Designing Better Gene Therapies for Human Health with Liz Parrish, CEO at BioViva Sciences USA Inc.
Hey Outcomes rocket friends thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again as a leader in healthcare you have big ideas great products a story to tell and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem healthcare's tough to navigate and the typical sale cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy at the outcomes rocket. I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I not started my podcasts. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create podcasts at delivers value. That you are looking for and the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we're currently at the ground level. Meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts. Small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomes rocket dot health slash. Podcast check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomes rocket dot health slash podcast. Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcasts where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders today. I Have Liz Harish the founder and CEO of Bio Viva Sciences USA at Bio Viva. They're committed to extending healthy life spans using gene therapy. Liz is a humanitarian entrepreneur innovator and very dedicated to the space and it's a pleasure to have her on the podcast today. Liz welcome thanks. It's great to be her saw. I'm I'm really excited about this podcast. Hey me too by the way. Thanks so much I know you just got back from travel and so really appreciate you carving us into your busy schedule. I'm sure well it's a pleasure and if you can just bear with my a slow moving mind. My jet lag mind will have a great conversation. Hey well maybe it's a good opportunity for us to actually stay on pace with Yoga's you definitely are a mover and shaker. So did I miss anything in that intro. That maybe you wanted to highlight for the listeners. On now I think that that's fine. I think that I'm just the woman who wants to genetically engineer. You and I guess you probably want to find out why we do so folks we're going to be chatting about this topic genetic engineering and so you're going to find this very very fascinating before we dig into those things. I did want to ask you. Liz what got you into the medical sector to begin with. Well you know from two thousand eleven to two thousand thirteen. I volunteered for a group that was trying to do. Education in the area of stem cells and stem cells had vastly lost their funding in the US. Do to the Bush administration pulling funding because of embryonic stem cells. Then suddenly everyone thought that the work of stem cells was embryonic stem cells and didn't realize that most of the work is tall against themselves meaning stem cells from your body and gave me a great opportunity to see what was happening in this realm of. Regenerative medicine. You know the first real regenerative medicine that we could look at. That was having some impact on human bodies in research in universities in the US but also there were a lot of companies offshore the US medical tourism type groups who are claiming to have really good effects and so we were trying to sort out. What would you need to actually build a database to show whether or not be offshore work was was working in humans but in two thousand thirteen right when we were getting this project going? I actually left the project because my son was diagnosed with type one diabetes and essentially our family became a client of the US healthcare system. And I was really disappointed with what I saw. I was happy with with some things but I was really unhappy with other things. And that was that thing's called experimental medicine. Were not used in humans that were dying so I asked you know them. If the healthcare workers doctors at Children's Hospital my son could have his pancreas by obeying door if he could get stem cell injections and they said that's experimental medicine. We don't do that. You should look around the hospital kids here. Dying and your son has a manageable disease so be happy about that. While I just couldn't be happy about that I couldn't be happy that we let people die when I was reading and research that there was all this fantastic innovations so I stepped out of the nonprofit and I stepped into business and trying to find cures for kids. I ran into. What was headlong attraction? I was going for any way. Which was genetics and genetic yours and started looking at an aging population as a great testing zone for kids. Who are dying a. Let's do this the most humane way. We have over one hundred thousand people who die every day of aging diseases. Many of these diseases are similar to what's happening at the cellular level of childhood disease some of the childhood diseases. So why didn't we embark on the first big engineering program using terminally ill patients to step up? And take advantage of a situation of experimental medicine and try to spearhead the future for humanity including themselves. And so. That's kind of how I got started yet. You know. It's a great story and appreciate you sharing it. Liz Tough Road to be faced with that. A lot of Americans and a lot of people across the world. They're really faced with as well. So it's wonderful that you decided to take on the driver seat of this so it's taking you on a journey and you've you've made some progress in really excited to jump into some of that progress through our discussion today. What would you say is a hot topic that you feel needs to be an every medical leaders agenda today and how are you and the Bio Viva team addressing it? I you know again. It's a genetics in engine parody. And I think that it what needs to be on the very forefront of everyone's a`mindset is translating this technology so in the nineteen seventies. We had some of our biggest advances in looking at genetics and incense. Then of course we've taken that and we fine tuned it into drugs that actually work. So if you look at what's going on in gene therapy today one mono genyk disease. After a time as being knocked off the Chart Amano genetic disease means there's one faulty gene and by just inserting a proper copy of that gene. We have healthy functioning people and right now. We think that these therapies might be a one treatment for a lifetime. We may find out different in twenty years but kids with boy. In the bubble disease which is severe combined immune deficiency Skid are becoming cured. They with one treatment can step out into the world and start to enjoy things. Hemophilia is becoming a disease of the past as will sickle cell anemia. There are several out congenital. Blindness these are areas where we now are developing drugs that are one treatment before lifetime for patients so we need to look at the power of that technology and start to look at what's called complex disease so aging as a disease for instance there's nine or ten hallmarks of aging that happen as old as we age overtime. And if we can tackle those then we won't die of. The disease is like Alzheimer's cancer and heart disease. That would be fantastic. Each one of those diseases is a trillion dollar sinful every year. So it's pretty important that we tackle those. We also then tackle a childhood disease a very humane way with drugs that we know how they work by testing them and and other subjects and so I think that the translation of this medicine now that we know how powerful it is is the most important step forward at this point yeah. That's a really strong message and clear pathway forward to get some of these solutions to patients. What would you say? An example of what bio viva has done it to create better results. Better outcomes as well. We have now built a platform so it took us a couple of years sadly wait. It was a winding road to realization. What we actually needed to do and what we needed to do as what the company was designed to do three years ago. So what we need to do is analyze patient data. What happens in patients when they take B.'S? Therapeutics and actually do it in a wide panel Not Do the traditional regulatory route to approval type of data dynamics where you might hide a bunch of data and only seek for one point. Does it affect this disease? Does it affect this disease? We need to look at multiple mortality risks. And we need to look at a panel of biomarkers and data points and genetics and actually points to whether these patients are getting healthier and where they're seeing improvements in their body and where they're not the company would like to. Of COURSE BILL. Swartz the ultimate combinatorial. Gene therapy the multitude of genes. That it will take to create a very homeo- static state for a human body where the body just stays in health for a long period of time and in order to do this. We need to look at a multitude of genes. So what we've done is we've turned by Aviva into a data analysis company where we just look at not as an points but we look at a bunch of data points of what happens when patients go. Offshore and take unregulated or regulated gene therapies. We have a partner company. It's called Integrative Health Systems and they actually broker deals between patients and medical doctors who basically have no other choice may be Bayer terminally ill. And they've been sent home with no other option and this gives them an opportunity to take part in studies that will expedite the use of irreputable. And how that's important is. This isn't just a money endeavour. Actually everything is kept the the lowest cost possible. This is a a multi pronged approach. You might think of it as a triangle on one. Hand the patient. The patient is an important part of the triangle. It's one end of it. It gives them an option to try things when the medical system is given up and said we don't have anything else for you and you're going to hospice. The second areas the biotech company. We have a lot of really promising by tech companies out there that ended up disappearing because they can't become profitable. There's no way to raise the amount of money they need. And or their bought out by big companies who may or may not choose to take their drugs to the pivotal point of becoming therapeutic and the third area The last area is investors. If you look at drug discovery it's actually pretty surprising. Anyone puts their money and investment into it anymore. It has a ninety. Four percent failure rate and to get through one of these regulatory areas could cost over a billion dollars so when you're looking at an investor who wants to put in maybe a hundred million are half a million dollars. Their failure rate is massively Designed against them so if we can actually look at drugs before they hit the clinical trial path and we can show whether they work or not and where they work. Okay we could actually give investors the inside scoop of where to invest in what drugs to expedite for what case scenario. So if I had a drug that looked really promising to Dan was just say I went to the Graveyard of where most most drugs go to die. Which is Alzheimer's and I ran the drug. I raised a billion dollars to run the Dragon. Impatience deregulatory service but it failed because it only helps. Alzheimer's patients minimally but what if it regenerated their kidneys? These are the kind of things that we need to know because we're looking at genes now. That aren't just maybe a supposed in certain disease states but that are actually running regeneration in the human body so that's one of the shifts in looking at diseases not just saying Oh. This gene is implicated. Well that's finding that gene is implicated. There's a lot of genes implicated in disease but what genes actually drive regeneration. And that's the paradigm shift that we're doing is we're looking at genes that prolong the life in animal models regenerate cells actually start to recoup the damage or actually may be reversed the damage that's caused by aging. And so when you start looking at that you're looking at drugs that have a multipurpose down the road and maybe will affect a multitude of multiple mortality sort of outcomes. Yeah that's a really interesting perspective. Liz and as these drugs fail billions of dollars out the window. You said ninety three percent failure rate. Why not take a look? At the periphery of these Intended results and see what regenerative Traits could be found. Because there's a lot of things that could be potentially used to your point. Yes so you know if you run a drug for one. Endpoint your likelihood of failing. Even if it's a really good drug becomes even more. So if we look it if we shift the paradigm to looking at genes interesting that actually create regeneration rather than maybe just on. Beta amyloid plaques or some random downstream effect of a disease then our likelihood of success is bigger but then if we look at bigger panel regeneration over the body and we start to roll into a bigger amount of success and so it's just building from one success to another and getting better drugs through the regulatory service which obey still need to go through regulations. Were trying to say that we shouldn't have regulated drugs. We just patients who are in great need should have access to most anything that shows a benefit. Yeah no that's really great. Now you guys have You know made a shift. You commented earlier that you shifted things over at the company to tap into the strengths and the core of what you guys were dedicated to. Can you share with the listeners? At time when you had a setback and what you learned from that setback I feel like in health care. We all have them and we learn most from those setbacks. Can you share one of those house? Sure well I think that we've had a real winding road we. We've had a multitude of setbacks in one of them is what created the paradigm shift that we did where we decided to look just at the data of patients rather than try to keep moving forward to talk to government after government and try to figure out how to treat patients ourself where a US company and we couldn't actually find a a promising legal route to treat patients ourselves and so there was a lot of time probably wasted in in discussions and and trying to find loopholes to help patients which is seems absolutely absurd to even say that in really difficult to do that so our shift came when we realized that we actually needed partnerships that were not US companies that could help facilitate patients getting access to technology and then us you know shifting gears do not directly treating patients but just analyzing the data and of course we hope to analyze the data of a multitude of offshore companies. That are doing. Were basically focusing on our exclusive partners right now because when you're in business you have to look worse area of greatest need. I mean when you can just pick a company where you can just make a lot of money but I'm a humanitarian and I go for really high risk but high outcome projects project will affect the whole world. There are a lot harder to get to the point. But in your really blazing new territory and so in that blazing new territory. You find that. Actually you have to do some traditional things and then you have to just shut off. Stop listening to some of the areas some of the myths that we live by and those myths could be the things that people tell you that you can't do that. Be Certain regulatory hurdles and things like that if you do things right. I think that you can do a lot of things and when you do run into a wall like we did then yet you just have to be ready to pivot. You just can't give up. You gotta be ready to pick and find your partnerships can help you achieve what you need to. I think that's what we did. I think that's really great and courageous to the point of a sumptiousness. Gosh you know one of my favorite Sayings as assumptions at SEI A S S. You and me it can make an A. S. as out of you and me and it's so true right if we don't question these we really won't be able to make those leaps that we're looking to make to improve outcomes. Yeah we really have to help society get over that. So what is a regulated drug? You know so if you look at the Cochran report and we look at the number to treat the number the harm. We actually have a lot of harmful drugs out there. That people don't even questioned that they take we have to kind of open the mindset and open the eyes do people not scare anybody but actually show them that there are other ways to develop therapeutics and get them to the regulatory system in an expedited route that will actually help millions of people much faster by using them. Sooner than some people would think that we should and it's the whole mindset is the hall bioethics debate which is filled with unethical ideas that a drug should be safe before using humans and yet we have no safe drugs. Were all part of an experiment of people die. Every year taking their drugs as prescribed and we have to get over the mindset that we should just let people die rather than giving them access to experimental medicine. I mean it's such folly it's such folly and They're losing their biggest asset and we should not let that happen and so we have to be less risk averse. What would you say? One of your products. Leadership moments in healthcare has been they. Oh I don't really celebrate that much. I don't think we have that much to celebrate. I am really much into the grinding of work. Sort of person but I guess if we had something bit. I call if we had something that we did that I think had leadership but of course was bastardize in much of the media. It was that in two thousand fifteen. We embarked on the first gene therapy against biological aging in complex disease. That was a big moment for us. I took I myself Bleeding accompanies the CEO bought. It was most ethical that I would take combinatorial gene therapy and it was a tom race. Inducer Anna my astatine inhibitor. So for the Audience Tom. Race induced Sir increases being length of telomeres at the ends of the chromosomes which we think protecting the chromosome is one of our best bet of keeping people healthier longer so as your cells. Divide as you get older. Those telomeres at the ends of the chromosome get shorter and shorter. And they get really damaged and we think that by keeping them long and keeps the cell youthful and that's been shown in research for over ten years. The other one was a Maya Stanton inhibitor. Which pumps up your muscle mass? So it's you consider it a performance drug but it's actually a great therapeutic for an aging population to increase their muscle mass and keep them active longer period of time running stairs keeping them prevailing. And so we embarked on that in two thousand fifteen and I. Actually you know two days ago and privacy. I just got another Tila Mir results back and my telomeres are a little bit longer. And that's great so you took it once you take it once. We saw muscle increase in the muscles. That were treated. We've seen telomere length increase. We've seen a reduction in C reactive proteins and for the basic listener. Those are a marker of Inflammation. And so my inflammation markers went way down my insulin sensitivity went way down which is great. Because that's something that gets worse as you age and makes it more likely that you'll get things like type two diabetes which we call metabolic disorder. So I think it was a time that we really took the lead and we said we want to be a company that gets behind the drugs that we want to have people take and we WANNA prove that they're safe and we're willing to take them ourselves and that was great a wet and distraught message. Yeah so we learned a lot from it. We'd had just enough money of investment at the time for to take one therapeutic and we did do preliminary blood work we did do preliminary M. R. I.'s. We did do preliminary telomere length testing but we didn't have the largest panel of biomarkers at the time. We were very young company and we didn't really have the finances to do it but we've followed it up and now were hoping that the patients will want to partake in though so we can actually get a better understanding how they work over a larger group of people fascinating and very interesting to hear that even now. Telomeres are a little bit longer and Muscle productions happening so. Tell us a little bit about an exciting project or focus that you guys are working on today. Well the focus is is to to run the data of what happens with patients when they take off shore therapies but our partners. There are lucky because they're getting to actually design protocols and offer therapeutics To patients who are in need now and what would be exciting projects that they'll be offering and we can't wait to look at the data. It's a low dose gene therapy so keeping it in the safest parameters as possible but it creates a cost effective potential treatment for Alzheimer's so as using the Tom Race inducer and it is actually therapy. That's under seventy thousand. Which in the area of gene therapy is up mass. That's massive deal. That's a really. It's just a study and it's trying to get. I think ten patients through to do that. They're also looking at at bringing in gene therapy for chronic kidney disease. It also will be about in that price range which again at compared to gene therapies. That are coming through translation through. The Regulatory Services is a market change and therapeutic cost. They're also offering of course the anti-ageing gene therapies but they're pretty cost prohibitive and They're similar to the one that I took so they're they're relatively expensive. But you know those are around a million dollars. They're really a lot of gene therapy and most of the price honestly that this company offers to patient is just running the gene therapy. So you can imagine if you're running a gene therapy for humans through a US manufacturer that's going to be almost if you're you know you're looking at high doses of gene therapy. Almost all of that is the cost of building the gene therapy then. Our doctors take a little bit amount of money. We take a little bit to run. The data just to stay in business and idea is to find the therapies that work and you know just so painting about this for the future the more patients that you run through the cheaper the cost so like if you say well how we treat the whole world of each therapy cost a million dollars just to make it for a large large dose therapy when you make it for a thousand people. It doesn't cost that much. Then you know. The costs are in the tens of thousand. If you made it for a million people it's going to even go down from there and as manufacturing capacity of these manufacturers actually but boosts up eventually becomes as cheap as an immunization and that's what we're hoping for the world is low cost up therapeutics that have a huge impact on health while. I'm of the belief that much like anything else whether it be Goods and services healthcare is also a good and a service and so when looking at options. I mean you know I had. I had a friend Liz that EXA the recently but a year go passed away. He had cancer could find a way to treat. It went to the best medical care he could get a he even started considering out of country solutions and I think when it comes to our health I think we have to keep an open mind and consider out of the box and out of the country solutions so Liz really appreciate you. Sort of setting the stage for that with these therapies. Oh yeah well thank you and you know we have to really come to the mindset that this pioneering new technology so now more people who have spent one hundred two hundred thousand three hundred thousand dollars to get an opportunity to fly up into space while you know being part of gene therapy and pioneering new technology. It's an opportunity. It's more than just taking therapy to try to treat a disease. You're pioneering the of technology you're actually making a better world for other people and you're having an experience and right now. The outcomes for how many people have taken gene therapy now? We can't say it's one hundred percent safe but it's it's looking actually really good so we're hoping that that people will want to be a part of pioneer in that technology and fortunately it does cost to participate in it but what an experience to be and like you said especially if you're on the dark side of it terminal illnesses where you don't have any options and you're willing to consider more things. The pioneering thing is a great analogy. Liz I've got this picture of the solar system on my wall here and I'm just looking at it. I'm like yeah you know that is that is perspective I love. I tried to look up every night and give thanks or what. This universe is brought an I just. It's so humbling and We're lucky to be part of it and so we really should create big human value. You know what? What are we going to bring to other people? I don't think it's enough to sit here and make carbon dioxide. I think that we should be part of a much bigger. I totally agree to pay it to put it. Just you could do a little bit more than make carbon dioxide people into the end here Liz. Let's pretend united building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in the business of medicine gene therapy the ABC's of Liz Perish. So I've got four questions for you. Lightening Round Style olive by followed by your recommendation for the listeners. Ready all right. What's the best way to improve? Healthcare outcomes all I would say faster translation to the right patients so we need to work on precision bass medicine and disease typing for patient outcomes and tackling big things genetically whenever we can. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid risk aversion? I think that that is the easiest thing to do. I think probably that might come into one of my favorite books. Dune fear is the mind killer and it will absolutely limit us as a as a human species love that. How do you stay relevant despite constant change? Well I think we're on the tip of of change but I think keeping on top of research and digging for old research that showed relevance and making sure that research doesn't go unbound. What's an area focused session drive everything in a healthcare organization? Well I mean healthy people. So what should drive? Everything isn't money. If you're if you're meaning needing you're creating healthier people money will come. So I think that making people healthy longer focusing on aging and disease and catastrophes they cause around us in actually trying to minimize that is probably the best thing the great one. While you mentioned the Dune any other books you'd like to recommend one you're sticking with art. Think Picking Your favorite book is like picking your favorite color and I think I might be too old to do that so off going for my head all of these things. Because you've you've said that now twice and and I've been like oh my gosh and so I think that Some of my favorite books recently. So my all time. Favorites for adventure is Lord of the rings and dim. I think an half they can precise five. It's definitely anything located but as far as relevant into areas that were working in in books. That are good for anyone. They're not to end up. I would say in the last two years probably Homo sapiens and Homo Day us. By ewbal Noah. Harari is that it and we're good the Red Queen which is sex in evolution of human nature by Matt. Ridley was really good the sports gene. Don't pass this one up. It's the sports gene inside the science of extraordinary athletic performance. And I'm trying to remember these off the top of my head up against them wrong the And that's why I think it's Epstein. That was really good. It shows you how certain people have an advantage and if we all want to have that advantage we need to look at gene therapy and then there was one called the gene by Sudarsa. Can't remember his last name. Started with an m really fantastic recently. I'd read what is life By process I think is the name of the author and it is a really neat. Look at how we define what life is and and it might surprise you vita mania was a one from a woman named Catherine Ram Price and it shows you how we look at food how we look at engineering of vitamins in our food and how we might actually be hurting people in other countries because we have over nutrition we may be over using these vitamins which comes at a detriment and we might be limiting other cultures from getting their hands on them just because we're getting a negative output from the overuse of them here so how our mindset affects people at a long distance and then for the academics. Anyone going into science how to read a paper has from a woman named Tricia. It's green something Rina's I can't remember but our read a paper. It's like the basics of evidence based medicine and it will help even an average person get through how to read a paper a research paper. A what things that you really should look at to make sure that what you're reading is accurate so that you have a better understanding of how successful it actually was and I would say that that's really really important in the day and age of where cancer has been cured a hundred times in mice but never not once in humans fascinating. They have folks a list from Liz. Perish all on and on and on to read. I'm reading Brooks because unfortunately my eyesight is not as good as it used to be and now. I have to wear a trifle goal. So Jahmai gene therapy did not fix my is. There are a lot of gene therapies. That are coming through the pipeline. Four a congenital. Blindness macular degeneration both wet and dry and things like that. And I'm really looking forward to those because we will meet those four. The future of living long lives but right. Now I've gotten to the point where I really loved. Listen to a buck Rather than where my trifocals and trying to figure out what part of the glasses to look through to read the book. Yeah I'm right there with you. Too and audio books are definitely my favorite first choice and then Print of it's not available. There's also a service called Blankestein. I've mentioned before before really fully committing to a book. Blink as sort of gives you their their blinks. They call him blinks little chap many chapters on what it's about to give you the gist so good little resource there Liz. This has been a blast folks by the way if you WANNA find the list of books that Liz shared with us as well as a transcript of our discussion today go outcomes rocket that health slash bio viva you'll find everything there and An opportunity to replay the episode. There you could do that on. Itunes Google any podcast platform really Liz. This has been a blast. I love if you could just share a closing thought before we conclude and then the best place for the listeners could get in touch and reach out with you. Well I oh well I would just like the listeners to be really excited about the future. I'd like them to be really open minded about the future. I'd like them to sort of lay down their their fears and concepts of what the future might look like and realized that you know together. We've proven over and over again that humans can create technology and really use it for the good of the world and then we can together Create that and they should be excited about maybe the future of their own human body and think about the things that the assets and the benefits and performance that they would like to have their body have in the future whether it be smarter stronger and faster in together we can actually make that a reality outstanding. And what would you say the best place for the listeners can connect with you or your company's well the probably the best way is to go through the website by Obita Dash Science Dot Com. And there's a place to contact us there You'll most likely get a hold of my sustained Katharina and you can chat with her relay any messages through or ask any questions that you have. And I'm not very good at social media quite honestly and I'm sure I have a lot of opinions but I never been huge proponent to think that anyone's opinion is it's probably that important but I'm sorry hit and miss on social media will come out and I'll put a few updates out you can always for by. Oh Biba on facebook or twitter and then I have a personal account. Liz Perish on on facebook and I I think I have an instagram and twitter. But again I'm not at him very much but You bear with me. I do try to get to the messages. So folks if you WanNa get in touch with Liz. Just go through the website. That'd be the best way and we'll leave that link on the show notes this go to outcomes rocket dot health slash bio Viva Liz. This has been a blast You really have taken US Donna Path. That is Very forward-looking and important to consider as we look to improve outcomes and healthcare so just want to give you a huge. Thank you for spending time with us today. Well thanks for having me solid. It's really fantastic. And any option in possibility that we have to get information out We just really appreciate it. It's it's really the most important thing that you can do is help a message spread. Hey Outcomes rocket friends thanks for tuning in to the podcast. Once again as a leader in healthcare you have big ideas. Great products stored. It's hell and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem healthcare's tough to navigate and the typical sale cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy at the outcomes rocket. I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I not started my podcasts. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast at delivers value. That you are looking for and the same thing goes if you start a podcast you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we're currently at the ground level. Meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomes. Rocket dot health slash podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales marketing and outcomes of Your Business. That's outcomes rocket dot health slash podcast.