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Sequoia Capital Partner Roelof Botha and Ethos Life Co-founder Peter Colis

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Welcome to techno vacation. Conversation with people who are shaping the technology landscape. I'm peter. Hi, president of meta strategy advisor technology executives sports columnist book, author and your host each episode of technician features insights from top executives and thought leaders at the intersection of business, technology and innovation. If you like what you hear? We'd be grateful that you give us a rating on itunes or through whatever other source you use for podcasts complete subscribe. So you don't miss a thing. Thank you. My guess this week our rule of Goethe a partner at sequoia and Peter colas the co founder and chief executive officer of those life. He's are two separate conversations on the future of insurance technology. Among other topics rule is an investor in the space in Peter's company is an online life insurance startup focused on disrupting the life insurance industry by providing friction lists and more forcible life insurance package in this interview rule off talks about what has made insurance tech and attractive segment to invest in. We also talk about his take on our official intelligence and voice technology. Jeez. Why he was determined to immigrate to the United States and a variety of other topics with Peter he notes that most life insurance companies are a hundred and fifty years old if not older he'd knowledge is that that history provides advantages of capital and customer bases, for instance. But his company ethos is relying on its speed of execution and digital advantage. We also discuss how ethos is using behavioral science and product testing for ease of use as well as variety of other topics rule off has a long track record of success as his investment portfolio consists of companies such as YouTube twenty three and me and square and prior to sequoia roof worked at pay pow after graduating from Stanford business school prior to founding ethos, Peter was the co founder of avid corporation. Enjoy this interview, we'll tie the welcome. It's great to speak with you today. It's a pleasure to meet you and shit you taking time with me. Thank you for having me. A it's a it's a pleasure as I say, I thought we would begin with your own sort of investment philosophy NO from our earlier conversation, and from some research things that I read about you that you you don't consider any single swim lane to your own you, you have a diverse diet a diverse area that you cover in terms of companies topics that you investigated interest. You these include a present past companies that you've invested in Andrew on the board of including twenty three knee bird, Evernote unity technologies, mongo, DB's, swear, YouTube, etc. Just that the list alone shows quite a bit of diversity in the in the way in which you think in invest, and I wonder I'm so without sort of a a focus on BB versus be to see a single insurance. Excuse me in a single AB. Industry, for example. How do you think about the investments that you make how do you think about what areas to meander into to investigates you to think about what what we're there are is good opportunity for you. And for your company as an investor. I'd say it's a combination of top down to Matic thinking and trying to sing about how the world might look differently five or ten years from now and then bottoms up meeting with founders and having the meticulous. They story is nothing like sitting with an entrepreneur and having them explain why came up with idea. What was that? You Rica moment, what frustrated them what was the problem that they confronted the they wanted to go soul. And then having them articulate why they think they came up with the distinctive added proposition to solve that particular problem. And so it's a combination of those two things sometimes is a theme that I think is interesting, and you don't find the team necessarily that you think can take advantage of that. And part of what I love about this business as I will come to meeting every day and somebody surprises me with an insights on the an industry or a problem that I was just list unaware of and it's fabulous dive and delve into that problem with them and have them. Explain why it's an interesting problem space. So I know also as your education background is as an actuary relief. And I I know you have said that that has given you a perspective to think well into the future from an investment perspective. Can you talk a bit about how you leverage that longer view in the way in which you reflect upon investments? So the my professors have this when when I was a fishy actual science student. He said actuaries are trained to think twenty five years into the future and accountants trying to think one year in rears. Funny at the time, and the reason is relevant factories is if a life insurance policy today, you may need to pay out on somebody's ultimate this decades from now, and you need to think very carefully about how you price that product. What are the premiums charging for the life risks? How do you model the expense structure of the insurance company over that time period, HUD, you plan to invest the premiums until you need to pay the claim? So just it requires this very studious thinking about housing's compound in change into the future. And lot of what's interesting in technology investment area is the fact that things compound in the famous murders Lowell just this notion that things change fall more quickly than you can into sedate. My bet is that if I told most people ten years ago, including myself that they'd be called driving itself the way that we now see in the roads by many different providers. I would probably not a believed you I would have thought its many decades still into the future. And so it's part of the training is thinking about how things compounded ways that will surprise you. The human brain didn't evolve for compound interest to be natural and intuitive for us. Avenue. Look at a company we look at the way the world works today. And you listen to a companies that take elation of how things might be different. You know, listen to square initially. And it turns out that there's still twenty million merchants in America that don't accept credit coffins in the twenty first century. So the strikes you as hub that's kind of odd. Con imagine the future should be like that forever. And so can this company actually help bring that future forward? I mean, that's a lot of what else founders do that have vision for tomorrow and the helped bring the future four, and that's part of the fun of being this job. I another discipline that that hopes to look to the future, and and think about Riskin spreading that around in an appropriate way by by attracting, a great number of of of customers in and spreading risk throughout the the policies that they dictate is the insurance industry industry, you've done some investigation in as well as one in which you've made investments in and a wonder if you can talk a little bit about what attracted you to to that space, and specifically to tune investment that you've made those sure said the things interesting in the investment business. We often joke the industry you came from before you became an invasive is typically the one that you avoid often become an investor sometimes because you know, too much about the industry sometimes because you just curious about other new era's. And so I trained as an actually and I would in life insurance companies we fly ended up coming to the United States. And so. I hadn't thought of it as a great investment area for us necessarily the internet had arrived in disrupted distribution for many different businesses. But twenty years into the intimate despite broadband despite mobile devices way insurance is still launch a sold. The wait was sold. Fifty years ago is through in person agents that accounts, I think of a ninety nine percent of life insurance policies sold in the United States, and they're of a ten minute of these policies sold every year. And so it wasn't intuitive. August me that that industry was ready for disruption that I make Peter Linke, you know, to the point I made earlier in the conversation about needing team and sort of seeing bottoms up to the chemical the great idea at a Mideast founders who just had a fresh take on the opportunity a distinctive approach going about solving solving this distribution conundrum way. You know, young people today probably wanna buy an insurance policy in five minutes on the mobile device with control want to be sold policy bun agent. They may not trust. And the fact that they've just thought about differently from the web hooded expressed by any other founding team that really got us excited wanted us at made us when to partner within. At the seed stage, actually, so we've been invested in the company for quite a while. And can you talk a little bit about what it is? You've you've talked about this just the way in which consumers is rising the younger generation as they get in get to the age words appropriate to contemplate life insurance that to some extent the solution. They have developed fits more into the way in which that demographic is comfortable that they're they prefer not to to purchase purchase from somebody that they don't trust. They prefer not having a process that takes weeks in doctor's visits in blood tests, and all these sorts of things can you talk a bit about as you as you peel back the onion on his opportunity as you as you learned more about the founding team in their vision for this. What are some of the things that can tell you about it? So what what I'd seen for most of the businesses was an attempt to bring online distribution to life insurance without changing anything else in the province. In. If you think about the early days of it was I think somewhat similar it was it wasn't really innovating fundamentally with what you could do online distribution. And so if I'm trying to mock it to you online, but useless have to fill out, you know, pins and tinge of pages of information, you still need to have somebody come to a home. We office to do blood work and sort of a full physical exam. That's just so much friction and the benefit of on distribution. Just isn't all that info honest, and I've I've twice being through that process of getting life insurance in the US and having to sit aside two hours in the morning. The stress of all these tastes in it so cumbersome time, consuming, and the reason this team was different as they said to solve this problem. We have to do a lot of hard work that isn't just about trying to mock it something online, it's actually fundamentally changing the product and digging into the technology doing partnership with the security partnership with a reinsurer so that we can reach very deeply into the technology stack. So we could change the way the product fundamental works. And this is where the pairing of Peter Linke was so interesting because in Peterhead background in the insurance business Linke was technical co founder, and he's the CTO of the company writes a lot of the software runs the engineering team. It's it's not just a business innovation. It's also technical innovation of reimagining that product 'cause you can't get a five minute application process on the mobile device without the need for blood work. If you haven't done that product integration into the reinsurance. And that is fundamentally the hardware that were willing to do which I think opens up an ability to deliver a much lower cost insurance solution and a seamless online experience. And by the way, that also opens up online distribution that has been untapped. But until now if you think about that model where people had to buy insurance policy through an agent meeting them in person that precludes all these wonderful online, distribution ideas. She mentioned that I'm in the twenty three and me while I'm not sure this is going to happen. But if three new wanted to offer life insurance as a as a additional benefit to some of a subscribers or two tomorrow to them that they should get life insurance. They can't do that with any of the existing providers, but ethos enables them to do that. So it opens up really interesting new pockets of distribution potential, very interesting and part of the reason for traditional insurance companies to go through the battery of tat. Tests is to assess the risk that they are taking with each policy that they're writing and by reducing this on the face of it. It would seem as though the companies actually taking on potentially more risk. How does it get around? You know, having so much data to be able to have a clearer picture at least from their perspective as to the sort of the risk that they're assuming without the battery of tests that the national of life insurance organizations undertake. It's a very good question. This is great thing in in the insurance industry, cooled adverse selection insurance do know underwriting in you itunes, and they do a tremendous amount of underwriting for people to take out life insurance. And despite that in new Tim's life expectancy is better than insured lives because of adverse selection, it's a really interesting insight. So part of what you have to understand is with the traditional model because it sold for agents agents and incentives to get commissions. It's insurance companies have battling sort of fundamental adverse selection process, not just from the people who seeking life insurance. But also from the agent NATO trying to push policies through often helping out the form for the proposed insured because they know what underwriting policies are though, they'll do what they can to make sure that this person's always he gets issued. And so the motive just you know, attributes of the existing distribution system that leads to adverse selection challenges that on just sold by doing the physicians exam. So that's one challenge. I just put out there that it's not as though it's it's not that easy in the existing distribution channel. Then the ethos has with its own distribution is considered very creatively about way to markets to potential users, and they can be very seldom stake than their funnel of how to identify good risks to take. So getting back to that Twenty-three example from earlier if you the sort of person who signs up for twenty three me, probably interested in you health in your wellness. You're interested in your family, as you know, in general people who more connected to the families have been life expectancy than people that are loners. So my guess is on average twenty three me's customer base is actually a bit of pool of I don't know that for sure, but it's a fake ace. But it gives you sort of insight that ethos can tap the pools of users online with very targeted advertising or targeted of distribution channels. It can end up with very good risk profiles full the the lives that they won't underwrite. And then I will we'll say that the company has done a really good job of developing online. In writing a mechanism that have good proxies for risk short of having to do. An actual blood. Butterball one of the interesting insights, we had PayPal was you could prevent shrinkage Joe stole by building brick wall in front of your front door. But didn't you also have no sales. And there's this is really interesting balance because we had this challenge of PayPal. In many of the other financial services companies we woke with of fraud, and how much money you lose to fraud and attends on that if you make it very hard for all users. You make it a little bit harder for the Ford says the forces we'll get through anyway. But now you've disproportionately tuned away good users. And so while you may have less fraud than if you'd had a list stringent process, the mix of different actually have a high of fraud right in this analogy for me. He was insurance way ethos makes it easy. Instead, it's not just the people that disparate in probably bad risks who make its application process. There are a lot of good risks make it through and that. That's the balance that you need to strike between good risk combat risk. Interesting. You mentioned that sequoia tends to think about investments in terms of themes or landscapes, and that you personally, try to think about trends or technology areas to investigate what what are some other ones that you're beginning to contemplates. A here is we we sit here at the late late stages of two thousand eighteen. Well, that's a big question. I don't need to answer. But maybe a couple of things. Have you about it today? Sure. It's think voice interfaces. I know people have written about this a lot of the loss euro two with the soda devices that are making it into our households these days with who will home in Alexa, and Apple's product the pod, we think visit a lot of runway voice note, any consumer applications, but also in the enterprise security feels like an evergreen fem-. Sort of the proverbial arms race of bad guys. Trying to find new ways of taking advantage of us all the way up to nation states and their attempts to steal IPO break into systems privacy is obviously a huge semantic shifts that we've seen over the last twelve months with what's happened with Facebook and Google cetera until we're paying attention to that. I wonder whether it leads to sit of new consumer services that a different, you know, maybe their new social networks are going to start up their luckless open than the ones we've become accustomed to be done. No. But TIMMY, this shift taking place in privacy that I think is interesting to pay attention to the rise of machine learning in official intelligence. I think is a big one twist we have on that as we like to think about all bent intelligence the way in which machines in people work together to be more productive rather than just machines replacing humans. Gary Kasparov, the former chess champion talks about that a lot in how the rival of machines chest programs have actually helped elevate the game of chess players because it's man plus machine. Would you take a theme like that rule off where there are implications today for companies to leverage, but there's also so much that is years advance? You think about the difference between artificial general intelligence, for example, versus the the bike by comparison more rudimentary AI that's being that's in process. Now, the the the we're already feeling the impact of how do you? How do you think about those those that the difference between the two as an investor who's looking to make a return in the relatively sort of near to medium term? I imagine you're looking for companies that that have practical commercial applications of of what they are doing. But to what extent are you also looking for those who are, you know, have a bigger vision that that can connect itself sort of to the the the promise to come that may be sort of decades in the making. It's a tough one for us because it's. Foam will patient than I think most people might appreciate foot. It's with. It's been interesting for us. We have some of companies go public, and they're the so-called long-term buyers in the public market who buy up, yo they buy shares off to the IPO in attends out that oftentimes those people are sailors of the company stock even before we've distributed, and obviously we've been shareholder of the company many years prior to that. So my guess is full companies have hours ago public average time it we are invested in the company is probably eight to twelve years. So it fall more patient than I think most people may appreciate. That said we done think businesses funding research. It's more funding development and fundamental research is obviously an incredibly important underpinning to US economic growth. As part of why use productivity has been such a consistent source of. Economic growth for the US. I mean, that's productivity growth is why the US has become rich nation, it's because ideas and technology has named the US to grow on average about a half percent. Two percent, Adam foster than many of the other industrialized countries. And so research is critical. That's why things like the National Science Foundation universities, so so crucial. And if you look at the big tech companies, they obviously have enormous budgets are Indy. And specifically I made a lot of the during a lot on the research side. So I think it's super important than I spend my weekends reading science books because I find that stuff fascinating. But our investments as you pointed out have to be grounded in things a little bit more news item development, focus at say. We typically done in base in a company that isn't within about two years of being able to ship its product to customers. So sometimes making in basements in security company into Bryce storage company. Something of that ilk where it may be as. Eighteen twenty four months development cycle before fiscus, Michelle. But if something is sort of five plus years beyond the horizon, the probe isn't a good investment for us just given up a fun construct and in the judgment. We have to make his given exponential Rothe, which the things we we misjudge. We think it's seven years away Natanz on to be three years away. And so that's a tricky balance. You know? In a row self there. Yeah. Great those who were listening to this. We'll we'll no doubt. Detect your South African accents at your your immigrants to to our country having grown up a born in Pretoria grew up in the suburbs of Cape Town, two prominent family. Your grandfather was foreign minister to the country your other economists. What was the drew you to to the US? A yours is a company that has famously not only made up of a number of investors who were immigrants to the US. But also so much of Silicon Valley actually, Silicon Valley companies that is has a founder or to who grew up or spent meaningful time outside of the US before immigrating here, and I'm always curious for for people who who who've made their pathway to the us what it was that attracted them. Suni? I think in general the US is just so tractive to talented people around the world as as a. Place that is about meritocracy and way immigrants at least traditionally have been welcomed, and it's very hard for me to imagine any other country in the world way. Someone can go with a onto native. They don't speak the language English is my second language, and will you'd have the sort of opportunity to integrate into society to have an opportunity to excel in whatever field, whether it's academia will business. Everybody has an opportunity to excel. I don't think there's any country in the world can rival the US in that regard. And so from my point of view, I thought about you know, the might have been trusting me to go live in Europe and actually worked for summer in the United Kingdom, and it was just palpable that it was not the same as being the US. I mean, this truly is the land of opportunity. That's part of why the US to me might sense. And my grandmother had a time magazine lying around the house in the mid ninety s and I read this article about Stanford University and lit up a lightbulb for me. I applied to go to Stanford. I was lucky enough to get in. And it seemed as though and this was a plied in nineteen Ninety-seven gut to the US nineteen ninety eight and then just you'll to go to Stanford business school years. And it just seemed as Silicon Valley was this fountain of opportunity. There was so many new businesses being created his such innovation technology, a wonderful bridge to Asia. It just seemed like a place I needed to get to and honesty when I got to the US. I didn't even know what venture capital was. I never knew. I'd be in this job. I didn't think I would join a startup company like PayPal, which I did right out of business school. I just haven't intuition that. I needed to get here. I would find moral -tunities does one of these. Open up dole that might lead to more more doors and more possibilities on the road. That was really the intuition not a typically well planned out. That though it's worked out pretty well for you. The advice. The advice often give people is at least when I was. I mean, I came to the US was twenty three it's very hard to have a five year plan when you twenty three, you know. And so what I try to do is just just figure out if the Knicks decision, you're making is something that opens up possibilities for you, a one that shuts down opportunities you. And to think about decision processes career in that way. Seems like great advice off. It's a pleasure to to make your acquaintance. I appreciate you taking time with me today sharing a bit about the way in which you think about your your own personal investment portfolio in landscape, the of the landscape more, generally speaking, it's been a great conversation. Thank you very much heater colas, welcome. It's a great to speak with you today for she taking a little time with me. Thank you for having me, Peter. Appreciate it not -solutely, Peter. I thought we begin with your your role is CEO and co founder of ethos life company, you founded that just a bit over two years ago based in San Francisco. An organization that is has really caught quite a bit of momentum. Both in terms of of the investor community that his invested in it as well. As course, more importantly as the precursor to all of that the business that you were developing I thought I'd give you a moment to just sort of talk a little bit about the business as well. As maybe if you can take me back to its founding. What was the problem that you were looking to solve in creating business? Yeah. Absolutely. So we started he says, my partner Linke Wang. And I wall we were roommates Stanford business school. We were getting MBA's, but I come from a background of advertising and Linke had come from a technical background. He's very talented computer scientists, and we originally got interested in a different aspect of life insurance and learned a lot about it in what we came to understand was that life insurance was incredibly important more than five percent of kids in the US. You're gonna lose a by the time that they're eighteen and seventy percent of families are so unprepared that if they lost breadwinner, they would be total financial ruin within three months, implying that Americans are very unprepared for the loss of the bed winner. And so as important as life insurance is we realized that it's executed quite poorly by the existing industry. And we saw an opportunity to dramatically improve how it's executed with technology. And so so that that's kind of the premise that that that we were trying to solve life insurance is is an excellent product. But it's executed very cordless ethos is a modern and ethical life insurance company. So while the traditional life insurance experiences this kind of fifteen week morass pushy agents and paper, applications and medical exams and blood tests. Either simply different you go to our website you fill out an application online and ten minutes. And then you're done, you're no medical exams. No blood tests. No paper applications, no pushy agents. And so we launched earlier this year, and we're now processing thousands of applications each month and look forward to continued growth. And why why do you suppose it has been executed so poorly? It is it is a business that has been around for an awfully long time. Time. It's a very successful business as well. On a lot of great companies actively involved in it. And so yeah, check that box also. But but what what then what are the issues from your perspective? Sure. So cute. Do things one is the product itself is very difficult to get. And so if you want life insurance, you kind of have this fifteen week morass of a process where you have to go through this agent whose incentivized to sell your largest and most expensive policy. They can and you'll fill out these paper applications, you'll get medical exams. You'll get blood tests at the end of it. You'll get this price that's much higher than you originally quoted, but you've gone through this process. And so you're either going to get this policy or you're going to gamble your family's future and not get it. And so that's one part is it's it's very difficult to purchase. The second part though is a overall problem of incentives, which is an a life insurance agent is is compensated to sell you the largest and most expensive policy costal, and what that entails generally is something permanent life insurance permanent. Life insurance is often investment feature. Chronic that costs twenty times as much as a term life, which is the best option for most families in Africa and so- agents, like the focus on slowing permanent life insurance because their commissions are twenty times as much and they usually focus on selling it to people who can afford it wealthier families where people who can't afford it. But our unsuspecting or who they can convince the purchase, and what would figure it out was eighty seven percent of people who purchased those permanent life insurance policies, lapse them or render them losing or forbidding a huge amount of the value that they put into it and their families getting nothing. And so those were those were kind of the two big issues that we wanted solve one is, you know, this kind of old Janke process and the second one is one of products that are designed to enrich agents and companies at the expense of individuals. One of the reasons or I should say another of the reasons beyond the ones that you noted for the length of the process is a desire by the companies to. As best as possible evaluate the risk of that. They're insuring thus the battery of tests to determine how healthy the the would be insured is beyond sort of the easier things to understand in terms of age in weights in heightened all this roots of things, how do you get around some of those things in some ways that seems very prudence understanding, you know, what the life expectancy based on some data, and based on in actuarial tables and past customer sort of experience, these sorts of things how does how do you in having a faster process, which no doubt is is pleasing to the insured. How do you do so without assuming too much risk in the process? Sure, my old girl perspective is that you'll life insurance is a highly considered financial purchase in most highly considered financial purchases. Today have an excellent digital solution. Whether it's Oscar Health for health insurance or rocket mortgage for mortgages for. Open door for selling your home. They're all these excellent truly digital solutions. And that's kind of what he does is to life insurance. You know, life insurance underwriting hasn't changed in fifty years since blood testing game big and the way that we do. It is algorithm Mickley underwriting somebody's life expectancy based on supplementary data. So what does that mean, it means using data to be able to verify if somebody's telling the truth to us or or being forthcoming about whether it's their behavior or their health information? And then the second is being able to use data to predictably model for somebody. Who looks like you in your situation. What's your, you know, expected risk passing away during a certain term link, and so it's a very precise science, automated underwriting, but it's all for the benefit of the consumer and being able to. To offer them a policy instantly online with the hope that people who otherwise wouldn't purchase a policy will. Interesting Peter t talk a bit about the way in which you've thought about like digital experience the role that technology plays in this. There is again as we talk about the traditional way in which this is done a very tactile analog way of of doing business. You think about the mountain of documents you need to sign the battery of tests again all things are done. Typically in person keep talking about the way in which you've thought about the digital versions of each of those analog experiences, and again sort of simplifying things for for customers would be uh stores. Sure were students of behavioral science and product testing is what I would say. So you know, we wanna maximize for a couple of things one. We want to maximize for ease it use so making it faster and cheaper and better. And then the second thing is we want to maximize for people disclosing everything that they interrupt the process. And that's you know, that's I think a been a large prevention to carriers in the past carriers are are are completely dependent on life insurance agents for a hundred percent of their policies. If says going direct to consumer online, we don't have the benefit of meeting our customers, and and through that we need to we need to figure out how to get them to be very transparent with us. And so we study how do we ask certain questions and certain ways that make people feel comfortable, you know, being forthcoming with us. And what we found is that our customers are extremely honest with us when we do retroactive data studies, we found out that that we've built with brand it starts with the brand where people feel comfortable engaging with the brand ask things in a way that doesn't put people off and doesn't seem intimidating and then, you know, if you do wanna speak with somebody on our team being really approachable letting them know that we're not here to sell them a policy that no one on our team is commissioned or will profit from them as a customer that. We're really there just for their their. Our own well-being, and that we truly care about quitting their family. I. What true you you've talked about the problem, you looked to solve and the fact that there was there was a problem, in fact to be solves that was part of what was attractive to this. But, but what greed you to the industry, generally speaking as you talked about at least sleepy one fairly antiquated one relative to many, maybe that's the answer is that they're disruption had not yet happened. But but I'm curious what what what was the original impetus to get into to insurance? Sure. I'm so is an intersection of a few things the first was as I mentioned the product itself is truly good. So we thought by doing what we're doing? We'd have an opportunity to better the world the second is it was an attractive market both because it was large, but also the because of the industry incumbents are are very slow to move this. What I would say by nature they avoid risk. That's that's what they're that's what their job said dependent on for a long time. And in life insurance carriers aren't these kinda Dapitan green aggressive companies in the same way that like AllState Geico are in respect property and casualty insurance they're they're quite different. And so we like the competition. But then Furthermore, we liked the competition was totally dependent on agent channels and that they had the channel conflict and could not go direct to the customer, New York. Life cannot go direct to because your they're dependent on these ageing channels, which have served them well for very long time. But in this digital age making very difficult for them to adapt. And so we knew that we would have a long lead time against people who have infinitely more Memphis capital us. And so relying on kind of our speed of execution technology instead of massive amounts of capital. How how you develop your team? How big is your team what roles if you hired for the interest? How how you thought about this? Sure, i'm. Today. I think we're thirty five and we're growing quickly. I think we'll be fifty or sixty in the next few months, and you know, they're kind of two core parts short team. The most core part is engineering and product, I'm so we're very product focus company. We put most of our effort into building an excellent customer experience that could be something that the customer sees on the front end where could be on the back end as far as automating some processes or figuring out how to make things more enjoyable. We put just as much effort into the back end as we do with front end. And then the second part is you know growth, and so you don't want only being bring a product solution to a customer acquisition problem. And so we think a lot about who. Should we be reaching out to as our customers? How can we get them comfortable with ethos? How can we potentially educate them on life insurance? One of the most interesting things about our businesses. The vast majority of customers that we process are people who were not looking from life insurance. There are people who are good candidates for life insurance, but they were not actively seeking it themselves, and we approached them in, you know, through some sort of medium and said this is life insurance. This is the value proposition this ethos, and you know, you might be well suited for it. And we found that that that the non hard sales method is working quite well for us because we have an excellent product. You also have an excellence group of investors of the likes of sequoia excel Google center on GV. Interestingly enough, you also have a number of the Jay Z is invented have rather invested us me. Kevin Durant has as well. I I'm curious actually how you thought about the makeup of your both your investors as well as the four that you've developed. Sure. Yeah. You expect Jay z to invest in a life insurance company right by exactly. You know, I think one common thread to all of our investors is they really identified with the problem that we were trying to Saul. You said, hey, we know life insurance is sexy. We have no delusion that they're probably cooler companies that have approached shoes or an investment. However, it's incredibly important it's fallen very far behind consumer suffer because of it. And we have a solution that can be game changing and become a builder in market-leading this building enduring business. We set a hunt. A great life insurance company has not been built for one hundred fifty years, New York, light not life. You know, the northwestern mutual. These companies are all about one hundred and fifty years old. And and you know, that's the way the industry is structured, and so we're up against grade competition, but the opportunity could be very large. So that's. The common theme that ran through. All of our investors are our largest investors are sequoia and excel, and they're wonderful partners. We couldn't be more pleased with our our investment partners. Excellent. You've talked about some of the the growth that you're intimating from a people perspective. Do you is there other aspects of your strategic roadmap as you look to the next year to three that you you can share where do you see the how else do you see the company growing other than the people you hope to bring in? Yeah. Absolutely. So the market that we're in today allows for a lot of growth just with our current products. And so I think for a while we're probably just going to be focused on just continuously getting better at what we do in helping more and more families. And then I think the next step for us is we're building trusted relationships with people because we have a great product and at an ethical kind of foot forward and with this what other products can best be same customers. They might be related to life insurance. You know, or they might be totally different I'm into. So we have some ideas about what we'd do the thing that would dictate what products we launch is for us the product needs to be ethical in that it can't be like us, a monetize ING our customers or or doing wealthy sense of our customers and the. Second thing is the the leap from the traditional industry experience to our experience that we would brand needs to be as great as the one that we brought to life insurance. So we want to continue innovating using technology to really build a better customer experience in additional products. Excellent will appear Peter colas. Thank you so much for joining me today. Sharing some perspectives on the company, you're growing. Congratulations on your success to date in best of luck in the future. Thanks so much eater. Appreciate it. Thanks for tuning in. Please. Join me next week when my guess will be Diana MacKenzie. The chief information officer of workday.

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