Many of you here have delighted like we have in listening to Carl Douglas Talk. We were fascinated by him. In the OJ Simpson documentary that one espn an Oscar and since he's become sort of lawyer for the show, great talker obviously heard him recently be very strong on the subject of race. His history with civil rights and law go way back, and so what I wanted to talk to him about is sort of his career. Because it's an interesting one, he's been part of the strongest black law firm in the history of this country. One could argue and so I just. Just wanted to talk to him about that. And representing OJ Simpson and representing Michael Jackson, so we will do that in a moment, but first I want to tell you that south beach session sponsored by Ziprecruiter Ziprecruiter. You know is the smartest way to hire Thanks to Ziprecruiter for supporting everything here at Lebatardshow infringe checkout, stupidity, checkout, mystery crate Rate Subscribe Review Sarahspain. Meena Crimes Marty Smith, all parts of the Libertad and friends network, a Carl Douglas has become a friend of the show. Let's include him in on Lebatardshow friends and learn a little bit about his career. Carl Douglas, we discovered him like many of you. In the OJ Simpson documentary that is one of the finest pieces of television I ever seen, and he was almost the star of it. You can't really say he's The star. Because I guess OJ Simpson was the star, but his stories were so good and so rich and weirdly honest for a lawyer that I really enjoyed talking to him and so now I just want to talk to him. Him about other stories because he's a great storyteller, and because he doesn't mind you sort of giving you the truth behind some of what it is that he's experienced, so thank you for being on with us and I'm just going to get right to the questions. I want to hear about the night that Michael Jackson and Simpson were both calling you at the same time because they needed legal advice. Yes, December, twenty, seven, nineteen, ninety four. The trial of the century was about to start in January for some. We had taken two weeks off for Christmas holidays after picking a jury and we're GONNA start with. Heavy DNA testimony in January, so all the lawyers were, hunker down and get ready for the trial of the century for some reason Robert Shapiro and his family went to Hawaii. For those two weeks, and he checked into a hotel under an alias like Tony. Milo or something like that. And there was then behind. No one could understand how he could go on vacation during the most important two weeks before the trial that while we would learn a lot after that about just the spawning Kardashians. They live in a totally different world arrest this human being yes, that's extraordinarily bad legal judgment, but this was the guy that OJ. OJ trusted right correct. What's so there was a decision made announced to me that Johnny was gonNA become the lead lawyer. You GotTa understand that Bob. Shapiro had never really tried a murder case before Oj, Simpson so these he was commanding. It was a general commanding others into the war, but he had never been in a war before himself. Well, let's just say what it is right. He's totally overmatched as an attorney. He's the rich guy that OJ. Knows that he knows. Do I. Have it wrong. My factually wrong. You're saying that, not me. Dan was Hollywood fixer. Marlon Brando's lawyer Don amount of a deep on a good deal, but he wasn't known for being a trial lawyer, but Johnny was so December twenty seven I got a call from Oj Simpson, and he told me that he wanted me to become the coordinator of the team. that. He was going to be making a change and that Johnny was GonNa. Be The league lawyer. We all knew man. It was going to happen sooner or later, but that was the official change. Later that night. We also represent a Michael Jackson then and you gotta understand. Michael was really really paranoid and whenever Michael would call he would I use a disguised voice. Lowest Carl there. And I think yes, this is Carl. He didn't awhile. I did not know he could do a deep voice, so he was calling in disguise, he would actually call in disguise. And when you said you were, he would then change his voice. He would make me go to the very back of my house in the laundry room to the bathroom and close the door and talk with him, then even though my wife was in the far end sleeping and my five year old son was in the bit. But I had to go through my laundry room to my back bathroom and talk with him on the phone and that same day he talked with with me about his case so I was only the second person on earth. Being Johnny Cochran. Who had OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson both talking to them that same night about their case, Bro I could not sleep that entire nights. I'm wondering. How do you find? What's the back story on how you find yourself? I mean this is an uncommon path. Right? The idea that somebody in the mid nineties could go through everything America had gone through and become a black attorney, talking to Michael Jackson and OJ Simpson on the same night that to you in terms of celebrity star power like what's the path that leads to you ending up there because it's improbable, correct what people who are not? Not from Los Angeles a don't understand is Johnny Cochran was always as famous in Los Angeles before Oj, as he became nationwide after Oj when Michael Jackson I got in his problems with the first young kid, he called on Johnny Cochran when he was in Mexico. Not Knowing whether there were charges against him, because Johnny was just the man and Johnny Audio Garcetti. They were personal friends and found out there were no charges pending against Michael, and then Johnny Elizabeth Taylor's airplanes fly down to Mexico and debris Michael Jackson back from Mexico. It's funny Dan because we had to ask for my permission to represent OJ Simpson. Because Michael was our client I. And Michael was very much the brother all he needs help help out. But. We've I wanted to make sure that Michael was cool with are coming on the O.. J. Simpson, Chase What is your back story like? How do you end up and explained to me? Go back to your teenage years and explained to me how you arrive there and how improbable that path is okay, so Johnny Cochran. I'm raised from Los Angeles lives. I was to Johnny, was always the man or black Los Angeles because he represented people who were victimized by police. Came back to La after going to college at northwestern Chicago. Law Schools UC Berkeley and Berkeley and I came back to La and worked at the federal public defender's office for five years, representing people that are charged with federal crimes. Then Los Angeles was the bank robbery capital of the world, three ways and bates were on every corner. They did not have the PLEXIGLAS and the eighties. Eighty percent of the FBI was on bank robbery detail in the mid eighties. When I was there I was there for five. Five years one of my best buddies told me that Johnny Cochran of looking for a lawyer and I was someone come in and try case I can try a criminal case. And because Johnny had a criminal background, he knew I could try a civil case, and so I had that combination of US criminal background and a civil background that made it right for Michael. Jackson, and for O. J. Simpson. Could you talk to Johnny Cochran Away? A lot of the other attorneys there wouldn't dare talk to Johnny Cochran. Vote for better or for worse, I was one who always Dave Truth Dan I tell every client today that I have a condition. I suffer from terminal honesty. I will tell them what I think. Even if they may not wanna hear it man, because that's just the way I am I got a story I remember. It was in the post. OJ Simpson. Johnny Cochran was the biggest man on earth, and he was wearing a to pay for the bald spots in the center back of his head. We in the office knew it was a to pay, and it looks stupid. But. Everyone was afraid to tell Johnny dig that shit off your head. So. I gather with the staff. Is that I'M GONNA? Tell them and they said No. You will know you and I walked into his office I was the manager that first among equals of his staff. He was the lone partner in the law office of Johnny Cochran, Jr. but I was the managing lower than the firm, and I sat with them Johnny. Take that shit out your hair. It looks stupid. You are young as it is, and you don't need that. Shouldn't you're here? Because? Then? When he walked through the office, the incandescent lights shone differently in the two brave man, and it looks stupid, and I could not have Johnny Cochran my icon. My hero be made to look as stupid as it was, and it might have been maybe a week or two weeks or maybe a month. He kept that in, but because the me, he got out. Eventually. Do and he did thank you, so how about in that moment? Because that had to be a little bit jarring to hear because you reach a certain point in success Karl where people absolutely do not tell you the truth, they they. They'll let you look ridiculous because you've acquired so much success that people get afraid to tell you the real stuff. Perhaps that's who I am as a person Dan, but it reflects my love and respect for Johnny, Cochran one thing I can say about Johnny Cochran. Twelve years man and Johnny respected you one. If you can make a payroll and two, if you could try a case every year, I was there, I lost at least one case every year, and never once did. He criticized me for having lost the case because he knew you can't get a home run unless you're up there swinging the Batman, so it was my love of him. That may need tell him that. She was still been explained to me. They'll how he became an icon for you because. I don't know that the audience at large. This was a long time ago I. Don't know that the audience at large understands what Johnny Cochran was as a symbol. That is the value I think as a civil rights lawyer from Los Angeles of that Fabulous Oscar Award winning documentary, because the first four hours were nothing about. But it gave you some context of the historical connection between the American community, and the LAPD here and now one Dan can ever appreciate how the OJ Simpson verdict was. Without understanding that context and from young twenty seven year old lawyer. Family representing, you'll love back in the early eighties. Johnny became a symbol of the fight. Against All that was wrong in Los Angeles when you hear about the problems of black and Brown people and the police nationwide man. We were Ground Zero in Los Angeles for my entire life, so johnny was always the icon and the ball worked for that, which would brought the love of black and Brown people in Los Angeles? Is it fair to say that Johnny? Cochran was akin because? Because of the specific work that he was doing and shining light on that, he was essentially Al Sharpton that he was Jesse Jackson that he was park. Religious leader part legal leader part civil rights leader that he was. I mean I don't mean to turn him into a saint, because everybody is a little bit flawed, but you're talking about one of the great black leaders of all time. and. I, you do a disservice to him by comparing him to Jesse. Jackson and Al Sharpton Icee, so should I go to Martin Luther King should I go like honestly given the work that he was doing given that he's doing in the court system given that he's fighting an unjust systemic problem that not a lot of people outside of Los Angeles knew about who weren't black, and what's more, he was more than simply a civil rights icon and leader in the black community, because he joined the District Attorney's Office Win John Van De Kamp, was the DA and he was the number three man for? For three years in the District Attorney's office and while there he created the DA rollout unit were lawyers district attorney were sent on rollout to any and every officer involved shooting that was in nineteen, eighty, one, that was a ground-breaking then, and that still goes on today now across the country whenever there is an officer involved shooting. You're gonNA, have a district attorney. There somewhere close. It's GonNa. Be a whitewash. They're not gonNA find anything to charge the cops with a crime, but at least they're gonna be there and the cops know that they are there and that's something that he started erase. Of His commitment to the ideals of civil rights, and and and the plight of black and Brown people in Los Angeles and the world. Man Why do I do a disservice to him by comparing him putting him in the? Because, those were the famous black leaders of the time whether or not, they did what black folks wanted them doing whether they were good. Leaders are not as another is another matter. But why am I doing a disservice when I compare Johnny Cochran two of the most famous black leaders and civil rights that they've been. I know their history perhaps more than you or some of your listeners, and because of their history I take their. GRAVITAS in a greater context and they are not the the iconic black leaders that many may say because I know their history I appreciate what they've done. And their contribution to the SPROGOE, but their weaknesses to me overshadow my praise for their enlightenment. So did you see along the path? It go to Johnny's head. Did you see because there are certain inevitability to success and I gotta think that at. At some point, the ego ran amok there well, he always had a big ego bre Johnny Cochran live in Los, feeless, which was the exclusive white community in the seventies when nobody in black was doing it Johnny Cochran a drove a Rolls Royce in early seventies when nobody had rolls royces okay I remember after the trial within a month, we were in Miami at the Miami airport going to meet. This kid in in jail federal prison in Miami and Johnny got off the plane wearing a purple jacket walking down the center of the aisle in the Miami. Air Board a week after the verdict I this day back that one voice cell phones where? He was revelling walking bell. Now our way, no one who. The most dangerous place to be in America is between a trial lawyer and a camera. That's working less there being no now. We have massive egos man. His Swag specifically made him different for the time because the things that you're talking about their. Thick, they could not have been very common in fact I can see now where and how it is, you'd be attracted to somebody. who was that kind of showman? Johnny Cochran went to Los Angeles High School in the sixties before it was integrated. With Dustin Hoffman, he was, he went to Ucla and was a star on the court quarterback on the football team before it was fashionable, so he was always a bed of the curve man. I'm telling for him to be living Los. Angeles in the seventies and the black lawyer was so out of bounds. Lack lawyers then lived in Baldwin hills or Ladera. Heights other portions Nebraska Beverly Hills, win venture out to the hills of those feelers for him to be driving a Rolls Royce in the early Seventies. Okay, it was like the parade going through town and Johnny had this rare ability to connect with kings and poppers alike. He could go to a fancy restaurant and he go to knock us a little hole in the wall, an incompetent and eat hamburgers than have the juicer off his lips. When you say that it was inevitable that Johnny, Cochran was going to take over the Oj Simpson case. Are you saying because his merits meredith it so much more than any of the other lawyers? Are you saying that a percentage of that is because it became obvious very early that this needed to be represented by black people, because this was going to become a trial about race, or are you saying it's a mixture of the two or neither? It's a one. It became apparent as we were preparing for trial that Shapiro was behind the curve. We might have had met. I had eight or nine notebooks of reports and interviews and things, and you can tell in the meetings by asking questions where you were. And, we knew Shapiro with not up to speed. There were nine lawyers working at some point or other on on the case, all nine of US knew who the trial lawyer words. and Johnny had such charisma and such skill that it was clear he was gonna be the leader. There was not any dispute of the change when Oj chose to make the change, and it was OJ's choice. Is it at that moment that the realization dawns on everyone? Oh, this is going to be a trial about race. It's going to be large and symbolic. Or did that happen later? Did the decision on how it is to go about the defense happen later than Dan as as was reflected documentary, Shapiro had the thing about furman and raced before Johnny was ever in the case, and that's the irony man, because the DA's knew about about firms issues with race. Before we ever came in the case, and that for better or for worse, fixed the defense, you could not rightly do. Do a proper defense given that credit from the eighties where he said I was so angry at black people that I will beat them up. I want to the beliefs force. That was monitoring Evan, so you could not possibly allow that to go silent, so that stormed the defense from the very beginning, and so, how did you end up helping in? What ways did you end up helping Michael Jackson as you're going into. Your back room and he's paranoid. You gotTA. You gotTA. Have some amazing stories about how unusual. Cast Man I was really the first young African American professional that ever was around Michael Jackson, most of his advisors were Anglo and they were there, and when he brought Johnny Cochran on that was unique and unusual for him, because I was I had a unique perspective of both criminal and Civil Johnny brought me to handle the late in his case and I was. Was? Michael Jackson's lawyer off and on for ten years even after I left. Janis firm I would still advise. Michael Jackson I was involved. You remember there was a time when he was in trial in Santa Maria, and he on top of a van astor the court, and had an umbrella dancing on top of the van. I had a meeting with him after that. Michael Are you crazy? What are you doing on some van? You can't do that stuff. And because we were closed, I would like five or six years old and Michael, but we were close in age and I was my honest self. He was always surrounded by sycophants that did not want to slay the goose laying the golden egg. Oh, but he's such a child. Though wasn't. He was just a child. Never. Outlook. He never had a child then. It really was sad. He never had a childhood. From nine or ten, he was thrust into this regimented lifestyle that his father was able to create. So that they could rise to stardom so I get it, but he missed his childhood in that moment well, he spent it in his adulthood. He can remember I never felt like you say he didn't have a childhood. Okay, so he was made a business professional as a prodigy early on, but he clearly spent the next thirty years like the only way that I can explain to anybody the deviance. deviance of the charges that fell upon him is the idea that somewhere mentally he had atrophied where the only thing he could connect with in any way was kids because even seem to understand adult at all? He seemed to be somebody who was just a child, and it's no defensive. Because some of the things, he's been charged with pretty indefensible, even by your standards as someone who will defend. For reasonable and yet that's what I always assume with him that the charges are true because he had no earthly understanding of sexually how to be an adult like Egypt, had no connection point with adults. I understand your perspective. And because he was my clients, and some of my views are shaped by personal interviews and comments with him, I'm going to hold off giving Mike respected are but a lot of things. I was for example lawyer that traveled to Vegas Win. The first settlement agreement was signed by him. I was the witness he was at a bungalow in Vegas and I'm not gonNA close. They're getting us. Is Garowe. In. Could. Open the door he comes in, and my goal was a musical genius. He was not the most area night. He did not have the greatest attention span. He had he had a security guard for twenty years, Bill. and Bill would tell us okay guys when you're meeting when Michael Starts Humming, then you know it's time to stop the meeting. and. We would. We would have a meeting me. Johnny Howard Weitzman we would fly to never land from the Santa Monica Airport and helicopter the coolest thing in the world Kobe my heart's with you, but it's a cool thing in the world flying helicopters to a meeting. And, we Li- there about forty minutes done to Ohi, meet with Michael in one of his officers, that at the ranch and talk about the case, and after about two hundred eight twenty baht minutes, he was starting. And you knew it was about he was losing attention span. It was time to go then, but he did have a unique life. It was not enjoyable. Be careful what you ask for. He was a prisoner of his success. He was a he was a prisoner. He was unhappy like that. That had to be clear right because. There was no freedom in the way that he was living. It sort of the what you're saying. It's the Gypsy curse. May you get everything in life that you wish for because it's a curse, but but Dan I. Don't know if he was unhappy because everything he wanted he was able to obtain. So I don't know the. From my perspective, it wasn't fun, but I can't say he was unhappy. So, what else do you have I? Don't want to save it for another podcast. I want to I want to talk about the the ways in which you found him. And Unusual I went to trump towers and met with him at the Penthouse in the nineties I. Donald Donald Apartment was across the hall I was told he had the most fabulous. Fifth Avenue from. Top fabulous view. He showed me a picture of his children that he had in a book there and I had a question of whether there was a drop of black blood in the children. And I said my go cut a move and he would. And cut a move. That Michael Play something on the baby grand and he would just go to baby man and. The, he was at once a music code. G Savant. Survive and you can understand that moment his genius. Very few people get access to that right. Very few people never mind he. It was just he and I, and the apart I saw another person there, and it's a ridiculous apartment. The apartment. His whole life was absurd in like you saw the spending spree that. That channel ABC. Televised of him spending like three million dollars in a column minutes in Las Vegas it was his house, and Neverland was the God es over sized statues. Fountain caricatures. All kinds of shit in there and it was ridiculous all of that I'm sure very very expensive. You know, but like in video I buy that and that and that and that that and that and that is good. It was oversized gold. Plated Shit, it was. So, you're so you're. Did you go on any of those? Where you around for any of those spending sprees? Because I did want to ask and this is an indelicate question, but when you say OJ Simpson had nine lawyers, it does make me wonder what those billable hours looked like like. I don't I. Don't know if it's been reported. What his defense cost, but it had to have been. A large fortune. J Simpson is still alive. And he takes the position that the attorney client privilege remains until his last breath, and I step that okay very good, so I'm asking you not an indelicate question, an illegal one. Let me let me tell you this. The. Your listeners cannot understand how liberating it was that as a defense lawyer, you had virtually the unlimited ability to do anything needed to to defend your client and the the the lesson of the OJ Simpson trial. I say is how underfunded public defender agencies are all around the world, so that the defense cannot contest the awesome power of the state man we add some of. Of the best experts I had ever seen in my life I have been a lawyer twenty years then we would have four five investigators. Are Beck and call? That was tremendously liberating, but we were able to do that and we need to do that to contest the power of the DA's office. They had more lawyers. They had more investigators. They had more testing done. But you had unlimited resources no like. No no clear there was a budget. OJ Hat a business lawyer. Johnnie Cochran firm was underpaid. Some would say. He got a great deal for the money he spent on. Certainly, there were collateral benefits of the representation that you balance. Okay interesting, actually that's interesting, because you guys knew that handling that case and winning that case is something that sets a set sets everybody up for life for life. Okay. Yes. So of course, you can give OJ Simpson a bit of a discount. If that's the reward, because it's a trial of the century and yeah you, you give a little off the top so that you get it on the macro on the back end, but would you don't? We didn't appreciate what we I worked. At one trial for eighteen months of my life and I was primarily a civil lawyer, and during the eighteen months we would not bringing in civil cases at the same pace, so our firm suffer dramatically after o J. I had not trying a criminal case for ten years for Jason Okay I was a civil war making money. What kind of arguments would you and Johnny get into regarding these cases that we're talking about like how? How harmonious is all of that? And how contentious is it? You got one. I was always one to say my peace. And Johnny always gave me the flexibility to save my peace, and he respected my opinion case in point. Reginald Denny during the riots. The trucker who had a brick thrown on his ed K. Johnny got a call from Reginald Denny. and Johnny began representing Denny. I thought he shouldn't. Because I didn't. WanNa, suit. Thought. That wouldn't look good. And so. God? And we had a big argument about the wisdom and the Maryland, the whole permit the merits. We were an iconic rights firm, but what we decided that we're not gonNA do the brothers we sued the city of Los Angeles were failing to come to his aid. That was how we were able to use the law Ben Officially, but there was great internal strife and struggle about whether to accept that case for example. How black was the law firm? I was there twelve years we had one why lawyer for about a year and a half a former police officer. We thought that was unique. We had an interracial staff support staff. We had Asian secretaries although we were primarily primarily african-american. How unusual was that at the time? In Los Angeles and they as a plaintiff firm, I would say in Los Angeles today. There are fewer than twenty five black lawyers who make half of their money as a plaintiff, personal injury lawyer, and that's an a city of nine million most African American lawyers worked for the government's or they do defense work, because they are the criminal lawyers, because there is greater predictability in that I have to win in order to keep my doors open, so that helps that impacts. What cases I? Take how my pipeline is going. I gotTa try the case to get him to celebrate. That's why this check del for me so badly as a plaintiff lawyer, because the one thing you need is a firm trial date to get insurance companies to pay money in California. There won't be the trial for nine months three months after that. Really impacts what we can do as lawyers. What would look like second place in terms of the history of America, a law firm with this kind of black power. Law Firm where a black lawyer is empowering black people to defend black people like does this represent the strongest law firm America's no in this realm, and what to second place look like if it does. That's an interesting question. I've never been asked that question. I don't think of myself as a black lawyer who has a black firm, I am a lawyer who happens to be black who has a firm who represents people that look like me? So I have white clients. I Have Asian clients. I relish and welcome the chance to have more white plans because they get paid more money again but Carl hold on your a civil rights. Civil Rights affirm like I'm trying to figure out what else in America looked like it at the time or since. In California in Los Angeles County. There are less than. Five. African American Civil Rights plaintiff less than three aggregate american-based civil rights for my firm. The Cochran firm is still alive in Los Angeles and there and there may be. One or two smaller firms with two or three lawyers. You gotTA understand. Los Angeles. The city is only five or six percent black. So. It's hard to sustain too much into a big market for strictly black law firms. That's just the reality of our numbers. There probably are larger numbers in Washington. D. C. I'm sure I know. There are large numbers in Atlanta in new. York City I am sure and Chicago. I am sure as well in Detroit. I know that buddies they're. They're the reason that I'm asking the question as because I think, and it's odd for me to be trumpeting your horn. I think you're actually being falsely modest here because I believe that the place that you worked was a civil rights powerhouse fueled by unusual black power because you had. Had, an uncommon identifying point with much of your clientele was that the white lawyer couldn't possibly understand and it ended up costing itself in the Oj Simpson trial where you saw the white lawyer pushed out of the way because OJ Simpson realized. Oh, no I need to get with these black guys. They understand the history of Los Angeles. They're going to be able to actually tell the story in a way that the guy from Brentwood couldn't possibly tell correct and rarely have been accused of false modesty. But but it is. It's a pioneer in law firm like that's the reason that Johnny Cochran was an icon to you. I'm talking to you right now. I see. Jimmy Hendrix in the background. Like you are your of time, you are of a time in a totally different America you were living in a time where that was the epicenter of some really interesting, societal legal and civil rights stuff. Johnny Cochrane in a Purple Jacket is sitting here. Saying this is my constituency. Watch what I can do with a bunch of black lawyers with Swaggie Smart Watch what I can do showing the rest of America the injustices in Los Angeles and. That's why I like your show, and I like doing stuff for us because you can connect and relate to that, even in a sports context men unlike few of your contemporaries. That's a good thing for you. Well thank you for saying that but I I still don't understand why you're not willing to say hey, our law firm was a bad ass. Pioneering Law Firm like why am I the one saying at four? You wired you the one saying. We were bad ass high near lawfirm because we were not afraid to lose, okay, and Johnny had such success before I even joined their man. I just wrote away man my point. Is that Michael Jackson and Oj? Simpson didn't end up there by accident sure. I mean that that's how that that that's how that ends up happening because they realize where it is that people understand even. The criminally misunderstood because I don't know whether you saw that. Hbo Documentary or not, but to me from my vantage point on the Michael Jackson stuff. I thought that it became obvious in that documentary that he is guilty of pedophilia like I am I, being an idiot there. Because I thought, the documentary was very persuasive. It's interesting because win. I represented Michael during the first time he was charged. Those two guys were exhibits one and two supporting Michael Wait Rosen. They weren't they were the poster boys. Supporting that nothing ever went on. A and they sounded very believable to me, but it's so ironic man because they were the poster boys you know. Every time so you watch the documentary. And what do you think to yourself because I'm finding? They're saying the exact opposite now and I'm finding them saying the opposite to be persuasive. Listened to their version, I don't have I'm a dish. CARE is I didn't see bill I saw recently last six months or so, and their story sounded believable to me. Let me say that okay. That's because you can get to it right as someone who was representing the the other side. Yeah, but but at the time do you have any remorse or guilt about the idea? And this is something that is deeply deeply embedded in the law. Though no, I'm just wondering. If at any point, there is some crime that comes across your desk where you say this is something that I can't defend. It's not defensible. Oh! Atl- I have been a lawyer for forty years I. Don't do child molestation cases ironically I. Don't handle rate cases I don't like them. I don't handle cases of somebody being up an old lady on all black lady I, recognize an acknowledged their rights to have earned strong competent counsel I choose not to be that council. Okay so certainly. A murder case and problem me drug case. that the irony is land. The grocer takes the drug man's money. The realtor takes the drug man's money. You know the Carmen takes the drug man's money. Give me a break. Okay, so when you say though that you wouldn't you don't take. A? Child Abuse Cases that Michael Jackson one is one of the most famous of all time. I wasn't employees in an office. He said he didn't do it. Silent Me Okay. And it was Michael Jackson. Well, but know that what you're saying there seems to. Keep going because. I'm a trial lawyer. I want to be on the line with the ball in my hand and the Corcoran down. Okay. It is the makeup that. Eighty percent of lawyers are not trial lawyers. There's a certain make up for those of us than are I. AM Super Hyper, competitive I'm a modern day gunslinger. When I realized I wasn't on the basic three had to go. Works. So I look at ESPN CNN and the food network. Because I'm a cooking competition. Their heels so the chance to work on Michael Jackson's case. I don't care if it were filmed and it happened and a church letting out for for Bar Mitzvah. So. If Michael Jackson had beaten up an old woman, and all of the other awful stuff you might have to, because you're a trial lawyer. First and foremost, you gotta go. Is, they. West. We'll come. Did you without question man come on. Did you hit yourself in the side of the head? Okay, let's end on that note Carl. Good talking to you. It's always good talking to you. It's always entertaining. Thank you for being with us. That was funny and it was interesting. Then my pleasure out again, please. Thanks to Carl Douglas for his time and his work. Thank you for listening again. We ask you to rate subscribe and review. Lebatardshow Friends Stupidity Mystery Crate Sarah Spain's podcast. That's what she said Meena. Times show featuring Lenny and Marty Smith's Carolina Slash America rate, subscribe and review. We're going to be dark again next week on south. Beach sessions because we've been putting all this stuff out and an alarming rate and we'd put too many of them out, so we're dark next week, but we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks.