#26: What To Do When Your Child is Out of Control with Robyn Gobbel
Welcome to the adoption connection podcast where we share resources by enfor adoptive and foster moms. I'm Lisa Qualls. And this is Melissa corkum. Don't worry we get it. And we're here for you. Good morning, Lisa happy Valentine's Day week. But good morning to you, Melissa guess, this is kind of a fun little fun little thing. I don't know. Do you do much to celebrate Valentine's Day? I don't I mean, I kind of feel like all the holidays are just the disruption to something extra something extra to worry about. I'm such a Scrooge. I'm so sorry. I I don't know. So I also even before I was a stressed out trauma crisis. You know late and mother. Downturns day. I think. Was just not in Patrick's and my wheelhouse. Like, that's not our thing. He we kinda both about like it was like an invention of hallmark and everything that we would like to do for each other just was more expensive. I don't know. So we don't do it a ton actually at all. Well rested. I have never made it a really big holiday for ourselves. But I usually do something for the kids, and I grew up with a mom who was really good about the small holidays. So like a Ballantine's day. We'd always get a pair of like Valentine socks or something like that. And you know, when things were they're very hardest that all fell away, and I was not good at all. But any holidays Amir barely made it through Christmas and birthdays. But now in the last few years, I usually do something like odd by this little cellophane bags. You know, an all tech little treats often just little treats in it or the girls. I might get what am I got in that maybe socks or, you know, just little small things, but I don't do a lot. But I do think it's like a little teeny bit of joy. So and we need more of that. So yeah, I'll do a little something. I haven't figured out. It's almost here's I'd better. Get it together yet. My mom was also really good at the little. Holidays and Valentine's actually, when she always liked to do gingerbread houses, we never it was always too busy at Christmas. So she would always buy them on clearance after Christmas. And then we would decorate it with Ballantine's candies like the little red hearts and can't you know, leftover candy canes from Christmas 'cause they were red and Wii. And so do you have a lot of memories of that growing up? And there was of course, there was the year where she thought it was a good idea to make a gingerbread house from scratch like we rolled out the hot out the things. And anyway, so so it's not idea. Yeah. I really liked that idea because you know, homes families are about love, and you could. Yeah, I think that you need idea. I I did not know that. So I did not buy any gingerbread houses on clearance. But it's good idea. I might try that in the future. Yeah. Next year. There's always next year. Lisa. Yeah. Oh, yeah. These holidays do keep coming around. So well, I'm really looking forward to hearing today's interview I have not gotten to listen to it yet. But I'm really looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to sharing it with our listeners. You wanna tell us a little bit about it? Yes. So we're welcoming, Robin. Go back to the podcast this week. We recorded part one last week, and she did a fabulous job of just helping us. No, different ways to regulate through sensory movement and place. If you didn't get to listen to that had backed episode twenty five you can get there by going to the adoption connection dot com slash twenty five. But you know, there's kind of this lingering question about will. It's all fighted while to have some things that we can build into our schedules that help our kids develop those brain skills. But what about in the moment? You know, what if are we don't have those comments those regulated moments? What if it feels like we're always in the moment? And until we can't get ahead of it. So Robin was kind enough to come back and address that topic which I'm super excited about because I will tell you. And I think I said this when I talked to her that that is probably the number one question or one of the questions that we get when we're chatting with moms and kind of asking what their biggest needs are. And what do we do in the moment? You know, we all know what to do in our heads in mementos of sanity and our kids did too. You know, our kids can often say while I should use my words, or I should accept pick a choice or accept a compromiser ask for a compromise. But then they're lid, flips an all goes away just like that. So I'm really excited to hear what Robin has to say. Hi, robin. Welcome back this week. We're super excited to have you we talked. So thoroughly last week about the things that we can kind of do everyday sensory things that are really doing the building blocks of helping our kids brains. Get more to everyone them to be. And you had said at the beginning of that. You know, there's things that we can do kind of ongoing, and then they're also kind of in the moment, which I made my ears perk up. I was telling you before we start recording that when families come to us. That's probably the number one asked question is like it's all finding good. But what do we do like actually in the moment? Or like what if something doesn't work? I don't know. There's so many questions rolling to my head right now. So I guess in like, what would you want people to start off with the basic understanding of an remember last week? If you didn't listen to it, you should jump back Robin gave us a fantastic, you know, quick primer on can a brain structure. But so what's kind of important to remember in the moment here? So I wanna like kind of preface all of this with of same thing for me. Like the most the biggest question, I get the most frequent question. I get is what we do in the moment. And I get that. And I get that. That's the scariest part in feels like the most urgent part in an address that. And I just want to like the we've a little caveat like truly at my core. I believe it's all things were doing outside the moment. And so I want you to try is you're listening to this. I want everyone to try to kind of like hold both of those things is truth. Like, I totally understand that we need in the moment idea of what to do. And it really is most important that we focus on all of those moments outside the in the moment piece. So then the next piece of that is. The piece of we have to figure out ways when our kids are losing their minds to not lose our minds with them. And like if there's it before we could even begin to talk about a strategy of what to do in the moments that he's has to get tackled. I cause any in the moment strategy. That's the livered inside chaos or inside our own severe fear responser own severe trauma response. It's just not going to work like there's no way around it. And so really looking at you know, what are my triggers? What is my kid? You like what can I expect? What what do? I know my life is really like. And what really freaks me out makes me kind of lose my mind enjoying my kid right there too. Because all of us have them. I do too in really thinking about like, okay. I asked parents to ask themselves. This question. Do I have to call nine one one right now in the answer is no then you have a moment to connect with yourself and get grounded in regulated in. And the more you practice that shorter time it takes like it doesn't take doesn't have to take a half an hour. It doesn't have to take leaving your kid or eventually I really feel like that's the bar. And sometimes the answer to do. I have to call nine one one is. Yes, do that. Right. Like use your fight flight freeze energy to do it. It's supposed to do and that's to intervene in a crisis and keep everyone safe right in. So if somebody's being physically violence, or, you know, your your safety is at risk than just let your brain dude at supposed to do to keep everyone safe. But if the answer is no like, you're kids screaming in Cussing at you or doing something, that's definitely bad or destructive or maybe even not safe, but isn't elevated to like somebody's really imminent danger here than at the very first thing we have to do is go like in what's happening. Whereas my healing. You know, can I take one seconds ago? Take a good brass with the great ex- HALE and really connect to our own light green zones, thinking brain like the highest part of our brain were we can then make a good choice about what to do next. But also deliver that intervention from a place where that child is experiencing the say incentive dangerous because if we're just regulated our kids are experiencing us as dangerous in. There's no quote that they're gonna come. It's regulation. I don't know. If you remember what this exact statistic is. But I know that when you first joined us for your first step aside talking about things with kids, you talked about, you know, how our kids take forever like eleven bits of extrinsic there. Take it in like thousands tens of thousands of bits of intrinsic data. And so. The the explicit versus implicit right? Like all like what I'm saying? With what we can concrete the attend year is the limited amount of data. That's coming into our brains. Like right now, you're hearing my words talk we're on a video screens or looking at each other. We all this exit data. We can consciously intense. You an NFL same time. They're yes. There's eleven million bits of unconscious underneath that. We are processing so. Yes. The we have to do more than just think about words were saying in be very attentive to the way that were being I think that's so important to remember because we can't really good at saying. The like, I'm here for you. Hear your choices can come have a compromise. But sometimes it comes out so frantic. 'cause all we want. We just want to stop. The love to stop. That's what we're thinking and feeling all of our like eleven billion bits of instruments data. But we're like, okay. What can I do to help you? You know? Yes. In Raleigh office about is just noticing like going like, wow, I'm kind of freaking out here. Like it sounds. So it's so simple as complicated off the same time. But so much regulation comes through just noticing and sometimes if it's appropriate actually saying that out loud like just match it's happening. I'm like, oh my gosh. You freaking out, and I'm starting to feel like I'm gonna freak out here too. Right instead like naming it ourselves all things you tell our institute name to team at. Breath. Like we wanted to, you know, all of those things ourselves I in in we have to because then if we're if we're offering like like, a verbal redirected like are you asking you're telling or on nudity birds, please ARCHE as compromise or for moving to a more. When I'm gonna talk about like, a more regulation ace up experienced help regulate if we do that in a frantic way or in scared way, or or in this way, again of not honestly, just get it to stop. It's just a normal human experience. I think he could feel like this is needs to stop without feeling this like frantic fear thing. Young your version of your life in reality. Right. Like this season stop. This is extremely uncomfortable. I wanted to stop right now. I hate this. But without like, see if you can have those very true thoughts of honoring your own experience without it becoming frantic or joining the dysregulation energy. That's underneath it or the fear. That's like like you said, you know, stop and think do I need to call nine one. But sometimes that it needs to stop comes with. And if my kid isn't learn how to stop like, if we keep having these episodes in the grocery store, my kids going to be in jail by the time these eighteen like, yeah. So we joked we start future tripping, you know, that that's a sign like no this about ourselves as soon as we go to that Mike it's going to jail. I'm going to have to send him books to read in jail, or what are know we go to this place. That's just a sign all that is assigned is that we've left the present moment. And I can't do anything to help my kid if I'm not here in the present with him. That's all I mean, it's it's like, oh, that's my sign. I started to go. Like, I'm bailing him out of jail. That's a sign with. Present moment. Okay. Comeback to present here now because my kid needs me here. Now, you might me what he's a job to you. But in this moment. He needs me right now. Yeah. Feature tripping is just a sign that were distributed in the present moment when I love what you said about even just the noticing and using other things that we tell our kids sees themselves on ourselves because sometimes we go immediately to what does my kid need. What's the communication behind the behavior and the kids Centric? Yes. Yes yet. But are it has the behavior? So that makes sense. But and we talk a lot about this year at the adoption connection to it's kind of one step ahead of the game. Like, you kind of have to start with yourself. Like do I need a drink of water or hyper teen snack? Do. I do. I need to use words like all could very much apply to meet like did. I not get enough sleep west thing way. Yeah. And if your kid isn't like rowing things that you you can do all those things. Right. Like, you could say like, hey, you know, what I'm going to posit? We're gonna come back to this in a second like sometimes kids are disrupted, but they're not. So. Dysregulates that you could absolutely do that. Sometimes he can't he can't pause for hyper teed snacker meeting. More than a. Okay. Because again, like if you think back about what we talk show, the brain. Last time is like I need the energy. I need that energy in my body. I need some sympathetic arousal. So that I'm attending to what's happening. But as soon as I go fear based I'm starting to lose connection to my prefrontal cortex. And now, I'm just not making good choices based on all the information that I know about how to help my kiddo. Right. So I want it's okay to have energy. I've never tried to convince people to stay calm through these things. Right. Like, it's okay to have sympathetic energy. It's okay to feel like like this has to stop right now. It's okay. To even say this has to stop right now in some situations. Right. I'm not asking for call. I'm only asking for regulated. How do we know the difference in? What permission can we give ourselves because I do feel like that's a really high bar in some of those moments are. Parents to stay calm, and I'm a high energy person you too at my that my call like my column is not everyone else's calm. So could talk about the difference between calm and regulated in terms of like the energy level because I think that's really free. Yeah. Yeah. It would it be. Okay. If I like walked you through in you may if it you anyone else who's is trained with me before may have seen or heard reduce before. But just like thirty seconds experiential that will help the listeners feel the difference in their nervous system. Yeah. So I want to preface this with if you're doing something that requires your tension like driving. Listen in come back to this later. But if you're listening in a place where you can just pause for second in really like get connected to your body in. He really hear my words without multitasking do that like just get a little comfy in your chair check in with your body? We're gonna take you through just a really brief thirty second exercise that will help you embody the difference between regulated not regulated. And then we can apply that to regulated with energy k. So I'm going to repeat a word. This isn't I did not make up this experience the experiential when I'm gonna I'm gonna repeat a word. And as I repeat that word, I want you to notice what's happening in your body. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Imperfect. When listening what should take a breath? Good luck exhale just kind of like all of that energy. And just notice for second. What happened in your body as I repeated that word? And I want you to notice what happens next is. I say, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. You can everybody's just take a breath. Longer here. Just notice what was happening. Due Melissa that you might even sharing that experience was like. You have the like I'm wearing near buds because we're recording talking to you. And like coming in at the same point in my body the nose like head down my body like weighty, and like almost a little oppressive and then the yeses like escaped like up. My body was a much shorter journey. Just because I have you know, they're coming in at like right out. It was very free like I felt much lighter. Yes. Yes. You're describing and most people do when I do this big groups all tell me how. For them. You're describing difference between like a closed in reactive state of the nervous system. Macdill on your center on versus the other state of our nervous system of open in receptive of MacDill off in it really is of binary system. Like, it's either on or off either might make the less on closed in reactive reminding was off in not more, open and receptive. Now, of course, if Mima goes on if there's it's like a dimmer switch, right? Like it's on a tiny bit or it's on a ton. Right. But it is just an on off system in dimmer that goes along with it in. So think about a time where you would have needed Simpson pathetic energy in it wasn't because you were in afraid some people talk about going to a sports game in being an audience in. It's like ten seconds to the end. And you know, it's like something super exciting is happening. Everybody's change. Cheering tearing teacher, or you know, I've I'm outside shooting hoops with my kid, and we're having fun right exercising. I've got sympathetic energy going there's active activity in my system. I'm not calm. But I am not distracted. I am not at risk are becoming just regulated. Really, right. Does the difference set makes it does? So like almost a sense of control, right? Like, so I'm at a sports event. You know, it's very, you know, down to the wire like the energy is high. But I'm not gonna make a decision that I'm gonna regret like my energy on. I'm still in control versus like a MiG on full force like my energy's, high my fear is high and I'm doing things that I probably wouldn't do if my brain was stopping me. Right. I mean, you're really talking about the ability to stay present with energy or not, right? Like, if I'm if I'm having a lot of energy, but I'm still fully engaged in my brain. And I'm having a lot of presence. Yes. I making choices about what to do. I mean dance eagle says regulation contains the ability to both monitor and modify I can check I can notice what's happening for me. I can change it if needed if I'm at a sports game in everybody's yelling screaming and cheering. I can monitor and modify that if I need to I don't need to modify it because everybody's doing the same thing. It's socially procreate. If I'm at church, I'm all of a sudden like what? I might meet Siddhu like monitor. Whoa. Like not appropriate for the situation. Right. So it's not about it's not just regulated per se. It's just not appropriate. I need to modify it, right and modify. That's because I'm still maintaining regulation, even though I have a lot of sympathetic energy. Yeah. So that's where we can be with our kids. If if I'm with a kid who has sympathetic energy going in. But there fear based in there yelling like they're like their energy is big. It's okay. For me to stay energetic. Just have to make sure I'm doing it from a place of regulation, not fear. And that's about noticing how those two things feel different in your own body. So is it helpful than when we do kind of match our kids energy to help them start. Like, do we almost need to match energy because they're not recognizing us with all their sympathetic energy. If were to low energy, yes. We as humans. We really need the experience of feeling mirrored in like gotten in seen 'em part of how we help people feel that way. Is we match their energy, right? Something about a tiny baby. Right. Who's like laughing really hard or something rightly his a lot of sympathetic sympathetic energy going. We get in there with that sympathetic energy. We're like, oh my gosh. You're cuter Ah-ha or whatever as opposed to. This is just the most precious baby. Right. Me matched the we mirror them. So they feel seen in Felton known the other idea. Now, this is just I don't know if this is the scientific recruitment per se, but what I experienced is that the if we want to help our kids come into regulation, we have to be closer to them. Regulation wise. Right. So if I've got super high energy sympathetic kiddo in I'm working hard to recall in really quiet down here. I'm just too far like my nervous system in. They're nervous. Don't are way. Too far in can't catch me. Right. It's too much of a gap to bridge. Yep. Okay. So we're in the moment with our kid or noticed our own action, our own energy level were noticed dairy action, and or energy level. So then what? So then it really depends on how you're assessing the level of their dysregulation. I am thinking about the brain about like is like a mild distribution where I could almost respond with just in like redirections. So I think about TV are I kind of Q like, oh, hey, buddy. Are you asking her talent? Let's try that again. Or, you know, we're still staying. I'm staying regulated. I'm seeing a gauge I'm actually communicating to this kid, my belief about them, which is that. I know they're pretty awesome kid. They could do it. Right. If they wanted to right, right? Like, you're not even if they wanted to. But then I know they have the capacity to do it. Right. That they're not just a bad kid. They could just ask again, you know, that's kind of like intro level dysregulation, disrespects Rousey nece. I have almost thirteen year old in we're doing this awhile. Because he's not a complex trauma kid, but he is have his brain on fire right now. Right with everything that's happening for him with adolescents creeping up and so I'm getting lots of Maui mild disrespect in cop. So I'm constantly all right, buddy. Know, but my point mostly that I'm staying in a regulated state of my nurses. Right. Like, I don't move to. You cannot talk to me that way you need to stop that right now in ask more politely. It's not so much words. It's the energy underneath the words. I could say like, oh, man. We can't talk to each other like that in this house. Let's try again like almost the exact same words, but with way different energy in. That's just that difference between that close, nurses. Don't in that open one. That's all that is yet that playful engagement is so powerful I stand at that. But yeah, I just figured out. I'm a seven on the ground which were supposed to be really fun. But I think playful, okay, I think I take what I mean. I mean, interesting practice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay. So that goes to another point which I think I do play full engagement, well like the first thousand times, so and I was just talking to someone about the other day like it's the ability to take each incident as an as its own like every time our kid is mouthy to us. It's still just nothingness. It just feels like not just nothingness because it's might be mouth penis every stinking day. Well, for sure I have two thoughts to that is one. That's just continuing to do our own work on our own stuff. Right. There were not when things happen repeatedly. We start to lose access to our prefrontal cortex. And then we start to dip into making new meaning out of their mouth Innis. Like this kid hates me. This kid is disrespectful. I'm a bad. Mom. I can't even my own kid. I can't let my talk to me like this. Or that makes me about. Like we start to fall out Haro when things happen repeatedly. That's just being. So that's continued work on checking checking in with ourselves. But also, I don't think we say it was enough to give ourselves for mission to sometimes like forgiveness, maybe to to just be human sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes thousand in one brood nastiness gets a rude nasty response back from us right now. And I remember when my kid was little like three inches talking to a mom in my mom grew. And who was beating yourself up over yelling at her kid? And I'm like, you know, sometimes what happens when you're a pain in the butt for a long time. Is that people yell at you, right? That's just life. We can't. We don't want to aim for that. But when it happens to be like, I'm like, oh, man. I just was human. Yeah. In our kids actually need that experience to our kids need that. That's like like you said like that's gonna be real life. Like, if you're a jerk to all your friends, like they're going to stop talking to you or they're gonna have or they might punch you or. Yeah. So we we follow it up with repair and omen. I'm sorry. Yell at you. I wish I had an on working, hard, whatever. Whatever whatever who we have to really like ourselves from it should just be human not right to this. This like held space. And I think you said this before like if we could get it ready third of the time mess it up a third of the time. And then like spend the other third of the time repairing the third that we must stop. Yep. But I think that is key like that to give ourselves the grace 'cause we all were human. You know, not none of us are superwomen super parents. You know, the whole nine yards. We all come with our own stuff. But then also not to take the liberty of that mess up and be like, well, you deserve that there. There is repair of like gosh, you know, I'm human. I have I have to give myself the grace to not carry the shame and guilt of that long term. But I also have to recognize that I could have made a better decision and says to repair that with my child, right? You're talking about passion. Yeah. Her our humanity. Well, and I think that's hells our kids so much too. Because you know, we're talking about what happens in the moment and some kids feel so much about that moment. So when we had that same kindness with ourselves than they can have the same kindness with themselves at the end of something like this is that kind of translate. So then if those kind of more cognitive playful their cognitive, we're still trying to get their most cognitive part of their brain in give them opportunity to just fall into regulation and not make a big deal out of it that doesn't work. What you've learned is my kids more just regulate than I initially assessed. Let's it and so then I go pretty quickly to using a more regulated or regulation based like movements based or maybe connection based approach. And so at that requires parents to do is caused on immediate misbehavior, right? Insa- inside my head like, okay. This thing that my kids doing is really bad. And I have to address it, and they need to know that they can't do it. And they need new ideas what to do instead. But their way they are past the point of being able to learn any of that right now. And so I'm going to make my focus just on. How do I get back in regulation with his kid? How evacuate connection with this kid could go? They're kind of like, you could go either way you could go into this either way like through movement or regulation or through connection member or maybe sometimes both. And then after that you come back to the teaching piece. So for me at my house that you still look like when my kid was younger, you know, he was starting to get super just regulated maybe about like homework or chores or practicing his insurance. You know that would look if I was being good. If I was regulated. I'm like, well, buddy. We need to. Let's take a break in go go outside and run around the house story best or why don't you go shoot hoops for five minutes. And then I wouldn't even say then come back to this. Because that's is regulating, but you know, or near simul, I'm gonna look for movement ideas movement ideas that my kid likes. Right. So be smart enough. Your kid hates getting on a scooter at Anessa terrible idea for intervention, right? Sometimes it's created a playful because dysregulates kids aren't necessarily gonna do we want them to do. And so we might have to take back to our in about like, hey, let's face it a mailman extra repasts. It's you can win. Right. So instead of like, hey, I think you need to take a movement break because you're very regulated. Right. Like, we have to be a little bit creative. And see if we can move them into some sort of moves that a thing it could be as simple as smaller movement like sucking in. So for me that's offering something through a straw. Snooty I think offering yogurt through straws great idea Colt. You can look at like extreme temperatures to like something really cold again, like really cold smoothie something like that sucking on a lollipop. Some movement doesn't have to be necessarily like gross motor movement. I'm gonna move my whole body. It can really is like smaller century interventions that engage our sensory system. Help our major the feel better help kids reconnect to their bodies race to. There's all these like regulation pieces that happen. I then we can go back to cortex the thing. The thing I see parents struggle with the most well actually worsted at let me say you can also rely on wherever connection based intervention like. Well, let's you know, if it's let's say it's something as simple as sitting down in homework is too overwhelming. Like, let me sit next to you and put my arm around you. And let's tackles homework problem together. Even though you know, you can't is completely capable of tackling this level of homework. Right that we're gonna look Hass all of those reasoning things about connection regulation. Now, if I'm having like, a more of an issue like, you know, archetype streaming us or like it's much more of a intense distribution than really what I'm doing. Is. Staying safe knocks are stink close enough to notice when they're they've come down enough to receive some sort of like engagement from me but far enough away that I'm not getting hurt or they're not hurting me. And I'm I'm just in the environment to like make sure nobody's getting hurts. Right. I'm not doing anything to. Try to make stop like you have to stop growing at me hobbies, right? That's a fear based response. You're not gonna stop doing it in this moment because you tell them to you. We're going to focus on like staying calmer selves, doing whatever Meyer mental changes have to be made in order to keep everyone safe. And that could be leaving the area your kids chucking, heart cleans, it you right there. There's different environmental shifts that we have to do than we stay close enough to notice like the curve the ark of the dysregulation you can start to learn your kids dysregulation signs and notice when has the shifted to if I offered a drink. They would probably say yes if I offered a snack. They would probably say, yes, if I offered like, hey, we are having a really hard time. Let's go shoot hoops throw second. And just forget about this talk about this later that they might actually say, yes. Or you know that if I picked up a balloon in lob. Zett in their direction favorite things to do is to initiate something that could be like a game of catch toss back and forth because of something comes into your visual system. Sensory wise in you, notice a a believe coming at you or a fall coming at your whatever you have handy near you in the house. That's not hard hard. Right. It's not checking something at someone. You're like initiating this thing like we're gonna catch. It almost always lob it back. It's just the way our visual system works. So in a something that starts to initiate, some sort of connection some spirit regulation allow the kids back in the regulation in later returned to hey, like this across this thing that happened. And I know some parents say like my kid will never let that happen. What the my answer to that? Is you just have a kid is not regulated enough yet? This all of us want your appear all of repair and refusing to repair refusing to re-engage in the thing that happened. You know, talk about the thing that happened just means that they're not regulated enough. There's too much shame that comes up around it in a can't yet. So it's just a process how did kids who have attachment struggles. Where because we have a couple kids who fall in this category. And you know, I was connected parenting. All the way, and I in hindsight, thank like, some of the ways that I was trying to connect probably were not helpful because in that moment in there just like relation like that was continuing to scare them. Like, it was that thing. So are there ideas about kind of connecting in a way, that's like just sterile? Enough to not like trigger. Although like intimacy and attachments things will help our kids. Co regulate off of us not too great thing to be aware of that our kids can only receive such connection before that the connections rating. And so I think offering Punic Shen in in these more concrete ways should wonderful way to offer you drink by offering a snack by offering something that you know, is going to help them regulate when what you really want to do is. Punish your consequence them? You know doesn't have to come with. And now sit and talk about our now have a hug or more. Moreover, things at the oftentimes we're longing for because we really want to connect to this kid. We want them to come next back with us. Really? You know, exactly what you're saying. Like, how can I how can I offer connection in state of bailable free connection right while all offering it in a way, that's kind of sterile enough. That the connection other become more distract, and I like the idea of like tossing something back and forth because I feel like that goes back to like the rhythmic thing we talked about last week. And and I like the DEA of understanding how the brain just reflexively will react to that. Because I mean, you kind of just hacking, you know, you're like hijacking the brain in a way that's also super helpful in the situation, which is fantastic. We have also found that, you know, obviously, if your lips flipped their certain things, you can't do without like an reconnecting to your regulation system. And so like we said a kid who had like threatened to run away until we would offer to help count her piggy Bank with are like, oh, if you're going to run away your need some money and then in the process of counting her piggy Bank regulation girl with a while. Yeah. And then you can't do math without like that part. And so it kind of would like, you know, she gets the end. She would have you know. A certain amount. And then you can kind of sneak in one of those other things like, hey, you know, it's been awhile since you've had a snack. You even have a snack before you leave. You know us kind of like played like we played into it. But then kinda played it now. And then eventually like it when it was actually time to quote run away. She's like, oh, maybe I wanna stay for another night. Yeah. I mean, you I mean, you just described beautifully the concept of really leaning into the dysregulation, right? Like, you moved into what was happening for her as opposed to like that. You can't do that. That's ridiculous or whatever. Whatever whatever, you know. Like, you mean into it and allowed found another way to kind of sneak in again, some regulation. Some first of all there's like rhythm that goes back and forth in your relationship. Right. But then counting the counting the coins and again having to do some very simple math engages the prefrontal cortex. So that was instinctually brilliant yet only worked like twice, but it was great. When it worked. I'm actually. Yeah. Like nothing works forever. But but yeah. But now, but it's the concept right now. And we do have to unfortunately, keep chronically being creative because as much as he's kids. I believe Pollino, my chorus which is kids do want to connect. And you want to regulate? The also have another part of them that doesn't because it's just so scary. Right. And so there's this constant inner battle that. These these kids have about like desperate for connection in connection has been one of the worst things that's ever happened to me in this this battle, they're always internally dealing with. Yeah. What do you tell parents who are struggling to remember that like we all know it in our heads? But sometimes when our kids are treating us little burgers for too long. You know, we start like you said before like we start reframing that story of like, you know, they hate me manipulative, they're controlling. So how do we as parents do the work? And maybe it's the answer is just go find a really good therapist area. I don't know. But they're like other simple things that we can do to help. Stay connected to our curious compassionate hearts, without you know, like, yeah. Well, media gopher Risher second to that is go find somebody can be who you can have a reflective relationship with. So that that you trust. So that when you start saying this things like so many people tip. I'm just so sick of this like, LA, blah, blah. There says he wants to connect. That's just crap. You know, you're like you have somebody who will hear that in hold it for you in eventually give you some reflection that you end up Enviro cushion. I just mean like I don't mean like reframing I just need presence presence. So that your brain has its own natural ability to eventually calmed down new. Remember, what your truth is? Right. Doesn't a therapist a great idea? It doesn't have to be a therapist somebody who's willing to be with you in that in give you presents through all that. So that your brain can do it. It's going to do which is essentially home now. That would be like numero dose the next best thing to do. But I also like in my own office. I had like little pieces set in my eyes site. So that I can I have like concrete reminders of my truce. Right. Like, I have framed the, quote, I've never met a true self at haven't fallen in love with you know. So that when I'm struggling to remember a half is very visual like Brazil tation of like. Oh, yeah. I know. That's my truth. I know I don't feel that all right now. But I do I do remember that. That's right truth. And I have a couple other quotes. And I'm a couple of like photographs up in my office that helped me like reconnect with these things that I know are true. And so I can touch in with them and get some regulation when I can't do these other things. Talk to my therapist, actually, reflected listener, or so I I have to actually really believe things connections of biological imperative. We don't lose it. It's underneath there somewhere. Like a have to really believe that an yeah, I've truly been strategic about placing things in my office. So that I can go, and if there is somewhat less than in who I don't know has connection to like a wallpaper manufacturer at once. Create, you know, wallpaper for all of us be greater. Yeah. No, that's great. And I've heard people talk about even like remembering back to the first time. You saw your child's picture. The first time you met him or her because I think those are tend to be the times when we were feeling all the truths that we know. Baby picture for people say that they find like the youngest picture possible. But especially like a crying baby. So that they can have memory like this terrible behaviors just the crying baby crying, baby. Didn't have the motor skills to throw things at me or the linkage to custody out. But this behavior is just a crying baby. And her parents said about could be a helpful way to kind of ground in the moment to. Yeah. Well, thanks for all this tips. Anything to say to parents who feel like they're always in the moment. Yes. Yes. I do. And I when I teach this workshop that I teach have a slide that specifically about that. Like what if this is always your kid? So then I I mean, if you're if you're talking about like constant esscalation to the point of danger throwing cut, you know, like chronic real danger. We're just talking about like this kid needs probably higher mobile care than in home environment in that sad and tragic, but until we can figure out a way some sometimes psycho pharmacologically with meds, or you know, to these columnists can system enough that they can be safe out in real world. We might have to explore some of those kinds of options if you have a kid sick like chronically disrespectful or chronically, you're tainted in they're always like, no, no, no. I don't want to do that. I don't wanna do that do that. My best advice appearances initially, really focused on a again, kind of all that outside the moment stuff. Even though it feels like it's always the moment, but constantly thinking about like nutrition hydration movement. Sensory needs structure predictability. Like all these things that as parents, we could have control or provide in a way that isn't overtly connection based right? But that you know, we're we're wanting to get at their brain that lowest level of like real brain stem stuff food nutrition movement, and then we have to low our bar that comes along with it in remember that like nobody wants to be disrespectful like we're designed to be in relationship with each other. And certainly with the people who are keeping us alive in. So if I can get this child's brain calmed down in these other ways, more appropriate behavior will emerge are real. I have worked with some of the toughest kids on outpatient basis. Right. Like outpatient, therapists, don't work with kids at our escalating, too, impatient. Status because that's not what I offer. But. I'm at a point in my life, where I work for his kids, and I have seen this. I've seen this happen over and over and over again, if we focus on those pieces trust that if I regulate their brain eventually, I will be able to say, hey, try that again, the respect in actually will actually happen. Yeah. I think that's huge to hear the hope to know that we just have to keep doing it in that these things work, and that there is a true self under all the throwing the Cussing than the crazy anti pre sheet that 'cause I know you do work with really hard kids. And you know, there's always like little person in the back of your head. That's like does this work without like Christmas really worked fully worked with kids. Is it going to work with my kid? I'm sure I'm the only kid that this isn't going to work with. I'm I have those questions to those there there to like, oh my gosh. Maybe this kid is is gonna prove me wrong. That's just me being distributors. And I've learned to like notice that some. In the moment. But almost certainly after the moment, and I've got my kids that I deny the hardest kids the I can go like, Nope. If it worked with that kid, no reason to think, it's not gonna work this one. Yeah. Whole robyn. Thank you so much just to be available for to share your experiences to cheer was done. And for just really practical things that we can do that's helpful super definitely always my honor to be here in talking with you in reaching more people. I'm so grateful for your platform. So thank you for having. Well, I just love Robin. She is so gifted and so generous to share all of this with us. I think the thing that I'm hearing from her that strikes me the most is that really before we can calm our child. We have to calm ourselves. And I know that but having more tools is just hugely helpful. And if I know is helping for me is probably going to be helpful for our listeners as well. Yeah. One of the things that I'm not sure came out completely in our conversation. But I have heard her say since then which I just has been rolling around in my mind is the difference between calm and regulation because it's such a route gli, I think a little bit different concepts and such a nuance. But I think one that could be so transformative in the way that we see our kids when they're starting to get out of control. So anyway, I just I've been thinking a lot about that. Yeah. It's definitely something. I am going to apply and really work with with my kids because I think it could help a lot again if you want to connect more with Robin. She does some amazing webinars she's been partnering with a lot of amazing guests you can find her on Facebook under Gobel counseling and her last name is spelled G O B B E L. You can also check out her website and blog at Goba, counseling dot WordPress dot com. If you don't want to remember any of that or driving or washing dishes and up to others and sip water. You can always head to the show notes for links to that in addition to links to part one of this interview as well as where to find Robyn Robbins also been gracious enough to give our listeners a free. Download so you can check all of those things out at the show nuts at the adoption connection dot com slash twenty six. We've come to the part in the podcast that we call mentor moments where we answer listener question. So this week's question is when you have been in the trenches and people say things like you knew what you were getting into or it was your choice to adopt or something similar or they give off that vibe. How does one gracefully respond? Well, I think it's very hard. Sometimes especially when we are just so raw because we are getting everything we've got, and I, you know, I think it's okay to say, yes, we did choose to adopt. And we made the best decision. We could based on everything we knew and you're right. We didn't know what we were getting into you. Because I don't think anything can prepare us necessarily for the degree of trauma, and that our children have experienced in the challenges that they bring it's you know, we we went through a lot of training before we adopted, and I mean, I had a background in mental health, and we went to a specialized training just people adopting with yoga. We did. You know, all the training that our agency wanted us to do and I'm thankful for that. I'm thankful for all of that background. But while I nothing could have prepared us for a child with the. Degree of challenging behaviors that we faced from the very beginning. And I also think it's really easy for people to think that they know how to fix it. Or if they were doing it. They could do it better. But you, and I know all of us my listeners listen to us. We all know that that's not true because you know, what they're not doing it. And I could get a little hot mad here because I've faced a Salat. I mean, I've had people tell me that they when I tried to explain about attachment disorder and complex Phil mental trauma. I've had people tell me that they know all about that. Because they learned a little bit about it when they were in college in the course of their degree, and I just think. Wow. Well, you know, how I learned about it. I learned about it because my child was diagnosed with it, and my child was attacking me. And my child was exhibiting these extreme behaviors. And there's a very big difference for learning a little bit about it and living it, and so I think we can be gracious in that we don't punch them in the noser, you know, say something really really rude. But I also think we can be honest and just say, I appreciate your concerns. But really, we have all the resources and help that we need and thanks for your opinion, or whatever, what do you think Melissa guess ahead? Let sip. No, I I agree with all of that. And we had a similar situation where someone else thought that they knew better than us. Someone who is actually willing to help our daughter emancipate herself from us because she thought we were so much of a problem. And I know I mean, the stories people you just can't make these things up, but I would say again to me being graceful would be not punching them. And I think it actually is super graceful to be really direct because this is a person who may say this to some other family down the road in less. Maybe they haven't encounter with someone who's willing to put their foot down and say, that's not helpful. You have no right to say that the just not helpful in any part. And I think a lot of times people say these things us because our pain actually makes them feel uncomfortable. They are uncomfortable watching us walk this out, and they need to point blame somewhere. And so they pointed back at us like it's our fault because we made that choice. And none of us knew what we were getting into just. That played in simple. And I would just also say I'm a really big fan of foundries. And so I know that this is a really sticky situation, especially if the person who is implicated in the question is a family member. But you know, we have enough on our plates to deal with and we can have loving firm boundaries with people who continued to contribute to our trauma, and our crisis, and it is a long convoluted story, but I actually have had to make boundaries even with my parents, and I love them and we live with them. And but we have a dark moment where we did have to have some really hard conversations. And I had to say this is an okay, and you know, what has come of that now their whole preschools trauma informed. So I think the way that we can do this in a way that preserves relationships, but is also really direct and just like our kids, we could not control how other people respond to us. And so I'm really grateful that my parents, listen and were able to have an open conversation. Maybe you have friends or family members who can't end you can't control that. But I think it's okay to draw down for yourself. And I think with people have faith one of the best things we could see is. You know, what we we prepared us? We could we didn't know this was what it was like in lead. Really appreciate your press. Absolutely. So if you would like to submit a question for a future episode, you can send your question to Email at the adoption connection dot com or our favorite option. Call it in. So we can hear your voice at two zero eight seven four one three eight eight zero it doesn't ring anywhere. It's just literally recording hotline if you would like to talk through any issue, that's affecting your family more closely. We would love to grab a quick chat with you. We offer private coaching your session as always free. You can find more information about that. At it option connection dot com slash services. Before you go. We'd love to connect with you on social media. You can find us on Facebook or Instagram as the adoption connection. Thanks so much for listening. We love having you if you enjoy this episode, please leave a quick review over on itunes. It will help us reach more moms who may be feeling alone. And remember until next week. You're a good mom doing good work. And we're here for you. The music for the podcast is called new day. And was created by Lee Roosevelt.