Covenant Theology with Emilio Ramos
Kendra let me clarify for everybody. You're you're podcast that you did I JUST WANNA make everybody understand the way that I viewed it is that I thought you were incredibly gracious and incredibly fair and I had nothing but appreciation for what you did so no. There's nothing I would've told you. I know you well enough to tell you. Hey man what are you doing? I would have gotten a phone call right. No incredibly fair and balanced and I appreciate you for that come to the rap report with your host who rep reports where we provide biblical interpretation and Application Mrs Ministry striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community for more contents or request. The speaker for Your Germs. Go to striving for eternity. God more alright well. We are privileged this week to have a special guest. If you listen to last week's episode you already know who the guest is but last week. We you've wrapped up our or maybe so we thought we wrapped up our discussion on the church and we ended up talking about John Macarthur and his his message. He did an okay. Portion of his message dealt with dispensational. If you remember from last week I played a clip from a pastor menial Ramos. Who is the pastor of Heritage Grace Community Church and the founder of Red Grace Media? And we've brought him on so that he can correct everything that I said wrong about him so it is. It is a privilege to have you on. I think you and I and I actually Kinda got to know each other more from through your wife your wife and I both worked with well back then. It was where the master and then way the master wretched and we got to really know each other through through your wife. Introduce yourself to the audience here. If you could talk about your roles pastor right grace media Also you know I've had the privilege of knowing some of your salvation testimony and if you could just share for folks how you got safe so they can get to know you. Well it's good to be with you. Andrew thanks for having me on the program and yet kind of the story of my life a lot of folks no me through. Trish and through the where she did with Ray and their later with todd three wretched and so Not Surprising that you're right so you and I kind of got to know each other Through the years and Right now I'm privileged to be the preaching Pastor Heritage Grace Community Church in Frisco Texas and Been doing that now for Of Approximately eight years and then prior to that I did pass through church and Fort Worth for a number of years. So I've been pastoring in Texas since two thousand seven and Also Been Doing. Open air preaching at The Local University here U. N. T. University of North Texas and A lot of activity featured on regulates media represent the multimedia ministry that I started many years ago. That just kind of gave me a platform to talk about all the various aspects of Christian theology and and and things that we And I am passionate about like apologetic evangelism but also reform theology which is really more of my personal interests. I do apologetic evangelism and things like that. To be quite honest Moore born out of necessity. Just to equip the church and and to engage Culture into spread the Gospel and it could do evangelism but Really my passion has really become sort of The kinds of things that we cover on our Youtube Channel which is reformed theology and when it comes to apologetic very distinct than Chilean apologetic which is a presupposition of apologetic as you know. And so You asked me about my testimony. Well of course you know we'll see. My testimony is as simple as the fact that when I was nineteen years old God. Sovereignly saved me pulled me out of life of rebellion. I did not grow up in. The church was not raised Christian anyway whatsoever I was raised Basically just You know the the I would say. It's kind of an average kid so to speak in terms of partying and getting into trouble and stuff like that and Lord. Save me from a life of of all kinds of drugs games violence. You know things like that and God gave me A new heart and he sovereignly intervened. I guess the one thing I would point out about my salvation Is that the Lord when he saved me I actually happened to be the only Christian in my family My Stepfather at the time proclaimed Christ. A certain degree don't really know where he was really truly act with. Lord of at the time This is nine hundred ninety six but at that time I wrote down every family. Member's name on a piece of paper. I think it was one hundred. Fifty family members On two sides of a piece of paper and not one single Christian in my entire family on both sides of the family and so God was very gracious to me and I just began systematically to Banjul is my family. And so that's little bit of the kind of the background where I came from in terms of salvation and then from there I was I was introduced to carry Chapel Where I attended Sex Mitt search for a number of years and later I moved into a smaller chapel which was actually where I met Easy meals Wayne from living waters and Mark Spence at the same time and so and that's also where met right comfort? So that's kind of where things took off from that point on so Yeah that's right. So how many of your family members know Christ now question? Yeah a number of them now. Praise the Lord My parents my sister nephew My brother-in-law couple of my cousins perhaps And yes the Lord has has definitely brought numerous family members One of the One of my aunts actually just recently moved to Texas in. She's also she's also a Christian. So praise God for that and I have been able to have the privilege of doing smoke in air with you when I was out in Texas. Came out with with your team and folks if you if you haven't had an opportunity to watch emilio do open air. It is good because I think there's a lot of people we wish wouldn't do open air and mobile. Don't do it well but Amelio is an example of how to do. Well you end up hearing him answering questions and this is why. I think you do it so well. Because you're a pastor. I can hear when you do open air here. The shepherd the shepherd heart in you you know. I hear someone asks the question. Even if they're challenging you're you're always going to it with compassion in your voice your concern about the soul. You can hear that. I've always appreciated about that with your open air. So let's get to. What brought us here today right so you and I you and I have some disagreements on when it comes to dispensationalist Covenant Theology. We just have a different view of of looking at it. I realized after I sent you the the episode from last week and I went. I wonder if you ever knew that. I that that that long conversation we added Shepherds Conference. I was like anxiously waiting to go and make it so I was like Oh. I didn't know that you ever knew that. But but yeah I mean it was it was. It's always enjoyable to get together with you. I always every time. There's things that I learned so when you said You'd WANNA come on. I was like. Oh that'd be great So what you did a response to John. Macarthur at Shepherd's conference. I thought I didn't play the full thing. But I think that you gave your Gave very flattering words to him in the sense of explaining the respect that you had for him but you do have disagreements with what what he had said and you wanted that your audience to to know that I think. That's that's good because I responded to you. I think it's only fair that you get a chance to respond to this this same audience to say. Hey here's here's what where we differ and you get to say it in your own words so to start us off for folks who maybe covenant. Theology is a newer thing or as you said Reform Theology Could you give an overview of of your position? What what you hold to and and someone why you hold to it. Well sure Coveted Theology is the theology. That stresses the idea that what we're looking at in scripture is one organic plan of salvation and that plan of salvation is encapsulated within the concept of Covenant and what is a covenant a covenant is something like a an agreement bond a commitment God makes on the basis of some sort of Either a ritual or sacrifice or an oath Oath that God takes actually agree with Meredith clients definition of a covenant that Covenant is a oath bound commitment and sometimes I I use the covenant of marriage as a perfect example of what a covenant is Covenant Marriage of course entails to people taking an oath and making commitments to one another. And that's what the and that's what Covenant Theology really is stressing. Is they've gone through. These covenants has made certain commitments. Either to his people Or to a nation or to his son And all of these Covenants of course are bound by some form of commitment or ocean and that when God makes a covenant he swears by his own name about his own integrity for example as we see in the Abraham at Covenant But Covenant Theology stresses. Also the idea that not only. Are there the covenants that we know of? In terms of biblical history like the the n-o-a-a cosmic or the Abrahama or the mosaic where Vic the new covenant but also that behind that there are other covenants that may not be as explicit for example Reformed Theology believes in Covenant of Redemption. Which is an intra Trinitaria cover? That's a covenant between the members of the Trinity and in this Covenant of Redemption is where God the father the son and the spirit blows are all commit In terms of the means and the objects of Salvation of redemption and so that each member of the God head has a role to play in the Covenant of Redemption and that from the Governor of Redemption Stream. Fourth all the other covenants. Really and that. What you begin to see is that as doctrine of the world in creating his image and Adam Adam becomes in a sense a sort of a coveted being and that Adam immediately is placed into Covenant Relationship With Covenant Dot Com Reform. Theology stresses that God's Covenant God and that we are covenant creatures And Adam in the garden of Eden for example in genesis chapter two versus fifteen seventeen was in a covenant relationship with God For Two reasons by virtue of being in the image of God and number two by virtue of being in under the command belong of gone. And so that is what we would call the coug nickel works whereby Adam When when if and when he were to perfectly obey God's command law in the garden to eat of all the other trees but of the knowledge have been able to show not eat 'cause the day that he will die where literally undying he will die so He had to earn What was promised to him in that covenant which I think would have been a perpetuation until he reaches eternal life in Eden and giving away I think even to a higher eden or higher world Which I think would be represented by the Sabbath for example so we can come back to that if you'd like. But and then also we believe that of course after the fall of man because Adam did not obey that initial covenant whereby he would have a earned the right to eternal life to eat of the tree for example of eternal life which the tree symbolizes eternal life. He lost the right to that tree and did not get to partake of the tree of life and therefore as he fell in sin man was in need of another cognitive but no longer a covenant whereby through merits he could earn his rights his right standing before God and advance himself but he's to sort of move into a higher form of life and now in order for Nancy achieved that man must be in a different covenant arrangement and this is what we call the Covenant of Grace which you begin to see the very foundation of that in Genesis. Three fifteen Where God promises that through the seed his Messiah Messianic seed or we will achieve ultimate and final victory over the serpent for example. And so there you have. It reformed theology with stress coveted every Dempsey covered grace covered works and then all the other cognitive that you see are in outworking of the principles that you find either in the cupboard of grace or in the cupboard works. And so I would say that you find elements of those covenants intermingled In different biblical coveted so for example The Covenant with Abraham Is a gracious covenant. But it also entails a certain level of commitment on the part of Abraham in a certain level of works whereby he he he has to walk blameless but as it pertains to Abraham Salvation or redemption that is only going to be a result of the covenant of Grace God promising to save a people by grace through faith that is not a random act of kindness on the part of God just because God is good or kind gracious that is a covenant bound Promise that he makes for those who repent and believe obviously in Jesus Christ and so that would be kinda where I would start with. You WanNa go to bath too long or two D too fast here but That that would be kind of the overarching. So ultimately because there is a sort of organic continuity through all the covenants We can expect that God has one ultimate purpose and I would say one ultimate people of God one alternate salvation for the people of God and one ultimate destiny for the people of God and one thing. I WANNA clarify because this is. This is a straw man argument that I hear Dispensational Make Against Covenant Theology and Song. I mentioned on the show last week. But when you say covenant of. Works will be clear you're not saying works salvation. The Covenant of Works is the name given for that period of for the that time period were this covenant is is in play. But it's not as as some dispensationalist try to say that it's two ways of salvation. You made it clear. I think that you believe in one way of Salvation One Gospel. Why wouldn't put it this way under that salvation is by works but it's the work of Christ. Yeah it's it's it's by works. It's by works in in in in terms of somebody needs to keep the law of God. The problem is is none of us will do it None of us can do it. Adam couldn't didn't do it He could have done it but he did. Not Do it We believe that by Nature Adam could have day but he did not obey and therefore Somebody does need to keep the law of God will let exactly what Adam to Jesus is. He fulfilled all righteousness. He kept the log perfectly and therefore our salvation was earned and because our salvation was earned it can therefore be applied to us by the merit of Christ. Now when you talk with the covenants and I'm going to cause I wanna I I think there's more similarity in our positions than many people often think of and I think it's because it's easier to attack. Straw man arguments. You mentioned several covenants the Covenant of With Adam Moses No attic The new covenant as dispensationalist. We too would end up. Seeing the covenants we would as a dispensationalist I would end up seeing that. Each of those covenants gave new responsibility new more revelation would be given. But it's it's a new accountability for the people a new Responsibility that they have and sometimes a different way. God works with his people his elect people during that time. Would you? Would you agree at least with that aspect that at different times? God is made covenants with his people giving them responsibility and the he works with his people at that time might be different. When there's no question about that but I think it just goes down to definition of terms When you say he works with his people in different ways I don't think you mean anything like classic dispensationalist in in the tradition of Scofield. Darby would believe which definitely does lead to Some sort of merit based system of salvation. And that's why that whole classic approaches than pretty much rejected and now with what we have in in Macarthur will be have in Dallas seminary and places like that isn't much more of a progressive dispensational. Leaky dispensational ISM as you have heard it said but but the same time you know now that we can put that kind of off the table. No-one no-one neither you nor I is talking about man being able to earn his salvation But in these different dispensations and. I don't have a problem using the word dispensations. You read any reform theology. You read these guys. Using the work. Disconcert of course may only mean they mean that interns of ethical definition meaning that we were looking at different. Epochs we mean that in the way scripture means that you know Hebrews Chapter One Gary Times in various ways God spoke to the father's right and And and and those types of Epochal distinctions Second Peter Talks about the time of Noah a refers to it as the world that then was it was a different epic but And and during those types of epochs you do have God operating in the midst of his people in different ways so even under the mosaic period of time we can expect that nation in a theocratic institution is. GonNa have things that we no longer have. God relates to them in ways that he doesn't relate to us. We no longer are bound to the ceremonial and civil aspects of law. For example we no longer obey positive law. That's all been removed in Christ and so there's no question that God worked with his people in different ways at different times for different reasons but reformed theology. I Saint Andrew would make this distinctive if I if I may be allowed to make. This distinction is That we're looking at here is not just simply the progression of time. But we're looking at a temple logical structure in the Bible. We're moving from type anti type and that's why things change. Yeah I think I would agree with with a lot of that. I think I I you know one things in your in the response that you did to John Macarthur it and I said this in the last episode it really clarified for me where I felt. So much of the the the cross talk between dispensationalist coming theologies occur. And because I there I was talking to a pastor. Who Really didn't understand. He had only studied dispensationalist. Never Studied Covenant Theology. Which is which is really. I think a shame to for anybody to only study one side of argument. I think that that I my opinion is that can that could give people an unbalanced view and give them a false sense of assurance that they're right when when they main they just don't know the arguments actually made. They only hear arguments that their side makes and that becomes problematic. So I think we're response. What it really helped with would it would it really helped was the fact that he I started. I was listening to you and realize that when when I talked on the previous episodes of this podcast as we went through the church we talked about how historically the term ECHINACEA the church changed over time and it became something that people start defining as different with the local gathering where it's a mix of unbelievers and believers and the Universal Church. That is all believers. But we don't talk about Israel in that way but it was it. Israel was a mixed the nation of believers and unbelievers and then we speak of spiritual Israel and we talk about them. Well they're all believers and I in in your response. It actually clarified in my mind. What I couldn't put my finger on was the issue in much of this discussion it. It's because you are really clear that you're referring to spiritual Israel and a lot of people when they're responding to covenant. Theology are talking national Israel and I think I think there's a miss there. I think that you brought us out in your in your thing the how you handle Israel and the church is essentially really where we would differ for the most part. I think that's the biggest difference. So could you get into your view of of Israel and the Church and define that for folks yes you can also just want to point out that my response to John MacArthur was Interesting because The way that it was received I had had pastors and students and stuff coming up to me at the conference. And Hey what's your. What's your video your response and I would say. I think I had about five. Different folks approached me and I think all of them except for one were very positive even to the point. Where maybe we will yeah. That's that's pretty much exactly where I now. I had one At one pastor come up and said Hey I think you're missing it. And here's why and we ended up having a really good discussion for about an hour really really good. Very friendly loving discussion and so I but you know on social media had people like you know criticizing me and and really taking cheap shots for no reason showed it so immature that we can't even have these conversations but whatever I was just trying to clarify because like I said ninety percent of everything MacArthur said on that in that message I I thought the stellar But obviously coming from Reformed Covenant Theology and from that position. I obviously took issue with his His his understanding or the way that he described reforms. Permanent it's on one hand and on the other hand talking about Replacement Theology Let me just say with regard to Israel. I think the word replacement theology is really unfortunate And to me when I hear somebody used the word replacement the it's almost a clear indicator that really they really do not understand. Reform Theology That that you know telling someone that Year Replacement Theologian From Covenant Perspective would-be. Like me saying that dispensations believe you can earn your salvation in the Old Testament. I don't think macarthur would ever be okay with somebody telling him you can earn your salvation in the Old Testament of course not but that's the kind of at Hominem stuff that happens when you're not really educated on on theology in these areas and so when it comes to Israel though I would just put it this way there is no such thing as as the nation's Israel anymore not in terms of the purpose of God or the economy of God and that is where I know dispensationalist will disagree because I don't believe that Israel as a nation any longer has any program in the in the in the plan of God. I don't believe that there will be a restoration of the nation of Israel. I don't believe in the millennium that Israel will be sort of the focal point of the raid of Jesus Christ on Earth When there is references to Israel in the new testament references to the Jews is simply speaking ethnically but Israel at an institution has a nation state as an elected nation has lost its national election and has forfeit its coveted blessings and it's cutlets standing God has declared low on me. You are not my people and when Jesus destroyed the temple and even prior to that When Jesus was You know when Jesus on the Cross and he died on the cross God to make a emphatic once for all declaration toward the veil from top to bottom not only to say the way that new and living waves here into the holy place but to say the old way has expired. And that's exactly what you find in. The book of Hebrews is that the old is gone and the newest here and so bad. That's kind of where I think. We'll probably as dispensationalist in covenant. Does we will always disagree. I do not see a future for the nation of Israel although I do see a future for national news about big center ethnic Jews yes I mean it makes sense. We may disagree on it but it does make sense and I hope that you weren't thinking of me. We're talking about cheap shots. On the no you know Andrew I would Kendra let me clarify for everybody. You're you're podcast that you did I JUST WANNA make everybody understand the way that you do is that I thought you were incredibly gracious and incredibly fair and I I have nothing appreciation for what you did so no. There's nothing I would've told you. I know you well enough to tell you. Hey man what you doing I would have gotten a phone call. Did Not right now. It was incredibly fair and balanced. And I appreciate you for that well. That's what we tried to do here. And I I actually agree with you about Macarthur's usage of replacement theology. When he was on Ben Shapiro show. I cringed when I heard him say that I was like that you. It's hard in my mind. Maybe in yours. It's hard to conceive someone who is as as bright as an intelligent as studio says he is to make what what I think and it like you may agree a a really simple misstep with the use of that word. I don't know if it's it's just easier. It's always easier to to to fight Straw man. That's always the case. But when he was on with Ben Shapiro it was the same thing he he defined Covenant Theology as a Replacement Theology. And it's something that I don't think there. There are extremes that hold to a position like that but it is not fair to to blanket a whole group of people by the extreme and I personally wish he would stop doing it because it does it does money lane and when you say replacement theology that very much like when did you stop beating your wife very much like You know a complete a poisoning the well so speak and so It's not a helpful. I don't think it's a helpful way to this but at the same time I must say I do sympathize with Macarthur. When you take his position that what Covenant Theology is saying. Is that the promises that were made to to ethnic Israel to Jews You know when you're coming from a dispensational Bent you expect to see the literal fulfillment of certain promises prophecies That regard Israel You expect to see literal fulfillment of those types of things. I listened very carefully. Use a term that if you need me to define it I will. Year expecting a Geel physical fulfillment whereas reform. Theology understands all of that. To be mainly redemptive escott logical in its fulfillment. Those are big terms. If you WANNA talk more yeah we. We should have let. Let's let's let me let me play go break and then if you could after the break define terms. I know what you mean by them but it is. You recently. Did a show with with someone who you did the same thing when he put the big words out you need to explain because not everyone understands but basically whether we believe the the future is a land promise or spiritual promise. That's the the very short way after this break. Have you give it better definition? The good news is striving for eternity. Would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks teaching them Biblical Herman Buddha. That's right the art and science of interpreting scripture. The bad news is somebody attending might be really upset to discover Jeremiah. Twenty nine eleven should not be there lifers to learn more go to striving for eternity dot org to host a Bible Interpretation Made Easy seminar in your area my name is Andy Olsen and I wanNa tell you about echoes. Radio Echo. Radio is podcast outreach of ECHO ZOE ministries every month. I find a knowledgeable guest to talk about an important and interesting topic that affects the church. Today we carefully balanced the discussions of positive God glorifying doctrines of Oxford Sanity from mostly reformed point of view with exposes of heresy. False teaching and four practice. That goes on throughout the church. Today you can find us at ECHO DOT com. That's E. C. H. O. Z. O. E. dot com all right an echo. Zoe is one of the podcasts on the Christian podcast community which is also part of this podcast that we are also on there so go to Christian podcast dot org to check out all of the twenty plus and ever growing list of podcasts. So let's talk about Israel in the church because this is going to be the question that I had written down in my notes for you was do you believe in a future for Israel and the. That's really where you you before the break you're getting too. So what is the Covenant View of the future for Israel or and really? It's is there one really the answer? That question is yes and no yes. There is a future for Jews. No there is not a future for Israel as a nation that is an institution to resurrect the concept of the Old Testament theocracy for example so no whereas in dispensational thought you must have a literal. And this is the word use the geophysical fulfillment of the Jewish state. And so you must have a literal millennium where Jesus must literally rain from literal Jerusalem in the Literal Temple as reformed Interpreters WE WE WE WE. We disagree with that And that's why the vast majority of reform folks would fall into either on millennials or post millennialism. I'm personally I'm millennial and so I believe that. The Millennium is not a liberal phenomenon. There in revelation chapter twenty and twenty reasons for that but So I would say yes if you're Jewish You're going to be saved like the Apostle Paul and so If you're going to be saved God will save you. But he will cook you into the church. He will not put you into Israel not even the futures and myself being a Jewish believer. I'm going to agree with you. Appeals sit there and and s me all time you know so as if you Messianic Jewish. You completed you. My answer is always a Christian right. I mean I got saved the same way everyone else did. By God's grace and it had nothing to do with me and it's nothing special and this is I for some reason. It seems hard for people to understand. Like if if you're Jewish debris Cabbie something special about your salvation. No there isn't. I'm a member of the church. I may be from Jewish background and someone else from different backgrounds and it really doesn't matter but I do think and this is like you said this is where we we ended up disagreeing as I end up seeing that I do think God will have a plan for Israel in the future as a nation No I would I would end up seeing and let let let me ask you this. I should've asked you this ahead of time. Secret repair but in in Daniel. You're you're probably familiar. But in Daniel you have the the prophecy of the seventy weeks in Daniel Chapter Nine. Twenty four hundred twenty seven. I believe now as we look. At that break-up we end up seeing that he lays out a time from when sin is going. There's going to be an put an end to send finishing transgression And an everlasting righteousness. So he's got a list of things that he has there and he gives a total time of seventy seven year periods and he breaks down into a seven seven year period a sixty two seven year period and then that last seven year period and he breaks that in half now. I think universally ever from almost everyone I know we all agree that the first seven year period or or seven seven years from the building of of Jerusalem and the temple that being restored that is a literal forty nine years and then that sixty two seven years seven year periods. People see coming up until Messiah. Now I take those literal which then in my mind presents an issue for that last week because I think that has to be literal and it's split in half between you know the the first weekend or first half a week in the second half week so I see that as a three and a half year period of three and a half year period. How would you and so I guess? Part of the thing with that is where I might interpretation. Not Not that. I'm telling you bester you anything you don't know you've studied this but for people to bring them up to speed. I ended up taking that that this whole thing is little. I just see a gap between when Messiah is cut off until that covenant that's made for one week and that gap. I would end up. Seeing is is the period where now that in dispensational and we'd call the Church Age and I would end up seeing that that that seven year period will be in the future with Israel. How from your perspective is I think this is? This is a clear passage. Where because of our differences we're going to look at this very differently And you may not be ready to to do this on. And if if so that's fine but how would? How would you handle a text like that? Her view that Well you know I think My position would be much meredith. Kline position so if you read his Book God Heaven Harmattan. He has a section on Daniel's seventy weeks and so I'm kind of more in line with that I think that much of this was fulfilled at the cross And the the Daniel's seventy weeks is really referring to The the ratification of the new covenant through the Messiah and not so much indicative of the work of Anti Christ. But you're right. This takes us into the Jesus gained seventy weeks which is very complex and certainly not something. I'm prepared to do here and now but So I just I just take more of a messianic interpretation of that passage again. Daniel's seventy weeks but even then I would say even upon Daniels no The passage of Daniel there. I still think you need to Obviously account for wear in the New Testament. Do you see the use of Daniel's seventy weeks here and where and how do we understand it From the New Testament perspective. And certainly we WANNA think in line with the teaching of the apostles with teaching of the New Testament interpretation of Jesus and so what I'm saying is when we take all the Prophets Daniel. Ezekiel you know Zachariah. When we take all these tests into view I think what we see is Is is not something that is dispensational. Friendly I think it's more more covenant. Oh but you know that. That's the whole the whole region. We'RE TALKING YEAH. I mean that's that's where our differences come down and and I reason I brought that pass it up is because I think this is one where we can see how some over differences workout. Because I as I said in the last episode I don't think a lot of the differences we would have can be seen in many texts. I think that we going to sit down with the Texas scripture. You're GONNA preach through a book of the Bible. I'M GONNA Pretzel Book a Bible and for the most part we're going to we're going to be in line with so much of it and this is the thing that I just. I wish people understand. There's not as much of the disagreement as some make. I always think back to one of my seminary professors had said was he. You know we being not far from Westminster a more reformed seminary Presbyterian seminary. He was telling me that he was out. Studying with some the crossover at at Westminster and having a great conversation and this was when has very young in my seminary career and he's explaining and I'm always thinking like well. How could you get along with them? Like they're such such differences because the church I was in made. It seemed like there was great differences. And you couldn't get along with them and he said one of the wisest things I remember him getting from Amores he said you know. I can go over to that to Westminster and one of the profits from the systematic theology department can go over with Westminster and the to systematic theology professors. We'll find nothing. But their disagreements were I as an Old Testament. Scholar can meet with an old testament scholar from Westminster. We sit down and we look at the text and we're GONNA come to agreement because we're seeing. What the text says not our system and it was brilliant. I knew I had that was when the light bulb went off and I went. Oh yes it's whether you're a man of the text or man of the system and that was the day I decided. I WANNA be a man of the text and I've tried to do that. I don't know if they've been entirely successful but I try to do that now. I I think that Also when it comes to the use of Daniel for example in revelation. I'm very close to the interpretations that you'll find like G K bills commentary on revelation. I I don't think there's a commentary quite anywhere I I mean I can't think of another commentary that they're parallels Quite the extensive equality of the exit. Jesus that deal offers there so I think that's my go-to commentary For revelation that deal gets more right more often than any other commentary on revelation that is of equal depth than equal scholarship. You know those little tedious tedious commentaries very academic very rigorous very heavy on the languages and stuff like that. But I think Bills what I like about. Bill is exactly what you're saying that you know. It's all text driven. It's very heavy Textual Exegen data and we. We need that. Because you're right. There's a lot of times in which we can develop our idea our system to the neglect of exit. Jesus and we never want to do that. I may be a little bit more partial to Robert L. Thomas for revelation commentary. He's he's a master's professor but I think I think one of the things I want to bring out. You mentioned this earlier and a lot of people. This is a I think. A son you had said it's a strong argument from the Covenant Theology Against Dispensational. You were mentioning your position being millennial but the way you laid that out your position of millennialism. I believe and you'll correct me. If I say this I think is a byproduct of your harmonic. It it's not that you interpret scripture because of your millennialism. Would that be fair? Well it's kind of a false dichotomy because I do think I arrived at all millennialism both at suggestively and theologically for example in revelation chapter twenty. I see no reference to Israel AC- no reference to the Jews. I see no reference to the land. I see no reference to a- anything having to do with the temple or anything like that so there's Sparta's the just the exegesis of the Premier Passage on the Millennium Revelation twenty verses one through ten There's no reference to anything that pre millennialism is suggesting will be featured in the millennium. And so that that led me X. genetically to believe that. What was referenced in any Old Testament passages that assume a pre millennialism is superimposed onto the text of revelation? While you have to because like I said revelation mentioned none of the above and so that that may not be conclusive for some people It was for me at least partially and then of course the necessary consequence. I would say of my theology. The necessary consequence of theology. Hopefully grounded in Jesus would also Understand that the Millennium Literally Defined is very problematic for my theology. I certainly cannot believe. Say My biggest problem with the millennium. It I don't know how much you have thought deeply on this. I'm sure you have but I just simply don't believe that Jesus returns to a sub eschaton. I don't think when the truce takes place the second coming. I don't think that that results in anything less than total. Eskimo logical fullness. I don't think Jesus comes back for a partial existence again I just think he comes back for the consummation and so I can't envision but I can't envision even the thought of Jesus returning to rain from Jerusalem in his glorified body and yet people down the street or sitting behind his back. You know this this is where you know. Don't don't mistake me on that. I'm not I'M GONNA I'M GONNA engage in name calling very explicitly here just to get it out on the table but this is what like Louis Berkoff would call the absurdities of the millennium. Is things like that. Is the idea that they're still sitting going on while Jesus in Jerusalem in his glorified body beaming all of his glory and yet people are taking his name and Bane in different geographical location that becomes very difficult to me to sustain. But I think you're you're actually you're answering the question in the affirmative because he said you came to a millennial position from looking at the tax from exit genetically examining the text. You're not coming to the text and saying oh well this can't be the case because of millennialism. You're you're you're coming from the from what you see the text teaching and from that coming. And so when I say that it's a byproduct I mean that covenant. Theology is a harmonic. It's it's it's a way and I think you end up speaking of it as a crystal logical approach to to Interpretation that is what it is because what what I hear. All time has someone who's dispensational whenever if I mentioned dispensations in the first thing I hear is why I don't believe in pre millennialism and it's like okay. Great like who cares. I mean that's the point being is that's not what the what dispensationalist miss and. I hear that all the time and I think it becomes a like a straw man argument to say as if the dispensationalist ms just an end times view like you know so you have a Molyneux's post millennium dispensationalist and it's really. It's that's the one category I think like you're you are a reformed theologian and therefore you your as you said you are going to be post millennial millennial you're on Molyneaux. I would be dispensational. The reason being the dispensational is being compared to Covenant Theology. It's how we interpret the text. Both of us have a byproduct that leads it because of how we do our interpretation it is naturally going to lead to a different conclusion when it comes to End Times. Would that be a fair assessment? I think what you're talking about also terminates and so certainly I would disagree with Not Not with a historical grammatical method. I would disagree with the historical grammatical method. Only and that's the key If you say I mean because what I would say is little historical grammatical method is kind of like the obvious you have to interact with the grammar that history the background. But that's more of what I would call introduction material that's talking when you use the word historical grammatical The words historical air means something like the system visit some labor the situation the background of the author and the audience and the intent of the letter. Okay that the situation the context of the letter. That's what we would call introduction material that can be found in any commentary when reformed people talk about a redemptive historical method when we say historical we do not all means visit some Laban. The historical situation of Paul Paul an atlas he enrolled. Was He in jail that when we say historical in redemptive historical permanence. We are talking about redemptive history. And so we're talking about. How do we interpret this text in light of where it is situated in redemptive history in other words? How does the Exodus Affect the theology of any given text given its place in history? Its function its purpose etc etc When you were in ancient Israel the exodus was You know the exodus was mainly the historical situation that you were in. It had historical impact. When you come to the New Testament you start seeing that. The Apostles understood the exodus event to not only be a historical event but to be redemptive event and therefore the exodus event itself is theological. Is Teaching US something? Doctrinal about God. It's not just a brute history of humanity. Which may if you need me to explain any of that you just feel free to ask me but a we're GONNA do is I'm GonNa. I'M GONNA redirect folks over to rigorous media on Youtube and I'll put the links in in the show notes because I think each of those things are going to take a little bit more time to break down that we have left. I I had the sabbath written down. I don't know we break that down in the time left but let me. Let's do this. I want to wrap things up with you but before we do want to play a game with you and I want you to know no pressure on you. All the pressure will be on me but let let us play a game. It's time now to start the e spiritual transition game all right so let me explain to you how this game works. You're GonNa give me something anything at all and my job without editing this part out at all I have to transition to whatever from whatever you give me to the Gospel now you being open air evangelist. You're you're probably immediately seeing the application of this game but for many people to get into sharing the Gospel. The most difficult thing for them is that transition from the natural world too the spiritual and many people feel. They just can't share the gospel. Because how do I start the conversation what they is they pray Lord? Can you give me a conversation? And someone walks by and comes up to him. And just says Suzuki's tell me about Jesus. No that never happens. But that's what they're waiting for and yet what we can do is we can take anything. I believe from the natural world too the spiritual world and make that transition to the Gospel but it takes practice. And that's why we do. This is to show that with practice. You can do that. And so what do I have to transition to today? Well I will give you a word but I I'll give you a word about the game and the word is that everything in the natural world is spiritual but anyway Okay Maybe this might be anticlimactic here because it's so obvious but what how about Corona virus? Oh Wow yeah. That's that's on everyone's minds at the time that we're doing this recording for sure This this is really something. That is a amazing to look at. How something that you're the president of the United States is calling. The invisible enemy is something we can't really see is literally shutting down the economy of the entire world. And there's so many people that are very scared of it very nervous with it and yet they have no real answers. This is something that a question whether this is genetically made or not all these kind of things can be debated but there's one thing we can know for sure that there is a reason that we have a virus period any virus and it goes all the way back to the beginning of time with when Adam and Eve fell in a garden and violated. God's law and from that violation came in the entire universe according to Romans Chapter Eight is groaning because of the fall that was caused by what Adam and Eve did and because of that we all suffer every one of US break. God's law we Li- we steal we. We'd be criminals in God's sight but God made a way of escape that God himself came to Earth died on a cross that if we turn from trusting herself as a good person or trusting. Our good works week. Turn to Jesus Christ and we can have eternal life. And so there'd be a quick way to go from the corona virus to which which. Yeah that's that's this is a common one that we should be dealing with is the corona virus. But you're you know I think I think even here we're seeing some some views you'd said and you said it tongue in cheek but let me let you explain what you meant by everything in the natural world spiritual before we wrap things up because I would just said. There's I know you said it tongue in cheek but it's important for people to think through these things. Well it's very simple. This is God's world and we're living in it. There's no saying one of the worst things we have to here in our society is a natural disaster. There's nothing they've nature personified. Nature is not a person. It's not a it's not an entity You know the world is much nature its creation and everything within the created. World is God's and by virtue of its Having been created by God in that sense it has a spiritual character spiritual necessity about it. And so. That's that's another thing that we can use for vandalism. Mister show everybody. That's everything around us. Speaks to God and we know this from scripture of course because you know day to day you know the creationist pouring forth speech and everything is screaming about the glory of God of course and so in that sense. Everything that transpires in our lives you know this is one of the heirs of Rome is they. They're distinction between the Majesty and the distinction between the secular and the sacred and the the things that the reformers correcting right this show that don't everything sacred to God. It's not just it's not just the things we do in in in the Church Service Everything every every aspect of our lives you know in creation under heaven everything is for the glory of God and so you know whether you eat or drink or whatever you do whether you have corona virus or you have a corona beer. Everything is for God's glory and so in that sense everything in the natural spiritual and I would. I would agree that this is God's world is so let's let's give you a chance to wrap up we've dealt with a lot of topics we didn't get to the Sabbath One But I want to give you a chance. I love talking about the Sabbath. May What we could do. Is You know I think you and I talked about. This is possibly coming onto apologize. Live where we have two hours and people can come in and ask questions if you want to do something like that So maybe we can talk if that works but the The thing would be is that I want to give you a chance to wrap everything up here and anything that you feel you needed to close the loop on or anything you want to plug whether on Red Grace media or the church or anything sure. Well Yeah I mean people can go onto the redgrave youtube channel and and you know where they can find podcast and stuff where we elucidate this kind of stuff. You know I just had lane. Tipton on Last night we talked about Biblical theology. But I would just say this that. I'm very grateful to the fact that there is a massive resurgence really And Revival in the area of a Biblical theology. It's going to just become really important to understand who is doing typical theology. The Right Way and I would certainly just tell people that if you Whatever position you take you need to read people like boss you need to read bosses Biblical theology and you need to reverse his pauline s Collagen so even for you Andrew. If you haven't already but I would definitely take the time to to read Voss's Paulina scatology And just grapple with the concepts that he gives us there In so as long as you're reading guys like bill and boss and Another is like that. Of course I would say Meredith Kline Meredith. Kline tends to be a little bit Difficult for people who have been more nuanced but as long as we're reading. Those kind of good reformed theological works. Then we're starting to understand. I think how robust the reformed coven mental biblical. Theology is a lot of people doing still up to up to this point. It amazes me how many people still do not even know what. Biblical theology is and. That's changing even if it's separates conference I don't know if you noticed Andrew but There were quite a bit of Biblical Theology Teams. And that was very encouraging. I think Abner Chow Ironically he did some really good Biblical theology and his breakout session. And that shows you the influence of Biblical theology is is is real and really can revolutionize your your Your theology I think in a good way and make it much more Christ centered. Gospel centered and God centered and Just that's encouraging. Yeah I I think that I heard a lot of good things at Shepherd's conference that really. I think one of the things people think is that. Oh we'll all the theology was done in the past and we just use what they've done. There are some views that kind of think that it's this keep we keep studying. We keep the Bible is a book that we can study our entire life and never come to an end of study and we develop all of that and write it all down others work off that even more. That's the beauty of the scrolls. Yeah and I would say to Andrew With Biblical Theology Awakens. You too is just how endless it really is and So that's a good point that you're making so I appreciate you coming on. I'm I'm glad that folks can hear your own voice. You know your position I never want to be accused of misrepresenting in which I'm glad that you said I didn't and but I never want to. I'd never want this audience. I never want you guys to think that we're just promoting one side of an argument. Our goal years that you'd be disciple that you'd learn you would be challenged and dig into the scriptures if you think that pass from years right and I'm wrong I'm okay with that. We'll all be corrected in heaven and we'll be glad when we're corrected in heaven by the way but the thing is is that I hope that here that between Emilian I. We're not name calling each other. We're not fighting with each other. We know where we disagree. We know that there's a lot of agreement and we can work together in ministry because of a love for Christ and there's GonNa be some differences some texts that we're gonNA come to differently and yet it doesn't have to be the fighting and the separating we didn't there's one thing that we didn't really get into maybe maybe before we wrap up. Why don't let me put this out to you because it's something we talked about before one of the things. That frustrates me when it comes to these issues. Is these differences. That I think are not as great as some make them but they seem to be enough that people will separate and not fellowship and not talk to people over some of these disagreements. Where were you come in line with? Where would the be the line in these areas of separation and or should there be separation? That question Eh Drewnowski needs to be answered very very carefully It takes about everything it takes maturity And I don't I'm not just talking about maturity to get along that should be given As believers who claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit bearing the fruit of the spirit. We should have self-controlled meekness kind of gentleness you know all goodness all those things but even beyond that when I say maturity we have to be. I guess what I kind of hinting more towards is not just maturity but re being realistic Yes we should not break fellowship over the differences dispensational ISM and Coming theology however we also need to be mature enough to know what is the limit of our fellowship meaning Kenneka dentists dispensation was planning church. Together I would say no not unless you're looking to plant a church called disaster Because that's what you're going to have. We have to be realistic enough to know that. When you're on two different trajectories you're just not going to have good unity and therefore it takes a anything to To get it for the Gospel guys way back way. Back years ago I remember what marked ever and League Dunkin and I'll motor got together and all of that I remember them saying look. We're not. We're not planning church together. You know we. We know that. That's not possible. And that's that's exactly the right spirit. You know it's like okay. There are certain aspects of ministry that that can happen conferences. And and things like that and there's certain aspects of ministry that cannot happen which would be church planting. We cannot plant churches Among those two traditions a just doesn't make sense And I think we can avoid unnecessary division that way. I think there's something to be said for appreciating each other's traditions without trying to force Some in irreconcilable differences in the name of unity which really can no matter how hard we try will not be reconcilable on and so. I definitely think that it's it. The issue is important enough that we shouldn't try to plant churches together. If we disagree on the issues I guess as a pastor. That's where mine does. Well I it would be very hard to plant churches if people are going to be hard line on on these areas because they could that could cause grid issues but I have seen people that have been able to work together in churches. That do disagree on in these areas and it you hit the nail on the head. It's about maturity so but thank you for only because urgent urgent say you know. It's good for pastor to beat dogmatic in his own church and I agree with him. I mean look at the model of John Macarthur. Certain certainly Macarthur's dog that you can be a pastor at grace if you adhere to Reformed Covenant Theology. It's just not possible and I don't blame you. I don't hold that against them in any way whatsoever actually applauded. I think it's mature. Yeah well I appreciate you coming on value your time and I really commend you in the study that you're doing you're you're probably one of the more. Well read men that I know constantly every time. I hear you speak at someone else's book that you're reading so don't know where you the time. Now that you have a little one you know understood it when you have a little one running around so we appreciate you coming on and you're always welcome if If I ever if I ever respond to another video you do. You're always welcome to come on. I'm sure you will cognitive serve Angelique enough time. Well folks. That is another rap report. We WanNA encourage you to strive to make today and Attornal Day for the glory of God. And that's a wrap. 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