo and things like that. I'm more fatigue is more than backlash. No. I mean, I think those conversations of like the men not going to have lunch with the women. I'm not as worried about that. I think that people will get over that and. And for me, I think the important thing is that we really understand where we are a point in time and try to make changes based on that. So what I would love to see is first of all, like a larger scale study, where we can not only analyze this by, you know, women, but by LGBT by people of color by ageism. I mean, there's all this kind of intersection, I don't like that. We're gonna look like co variants, which are also impacting people in earnest Ray so being able to kind of say, like we can't say we have an ageism problem unless we actually measure that, right? You know, important to these people. Right. Right. So you need to do that. I would love to see companies taking the onus and doing that themselves insane. Hey, I'm gonna measure where we are at this point in time. And then make objectives around shifting some of this not just around like the numbers, but how people are feeling in terms of being included. It also has to do with HR. They're supposed to that's supposed to, to me. With HR is an and instead it turns out to be a defender of the company versus. Trying to change agent too often at a lot of these companies it becomes a logistical thing. They become managing problems versus managing change or pushing inch. Yeah. No, I think a lot of the women said, especially on the sexual harassment. They did not report, you know, these incidents because it felt HR we're not be supporting them. No. And those who did a lot of times had bad experience. I mean I mean, the, the Susan follow thing is ridiculous. Right. But common. Right. I don't think it's now figure look they've changed. I mean you know, you know, he's still in those swings. But are you. I mean I I'm cautiously optimistic about the future of Uber with. Yeah, I guess I don't think it's a competent to say they're not quite as you know, awful, like they're not quite as you know, grabby and mean to women. I just, I don't know if that's it's sort of like a, it's a low bar to me. It's over I find it you know, it reminds me of when I was coming out and my mom's like look I was nice to you for being game. Like that's not. He don't get you know, get a star for being for being a decent person. Right. So I think that's one of the parts is that I still I still get the feeling that the priority is not on that. And it's just it's an irritant versus a positive. That's my sense. But maybe I'm wrong. Well, I have to look at the free to Kapoor's. She apparently we'll, we'll see how her fund is doing but yeah, yeah. But then you don't even know what the how the results are skewed because of your ability to access people. Right. And so some people have more access than others. You know, I think that's where the real problem is the access and the ability to just the ability to get in the room to get in the room, not the elephant in the room to get in the room, even if the elephants there. Right. So I think that there are more stories coming out. Also, like I think I'm on the board of an organization called wool grammar, which is woke Graham. Oh, grammar. I was to Facebook, engineers side. I love it anyway. So it's all about just telling stories of women in stem. Right. Right. And I think the more that we tell those stories about, you know, the positive things that women are doing that women. Who did the black hole? Yeah. Oh my God. Here's all tell you what bothers me about that. They kept saying woman, and I was like she's a programmer, my friend. She's not a woman programmer. Like I had someone the other day like you're the best woman draws I'm like, I'm a best journalists like sorry like you know what I mean? Like it was a really interesting. And it's not that he didn't want to celebrate being woman. It's that that's wasn't the point of my work or her work, or anyone's work know that it is my talk. But it is the fact that she was clearly responsible. Yes. And she was being featured as the behind the flack the person behind the black hole. Yeah. And and she was adorable. She's smart and everything else. So talk like finless finish up talking about what needs to happen next at these companies for, if you will go in with this numbers, what do you say to the companies you may be advising? So give me five things. They have to do so everyone is understand. What's happening your company, right? Like you need to understand where these challenges are. And, and what they are is, is it, you know, the. Egregious stuff. Is it though, you know, death by a thousand cuts and what are they in where in which areas of the company and which segments of your work, you're working population, so that we can fix that number two, you know, boards need to be responsible that needs to be more diversity on boards, there needs to be more diversity in the C suite? And, you know, I think there's the make your C suite like your consumer base. Right. That's just a good motto to have excellent motto to have. And, you know, again, I am not I'm not an HR. I'm not in diversity inclusion. I'm just trying to shed a light on the stories. And I think that shedding the light and making people aware and share the data like share the data of within your own company, share the data within the industry, so you can understand, but you're not gonna have any change unless you understand where we are at this point in time. What about going to your positively, because I'm not a positive person. I'm I'm op. Domestic pessimist. I don't know. What are you, are you pessimistic optimist? I'm not go. I'm thinking of optimistic pessimist optimist. That's what I here's what it's also telling you about stories that are good too. That is one thing that I do gets lost in this, because everyone feels badly all the time and they should. But some like I am always like WalMart. Berg changed my career like in talk about, like good outcomes when they were like you can blame him or give him kudos for me, but you have to like is a through line between him you know, to my career to him. And so, I think a lot of the those kind of things you have to talk about which people don't think that's a good point, which is men mentoring women, and I just was on a panel with Dave Smith who wrote a book, when I'm to forget the name of it, but it was all around men, mentoring women and how important it was and how to, you know, be a better mentor. Right. And I think that's a really important thing that kind of gets lost. Because for all those kind of schmucky guys, there's another won't Mossberg out there who. Is supporting and advocating for, and we need to be celebrating that and not making people feel afraid to go out to lunch with the next hot CARA Swisher because. Interesting. A hot journal, how hot is in, like, yeah, I, I, I, I get it pro s but that's how I mispronounce words from now on what do you think? I do all the time. The Nick instead of Malegaon bothers people anyway. Michelle, you have any final words come back with another study in three better now. Better number. Yes. Okay. I will wait back to three years. Okay. And when I have my research on breadwinner moms and talk about how we can create a better society. With more breadwinner moms fantastic. It's a great idea until then the lesbians. We'll have to run everything. It was great talking to you. Thanks for coming back on the show. And thanks to you all for listening. You can find more episodes of Rico decode on apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. And please tell a friend about this show you can follow me on Twitter at Carrow Swisher. Michelle working people find you online Shumba Danske dot com. And on Twitter at Mitcham de mission. Be okay. So say hash de mission de okay now that you're done with this go check out our other podcasts, Recode media, and pivot, you can find those shows wherever you found this one. Thanks for listening to this episode of Rico, decode, thanks to our editor, Joe Robbie and our producer, Eric Johnson. I'll be back here on Monday. Tune in then. Hey Rico decode listeners, there's another vox podcast. I think you should check out. It's felt future perfect. And it's hosted by Dylan. Matthews Dylan reports on philanthropy. So the podcast overall looks at how people try to do good. But this season, they're focusing on all the ways philanthropy, clashes with democracy, for example. They cover a foundation that use philanthropic money to help reshape our court system and help, put Neal Gorsuch and Brett, Kevin on the supreme court, but they also cover zombie donors giving from beyond the grave and eccentric donors who are very afraid of killer robots in the first episode. 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