Blockfolio 101 w/ CEO Edward Moncada
You're welcome to crypto one the average woman's guide to cryptocurrency. This is Matthew Aron. And today, we have an amazing show. We have the most popular crypto portfolio tracking apps CEO, Mr. Edward Moncada of blocked folio an app that went from eight thousand dollars a month to millions, and we're going to tell you about how the app grew the origin story of the app the operations and some amazing details that I can't believe was shared with us on wanna one end. We get to know about Edward and his history his life and his other ventures as well. But before we get into that conversation, please, please, please. Wherever you listen to your podcast. Subscribe leaves rating a comments and share with your friends and family, so they can get their hands on content to learn about blockchain and crypto currency. And before we against the show. I also want to say thank you to Lincoln for sponsoring this episode. And like always this is not financial advice legal advice. Trading advice or personal vice now without further. Do here's by folio one a one was you after the show? Edward Moncada co founder and CEO of black folio. Welcome to crypto wanna one, sir. Thanks for having me super excited to be here. Yeah. Man. We're super excited to have you here as well. What we want to do today is Blake always want to get to know, you who are you who are these people in the space that are helping drive it forward. Everybody has their peace. You know, there's podcasters Pugh who makes changes as people who do mining. But you have the most popular crypto portfolio app out there right now. And we want to know about who the person that made that we want to know about the app, we want to know about the future of the app, and well, I want to know about how you started this business in the space, and then maybe a little bit about general questions. What do you think, sir? Sounds good debate. Always happy to share awesome. Awesome, sir. Tell us a little bit about yourself. All right, man. Name is Edward Moncada. I am Bolivian binationally. I guess I'm technically I was born in the US, but my both my parents are Bolivia in. So I guess I kind of identify what that I grew up in Oklahoma, Tulsa, Oklahoma of all places was always kind of a rebellious kid loved skateboarding. Love things that we're a bit counterculture came out to California to study engineering at UC Berkeley stuck around actually after UC Berkeley, help startup music internet company in the bay area. And then. A lot of people don't know. This about me, I played poker professionally from two thousand one until about two thousand ten I would say, and then a, you know, found my way into bitcoin a little bit after that found a lot of the other coins or the other alternative cryptocurrencies after that started a invest in a missus probably in the late two thousand thirteen early two thousand fourteen. Been in the crypto space ever sounds right on right on. So I think one more thing that you didn't touch on here. But we've talked about offline none over when he into this now, but with investing in to all coins and bitcoins and stuff like that. You were also a co founder of Dr coin which became dash is that correct about a co founder of Dr coin just to clarify on that one of the founding board members of the dash foundation. Okay. I'm sorry about that. Yeah. So basically what happened was by around maybe March or April two thousand fourteen I came across Dr coin before it rebranded to dash. And which is a great brand. By the way, Dr coins yourself horrible. She only knew all the discussions. We had behind the scenes and how how difficult it was to get everyone behind that rebrand back then at it wasn't as obvious. But anyway, so yeah, so me and about four friends invested a lot into Dr coin as crazy, man. It was like the price. I think was probably seventy two cents at the time. And so we were just trying to figure out how to how to make this thing or something and said these protocols were so there were adoption of them so much less back than the organizations that were behind them more as they were very poorly funded. It was just a completely different ball game than it is today. When you see these projects that get, you know, twenty thirty million dollars launch a protocol two totally different. However, I really believed in an-and cryptocurrencies back then I'd heard stories rumors about bit license coming on the horizon. And I was like, wow. This is going to like send a lot of the early. Libertarian adopters bitcoin like regulation is coming in. It's going to send them over to. On cryptocurrencies, maybe. And so in the early I want to say it was maybe by the summer of two thousand fourteen I knew Giancarlo at a loose acquaintanceship with him. He's a he's over a bit finance, and I approach miss it. Listen, I like to talk about getting darkwa listed on your platform and keep in mind. This is before I ever knew anybody on the Dr coin team my natural. Instinct was like how do you make this like more opted get more exposure like really advance it? Our approach wasn't by Kayla. Just put in money and let everybody else do the work. I was like let's see what we can do with it. Right. I think if you look kind of my career encrypted that sort of ended up sort of being my approach, but so we gotta listed on Phoenix. And then after that approached Evan Duffield accord developer, Dr coin on bitcoin, talk and disaster like can help you out like a want to figure out how to make this thing. You know, get get it to grow bigger. Get more adoption, you know, hopefully, go up in value in Evan. Evan. Responded to end, you know, we need developers United Anita. Lot developer talent to really build out a dark wind into this to build up the infrastructure and build up this ecosystem the way it needs to be. And so that's how we started up the foundation. I I recommend it started profound Dacian, you know, there's the bitcoin foundation. They get a lot of money through donations. Let's see if we can do the same thing with Dr coin. So we started out the dark wine foundation that's become a founding board member, and unfortunately donations didn't really come in like we'd hoped. So we came up with other solutions later on like how to build out the infrastructure, but a long story short. That's how I came to be involved in Dr coin in the early days right on right on. So you're investing in cryptocurrency. You have bitcoin. We know you have some Dr coin converted to dash really good move. Reagan move and some other all coins coming over here. And then I I assume what happened is you probably hadn't had to find a way to track. All of these investments, you made your probably use an excel sheet in these it has to be an easier way. I know this is assuming. So let me let me tell you a little bit like about the landscape back, then because all these especially I think this probably be pretty interesting for the new guys that are out now back then that made there was probably maybe between one hundred fifty to two hundred cryptocurrencies or blockchain based assets around that time, right? And they just started kind of arrived in two thousand fourteen I would even say maybe in two thousand thirteen hundred. But the thing about it was that all the portfolio tracking ups in two thousand fourteen were will all of that except for maybe like two or three. They're all bitcoin only like you just go check bitcoin prices. You can. But you're like your bitcoin position. Right. And the two or three that had other cryptocurrencies might have had like most like a dozen of that you could track. Right. So there was no. There was no portfolio tracking up out at that time that had all crypto currencies across all exchanges. And so that was pretty much it like me, and my to go founders are three co founders actually one of them left a little early though, we were investing across like a number of cryptocurrency. Is that some of these absence support we were just like, wow, we should really create an app for ourselves that could track. All crypto currencies across all exchanges. That was kind of that was sort of thing. Like that. We wanted to in the beginning. We wanted to be like the other thing too was like we want to be able to open up the app and within a split second and get see what your total portfolio balances. I would say those were the three primary things. So when you were doing this. I mean, what was your goal with with that just for personal use? Or would you actually have a plan to make a business in a company out of it? I think back than we all realized that there's a big promising future blockchain, right? Like, we understood that Blockchain's could alter how databases interacted so we had this kind of feeling that it was going to impact every industry on the planet, and we need that private Blockchain's trust less or they're going to be public Blockchain's people wanted to see we felt we we kind of envisioned this future that there were going to be tens of thousands of public Loctite NAS at two people on contract. So that was that was like a belief that was always like in the back of our head. Right. So I can't say we were like, hey, we're going to like start this, and it's going to be a huge business. We'd never even thought about. It that way. We just said, hey, we're going to build this for our selves, and sort of a backup an ice little kind of backstop is the fact that we really believe that there's going to be a lot more of these in the future. Right. And at least if we do it. Let's do it in a professional way. Right. So that if if we are right about this like wave that comes in. Then a lot of people will hopefully is it too. And that maybe we turn the turn it into something. Right. So yeah. That was that was kind of like the in the in the beginning. We were just really just trying to build something for ourselves. I'd say that was really pretty nice. When was this witch when was this? Which would you said, hey, there's actually other people using this. Maybe we have a thing here is it or was that moment. Those two thousand seventeen where we're like holy shit. There's a lot of people to download our app. January two thousand seventeen we had roughly ten thousand eight thousand monthly active users eight or ten thousand I can't remember exactly right. And keep in mind. Like, we never spent any advertisement on fully. Well, actually, I take it back. We spent three hundred dollars the first two months that we launched it back in two thousand fifteen and that was all the money I've ever spent on paid user acquisition ever for block full so far. And then all of a sudden that crazy wave of interest came in in two thousand seventeen right? And we were the only professional game in town. And we got we picked up a massive amount of market share. Then we went from like I said roughly ten thousand react to be is in January two thousand seventeen to two point two million monthly active users in January two thousand eighteen. And and we spent nothing on ads, and then next I think the time where things really started getting serious like the very I mean, this is you know, it on a fortunate thing we went through we had we had server outages. I think it was in may of two thousand seventeen I remember 'cause be the my head of business development of time, Danny Horowitz, we were at consensus New York. We were so excited to go. There. We like wanted to meet people, and like, you know, we're having so much fun with the app, and it literally we wake up that Monday to go to the conference, and as I wake up where like we look at the app, and it's like not open enough for servers are on fire. Right. You know? And it was it was kind of a letdown. I think maybe prior to that. We're like, maybe we can build a business out of this. We started seeing some growth, and then that's that's the whole reason why we decided to go to consensus and tried to like to see what was going on on the business side of crypto where we might build a take this up when you had when you had eighth. Thousand downloads a ten thousand downloads in January two thousand seventeen your service as soon weren't that comprehensive or or bigger complex. I don't know how you had it, but will your servers, and then did you make a change of wins that may fiasco happen? So I didn't I, you know, I'm not I'm not developer, Peter, my co-founder was the technical co founder, he kind of was running everything deployed the servers everything, but I can tell you this. I think our server costs were two hundred dollars a month back then and to give you an idea. Our server cost today are over one hundred thousand dollars a month. So it's tell you to give you they give you an idea of like how things have grown. So okay now, the natural next question to this is how did you mentally deal with that growth, you had eight thousand downloads and next thing, you know, not only every influence or every person that is in crypto is using your app, you have two million plus downloads a year later, and you're spending one hundred thousand dollars on servers. How did you cope as a person with that kind of money and that kind of growth, we didn't think about it? Honestly, it was always like, hey, we gotta do this. We gotta do this other thing we got to do this other thing this these people just reached out to us. They want to invest money in us like all these different things. We're going on where it was just a whirlwind. Right. And next thing, you know, we're like, oh, maybe we can run an ad on the platform. And is funny. We almost ran a marketing that for tasers. We we talked with Arthur, and Kathleen Brightman we were trying to save. We can come up deal a deal with them. You know, unfortunately, they'll never end up happening with tasers then. You know, we're thinking about how do we monetize? Right. And then we ended up doing a deal status gene of two thousand and. Seventeen denuncia deal with Kwon stamp in October of two thousand seventeen and then another deal with Leonard. And so even those things like or like, they sort of like, you know, you're just sitting in their office. When Dan they're like what else can we do with this app? Like, maybe promoting one of these ICO's is decent idea. Right. Right. And so like, I would say like the four co founders they're all really great guys like they're just solitudes. Right. And so when even when we started exploring like, you know, doing advertisements the mandate for us is like we're not going to lie. We knew that a lot of the ICO's. We're going to be really kind of like shady, right? There is easy money pollen into the market. And we were just like our big thing was like, let's just try to find. Let's try to find an ICU that if buck folio never existed, and we discovered this token that we would invest our money in it anyways that was like the kind of the kind of idea like at least them like we don't mind letting them have the opportunity to kind of advertise through our platform and. By no means where we try, and we never we never explicitly said that to anyone at the time. We were not endorsing the investment. We were just saying, hey, you can pay us have ads base the way that there's you know, banner ads all over the internet. But at the very least like we wanted to have a good conscience about it. And we're like, let's make sure that this is something that we believe in that at the very minimum, right? All these things kind of just like started happening. It's it's really a rush. It's like it's combination of like, you think like, wow, this really interesting platform with a lot of users. What can we do with it coming up with ideas, literally every day? How can we leverage our our situation here and at the same time when you start getting that kind of growth, you know, this is something you might have experienced. But like you start having a lot people come to you. And they're like presenting you with every opportunity, you can think of right. Most of aren't that great? But and then your job as a CEO becomes really to say like no to a lot of it is interesting, and you do have to say, no. I guess my deal for that question wasn't about income. And but I I understand how once things get going. You just have to keep going but opening up your pocketbook to start spending that way, especially on just one thing one hundred thousand that's the hard thing for a lot of people to grasp, and they just, you know, if it ramped up from two hundred dollars to, you know, he said a hundred thousand dollars in six months, it's like, whoa. I can't believe we're spending this kind of money is there really a future for what was happening. And that's part of the craziness, man. I mean, like if you don't really not until you go through it. Honestly, I've I've done a few startups in the past never won that ramped up so fast, and you start kind of thinking ahead a lot. You know, what's coming down the pipeline. What we need to worry about. Right. And for us. We started seeing the server bills go up, right? And actually, I would say that this server bills is what started making us realise like at different stages like we've got to raise money like the first money that we raised was in. It was probably around April two thousand seventeen and well, actually, I take that back. We we sort of pulled together between some friends like forty five thousand dollars in the very early days back in two thousand fourteen we ran the company off like forty five grand for two years three of us. Did it part time. And that was like our thing, right? Then in April our server started going up and are like holy cow medicine. Economic? But then we're, you know, you just and if our this at this rate, and so we raised I believe in it was about three hundred thousand dollars, and our our technical co founder, Peter who was at the time work in part time on buck fully OD, a engineering job in Kentucky side to quit his job and move out. And actually originally quit his job and continue to work in from Kentucky. And then to user growth kept going crazy, and it was around October that we're like, wow, we should really just talk to real venture capital firms guys that invest in startups like tech startups like this, and I've seen this growth, and we had some pretty strong relationships already in the system guys knew a lot of the people in Silicon Valley. And we just got super fortunate had to incredibly awesome venture funds that ended up investing in us. We raise three million dollars towards the end of two thousand seventeen the seed round was led by Pathfinder which is founder. Funds kind of early stage investment vehicle in Peter Teal's firm, and Peter Thiel was the first professional investor in Facebook. So is pretty we're pretty kind of honored excited to have a kind of a fund with a without recognition to get behind us. And then DC M ventures was another fund that they have a three billion in inositol under management we met with them. And and they they were both like the the vast majority of the round. And then that's kind of like, you know, like, you just keep seeing your server bills go up, and you're like, but and you kind of have to simultaneously be hiring people not only to kind of, you know, began to level up your product. But also be thinking ahead like you. You can't stop thinking ahead. Like, what's what's around the corner? Where do we need to go with us? You know, two three years out like what is where's the ecosystems going, and and try to build something that people are going to use? And so I think we've neither think about it. It's funny. I haven't really talked about this too. Much with people. But like now looking back on it. I'm like, you're literally juggling a different things at the time. Right making. What was it like making mental calculations on things that you need to do? You know, what's worth focusing on? What's worth not focusing on? What what was it that you built? I mean, like we said the huge growth you've had over the two thousand seventeen period. What what did you build? I mean in why was attractive to people was it only because it was the first or only player in the game. But I think he's probably more than that. It you had some features in there that really appealed to the crypto community. Yeah. So we were active trader, I think that was part of it. Right. Like, we were we were avid users of our product. Like, we knew what we wanted for ourselves. And so here's the thing. So like those portfolio tracking knapsack in two thousand fourteen even those I think a lot of them would have some they wouldn't take you to your to your to your total portfolio balance within a split second. Sometimes you'd have to like go through a few clicks before you even get to like your portfolio page the first page usually like show up with like bitcoins, price or something. Right. And I don't know we just had good intuition. I think. We're like, you know, what man cryptos crazy goes up not really wild. When somebody opens the app, they wanna see their total portfolio value like in a split second. Right. You combine that with like a massive bull market. And I described this, you know, to somebody else before it was like it was literally like people would open the app, and it was like pulling a slot machine wheel because we did that. Right. And that that that swipe down thing was like, the pool of the swap like, you know, forcing people to swipe down to refresh. The balance was like the pull the slot machine. Mill and it was an I honestly believed that like, you know, people are experiencing the same dopamine release when they when they were in a bull market when they opened up block folio that they do like if they go to casino and like gamble. Absolutely. And then like, even our user flow man, like there are one hundred plus portfolio, tracking apps if you look at them, they all copied our user flow. Right. Like, I said we were just kind of I think we had just had strong product instincts. I would say which is kind of fortunate. I don't think the three of us. Didn't have this career in a in product development prior wh when you were monetize in you said, I was raising you were raising funds. You went to different companies or I see owes to try to do banner ads. You know, that's pretty normal. But another normal step would be to make it a paid up. But why didn't you turn into a paid app? There's some backstory on this probably as to like the to really share why right, which let me let me go back into to like, Dr coin. And I think I got a share a little bit about dark coin to kind of really kind of to share with you how my mindset is like what kind of like maith, oh says kind of my approach to the ecosystem. So Dr coined like with this protocol we were like wanting to build it out. Like, we really believe in the technology. We thought it was going to change the world. Right. We wanted all as many people as possible to use our coin, right? And so the dark entre les known for is what's called governance and treasury system. It was like the first fully functioning, governance and treasury system in ego system. It's like voting platform coupled with. Measury now decrepit has a similar one tasers has one pivots has one icon has won a lot of protocols started kind of duplicating. What what Dr coin did? Right. And it's basically you kind of create a pool of money out of the mining reward that can be used to advance the protocol. Right. And it's a fair way to distribute like the cost of that too. All the token holders. I co originated that idea Dr was me again, Richard Anderson, who's a friend of mine who's a big dark on holder and Evan and Fernando who's a CMO over there. And basically, I would say that that entire kind of concept came out of us, and it's really about advancing the protocol in a fair way. Right. So that was always like kind of art approach to things like how do we push the ecosystem had we advance things had. We treat our users very fairly where it's like always users. I so, you know, now you fast forward and our doing block folio, right? And we're like, hey, we're gonna do. I see. Oh. But you know, we don't really want. We want to protect our users. We don't want any of these scammy ICO's like, you know, get exposure to our users, and even then asserted realizing that like we wanted to build a product that was free for everyone to us would be like user, I than ecosystem I kind of philosophy and we would figure out ways maybe to monetize it later. But we wanted to make sure we didn't know what it was at the time. But we wanna make sure kind of thing was going to share. We weren't charging the end users coming into the space. There's two things I was kind of looking for one is like a we just want to create like this benevolent product. Right. And once you start charging the optics of your company in the narrative, it changes. Right. I mean, people see like you look at exchanges, and like, you know, what exchanges? Do you know what the businesses? It's just transaction fees. Right. Don't get me wrong. Exchanges are very valuable services for the ecosystem. Right. But there's just a different narrative between exchanges us. So I didn't know exactly where everything was going. But a lot of kind of what drives me is just intuition and. Just like, you know, it's always been strong feeling of mine. I I don't want to charge end-user less. We absolutely have to. Let's find other ways to make money. But what what's interesting, though, is that if you also look at kind of like the track record that have like moving from the days of Dr coin all the way through to today, or at least the people I get involved with the projects we do. It's general like we as a tend to get involved more with people who are like we're trying to innovate and build things and push the ecosystem Ford, they at that the bottom of it's really just like how do we get everybody to love crypto and to get excited about crypto and to use crypto like that's the primary motivation, right at Dr coin, you know, we did the government's treasury thing in a bunch of people like started doing similar things than we created block folio one hundred folio tracking apps at all have alert flow, and eventually would have talked about it. But we created signal now there's like five single competitor portfolios signal competitors out there. And so I think I think at the end of the day like, you know, I think we. Just keep trying to buildings that. We believe great for people and our great ecosystem. And now a word from our sponsor with the new year ahead. 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This year at Lincoln dot com slash crypto and give fifty dollars off your first job post. That's Lincoln dot com slash crypto to get fifty dollars off your first job post. That's Lincoln dot com slash crypto, terms and conditions apply. And now back to the show. We'll talk about those competitor is a little bit. How do you plan to keep the market share or you? Okay is the most popular app by far? I just read an article the other day that came out last month, and they're reading all the different portfolio apps some of the top ones, whereas like delta crypto compare, and they were comparing the different services that you have some have desktop services. Some you can plug in the API some like crossing between devices as you can show your portfolio on your, ipad and your phone and your computer, and all these things what plans do you have to keep your momentum in your company and the market share with all these people, you know, basically doing the five year olds playing soccer moment philosophy of I always like to use. That one is is like five years playing soccer one person kicks the ball one way in all the five year olds go chase that ball. And it seems like that's what bug folio. Did they kick the ball one way? All everybody's chasing the ball now in well later when those little five year olds is going to catch up to that ball and start kicking the ball the way that they want to unless you keep kicking that ball. Yes. I mean, like it's like you said like the analogy to kick in of all is going to be innovation. Right. And we've we've you know as long as we're I market on the things that are important for the system. You know, I think people will continue to follow think people still like find a reason to use the app, you know, I mean, I don't think people realize kind of the scale that we've gotten to like we've got over five million downloads today. And if you think about it, that's probably like what one fifth size of like coin base. And so that that alone is I can think of pretty significant, you know, something I'm pretty proud of it. I think it's pretty cool, man. And then you also have sixty thousand tokens and coins on the app, right? I just opened it yesterday onto tech everything out and six thousand I think it's sixty seven hundred dollars. Yet had seven hundred overnight. Now, we don't we don't totally it. We don't update every day. You know, it's just like I think every time it's like do probably update it. But we I mean, we have two full-time engineers at an exchange every single day will point on every single day. And that's all they do. Right. Because like I said the beginning, we're like, which one trek every coin on every exchange, but people see it within the split second right now to give you a little idea about what happened right because people often ask us like what are you going to do to compete with these other people who are doing like API integration desktop versions and things like this. So you have a little bit backstory. So really what our next in the big innovation after block fully was was like to create folios signal a communication channel directly from the token projects. And we thought that this was really important. And so keep in mind with signal we don't scrape medium post or Twitter posts, or like, you know, stuff like the these people this like we have over two hundred forty projects may be close to fifty. Now, they're logging. Into dashboard every single day and updating our users, you know, with what's going on. And the reason why they're willing to do it is because they realize our reach is so significant space, right? Where like almost an order of magnitude larger than you know, that the next top folio track inap-, I would say and so signal like we came up with the idea back in middle of two thousand seventeen and kind of watch it may of two thousand eighteen, but the reason why this is significant is because what happened was is that in January of two thousand eighteen like, the bubble burst, basically. Right. That was the beginning of the decline. I think it was like the January. And even then like as it was rampant up so aggressively. I kind of thought that like was he actually going to like I because it always does. Right. And I started thinking about it. And I was like well like we need to raise more money, even after the three million dollar round. We still had like we want. We needed a completely rebuild the app from the ground up because what Peter built in you know, like when our technical co founder when he was basically in the storm was not going to be sufficient to like continue growing as a business when you to figure out a way to get like, you know, real talent at the company, and that means that probably gonna have to another another fundraising around and. The sort of like this feels like almost rambling but like no new stories. They're interesting. I'm sorry. Still quiet because I'm just listening. You're after you raise three million dollars, right? Like there certain expectations that investors have on you. You know, you got to continue growth continue innovating continue finding ways to make your platform valuable, and that you'll be able to raise even more money later, you know, to continue to grow the business deliver great things to users. Right. So we had two choices back in December. As we were kind of exploring what we were going to do with this like three million dollars. Right. One of them is like, you know, a lot of people were demanding exchange. Integration API integration. And you started seeing a lot of the apps focus on that. I think that universe has it. A delta has kind stats might have it. There's probably like seven or eight apps out there that have it. Right. And we were already talking about exchange integration. Probably even the summer of two thousand seventeen so but by the time, the it it will where we had the money, and we we were able. You know, we're like, well, we can make this decision. We can actually go after this. Now, we realize that the problem is is that exchange. Integration is only gonna service like most active traders like the power traders. Right. They're the ones that are like manually inputting like that that that suffer from having to manually input trades into block folio. Right. And and so it's like, do you really wanna like shift a lot of resources in the company to a feature that meant only service like five to ten percent of users may be fifteen percent, right? And at the same time, we had this idea for signal, and we're like while signals a communication platform, and, you know, those toxic growing toxic environment and slack channels all the phishing scams. All the bogus giveaways on Twitter. Right. We're like, wow. Like, a direct line of like information from the inner circle of the token teams like this, actually awesome. Like, I would love this because I've always like working. I don't have time to go all telegram channels and check on my investments, and it'd be amazing to have it like all funnel to me in you know. Personalized feed based on what I hold my portfolio. I went home for sending. So I was looking at that. And I I was I was actually one I again, I haven't opened up the app for a while because everything's done. I don't wanna see how much I'm bleeding over floor. Right. But see no have you ever thought about being a standalone at because I think this is a it is a great idea. It's kind of like the Twitter of for the companies to update their end users without all the all the bullshit ball. So before you go into that like keeping right? Like, this is like trading signal and bring in the token teams and give them the chance to communicate with our user. We're riskly connecting all the major parts of the connecting the token teams with the end users speculators with the exchanges, right? And and that takes us from going from just being an app, just connecting the speculators with price information to be an actual network. And when you create an actual network that does a couple of things right at it. Allows investors to like see how you're going to create value for your company. Right. That's one of the things. So and the other thing too is it really differentiated us in the market. I mean at that time. I mean, we're the first ones to do this all of a sudden like we're going to bear market. And in the middle of a bear market. We ended up having a pretty significant series Aarau nd and it was because investors were excited about. The fact like not all there were with the first like really heavily adopted portfolio tracking. Now, we created this platform that's going to be extremely valuable potentially ecosystem. But the reason why I think it's going to be really valuable is because I think there's going to be a lot of really neat features that we can provide token teams that are going to help them service their token economy right over time and an anything, you know, we're still studying in talking to token teams eat what they want. But we have some interesting ideas that will be pushing out into the ecosystem probably over the course of the next year or two I think it's totally valuable because I mean, how would we do it? Now, we either go to their their telegram channels like are slack, which is a bunch of gibberish in. And you just want to deal with Sifton's control information, you go to the reds to see who's updating about the tokens or the company's progress, which is a lot of BS on their from all those users. And where would we go to Twitter their personal Twitter, easy has pretty good updates? But then again, you have to go to each individual token and open up there. Hitter to see what's going on. Okay. We'll get my perks. Leo. What do you? What do? I have. Well, let's go to whatever X Y O. And in check what they're doing. And what have you, and it's just time consuming. This is amazing. I mean, it's it's funny. It's like it's like you just sort of describe similarities to the beginning of like one. We created fuller you'd have to eat exchange have a spreadsheet figure out. What's going on is just a pain? Right. And that's the thing is I think we've we've had pretty good, you know, instincts on like, what are the most painful things that people are experiencing that like how can we leverage our platform to kind of help that out. Right. And so also keep in mind, like we're very like, I said, our product sensibilities seemed to have been like, you know, on point. You know, we we I believe like, you know, this is insane. And like we in bear markets people open up the app six times a day and bull markets. People are open it up like fifteen times a day, our average daily, active user, right? So I think I think one of the other things too is that this is part of the reason why we didn't go way heavy into like all the traitor. Focus features just yet. I mean, we're eventually going to continue like deliver a lot of things that that the traders want, right. The part of it is to is like we wanna make an app that's like easy for the new. Be to come in. And really kind of understand what's going on and get like a good experience about it and have an introduction to cryptocurrencies. Right. Because those are the people that we need coming into the market, right? One of the real problems that we need to find ways to push option. We didn't want to create an app that was like really scary. What does the data that you see because you just said like, oh, fifteen active users are per day in a bull and six and a bear. What does the other day to tell you about the investors in the crypto space? We look at the same like general analytics that that. I'm sure like every basically mobile app that exists look at look at like some aggregated data. And also I want to say for the record like don't look at antibodies individual portfolio data. I know we've been accused of that in the Twitter sphere. Nothing could be further from the truth. Like it's completely against the ethos awhi- joined this ecosystem to begin with. Right. But I'll tell you what's going on. Right now is like everyone's suffering. Our monthly active users have shrunken since January. I would say if you were. To chart it at probably not that far off from like the front like if you were to bitcoin, right? It shouldn't be surprising in any way in bear markets. Nobody wants to look at how much losing right now able you track. Your crypto one ones listenership from January to know. It is one hundred percent correlated with pig going price. It's it's insane. However, it is amazing. Right. Is a major. However, there there was a level off around eight thousand other bitcoin. So when it went down to thirty five there wasn't a change in our listenership, which is good. But yeah, there's there's a stabilization point. Yeah. I think I think a certain point everything kind of levels off for maybe some of these services. You know, there's a baseline where people are still using it. It's like in the beginning. It's like the fat is getting trimmed away. Right. And as a certain point, you're just like going into the muscle and the bone. It's just like it's not it's not really it's much tougher to get into. It's not really going away. I don't know maybe that's a bad analogy. But we we're gonna roll with it. It's. In there. I was just going to say like at baby we're just into the die hards that are the holders that just believe in it so much just not letting go the app, they're not let go they're going to still continue. Listen to the podcast. And even though the price is going down there. Just like, you know, I don't know it's hard to say before it touches some general questions. I think that your story and your journey with. This is quite unique. I think that your insights and your intuition of developing your product to keep a head of the space in with the end user and understand what they want is quite insightful for entrepreneurs out there or innovators or whoever it might be in the crypto space right now with small businesses that wished they had kind of growth you had and are developing products. What would you tell them about looking forward to two thousand nineteen innovation and entrepreneurship? Now. I'm not looking as the market or the or the price of the coins or the or the space, but as an individual I have a business. I'm I need to innovate. I need to look. At my end user, and I'm an entrepreneur, and I have a business in the crypto space. What would your advice be to them to continue their business to make sure that it is the best business? They can make into dozen nineteen. Okay. So I can tell you right now like certain things, right? Like, we're we're in a full on bear market. And probably if you know if I had to guess it's gonna last like a year from where we're at today, maybe like eight to twelve months, it's like, it's it's definitely feels nasty. Right. You know in a in a bear market. There's evangelism in like, you know, crypto products. There's no new entrance coming into the market. Right. Nobody's nobody's out there like bragging about bitcoin and trying to get their friends to buy it talking about like twenty percent they made last week. Right. But, but, but you know, as a company you still have to create value in. It's just a pool of people that like you're going to be able to pull in as London. And I would say I would say you gotta think outside the box, right? It's no longer about like, you know, letting them. Come to you. Now, it's going to be about like, you know, creative partnerships probably, you know, alignments making sure that you're, you know, you you find other other products in space that you know, you lied while with maybe I don't know I'm fat guess, so these these are these are things. You know, that's easier said than done to you know, what I mean? Because the other the other thing too is like. There's shady businesses out there too. Right. So you got to be really careful about your reputation who your line yourself with. So things like that. What do you think of the crypto space in general these days? Maybe you think that it is are you motivated, are you inspired. Are you bullish on the future of the crypto space? Of course, you might have to say, yes because you have a portfolio. But yet. No, I mean, do it always tell you the truth. I don't care if I have a portfolio tracking or not I consider even if it's like, you know, but I think all the quick buck artists or they've disappeared their out so fast. Right. And now it's like back to route, man. Like, I I was in crypto the bear market a two thousand fifteen it was so different back. Then I mean, like I watched a ton of LA crypto companies just like go up in smoke and very few the made it through to the next bull market because none of them anticipated. How long the bear market was going to be right? And that's kind of one of the things. I would say is like, you know, the bear markets always going to be worse than you think. It is. Right. Maybe that's just my personal perspective on it. But I didn't think it was gonna last as long as it didn't do doesn't fifteen in it did. But I think there's gonna be a Aww shit Coutts Bill protocols to go up in smoke. A lot of teams that don't have. Of the capital, but they need to sustain through the bear market. There were unfortunately, a lot of these protocols that raise money that that kept it in east or bitcoin, right, which was really bad move another. They're going they're going to they're going to get squeezed as well. And I think they're probably some pretty wise. Once I even like status who you know, they they raised one hundred million back in in that June ICO that we we did parking in partnership with him. I believe they disclosed that they'd like, you know, turn something like forty percent of that in the which is really smart move. Right. So I think I think I think it's gonna be really interesting your head. I think you're gonna start seeing a lot of value shopping. A lot of people that are desperate a lot of mergers and acquisitions people can like by crypto companies for cheap consolidation in the industry because there's so much professional money, and they want to make sure that you know, at least something a salvaged. Yes. I think it'll be interesting to happens over the next year. I would actually not be surprised if we see like protocol mergers. Like hostile takeovers, some protocols to different interesting stuff. I think is going to happen. I think I think we're just starting to like touch on it like, I think, you know, consensus just laid off fifteen percent of their staff, and I think that was really surprised that a lot of people. So you're gonna start seeing more and more stories like this will be very interesting to next year plays out. I'll tell you from a from my point of view is like we operate in over here in the past year. It's honestly, I I didn't know how to manage myself either. Like, you didn't expect to be, you know, getting nothing nine hundred bucks and think like okay now, you have a couple edits of for the podcast under your belt because you have nine hundred dollars enough. And then by the the month you nine hundred of is turned into four hundred seventy eight here's like what the hell happened. And it was pretty capital is just slipping away. And it's not really honestly, it's there's still no really practical way to use cryptocurrency as a business facilitator in stable coins are not the easiest answer for anybody. Either. So it's yeah. Sticky situation for these people who rose raise money in f-. I mean, what do you do? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like we gotta wait out like till the next boron happens right in the next bull run. It's going to it's going to have higher standards than the prior role runs like the one in two thousand thirteen it was sort of like the fantasy of what bitcoin could be. And that's why you know, the run-up happen to like thirteen hundred dollars like, right? But that fantasy hasn't become a reality. Right. It's two thousand eighteen and still can't go to my pizza place down the street and buy a slice of pizza with bitcoin. Yeah. Right. I don't think it's ever going to happen. Honestly, but five years later it, and then you had like a real use case theory of and kind of like, the fundraising do an ICO's with him is actually more efficient and fair than traditional fundraising efforts are kind of like the ways that people were fundraising prior to cryptocurrencies. And you know, that obviously got squashed by a lot of the the regulatory burden that came afterwards. I it's it's still a great model. I mean just have to do a mess te'o. Right. And so yeah. People are kind of figuring work arounds. Right. But then like a I think what's going to like what we're waiting for is some application of blockchain technology that is significantly better post of blockchain that pre blockchain that has really great usability because without really great usability. It's like it's not gonna work. Just like, you know, the crypto ecosystem of the people that love this thing. Like, you need to have this thing actually, go mainstream. Right. I don't mean to put it. I put stuff in such simple terms. I'm not as articulate as as as love the other crypto elite and stuff like that. But I will say like we're waiting for that that killer. Use case that's super easy to use. That's actually easier to use them. Real world stuff that exists today had and that might take a while. I mean, crypto still honestly, very clunky. Clunky. Agreed agreed is only being in space that you're looking at right now that you respect in the crypto space that you're know your roofing forward as business as as a business over owner in the crypto space that you kind of gravitate to that person and say when this guy says something, let's pay attention. There are a couple of guys that I massively respect right? One of them's actually, really fortunate. It's one of our investors nibs Geoff Marsh Jenner, and he is a director of product revenue over tender. You know, talk about people who know product market fit right over time. He said, yeah. Oh, 'cause over his his is over tender don't tell my southern you. Other guys that I think are super smart the space that I seem to gravitate towards the writing what they're doing like another guy his name is virtual Garg at Electric Capital that used to run product of Facebook until two thousand six seems like every time the talk to him like he pretty much blows my mind like his insights, the crypto space, a he's a very data driven guy. He used run product at Facebook believe until two thousand sixteen and then let me see here who who else, you know, maybe a slightly controversial guide like he's younger kid, a main Sulejmani at spanked chain. He looks like he's working on on state channels. He's actually working on like how to make transactions much more usable like like, much better user experience just Singapore over the weekend that get sprite. He's smart is bad and like Mullah too. I mean, yeah, he has risky content. But like, it's a highly principled kid slightly twisted highly principle. Like talking to him. He's is solid guy. You know, other guys, you know, there's a tongue Hsiang out there. He rents interesting too, though, he runs a he's the product guy over to central and yet, there's always the obvious ones. Like the Tallec Joseph Poon stuff like that. Right. So. Who is there anybody that you purpose? He don't follow. I mean, I know people don't say I dislike him or I don't respect or whatever. But I think anybody who's been in the in the space for a long time. I mean, I've only been in the space for about a couple of years, and there's I was following to begin with that's dropped off. And I don't really follow much anymore because I just don't see them being relatable anymore. Is there anybody that you see in the space right now that has a big voice that you just stopped listening to trying to think I mean, like, look I'm never going to name anybody by names specifically like on this? Let's say they're definitely bad actors in the space there guys that just lead people down the wrong path. They're guys that say that they're very pro ecosystem or pro users or really supportive of the technology. But all the big issue is about making money right there. Plenty of examples. I'm sure everybody listening if they're in the space more than six months, we had never examples of probably come to mind, you know, all those guys. Fuck those guys all you're thinking about seriously. There's a lot of the most of them are disappearing right now. But yeah, I mean, it's like. I think a question I really hope a lot of times people don't say, I'm not going to name names. And then I'll have some some people do when the names that. I get often is McAfee. That guy's just saying it is it's interesting. It's almost it's almost like a cartoon character. He was he was on the show a couple of months ago, and you know, everybody's like up until that point like when when I asked that question people would say McAfee because of what he the tweets they said or got paid a half million dollars to send a tweet to Sean ICO and things like that. And then after I had him on the show, and I talked to him. I'm like, I like them. I like them. Quite back is an interesting guy. Because honestly, I think he's like sort pretty much insane. Right. And so like, he's not even like the kinda guy I'm talking about because he's so far out there. Right. Because like you're not gonna go to entertain asylum and some of these exit sane and in new like going to get mad at him. You're never gonna get mad at they'd saying guy at the San this. All right. But there guys out there who know what they're doing there'd be like super shady and like, they're only. Yeah. It's just like I mean, maybe McAfee is one of those guys. I don't know. But like, maybe he's not who knows. I don't know if it was gonna offer me a half a million dollars is in tweet. And that was my going rate. I as at this point in my life. Hell, I don't know. What's put it this way? If somebody offered you have million dollars to show something to your audience that you knew was going to make them lose money. Would you do probably not? Probably call me, and he didn't have them go. That's pretty stand up, and then I'll be broken. But you know, I mean, people don't realize it's actually like it's difficult thing to do. Especially on a bear market. You know, is there tough things. So I don't know. I think I've told my audience this many times, and I know you've you've you've come up with it because of your success with by folio, but you know, people have offered, you know, multiple bitcoins to show something or come on the show and especially during two thousand seventeen in the amount of F in bitcoin. I've could've made from having these guys on this show was wasn't sane. And you know, we never took it. But at the same time, it's one of those things is is a personal struggle that you deal with because you know, you need the money, you know, the money's right there. But you know, if you do it, not only are you going to your kind of killing a little bit of your soul, but you might lose your business because of it. It's the devil, man. I'm not religious. But in that what they talk about. Now, we at the same thing when we did that I add for status floodgates open over the course of the next twelve months, we probably got killed by herb hit hit up by. I'm not exaggerating like two hundred projects we turned down. Again. This is not exaggeration twenty million dollars in revenue, but we made the right choice. And the reason why I know we made the right choice is because we had a sterling reputation like people subconsciously knew that we weren't like selling out, and we now have like an incredible roster. Venture capital investors that are super supportive that will go to bat for us that will like they want to help us succeed. And if you look at the roster companies that these guys invest in if you're doing anything shady in any way, like they're just not gonna touch you. They see it as risk. I mean. Yes, there's a mutual aligned interest. Right. But it turned out to be the right decision. Because that's why you know. I think we managed to get some really smart people behind us out that contributed to it. And I'm sure like with you. I'm sure there were no probably specific examples where this turned out to be a good business decision as well. As a good ethical decision. Various lutely. Absolutely. I don't regret any any lost bitcoin because of those decisions. But I think that, you know, grappling with that decision at the time is really it is something that you really struggle with it. Because it is like, okay, I'm doing this to make money. I am not making money here as money. What do I do not make money continue not to make money or do? I take this money, and you really have to figure out like, you know, who you are. And what you want to do with the business in the long term grow goals because if you don't look at the long-term then. Yeah, you you lose it life throws challenges that you if they is definitely one of the, you know, the one a one is branded itself as the first offer people getting into the space. So they can hear one information from you know, amazing people like you and others to help them on their crypto investment journey. This is nothing vice but they're crypto journey. And learning about different ideologies blockchain and projects in the space and people, and you know, kind of where this whole movement is going if this was the first episode a new person was listening to coming into the space. What would Edward tell them about the space? Get ready. Get kicked the balls. So, hey, if you listen to this episode this far there, you go turn off and come back in two thousand twenty there you go. Because if you're in this face long enough, it's going to happen in Iran that I'm the one set and this because I help come up with the most used portfolio tracking up space, but like research, the tech figure out ways that you can help, you know, the projects, you know. How can how can you help make their ecosystems the better, you know, how can you help bring it option to their protocols to a bunch of homework. You know, it's not really all just about price. You know? And like, I said ironic, I say that and we hope to take fuller in a direction where people realize that, you know, you know, price tracking this one aspect of the app, they're going to be other ones that we think are going to be really valuable for everyone. And just the, you know, brace yourself for the volatility because it's I think we're still going to be a while before it goes away. And before I ask this last question of the day. I want to say thank you very much for agreeing to come on the show and talking about not only the space in general by folio and giving us an insight to well. Person that is creating a business and created a very successful business and product for the space empowering a lot of people to easily track their their holdings. Thank you. Thank you, so much Ravni on always happy to talk and share about like, you know, what we went through about folio challenges and the company had challenges ecosystems had hopefully get the word out. Get more people excited right on right on last question a half, or you, sir with resources would you like on the crypto window and Spotify playlist, and this was the one I was like stumped on because it's been so long since I listen to music, but I would say if there's one song, but like put the song on by Justice called stop. You got it. I got three songs for you. I got one for you. We'll get one one good song is better than three shitty song. So thank you very much for coming on the show, sir. Thanks so much for the time. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much for listening to this episode of crypto wanna one Edward if you're listening. Thank you very much for coming on the show into all happy new year. I hope you have a killer two thousand nineteen and remember over to YouTube crypto in a one with Matthew Aaron to hear the behind the scenes of these episodes, and I do get delayed and putting up those videos. I am very sorry. They're coming up as soon as possible in our next episode of crypto win one. We haven't ICO one episode with unity chain unity chain one one. I'm excited to hear Aaron Paul in the new year. And I know you're going to enjoy before we go apogee crypto dot com. APO GE crypto dot com. The best place for your real time. Prices. Crypto news dot com for your news. And thank you very much to Harry, foster for editing. This episode was the union future episodes happy new year.