How To Get Free Press Like Richard Branson...with Cameron Herold


Welcome back to the Mike. Dillard podcast where we help entrepreneurs like you get the knowledge and skills that you need to bring your dreams to life while gang today, we're gonna talk about one of the most underrated marketing strategies in the world with one of my favorite friends and mentors. Mr Cameron Herold now I'm gonna jump out on a limb here. And guess that like me, you are probably a big fan of Mr Richard Branson. And one of the reasons that I love Richard so much is that he's an incredibly shy introvert, who has mastered. The art of getting billions of dollars in advertising for his ventures for free is driven a tank through the streets of New York to get attention for the launch of virgin cola. He's hired a blimp that said British Airways can't get it up when they were having construction problems repel down the sides of the palms casino in a tux, any crossed the English channel in a floating car. Why did he do all these things to get free attention and free press for his businesses? So if you're willing to use a little. Bit of creativity. And if you know how to strategically work with the media, you could find yourself getting the kind of free press and traffic, that would normally cost tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars will today Kamara's gonna give you the blueprint that you need to start getting free traffic using PR right now today. Now there's a massive side benefit to using the strategy as well. Once you get a story featured in these major publications you can use them to acquire that allusive and coveted verification badge on all of the major social media platforms. This is definitely an episode that you're going to want to take some notes on so be prepared to do that. Cameron does not leave anything out and before we dive in I wanted to give you guys a free resource that I am often asked about that is, who does my tech who sets up my shopping cart, who does my funnels who, does my split testing, and all of that fun stuff. So I just wanted to give you guys that resource for free in order to say thank you for listening. And thank you. For your support for the past seven or eight years. I've used a company called vision tech team dot com. They've done all my tech. They've set up all of my membership sites and everything in between. And they know every internet marketing software platform out there that exist backwards and forwards. So if you need help with your tack, and if you need to hire tech team that knows marketing most importantly than the guys that vision, TEK team dot com. Are the best out there in the world? This is not a sponsor plug of any kind, they're not compensating me in any way for this. This is just me hooking. You guys up with one of the most valuable resources. I have once again say thank you for listening. So with that being said, please help me welcome Mr Cameron Herold Cameron Herold. Welcome back to the podcast. Man. I've been looking forward to this, this interview for weeks. Now, welcome him. I thanks for having me. Yeah. Absolutely. So you've been a huge contributor to the podcast here in the past to the training platform with the amazing classes that you, you produced with us, which have just been awesome. And I wanted to have you back on the show because you've got a book that you just released a couple of months ago, about a topic that I've found fascinating for years that I still really don't understand, and that is how to get free PR and to do it, correctly and strategically. So, so I'm really excited to talk about the subject because I think the, the benefits versus the risks are very Ason metric, if you do it correctly, meaning it could put your business on the map, and change your life, or you could end up spending the ton of money on this and get results whatsoever. So I'm glad you're here to be your guide. Thank you know. And you actually touched on something that it's interesting. And not many people actually pick up on that. And that's the strategic use of getting publicity as well on a lot of people just kind of go after at they don't really think about how can tie into either building their own personal brand building their business or building certain. Aspects of their business. Yeah. Give us the give us the fifty thousand foot view from from the beginning one. How did you get involved in this topic enough to want to write a book about it? And what have you learned jer? So I got exposed to granting pre-publicity publicity when I was quite young by my father, and both my grandfathers owned companies, and they were all three of them were very adapted leveraging the media, and I kinda remember my dad coming home one day, and he was in the newspaper yet again, for something that he'd done golf club. He'd raise money for charity. The Gulf, and I'm like how come you're always in the paper like, how do they know you, and we didn't grow up in a big city, we grew up in a city of hundred thousand people. And he said, I just phone them like, what do you mean? Like, they, you know, there's a picture of you, you know, raising money for charity. And there's this little article about you in charity, a what do you mean? You phone phone the newspaper, and I told them that there was a story and they came out in the covered me, and that's stuck with me now I was about thirteen years old at stuck with me for number of years. And then I was around twenty one and I was running my own house painting business. I twelve employees we're painting houses, and I thought you know. I'd be really cool if I could get the newspaper to write about the fact that I was painting houses collect probably gets more chrome it. And so I found the newspaper and I said, you know, I think I have a good story for you in the writer said, what is it is it will it was really hard to find a job this summer. So I started to start my own business. Maybe we could read a story about, you know, university kids or college can starting their own company and taking their future into their own. And the writer said that it'd be great, how would it come up in southeastern and I got off the phone, and I of went while that was easy and that really was the start of it. And then it was, you know, dozens of articles over a few years later without company and then years later again with an auto body chain. And then with a brand that I'm sure everyone listening heard of, like human is the chief operating officer of a company called one eight hundred got junk, we had fourteen employees. When I joined we landed five thousand two hundred stories but our company and secures, including being on Oprah in pretty much every major newspaper magazine could think of. The printing, and that was literally using the same methodology. So I started understand how to defy that it worked, and it worked for number different businesses than it was always that same way of district phone calling. So here's the biggest lesson that I've learned when it comes to this. I, I hired a PR agency three or four years ago. I don't remember exactly what it was going to be around. I think I think just kind of my personal story to do some personal branding, and I ended up spending twenty something thousand dollars with this company, and they ended up writing like two or three page personal story, or bio which I could have done myself in a few hours for free. And then it never went anywhere. Because like this is ridiculous. What am I paying you guys for right now? You got on the phone with me recorded what I told you, you put it into the document for twenty grand. Yeah. And now I've got to pay you more money than submit it out. And there's also now an entire ecosystem of internet entrepreneurs in, in kind of this entrepreneur space who will you can pay three four five thousand dollars to get featured in on Forbes or entrepreneurs Zine or success or whatever, like they're, they're contributing to Iago head, contributing writers yet, those are those are the contributing writers for what is unfortunately, become ambassador, is medium of online journalism, like, yes. Yes. And so what I hear you saying. And this is what I want you to dive into more here in a second. And what I've learned is that the media and writers journalists are starving for interesting content stories to tell and you don't have to pay for that they would be Arild to hear from you and to be able to put together something fascinating and interesting for their audiences for free. They're not going to charge for it. And that to me is the. Biggest lightbulb moment that people need to get is that you're the one with all the power. They're the ones waiting to hear from you. It's just a matter of learning how to approach them how to give them something that's a win win for you. And for them, yet, you're actually really crushing this, this topic. So here's cures you get it. So here's the key, every single journalists woke up this morning and thought to themselves what the heck am I gonna write about today? No, every podcast or thought about whom I gonna cover every blogger thought about who should I write about every magazine newspaper journalists on what story can I write today and that the Cup of the new story constantly of the multiple stories a day, some of the multiple stories a week, even the TV and radio same thing, right? They're all looking for content. The big thing to remember is that every media outlet only makes money in one specific way. And that's by selling advertising. They don't make money off their circulation podcasters. Don't make money by selling their. Podcast. TV journalists don't make money by selling your TV news story, right? Everyone makes money off the advertising and the only way they get out of your ties. Ing is down a whole bunch of people devouring or content, which means they're content needs to be really good. So that's clue number one. They need. Good content. Number two, is there's no such thing as investigative journalism anymore. People don't have the actual money to go out and find a story the what happens is, they're sitting at their desk wondering what to write about your job is to give them something to write about, and they will write about it, though. The go-ahead is like I'm just like thinking, like, and that's that's how you end up with site like business insider that has a thousand articles on the ten best hamburgers. You know in the United States. Exactly. They're just looking for content to be fun to them. So the, the real I come up with what we call the three easy steps to free PR, the first step is to know your angle and every business, we talk about businesses in general for second every business really has five airy similar stories. The first story is kind of the entrepreneurial startup. Right. It's how did you start your company? Did you drop out of a career? Did you leave a job somewhere where you frustrated with something? It launched the start of the new product you, try to solve some problem that you had will, you bet your entrepeneurship startup story. The second story that everybody has is the overcoming adversity right as the heros, during that. I struggled with this while I was running my company. I really struggled in. Here's what I learned. Here's what I overcame. And there's a lesson there for everyone inspiration there for everyone. And it's that same hero's journey arc that you take people through. So we all have. You know, you have, and I have a number of, of these overcoming adversity stories. The media wants to write about the third one is, is, we have our culture angle. Right. It's like what kind of culture do we have that because everyone wants to learn more about culture in? It's not about the remiss is in the free lunches. So how do we build great companies? How do we build remote teams you might have your technology angle? Right. How you're leveraging technology tools and apps hacks to render business, or you might have suffered a remote, gene. So the key is to come up with, you know the last one. The fifth one is your the story related to your customers benefitting from your product or service, that's really a customer testimonials story. Right. So in my case, I would talk about, you know, CEO's that I've coached, and the successes, they had in their business or Teo who joined the alliance and how it made a difference in their careers. And I get the article to cover them in their successes of mentioned in that story. So if you think. About those are the angles, the second one is to know your target audience and this means the target audience of the actual media outlet that is covering them because in every case, if we think about a business story, you know, the Wall Street Journal's business section, or fortunes, business magazine, or Forbes entrepreneur inker success or new your podcast or a blog or Forbes online, all of those have very, very different business audiences even though their business outlets. So you think after think about how do you have you spin your story or position your story for that specific audience? And that's the kind of know your target than the third step is to pick up the phone, and this is where most people go sideways, especially nowadays more than ever. They try to Email. Everyone will the idea is in every single journalist probably gets two hundred miles a day, but they probably only get four or five phone calls a day in two of them are other. So you've much much higher chance. Getting through to someone if you own the and if you if you don't get a hold anything even leave a quick message and say, hey, it's Cameron calling from the CO alliance. I think I've a great story for you. Give me a call back. Here's the number. If I'm sorry, and half snuggle on back, but and, and what's the best way to get their phone number? So you can get the phone numbers either off online databases, like station or media outlets or muckracker online databases, you can subscribe to for not much money. Maybe fifteen hundred eighteen hundred dollars a year or if you're just doing a little bit Grillo PR in your contacting, maybe ten people often, you'll find their phone numbers, just through Google Lincoln or yelling, can worst-case scenario, you can also phone actual outlet and just say, you know, his Mike Dillard, their pleaser Cameron calling for Mike. Mike, mike. Dillard in this kind of odd g shucks your way him. Yeah. Because nowadays, there's really no such things a gatekeeper anymore. These big companies aren't used to getting phone calls. So they kind of you're supposed to be calling person, and then the pitch that I use always the same aid. You have two minutes. I think I've agreed story for you and more often than not the person's going to say, yes, because again, they're looking for good content when it comes to. Two. So I'm gonna use myself as an example, because I've been thinking about this the last few months dealing with my health stuff. Right. I have a hell of a story to tell from the past year, and I'm waiting to tell it until I'm, I'm fully recovered, and I have a final chapter, essentially an e the preliminary title might be something along the lines of how the entrepreneurial hustle almost killed me kind of a deal. Right. So I know outlets like entrepreneur magazine success fortune etcetera, etcetera. It would probably have an interest in that story. And an additional benefit that I have to offer is that, hey, assuming you publish this. I will send my entire audience to your publish. You know, your site your article to go read it. You don't you don't have to do that part. Okay. Don't don't, don't do that, at the beginning because then it sounds like you're selling them, right? Remember, they actually need your. Sorry. And it's to have enough confidence in your story that you don't have to give the additional benefits. Gotcha. Okay. So that I really, really good. Because this is a journalist who just wants really good content, by the way, I don't know if I would wait until your stories done, then it's like everybody else's. Imagine if your story is how my health issues has been killing me and what I'm doing overcome the or what I'm doing to try to overcome them. So there's like a hope imagine if you could take people along the journey with you. Imagine if you can have like a three part study over the next twelve months, you're gonna talk about what you're working on because everybody has that story of, oh, I was sick. And now I'm not right. What about what about I'm sick and I'm struggling, and I'm gonna open up the KOMO knowing what you go through it with me. Okay. All right. Gotcha. Like fuck. That's cool. So question number two, four. You is around approaching multiple publications. Ideally, you know, you see, when you see story go out that usually is good. You're, you're seeing it everywhere. Your. And a lot of outlets. How do you approach that in handle that where it's like, hey, should I give this to entrepreneur do you wanna run it for success? Ideally, I want to get it in both. But what's the strategic component around handling that more often than not none of us that are listening right now are really running that big of an exclusive story that we can pitch the embargoed story to one one out? We're talking about. We're talking about running that big, speech or front page article that's gonna be the big scoop than we probably know that's what it is. But if it probably trying to strategically think about it would probably I think I wouldn't worry about it as much. So, I would I would be doing is looking for a lot of city related press, you know, business magazines newspapers city by city, you can get covered in the discovery Tribune than Francisco, Chronicle Dallas Morning News. Boston globe. Thank her son. Austin, whatever you think about market by market by market all of those business. Newspapers will cover you as well as multiple news news outlets like magazines and wires. The key is just remember those journalists have their target audience than you're gonna position your story or spin your story, a little bit more for their audience. Okay. But if we have those yeah, if you big scoop story than it something slightly different. Do you come to? Them with your story already written and everything ready to go and to hand to them. Or, or do you doubt what I do is? I, I give him the title of what the story might sound like right? So it might be, you know, how my health almost Kilmer how, how mine health has been killing me or something to that effect. And then what are the five bullet points around that story? Right. So it's how I was struggling how I noticed. I was struggling how I have been reaching out for help, what I've been doing about it. And what I plan to keep doing, you know, cheer me on kind of, and you and you give the author journalist, the five core bullet points so they can frame, a story around that it's kind of insulting to a writer to send them full story. It's almost like walking up to a girl in a regular guy bar, giving them your entire life resume. Like, hey, here's everything about me. They'll be like, dude. I don't like now I wouldn't even be able to. Uncover that overtime. Right. Right. You wanna give give the little tidbits about yourself and then get them to come up with their own perceptions of their own store, and then the, the other big piece of the puzzle that I would wanna have in place. I is a proper way to capture that attention. Right. Yes. So the first again, I always go back to pick up the phone, so I never phoned the news desk. I never phone. The city desk. I never editor, let me think about an editor for a second. The editor who woke up today you know it's Monday, the editor that sat down to their desks. Today is going through hundreds of newswires in press releases for the last few days and they're saying, not every single one of them. Picture them with a stock of two hundred wires in two hundred nails. They're saying, no, no, no, maybe, no, no, maybe why would you ever want to call that person? But if you phone the writer and sitting down dust going what the hack Megan right about today, and you give them some story that might inspire them chances are they're going to say yes to it. So I, I do like that. Initial message of aid. You have two minutes. I think I've good story for you. If they say, yes, you say, here's the headline in here couple bullet points. What do you think if they say, no too busy? Give you call tomorrow or Thursday. And then let's say you get the green light. They do the interview with you. It's gonna be a great piece. Do. They typically ask you. Hey, is there any website or something that you want me to link to a reference? Yep. They may ask you for more supporting information after you get into and you realize they're writing in store. You can ask them. Would you like me to send you some more points on this to send you a couple of a website links? You might be able to look at wholesome information from don't ask them to link back to your website until no, the stories running because then you can ask them. And they'll say, yes, but kind of it's kind of getting a fish on the line. You wanna make sure the fish is on the hook before you really a real it in. Right. Don't, don't turn from story to marketing until you know, there's a story. I cheat that a little bit again. You're there to help there to help them come up with a story once you've helped him cope with the story there, so thankful. They'll put all kinds of links in it back to your website. And that is, by the way, one of the strongest ways to drive up the oh, his media about your brand without a doubt. If you were to Google my name right now. And look, Google news. It's story after story after story and that all links back to my website. That's pretty colorful stuff. Yeah, absolutely. On the on the voice mail message. So let's say you don't get through the journalists and you're gonna leave a phone call. Just leave the message and say, hey, it's Cameron calling from the CO lions if you have two minutes giving show back. I think I have a good story for you. Here's myself number. That's it don't tell them the story. Don't tell them and don't send him an Email follow up. Wait until you've left two or three messages before you send an Email. And if you send an Email, the Email should be exactly the same thing. Don't tell the story. You're trying to get them to phone you to engage with you, and most of them will. Okay, awesome. How many people should you be reaching out to on a daily basis? And what do you think you're? Response ratio. Would you know something to shoot for? Are you telling topic or something about I was just thinking to myself, I should probably tell you how the whole sales, our, I'm so think of it like sales funnel, that this is a no, you're you're talking to potential buyers. So what I like to do is make ten outbound phone calls maximum per day. Even eight outbound calls per day is really good pitching eight people day that sporty pitches per week that comes up to one hundred fifty pitches hundred sixty pitches per month that will usually generate six stories, promote. And what is the process typically look like from a time commitment for from the, yes. Is that you get right? Is an hour long phone call. Is it multiple? It's, it's often less than an hour long. It's probably closer to twenty minute phone call for most journalists. I'm thinking about how fast you can talk you can really cover a pretty good story. Right. If you're doing a very indepth story with a major like we did. Fortune magazine that was probably a half day. No in-person meeting, or Associated Press wrote a story that ended up in two hundred twenty newspapers on a single day that was about a half day. No media Tom Cohen. But even like I did a I was in the physical printed issue of Forbes magazine, two years ago, the full page article in Forbes that also which also appears online. But that was with the publisher Carl guarded, I think it was maybe a twenty five minute phone call that ended up as a full page article very cool. Very cool. How do you go about pitching multiple journalists at the same publication or contributor yet? Puffer one I often try to just go with one. I try to figure out which writer for publication is the best one go with them until they say, yes or no. If you hit four or five of them, they end up, usually sitting with their editor, and they're all they're all explaining their story. You don't wanna have Mike John, Bob and Kelly, all explaining that they wanna talk about this story go shit. Guys pitched. All of us. It's us it's usually better to pitch one until you get a no or yes. And then if they get a no try second one, but I would be pitching, you know, multiple people in the same city or you know, that kind of thing, even example, here's a good one. By the way on a customer success side. Let's say I had a customer in Tampa who I coached, this guy, Bobby Harris from bluegrass logistics that coach for five years, I can phone, every single media outlet in Tampa over the course of the month, you know, tentative for five days before weeks. I would cover virtually every journalist in Tampa, every reading all the small ones I'd probably five or six stories about bluegrass logistics benefiting from our coaching after I do that. I could then actually pick up the phone and start calling every single journalist Detroit about another client of mine. Charles Mok Charles has a group called the lure medical if the exact same pitch miss the exact same kind of story, but it's a completely. Market a completely different customer. And I could just do city after city after city if I go through my nineteen coaching clients by the time, I've done nineteen cities, I've covered nineteen weeks of pitching, you get enough press to cover you for couple of years, and that's way cheaper than ever. Hiring a PR firm for six thousand dollars a month, and then let's, let's talk about that. So let's talk about the, the ROI that you've seen from pursuing this activity clear. Getting some are wire you wouldn't you wouldn't be still doing this. Yeah. So, well, I is that it's everyone believes what they read in the press, even you know, we're being conditioned around this fake news idea. We still believe there's truth in all this journalism in the stories that you're telling your prospects than your customers are gonna believe those more than they believe your sales letter or emails that you're sending right? So what you can do with the press every, every news, article I get I send it out five times on Facebook. I send five times Lincoln. I send it out five times on Twitter over the course of a few months, I E mail, it's my list. I E mail into the speakers bureaus it gets linked back to my website. I added to the prestige my website. So I'm really taking each story, amplifying it in multiple ways, and all of that drives more credibility more credibility, more credibility. And guess what? You can finally put. Real as featured in, you know blank blank blank on your website. Yeah. And I've even I've even gone so far now is to make a real point of saying things like I've been in the physical printing of forms, physical printing the physical print issue of fortune, as apprentice entrepreneur, not just the website, which has now when I say that it kind of not simply discredits all the prostate anybody else's getting because people like await. Yeah, they're not in a real magazine. And so when you push for really strong content it actually does make you stand out, and you can also get re principle that. No, I've got physical boxes of the Forbes magazine, because it's a full page article written by the publisher about the, the vivid vision, concept, a hand, copies out, everybody, my coaching Conan's copies of sealines members handed events. So there's a lot of, of additional as you mentioned, the strategic side of PR was a lot of other strategic reasons that PR is really good about. Dr zero is well, but don't look at one article going to necessarily drive traffic to your door. Even when we run Oprah for one hundred junk, we didn't necessarily sell a lot of franchises from being on Oprah. The real play. We got off of was ability to talk about being on Oprah for the next sixteen years. Yeah, I mean it's just the limit stamp of their party credibility, right? Is there a way to strategically increase your odds of being put into the print publication? Yeah. I think that the waste is strategically do to make sure that your website is very press friendly. You have good photos up. You have good press. Ling of good press content of new show yourself as being credible. It's to make sure that you keep adding all the additional media that you get any Ryan holiday wrote a really great book years ago called. Trust me. I've lying talked about lathering up the media and every media piece of media coverage. You get shows. More and more credibility for the big publications to take you seriously. Right though. If you've been shown twelve times than, you know, chances are better. If you've been shown fifty times, all of a sudden, they won't even read those articles, they'll be like, wow, this is getting out of coverage. They are the real deal. And she credibility up to mazing. This is just a game of social proof. Totally social proof. Yeah. And that's why so forbade what I like doing all hire a fulltime. I love women underway that are in PR than men are they get through the gatekeepers better better on the phone. They multitask, better. So I hire twenty four twenty five year olds females who loved to sell. I treat it like a sales position because it's cold calling picking up the phone. It's handling rejection managing sales funnel. But if you're paying a fulltime PR person, fifty thousand dollars a year, paid him four thousand dollars a month. Give them another five hundred a month in bonus. Maybe it's fifty five thousand dollars a year, you will absolutely LAN content. And then when you repurpose by handing that content to either, you know, a freelance marketing person of your marketing team, any can really leverage. It is. They can take it republished reluctance. All right. So this just got really interesting. I love that idea. How much do you do you offer? How do you compensate them for each booking that they do? Yeah. What I do is I set up a goal that in the first two months, they have to win three stories a month for the next two months. They have to lend four stories among for the next two months after lend five stories among, and then at six stories month rever afterwards. If they're landing those stories, they're getting a five hundred or six hundred dollars a month dullness, that's it. That's the whole program the entire program is based on them hitting their goals. I don't bonuses in place for that with the Tatum normal salary for. Okay. So, so just to make sure understand this. You're paying them a fulltime salary to, to pursue these bookings and then hitting those goals gives them a bonus. Yeah. Just a little bonus on top of that. Okay. All right. That makes sense. I'd imagine this could potentially be just a great job for virtual assistant whose hungry in. You know, commission based in and is a go getter it. Yes. But don't ever treat it like in the role treat it like it's a sales Ryan really think of a marketed as a sales role because you're gonna hire you're gonna hire a sales person the ads, it's a great like it actually scales quite nicely. I've also been able to use part time, people doing it who also are selling by normal product or service. They spend two or three days a week sowing my products, and they spend two or three days a week, selling my PR able, still a sales person. What Cameron this has been like filled with actionable actionable tips strategy. I don't I don't remember the last time we had an interview that was like ninety nine percent meat and content and an action stuff like this. Thank you for going into the details that you have this is just kind of the tip of the iceberg youth. But this into a book that is step by step blueprint and manual for going out and pursuing free PR and getting it like this. What's the title? The book and where can people get a copy? Yeah. The book is called free PR, and it's on Amazon, audible and itunes. Absolutely step by step. In fact, the reason I wrote it originally was nine years ago, the CEO of grasshopper dot com asked me to write is internal manual the teach him how to build an internal yards on that became the kind of core content than nine years later turned into a real book. Wow. Cool. Very cool guys. Definitely go pick up a copy of the book, I think cameras laid this out and such an easy to understand, fashion and systematized it to where all of us can go immediately start applying this to our businesses. And you never know when one of these stories is going to go big it's going to go viral and it's going to, you know, have the potential. The change your business. I can't tell you how many businesses and startups, I've seen especially around Kickstarter where just the PR in the press around their stories have put their businesses on them. Map so I think pursuing this and doing it right. And doing it strategically with the help of Cameron's ebook is something, everybody needs to do. I know I'm gonna definitely start pursuing this myself. So Cameron, thanks for coming on, once again, and dump, and just a ton of knowledge, and wisdom for everybody, you always deliver the goods whenever whenever you show up. So thank you so much for doing that where you. And where else can people go to connect with you, personally, whether it's your personal website or social media? Look at the second in command podcast on itunes in every wells podcasts are but the second, I only interview the second in command. So the CEO so for all the great companies out there that we're hearing from the CEO, I get the rest of the story and then the CO alliance dot com by core. Website is well awesome. Awesome. Awesome guys go pick up a copy of free p r off Amazon connect with Cameron, and definitely go, make sure you check out the classes that he's produced for you over at Mike, Dillard dot com. Click on the classes, tab, he did two amazing classes of Crete vivid vision for your business, and then how to hold meetings where he basically dives into the same level of detail. You just went through here today, but how to hold productive meetings for your team and your company it's absolutely game changing content. So make sure you check that out as well. Thanks for listening as always if you loved this interview, please, share it with your friends and leave us a five star review on itunes. Spotify anywhere else where you might be listening to. This that helps us out here at the show tremendously. I appreciate you listening as always, and we'll see next.

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