286: Jack Barsky | Deep Undercover with a KGB Spy in America Part Two
welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger as always here with producer Jason to Filipo on the Jordan. Harbinger your show. We decode the stories. Secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turned. There was them into practical advice. That you can use to impact your own life and those around you. I want you to become a better thinker and see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave if you're new to the show we've got episodes with spies and CEOS athletes and authors thinkers and performers as well as toolboxes for negotiation public speaking body language persuasion and more. So if you're smart and you like to learn and improve you'll be right at home here with with us now. Part Two with Jack Barsky. We are back with Jack Barsky author of deep undercover my secret life and tangled allegiances as a KGB spy by in America. If you haven't heard part one go back now and listen you don't WanNa miss that and you're depriving yourself of an amazing story. Says one of my favorite the episodes of all time last time we were here. KGB's by Jack Barsky had left his family in east. Germany gotten schooled in Moscow and how to be an American or act like an American. He's just landed in Chicago. Stolen the identity of a deceased American child in order to pose as an American now in part to. We're going to learn how how he assimilated to American culture and speech how he managed to fool everyone his family his friends his work his frigging wife and kids into believing his identity as well as how Jackson double life started to wear away at him. And how the allure of communism started to wane in why he decided to stay and become a real American and as well as how he shook his KGB handlers in the Soviet Union got him off his back but of course once past always comes back to haunt us. And we'll hear about that as well. Well right here on the Jordan Harbinger show. If you WANNA know high managed to book all these amazing people about networking and tiny habits and consistency six minute networking. It's free Jordan harbinger dot com slash. Course go check it out. By the way most of the guests on the show they subscribe to the course and the newsletter. Come join us. You'll be in great company. Okay here's Park You with Jack. Barsky I WANNA know is it not also applicable to communism in fact to me this sounds like the motto for Communism Awesome. It's too good to be true. So it's not true yeah except under communism. They won so many opportunities to be taken for a fool. You were taken for full as far as your entire way of life was concerned but there weren't any shady operators. That could come up to sell you. Something that was so special a showdown as many there were some and by the way even capitalism. You know I know people with WHO I can do. Business on handshake. For instance by publisher if this were Society I would do another book just based on a handshake but in New York City. It's not very likely that you find white people like that out in public. Who Promise you a great deal definitely not what were some of the initial differences you saw between living and capitalism in New York capitalism H. Q. Versus under communism? There must have been some things where you holy cow. I really miss this about Communist society or this is so different that that sticks out right away to be honest I did vis anything. I really didn't miss. Anything would be more of a WHO. Who Am I missed was friends not so much family friends? Mike German wife but as far as way of life there was nothing to miss. I didn't even being a chemistry. Professor is one word supermarket the variety of food that you could bet there was astounding. The other thing I missed was German food. It was quite indicative when I had my first real apartment with a little kitchen. The first meal was boiled potatoes. Man We have those despoiled potatoes and butter. Now you got a job as a bike messenger and you're making deliveries all over the city. You once made a delivery from Russian tea room to Dustin Hoffman. The Dustin Hoffman. No that he came face to face with KGB spy of course not any by the way he was not highly regarded by us. He didn't tip. I was very cheap cheap. The Russian tea room was his favorite restaurant and he wasn't a hospital. I don't know what the reason was. That's incredible that's so funny. Doesn't often multimillionaire doesn't tip got got his food delivered by the KGB. So did Jacqueline Onassis. I never got to see her but I had a carpet. Sample delivery So there was some tenuous touch coins between the KGB and so rather famous people but they didn't amount to anything and you get married in Nineteen naty actually and you have a kid with girl. Linda how do you compartmentalize your two identities at this point. Right you've got spy mode and then you've got Jack Barsky American guy with a wife a kid mode. Does that not 'cause you just ridiculous amounts of stress and so when you ask the question how I can't add to but I did. It's really odd. This is one of the things that I had to really analyze. Whether that was true which nowadays I can say with some confidence that I had manufactured annual factored adult personality to some degree not fully and that was really clear about six years into my career. Here's an agent. So every two years I would go back and spend time with Kalinda that point my son. It was great to be home with great to meet my wife. If wise still loved very much my son have driven food drink. A lot of good beer felt like home termine again and so. This is what happened happened when I went back to the United States and I usually would not arrive in New York. City usually was a different airport so as to not run into people that know me as Oh had wait a minute you come from Europe. 'cause I was traveling on a different David false passport. So let's say I would touch down in Washington. DC or in. Boston get off the plane late night here. American English will be home because I already had the start of a good life. I started a career as a program on that work for Metlife I love. I love my team. I loved what I was doing. A had become so accustomed to the American way of life. Clearly not enough to ultimately stay here. Some people misunderstood understood that because I loved the American way of life of lease nice date was Chelsea my daughter but this certainly helped to a degree because I had Americanized to a large extent already after six years. Tell us about the process of Americanization. He started working at metlife. You make friends with this guy. I Patrick Year Insurance Job essentially starts to change your ideology. Can you walk us through that how that happened as I say. The book is one of the most evil entities entities that of capitalism to us as we were told in East Germany in those days. What the insurance companies? I had no idea why they would. Zero in on insurance companies was banks insurance. The company's Wall Street these days epitome of Capitals Evil. Greedy money quarters and people played others first of all. I spent three years in college the United States and that was interesting but at that point I still didn't know what it was like to be at work as an American I got my first job in an insurance company. I like the work. I mean programming for the first time in many years my brain got engaged again. I was allowed to do logic. I was allowed to create eight and then I met so many smart people and they were all really good people. They became friends. The other thing is metlife. In those days was a mutual company knows that but in those days mutual companies were extremely paternalistic. They didn't pay that. Well but they treated you really well D- Untold Compact was. When you find employment there you have a job for life and you will retire with a Golden Watch a great pension and then between you have dot security at metlife even gave us free breakfast lunch dinner if you care to eat three times out of their kitchen so that was completely contrary to what we we were told by then about the evil of the insurance companies on top of it? You know my bosses for all nice and he and I couldn't find anybody evil eye nude sort of that. There were some and they will probably in government in the highest level of American industry but at least down at the level of the work of be. I didn't feel exploited. That was a big change in my fundamental ideology and at that point I had shifted from being an ardent communist this to sort of becoming a socialist not too far away from where Bernie Sanders is. Nowadays that's interesting so you sort of shift from this hardcore communism. Awesome to all right. Let's just make things more fair for everyone. Like you mentioned Bernie Sanders. More fair sure. Capitalism is not a bad thing because it creates. Well we just WANNA make sure so. You know it's more evenly distributed. And interestingly enough there was a street that became pretty strong in eastern European Communist. Party's was called in convergence. Theory by which capitalism and Communism was on a path to converge becomes some kind of a happy socialist kind of conglomerate and this was actually also that had infiltrated the KGB. Because one of my handlers actually volunteered that to me without me even talking about it he says. Oh by the way CONVERSI- series words at and that's Gorbachev Wow and this ultimately how the Soviet Union eventually disappeared softened softened. It became very soft in its ideology and became therefore very vulnerable to to be over with. Now you started to feel at some point like spying was actually getting in the way of your job which I thought was funny. If you have friends who work in information technology you probably know what I'm talking about us. Worker bees who operated computers and computer systems often on call twenty four seven. A desire to do a good job of my competitive spirit was was focused on doing a great job for the company that started paying me very well and that included over time weekend word late night word night calls and all that and then I had to do. There's other stuff you know and when I talk about this other stuff there was tipping point. It would not at the beginning but when I started kicking in and became a really valuable contributor. It took about two two years when I knew that I was really good and I was appreciated by my bosses. That's when my focus shifted towards doing a good job for mid life rather than the KGB. Not Be and it became a nuisance. The communication as well as surveillance detection all this kind of stuff takes a lot of time in takes phenomenal amount of time. So what we're join US talking back and forth the information that I just give you for me to actually hand that amount of inflammation to the Russians. I would have to write it down. Take a picture. Put an undeveloped film into a container. Ask for a dead drop operation. Make sure that I'm not being followed. Dropped his thing some place and wait great to see that the person actually picked it off and as a sign some place that they picked it up the whole operation end-to-end not real time but end to end would take a are we to all kinds of activity in between that interfered with my real job so to speak so funny sitting there doing the insurance thing programming something something that you thought would be a aside cover and now they're saying hey we need a full report and he thinking these guys what a pain. It's so funny they're communicating with you. On the shortwave. By the way they're communicating with you. On the shortwave radio. Right how is it done. What are they saying? Because they're obviously not saying. Hey come in Jack. Barsky spy for the Soviet Union. What are you listening for on this radio? If you watch the Americans Americans. I saw this one scene where they were actually listen to spoken digits. Five six four eight. Interestingly enough there seems to be an international national standard when it comes to encryption there's always a set of five digits so whatever is transmitted as in digital format and there's five groups of five Kohout is is used by the CIA was use the KGB has probably used by everybody. I don't know why but there may be a good reason to have these of five so no I would get digits transmitted as a write in the book that started in never changed. It was nine forty on a Thursday night just prior to nine forty four about tweet tweet minutes and I know the frequency tune into but in case to make sure that I truly find it there was a signal that had three letters or digits that indicated that the transmission was for me and then the whole thing started and sometimes it was pretty long. Sometimes it took a good hour to actually listen to the the whole thing in write it down and then took another three to four hours to decrypt this thing. And when I got really mad was when at the very beginning of this radio Graham I get something like congratulations comrade Blah Blah Blah on the international workers. Day You may I. I don't think the stuff that's clearly. That's a bureaucrat. Writing this in four minutes and then they don't realize it takes four hours to do. It was a bureaucrat. It was an ideologue as somebody who didn't think. Thank boxer couldn't empathize with what it was like to be me. Jeez yeah never was in your shoes because I'm thinking like look. This is shortly radio. Obviously anyone can hear that but it's encrypted and I'm wondering if it's just random letters and numbers because when I was a kid I would go up north and be stuck in this dumb cottage and so we had a short wave. Radio was old is probably from the sixties or seventies so. I'm a kid in the eighties and I'm listening to this and I'm here in other languages. I'm just wondering. Is there any chance at all that I heard something that was intended for us five because the eleven year old alden me is extremely stoked at the idea that I might have heard something like that as a kid. Oh as a very good chance that you heard something that was encrypted. No doubt I mean first of all. It isn't just undercover agents. Agency's do other agents that need to get a quick message in this. The quickest way of transmitting something and you transmit encode even as we speak. I guarantee you if you uh-huh traverse the short waves you will hear digits being transmitted that are meant for somebody that is doing something that is not entirely legal in the place where he's doing a while. Yeah because of course people think oh you just use the Internet for that you could but was shortwave. It's broadcasted you can never pinpoint the receiver. which is the point right? That's one thing that's correct. You don't know the general direction guarantee you the NSA new there's a guy you're someplace in the northeast who's getting this every week. But that's all they knew there was no way that they could trace it back to be. They could probably trace it back to where it originated. But I don't know if possible with short with on the the Internet there's all kinds of things shortwave still does break down. The still has problems. At least as a fallback shortwave. I guarantee is still being used interesting using. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger. Show with our guest. Jack Barsky. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by hostgator. It's eleven o'clock. Do you know where your website is. 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It's just means that you get all the latest episodes downloaded automatically to your podcast player. So you don't miss a single thing thing and now back to our show with Jack Barsky. How did you flip eventually? Essentially becoming full American. I know they tried to call you home. Can you take us through that. There was never a written plan for how long I was going to be the United States. It was all verbal in it was okay go back for another two years. Go back for another two years. Sort of the unspoken term was GonNa do it for about route ten years. Then you come home with do something else. So I wasn't my tenth year at that time I had two families might Drummond family and I had married a young lady who was originally from South America. We had a child together. Something happened and neither the FBI have a clue. Why the Soviets at that point so that might cover was about to be blown in? I am absolutely convinced that they were sincere. In their belief they called me back and they called. Hold me back as an emergency departure. That could have been a ruse right because they've done this in the past. Who called back an agent and as soon as stage depth on Soviet soil? They are you're jailed or even executed now that the execution team was in the past but Stalin did a Lotta even after Stalin. Some of that happened when they would call back ages. Listen and they know that there was something wrong with that I listen come back you endanger they go back and boom. That's what the danger was. I know that this was not the case with me because I was in very good standing joining in the fact that they followed my requested. The honor my request to give the money. That wasn't my account to my Drummond. Wife indicates to me that I was okay with them for some reason they thought somebody knew about me on. My caller was about to be blown which I didn't believe. I had no indication that somebody was focusing on me but you never know. I was now in moral dilemma and the moral dilemma was. Can I leave this. Eighteen month. Old Girl to fend for herself with the mother who who didn't have much of an education. She came from a very poor country in south. America and Chelsea daughter's name would have grown up most likely and then some kind of poverty. That was the rational thinking but you know this is also when you are there at birth anew watched him grow for father it takes awhile to bond with the child and I had really bonded with a child for the first time that I felt. Unconditional love even when I was in love with the women in Germany that there's always an expectation of getting something back this was unconditional love and that was ultimately too strong against all the factors that spoke in favor of me. Going back can following the orders by the KGB's so I decided I would defy the men not returning. I was GONNA ask how you weigh the pros and counts but it sounds like once you've bonded with your child. The pros are stay with your child in the Khazar. Look you've got people back in Germany but you know that Chelsea needs you more than they do you from the sound of it. Well the pros going backward like purely selfish. They were in favor of going backward who was not even close. I had money saved on my county. It was a lot of money you know in those days. Sixty thousand dollars on the other side of the curtain was a fortune. The Russians had promised me a house and I was going back a hero and rejoined my family. You put on one side of the scale on the other side you have three things you got the FBI possibly chasing to me the KGB. Not being very happy with me not going back and then it was Chelsea. Wow think about that. I have in the recent past occasionally questioned my honesty with regard when I tell people what I just this told you. My honesty has to the motive. And whether uncovering something up but these are the facts. These are to stand provable. Facts because us. I know that the Russians gave my German family the money as I asked him to. So I wasn't good standing and it was a chance that the KGB the FBI would have to to make and that the KGB would not be very happy with me defying the orders to return and the only counter to all that reasoning was my love with Chelsea. This is align. That's used very often very often unthinkingly but to love conquers all prove that I would imagine I mean look the KGB wants to kill you the FBI if they can find you put you in prison probably for the rest of your life maybe not for the rest of your life but they certainly would send you back to Russia where the KGB would probably jail or oh kill you. How did you get away with that? You had an encounter with the KGB at one point before you're kind of blowing them off right. Can you tell us about that. y'All took me a while either. Just like when when you have a really really hard decision to make life. Do you have two alternatives and neither one is really that great so you kick the can down the road until there's a wall at the end of the road and you can't kick it anymore because if you do it converted back to a hits you in the face so that's what happened. I was stalling. The Soviets is like pretending that I didn't get their message. And there's all kinds of reasons why you might not get their message. One of them would be. The radio is broken. or The shortwave. Wave reception was awful or I was sick for a while as possible so I bought myself time for several weeks and then one day they put an end to dead Ed and that they send one of their residents agents to actually tell me what the orders were and he said to me. You've gotta come home or else few dead. The reason that they knew was I had to give him the route by which I go to work so they know exactly how I would go to work every day. And that's where he caught me on the subway platform platform one early morning around six thirty in the morning and he said exactly those words and that was up to me to interpret what that meant but could have meant. You know your debt your cover's blown and he didn't use the right word or was a threat now he had to take the threat seriously because the KGB in those days did did kill. And I know that my hand was forced at that point. I knew that they knew and they knew that I knew there was no more kicking. The candidate was the proverbial wall. I I love telling that story because I think I should be in the Guinness Book of World Records. I resigned first of all. I don't know how many people resigned writing assignment with the KGB. Secondly I use secret writing. I wonder how many people in the history of man go to resignation letter in secret writing probably anyway. I wrote them this letter. I understand Dan. You want me to come back. And I'm not coming because I have contracted aids and this is the only place in the world where I could get treatment. Sorry I will not defect. I will not betrayal secrets and please give the money on my account too much family. Wow and of course you didn't have as you just thought I'm going to get these guys off my back by telling him might have disease. They don't want in their country. Yeah and I made a pretty believable I even the virus back to somebody had profiled previously. So they knew a name came from whom I got the AIDS virus because I told him that she had a previous boyfriend. who was a drug addict and she caught it? Bingo and AIDS was really the really scary thought fall of us but even more so behind the iron curtain because Russian Soviet's communists new age was indicative of the downfall of Western society because the immorality in the West so at work. It's incredible and they just left you alone after that and then now everyone everyone to the outside of you. Nothing has changed but in your mind. You've just left behind the KGB Soviet Union East Germany unfortunately your your family and friends and wife and son also in Germany memorial than your mother. He left behind your mother. But you've gained your American family and ostensibly you've gained your freedom and finally in the freedom thing grew on me very slowly. By the time I made the decision I sort of like really narrowed mile horizon. How was out of the spy game? I was off the stage of the international scene and I was just going to dedicate my life to who my family and so when my American wife suggested that maybe we should look into buying a home. I got serious by the way. I also signed up for four one K.. Hey which hasn't done before another sign that something was a little odd about this fellow. You know why doesn't he sign up for free money. Well I know I couldn't get with me I. I signed up for that and I discussed with my wife to have another child. We moved to a northern suburb of New York and within the birds. Four or five months my son was born and so he The perfect American family husband with a good job pretty lengthy commuted Nice House. Two children career opportunities career was going well and that is why I was for a while. I didn't want to hear anything about ideology the world politics and so forth but when the Internet allowed to do searches I started poking around and I started looking obviously the wall. Come down a year. After I resigned I started in trying to figure out what was East Germany. Actually all about and there's enough truly authentic information to be found about East Germany. Because of the way that it fell I was very much disabuse of any residual idea that we were actually doing the right thing. We just had the wrong leaders. And so that's why I was at until the FBI. Caught up with me. And then I had to face my past and really figure out who who am I it. How do I relate to this country that I'm living? Yeah I wonder what did you think when the Berlin Wall fell. And what was the most shocking thing you learned about your former government after finding reunited Germany and having access to things that actually happened in East Germany when you were growing up their own when the wall came him down I watched it. As if it didn't generate emotional response had no impact on my life because I knew I would never go back to Germany. Germany might passport. Application was denied twice or at least I thought the second wasn't denied but I never got the passport. I don't know what happened was stolen or lost in the mail but I didn't WANNA go anywhere new State Department again to not risk being detected as an illegal still so I looked at this and I was like interesting getting waters too bad and that was the end of that but as I said when I started doing my research that one thing that was just like hit me over. The head was the pervasive surveillance. Elon's of East German citizens by the Stasi well depicted in the movie. The lives of others. I had no idea as a matter of fact when I live. There studied there and briefly worked there. I was not aware of anybody who was a victim of Stasi ECHINACEA's or anybody who did did that kind of war to spy on their co workers family and so forth partially because I was a member of the elite and where that didn't happen happen as often but partially I didn't block we. Probably if you look fine. I was at the point where I really appreciate the level of freedom that you have in this country used. I used to have an still for the most part. How and I realized that the entire nation was suppressed from the very tall and that the whole thing was a complete lie You're listening to Jordan Harbinger. Show with our guest Jack Barsky. We'll be right back after this. This episode is sponsored in part by ziprecruiter hiring. 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Your support of our our advertisers keeps us on the air into learn more and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard so you can check out those amazing sponsors visit Jordan harbinger dot com slash deals. And and. Don't forget the worksheet for today's episode. That link is in the show notes at Jordan harbinger dot com slash podcast. And if you're listening to us in the overcast player please click that little star next to the episode. We really appreciate it. And now for the conclusion of part two with Jack Barsky. It must have at some point. Bronx you a little bit. I mean not necessarily surely the wall but looking at this and thinking like wow. I not only lived there but you worked for one of the arms. That was in part responsible for some of this stuff well to be. He quite honest. United Lisa was able to rationalize my way out of it at least partially because I never did any of that. Internal spying and you know. It's very hard to say with. I would have if I had been asked. I can't say I wouldn't have. I don't know however that doesn't let me off the hook because I still did work to enable that very regime that did that. Here's what really got me and it wasn't too long ago. I did a lot of research in preparation of writing the book as well as public. Appearances have made. There's a book that I read called Stalin's hangman and that describes the history of the KGB. I kid you not. What page after page every page there somebody who gets killed? Sometimes it's one person sometimes. It's a group sometimes. It's a mass killing literally at one point. When I was like two thirds into the book I broke down crying because I realized that? What a evil 'cause I had served even though oh it was modified moderated when I joined the KGB but it still had its roots in that very evil that was perpetrated on the Stalin and so ultimately my journey to becoming a full blooded American did not end when I got my citizenship but it ended not too long ago when I realized that in my view this country still is today the only to hope for the world to become a Better World Watson all I'm not saying a great country country period but we're sitting on a foundation which is called the constitution that gives us the best hope for everybody who wants to have a good life to have have a good life? We're not there yet. But clearly there's no other country in the world other than really small manageable countries. Who might be there? But you know this is. It's a complete flip flip-flop from where I came from a web today. Tell us how you got caught because the stories just not complete until you'd like you said had to face your past Ya. Aw I thought I was in declare. We moved from the house in the northern suburbs of New York to some place. Pennsylvania with my job worked and I had a good career. Career was doing. Well I made it up to Retro Eddie. I made six figures and I know that I would live out my life as a corporate employees would go on on vacation only within the United States because I wouldn't try to get a passport and My mind was at when one day I was stopped. The other side of a toll gate crossing the Delaware River it was initially it was a state trooper had routine stop. We would just like to check your license. Vegetation includes you step out of the car. Is the car still not having a clue what was going on and then I see out of the corner of my eye somebody approaching me from the back there. There was another vehicle parked there before I could put two and two together fellow introduce themselves Riley FBI and he showed me this badge. Look to talk with you. What do you think at that point? Let's go on through your head right then. I didn't use the word but something like this Bam I mean. It was like the floodgates floodgates opened and it was a Russia the entire collected past was descending on me. 'cause I know I was in big trouble. I had no idea how big it was but was not prepared. According to WHO is now my friend Rally I handled it pretty well. You know I could have completely collapsed. Pee My pants and you know curl up in a fetal position which didn't happen so once. They had me in their car. We drove for about a minute First Question I Asked am I under arrest and the answer was no. Why didn't know what that meant? But you know I was being detained for sure. I didn't have a choice then within another minute or so I you said so. What took you so long? I have no idea you know. This was my intrinsic sort of instinct to break the ice. I always do do that. And sometimes it doesn't work really well you you crack a joke with somebody who is like on the other side and you think it could get contentious and you could have a tough relationship. You make a joke. DOC chuckled a little bit in. I think it helped break the ice clearly. This wasn't one of those things where you mastermind situation on. Your cruel will comment collected like in a movie a hey what took you so long deep down inside you thinking. Yeah I'm GonNa play these guys know. It was instinct just to get back held. They found me. was you know another one of those one. In a billion odds there was a defector that used to work in the KGB archives who defected to MIT MIT five thirty British version of the FBI and brought with him. All Bunch of handwritten notes and amongst those nodes was a blurb that says Jack Barsky on the cover New York region. Oh man that's all. They had at the Russian agent had found a gravestone with the name of Joe Smith. They wouldn't have found me but they're not too many Barsky in this country. Wow Yeah in. One of them died as an infant and the other one. Is You hill at least in that area the same guy. It's not the same guy but it's the same name and so not finished because there's also another chain of improbabilities abilities but it finishes a lot of improbabilities in my life where you shake your head is a really that happened. And I can't claim credit for any of that. The fact that I became became public figure had nothing to do with me. It would people who knew people who knew people ultimately it started with my wife who is from Jamaica. Okay so figure this one out. It's in the book and I don't want to go too far but all these weird things that happened that you know if you WanNa make them up as literature the people say well you know. That's a novel I lived at novel. Why aren't you in jail right now? That's what people want to know. Okay you get caught by the FBI. What are you doing here? Well you need to ask the FBI was signed off by the FBI director. I can only quote the FBI. Folks will give in response to that question. And I've done a couple of public appearances assists with the JOE. Riley was deleted aged on this case. Who Actually wrote the afterward for my book and his answer was Mr Barsky was a whole lot? More valuable to US cooperating. Than in jail he would cost US money and we wouldn't have gotten out of him. What we got in? That was valuable to us. And that's the answer now. Some people don't like that answer but it is what it is. These are the facts I give an addendum to the answer. You familiar with the witness protection. WPRO yeah we don't know how many kills are in the witness protection program but I'm willing to bet you are because let's say for instance that in a situation like the mafia if you can and turned one of the guys and you can catch ten but in return you put him in a witness protection program. Give Him as long as you know that this person can could be a danger to others that happens. This is a tough choice that the legal system in this country makes all the time incredible. I mean I have no problem with it. I assume they ask you about operational procedures. They probably looked at the crimes that you have done in thought okay. So he reported on how insurance companies work in the United States. I think we can get over that in exchange for. We're looking at your crypto technology the frequencies where they talked to you other people you might know who live here with those people look like that information seems much more valuable yeah yeah operational stuff and also just the knowledge that there was no additional threat that led back to me because in those days both the FBI in the CIA was smarting because there are a couple of moles in both organizations and when they originally heard about me that I was buried deep undercover. which is a rarity to begin with? There was some thought that I might be running an agent within the United States government and knowing that I didn't that was helpful to write right sure of course they've got to explore all the stress. You mentioned that you've spoken in public with the FBI agent. Who caught you? What's that relationship like? I mean he must know a lot about you because he he studied you for months and months and months and watched you for months and months ostensibly before he caught you. What's that relationship like? Where at one point I said to him? I said you know more about me than I remember. Because the debriefing process was extremely meticulous at went into everything what I remember about childhood personality. The people that I grew up with I mean it was six weeks intense if not every night but every other night and you know they took notes that folders we got to know each truggle we played a little golf to go and then we played a lot of golf to go and he's now the Godfather for my last child. This is incredible because this is a man who if things hadn't gone so smoothly would gladly put you in jail for the rest of your life or absolutely tray. Did you back to Moscow which would have been a death sentence and now he's your daughter's Godfather and you play golf off and this is proof to me that just because a person belongs to another group that may be hostile towards to go that you belong to. That doesn't mean that they're bad. There's a a whole lot of good and people who you think are your enemies. Here's another example. I have a good friend who is my age. He spent some time in Vietnam. Active combat duty at a time died when we were protesting the war and we knew that the war was evil in war was unjust. Warren was posted. America was bad. Never mind whether the war was good or bad but if they had called me into the army and possibly fight on behalf of North Vietnam I wanted to change bullet with this guy. He's a good friend. Think about attaching watching yourself to a group particularly a group that is ideologically motivated and hostile towards other groups. Most likely you're not gonNA be yourself itself. You WANNA give up part of yourself because you're now subject to judgment of Others Rupa take. That's it's one of the things I'd like to tell young people don't lose yourself. Don't lose your sense of cells as part of the group. Don't ever forget who you are interesting advice coming from somebody who's been many people that was probably one of the most stupid could come in so many of us given the made me laugh. You're right but so what else is new. You know my life has been a set of contradictions. Here's another one you caught me. uh-huh now coming from the inside. What do you think about Putin former? KGB being the head of modern Russia is all this series of educated indicated guesses. Then you draw a conclusion. There's no doubt that the ranks of the KGB during the time of the Soviet Union was populated by the elite of Soviet society. They recruited from the top universities. At a lot of these jobs were coveted jobs particularly the ones that allowed you to travel so Putin was part of that elite he actually resigned from the KGB but that was after the Soviet Union collapsed before four the KGB was officially dissolved than he started a political career now when the Soviet Union collapsed the wealth of the country both material wealth as well as power was distributed in some way and the Winston had a significant advantage. Were the elite. The elite were a lot of them will KGB and they wound up getting a big piece of the pie both as became the guards super rich people or became prominent politicians and who beat all of those in fighters and successful people out or the top job. Lot Of totent- now that tells you one thing. Don't ever underestimate him. Don't ever think he's your friend. Don't ever trust what he's saying because he's all about himself. I cannot say anything else because I don't know this guy very few people do yeah well he was. KGB Anyway stationed in East Germany so maybe did cross paths with them. You never know. I know he was struggling. Not Too far away. I grew up but that was the same time I was here. So we didn't cross paths Maybe a friend of mine who met him in some way who knows who knows. Wow this is phenomenal jack. Thank you so so much Zaza on Ganim mm-hmm. This was phenomenal. Such a big. Thank you to Jack Barsky. The book title is deep undercover. My secret life entangled allegiances as a KGB spy in America. I've actually kept in touch with Jack after all these years. No surprise this former. KGB spy turned American in is a great communicator and great at keeping in touch links to everything for him. We'll be in the show notes. There are also worksheets for each episode including this one at Jordan harbinger dot com in the show notes. And we've got transcripts for each episode. Those can be found in the show notes as well. We're teaching you how to connect with great people manage relationships. That's our six minute networking course. That is a Mandatory skill set for any spy aspiring or otherwise Jordan harbinger dot com slash courses. Where that is don't do later? Jack Barsky didn't procrastinate. Why should you Jordan harbinger dot com slash course by the way most of the guests here on the show they subscribe to the course and the newsletters? Come join us and you'LL BE SMART Company. Speaking speaking of building relationships you can always reach out and or follow me on social. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both twitter and instagram. This show is created in association with podcast. One this episode was produced by Gen. Harbinger Jason to Filipo edited by J Sanderson. Show notes and worksheets by Robert. Fogerty Music Evan Viola. I'm your host Jordan Harbinger. Sure our advice and opinions and those of our guests are their own so in other words you know I'm not recommending you become. KGB's by. I might be a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer. I think anyone slur or otherwise might advise against spying for the Soviet Union. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show and remember we rise by lifting others the fee for the shows that you share it with friends. That's how we grow this thing alright. So share it when you find something interesting. This was certainly interesting. And if you don't think it was well I got nothing for you. Do Your best to apply what you here on the show so you can live what you listen and we'll see you next time for those of you who are interested in going to prison with me February. Twenty six twenty twenty. I'm going to bring a bunch of you to an educational program for prisoners their graduation so it's a big deal for them. This is such a life changing fascinating fascinating event. I have a little bit of additional details. I'M GONNA be emailing the interest list about this. You can get on the interest list by emailing me prison at Jordan Harbinger Dot Com. It's GonNa Abi February. Twenty six near Lake Tahoe so kind of near Nevada Kinda near California. This is a unique event that hustle. Two Point Oh has never done in the past. But I've done on the prison thing before it's not weighing that registration is open right now to a limited number of people it's going to be around one thousand. We're trying to get it below that that provides a twelve twelve months. Scholarship to one. Incarcerated students enrolled in Hustle to point at high desert prison. We don't get any kickbacks. Don't worry and you're GONNA have to of course travel out there and stuff right. But I'm GonNa make this affordable you get details by emailing prison at Jordan Harbinger DOT COM and. I can't wait to meet all of you behind bars.