Episode 245: Her Torah - Yael Kanarek
Support for this episode of Judaism unbound comes from the Osman Family JCC in Palo Alto California whose vision is to be the architects of the Jewish future. The Schmidt Family JCC's is an incubator for new expressions of Jewish identity. It creates innovative Jewish learning celebrations, arts programs that inspire personal connections to people and ideas from across the Jewish world learn more at www dot palo alto JCC dot org. This is Judaism unbound episode two, hundred, forty, five, her Torah. Welcome back everyone I'm Dan Lee Benson and Lex Roessberg, and on the subject that we've been thinking about over the last few weeks feminism and the American Jewish community. This week's project takes it to a new level. Our guest today artists L. Anorak has been working since two thousand sixteen on an incredible project called Terata, which means her Torah to rewrite the entire. Torah. The entire five books of Moses or the Pentateuch. In Hebrew and English to reveal the divine feminine as a central presence in the Hebrew sacred texts. She's doing this by regenerating the Bible meaning that male characters become female and vice versa words and concepts that are written in the masculine and Hebrew are switched to the feminine and Vice Versa, and we'll discuss all this indepth. The first draft of Torre ta in Hebrew was completed in April of twenty twenty and yet. is currently working with Bible. Scholar Tamar Biala. On the second draft, they're also already writing commentaries to this work and L. records been creating visual Madrid seem as fine art prints, exploring ideas in Jewish thought through letters and form Bait terata dot org the home for study in ritual of this re gendered Bible was inaugurated just recently on the holiday of Torah with a service led by two rabbis recent Judaism, unbound guests, Vera Rivera, and emily. Cohen Bay Torah aims to lead by example, with Jewish study and ritual held entirely in women's body language. You can visit this evolving site at www dot Beta rata dot org that's B. E. T. T. O. R. A.. H. Dot Org and just a few more words on today's guest. Yeah L. Kanak in addition to her work on Tura she is a visual artist and jewelry designer whose practice focuses on the relationship between language and form. She works in various media such as Internet. Art Large, scale sculpture, and fine. Jewelry. Yell Ken Iraq was born in New York City and raised in Israel. She returned in the early nineteen nineties to study and practice art and became known for her Internet are trilogy world of. She has exhibited her work at the Jewish Museum the Whitney Museum, the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art and many more. She is the recipient of fellowships from the Rockefeller new media grant IBM, and lava the laboratory for Jewish culture where she designed the Hebrew Font goofy need for her jewelry collection in two thousand eighteen she installed a large scale sculpture commissioned by the US Department of State at the new embassy in Zimbabwe. Yeah. L.. is also an artist in residence at the ROMEU congregation? In New York City. I'll just note that in our conversation, we will talk about Torah, her Torah or this re gendered Bible Project, and sometimes about Toronto his era by which we mean the Torah as we've had it for thousands of years, and I should also note that the goal is not to replace thereto with Tara but rather for tower attached stand alongside Toronto as a work, of Jewish, sacred literature, and with that, we could not be more excited to get into this conversation so you. Welcome to Judaism unbounded so great to have you. Absolutely. So glad to be here. I'll tell you this is one of the projects that I. I would say I'm most excited about in the last five years. So I'm really I'm really excited to have this conversation because it's exactly the kind of bold. We've talked about Luther versus knowledge curve. In a good way to re gender the entire, Bible. So or the entire at least maybe I'll get to the Bible down the road. The Bible right you heard it here first folks. Can, we start by you telling us a bit of the story of how you came to take on this project. So about I think fifteen years ago I I was asked to lead a Seder I picked up doggone dynamic has reading through stumbled on came to a denial to analysts scratching my head is Deny Floral Might Lords Lucchino. Our Gods my lords guides is like okay. Wow. I haven't heard that before. Haven't noticed continued booklets stiffs redid like that the whole way and I was shocked to realize that there are no women I gotta except for the song. Miriam, women. Like I've been doing this year after year. And never heard that and what else am I not hearing? But at some point arrived at I, was studying from a a man rabbi. He was teaching sleep men, and at some point he said I actually don't know how to teach women and then he also said something that at some point you have to start building the vessels for the divine you have to start being the creator of those vessels and I was thinking I don't have anything to work with I mean I don't have language to work with. A The only thing that I have received was that I might position as. A help mate, I. Don't have the direct relationship to bail Levin. So that was frustrating and then it really stern no books at all it's like A. The library is missing. I went to a class and were studying one of the major shame that can make cringe. Like what if it was the other way round I mean how that would feel to a man to read that an the teacher literally said you know cannot be changed in him an artist would I hear something like that like interesting let's see. Let's see how that works in a went home and tied. Winter, the beginning 'cause that's where I felt that the critical moment is when they elohim creates the dom in his likeness and image. Male and female created them. That there's some code in there might be of help innate. So I went home and a did okay and looking. Created that Harare in her likeness image that's where where was it that particular moment female male created them. Looking at that wall. That's really interesting. Suddenly fail back the volume like literally volume of the texts went from two to ten. Can you say a little bit more just to just For a listener who may not be intimately familiar with the beginning of the genesis story in the Bible as we have it the Toronto the male version of the Bible the God Elohim Creates the Adam The adum his wife down the road is named Eve or Hover And your re gendered version. You have the Feminine Version L.. O. Heen. Who is creating something that sound like. Or Eve, but you've actually changed a little bit. So it's Ova. So just to set, is there that you are kind of rewriting the the story of the creation of human beings are you've written human beings also that in a way that that really fundamentally reoriented around the first creation being of this women this Cova? And that's how and when that happens your experience of it is is it's blowing why what? What was it that you that you saw as soon as you did that For SELENA understood agency. That's a different way of looking at the world that that that was that moment any I start to understand. The divine inspiration coming through me through other discount mother daughter lineage. Now, let's look at the world through that. So. That was really really quite quite a revelation in that. It was naturally like, okay. What else is here? Let's just do the whole thing. It later I. Found know the one of the tools which allow fight you know I'm as a contemporary artists are trained to take things apart and rebuild them. I always tried to look under the hood turn something on its head. There's a long history within the Jewish tradition of plowing a really kind of going to Texas finding words in other words, common words are taken apart and re shuffle or letters are changed. You Know Ali fine or some scene or change to reveal other meaning. And for me this is this is like you know this is building blocks for you know for making up making arts. You know this is how I love that what's so In looking there is the end the nothing. There's the. These away looking or Alah Goddess. There is in the mirror of the the end of Levin. In the beginning you get the me. So now in him, you have this really interesting relationship between the I the self. The nothing. And in between the things and I think this is a really interesting layer of the Phoenician for for the word leam the define that it's really encompassing with it. Their relationship that the self has with the infinite at those very nice way to start the Torre ta story, and now we're not even talking about sexual organs. Now, if people feel they need that, it's always gonNA be into dilatot is not going anywhere. In. The whole idea of the is not to come in a race total. The idea of attack is to open these stories to the perspective of women when the divine inspiration comes directly through mother daughter religion because now with this full agency through the story, we can build and create new meaning and we don't even know what that means is. Can you talk to us about like what actually is changing? Because I think somebody I don't want somebody to listen and be like okay. Cool. Change the genders great like the story is still the same. But like now different characters are existing because it's sort of the matter now women like a deeper than that. The Action Foundation of what the story is changes. I'd love for you to open up for us what that looks like and I mean maybe I'm thinking of what you did with the story of Abraham and Sarah who become Abraham and Sarah. All their names in that part of the story change. Isaac to I. I. Won't spoil what all the names are. Let's talk about that. But what happens in this text when you move forward from that initial story and you go into the remainder of genesis, the other books like how do things change when we do more of this gender flipping in the text of the Torah? So. Abraham means high father Meanti so became Ama- mother. Sarah. It was so I. I. But we ended up with Sal. We could trace the source for the name in. It's close in after she became becomes Sarah with the hey, means ministers. So we went with Sal. These are the high characters had gal became the stranger. It mean there in the letters and it fits into her role in the way she connects to that. You know I think. One of the really striking differences are actually in another story and that's the story of Mercia when was Schayes born and she's put in a in a basket on the on that tour. the what we call the Nile in Hebrew it's yet all but it also means it has the words a light will come. Will become and change it to take. In the feminine form. I think what's interesting there is that it's now more shah. means she will lift out of the water. It literally means that so more share becomes more shah. But it's now the son of her who comes down to the river and he sees the the bay, the child girl baby girl, and is her his heart goes to her and it's now her brother who overlooks from a distance and it's her father is now cold to nurse her. So what we were able to do is Bring men into the child caring. Part of life these are men we know in our lives, but they never had voice in these particular narratives or in the context of what we consider as reverend or something to protect and. In this is really a beautiful and the way we did that is that the furby allowed to give birth is used interchangeably for for women and men in the story. So we just added conceive. We added nurse and what happens is that the understanding of these words start to change you know if you want to imagine men becoming pregnant and nursing children, you could do that but we can also understand these words as caring for children in. Now, the daughters are the prime child. The father is built in his society he gains value from having daughters. We never ever ever hear that at all ever in our. In. Our world. That it's starts to change the mind. It starts to send the signals to remind to ask for a rebalancing. It takes women or at least my consciousness out of place in conflict tried to fight for a place I don't have to find for place. Here's the place. That's what it looks like. It always pretty absolutely not thrice pretty. And there are a lot of very difficult stories to negotiate. When the story difficult that's when. We make a greater effort at them in. That's where new new conversations start to come up. I just want to reemphasize for our listeners that like you were just saying with very few exceptions when it was absolutely necessary, you didn't add anything new here. You're simply `gendering the Bible and so there's there's no additional paragraphs here. It's more what happens to you as a reader when you start to see it this way and you notice things like you're saying. So in that particular story, what I noticed is that when Adam and Eve leave the garden of Eden, right we we think of it as they ate from the tree of knowledge and they realized they were naked and so God gave them some clothes. You know and that's kind of how we understand it and you could say, well, they they understood sexuality and so they were showing that a cover that whatever it is. But what really comes through in the way that you have it in reinforced by how you're talking about this is fundamentally birth process is that they were given skins meaning they were given their skin more that they were. They didn't have human beings didn't have skin they. They were bones and flesh that you is something that's in the original text, but you don't quite see it unless you're brought into it through this more his metaphor of birth. I mean I love now the creation of a woman. Is is really interesting as the first creation is the ability to sense. The second creation is where more material starts to come on. The VAA is created from breath and desktop the earth and the man is created out of bones and flesh out of by the fact that he's brought to her, she calls him each. By that, she makes her selfish acids. Another layer of becoming the these creatures is conscious creatures than they're brought into the celestial wound. They're like children in their behavior July didn't do that do that. You did that you know it's like that kind of level of conversation and then there's the moment where their birth begins by the fact that they start to experience themselves as separate. And it's a painful separation. You Know L. O. Heen wants to you know it's kind of it's hard to let them go. Basically what she's telling them is what's going to be outside the womb. It can't be as you know comforting you don't have that kind of protection. And she dresses them with skin. It's no sin it has to happen and it's messy. There's one story that I wanted to ask you about in part because it's on my mind because we recently did a project about it, which is the binding of Isaac Story. In the in this version, the binding of kids, clock and. The reason why it struck me particularly reading it in this region underway was because I there was a particular. Video that was made in our project on the binding of Isaac by a mother in Orthodox women who who son came out as gay and that was. Seeing negativity in parts of that community and that in a way she felt that the community was asking her to sacrifice her son by basically moving away from him. Because of his sexual orientation and she refused to do that, she refused to sacrifice her son very powerful video. It actually went kind of pseudo viral and a certain element of Orthodox community because I think people really felt the power of it and. It can't be really thinking about that story before I even knew about your project that. Would this story really have been possible. If if Judaism had come from a kind of divine feminine point of view, right meaning what a feminine God ask for. Human. Sacrifice. Would a would a mother? Really Be Willing to sacrifice her daughter in the way that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son. Well the question that this really allows us to raise is do we really think that at father can take their son to sacrifice them? How Atlanta with us now, but it allows us to think about how do we? What do we? How do we sacrifice our daughter for? and. Now, we can all be at the table you know because otherwise there. Sarah. She doesn't know she doesn't know things were you know stories have been written about that smell? But her voice she's not even there. So now MRI minds in the room and talk, which literally means heat she laugh is in the room. and. We did the first ever on this Pasha and we did it Toto Toyota to line by line during GEN network event. And while. That was really really amazing. You know having agency in the story even if the story is not pretty is. I can't even tell you how free. In I think he can have a bigger conversation I mean you can even say things like, okay Abraham is taking the talk. To sacrifice her or or immunize tastes taking, he talked to sacrifice him. I mean when you have two sides of the story. Than they can start to mate. I think that is that we have about what women can or cannot do are really are opening up and we've been it's been a relatively short period of time in human history that we've been seeing this and so one of the things that I love about Dr Ties that I'm not coming to it from the point of view what I think. Women are shoot would or would not do I'm putting it on the table on. St. Let's have station. But that because we're in the process of discovery you know is is at the end of it no, it's like one point Oh totally Onepointoh big project for one point. Oh but it has to be one coon. No, we have to have library of. Sacred Books that speak of women's experience in the secret terms we need to have that not only women for everyone. I also have to say that I don't necessarily think that this would solve the social order. But informs it in in really bright in very bright light is like x Ray. I mean, there are languages did not have gender systems are still designed to enhance mine even when people say So why not just go straight to not binary. We're. Not Than Binary. The perspectives in which things are moving in the world are designed in the in a man's mind. We need to know what the email mind is. For me what's so liberating and exciting about this project is so there's two layers. One is just the new text in and of itself a whole new set of options for interpretation I. Mean You hinted at this before but like The Way Jewish interpretation works in traditional texts and even less traditional text is like honing in on letters and were and like playing around with the specific letters in the all of a sudden I was thinking to myself. Oh. If if I inhabited a parallel universe or this universe where the characters aim Rommel once again where the first two letters are olof. Men instead of olive bet all of a sudden I'd be thinking Oh in Hebrew. The word team is the same letters Alef meme. If so like all of a sudden, it can be like, oh, the father there I am slipping the mother of Jews aim. Rama or Abraham. Like is like I. I could make the interpretive claim that like the mother of IFS. If mother the high if these are all creative translations of Aim Rama and then I could do like my whole thing about Judaism is a is a is a liturgy of questions in arguments ifs and like I could do a whole thing with that and maybe it sounds ridiculous when the first time we do it. But if you do that and then one hundred years pass all of a sudden that's traditional. We could easily do that. That's. That's how it's made. It me really like riled up and energized. But like I'm flashing to a class I took in rabbinical school last year where this didn't involve changing any tax. This was actually. We, did a we read like a scholarly journal Article, I'm blanking on the name, but I'm going to try to find it and put it in the show notes on our website. This scholarly article took an approach to the book of Ruth. So Not Torah the book of Ruth and encouraged a homo normative reading. It, which as opposed to a Hetero normative reading where you assume as a general rule in a Hetero normative reading that like people are heterosexual. So like you assume that a woman would be attracted to a Manusama, man would be attractive women Homo normative re reading assumes as the norm that men would be attracted to men and women be to all of a sudden the root the Naomi. Parts in the book of Ruth for those who haven't read. It like I encourage you to read it in this way like the ruth and Naomi Parts feel really really fascinating and interesting when you're assuming as a starting point that women are interested in women and there's also stuff with Bo is this other this guy character where he has some interesting tension with this sort of sideline male character that you don't spot if you're not thinking of it if you don't spotted if you're thinking in a Hetero normative way. With this does for me is it's really not just about. Switching one piece it opens up choice. It allows us to to make choices as readers and say, Oh, today Abraham can be a male figure because that serves. This particular look at the book of Genesis, and then tomorrow Abrahama is a female character because that. By the way I have no problem asserting. Gets to broader questions about like I have no problem asserting that one person can perform to use the Judith Butler term a different gender identity at different points in their story. I think that's that's perfectly possible, and so then the question is like, what do we do? Right? So my question is like wh- what would you encourage people to do with this liberating incredible set of possibilities of like oh? We have all these choices. What does somebody leading text study do with that? What is somebody reading do? What that? What somebody dislike looking to grow spiritually do without like what does it actually mean for people that are working with these texts? Just recently started. Down, with a weekly service. Led by rabbi, Niro, Rivera, and Rabbi Emily Cohen. If you, for example a person who's Connect to Judaism through ritual come to our rituals because all the prayers are in the female form. So old familiar prayers now are you you're going to stumble upon them and you're GonNa we hear them and so that's you know a way to do this kind of or have or or meets or patriarchal conditioning. It's a really good way to meet that. If you're person likely who likes to. Go deep into the tax take part in you know who likes to live in their. You know we're going to have many source sheets in different parts that you can start engaging and. Commentary, huge. So how what if learned from doing this is first of all, there's this big tree of story and it continued. Past Toronto Nathen to Christianity in Mormonism, and he's Lomb and other religions in Reno. Different than denominations it really comes to life with commentaries. Savannah additional stories So if you don't have patients to wait for me for us to do that, go ahead and do it. You know these stories are in public domain the belong to all of us, and if you feel inclined in WanNa, do go ahead and do it. You know if you need to hear this in throwing, go ahead and do it. It's our it's our stories. I wanted to ask you some questions about basically being an artist and how you approach this as an artist because in a way the part of why I'm so excited about this project is I've been fantasizing for years about this hypothetical artist who understands that the medium of art is Judaism itself. Right in other words, we think of an artist is somebody who's GonNa make him Nice Jewish somebody who's going to make some Nice Jewish paintings. When I talking about an artist I'm talking about somebody who comes and says my canvas or my paints is Judaism you know and but rather than seeing Judaism, the way that we're up and trained to see which is that basically Judaism is a piece of art that somebody else made and it's our job to either copy it very, very exactly like you almost think of a first year art students sitting in the museum and trying to. Trick trying to paint that exact picture. And it looks like a Rembrandt but it's not a rembrandt because Rembrandt the rembrandt you you just copied it, and in a way that that's kind of some version of that is how we're we're trained to imagine our relationship with Judaism and I think for a lot of us, that's not very exciting and so I've been talking about this this hypothetical artists that will come along and. Show us what it looks like when you take the material of Judaism itself and like you were saying earlier, know just naturally take it apart and put it back together years ago I talked to Ruth Calderon who we've had it in the show who runs a basically a tablet or a Jewish text study organization primarily focused on artists in Israel and I asked her why did You focus on artists and she said it's because you know I don't have to train an artist to do that taking part in putting back together. That's just what they do. So I have to do is teach them the text and then they're going to do interesting things with it. So I would love to hear how you reflect on that as an artist and the story of. Coming to this, and if you were trying to say to encourage people that were listening to this to come with that orientation to other elements of Judaism, how would you describe the artist's way in Judaism? So for me the only way to actually know something to make. I don't remember very well the only way for me to understand something is through making. I think the the description you you brought up, but the artist going to the museum to copy Rembrandt screamed because I've done a lot that even recently in whatever doing that is that I'm able by doing that is slipped my hand into the VINCIS hand. If I really followed closely his lines I can. Embody him. or his movement on the paper, I can really can really feel it. So and way children learn the fastest three mutation we learned through imitation as the greatest tool for learning. So I started asking civil case hallways is this done? So I was like, okay let me try and do it was like, okay. That's how it works. Commentary because we're so trained to receive it as like this monolithic thing, you can't touch, but we made it. Just ran into. This is a you know the precursor story for the flood is in the the epic of Gilgamesh, which is a much older. And one of the thing So it describes what what is brought into the. Family members and the CRAFTSMAN. The. Artists. They bring the artist in to the Chris. And that was dropped in the you know in the in the genesis for with the story, the artists are out. But if you go to any synagogue without the craftsman big this fleece civilised down without the you know the people who are make everything visualizing everything without the musicians that you don't have religion. Really you don't. There's nothing there what he's going to be left with who is GonNa be there to comment on anything in a seat also in texts for their texted I personally love, for example, the the texts where. They start to work on the crafted the building of the of the the Covenant. And more shackles on. Layla but are- daughters. Considered. Arunachal just to clarify the yes. The Tabernacle and lay means. But I, La the shadow of goddess daughter of my lights. This is the kind of mental space you need to start working on the different aspects of the Tabernacle. I feel when I read this text now I could feel my fingers. tickling. ooh Yes I'm right there right there with a text I know what this is. I. Know How to make that work. is fantastic or win more shah. Showed receives the tablets. The first set of tablets is made by lean. Right we you know. They said it's made out of stone, but they're kind of liking written from both sides. She takes him down there. No good. Clearly because the people are completely different space mental space these are probably undecipherable for those people they got a break, but then elohim tells more shot to scope them. She uses the word Sculpture Live within an what I'm right there with her I know what you'd facility means I know what's coming means how you do this kind of cutting projecting a piece of yourself into material I know how it feels I know what it means I. Know What she's doing there has she's projecting had been self into this work because it needs to come from the bottom. And when she goes up Elaine. Says I will write on the tablet but it's no it's more shallow rights on the tablet. So I know that to you know as an artist I know what these things mean from experience. Could never ever even dream to know any of this auto I would not even consider I'm part of that in any way at all bits selectmen we is that other person that's the difference that it's there's no, it's right in happening within my domain of experience. It's very scary for people I get it. You know I get it but the view is amazing if US amazing. I love that you talked about the tablets and the idea of sculpting and sculpture with the Tabernacle League. I often think about sculpture and one of the best lessons I ever got growing up in school like one of the few things that I actually like vividly remember from growing up in school was my art teacher when we were going to the art museum for a field trip said to us like it is very important that when you look at the sculptures and we had like whatever worksheets we were supposed to do with the museum like Oh, who who was the sculptor for this thing who like what was the story behind the like to make sure we actually read the descriptions were and the The Art Teacher said to us. When you look at the sculptures, you have to walk all the way around it and you have to look at it from all the different sites because if you look from just the side where the label is like, you're only going to see part of the story, you're only going see it from one perspective. So you gotta walk around the whole thing. So clear what I'm doing here like this is a metaphor it I also mean it literally like is actually a literal thing that when you look at a sculpture, a statue from different sides, you actually see different thing. But also it's a metaphor, right like you. You're you're bound to understand something new about a text if you look at it from a different angle from a different perspective and in this case with different pronouns so I'd that sculpture piece sort of brought that to me. So I think the the other piece I wanted to bring up though is you've actually been even more ambitious than it might have sounded thus far, which is only mean that positively folks thus far would know that you have taken on the project of rewriting. The Torah with changing the different genders. What you've also done as you started to do commentary I. Loved. You sent us a few prep documents and you sent us like these these little commentaries on the new text which honestly, I think four a tradition that there are some Jews, not all Jews and but like there are some Jews for whom the Torah that you can't really even learn the Torah without looking at the commentaries there people who really only read it through the Lens of the Medieval commentators. And their interpretations of the text and so like when people are reading the Torah, it's almost like you've got two fingers that you've gotTa have a one as your finger is on the the CORTEX in the middle of the page and a clue in one of the five books of Moses Books, and the other finger is in the side commentary to understand what the different interpretations are. You already given some of those interpretations from the new, Torre, Ta Angle, and I'm curious. Is Your Vision there that you yourself Will make you called it the heat the Canary Commentary because your name is close to Canary. Was Awesome and there's also the dates honey commentary because you're because tomorrow means date and your your co commentator is is named Tamar which I love those those word plays but that's awesome. Is your idea there that you're going to do this that the two of you are going to do commentary for the whole thing in addition to all the the core text that you're doing or is the thought like, Hey, everyone let's do this commentary like here's an example that I the canary commentator given now your turn like what's your take on? One of the things that happens the commentary just emerges in the process of rendering. As we really like Oh. Wow that's an interesting idea. Okay. Let's write it down and then it also We felt that some of the new Texas so could be confusing for people. So it's sort of to help especially with the names. If you don't know the meaning of the names, you're actually missing important method in which the story tells the story. So it. Actually a really important suggests even clarifying that you can say it's complicated but now absolutely, yeah come on board. Yeah. But you have to remember in this is hard to see unless I mean I can see clearly but it's hard to see from the when we live in the total side of things is that you have to grow new mind and. So you have to be the texts for awhile before in new minute otherwise you're doing commentary from Toronto and that we know so well. So it's very hard to shake that off it, but I should tell you also that in the process we're doing well, always go back we go to Mars. It will scholars so she brings from that. Then we go to go there. You know win especially when the verses are a very obscure and when you wouldn't know holiday dealt with certain words names and like that. But yeah, the idea is that this is a living Torah. It's not we're not finishing anything. We're just I just opened the door, but this has to be the collective. It has to be in the same way that it is a collective work. It has to be whoever is client and I'm saying if you if this is uncomfortable for you, it's perfectly fine. It's up for you know a S- you know there's A? Huge. Library. Enormous Library. But if you're like inclined to discover if you are seeking that kind of discovery is something really interesting that is becoming available here. This is my take on it have another take. We need that because that's how we can see better. That's how we can see better. Also, the other thing we did that we learned that was really striking is that we have to also. Change. The gender of the sacrificial animals that was in the binding of Isaac story too by the way the. Little little moment where it's a yell at instead of a`do. Rocked my world yes and imagine that in the invitee Kara the vindicates when with all the sacrificial animals, all the law run sacrifice. So now it's a cow and it's you know these are. We did it because it felt different. You know it felt different. We heard it differently and that people described in these stories are very close to their animals. So you feel this kind of intimacy. So as we wrap it up, I wanna ask you again about the process of creating this, I want to ask you a little bit about the experience of doing this because when you talk, there's a certain element where I almost feel like the spirit of prophecy is coming over. You know where where there's something where you read in the Bible of sometimes when that happens to some of the prophets or King Saul, it talks about that you know. The spirit of prophecy comes over him and I'm just curious if you could talk a little bit about the feeling of being immersed in it for years and years, and are you channeling something? Do you feel like you're channeling something and if so what is it that you're channeling? That's question number one, the other question. Is Can you talk a little bit about? Having had this experience. What do you think we could do in the Jewish world today that would enable more people to engage in the kind of creative work in which you've engaged. I mean, you said that there's some people that part of it is innate part of it is just you an artistic type but I think there are a lot of artistic types that may not have gone become professional artists and there are others who many not know whether they are whether they aren't. Are there are there is there a pathway that you imagine might be a pathway that would help people kind of get onto a pathway of their experience of Judaism being one of creativity and imagination and play and reshaping rather than the experience that I think most of us have had in our Jewish upbringings educations. Let me say that again because my dog barked in our Jewish upbringings in education. So I will try answer the first one. When did it the first time in realize that there's a lot more here is filling a door opened. When a felt that the the other feeling of Kim immediately afterward, what is that I am not allowed to keep it for myself. I absolutely. It's my obligation to make it. No. So whoever needs it? Can have it. It's not an expression of my ego. I happened to be there I happen to be the person who has the I dunno the combination of tools and hold spa. I have kind of a personality defect. They don't house in innate reverence for authority. I mean you could come with a good argument the next day. Okay. Yeah. Except that. A great argument, but just defoe, that someone is Robert not arrive by doesn't mean anything to me so I don't know it's hard. It's a little hard. You know sometimes something something like that. Things like that Landon people you know on just regular people just a regular person not even going to hide. You'RE NOT GONNA try to pretend that I'm a profit or anything like that. No, I am Yale artists. This is the story, but there's also you know the spiritual practices practice instruction was to create vessels for the divine and this does. The other question is you know it's very hard to you have taught art. You can. Try and you know give. Doing. It's not complicated I. Mean it's available to anyone. why it hasn't happened I mean that's something people ask me is that that happened in variations of that have happened. But it didn't take them far enough because the question is not the god God is an obstruction. The question is human relations. and. It didn't go past. You Know There's May feminization of the God language but not. That switch of the human relationship that's the where it's happening. In that's what we've done. Thank you so much Ao Kendrick for joining us hasn't been a fantastic conversation. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I wish I could talk for another ten hours which to plow into. Yes another ten. It'd be awesome. Who knows we'll see. We'll see when the next good opportunity is to have you back on. We'd love to have more of these conversations. Thank you so much and thank you to all of you out there for listening. We hope you've enjoyed this episode as a reminder like Dan mentioned at the top. You can learn more about this project about this Torah top project at Bait. Torre TA DOT Org. THAT'S BE I. T. T. O. R. T. A. H. DOT Org. You can learn more about you and more about the project all sorts, good stuff, and you can contact her and learn what Europe can be in this project moving forward because like she said, this is a collective effort. So thank you for listening. Again, we want to close out this episode in the same. Way that we always do encouraging you to be in touch with us, and there are a wide variety of ways for you to do that. 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