The Health of the Food Industry
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I'm an eerie, and I'm Laurin vocal bomb on I recent trip to Asheville we heard so much enthusiasm and love for the city from the people who spoke with and we felt a too it was pretty infectious these ups. Oh, by the way, are in no ways sponsored or paid for by the city of Asheville, or it's tourism board part of our mission here on safer is to travel interesting places and share with y'all what makes those places interesting, and what we might learn from the lives and lifestyles of the people who live there if it sounded advertise at times, that's because we found a lot there to be praised. But of course, not everything we heard was all MAC and cheese and frothy beer ashville. As city that's booming because of its restaurants and breweries is sort of a microcosm for everything. The American food and beverage industry is dealing with general good and bad in this episode. We wanted to discuss some of those issues, and as part of that what it means to be counterculture. What does that mean that quote at the top was from beer historian and fitn-, Glenn while Asha might have lost some of its freak. It has not lost the reputation for it. We talked about that a little inner overview of Ashlapov sewed, how we along with super producer dealing had these preconceptions of Asheville as a crunchy hippie haven which to be fair, they embrace that a drum circle that y'all blessedly did not make me go to shows up in a lot of their marketing. You're just lucky we had a very limited window for that pinball. Pinball over drum circles any day. I agree. I wish we could have done both. But hey, both percussive v-. That's true. I have considered that. We didn't make it to the drums. Are we saw plenty of evidence of this hippyish nece? I mean, my goodness are Airbnb we haven't shared this detail with y'all yet. I think we mentioned that's like zen rock gardens had. But it also had this mixed media mural above the carport, which was like front and center when you came up the driveway of the eyes of Bhutto sometimes called the wisdom is or the omnipresence is these are big and colorful, and apparently found on everybody's temple in Nepal and also on this carport. Yeah. Every lift driver that picked us up asked. If it was some kind of retriever something, here's an fitting again, you know, I do have numerous hippie friends who are well educated. Interesting people who have gone into farming or distilleries are Bernie's things that used to be much more blue collar type of careers, Warren Wilson college, which is in swan, no is. Kind of a hippie haven college. It's one of those work study colleges and often students will go there. And they'll learn a trade there such as calming are cultivation, and they'll stay in the area. So there is definitely a little of that kinda crunchy hippie aesthetic, which is on the legacy of ashes, crunchy nature. Got it start in the nineteen sixties make sense to me went L. Here's a local historian. Kevin Frazier in the late sixties and early seventies. We had folks move into Asheville out places like northern California. You know, so call flower children, they'd be moving all that. And don't ask a couple of reasons one was cheap to be here. And so for young folks looking for a place to be and maybe they're artists or maybe they were interesting farming or whatever they interested in this job and worked well for that. What infant and Kevin are. Talking about here is the counterculture movement that came up in the nineteen sixties of mostly white people from mostly middle class backgrounds who have access to education money and who used that to promote these anti-capitalist, anti industrial pro environment. Pro mindful, living ideas and ideals, and we did hear time and time again from the folks who were interviewing that big reason, they moved there was because of that vibe. And because it's the sort of vibe that they wanted to bring up their children and the vibe at definitely shaped the food entering seen in the city to make this unique creative artistic healthy, crunchy food scene. It's weirdness depends on villains being willing to participate in it to care about who you're supporting whether your money is going to people who support your causes both in word, and indeed, and there's a whole sense of community around it. And this lends itself to an awareness of social issues that cannot be separate. Fid from the food. We eat and the drinks drink. So we wanted to talk about those today issues of opportunity and access faced by women people of color immigrants and folks with lower incomes. One of these issues is a lack of people of color, especially in positions of power, indie food and beverage industry, we talked about this a lot in our old episodes on tipping gratuity in restaurants, because the American gratuity system is based in post, patient, racism and classism to hear all about that. Check out the episode. It's from December of two thousand seventeen and it's called the not so gratuitous tipping episode. But okay, a quick yet pertinent take away from that there's a four dollar per hour wage gap between white workers and workers of color in the restaurant industry at large due to the types of jobs that each tend to get workers of color are more likely to be lower level positions at lower cost, restaurants, and racial discrimination and tipping only exacerbates inequality and in Asheville. 'presentation of people of color is perhaps particularly stark as we mentioned in our beer soda as of two thousand seventeen the city was eighty two percent white. This is unusual for a southern city if not necessarily an apple Apalachee city, Kevin discussed some of the history behind this. So inherently sexual has swallow African American population even going back to mid nineteenth century history. And part of that had to do that. There was not significant plantation agriculture in western plants, just because landscape, unlike eastern partner with these gigantic forms, but that does not mean there was not slaving western Oakland. That becomes a real misunderstanding. I think sometimes want to skip them be like, oh, yeah. We somehow we're better than that. No. As a region not been better than that in there. But the number was smaller in that. As definitely been part of that inheritance. That set though as a civil war, we were very popular city for free. Mun to relocate to they were drawn to Asheville looking for new opportunities. But one of the challenges that we're very concerned about syllabi are key areas that have begun to see more recent revitalization or new development are adjacent historically African American neighborhoods. And so the gentrification that wraps around that is very much a concerning thing for us in Asheville because we don't want success to come create failure for somebody else not of their own doing either. That's a lot of the conversation today about how do we balance those things in Asheville? I think it's something in meetings things around town. We are talking about how do we as a city? Make sure that it is clear that we are welcoming city for anybody to fund what they're looking for in Asheville, but I think fundamentally cities that are welcoming will become irrelevant this particular question. Of how welcoming southern Appalachian cities are two black and African Americans lies in parallel to the inclusion of other people of color, folks, all sorts of dissents, whether their families have been here for generations or whether they are recent immigrants to the United States. We spoke with marijuana. Ronnie these CEO chef of the Chaipas any restaurant group, and I an region immigrant from India Merlin was quick to express the stark difference between the history and experience folks like himself in contrast to that of black people in America and the south. He said that comparing the two directly is unconscionable. And I was actually really afraid I'd ruin the interview for a minute by asking him about his experience as a generalized person of color, but it turned out, okay? And beyond or building on that difference that he talked about he did say that he sees a shift taking place all across the south marijuana describes himself as a storyteller just as much as a restaurant tour and in his experience, ashville embraces. Stories. What is really interesting to me? And and let you to this conversation that's been happening in the series that have been cooled ballots out the sympathies is that south is changing dramatically and quickly. This myself is I should go as a vici- Mitchell Han SHI Kamar foreign on him. I mean, I'm naming Indian chefs it's just of origin that happened restaurants. Didn't amazing things of south not attempt. Cisco LA not in DC not of you. But in small towns in south Nashville, Asheville booming him, Oxford, Mississippi, you know, the fact that we're not just doing well exceeding, but flourishing and be knowledgeable. What we doing to me is indicative that even what we think of as out is changing. It's not all happy the same time. It's not happening everywhere. But for me, even the tally, ashville is a little bit of blueprint who what I am calling. The New South is going to look like immigrants here this. Economic opportunities. It's affordable houses portable labor concert foetal. You know, Lexington Kentucky is joking fridges Mexican Kentucky because it's the large Mateen's population. That's starting to come to the south. And and I think it's awesome, and amazing and probably scary for some people. But you know, it's a change. So my daughter, you know, she looks just like me she's been here since she was two years old. And as far as she's concerned, if you've asked will you from she'll say. The south, and I think twenty years from now we'll be unusual for someone that looks like me or some various of black. Oh, Brown them from the south and to be completely natural. But whether we are personally individually, welcoming is only one part here, there's another piece of this conversation that often gets left out food writer McKinsey Lunceford has covered the Asheville food scene for thirteen years. So she's witnessed the transformation of the city and the social issues that have dogged it. We have a lot of issues with people finding good employees, which is of course, not not limited to Asheville. Everyone's having a hard time finding good health and. Yeah. Wage issues things like that are the types of things that I write about a lot. We have a we have a very thriving very involved lat next community, and they are making themselves. Very present. In in a very very good active strong way when we're making space for them like people are. Yes, there is rates here in Asheville of. A couple of months ago. And I mean, even undocumented Latin nuts folks came out to pack groceries for the people who were hiding in their homes and members other members of the community came in helps them at a place called beloved house, which has dedicated itself as a sanctuary. It has been disturbing to this this community to see those those rates go on and and obviously the immigrant population has a huge hand in the food that we eat from the fields to the table. Yeah. Thank you for speaking to it is it is such a I think people just don't think about it. I think you're right. I think people don't think about it. And it you may hear that I'm getting a little bit angry over it. To mean. Look, I understand laws, and I understand that we have a need to hold laws, but we also need to. Hey, a gentle. Oil and open-minded look at how important emigrants our to our society as a whole, and then little pockets within our society the restaurant business. The you know, the look around the skyline of Asheville there. Hotels being built everywhere. And they're being built on the backs of immigrants are being cleaned by immigrants. They're being you know. Run by immigrants. It mean they make the world go round, especially a tourist based con me like ashville as important sector of our society. It's the agricultural side of things we are a huge apple growing region, especially in hendersonville outside of Asheville a little bit in. We had farmers whose apples were falling off their trees in rotting in the fields because they went once immigration laws have have been titans in work visas are a little bit harder to see care, and there's a fear element. And I had farmers who were saying I have product just I in. There's no one to pick. It. What do you think that turns into? I mean, do you think that we're all just going to have to get used to paying an actual fair price for tomatoes? That's another part of the conversation. Right. I mean, we are so dependent on cheap labor. This society is so dependent on cheap labor. The south was built on slave labor. You know, and sometimes I feel like we've barely gotten away from that. Let me share a couple more facts from our tipping episode, which is still probably the most angry I've gotten regarding episode. Oh, yeah. Eighty one percent of chefs in America are men and men also hold about seventy nine percent of management positions in the restaurant industry. This means that men hold more of the guaranteed minimum wage and higher paid positions. As compared to women, and especially women of color Kenzi came up through the restaurant industry from dishwashing through line cook through chef and restaurant owner before settling completely into journalism. So she was able to speak to these issues from multiple facets women in the restaurant business. I mean, we do have Asheville has a top female chef I mean, you've heard about like Lee Katie button over say as she gets quite alive attention for our city and rightly so she's talented. Those restaurants are very good. But I struggle to sink of women in the restaurant industry. When some of the asked me, for example, I'm judging a competition soon, and I'm often. And the only woman at these tables, you know, and and the organizer asked me if I could recommend some women in the restaurant industry. I thought if you but they're fairly few and far between now. Now, do I think that's a local thing? No, I Jones, and I have noticed a lot more women in in the kitchen since my time in the kitchen, my time in the kitchen, I I was paid less than than others. And I'm certain of that. And it was not a problem for me at all because I was one of those people who was a little bit. I dunno assertive. Have to be here going you're going to be in the food industry at all probably. But especially as a woman. One more fact for you, the restaurant industry has the highest rates of reported sexual harassment in the country in twenty fourteen survey ninety percent of restaurant workers, both male and female said that they had experienced sexual behavior in the restaurant industry that scary or unwanted. And since seventy percent of servers are women. They bear the brunt of this. It wasn't an issue for me. But I know that other women in the restaurant industry have faced issues of sexual harassment. I mean, it's not limited to the kitchen. It's probably worse in the front of the house because you have people who come in to eat and spend money, and then they had a lot of conversations about this with local restaurant people, and yeah, people come in to eat, and they feel is though they own a piece of you for a little while. And sometimes they add to Cordingley, and I know that that Kersey which were just. Talking about has ejected a customer for touching staff members. Which is great. Yeah. In paid stand for that crap. I mean, they they're very very forward thinking over there at Kurtz, hey, they have in HR department. They have systems in place. So that people can report things when they happen anonymously without fearing for their jobs, but not many restaurants have those sort of structures in place, and we live in a town full of very small independent restaurants without HR departments. So, you know, draw your own conclusions. It it is it's part of a national and probably global culture yet is changing, but we more slowly certainly mentality's changed. It's such an ingrained -ture kind of unfortunate. We're totally, unfortunately, rather, go full speed ahead that sucks. That's not great. I mean that having been said I do have. To add that you know, that this does seem like a respectful space ashville is very progressive. And so that works out in our favor. I mean, again, I'm not saying that that eliminates sexual harassment, but I would say that in general, the chefs in restaurant people who I know are a fairly enlightened much it's kind of hard going into interviews sometimes as an infotainment podcast or it's easy in some ways because you're excited about the work that people are doing and they get to share what they're excited about. But I think I speak for the whole team here, we worry. Sometimes there were only getting the bright side of the story. And I mean, we're not Barbara Walters. We do try to ask meaningful questions. But sometimes you only have thirty minutes with someone. Sometimes you only have ten we were lucky on this trip to have time and have people who are part of this community because they are reflexive and open. And working in this industry is rough. We need to talk about mental health in the food industry, and we'll get into that. After a quick break for word from our sponsor. Hi, I'm Daniel am. And we're here to tell you all about our brand new podcast, Daniel and hor. Hey, hey, explain the universe in this podcast. When I talk about a lot of things mostly about physics and the universe all those big mysteries. Scientists a lot of things left to figure out even pretty basic stuff. Like, what is space what he's time? What is stuff made out of which movie gets time travel? Right. That's an important quest. Are we alone in the universe is a black hole? Anyway with inside a black hole. That's what is about. It's mostly me and hor horrific on stuff, we find fun and fascinating and hilarious to look for Daniel and more. Hey, explained the universe. We'll try to cover just about everything in the universe. Everything. Every dullish the whole shebang from cats planets two black holes and time parties. And we're back. Thank you sponsor. Yes. Thank you. So the sort of things becomes he was describing it was wonderful to hear and see and feel that sort of care and respect being spoken to. But it's bittersweet that is pleasant as it was to hear. It was still a pleasant surprise. The restaurant industry is hard on folks. This is something I've seen personally growing up. My father worked as a chef for most of my childhood and young adulthood, and it's something that was really made public back in June. When Anthony bourdain committed suicide, yes. So mental health and substance abuse. It's an ongoing discussion within the food industry. And this is something the Kinsey has written about as well restaurant industry itself. Does kind of lend itself to a culture where you're taking advantage of the mind altering substances around you more often, I think that. One of the shafts in that article that I wrote about substance abuse after in the wake of Anthony board aids suicide one of the chefs mentioned that most people who work regular schedules when they get off work. There are a lot of things open their churches. There are, you know, their grocery stores, there are lots of wholesome places to go. But when you get off work at midnight. There are only a few places that are open, and they are not churches. So you know, when you get off at midnight and your wound up because you've been you know, cooking for hundreds of tourists. You're you're probably going to go get a pint of beer and followed that with more. So and then heavy drinking lends itself to anxiety, which lends itself to more drinking. So you get in this kind of catch twenty two. I mean, the restaurant business is intense in it. It'll try to anybody did you rink trust me. Yeah. And it's and it's also part of the, you know, like, you wanna try everything. And and it's it's almost rude to turn down your your colleagues to to say say like, oh, no, I'm not going to try this product that you just made that you've been caring about for the past few months or few years yet. I also think that like I was saying alcohol can be tanks ID, there's a lot of of mental health issues that spring up when you're living very office it life from us people when you're working on weekends and you're working on holidays, and you're working at night, and that sort of thing that can lend itself to depression as well. So there are a lot of things involved in the restaurant industry that when when combined create fertile ground for substance abuse, mental health issues thing these kinds of mental health, substance abuse issues, sexual harassment, deep serious topics are on the table right now in our culture in general, and they're difficult to. Ignored. I think a lot of alive. Chef's restaurant owners are looking internally and some of them are setting up systems. I mean, I mentioned Katie button. From Kerr Tate has a program where they do pay for their employees to go get counseling. Several times, and they also pay for partner of any kind to, you know, a roommate to go with them as well. So that's a really great way to address us a strep step in the right direction. And also there I see a lot of restaurants trying to acts more like the legit businesses that they are, and it's less of a pirate ship culture, these days and more of a this is a business, and we are professionals. And and I think that may go hand in hand with the rise of celebrity chefs kind of validating away restaurant business as a profession and people are taking a look at how they're running things and kind of shaping up a little bit. We certainly hope so we do and we've seen folks around the world banned together in these conversations, especially in the wake of Dane's death. To learn more get help a great resource is chefs with issues dot com, there may even be part group. In your area. There's one here in Atlanta that I'm hoping we'll get to speak with soon in the meanwhile, let's expand our view from the food industry itself to the larger issue of nutrition and food security Asha is also trying to find ways to deal with hunger in the region. According to the US department of agriculture eleven point eight percent of American households were food insecure. As of two thousand seventeen this means that those households lack access to enough food to provide an active healthy life for all of its households members, and this can be to a number of factors from poverty and job security to whether or not you have easy access to a grocery store or some other outlet that sells fresh proteins and fresh vegetables, North Carolina was one of the eleven states that came in worse than the national average at fourteen point four percent food, insecurity. It's a national problem. But something that local people are coming together to solve here's to helm Asheville. Food critic one thing that people may be. Surprised about is that ashville is in the middle of a part of the country that has one of the worst rates of hunger, especially food, insecurity, people who don't know where their next nutritious meal is coming from. That's a big issue in North Carolina, western North Carolina. And so there's a lot of charities that try to distribute food there's Mana foodbank. There's welcome table which is run by the Heywood congregation, and they feed about a thousand people week a free meal and all of the restaurants participated, welcome table. So like literally the best restaurants town will be cooking meal the Heywood congregation for all of the people to enjoy. And also, there's a great one called food connection. That's run by a local organization called dig local. And they are dig localism amp. Then you use it to find out. What's happening every day Asheville, but they have a charity club food connection. And what they do is they work with caterers restaurants when they had leftover food at the end of the night that still hot still good. They wrap it up. Call a taxi in taxi brings it to a shelter. We've talked about this spirit of collaboration in Asheville, and that extends out to helping folks jail Rattigan CEO French broad chocolate shared her experience with this one of my favorite examples of collaboration in the restaurant industry is an organization that serves meals to people who need to eat every week. It happens at a church. It's called the welcome table. And everybody's welcome. No questions asked there's no religious agenda. But it's a project that is filled with community and love and dignity rather than being set up as like a soup kitchen line people sit down table in there served a meal by volunteers, and they get to enjoy food and others company. And there was a local restaurant on. Town that established an initiative for the local restaurants to participate in that project. So a lot of us. I don't even know how many how many restaurants are participating. But we either partner with another restaurant or a restaurant handles themselves in we feed, you know, five hundred people in a day, and it's not anyone's pet project. It's it's a collaboration, and it wouldn't be successful. Without everybody's contribution in participation ashville is looking into other creative ideas to combat hunger. As well, Stu told us about one such venture championed by farmers soon. Neil patel. He has a company called patchwork urban farms, then he works with people who have large front or back or side lawns that live in urban area. And he will call him in a sesser property for farming. And then his people will until the soil plant, the plant's harvest, the plants give you a portion of the produce give a large portion of it too. Free to neighborhoods that have limited access to fresh food, and then sell the rest of restaurants and this relates to something else. That ashville is working on sustainability. We'll get into that. After one more quick break for word from our sponsor. Without new evidence. In two thousand four in a tiny town. A young woman named Rebecca Gould was brutally murdered nearly fifteen years later her killer is still on the loose. Tetra suspects, work everywhere. So we have already talked to the killer. It's just really surreal out in walking around like. So much here. I left Arkansas became an investigator. And now I'm coming back with my team to finally get Justice for beca. Two is out there. I'm Katherine Townsend, and this is Helen gone. Now available on apple podcasts. We're back. Thank you sponsor. Yes. Thank you sustainability and reducing food waste to the whole head detailed movement. It's a movement taking place on a national level as well. But Stu put it this way. A belief in an ideology that has become so ingrained in Asheville food scene. That's just part of our seen. Now. It's so much part of the scene that there is a whole company devoted to helping restaurants legally for Menton pickled things that would otherwise go to waste, but it's also so much part of the scene that according to Jamie, Egger, a fourth generation farmer over at hickory nut gap farm that it's in some ways circled around to being problematic again, take for example, the trend of serving weird parts they're not going to waste, but it's funny because some shifts one feature local item, and so they'll they wanna do like appetizer like piggy or something like that. Which is great. But it's also like, wait. You can't just let figures like we also have other. Sort of this whole movement towards using the whole animal, which is great. But it's like all of a sudden figures become the most valuable piece on the animal, and you're like, this is we we still have to move the whole pork chop and everything else too. So that was a funny moment. That guy just all he wants piggy years. Okay. What do you do about that which I guess brings us to a pressing question? Our original question from the top of this episode can weirdness last in a town based on supporting local on being conscious on staying weird. Once you start marketing that once Taurus come in. And the population starts spending is it stable or does it just become a marketing ploy for big business here in our home base of Atlanta. It's on our minds lot. The folks we spoke with an ashville noted the change that's happening. But they were pretty hopeful about it. Here's what Murphy and Chris Bauer from ETA rind dilatory. I think that there's been good in bed with the changes. And there's been a lot of like blooming entrepreneurship that wouldn't be allowed in a place that wasn't flourishing and a lot of people kit to follow their dreams here. Do really cool stuff because we do have a lot of growth here. And I think that you know, life is about adapting to change. And I've seen it. Go a lot worse and another places than it has national. Again, I think it's because of the people here that have sort of helped God and build the city and the surrounding counties. Jamie talked about those opportunities to guide and build and not just your business. But the industry is a whole, you know, when we first started we were thinking about grasp that beef and how we can do a good job raising. These cattle and focusing on better systems for Cal in halls and raising hogs outside developing those systems, but let's exciting to me is that we can not only have a neat little story here at the farm, but also because we've done the hard work of marketing, and branding and sales, which drives business that we've been able to really think about how do we change agriculture and the in the way people think about food and are much more comprehensive manner. How do we change farming? And how do we? Rethink how farmers produce because like feedlots and all the big agriculture stuff came about just because of the business opportunity that was there. Somebody started figuring it out. And and so now people, you know, there's a whole nother generation of people asking questions about how does this get done? How do we sort of understand the impact of our eating when I need stay murder or something? What what does that look like all the way through back to the farm back to the environment? And that's those are not questions that people have historically pushed on. And so now, it's like, let's let's get that all that consideration. Which is the main thing. We all eaten drink. We're all connected in that way. It's a shared experience, and they are human stories behind these experiences. It's good to remind ourselves of that. I think the better the food industry is for those working within it and for the planet. The better for all of us as consumers we can push for change. Here's Jamie again. There's more to sort of just an item on the show. You know story back there. There's a people back there, and we all impact each other and the sort of old paradigm of regulating, the correct behavior is ineffective, and obviously to some degree. And so we've gotta find a way to build accountability, and integrity and all the things that we want with food with products all that kind of stuff consumer drive in that at the end of the day all day long, and that Matt so they're buying choices matter we. We can't take the humanity out of food. It's part of our history. And a part of our future will leave the last word from her one. I find that the food is inseparable from the history of humanity. I mean almost everything we've done species are settling down into small societies instead of being pneumatic it moving away from hunter gatherer into more agricultural lifestyle. Our settlements of the banks wherever's our shores are your mountains. Values are civilizations. Are wars are expirations Columbus ceiling to find the Americas? It's all been driven by food by looking for it by you know, finding new sources for it by finding new experiences flavors food, and along with that sort of religion, you know, which to go so into twain that you know, you can't separate the two when he studied food food. You realize studies history of who humans are and how we got to where we got today. And even now, I mean, I believe that who'd is culturally shaping us. I mean, I think, you know, whether it's Instagram was social media or delivery services or delays and technology. It's still always seems to find a way to center around food. So that would be my takeaway got ours too. Yeah. That's a pretty good. Takeaway fought. And speaking of thoughts if you'd like to get in touch with us, we would love to hear from you. Our Email address is Hello at saver pod dot com. We're also on social media, you can find us on Twitter Instagram and Facebook at saver pod. We really do hope to hear from you. Thank you to all of our guests today into land Taylor and the whole team over at explore ashville dot com for helping us find them and our co executive producer Chris for house yoda's for helping us find them. Thanks as always to super producer Dylan for making our jobs, easy, and our other executive producer. Julie Douglas for all of her good advice. Thanks to you for listening. And we hope that lots more good things are coming your way. Hello earth. Actually. Hello universe. Yeah. We are here to tell you that. In addition to Tuesdays and Thursdays when you can get your regular stuff. You should know. Just as you always have the last ten thousand years, a wait ten years ten years. We're now adding a whole new episode of a spin off show, that's really the same show. It's just a shorter episode called short stuff. Yeah. We said, hey, sometimes we have topics that maybe aren't robust enough to fill out a full forty five minutes stuff. You shouldn't episode though. We don't want to shortchange these topics these people, and so let's just make them short. Get over here. Short stuff and jumping feet, right? Exactly. It's kind of like the Roper three's company. Yeah. Or it's kind of like aftermath to mesh exactly. Although it's like neither one of those because those were regular links. This is shorter everybody. So you can go to apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Or just look forward in your feet every Wednesday from your friends, just choking, Jerry stuff. You should know shorter is sometimes better.