Mark Fainaru-Wada, Shannon Spake, and Jeff Gluck.
Hey, everybody. This is Richard. I train welcome sports media podcast. My producers always loop green. Oh, we have three guests this week three great. Great conversations. I up is Mark fainter Awada the ESPN in vestige of reporter, obviously, one of foremost sports investigative reporters in the country. And we go twenty twenty five minutes or so on his piece about Bob Costas and NBC and Bob Costas being hold off the Super Bowl broadcasts. Totally fascinating piece about power the power of the NFL power broadcast television, the NFL I think you're really gonna enjoy the conversation. So I up Mark fainter Awada, then we go to Shannon, speak who is very very familiar to NASCAR of yours. She this year was named the host of FOX's NASCAR race coverage. Which means you'll handle all the anchor duties for the monster energy NASCAR Cup series and the NASCAR Finnity series. She takes over the Chris Myers position. So a huge huge position for. Bannon basically, the preeminent host of NASCAR in the US. And we have a conversation about that. And her career also some fun stuff. She's a massive Howard Stern fan. And she's also an endurance racer doing half iron man's and just ran the New York City marathon, probably the fittest person at Fox Sports. So that was cool to talk to her. And then we finish up with Jeff Gluck on. This NASCAR Centric episode one of the foremost NASCAR reporters of the last decade or so, and he is he is doing his entire job the crowdfunding the patriot. And Gluck story is just fascinating how an independent journalists has been able to continue his career covering NASCAR. And obviously covering NASCAR at the highest levels. So it starts with Mark Penner or Awada than Shannon speak. And then we finish up with Jeff Glock all in sports media podcast. More fin WADA is in ESPN staff writer, if you've been reading his work for many many years, particularly on the nexus of the NFL and concussions and brain injuries. Reasoning is on this podcast today is the piece that dropped on February tenth Bob Costas unplugged from NBC and broadcasting icon to drop from the Super Bowl that was a piece that certainly in my circles got a lot of attention. Bob cast is on the record discussing why he was no longer hosting the Super Bowl for NBC. And Mark fainter WADA joins us on the sports media podcast Mark, thanks for joining me today. My pleasure, Richard, thanks for having some Mark. Obviously, you know, this piece got a lot of attention media loves nothing more to talk about then media as both of us know. And so I wanna start from the beginning. How did the story come about? How did Bob Costas? Longtime NBC employees and up talking to Mark fainter Awada well known ESPN staff writer. On how well known, but I I reached out to Bob about a year ago. Now, I mean, I just thought, you know, I always thought this, and I think everybody at our place how this much more than a media story. Not in some ways is located as a media story. I I was fascinated by you know, I knew obviously baba come off the Super Bowl wasn't doing it. It had been sort of odd series of circumstances and sort of press releases and obviously knew well his career he'd been very outspoken about issues throughout his career, including steroids in baseball, which I done a lot of work on. And so I just thought it made sense like if we could get Bob to talk openly about how he managed and balanced the tension that existed between being the face of football for NBC and talking about an issue. That's an essential crisis for NBC's largest business partner. How that would work and how he managed it. And what? Packed. It might have had on his career and all of which spoke to sort of the power of the league. And so I reached out to about a year ago and said look this story, we're interested in telling would you be open talk about it. And, you know, fortunately, he he said, yes, he he said, you know, look, I have great respect for sixty not L and the work that you guys do he was familiar with the work that Steve my brother, and I had done league denial, and he said, I'm in how many times Mark did you talk to Bob for the story this if you if the timeline is a year that would mean several significant conversations, I would imagine terms of the reporting. Many. I mean, there's a there's two formal television interviews that happened on camera. And then there's pro, you know, I think we say in the story dozens of conversations many of them on the phone some in person, the first interview, I rode with Bob from he'd been he'd been doing a game for Melby network in Saint Louis and early in the season, and I wrote with him from there to Indianapolis for an event, I think it was honoring the fiftieth anniversary of the and so we had about three hours in a car that very first interview and in subsequent to that. There were just tons of phone conversations some long some short just a mixed bag. Mark you now that the pieces over I'll ask you directly. Why do you think he ultimately decided to talk certainly didn't ask do? But he he clearly there was a part of them that wanted to. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I always openly up Bob of it. But I think I think my sense is, you know, again, I, you know, I don't think there's a huge thing. But he said, you know, he knew our work and respected it, and I think he thought this was a, you know, this would be a respectable of a venue to talking about this. And and then I think, but I think, you know, largely he, you know, he's a stickler for truth and focus on truth, and and speaking truth to power, and so I think there was a part of him that that was excited about the idea of being able to be really clear about what had happened at the Super Bowl. And it come out very murky and people were speculating about it, and you know, and I think he was interested in talking about that. And the more that we talked about that the more led to questions about what had happened earlier. And you know, I think though. Those are things he ultimately wanted to talk about two including getting an essay rejected in two thousand fifteen so let's backtrack a little bit for those who have not read the story. Bob Costas is sort of making the point that because of his his viewpoint about the NFL and brain injuries, probably more specific because of how public he was in certain forums about that the application was that an NBC no longer wanted him to be the host of what they've you is kind of a celebration of football. Right. I mean, you're asking how far it sort of goes back and. I'll I'll I'll give you the Mike here and just feel free to sort of offer a synopsis of of what the story is about. Sure. I mean. Yeah, I think what happens is, you know, with with NBC for forty years now in his, you know, he's he's built this. You know, I Kana career and had done football. You know back in the nineties. He one of the things he tells us early in his career he became Biddle about about the sport in its violence. Even before there became all these discussions about brain damage and the possible connection. So he asked off ball in nineteen ninety three. He did do HBO's inside the NFL, but he talked about how he justified that in his mind because it was a sort of more journalistic than he could say what he wanted in two thousand five ABC gets back football and cost us says he's asked by dick ever saw. Then the chairman of NBC sports and his mentor to do it and causes says, he reluctantly agrees that sort of a good soldier and loyalty out of loyalty to ever saw. He does that for a period of time and through that period of time, obviously Sunday night football, emerges this powerhouse. And. And and then the issue emerges around football and brain damage as far back as two thousand five but really kicking in around two thousand seven eight ten and and even as an conscious beings to talk about this regularly educates himself, and he talks about it regularly, even on NBC. There's a there's an essay from two thousand ten on NBC second game of the season after an issue concussion related issue incidents where he really Rhys on this. And it's when you when you think back on it and reflect on it. It's a powerful moment in American television. Here is the voice of football on NBC on the most watched program, basically asking fans to think about what they're watching. And the possibility that the guys they're watching are going to end up with brain damage because they're playing football that airs on NBC and subsequently Bob talks about this issue repeatedly on talk shows and sometimes on the network the first point in which there's a real moment of tension. Between he and the network at least that that he talks about with us is two thousand fifteen in two thousand fifteen the movie concussion is coming out with Will Smith conscious sina preview, he decides he wants to to write about that. And talk about it on the air. And so he presents an essay to NBC to his bosses Sam flood and Mark Lazarus NBC that is a very pointed attack, frankly on this issue, and it points out that the league is denied that this is a problem. And and it ends with this very powerful comment about we're all sort of washing this Russian roulette take place on the field, and he submits a tan BC. And if he tells it his bosses say look this is perfect. It's well written. We wouldn't change word, but we can't run it. And he asked why and they say because we're were in competition to get Thursday night football. And Bob says it's at that point where he realizes in situations longer tenable for him. And he decides that he's gonna move on from football and ultimately going to invoke this clause in which hill end up becoming an emeritus figure hill finish up the Super Bowl last Olympics. And they'll move on into sort of, you know, more spot roll with NBC he said to do his last Super Bowl in two thousand seventeen last years or eighteen last year Super Bowl and the build up is plan for him to do that. But in the months before that in November, he goes to a university of Maryland symposium. And at that symposium. He now says famously this game destroys people's brains, and while it's not different ways from what causes said previously. It's much more heightened and much more powerful the quote goes viral, and then Bob is honored two days later. I Ron by the concuss. Legacy foundation, an advocacy group, whose researchers have connected, the the sport to to brain damage, and then he begins the sensors a level of tension going on between him and the network. There's a point where I think it's the new York Daily News might be the state could be post. I can't remember ask NBC for comment about Bob's viral comment and NBC says we'll Bob's I- opinions are zone to which he told us. Well, that's like, okay. They they're not sure there's a link between football and brain damage or the not sure whether the earth is round anymore. So he's clearly sensing a level. There's a level of frustration existing. He then goes on CNN to try and sort of clear up this issue, and defend NBC. He says, but he's talking about it again on the network one more time. So he goes on CNN, Michael Smerconish, you talks about this issue. He defends NBC, but he talks about football and brain damage and within an hour. He's got attack. Next from he says Sam flood executive producer of NBC sports, saying you've crossed the line. And ultimately the messages you can't do the Super Bowl anymore. This is a six hour celebration of sport. And you're not the guy to do it. Mark. How did you approach NBC with all of the detail information you had from Bob Costas? You know, it was an extended process we reached out to them, and basic, ultimately, so initially I reached out to Lazarus and flood directly seeking comment, and I got no response from either of them. So I sent a an Email to NBC PR in which I laid out the story. Very specifically with details of of many of the things I just described and ask them if they wanted to comment on any of these specific things or make flood or Lazarus or whether flood or allows us wanted to make themselves available to have a discussion both about these very specific issues and about causes career at NBC, and what was their response to that. Well, it took a while to get one from them. We gave them plenty of heads up, and they took awhile to respond. But ultimately, there was sponsored was a single statement from NBC PR which said that the network was disappointed that Bob after forty years with the network at chosen the chosen to mischaracterize. They used the phrase mischaracterize private conversations. How do you their reaction? I mean, I don't view it any. I mean, it's it is what it is. You know, it's there. That's there. You know, what I prefer to have Lazarus flood on the record talking about this? Absolutely. I would love to have heard different perspectives on what actually happened, but they chose to go this route. And I was frankly a little surprised, but you know, I get plenty of no comments from people. So or or statements from people let me ask you about something a little bit broader. I'm a cynic when it comes to any hard truths in enduring the in game broadcast of an NFL game. I I think we will get incredible analysis. I think even sometimes we'll get we'll get stuff about criminality issues. Now, that's obviously player specific not owner or league Pacific. But when it comes to shoes like the kind of stuff that you and your brother have reported on. We just don't see it. And I don't think we'll ever see it. And I. I think that almost extends to these studio shows as well where we may get it touched on a very small short segment, but there's never really anything in depth. Do you think that's just the acceptance that the football fan has to have that those who are holders with the NFL in those particular forms the in game and the studio show are never really going to provide us the the detail the data the reporting on the kind of the third rail issues of the league. I think it's it's a little bit of. I mean, so first of all Bob address to some degree, you know, his point about this was like, look, I'm not gonna I'm not trying to disrupt the game. I think that's not you know, I didn't talk about steroids in the bottom of the ninth of of a World Series game. Or, you know, I'm a studio host with the NFL. I had the opportunity at halftime of games to talk about these things. I'm not trying to disrupt the experience, and I think I think there's an element of that that that play certainly for the game action or studio shows everybody has their roles to play. And and there's also not the time necessarily to to do deep investigative dies. But we have done, you know, plenty of dies where where we're breaking news and revealing information and have ended up with either on the studio shows or have seen the folks on the studio shows talking about the material we've done, you know, I think it's like I'm not gonna deny there's a there's a dance going on. Right. It's difficult. It's. It's challenging tension that exists and that's one of the points. I think in the story that we try to lay out is that this tension exists between the business partners. And and the league it's obvious to anyone who's who's around it. I mean, there's millions and billions of dollars at play. And and so there's a there's a challenge around tried to talk about these truths. But in the end, I think, you know, there's there's reporters who are in a position to be able to do that. And thankfully, it ESPN. We've been able to do that. And and and and if not and not been told not to. Mark from your reporting. How do you view the NFL's relationship when it comes to the selection of broadcasters or the broadcasters who are delivering the product. Well, I don't know that that's an area. I spent I I mean, I certainly looked at and talked about the relationships and the impact on those relationships with a couple of folks who have experience around that. But I don't know that I came away with any insights about how the league is choosing its partners or impacted by by this kind of work, or or that I think that would be for you know, you to talk about or somebody else she's got a larger level of expertise looking at how the league's choosing its its partners were there was a point in the story if I'm correct, right? That Bob suggested that he should interview Roger Goodell at the Super Bowl and reminds correct about this was at the league who declined that. Or was it NBC who declined Bob being in that role? No, it was the leisure declined it. So so when the league when when NBC told Bobby was being removed from the soup. Bowl. He was not pissed off. He was not like this is shitty. I can't do this. He was like your mad at the network or anything you said great. That's fine. I understand it on sort of relieved. But what he did say he recognized that there was going to be a potential PR problem for everybody. Any any also realized that like look I'd like to do something you've got a six hour broadcast. Why don't we solve this issue by me interviewing Goodell, and so NBC made the request to to the Commissioner's office to interview Adele, and it was rejected by the league. And and Bob, you know, talk to us about that rejection. I, you know, I asked him what's your view on that? And you know, he said two things one is he doesn't have any idea. What those discussions were like, whether whether NBC said to the Commissioner will you do this and the Commissioner said, no. And they said, okay, thanks, or whether they as he said could have pressed him and said, look we pay million billion dollars you to the Super Bowl. The least you could do is sit down with us. He doesn't have any insights whether. What the conversation was way the other thing he said was about this issue of of the Commissioner's office declining to be interviewed during the Super Bowl. He said, look, I mean, I this is an unusual relationship. I think where the buyer is continually flattering the seller. And I think is is quote, and I can't say it as well as he did. But like, it's a ridiculous situation. Where basically we're having to you know, pull up the Brinks truck. And if we didn't bring you the denominations in the correct ones while I got won't go back and bring you the twenties and fifties that you want and we'll wash your car if we'd like to if you'd like to. So I think he recognizes the power that better than anybody in in. I think fortunately for us. He was willing to talk sort of openly about it a couple more here, and you may not be able to answer this remade. Choose not to answer this. But the there's an interesting sort of note in there about is coming back to the NFL, and he says he did that because he wanted to be a good soldier to his mentor. Dick ebersol. I think there's a fair there's a fair counter that to say that. That's on satisfying. And if you truly really feel this way about the NFL, why did you then come back and take money that ultimately is generated from your networks rights deal with the league? I don't know if you've got into that with Bob. But I think they're going to be some out there who are going to say it's a little bit of a hypocritical stance to come back to the league the second time when he did. No we did. We did talk about that. And I think fos position is look I I have a role. I have a job that affords me the opportunity to to to in some cases, say, speak, my mind and offer some thoughts and opinions NBC is giving me that and rather than run from that. Here's an opportunity to tell some hard truths and made people think about this. And and his position whether you think this is I mean, some people may think this is maybe not naive. But pollyannish is like it's good friend. Be see this is what the network to do to lend itself credibility on this issue. It can't ignore it. And so I'm gonna talk about it. And I'm going to be around football. And so I'm gonna do this for the network and at the same time, I'm not gonna shy away from things. I think you know, I think people will judge it for however, they do, and and you know, I think Bob certainly has concerns about he PL people view him. But, but you know, I think as many people who you him that way, there's probably considerably more. Who who say they appreciate the fact that he was willing to speak out. Yeah. And I do I I tend to side with cost. I appreciate the thought process. I do wonder if his bosses would feel the same way. On that. We'll clearly they did not. That's right. All right. So here's the final thing. This is a pretty fascinating story in terms of just your own network, and the network ESPN sort of going forward in terms of doing a story that ultimately is it's going to take off one of its competitors. But also it's going to kick off one of the people that it's that shares the rights or the media for this league for this story did did your bosses have to eventually give the heads up to ESPN top executives like Jimmy Petar. Oh, who Marcus has been reported, as you know, very well are have been trying very hard over the last year too. To better their relationship with the leak. So I'm going to answer this out absolutely directly. But I'm going to give you a little grief. I got oh, are you are you are you going to recall your James, Andrew Miller conversation from about a month ago? And what you said you'd never expected the fan ruse to do another investigative piece that look that this issue or these issues that are on the third Rayleigh NFL, and including PC just on insurance. Yeah. No, no. You can get me if you want. I said I think I said that I was skeptical that would happen. I didn't say an absolute I don't think it's I just listen to this morning. Those curious digit. And I said, I don't think the painters will ever do another story. I think we're in for a kinder gentler. Then I I I back in deference, and I take the hit and I own it. I give ESPN and the fainter abroad, IRS prop. So I was I by the way, I am happy to be very happy to be wrong on this one. So I. Full. I I, you know. Wow. In front of you. If your brother was here at bound front of both. I we I think it's much word of the network in anybody else. I mean, we're we're hardly alone doing this stuff. And you know, so I I here's what I'll say. Like, look, I the first the short answer is. Of course, we're doing sensitive work that involves our business partners. And just like every story we've done previously before Jimmy Petar came in place. These stories moved up the food chain. And and are looked at you know, by the highest levels because they raise questions in their they're, you know, they're difficult issues because the network is a business partner. But in the end that has not prevented the work from from being produced. We're still hired I decided new contract, and Steve and thank you. And I think the, you know, we'll reason is because we're aware that we're able to do this work in a difficult situation for sure I mean, it would be it would be lying to say. It's not complicated. I think the story with. Point out complicated. As and we've, you know, we've been in the thick of this one of the things we really wanted to do in the story, as we laid it out was we thought it would be ridiculous to write the story without acknowledging our own issues. And so in both the TV piece and the print piece you'll note that we are transparent about we've had these same issues that he SPN we, you know, playmakers is highly talked about as having been killed after a year after the complained, and we had our own issue around the denial and ESPN ending the partnership prematurely. So these things are all true. But as I always say two things can be equally true in this situation. It's a challenging setup for sure it raises tensions. But at this point, we've been able to continue to do the work, and and that was true of league of denial. The story the book came out the excerpts published any SPN, we ran clips long clips of the documentary as is always plan. And and so in the end, the journalism has one out, and you know, Jay Petar, his told us and our unit that he is committed to this kind of work and committed to doing it. And you know, I think the insurance story and this story, and and Seth wicker shins unbelievable piece recently on the Browns, and the the looming piece by Scott Eaton on Tim Donahue in the NBA. All of these are testament to the fact that the network remains committed to doing this kind of work. Bills bangles every week on Monday night football. Thanks to Mark Finn. Reuters reporting. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. So more. Are you will you and your brother be doing an expose on Jim Nance? Joe buck next, or is it just cost us as that is is that we're events. I think this is this is a new this is why I'm gonna nor the crush degree. But I I don't like, yes. It's a media story. Like, you can't you can't get away part of the media, obviously. But there's a much bigger story than like, Sean causes who's arguably the most iconic figure in sports broadcasting it, certainly the most decorated and respected as we said in a way like Walter Cronkite was around, you know, in around news. He's that way around sports. So you're talking about a guy who spoke out about this. And and basically sat down with us and gave us news. It's not about you know, if any of these other broadcaster sat down and told us that they had been stifled to do this. And then ultimately pulled from a an assignment, I think you would readily admit that's. News. So I don't think we're going to go out covering all sorts of you know, it's not a media job. It's an investigative job. And and I think there's a component of this. That was investigative. It reveals not only the news of what happened to cost us. But also, it reveals a very clear way the influence empower that the NFL wields over its business park. Yeah. I mean, I I was being I was joking stories about power and the power the power the league. And that's why it's you know, the media is is a gigantic sort of subtext within the piece, but the piece ultimately is about power and the power of the NFL when it comes to these hard truths. And and I'm glad the piece was really well received and deservedly so. You took you know, I've interviewed Bob many times. It's he's a brilliant guy. But it's a process to interview. And as you know. Yeah. And so you I thought you guys you played it about as down the middle as as a peace could come out as so well done appreciate you. And congrats to you and Steve for resigning, and I will say this. 'cause I gotta take my hit on the Miller podcast signing you to is a great sign that he has Pnn plans to continue to do the kind of investigative work that you and your brother and the amazing producers at e sixteen o t o have done. So that's that's really good news for all of us. And hopefully bobbly were returned from his up seventy five week vacation one day. And and we'll see him. We'll see him begging leader back. Exactly are more Phanor WADA is a staff writer DSP N. Obviously, one of the foremost sports investigative reporters in this country. Go check out all. His work. But particular for this podcast purposes. The piece that he did on Bob Costas and NBC obviously for this podcast. Totally fascinating. And Mark, I appreciate your time. Thanks so much and and continued success. And and hopefully, we'll catch up soon. Thanks again for joining me today in the sports media podcast. Great, richard. Thanks for the time. I really appreciate it. All right. My thanks to Mark fainter Awada for an interesting conversation. They shot at me. But I deserve it. And now, let's head to Shannon, speak. A fuck. Sports in two thousand nineteen Shannon, speak was named host of FOX's NASCAR race coverage. That means she will handle all anchor duties for the monster energy NASCAR Cup series as well as the NASCAR xfinity series. That's all the pre ratios, and she does that from Charlotte. Fox Sports has a new studio for NASCAR, Shannon, speak has been a guest of mine on the Sports Illustrated podcast, and she was awesome on that. And now we bring her back in twenty nineteen. Shannon's bake, welcome to the sports media podcast care. It sounds so good to hear you say that I'm so excited about this role this year and all the opportunities that Fox Sports is given me, and this is a big one. You know, I've been covering NASCAR since two thousand four two thousand five and I think I've kind of done everything that you possibly do the NASCAR Raj. And so I am super excited to sit in that big chair and and to have these duties on Sunday. And obviously what Chris Myers done for eighteen years prior to this is I it's a big seat to fill. But I'm so excited about the opportunity or let's start there. You are. Correct. You're not you're not overselling this. This to me is the most prominent hosting position in NASCAR. If you're NASCAR fan. Centrally the quivalent of hosting, you know, the NFL today or football night in America. So how did you have been part of this for while? But how did this specific assignment come about? Well, I've been doing the pre race stuff for the. Senator series for the last two seasons on Saturday. And I think with us coding everything into the Charlotte studios. Obviously my presence on race hub during the week and and having this role on Saturdays and kind of proving to the big bosses that this is something that I can take on. I think it kind of was a perfect fit to to make this move and to kind of do this. We're doing everything out of the studio here in Charlotte. I don't know this Pacific that went into to Myers deal. But I know they came to this opportunity. And and it's like you said, it's it's big I I spoke with someone this week. And and you just spoke about me starting in production. I feel like I've been in TV since about two thousand woollen when I moved to New York City two thousand when I moved to New York City, you know, fresh out of college, and I feel like I've stepped up every single every single step on that ladder, and I've spent some time on every single step, and I'm really excited about the climb that got me here, and I'm really excited. To use all of my experiences, hopefully on on this Sunday show, and to be able to bring now the new studio that we have if you haven't seen it. It's absolutely incredible. But it is a big deal to me to be on Sundays and to be as you mentioned. I think Fox Sports is is is honestly they put so much stock and have so much concern about the the NASCAR world. This is a huge entity to them. And I know what a great responsibility in a great opportunity to says shot, and you have a very really solid career going. You've done you do the NFL or done the NFL college football. And obviously, you have your NASCAR roots was was there any hesitation in taking this. Or was there a thought process in terms of? Okay. Do I want to do I want to have this big Sunday role, which essentially it's not the full year? But it's pretty close. And right. It's like February February November, basically. Will the Sundays? We do. Fox Sports does the first half of the season. The first. You're exactly right. That's right. The other stuff stuff afterwards can be February November butcher at. You. Have the first half of the year my bed. Okay. Goes all year long. So all year long Monday through Wednesday or Thursday. So I'm managed that right now in terms of doing that show during the week and traveling out to NFL my first year with FOX I did nine games on the NFL and this year, I did fourteen and listen, I'm perfectly happy to do a full season. Because I love it so much. I was paired back up with crispy Elman this this season, Thom Brennaman and the crew that I was with was just amazing and listen, Richard. I mean, I'm not I mean, there's a like we all are in this industry for short period of time. The opportunities that come your way, you've gotta jump on them. And to be one of the people who get to cover NFL on Sundays that is not lost on me for a second and same with this opportunity. That's funny and NASCAR it's going to be work. But I'm also coming off the road. So I'll be home. So when the race is drawing home rather than going to the airport and. And having my bags pack him. It's going to be a lot more work. But but a little more manageable. I think because I will be home and be able to wake up on my bed and good Abed every night, you know, kissing my kids go night. Have you thought about, you know, obviously, that's a huge huge advantage. And makes the makes the job really appetizing at the same time as you know, given that you have been at tracks. You've talked to drivers you sorta you smell the sports sort of straight up. You do lose a little something when you are not there have you thought about how to navigate the the the had a navigate the absence of being at the track while at the same time having this great opportunity working Sundays. Yeah. That's one thing that I've that I've spoken a in a Larry mcreynolds or Jamie McMurray or even my bosses about you know, when when you get on a golf cart drive from the cares or drive from the television compound, you know, to the Hollywood hotel. Yes, you're part of the atmosphere you feel it. And and certainly that's something that I I have to make a real effort in trying to remember that we are part of that. But if you say. I keep going back to did stuff this weekend from the clash, and it kind of I mean, you feel like with with the graphics that are behind us, and you can see the folks on the track and see the fans out there the cars lined up. I know what it feels like there. And I think my experience of being at the track were being at college football games being at NFL game. And knowing what that energy like I feel like the experience that I have I will be able to bring that to the broadcast and the relationships are so key. I've been in Karaj, you know, set some very long time. And and I have a lot of contacts myself. I have a lot of people that I can chat to if I have questions or if I be talking and obviously having Jimmy McMurray and Ricky craven, and Larry mcreynolds and all these guys brackets jovial God move in and out of the race hub studios during the week, those people that I talked to join the week as well and get a real sense of what's going on at the track. So I feel like it's something I have to keep in mind all the time and. Order to do our give our fans like it Justice for our fans, but I had something that that won't be as hard as it might seem not being there, Shannon. You know, this the best studio host and sports just not only are they really talented, but they have they figured out a way to make the chemistry onset. Seamless ernie. Johnson of Turner is a great example of being centrally go free and lending his analysts star same thing. James Brown of CBS, Rebecca Lowe is great at that on the Premier League for NBC, but also has their own style. Have you thought I know you have hosted before. But obviously, this is this is the really big show here. Have you thought about how you want to lead this group on Sunday, and what kind of tone, you wanna set as the person who brings us in and out of that show. Yeah. I think being me I think that's the biggest thing in educating casual about it. You know, I'm a huge fan of Thompson either. You are as well. I'm not like a hawk. And and kind of I think she's one of the best in in what she does on Sundays. And so I watch like a hawk and and try to obviously, take some tips. I you know, the opportunity lives aren't acts with us. Now. I think Lindsay's over the years been someone I certainly watched how she handled moving from one segment to the next seamlessly. And I think just being being I think one of the things that I try to do. And I think that I've kind of done I I've moved into this role a little bit more. It's just kind of be natural be myself and not trying to be somebody that I'm not because I feel like when you do that. That's when you tend to make the stakes get out of your comfort zone and out of being who you are is that's when that offense at Kasese not come through. And so that's a huge thing. And I think I'm very comfortable with the people that are sitting around me. I try very hard to spend time with that outside of that studio outside of the desk. I've Jamie McMurray. He's gonna be with us this year. I two thousand five. Thousand six considerable friend. And so I really try to try to make sure that I'm hanging out with these guys win. We're not just on the set. But that's it certainly, Richard. That's one of the hard things about doing daily show. Is you Penn? I mean, it's every day you have to turn on that energy. And you have to have that energy ready to go for that hour on for that two hours. And fortunately, I have a lot of it. So fortunately, I'm able to manage it during that we have a lot of energy. You know, really really really love what I do. And I've told people before you cannot fake passion. And I am extremely passionate about what I do. Whether it be on the NFL sidelines or NASCAR. I I love this sport. I love this industry. I love working for Fox Sports. And I and I hope that that comes through every time that red light goes on. Should you mentioned Lindsay Zarni AC and she joins you Sarah Walsh as well. You guys are like ESPN south now, basically. But that doesn't debt leads me into this question. That's three prominent roles for three prominent women in the sports media. And so giving you covered NASCAR for a long time. How would you compare? This kind of open ended here. But how would you compare the the numbers of women working in NASCAR at any position in the sports media today versus when you started in NASCAR in your opinion? Has there been progress for women getting these roles or has the progress just been for very high prominent or high profile women getting these roles? You know? It's funny. I've covered I've covered all the sports and people have asked me this question. People have this idea that NASCAR is such a male dominated sport. And yes, it is. Because all of the men on the track. I mean, obviously there then with the exception of danika, you know, who stepped out after you know, she had to racist last season. I actually have always argued completely opposite. I think there's a ton of women enough par you walk through that media center. There's PR people. There's you know people on the radio doing pit road. Jamie little and I have been on pit road. The two of us have been on pit road since you know, the early two thousand five thousand six Krista Voda has been in the garage for for a long time. Wendy tarini. I feel like there's been a lot of women in NASCAR. I just feel like there's this perception that there's not I think I have actually more women would when I'm in the car garage. And I do when I'm on the sidelines for the NFL. And and that has I certainly think that the bigger roles are now being consumed with. Women which I think is a huge step. But I also think that those roles are being consumed by women and other sports. I mean ten years ago, you didn't have to women hosting the NFL pregame shows. And now we do and in Kristen Sam and same with the NBA with Michelle. And so I think that these roles are certainly opening up for women, which I think is enormous. But one of the reasons I tell the story a lot years ago we were in the Daytona. And so I had the opportunity to be part of the cars three movie. And so I'm standing there as during a press conference, and I'm up there as the only female besides the female that was in the movie, of course, the only female Representative of NASCAR I'm standing there with Jeff Gordon, and you know, w and ever hand and all of these men who have respected and and worked alongside for so long. And I was the one woman, and I thought it was really cool to be representing all of the women because whether it be wise or PR people are writers or or people in the media. There are a lot. Of women in NASCAR. Shanna? What would your character? And course, three Shannon spoke my read about the right? Yeah. That's right by can't load. It. Their family thing. That's like mom of the year when you can actually get a character in a film. Pretty good. Great. You make an interesting observation though. And I think that's fair. I think because the essentially other than obviously, the sport is essentially mail when it comes to the participants and probably crew chiefs as well. And pit crews you sort of get a sense that it's it's male dominated. But you make very fair point about about walking through the the media center. I wanna ask you question about sort of. I know you get this question a lot. And so let me just preface it by saying this, obviously has nothing to do with you or your work, but it alternately at the end of the day impacts, you you know, that the sport has been losing viewers during your time covering it. Why do you think or what is your impression as to why you think NASCAR has been losing viewers at least in terms of television viewers? I think sports in general we consume it. And so many different ways than we did back in the nineties, and I think we cannot compare. We can't compare NASCAR to what we had in the nineties. And I think that comparison people try to make that all the time. And unfortunately, you can't there's too many. I mean, every sport, Richard. I mean, we're we're consuming all of our sports in different ways. Whether it be, you know, Twitter or Instagram or just getting highlights quick. And so I think that that's. That that's a that's hunted. Those folks go out there and they're camp out from Thursday to Sunday. And that just doesn't happen a whole lot anymore in sports people want it now, and they wanna be able to get on with their lives. And yeah, that's certainly something that might entire time being NASCAR we've dealt with I twenty I just looked morning and saw that our ratings for the clash for up. Like, I think three percent from last year. I think that there's a lot of events going into this season. I think with some of the changes that we've made in the the staff that were bringing on I think that that builds a lot of momentum for us off force. And and I also think that there are some storylines in the garage that that could be that could really kind of spark some interest. But I think we can't compare apples to apples anymore. We cannot compare what we had nineteen ninety five ninety six to what we have now. And I, and I think that that's one of the things that we do that that kind of brings expectations down, but we do everything we can to try to hiding this. I love them too. I mean, all the barstools thing. I think is I know some people have their opinions about barstools. But I think it's it's it's a great way for upon reach out. They kind of done marketing thing with our stools, and that's going to bring some younger viewers this going to get some younger viewers is on NASCAR. Which I think is important to think outside the box. You. As again as a prominent host in the sport. This is sort of interesting navigation. So I wanna ask you about this as I would ask people in other sports at fell excetera. How do you navigate or what your thought process in navigating? When there is a negative story about NASCAR. Because at the end of the day, FOX NBC, you guys are your media partners. So you're the hope for both of you is if the sport grows in his popular, it's gonna benefit both entities financially. But there times, of course, as you know, when their stories that are not positive for the sport. How do you approach that in your position as someone who who might have to do that on a network that has a financial partnership with NASCAR? I'm not about sensationalizing. I never have been like when I was at ESPN tear me new. No, I mean ESPN is a news station. So when stories like that would come out we would have to investigate those things, and I've never been learned at a very young age. It's not about sensationalizing. It's about getting the facts and reporting the facts, and I think that regardless of our relationship with NASCAR, I think we still try to do that. And I still. I'll try to do that. But I also listen I got into sports because I wanted to cover sports, right? I wanted to cover flag the flag things that happened. And so let's tell the stories whether they'd be negative or positive, and then let's cover the sport. And I'm not one to harp on negative things or or that's not my job. I don't think there's there's there's a lot of people out there that are responsible for breaking news and doing those sorts of things we are reporting. What we what we know? And then trying to if it's a story will cover it. I think from from top to bottom with just hired Bob Bob Hawke who was one of the best and break news, and and all those things garage. And so I definitely think that shows that we're moving in a way that we're going to maybe explore that a little bit more. When me personally, I'm not one to kind of harp on on negative things. I'm going to tell the story report the facts, and then let's do what we have to do. And then let's move on to talk about the racing that that's my personal. Opinion. It's kinda how it wasn't he SPN as well. Again. I I love flag flag. I love, you know, you know, the action of the game and over the years as we all know sports has moved into a lot of the news telling of sports as well. And so it's it's finding that balance. I think FOX would be some good hugs in our lately shine Apocrypha is good. I like Zarni ack. I like I like Sarah Walsh, both personally and professionally. I mean, you guys have a sports network have made some horrible hires. Elsewhere. I'm not gonna but in NASCAR, that's quality. I mean good for you guys. It's it's you're making that product, I think at least television wise attractive and the puck was a really good hired. Just because this very few people who are more connected insider than him. I want to before before let you go. I do want to ask you about the NFL. You mentioned that you working with Tom Brennaman, Chris Newman, who's fantastic and. On that team this year. And now that you've got a little sense of this, Shannon. You worked as many viewers will or listeners will know for a long time in ESPN doing college football. And so you have your roots in that sport. Now, you're doing the NFL from your perspective from the sideline reporter position. What have you seen that are the most significant differences between the sideline job in the NFL, which obviously includes the days before the game and the sidelight job in college football, which obviously includes production meetings in the days before the game. While you're working professional athletes. Right. You're working with grown adults. And I think there's a you can walk up to them premium and talk to them. Whereas I think in college a little bit more protected by, you know, hey, we gotta set up an appointment or or make sure that that that there's someone there during those conversations, which I I like, I mean, you just walk up to these guys and he talked to him I love. Yes. Lettuces them. I mean, it I say all the time. Like, sometimes, you know, sometimes what you watch on TV isn't always one hundred percent exciting. But for me when I'm on that sideline. And I'm watching the athleticism of these players. They're not a game. That goes by that I'm not just blown away to see, you know, Julio Jones sideline or or to see some of these guys what they're able to do from an athletic standpoint. I love working the NFL for that reason. I think it's been. It's been so cool for me. Again, the story storytelling. I try to do, you know, when I was at ESPN, I learned, you know, a lot of what you my biggest thing was like let me bring the viewers to place where their ticket can't can't get them. And so for me, that's what I saw on practice or or one of seen on the sideline right now. And I try to I try to do a really good job of of really kind of scouring those lives and bring those stories and. I just yeah. I the games are shorter. The players are faster. They're stronger. And to work with again, he was actually my analysts very very first year. I did college football peon. So I was completely green had had very little idea. What I was doing Trump covering the sport down on the sideline and to be back up within this year has been really really cool. And I I do working in the NFL because the lettuce aspect of it. It's it's incredible like fake won't Barclays lakes are really as big as they look on TV. And when you're getting it to him and you see him down the field. You're just like these guys are just amazing that goes a freak athlete winning the most what's the most memorable thing you you saw this year or reporting on this year on the sideline. My goodness. Yesterday. Asking me pleasant. Oh god. I don't really gal legit. I'll let you. I'll let you think about that. I'll give you give you much. The kicker from Green Bay when he missed would. It be missed a six field goals in our game. That game. Oh my God. Yes. Right. I'm telling you what the sound of that ball hitting the uprights is so much louder when it goes like four or five times it was on. No, I did the game where the Steelers they think we were in Oakland. And they I guess they had the wrong cleats on and standing on this. I see one of the of the equipment manager say, hey, go into the locker room and get those suitcases of cleats. So I ki- my Mike, and I tell my producer like, hey, I think they're going into the locker room to actually bring sue cases of new cleats out. And sure enough guy walking out of the locker room dragging like rolling suitcases like on like through the end zone. And and then of course, I'm standing there going. I really hope I heard what I heard. Can I to be you want to? Say you wanna be right. You don't wanna be wrong on on that when you when you are solo on the sidelines and usually for non big playoff games of the Super Bowl. It's going to be a single sideline. Reporter are do you like do you walk both sidelines during the game? Or do you spend one half on one side one half on the other? I walk both sidelines. Allan Beswick who did off on a long time. I was at ESPN. He gave me a great piece of advice. When I was first starting out on, you know, kind of my biggest thing was like, how do you know where the snoring is? How do you know what to fall? And he just said follow the ball. Just always wants the ball is. And so I I try to kind of like I try to think about that a lot. Where's the story? Right. If you had a secondary that she's getting blown up by a quarterback. That's the story. Right. You wanna go over there? And see what the secondary coach defensive coaches are saying to these guys you have a first year quarterback who's getting ready to get in. And you wanna watch his body language. We had I think it was the forty Niners this year. I think they were Stargate pulled three guys off the practice squad. Max McCaffrey we wanted them and pre game. I was just sitting there watching them. I wanted to see what their body language was they're getting into the game NFL game for the very first time. They're making their first start in the season, it's sixteen and so those things. I try to kind of figure out where the story is. And that's where I play myself. I remember I did an Arkansas Alabama game one year and the the kickoff they pulled on kickoff Alabama. And I happen to be on Arkansas sideline. So I just went learning over to the Alabama salaries, and I wanted to see next reaction, and then after kind of everything settled down I went back to walk on the sideline. And then again on kickoff drops the ball and computer, go running back to the Amazon, right? Sometimes it's a lot of running around. But I just had a bigger out where the story where what do I wanna see what do I think people want to know that happening down there on the sidelines shot and more cursing on a college football online or a pro football settling. Probably the pro is more the athletes cursing, and and the EMMY an ecology or the coaches cursing, I think the hamlets thrown I've seen. I mean, I've seen everything down there. The big thing. I'll tell you what the big thing with the NFL sideline that those kickers are down there warming up throughout the entire offenses series. I have almost been hitting the head a couple times by either a, you know, someone snapping the ball for the kicker or the kicker kicking the ball, and they do not do that in college. And so my Laura Rutledge took when for the team this year so moments like that I think we always kind of like we have to be a little bit more aware of our surroundings and just make sure that that we're not gonna get, you know, real by, you know, a kicker getting, you know, kicking a ball into one of those nets show that Laura one went viral. So every man. I may have. All right. So before we get to your burgeoning athletic career in marathons and ironman competition MA of asked you this when I talked to last time, but you know, I'm certainly I've I've certainly repeated questions before in my career many times. So I'm gonna ask it again. Now that you have been at FOX for a significant period of time. What can you give me a sense of of of what is unique or what is different or maybe the better way to ask? It is what are the differences between ESPN FOX for a employees in your position. I think I, you know, I think I told you when we spoke last time that it, and this is the analogy really that. I that. I think describes it best. It's it's like going to a family party where you know, at ESPN their side hundred people at the family party. And then at at FOX, there's you know, there's forty there's thirty five it's it's just a more relaxed kind of five I think, and this has been I mean for me, this is the coolest time to be fucked because everything that we've acquired whether it'd be the big ten, you know, Thursday night football. It's you know, the NASCAR stuff that we're doing the new studio that we have it's been such a time of growth, and it's been really fun to be a part of the this network growing. There's so many great people amazing people at Fox Sports, and they have been so good to me in terms of allowing me to do things and giving me all the -tunities. It's been it. It's been a great great move for me. I I love my comedy. In the twenty four hour thing that one will tell you that when you first starting off that is the best place for you. Because you're getting so many reps, and you're constantly constantly of things and ESPN allowed to do that. But for me, FOX right now is allowing me to grow in ways that I I probably never would have been able to ESPN nice is cut a promo for FOX in and human resources. I said. I said, here's all right. So before retirement refresh me if I'm right about this on your Twitter feed. You do is there like a sentence? That says you're stern superfan. Am I am? Yeah. Yeah. So stir starting meeting Howard Stern. I assume. Right. You you're the second person asked me that this week. I'm like, yeah. We have course. I would just I listen, I'm from New York. I listen, how extreme so what I'm gonna ask you before we get to this is do you have a favorite wack pack character, like whether it's crazy Alice or Eric or high pitch Eric or whoever. I like mayor doing just because she's so out of control he calls like loves it so much and sometimes deals with her. And sometimes he does. And I actually did this storm wrap up show twice. I I attacked. Yeah. I know. So I was in New York. I was at the Sirius XM station talk and came just kind of trying to get to work. I do some stuff with the NASCAR on station from time to time. And I was walking with Steve Cohen. He runs stuff. They're walking with him through the hallway. And here comes Gary, lavar, talking bone me and any sir fan will tell you. When you get an opportunity to see Gary, which is probably not that much. You screen baba buoy at the top of your lungs. And of course, I'm with Steve Cohen's like I have to act like I have to act professional here. I I can't do this and a writer here in Charlotte. When I first got the gig with NFL FOX, he he interviewed me I told him that story because he was a huge storm. And you wrote about that story. And when he posted it on Twitter, he tagged Gary. Well, Gary reach out to me and kind of said if you're a real super, you know, stern superfan. Why don't you come all the wrap up show? I'm like done. And so I flew up there. And I went on and had last and they said anytime, you're in New York, and I took them up on it. So when I was there doing jets game couple this past season or giant's game pass season. I went on again. And so, yeah, it's cool. Man. You want in there, and you get to like see how I mean how studios stubborn you're in the room. And it's pretty cool. I interviewed a already Lang wants in Stearns green room and my only by the way done. I think about it. Can you imagine having lunch with Mary and want to kill yourself, basically, thirty minutes and all the time now or do you think she's just like that? Because you get so excited about Howard. No, no, she's like that all the time. There's no chance with that. That's that's the genius of of Mary, but I will shine you you will appreciate this. I think so in addition interviewing already Lang ones. I don't remember the story. I think it was for CUNY for Sports Illustrated I-. They needed some media people once for the Tiger Woods beauty pageant. And so I was one of five on my God more. Yeah. Four or five reporters who interviewed Tiger Woods mistresses after them. I. Omelets beauty pageant on how I mean. That's either the highlight or the low light of my time of your resume. Yep. But I got to see the studio and I got to talk to Howard on air. So that was pretty cool. I have to admit that was really he's he's pretty amazing. I'm a huge fan of his I, you know, you're gonna wanna talk about the the marathons and triathlons, and you know, when I go out for like, a fifteen sixteen seventeen eighteen mile run it, it's usually Howard that. I'm listening to I can't listen to music. I just I have really bad like CD when it comes to like changing, eighty whatever. But I I love listening to his energies will Richard. I have to jump in here for a second because you're leaving out one major detail that your that your producer used to work for him. Oh my God. You did I worked on the Howard Stern channels. I produced the Scott ferrall show at night. So I was around at the time. And yes, Richard is exactly right. Maryanne is like that twenty four hours. Yeah. Yeah. So then you would have to have lots of beverages while you're having lunch with her. Shannon. What I what I can do. But I would not ruin your life this way, I could very easily just give sours your phone number and you can have sour shoes. Call you every day. Don't do that. It's humor like one of human beings in a whole suit here. He doesn't Gary. Patty, Mattel the different who's Gary hit Ardy his mad dog everything that he does. I mean, it's so funny cries every once in a while my phone will start ringing in my wife will see me keep putting it to voicemail and like that's ours us again. Yep. He'll call you five time until he gets. Call Shanna, by the way, Lou is not jumped on this podcast fifteen weeks. So he's clearly excited about. Yes. The interview with you. Yeah. You earn? You know, you've awaken. Yeah. That's what you've been on the you've been on the wrap up show. So that to me is that to me is pretty amazing. All right. So let's finish. First of all. I love the fact that you know, we have like Olympic caliber athletes, like listening to like, whatever imagine dragons or hip hop, and as you training for the ironman. She's listening to the Howard Stern show Mary from Brooklyn. All right. So here you go. You're an endurance racer. You've raced in multiple iron half hour and man's or full iron man's and I trained for my first full one the hair on and two weeks before the event was supposed to take place. Hurricane Michael destroyed Panama City, which was where it was a place. So I was literally on my last like one hundred mile bike ride as the hurricane was hitting the area. And obviously the iron man was was not it most people they were devastated. Right. It was not what was me at all. It was. Thinking about those people down there. But instead of doing that I actually went to the New York City marathon. So I fortunately, I do somebody at the Roadrunners club. 'cause 'cause you know, it's, and you know, I I I'm gonna mitt that. I that I use the, you know, use the contact to kind of get into that marathon, but I was two weeks removed, and I really didn't want my training to go to waste I had trained for about seven or eight months for this event. And so I went to New York City marathon as well, we autumn. It was second time. I did it and it was oh my God such great experience on. But yes, I don't plea seventy point three's which are half iron man's. I'm ironman embassador. So I do an auction every year to raise money for the foundation, which gives money back to the to the race communities the place, where we raise which goes to, you know, help the folks who were devastated by hurricane Michael and Harvey, and and and all of the devastating things that have happened over the years, but it's been great three years. I've been doing it the people that I have met being part of the iron, man. Like, you think? You think you've got a tough because your calves are hurting or your Quadri sore, and the people that I've met along the way are so forgiveness by rain that it stills my heart Cup for like the entire year. And it gets me going. I love it. So so people know this half, ironman, one point two miles swim fifty six mile bike ride and thirteen point one mile run. If you do a full one, you double it. I mean, I do. Yeah. One just seeing these disasters that that's incredible to me. Like, you said you did the New York marathon. So here's my question. You have a very busy life, Shannon. You you have a significant job in sports broadcasting. You have twins that you are raising with your husband. I mean, are you just one of these people who is just so schedule and regimented that you're able to fit the training in because like otherwise your life must essentially be like a calendar. Right. How else could you train for this stuff? Yeah. It is. I'm an really everything is on my calendar. Everything is kind of planned out and make sure that I had at work ahead of things. This is a whole podcast, right, Richard. So growing up I had very is zero structure in my life. Right. I was raised by single on in Fort Lauderdale, Florida in the nineties, ripe, some more three jobs. We had no structure we had nobody who set rules for us or guidelines or anything things spiraled out of control, and for me as an adult having this ironman and triathlons in these types of things having this structure, I said this when I did an interview it's sort of like my lighthouse, it's what keeps me on points. And my husband actually used to like back in the day. He'd get kinda give me a hard time about some of the training that but I did. And and granted I wake up at four o'clock in the morning to try to get some of my training done before my kids get up, you know, I'll split up workout. So that I can get them off to school and then get. Back and do my workout. I have a little count in my office. If I need to take a ten minute now before I get into into make up because sometimes as we all know, just ten minutes or fifteen minutes does like a whole, you know, there's a great thing for you just kind of refocus you and get you going, but I manage it all because I my husband realize, I don't do it. Because I want to I do because I have to I love it so much, and it is what keeps me focused and keeps me doing everything else. Well, I think and so I've been I've been blessed to find the iron man because not only physically has it helped me, but it, but it's like I said the people that I've met along the way there there is was a brother duo there. Ryan and Brent peace there from the Atlanta area area kinds. Sorry, Kyle bring peace Kyle is in a wheelchair. He has spastic palsy of some sort and his brother drags him in a vote. By Fleming pushes him like a bicycle and then pushes him in a wheelchair for the entire ironman. And like I said I'm gonna feel sorry for myself because I'm tired when these two are out there doing stuff like that. It's the people that I've come along with inspire me. And I've been very blessed to be part of it. Appreciate you sharing that. And that's really just a really really impressive the dedication that you have towards this art as I said at the top Shannon's bake this year was named the host of FOX's NASCAR race coverage handling anchor duties for the monster energy NASCAR Cup series as the big Sunday show NASCAR xfinity series races of pre ratio. That'll be done in. Fox's brand new studio in Charlotte. Shannon, also is part of FOX's NFL coverage, and she'll have a semi full calendar of games next year. Are you doing college football as well this twenty nineteen? Okay. So you're out of college basketball game. So I was able to. They offered these three this year. And unfortunately, I needed to take a couple of weeks off with my family between NFL and NASCAR covered. So I did one. I did see hall Villanova which. Yeah. I mean, listen K right is. One of the best human beings ever. And I love college basketball. So so much that if I can do even one game ear, it's it's worth it. Nice one. Call wrestling going to get the gymnast schedule. I respect that. He does that tournament though, we know. All right, Shannon. Liz. You are always great to come on. You're the only person I've ever met whose a stern superfan as well. As a. Iron iron man runner. Maybe there are others. But that is a rare rare duo, and and I have great respect for your career, and congratulations, that's a huge huge a role that you're taking on essentially the preeminent hosting role in NASCAR. So that's very very cool. And and hopefully, I'll catch up with you again in a couple of months but best of luck. And thanks for joining me today on the sports media podcast. Thank you, Richard. I appreciate the time or my thanks to Shannon, speak for our conversation about Fox Sports, and as well as her love of Howard Stern and endurance racing. And now, let's turn to someone else. Very prominent NASCAR writer Jeff clock. Jeff Gluck is one of the foremost NASCAR reporters of the last decade. Plus any now covers the sport via crowdfunding, which we will discuss here. If you are a NASCAR fan, you are certainly familiar with Jeff's work in voice, one of the most prominent reporters in that space and prior to his current of. Role essentially as an independent reporter. He worked for USA today for many years, and Jeff Gluck joins us on the sports media podcast. Jeff. Thank you for joining us. Yeah. I'm really to be on here. I listen to being alive, especially when you may have reporters from other sports reporters, you know, doing like an NBA table or NFL person saying, okay, who's good tunnel Q? And how do they do things? I think it's really fascinating to hear. How things go other sports? So I really appreciate this resource. I really have to the Jeff doesn't nice words as long as you never use the word honor in this podcast, again will we can move on. So let me so let me sort of give the listeners a bit of a break down as to where they can find your stuff on Jeff Gluck dot com. You post stories and analysis and interviews you have an Email newsletter. You obviously have a very popular Twitter account for NASCAR fans race updates. Breaking news other information, there's a. Facebook page where you post updates. You. Have your own podcast called the untitled. Jeff Gluck podcast. There are YouTube elements to your work. You're obviously appear on siriusxm NASCAR radio and all of this is possible from people supporting your your patriot page. That's how you're able to travel to races. And as you note. That's how you pay your groceries. You did not start off Jeff thinking that this was going to be your career at this moment, you are a quote unquote, mainstream reporter working for a very mainstream place in USA today. So this is where I wanna start with you. How did you get to this position? When did the when did the leap to being in crowdfunding and letting people fund your career how did that come about? Yeah. It's kinda funny. 'cause sometimes I'll get feel like, you know, maybe college age kids, and and they're, you know, looking for digital career something like, oh, man. You know, when I get to that like how just started patriots thing them like actually I came up through like the traditional with newspapers and kind of like win up to old schools or journalism ladder so much. Sure. Exactly. The running advice in in my case. Yeah. I was human thing. They everything I felt like it was going really, well, and I probably would've stayed there awhile until you know, until they didn't want me anymore, but my wife, she's probably child life specialist works to the children's hospital and getting those jobs at times is somewhat similar to the difficulty of getting sportswriter job where you know, a lot of us out there. You know, our first job or not in the location where we thought my my first shops in rocky mount or Carolina. You know, not somewhere that ever lived or knew anybody. But you know, you go where the jobs are. And in in our case, my wife was just about to start doing her internship and then getting ready to take her shop. So I had a perch USA today about relocating, and they told me, you know, like, I can't okay, which was really surprising to me at the time. I just assumed that I could just because you know, like NASCAR a lot of it is I was living Charlotte. I should back up and say that a lot of teams are in Charlotte. Most of the teams, and the, you know, you don't really talk to people there. You know? It's like you're going to the shops all the the most ninety percentage our whatever is done at the racetrack each week. So I get my coincident in reporting to the cly, you know, at the track. So I just assumed back to travel from anywhere USA today, you know, felt differently about that. So it was sort of a. You know, became clear over several months like, okay? Well, you know, I'm either going to my wife. No. You can't go help, you know, sick kids in children's hospital your dream or enough to move. I'm gonna have to figure out what I can do. And I, you know, I'm really really really fortunate that I had enough of a Twitter following to even attempt something like this. I mean, I think that's sort of a big, you know, when I talk to people about it like, you know, if you're not if you don't already have that basis tablist, it's it's gonna be tough. And I think that's sort of you know, we've all learned that over the last few years here sports media, but the one the biggest benefits you can have whether it's giving a moment job or going are in your home. It's having so that mobile audience take with you because I think for the most part, you know, your audience doesn't really care when you're writing they're gonna follow you. I mean, Richie had something similar you with your fellow moon following the. The two athletic, and I think that it's we've seen the benefits of having that following. So I felt like, you know, I maybe try something like it. I I didn't know what to do. And I've seen people, you know, there's that detained Pittsburgh sports website out there, and he does since its style high felt like I shouldn't description out because a lot of NASCAR fans, they're very blue collar. They don't have necessarily disposable income. So to put everything behind a pay one. I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna work in, you know, I just feel like maybe it'd be the patriots out. I was desperately Charing to him to see if any sports writers or journalists on patriot. And I couldn't necessarily signed any. But then a huge fan of the TV show survivor, and there's a guy who survive hothouse. And it's rob has podcast. I was a patron close. You know? I would listen to podcast every week, and he'd say the podcast fasting patron. Here's how you can do it. You know, it's pretty podcast listen to this enough. I'll give this guy. Five bucks a month, you know, support it, and I don't want it to go away. I enjoy free entertainment. So I thought I wonder if people would consider doing that from like journalism or journalism standpoint for for what I do high. Really, not sure it was gonna work out. I thought it was maybe fifty fifty I had actually just gotten a coat from Uber Uber because I thought well, this is nothing to work when I launched that. So I'm gonna have to do some psychics. I I was definitely sure that like, you know, for the year, it was gonna be really really tough. And but for whatever reason like the day, I launched it about end of that day like their response to such that it was like, wow. This is unbelievable. It's gonna work. And it's been it's been going ever since. So I mean, this is like I don't do any freelance stuff. A one hundred percent of my job. I don't have any advertising. It's just completely funded by readers, my podcast listeners. So I'm very very fortunate and lucky. Jeff when I checked the patriots site yesterday. You had a one thousand one hundred and thirty nine patrons as that is my math were checking on that. Roughly, correct. Yep. And I'm that's the highest. It's been actually right now. Because with the Daytona five hundred coming up typically NASCAR fans and more engaging this point. So I'm not stops the peak usually it's been around thousand so to have over eleven hundred right now, I'm feeling pretty good. So my question for you is who are who are your patrons? You know, obviously, I I don't want you to specific names. But just give me a sense of who these people are who are who are supporting this. Yeah. I mean, it's aren't as saying well, first of I this shit backup on for the last actually ten years. Now, I've been doing plea debts before each race and a meat. I just, you know, saying, hey, I'm going to be here for the race in another journalist. Bob Packers is now at FOX he comes out as well. And sometimes we'll have drivers come out or, you know, something, and it's just locating casual, but you know, you you always see people eating, you know, reading your staffer saying that and or hated on and it's so nice to put a face the name. So I thought to be how like recover on. Anyway. So took once a year going new lot of these people until and engage with your pumps. And so I just want to meet him and say, hi and see what's up. And so I kind of know like a lot of the names, actually. Just from interactional Twitter of the or some some of them are like people I hadn't heard of or have never met we'd ups even our our people don't races. But a lot of it's like oh out such his ups, and Tino, I see him over here at the personal race sounds like that. I mean, it's it's as far as I know listen using fake Moore says the no reserve pledging, which I'm actually kind of relieved about stuff like that would create that ethical the land on meal served like a, thanks. Thanks type type thing. But yeah, it's it's just a, you know, it's kind of a weird because you will close. Coming from her father, something right? And I have a thousand patients he moves intern. That's enough for me to have living in Taba all the races, or you know, the majority rations, and it's like those point that many people to make it work. He, you know, it's it's five or ten dollars donations permits, and you can you can do it off a relatively small or people who are just passionate about what you do. It's interesting. Are there any patriot patrons who have decided to just really kind of break the Bank? They just they've love this content in. They're like, Jeff, you know, I'm just gonna throw this number out there. I'm gonna give you five hundred dollars a month because I really want this enterprise to continue. No, the top one is a hundred dollars a month. When I I actually had a Keer, you know, there was a hundred dollars a month. And I was like, you know, I I don't think people will go this is, and I think about ten people within the first couple moats Atlanta in I think, well, that's really good. Obviously. I mean, those people are very appreciative with them. Like, those people like yourself grateful that you ended up texting with them alive and go hang out with them, raisins and stuff, you know, it it's I appreciate those people. But I think the longer term job security, just like anything the more sort of a patient. You have the more spread out. I think the better it is. So. Take down that tier and serve lower the tears because I would rather have like a lot of people signing up at five and ten dollars. Because then if they may only happens, I mean, people will get mad at an opinion or whatever or they'll say financial situation might change. Or, you know, the say did it for I didn't intend to do it, you know, long term. So when those people lead, you know, if it's if I hope to dollar Dotres taking cheats like oh. These players rations for this range amount of like, you know, I don't know if I should can afford to go to that one. So it's it's sort of better. They may Bennett nail like a magician lies on or something where it's just more spur of. Jeff, basically is it that the donations pay for travel housing maybe food and beverage on race weekend. Or does it also then extend to your week, you know, whether you know, just sort of your day to day expenses, your research that you have to do for pieces that you right where where the the majority of the funding. How would you break down in terms of wears ago? In honestly, the majority of its like for my daily life, like rent food have a form of Boll. That's that's already my wife. John, you know, it's it's great over morning for her, but financially aside from having health insurance, obviously big thing for everybody. You know? It's it's it's I think it all. So it's we're living off my town. And we're living off the patient. So pretty much thirty. I is is to pay rent. And then see what's leftover for travel. Not that get rich off. This is something that I enjoy doing and feel oil to these people to honest, and and feel like, you know, they've they've stepped up to to help me out in what I wanna do what my family Neva freedom with this. So I just wanna get out there as much as possible and show them that I'm sending their money to go to the track. And to meet them and at the tweet ups and things like that. I don't I don't want them to think. Well, he's just, you know, sitting home woman, then coming up the dollars like I'm trying to get out there as much as I can just to just to make sure that I'm I'm showing my face are you at every race or every sort of Sunday race on the circuit. I go to about three racism month typically early in the season late in the season. I'll go to a lot, but sort of midsummer Lola NASCAR. And you know, it's just a it's just a lot to Paris 'cause I've never done it. Even even USA today, would you know about thirty races year in there's thirty eight or camera. So thing I did like twenty eight or twenty nine events last year. And I also like Indy five hundred and things like that to mix it up. But yeah, it's it's tough. It's grown to do it every week. I want to before we get to the sort of the state of NASCAR. I want to one of the sort of interesting things about your position is that access obviously is vital for you. You know, you gotta get credential to these tracks to get access to the drivers access to the crew cheese pit crew access to the decision makers. But you don't have necessarily the phrase it like the protection of a big brand. If NASCAR sort of dislike something you right? It's a lot hard to bully. You know, USA today or Sports Illustrated around than single independent operator. Have you thought about the calculus of? I you know, I I have great respect for what you do. But are you do you think you can be as fearless in your position given that you are relying on nascar's access to get into these places? It's interesting. I mean, you know, ten years ago, I would have been a little bit more nervous about it. But now, I feel like, you know, nasty former, you know, as as we'll get to is not in the best place and media wise, you're looking at a lot of these new centers being fairly empty compared to what they were. I believe there's no more newspapers less country that cover NASCAR full-time basis, including USA today things since since I've left there Q more because there who were cut the motorsports rivers off the beat and things like that. So the Charlotte server only doesn't handful of races. Now, they to the other. So you know, if NASCAR Lincoln one. Never gonna be like, you know, come comeback. I, you know, that's, you know, honestly, actually might be okay. Because then the faint he'd be so mad. You know, you might get like, oh, you know, people were pledging to for me be like. Like this guy because he's stand up against me man or something, you know, I I don't wanna be in that position. But I people think I'm there, and then, you know. You get people say, oh, you're you're in too harsh on NASCAR. You keep critical of NASCAR. Then you get other people in the very next week saying while you kissing them starts. But so I think that's that's kind of where I wanna be. I don't want people to think that I'm wondering that that did happen. You know, I that it's it is risk everything else. So Jeff I want to talk about the state of NASCAR. I mean, just even hearing that no newspaper in the US is sort of covering NASCAR full-time is just it blows my mind. So to for the purposes of our discussion just give you a quick background. I I've been to seven races in my life, and those came when I was at Sports Illustrated. I had a eight week assignment or nine week assignment. Where I went to seven tracks. We did a gigantic NASCAR pole of fans and. And like my assignment was basically to talk people in the RV's and to hang out where people were traveling to for the weekend. It was an incredible glimpse of the sport. It changed. My perception of what I thought NASCAR fan was, you know, as a grownup as a New Yorker, I didn't really have any kind of sense probably other than stereotypes. But that that trip blew my stereotypes out of the water from I'm at PHD's who were travelling in NASCAR, you know, I met people from all sorts of place in the country met wine drinkers from California. So it it was amazing just because it blew up my perception, which I really appreciated, but the one thing for my filibuster here. Jeff is when I covered this. And I think it was in the maybe nine hundred ninety nine or two thousand I don't remember the date NASCAR was so hot. And the idea that this sport wasn't gonna blow up was impossible to me. I remember my buddy, LARs Anderson, and Mark Bechtel recovering. Sl was putting out these massive magazine. A fellow like the sport of the future like on steroids, and now in twenty nineteen like, whatever I covered back, then just feels like it's gone. And it's not to say that millions don't watch it because you know, three or four million people still watch it a weekend. But it changed and I wonder just from your perspective. Why did that happen? What why did the sort of the media, at least in terms of a lot of the mainstream media, abandoned, the sport? Because it seems like they clearly did. I think you know, as far as from a media perspective, you know, so much of a sports editors looking at the bottom line, and and their dwindling resources and be like, all right? Well, we're we're we best served to have a reporter than you know, as as the the stands got more and more epi and the ratings are down down. I think that was an easy decision easy for some people some ways because it's like, well, look, I mean, we can take AP. And are we really doing really need our own guy covering this nationally in those play like that, you know, it's probably like, I forgot often motor sports. But I think arneses like NAS car is so much more similar to call than that people have given credit for in in tracking the demise. Because you know, you use lost. They were there for the the decline as well. But you've lost some major major star power. You know, you've lost junior. Just Gordon Tony Stewart Canada paratroops that when you look back at it. You know, like, I I would watch off pretty regularly myself, you know, as sports fan, but you know, over the last couple of years or so tiger themes relevant. You know, I cut myself watching his with even the majors. I'm like, you know, I don't know. Maybe I'll watch on Sunday anything contention. But I I wouldn't watch it. And I think the same thing kind of Nash this point like the star power of the guys who are left. I think a lot of being stream sports fans me there scratch out or I don't know people have to be Jonasson these seven championships. Chase Elliott is the new most popular driver and the son of the who was a longtime racer Kyle Busch's out though, he's he's one of the most closely guys ever seen. But I just you know, people walk I live in Poland door game. You know, walk down downtown point. It'd be like, hey name one has her and peop-. Will say that for two hundred. Nope, sorry. Yeah. I just don't know if that's there's I really think feel like a lot of us do with starpower and then NASCAR slow at the time chasing demographic of Williams mowing up that mainstream sports fan was so so so track for them, and they were doing all sorts of their wanted mentioned the racist was southern five hundred Darlington, which is moral, South Carolina. And they moved that race on Labor Day weekend to paying which is near LA, the this whole marketing Hollywood can't pain, and you know, LA I mean now it's like, yeah. Initial NASCAR taking their business. You know, one of those traditional raises and moving to LA people like they're flipping out. And so people abandoned it never came back. So it's sort of the competence to those things I think are the biggest contributors to it. How much do you think a factor is in terms of ESPN which for so long has been the most dominant sports brand in this country, not not paying I know that they were they have been times part of the NASCAR been a neat NASCAR media rights holder. But generally speaking if you watch ESPN a twenty four hour cycle on all these different shows. You're not getting any NASCAR. Maybe I mean, you'll get it on the sports center on the day the nascar's big race. But as a general rule NASCAR doesn't exist on ESPN. How much of that is a factor in terms of where the sport is right now in the US. I'm thinking it's somewhat but NASCAR was already in pretty that shapes. Or like, I think when he has the N left. I mean the last couple years in the broadcasting it and being but ES not proud partner. I mean, it was it was flying downhill point where I think they were like I dunno. If we, you know. Pronounced car like that plays in that be part of that mainstream than you know, now. Yes, PIN is says limits their last full phone NASCAR guys recently on. But you know, it's like the TV deal that NASCAR. So with NBC BCS s like, the billions that they got from that that is like singlehandedly tapping sport during this down to, you know, tracks right now, the re-stripe they're making as much more money than they've ever made despite the Corrib because you know, over two thirds of their money is coming from the teeny deal, which is the highest does. And and that money's guarantees. I think your two thousand twenty four and it has a slight increase each year. So and they sign us deal. You know before the downturn got super super severe, then you know, NBC and factor are still pay. So even. Oh, it would have been nice to be on ESPN for NASCAR. And be part of that conversation, especially when you're talking about getting saved people watching the money that's coming instant, even through this term is I think huge for nurse part. It's interesting NASCAR Cup series last year average three point three million viewers cross thirty three races on NBC, FOX NBC S N. And if s one that was down from four point one in twenty eighty twenty seventeen and then down from four point five million in in twenty sixteen. So those are going those numbers are going the wrong way, it it was interesting to me because I remember being on NBC conference call I think we're NBC was sort of boasting that they thought they had the marketing and firepower to get an increase in that didn't happen. They got the exact opposite. Is there anything you see out there that could be a catalyst to turn? This around or do you think we're looking at try like hell to hold that base around three million as long as you can? And they'll ultimately be slippage. But you're just trying to basically hold the base in not have everything bottom out. I mean, I think a year of just relatively flat would be a huge Lynn for them in. And I think, you know, started had leadership changes though, at the pump where there it sounds like from from what you're seeing about an embarrassed into in the woods, read between woods. They're they are going to focus on that core fan out. You know, they're sort of this thought, I think NASCAR even up until you know, year or two ago where they're like, well, we can still get that mainstream fan interest. We can still attract lineal the to the front lines. Minds. I feel like they I just don't see it. I mean, you're not gonna get people who have never been NASCAR fan. This point to visit front of a TV for three hours and watch the cars gore and circle being you just it's it's a tough. So I think the way to do it is to build a an entire new generation of kids. You know, get kids in involve elementary school with doing. I mean, they're like stem programs leak NASCAR to that get kids the track. And then once they grow up with it. That's something. And then, you know, just general try to get people to bring my friends travel because once you, of course, like if you experience, it's a whole different thing. I'll say I I hate it NASCAR. Honestly, I thought it was really stupid. I grew up in northern California. So we didn't have any NASCAR exposure my first job in rocking. Carry like I mentioned NASCAR country and they're like, hey, we're gonna sing a race. Then like, oh, God, really? You know, he let's you go you're like, oh, okay. Okay. I get it. I get I think, you know, there was such a a greed involve to the entire industry. Whenever guys printing money. They're like you to move yoursel seems pollsters, but that was a real sought like in four no five like, yeah. We're gonna really match the NFL we're gonna take some of their viewers away on Sundays. So I think finally that realization set in they're gonna focus on the core and relaxed try to do things for them at the schedule. Apparently, you know, they they get back to what the core fans are asking for it. Hopefully that can retain some of that audience and make those people happy, you you are correct on what you say. And again, I'm sort of living proof is when you actually go out and see it. It's amazing it I mean, none mentally I had a press pass. I could walk through the garage. I was able to sort of see the sport from close up, which was amazing. But it really is kind of like a very very cool experience. If you are there one last thing on this Jeff understand for sure you want to sort of you want the court, you want to sort of get some buyback back again from the core fan and to and to make sure that the core fan fuel served by the product, demographically, the US, of course, changing far more people of color in the. The United States. Do does NASCAR. I would. I would say the answer is. Yes. But how is NASCAR trying to get more people? Under the tent there is it seems to me to have a two pronged approach to take care of the core fan at the same time. I think you have to get young people particularly young people a caller to sorta get interested in your sport. If you want the sport to be around fifty hundred years from now. Yeah. I think they knew that you know, almost a hundred percent not speak for them. But through getting driver of calm or getting relevant team driver. I mean, you know, respected daily, but she did produce results at all. And so it was sort of like, you know. Yeah, you're giving people tune into watcher. But she's not doing anything she finishing twentieth. I mean, imagine if you had a winning female driver or bubble Vala who is the first over to eight a while many years of to Java fulltime rally in the second year. No, if he came you know, re win races are run up further be part of the curve sation. That'd be huge. Unfortunately, he's with one of the lowest performing teams, right new. So someone's gonna have to change their that he's gonna have to get a better ride for that time and dangerous. Florida's is a driver for Mexico. And you know, I think they feel strongly that you know, if he was winning races. And could start being relevant. You know, it's personalities in NASCAR and people could be stars. But the problem is in less their winning. You don't really have a reason to talk about the big key. You know, get so excited about guidance. Twentieth. Every week. So you've got to find drivers who match those demographics and reflected them graphics. And then people in the demographics can be like. Oh, yeah. Like that's somebody who I can watch sports on. You know, I I would hope that that needs to happen. Nascar cars point, the ethnic diversity programs and things that it just hasn't produced like major results yet. So here's the last topic. I wanna get to jevon this is kind fascinating too. Because I think you're one of the best people in the sports media to answer. This question seeing your success, which makes me really happy. The fact that you're covering the sport, you're coming sport at a high level. I have great respect for your voice. It strikes me that if. Somebody wanted to use your model for let's sort of just take the NBA. Okay. Obviously somebody like Agent Orange announce gear powered back or more Eckstein. They're not going to go out and do this at the moment may be given the salaries that they're paid. But it does strike me that someone could use the same model for a bigger sport. And really have incredible living doing it covering the NFL covering the NBA covering college football, the the the patriot way. Do you think that what you are doing can be duplicated on the bigger sports, or because these bigger sports have mainstream places that employ people that can give them, you know, significant high salaries that it's not going to be the case in for your model. It might only work for the quote, unquote, more niche sports. She I think that he could work for big sport. But the qualifier of that being a specific marketer team. Because if you look at it like notionally, I think the national for NASCAR is probably the five, and like, you know, I don't know at this hour coddling beat media. I mean, I. But I've heard a couple you know, Carolina Panthers game. And I'd say, you know, they'd be the beat core for NASCAR slightly bigger, the nap, and it just inside like an average NFL city or maybe Doug average NFL city. So it to make it work for somebody. Do you're gonna have some people are super passionate about on in that they don't they don't want it to go away. Right. I mean because in that was that was the thing with me like I mean, just me like this wasn't gonna work out. Like, I was no longer going to cover knows fair because I it just wasn't going to happen to be able to take a job in Charlotte. And I needed something to make this work. So that the are the cream it is if you like what I do use how you can support it. So, you know, if it's it is a Dallas Cowboys beat writer, whom he'd like a lovely in cowboy community or something like mine having already following. And they wanted to go out on their own. I think the the resources with either on patriots. Do it. I think you know, you could say that also fair the own sports Neo like if somebody it was a imprisoning came on news, and like super like EKO, news focus, and they was like doing all of a sudden people really like their coverage. I'm gonna go to do this. I think people support it. But I think the problem is I can talk a national baseball beat writer, and you're like, okay, I'm only patron model. If you don't have you're not alone. And you don't have like this huge phone, and and you're gonna use take audience team when promising all making news, or whatever I just don't know people are passionate about it like on a national level, but they're passionate about their individual teams. So that's where I feel like it can work. Jeff Gluck is one of the foremost NASCAR reporters of the last tech aid. Plus as he described on this podcast. He now covers the sport the crowdfunding through his patriot checkout, Jeff Gluck dot com. If you're if you're a NASCAR fan to me, he's an absolute must read in this case sort of a a must fund and his Twitter account as well is if you're on Twitter, it's at Jeff underscore, Glock. I believe that's right at Jeff underscore Gluck. You should be following him of sure if you're listening to this as an escort January are, but if you're a casual NASCAR fan, Jeff to me is he's essentially as vital as Agent, Orange Naski is in his sport. Jeff, I got great respect for you. And I'm glad we were finally able to do this continued success. And thank you so much for joining me today in the sports media podcast. Yeah. Like, I was gonna say it was not that. I caught south. But yes, it was invaluable. And I'm not thinking and looking forward to listening to more podcast. Thank you for including me. All right back in the studio. My thanks to Jeff Gluck. But thanks to all my guests. Mark, fainter, WADA and Shannon speak. That was a really really interesting episode. I know it's long. But but I hope you guys liked it. If you like this kind of content, please leave us a review on apple podcast. Subscribe give us a review everybody else in the world has for five star reviews. So I might as well ask it as well. But that honestly is just how this podcast continue independent podcast. So we need your support to make it work. Go through all the apple podcast that we have done if you are interested in this last week, Jim Miller, and I had a long discussion on Adnan Virk and first of all thank you for listening that for probably coming close to record numbers there. Maybe everybody from the eight six oh area code. But but that was really really interesting. And I appreciate that. But go through all the lists from Rene young respell. Min Djamil hill, Candace Parker, Rebecca Lobo, Adam Schefter. We've tried to bring you a lot of interesting roundtables as well. As interesting guests. Lou Pellegrino is the producer of this podcast. And he is excellent at what he does. I thank him for his time. Thank you to cadence thirteen. This is Richard. I see again on the sports media podcast.