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Bonus episode: Arthur Books in conversation with Simon Sinek


Hi, everybody. Here's a bonus episode of the Arthur Brooke show in your feet. This is a conversation that I had with Simon cynic about the idea of loving, your enemies. Actually, it's a conversation that Simon had with me. Now, if you're not familiar with Simon Senate, he's the New York Times bestselling author of start with why leaders eat last and we've been friends for a long time. This was recorded in front of a live audience at the ninety second street y in Newark city a couple of weeks ago. It was really a great conversation. We talked about contempt, and our modern society. And now, it's it's wrecking our relationships and even hurting our happiness, we talked about the fact that you can't be persuasive. When you're insulting other people that treating other people with love and respect is the only way you're gonna have a chance of convincing. Anybody of anything we go through step by step? How loving your enemies is an incredibly practical and happiness inducing strategy for each one of us to adopt in our lives. So I hope you enjoy your. Evening. I am Mark Schultz that chairman emeritus of the board of the ninety second street, y and it's my privilege tonight. To welcome you to this very special event. Love your enemies, Arthur Brooks in conversation with Simon cynic. Let me just quickly note this is being recorded for Arthur Brooks podcast series. So when we come to Q, a just keep in mind, we're going to be recording the program. Let me tell you a little bit about each of the two gentlemen, who were very lucky to have here tonight. Simon cynic trained ethnographer has devoted his life to share in his thinking in order to help leaders and organizations. Inspire action from American Airlines Disney from big business entrepreneurs to police forces Simon has had the honor of sharing his ideas with an array of leaders and organizations in nearly every industry. He's also the author of multiple bestselling books including start with UAE leaders eat last together as better and find your own y find your wife's us me. And that's not this why. Although we do hope you'll find that. So his new book the infinite game will be released in June two thousand nineteen so please be on the lookout for that. We can get him back here to talk about his book, but simul wonderful tonight's program speaking with some with Arthur Brooks who is a columnist for the Washington Post host of the podcast, the Arthur Brooke show, as I mentioned, the we'll be recording for tonight and president of the American Enterprise Institute, a public policy think tank in Washington DC, I also have the great personal privilege of content him, very, dear and longtime friend previously. He was the Louis Banta professor of business and government at Syracuse university. His latest book that will be focusing on tonight. Love your enemies outlines a series of practical strategies for leaders in all areas of life who wished to subvert the culture of contempt and usher in new era of American progress. Something I'm quite sure we all are very sympathetic to love your enemies will be on sale in the lobby afterward. And a book signing will take place encourage you all to pick up a copy and read it it is terrific. So without further ado, please join me with the ninety second street y in welcoming, Arthur and Simon. I'm gonna put your book like that. All right. That's good. Thanks everyone for coming. It's a particular thrill for me. I'm a huge fan of Arthur's and of the way he thinks. And when I heard that he was he knew that he was writing the book when he was writing it. And it was one of those things where you think why hasn't this been written yet? Why why has no one else in this book before? So so glad you did. Write it. Thank you a relief to me that. No that nobody had written it by the time. It isn't it? Yeah. That's always a plus definitely a plus. So what we thought we would do tonight is have Arthur share a little bit about. How he came about the idea, and what his what his thoughts are and how to cure some of the challenges we have in our country today. And then we'll feel some of your questions afterwards. If you could can you share the story of New Hampshire, which I think is so good that really sets the stage for for this idea. Thank you, Simon. And then the admiration that I have for years, you know, is analogous. We've been friends for a number of years now, and we met at a kind of a political event that we're a lot of protesters outside and we felt mutually under siege. And is one of these bunker things where we bonded over an event where there were people picketing outside. It's great. And and your your books have had a huge impact on me. So thank you. Thanks very much. And thanks to all of you, by the way. So what signs referring to is an incident stimulated this book, love, your enemies. And most of you know, that idea love your enemies as ancient and subversive concept that comes from almost every major religious tradition yet either. It's not good enough to love your friends because that's easy in the love people who don't love you. And that civility intolerance are not high enough standards are actually garbage Sanders. You know, it's one of the things that I plan on the book is if I said, Simon my wife Esther, and I we were civil to each other. It's a dude you need counseling. Or my employee's that they tolerate me say, that's. Big problem, we need a higher standard. And that's what I'm seeking this. And I got started thinking about this in two thousand fourteen when I started to recognize that there was a political train coming down the tracks. That was not good for America. Or ended the world. I was doing a speech in New Hampshire a conservative event. I do a lot of the hundred and fifty or so speeches year, and sometimes they're very progressive audiences at universities, and sometimes they're non-political sometimes they're conservative. It was the latter group and seven hundred conservative activists in the audience, and it was talking about politics and economics and foreign policy and stopped in the middle. Because I was actually the only non candidate on the schedule. Everybody else's running for president. I mean in twenty fourteen half of America was running for president and or was going to. And I thought it was sitting backstage listening to the speeches and they were doing politicians always do throwing red meat at the audience and. Saying you're right near the guys radiates. So I thought I don't have to run for anything something passed. And what can I do that would make it better? So I made this little plan in the middle of the speech, I stopped. And I said, no, I know that the things that I'm saying might be sympathetic ideas. All of you in the audience, but I want you to remember the people who are not here because they don't agree with us, politically political progresses, and I want you to remember that they're not stupid and evil. They're just Americans who disagree with us on public policy and a new it wasn't going to be an applause line. But there was an applause line that followed from somebody else who said lady, she said, I think they're stupid Nevil. And there's was applause, and I didn't take offence. It was it was like a dumb Jo-. Right. But, but here's what I thought that moment is kind of an epiphany for me, actually, because my mind that moment went to Seattle, which is my hometown Seattle was many of you know, is the most progressive sitting America. My father was a called professor my mother's a painter in Seattle. What do you think politics were? And I realized that that lady was insulting my mom. And I I took it personally. My dad used to say when I was a kid that the Mark of moral courage is not standing up to the people with whom you disagreed that might be important. That's good as meritorious, but it's not it doesn't require courage to stand up against people you with disagree. Moral. Courage comes from standing up to people with whom you agree on behalf of those. With whom you disagree. And I thought to myself this is the secret to saving this country. Not doing what people are doing here. Which is trashing the other side where they're not present it standing up and saying I don't want you to talk that way about the people with whom you disagree because that's what makes a great country. And that my friends is a Mark not of civility and not of tolerance. And it's not even agreement because agreements terrible agreements monopolies. Interesting disagreed, it's love, and that's what set me on. The panther writes this book to do the research that actually talks about the brain science and the behavioral science about. How can we do this? How can we be happier? How can we be more successful? And by the way, how can we be more persuasive because it turns out that nobody in history has ever been insulted into agreement. Yeah. I think people forget that. You don't make peace with your friends. You can only make peace with your enemy and. And that the leadership or the courage is can come from either side. But it's the one who sort of extended the branch, I rather than demanding concessions before the brench will be that's right. And if we're looking for in the business of if we talk about contentious things, which you, and I do sometimes and some people in audience to actually we all do in America today because we're always talking about controversial things if you're not it means you're around too, many people who agree with you. And either it's virtually it's online or it's in person, or it's around the thanksgiving table or something and the job if you really believe in something your heart's in it should be persuasion, if it's not persuasion than it's just virtue signaling or or scratching in it. And you're not going to be persuasive unless you show love ever. So there's much written in there's much already talked about about media echo chambers that indeed we are surrounding ourselves with people who agree with us. And we only tune in to hear the things that we know that we'll agree with for the. Most part, right? And it can rile us up and get us incensed against the opposition. So so how how what have you learned in in in the research about persuasion? What is what are we doing? What can we do better? What can the media do better? How do we actually persuade people rather than bash them over the head? So to begin with we have to recognize the problem in the way that we communicate with each other politically and one of the things that I talk about is to start by saying we to angry. And the answer is no angers, actually, not a problem of anger is believe it or not not correlated with separation or divorce in married. Couples. Anger is uncool it with force. Which is great. I'm married to a Spaniard. Thank God anger is on correlated with divorce. What's correlated with divorce because you know, marital? Discord is the ultimate metaphor for all, you know, human interaction. And I I went to one of the wisest people that I know about this, which is the world's leading expert and marital reconciliation has got him. John GOP teaches teaches university of Washington Seattle. He's a marriage therapist and social psychologist was the gotten in marriage laboratories, great. I think it's funny that he runs a laboratory for I know, I know, but what he does in this laboratories, he studies why people break up and he's brought to the process of this him and his wife. Julie can imagine they got divorced. That'd be the first marriage. Right. It is only marriage thing. Then I asked him that just I mean, I mean like divorce attorneys will divorced. Yeah. That's right. They're good at it. Don't marry divorce attorney. That's insane. So. Free advice. So John Gottmann. I asked him what predicts divorce and he says that he can he can council married couple briefly. And with ninety four percent, accuracy predictive. He'll be divorced within three years. Go on. Yeah. Yeah. All all you married people. You wanna know I rolling number one predictor signs of not of anger of contempt. Schopenhauer said that eight hundred sixty contempt is the unsullied conviction of the worthlessness of another right in other words, which is what I roll tunnel. Communicates yet. Derisiveness sarcasm dismissal done that, you know. It's funny because I saw that how man I just saw itself. I looked at myself on a debate or something on CNN or on TV. And and it was somebody who was making a point that I thought was particularly ill-founded and. Rolled my eyes. I mean, this is vision TV I mean, it's like I'm guilty. And I thought I don't wanna be that guy. Why? Because I don't hate that person. Yeah. I have nothing against that person that person simply disagrees with me, and I need to if I want to persuade in persuade people watching by the way, I gotta show love you never have been at an interaction with somebody. With whom you disagree, and you show contempt and create an enemy, and then and then say that was great when I did never. And when you when you fail to do that. And you actually show kindness and respect and love you never say later. I wish I'd been more of a jerk. This is just not how we're wired and yet we racked this way. So here's the problem. We have a culture of contempt as the subtitle in this book is the culture how a decent people can save America from the culture of canton, and it starts with each one of us. Here's the good news. You can break the cycle each one of us can break the cycle by by recogni-. Ising? There's a habit. I don't wanna be a bad person. Ninety three percent of Americans hate how divided we become a country. But yet we're the ones contribute because we have a habit. So one of the things I talk a lot about in. This book is how habits reformed how has can be broken. Because each one of us is going to have a mission having a pasta it against this then went into break her own habits, and it goes to this Buddhist masters. They talk about stimulus and response and maximizing the space between that so you're stimulated treats you with contempt. Have all the time. If you're on social media it'll happen within twenty four seconds. Okay. So civilly, treat contempt, and if you have no space between your stimulus and response, you'll rack with contempt Buddhist masters talk about maximizing the space between stimulus response into wish you choose your own reaction, which makes you the master. So give a practical example, your mother who is a Buddhist master. Your mother's here. But I mean, all messed and all of your mother's were Buddhist masters why because your mother's told you to count to ten before when you're angry for your act. That's what you should do you count to ten why? Because your mother is saying choose your response. So here's how I it was working on this research, and I understand this because I've been a meditators and understands stimulus response cadence. But I what do I put in there? So I was doing a documentary film. It's actually coming out this spring called the pursuit, and in it, we're in Dharamsala with his holiness, the Dalai Lama, and we were working together like six or seven years, and we were shooting these scenes and between takes having a conversation with them. I said this is on my mind, my heart your holiness. What should I do when I feel contempt and he said, he said show, warm heartedness? And I said or thought you got anything else? Because that's weak thought about it. A lot of you here. You know, the story of his holiness, the Dalai Lama, the leader that Tabet and Buddhist people he's super famous, but when he was leading to exile after the communist Chinese rolled through Tabet six million people vast land mass people who had no military capability doing what tyrants always do by the way, which is a role militarily through population for resources to bet holds the headwaters of all the major Chinese rivers. He was lead. He was he led his people in exile at age twenty four. Now, he could have responded with contempt and anger and tried to get put out a press release or something. But he didn't he was poor. And he was to be disappeared in forgotten. And he's for the next sixty years has started every told me he started every day praying for the Chinese leaders not that they'll give them back as homeland, but they'll live good and happy lives, and he's become the most respected religious leader in the world and the cause of Tibet. Is an international cause which I promote. And I believe in. There's zero percent chance that the guy who's the president of the American Enterprise Institute is going to be an advocate for the Tabet in Buddhist. People have the Dalai Lama responded to his situation with contempt. That's power man that is strength answering contempt with contempt for weak people answering content with warm heartedness is for true masters. You have a wonderful phrase that that in this book that I love the outrage industrial complex. Which is this business of contempt to sell advertising, and contempt breeds contempt. And there are a few people who profiting from our contempt both financially but for to benefit their elections as well. Yeah, tell tell us more about contempt outrage industrial complex. So there's a group nonprofit group called more in common that does outstanding original surveys polling of people's attitudes. And they they want to bring the country in the world together, which is the ultimate meritorious. 'cause in my view, they find that ninety three percent mention this minute. Ninety three percent of Americans hate how divided we become a country and nothing pulls at ninety three percent. Moms popularity is not even a ninety three percent is incredible. It's just like here's the problem. That means seven percent like how polarized we've become country. That's because they're profiting from it might not be. Profiting in money. They might lucrative television contracts, and money and fame and power and influence, and prestige and cliques and popularity attention. You know that Semper sent but we hear virtually all of you. I hope all of you. Join me and Simon in the ninety three percent. So we gotta fight back. The outrage industrial complex is using us. They're bullying us their terrorizing the country by driving us to be against each other. We have differences politically. So actually, it was great. I mean, that's the fruit of democracy. That's the promise of this country. That's the reason that the cynics and the brooks' one of the reasons as ambitious riffraff they made their way to America. So they could work hard and rice, the top disagree and not have a knock in the night and the jack-booted thug the door we have to protect that. And we have the the world on our side or at least ninety three percent. Percent of the country on our side. That's a really great thing. The outrage industrial complex right now is sort of driving the bus. But it's time for us to take the wheel. Do we we take the wheel by recognizing that it's a big problem for us recognizing that we're being torn apart, and we cannot reconcile and we can't make progress as long as they are in charge. And the first thing that you do is you deprive oxygen to those who need it who need the attention who need the clicks who need the money who need the the views, and so one of the things except there the car accidents that were turning we're slowing down to watch. So we simply speed up. No. And one of the knowledge how is my view knowledge is power on this. We have to make a moral choice about what we want to give our attention to and most people again they're scratching each. There's a habit of contempt. We if we don't like the habit, we have to be conscious of it and break the habit. So you have to substitute something for and you will find that. If. Expand the the space. I talked about in great in great detail in this book between civilised response, and you put warm heartedness in it. You will not be interested in outrage industrial complex anymore. So does that mean FOX Jewish turnoff, FOX MSNBC view as you turn on him? ABC? It is whatever is scratching your issue. Your favorite columnist your favorite news network. Your whatever if something is really ideologically biased, and it's firing you up, and it's telling you anybody who's saying, you're right. And they're stupid. Newt do you know what this is analogous, the Nagas analogous to is an app a game on your phone that you're dictate to whatever. And. Spend money. So you can keep playing and then one day, you realize you're not talking to your friends, and you're sitting there, and you're just delete it and you never miss it. It's amazing or you do miss it for day or two the habit. It's funny. There are these four profit or profitable companies and people throughout history that make people miserable, and they work on dopamine dopamine, the neurotransmitter of concentration and focus and. It's what gets you addicted almost everything that's addictive and not just drugs and alcohol, but gambling and cell phones, cell phones and social media. And and what the problem is. You hate it. But you keep doing it. Back in the day. It was RJ Reynolds. And Philip Morris Companies that you gave all your money to that. We're really working on dopamine and people have largely walked away in this country from those addictive products. Now, it's social media social media absolutely is working on the dopamine circuits in our brains, and it stimulates the most dopamine when it tells us what we want to hear. And that the people that we don't like our stupid Nevil. It's amazing when you look at the apps on your favorite newspaper, and you read your favorite columnist who's firing you up and telling you the other side is dumb. You get to the bottom. And it's monitoring your viewing habits to give you the next article that you get you a little bit more fired up. This is on purpose. We're being used. It's not right. And it's time for us to take our take it back. So one of the things I'd love to get your opinion on is. I'm fascinated by the difference in the way conservatives are able to support other conservatives even when they viscerally disagree with them. And behind the scenes, maybe even have contempt for them. And yet publicly they will fall in luck Staten and liberals will eat their own the middle's liberals with somebody just you might have had years of agreement and something happened and they'll eat their own spit them out like nobody's business. Talk. Just I'd love to get your opinion of why that happened. Well, it's funny because conservatives say the same thing, but in reverse they think that liberals go in lockstep and the conservatives eat their own and are not loyal to each other. That's true. Well, it's. Objectively what's happening is whatever side you're on. You actually see the civil war going on on the other side you see solitaire. But we know that's not true. I mean, just look at what happens in congress. I mean. I mean, I'll Franken's a great example. I mean without any kind of investigation or anything with you or l Franken did the thing that he did or not the party reacted and pushed him destroyed his career, pushed them out entirely. Whereas. If you wanna take the Cavanaugh hearings, whether you agree with Kevin did it or not. It was just remarkable to see that the conservatives just fell into lockstep. The example that a lot of people are talking about on the and those similar accusation. Yeah. A lot of people are talking on the political, right? These days about what's going on with charges of anti-semitism in the Democratic Party. And why why is there not a full throated denunciation of anti-semitism? And again, only Democrats can as an independent. I can't answer that only Democrats can answer. Whether the political calculation is such that, it's not either not meritorious or not warranted. So this is a problem and increasingly answer problem where tribalism takes precedence over over principal. And you know, it's easy for all of us to do that. It's really really easy to to see the sins of the other side in greater focus and with greater gravity than sins on your own side. But that's exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. We should be more. Moral armed when people who agree with us transgress on our own values that should really make us angrier. And we should hold them to hire a count. You think about it? And yet we don't because power is attractive, and it seems everybody's telling us in the seven percent outrage industrial complex that this is the election that matters more than any time in our lifetime that this is the moment in which we have to come together, and we lower standards what I find. So interesting. And and you know, I preached by partisanship actually work with both parties quite openly as do I because we both have. And the point is Arthur I've made the decision, which is we preach bipartisanship. And then pick aside. And what I find so astonishing is sort of New Hampshire, which is when one one group of people in one political spectrum, and it's just politics, actually view the other side is evil evil evil. There was an amazing interview. With Kristof volts and David Letterman winning glorious bastards was in the movies. I don't know if you've seen the moving glorious bastards gray movie and Chris Volz plays this the Nazi. In chilling, an effective portrayal. And in this interview with crystal volts, David Letterman asked him, what did you have to do as an actor to be able to portray evil so effectively and Christopher looks at him. Absolutely confused. You see him trying to understand the question you, see the wheels turning and he's any any kind of doesn't understand the question that he says to let them in. He wasn't evil. And then let him ask the question again is what did you have to do to playboy in Kearney? Like where did you have to go inside yourself to to muster that up? And again, Chris Volz doesn't understand the question. And he says something completely unrelated. And eventually they move on. You can see it's going to go nowhere. And what you realize what make what made Kristof volts such an effective actor is no one thinks they're on the side of evil. Everyone thinks they're on the side of good. And the way he was able to play the character. So effectively is he as an actor said this guy absolutely believes in the goodness of what he's doing. Yes. And I think this is our problem in politics today, which is only we can label the other side evil. They're isis. They're on the side of good. You know? And the idea of empathy. Which is to to absolately believe that the other side, though, we may disagree with them. Absolutely believes they're on the side of goodness. And the opportunities to try and understand what is driving that. With an open heart of athlete. Right. And it's something that that ninety three percent of us who think that our country's divided are not doing because we're the ones calling the other side evil, and they're the ones that have to s into when somebody's calls the other side or acquiescing. We're falling in line with our favorite columnist. We're not needing them or better yet repudiating. So there's this great research by gyna- Madame weights who teaches at Northwestern University on something called motive attribution a symmetry. You like. Sort of complicated in any way. It's simple idea. But you have to say it in a complicated way to get tenure. Which is why I've never been given tenure. I've had it's not it's not really that. Great. You quoted shopping Hauer when we started and and the date. That's why you got tenure. I was at a communist that gave me nothing. So so motive attribution they symmetry is this incredibly interesting phenomenon in which you have two sides in a conflict where both sides are convinced that they're motivated by love and the other side is motivated by hate. Now. Both sides think I'm motivated by love Arthur thinks that he's motivated by love and Simon's one of it by hatred and Simon thinks Simon is one of my love and Arthur's motivated by hatred Simon. And Arthur can't both be right Arthur might be wrong. But we can't both be right. When does this occurred generally in periods of confrontation, military, confrontation, you see a ton of it and the Israeli Palestinian conflict both sides uniformly that they are motivated by love for humanity and for their country, and what's right and good and the other side thinks, and they think that the other side motivate hatred for them. Okay. Now, why is this? An interesting piece of research is published in the proceedings of the National Academy of sciences in two thousand fourteen that today in America, liberals and conservatives have the same. Level of motive attribution as symmetry as the Israelis and Palestinians big problem because that's the ultimate kind of tribalism was basically than people can get you to almost anything. If you basically in the weirdest thing is that when I had that experience in New Hampshire said, how can I do kind of a little quasi experiments on the road a lot? I'm talking a lot of different audiences left right and center. So I started asking this question. I'm gonna ask you now. I can't see very well. But I I'm gonna look out, and I'm gonna ask you just for a quick show hands. How many of you love somebody with whom you disagree politically? Kinda around that two hundred percent Simon. It's it's probably eighty five percents. Okay. Ninety percent see side. It's ninety three percents ninety three percent. Okay. All of you at your hands up. Ask yourself those people that you love who disagree with political. You disagree with you politically are they on those people motivated by hatred to you almost none of you would say, yes, you would say they're misguided say that they're wrong. It says that they have that information. You say they've been brainwashed by some Cable News Network, or by a bunch of politicians or the entertainment industry or something outrage industrial complex. So the problem is that attribution motive attribution as symmetry is based on an error by a cognitive functioning error that and we've been convinced of that because it gives people power we have to recognize that people who disagree with us, usually virtually none of the cases except for the crowning heights when people who are profiting from it. They don't hate us. They might be wrong. And again, none of this. Is to say that we need to agree more because I believe in the competition of ideas and soda you. I've even disagreement vigorous disagreements something's wrong, you should go after it hammer and tongs, but their ideas are not the person, and separating the person from the ideas means that you can treat bad ideas with the stain and still love a person and not treat the person this happened, isn't it right inches. We've personalized light. Right. We don't think their ideas are bad. We they're about layer bad. Why do we do that? I. Are you asking me? No, no, no. I'm asking you because you know. I think I think there's a number of reasons I think one of the big reasons is that. More and more and more would disconnected from the people with whom we're disagreeing with we we get angry on Twitter, we get angry on Facebook you, and I both know this which is. We can say something publicly and people will Ripa shreds. Online. But everybody's really polite when they come into the audience, you know. Because there's a respect when when you're when you're with someone plus the count to ten rule, I think is has been invalidated with the instantaneous nature of social media. Which is you read something, you're incensed you react, which is usually a reaction in your mind. But except you type it, and you had send I personally believe Twitter should have a twenty second delay. And then it says, you really sure you want to send this. Twenty hour. And and and I would I would I would I would put money down that most of the stuff that gets posted wouldn't get post the Roseanne bars and things like things that are done in poor taste or poor humor or the Adler is off or and I mean, I think I think there are people just didn't have a second to think through even I intended this to be funny. Should I really post this Trevor Noah, you know, even if I I'm being angry, should I believe post this? And I think the ten second rules a big a big thing this so smart, but I think the disconnected nece is is the thing. Dehumanisation dehumanisation individuals is the way you produce pieces as you meet your enemy, right? You shake. You have peace talks. Have you have you shake hands? It has to be done in person. William Yuri the guy who wrote getting to. Yes, who am I shoo fan up? He laments. The fact that we have peace talks. We don't have peace listens. And he was actually at the Camp David accords, which is when Yasser Arafat was offered. Ninety eight percent of everything he was asking for and couldn't make the deal. And Bill was there to help broker the peace that ended up collapsing? And I and I asked him. This is peace negotiators V highest level in the world. Arab-israelis at camp. David the world's best peace negotiators at the table. I said do they start with why they showed up? And he said, nah, they start with what they want and one side lays out what they want. And the other side lays out what they want and the negotiation begins of giving and taking but neither party says neither party asked. Why did you come here today? You're a busy person you got spending a lot of political capital to be here. The risk of failure will will will damage your reputation or maybe failing will enhance reputation what is the point of all of this nonsense. What is the point of all the stress, and it doesn't matter who goes first the party will say, it's simple. What I'm looking for is that our people want to feel safe that they go to work every day and come home and feel safe and send their kids to school every day. And that they feel safe coming home. We all want to be able to provide for ourselves and feel a part of something bigger than ourselves. Call it a nation state, call it and ideology right to which the other side can respond funny. That's what we want right now. Negotiate. And you can't do that. Very well when you're on Twitter you at all when you're on Twitter. No, we don't talk with people. We talk at people in social media. This is why by the way, Simon is not very much social media. I mean, you're living out your biggest bestselling book is start with y. Yeah. So you the principal here is by the way, this is operatives and all of our lives when you're in New York or Washington D C where I live is the most professionalized ambitious places in the world. You know, the question is everybody asks you to party? What do you do nobody ever asked? Why do you do what you do ever? You have an answer you need an answer. Read the book. No, no. I. I think I think that I think that what we have in America today is a mirror. I think we get the politicians we deserve. And I think we sit in our armchairs and say look at them. We hate the Republicans are at Democrats throws. We hate the Democrats or Republicans roads war we endorse our own contempt. The the other have contempt for the other. And I don't think enough of us have looked in the mirror and said shit. That's me. Because these are my friends to hear it as well. I hear my friends who have actual contempt for somebody who would say, I'm I'm a Republican or democrat or especially in New York City, if somebody says I voted for Trump there are people who voted for Trump who keep their mouth shut in parties. Not because they're embarrassed. But because they will be berated and humiliated and criticized in the most horrible way. So it's just you just keep it to yourself. And I think what's more interesting is to is for us to learn curiosity, which is if somebody voted for Trump to try and understand what motivated that decision rather than judging the person, I think is more interesting. And I think I think the Y question as opposed to the why I think I think yeah. Exactly, the why question, and I think we we cannot control the things that we cannot control. You can't control the Republican party of the Democratic Party. Neither can I we can't control the president or any of the secretary's. And the cabinet like we have no control of the thing. We can control ourselves and our environment. It's not big America. That's the problem. It's little merica. That's the problem. And I think the solution. We're looking for silver bullets. We're looking for to elect somebody who's gonna fix everything. And I wish it could be done that quickly and that easily, but it continent won't. And I think the our politicians will reflect us you meant why was living here in the eighties. When Ed Koch finally lost there and on the night when you find. Finally, lost you know, and he'd run run run says politicians sooner or later, your gonna lose sure he lost. And he said the people have made their decision. And now they're going to have to pay. We we want that we believe that the mere deserted. It's really deserve. It's really that was point. And that's really clear for sure, but we can fight back. We have. But what should we not love back and said, oh, we can't well fighting back with love is the ultimate is the ultimate of the moist. I'm trying to make okay. So let's get to some practical solutions about this. Right. We were talking about social media. So this is d individual people. You have a bigger problem. The biggest problem you're going to have is when you're not an actual person talking to somebody in person, you get an Email from Simon. It says if you're if you're with somebody and you're looking at your phone, please put down your phone and pay attention to that person before you read this Email because the people you with a more important than anything in this Email. That's yeah. Yeah. I almost got it. Right. Because I've seen it a bunch of times. I usually read that it's own back. What do you call it my signature, but it's actually comes. Before the message. Yeah. Yeah. It comes before the message. So okay. We need to Rian divis-. Wait ourselves any occasion in which you are not you. And what you're anonymous should be repudiated. And so one of the go through these rules, particularly young people who wanna be happier. There's a lot of new research that shows that every hour you spend on social media. You will be unhappier every hour will be an unhappier hours. A lot of good experimentation. Good. Stay in Michigan. Good study from Israel that with natural. Spend more time on Facebook unhappy with people who been let exactly right and Twitter, which is a contempt machine is worst. And according to a lot of these data that were currently starting to see. Okay. So what do you do re individual? It yourself starting with a few rules number one never ever interact with an anonymous entity. I mean, you can't tell, but you really know when somebody's, you know, Trump lover twenty twenty Bernie Brodie twenty twenty that's not actual. That might be a Russian Twitter bot for all, you know. But at very least somebody not taking responsibility for what he or she says second never be anonymous never say anything anonymously commit to a lack of anonymity. We don't live in Burma. This is not a dictatorial regime, where if you actually say what you think politically is going to be you know, a knock at midnight. You know, we're living in the one of the freest countries in the history of the world we can afford not to be anonymous. That's number two number three. This comes from John Godman, the marriage counselor. When he's got a he's got people that are on the rocks couples on the rocks. He makes them carry notebooks around and write down what they're thinking. And they want to say something critical to their partner. He makes them safe five loving things before they can get to the criticism because they have to remember how to not be critical when you're first in love, you can't think of anything critical. And then when you're about to get divorced. You can't think of anything criticism. So what does he make them? Do. He makes them go back to the early days. Manual. It's great. So it's like, you know, I can't believe you picked me up. I can't believe all alright you'll beautiful night. I love your mother forget that. By the time. You get through the five you don't remember the one that's your rule for social media. That's your rule for your all your interactions with other people. You can't do anything critical or negative even remotely until you said five beautiful, and affirming things and I've committed myself to this. I've lashed myself to the mask because. Public job our books. Yeah. And so when I say something if it's hypocritical or wrong or go against it. I'm gonna hear about it. Someone will let you know somebody will let me know my teenage kids will let me know, which is not that fun. So I've committed myself to the five to one rule, and you know, what happened if it's wind up being the fine two zero rule, and that's what we can do. This is a practical way for us to actually become warriors in the fight against contempt and four more love. And what you do is. You say, okay, I got it five five that's expanding the range between stimulus and response. Changed my life. I think the I think we'll switch to questions in now. Making a call them. The I'll share a story that really helped me which is I have a friend who lives in a small town in Tennessee near nothing an hour and a half from the nearest small city, rural Tennessee, she holds very very different political views to me. And she says things that are absolutely based on conspiracy theory. You know, some of the -rageous things that's what they want you to think. You know, the, but I'm not a conspiracy theorist. No, no, no. I am not a theorist either. But she she believes in a lot of these things like to the core of her being absolutely believes, the government is listening to all our phone calls and reading all our emails, and the government doesn't care what she's doing, you know. And I got her an Amazon Alexa for for Christmas. And she returned it. Because she thought the government would listen to everything. And it's been such. It's been it's so good for me. Because if we talk about political things or she says one of her theories, I I have I've become incensed and started screaming logic. You know? And it's been so good to me because I know her core. She such a good human being who cares about me with all her heart. And it's been so good to me to learn that her opinions are not her, and I can I can I can love somebody not love, their political points of view or views world, everyone of you has this. It's your it's your nephew. I think I think the spend time with those people are the most important thing right now. And it's not a criticism of her criticism of me that I would get angry. Sometimes. Yeah. No. It's amazing. The extent that we will also see eight look, it's very irritating. When people continuously say things that we think are wrong. And by the way, that are harmful and they're really hurtful to the country. But that's all. Always the way it's been there's always been bitter disagreement. And that's actually as much as it's hard to absorb in. The current moment you go back throughout history. And you see these big disagreements that were considered to be just existential disagreements in the vast majority of the -cations the United States. These were the source of strength. Ideological diversity without violence was the source of strength. Even when one side was was vindicated by the facts, the fact that we could adjudicate and aggressive way are disputes without violence that exercise is really important to the polity it's really important to American civic life. And so what I recommend people all the time is to say, but who you're talking to somebody that you think is just hopeless unreasonable is actually state to that person. And this is again, this is a this is something psychologists recommend, but Bush masters and Catholic priests and everybody tend to recommend is when you're listening to somebody really listen, you know, when they listen to understand. Yeah. When they. Talk about active listening, these classes and active listening. It's actually usually they're trying to help you fake listening. Here's how to act like you're listening waiting for your turn to right? That's not. That's not what we want to really listen to say, what is the person this person's moral objective? Yeah. No, what policy do they want? What party? They want their moral objective, and then to start by stating or asking is this what you really deeply want the following. And if you get that right in virtually every case, that's what you want to. And that is deeply satisfying that is deeply connecting between people because most people want the same thing, and they have I mean, look, they have different views, and they have different facts and sometimes they're woefully misinformed. And by the way, sometimes I am woefully. And this is one of the things I learned which is usually when we use the term conspiracy theory as a criticism of the way, the other person sees the world and there are liberal conspiracy theories. They're conservative spiracy theories. And what I learned was that. My conspiracy theories are just different from hers and some of hers actually have some credence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right insurance that Alexa, really is listening. Yeah. Except for the government. It's Amazon, you know, somebody in the in the heart of the State Department or the department offenses Simon bought more socks, right? I keep telling I keep telling people that that. To punish people in the government. They would make them listen to my phone. Let's do some questions. We we can we bring the house lights up is that possible as we can emission one thing. So one thing I had this little thrill being in here, and the reason. Yeah. Five years ago, thirty five thirty five forty five years ago on January twenty first I made my New York concert debut. Here's a chamber musician on this stage. On this very stage. Yeah. The ninety second street, y and it got a good review in the New York Times. I just went back and found from twenty June June to January twenty nineteen Eighty-four. And it was great. And I really I was I was nineteen years old. I had just dropped out of college dropped out kicked out. Splitting hairs. And I went on the road as a classical musician playing the French horn was my my dream. I did it that was the beginning of a twelve year career as a French horn player in New York store right here on the stage. What a thrill it is back with my friend, Simon cynic from my friends in New York on this very stage doing something that I love even more which talking about ideas with you. My first time on the stage was last year with you. How about that? Is that true? Well, the last time we were here is that was my that is true. If you have any questions raise your hand shout out. Yes. In the back. Thank you. Your. And. Just say. Four. After. Said. How? Eaters using double Ursus. It was really what's the question. So. That you're that. But is being. One strategies. Strategy. What would you like Arthur to comment on? Okay. So that's appreciate it a lot. And thank you, by the way, over the course of your work and think tanks and in media to try to bring people together people. There was progress, by the way, there is progress why because when society is not made up of groups talking to each other societies made up of individuals loving each other. That's the strength of a society, and what can happen would each one of us like you need to hold your views. Anybody who says we need more agreement in America? Instead of three times, I think that's wrong, but we can love each other in spite of that. And we can create a movement that we were starting the ninety second street y in March of twenty nine hundred if we can start to make love cool across disagreement that's really super dangerous for the outrage industrial complex, and it's really good for dirty word. Well, it's flexibility is what we do. I mean, anybody who has. Gotten married and stayed married understands that that it's a it's a it's a competition of ideas. The thing that you said that I think is is very interesting, particularly just think to me is you talk about that these highest levels, these Republicans and Democrats are coming together at CF are. And and yet it didn't matter because at some district when it got out to the to the elected member sort of fell apart. And I think that's exactly what they're saying. Which is somebody who's profiting from the contempt and in this case, it's it didn't matter the level disagreement. Once it got out to to somebody who's running for office. The contempt was to their benefit to throw meat into the into the audience because it profited my election rather than it was the right thing to do. I agree with you entirely. And I think that's one of the challenges. Yes. In the middle. Thank you. My is. Just on the other side. Yeah. Why not? Four hours. So. House. Sean, Hannity, you know. It's all about money. Sure. And the president supposedly brand. Do anything about that? Again. Maybe that's not true. But. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty shit that a lot, and you know. This is a real weakness for me. This is a real problem that I have because I'm don't have contempt have more love, and I've recognized. I've I've I've pointed out tonight, and I pointed on this book, and I've tried to point out with the witness that I'm trying to make for the rest of my life. I hope that we have to fight against this tendency to profit from setting person against person, but that shouldn't result in me, actually, having contempt for those people either because you love everybody or you don't that's binary, by the way, you stop talking to certain people these review one in six Americans has stopped talking to a family member or a close friend because of the twenty sixteen election that is a happiness crisis. That is a love crisis. That can't stand sad. One in six America higher than one in six almost one in five has stopped talking to a family member or close friend that is that's crazy that we're not as happy as we should be. We don't have as much love in our lives. Love is. A nuclear fuel of happiness if it's nuts that we actually will treat each other with contempt to get into the situation. So you know, what I'm working on this? I am working on not having contempt for the outrage industrial complex. But I think part of it part of it is also begrudgingly given credit credit is due. I think one of the things that hurt conservatives during the time of Obama was everything he did was wrong. Everything he did was wrong. One of the things that's hurting. Liberals, the time Trump is everything he does is wrong. Everything he does is wrong. And if you can give credit where credit is due where some of the things are actually correct the manner in which he goes about it might be wrong. But the underlying thinkings actually, correct. Or some of the things are actually good as a couple pieces of things that have actually passed that have actually if we can give credit where credit is due. It actually makes our disagreement stronger it's shock on a little bit that I it takes practice. It really does. But it, but but but. But it's true. But it's true. We're supposed to be the ones building bridges. Let's go over here. Yeah. Go ahead, ma'am. Saying I think it's more Austin's. See applying it in my jail. What happens when people told plant? Yeah. So so you can't guarantee that they're gonna play the great question. Thank you very much beautiful question. You can't guarantee it you can't guarantee by the way that even the person you're talking to at the bottom is going to play with you. But you know, what I can guarantee you that you're gonna change one heart. That's yours. This crazy experience when I just yeah. No, it's it's a beautiful thing, actually, a Catholic. But in every time, I spend time with the Dalai Lama. I've become a better Catholic. So I was the first time. The Dalai Lama. He gives advice how many people can say. So the Dalai Lama gave me this advice. Yeah. It's me shopping Harrison. I yeah. I didn't know Schopenhauer turns out in eighteen sixty. Ooh, I asked when he said when he said answer contempt warm heartedness next question was how I'm not strong enough. And he said remember a time when you did that by accident. Remember, how it set your heart on fire and recreate that feeling is a very robust, psychological technique of of remembering a feeling and having illicit the action because action follows attitude attitude falls action, and you got that. So so I remember a time years ago when accident did it I was still teaching at Syracuse. And I was just as I was beavering away Sewri obscurity with total happiness because it's the best live being active the best, and I had really good graduate students, and I wrote lots of books and nobody ever read the Riveria boring. And and I wrote this book about charity about charitable giving who gives conservatives or liberals religious, people are secular people poor people rich people and all the things that people think turns out a wrong, and it hit the news cycle is very boring. Book, but hit the news cycle and just the right way. And it started selling hundreds of copies of days. The weirdest feeling because your your life changes overnight and lots of presents on TV. And I was not ready for that. But the weirdest part was I started getting E mail from people had never met by the hundreds. My Email is very easy to get on the university website. I love your book. I read every word or a hated it. And here's why and I got this Email from guy. This is what I remembered Dalai Lama elicited this three except of the book came out to get an Email from guy in Texas said your professor Brooks, you are a fraud, which is bad way to start Email, but I kept reading and I noticed that this Email was going to be five thousand words long. It was gonna be twenty minutes to read it. But what I was reading. I noticed that. This guy was refuting every fact in my book, saying the data or wrong here. Your calculations are wrong here. Your interpretation Ron here. Like, the Collins table three point one or reversed you moron stuff like that. It was amazing. He read everywhere. And that's what I was saying to myself thinking haunch, so my emotions that's wonderful. And I said p right by buck. So and I was filled with gratitude I decided I decided to tell them just for sheer serendipity right in Jerusalem. So I know you hate them my book, and you think a stooge, but you read every word it took me two years to write that book, and my put my whole heart into it. I'm so grateful to you. Thank you send. And then I went back to work and fifteen minutes later, his response pops back up dating, and I'm like, oh, boy, he's going to buy those very apprehensive. He's gonna be really mad now. I thought an open it up, and he says professor Brooks next time here in Dallas. If you wanna get some dinner, give me a call. Do you know what your touch on? And this is what extending by the way, I didn't get dinner with him. Because right now, I'd be probably chained to a pipe in his basement. Or maybe he would just buy you dinner. I'm not willing to take that risk. My point the thing that the thing that I think what that highlights and the reason to extend love is everyone wants to feel heard which is different than listening to people right people want to feel heard. We don't want to have our words parroted back to us. And I think this is this is what makes people angry. There's a a documentary on Netflix. Right. Not wish. I could remember the name of it of of this wonderful. She's a an English Muslim woman who was attacked by white supremacists on Twitter viciously. And so she makes the decision instead of reacting with anger, and contempt to try and understand where they're coming from. And you can go watch it. It's amazing. And she goes and spends times spends time with white supremacists in the United States, and she was actually in Charlottesville wasn't marching with them. But she was walking with them when the violence exploded in Charlottesville, and what she does she doesn't. She doesn't tell them if they're stupid. She doesn't tell them that they're ignorant. She doesn't tell them that they're racist. She tells them how she feels how how their words necessarily make her feel and she listens to them. And she makes them feel hurt. And she asks them good questions, and you. Watch you watch. And what you start to see these diehard white supremacists. Now confused because she's supposed to be evil an anti-american and anti everything and for the first time in their lives. They actually feel heard and some of them drop out of the organization because they reconcile what their beliefs are with how they feel towards what they consider their friend who they consider their friend. And it basically is everything that Arthur is talking about what he's written about. You can see it happen live, which is when we extend love and truly try to understand what is underneath someone not to see them as contemptible. But to try and understand with love it forces us it forces those people to to question themselves because we yell and scream at them. They hunker down. If somebody calls unity it and says all your political views of the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You're not gonna question your own beliefs. You're going to hunker down. This is what when I say, we're partially to blame. So I think to do it in your. In your little America. I think if you again, you may not change that person's heart. She might not have changed. Correct. But you can change your heart wrecked. And you'll be happier. And you'll be more persuasive, and you'll be more successful. And you deserve that. Let's go to the back. That saying goes. And I'm so sure. Wall. Just sort of adds on owed. Just sort of. Yeah. No. This gets back to the question that we have before you know, if you're treating somebody with contempt. You're you're part of the problem on the other hand, if your muting somebody who you don't know, but who's trying to fire you up and getting rich as a result of it. One of the things I talked about being manipulated. Yeah. The the point is in there are people, you know, and people you don't who are manipulating you. That's just a fact in America today. There are two different ways to deal with this for those you don't know it's simply the mute button or not reading the call him for the people. You do know if standing up for the people with whom you disagree or showing love to the person with whom you disagree. That's really what it is. In other words, if you're treated with contempt that's the moment because somebody who's in that seven percent who treats you with contempt who's trying to pull us apart. Whether it's the habit because they don't want to like us or whether they really do profit from it. There's never any reason for you to answer with that contempt zero percent reason for you to do it. So the only time talking about standing up to those were bullying, you and terrorize. You is when you have a one sided relationship their outbound and your inbound to stop making it inbound. Thank you for that clarification is really important. What do you think Simon anywhere you want? Okay. I want I want. I'm gonna woman. I mean, that's not a bad. Yes. Here's back. L feel the questions from now on. And this is by the way, the live taping of the Arthur Brooke show my podcast box. That's not going in. Yeah. Sexual violence. I'm visiting this is to your the little bits. Tweet teasing. Bryant's of more moral. We have to sew up of politics. Job because I wasn't. Conservative people. And he needs. Alone. Respect. Machines things right. I'm saying we even rights lawyer. Comes seems to be. Which? Multiple. Very gently practice. I appreciate this. Plummeted. But when it comes you ever going to age. Already for even on days and believe. I'm does this is somewhere where we're not being able to. Night. Some. Yup. This is. Right. Me say. To begin with. Thank you for your work, by the way. Thank you for making the world better. Thank you for coming to the United States, and please move here. So it's really hard when you're talking about Xs -sential issues like this to do what I'm about to say. So I'm gonna give you an aspirational goal. See when you're talking about political taxes, for example, and typical right left stuff that doesn't seem existential. Like this is easier. The advice, I'm giving you. But I'm gonna give you a hard advice. Now, I'm going to offer this to you in a spirit of love the person, you're talking to who doesn't share your values is not the same as those values. They hold those values. It's okay. If you feel contempt for their values, and you don't have to go out on a date or marry that person. But it's not okay to treat that person or even think about that person with contempt because it's a person, it's a human. It's another soul. And no other soul is worthy of contempt. Even if their ideas, are here's the I asked you to expand the space between stimulus from. I want you to expand the space between ideas and people, right? You can hate somebody's views if you want you can think they're noxious you can fight against them. That's the American way. And maybe they'll the Irish way too. But you can't hate another person. And what we're trying what we being fed constantly diet that somebody's ideas are the person that they're that. They're smashed together. This is what this is what this is what Simon was talking about where we mix up. Why? And what right. This is our moral goal is to remember that every human and every soul is just as valid as each one of us notwithstanding. The fact that we can't stand what we think is a new book that comes out and says, I love you. But I hate your politics about couples that actually do get married, but candies can't stand each other politics. But you can do that with somebody with whom he wouldn't even go out on a date in the first place that is my aspirational goal for my life. And I offer it with love to you. We hear it in the media you hear it with politicians. With the pundits where they say, you know, he's a liar versus he lied. There's a big difference. One is a criticism of the action. In the words spoken. The other one is criticism of the human being, and we should all watch ourselves accusing another person of being a liar versus saying he told a lie. Because we don't know most of us who have kids we've learned you never say, you know, you're a terrible student. You say you've got an F on your quiz. You don't say you're a terrible student precisely because we're trying to do that. We'll come down front in the Mogo in the back of their. So do you believe say? To play a role. The two and. People. I mean, I I have an opinion. I would love to hear it. Far out, man. I have an opinion too. And it's an interesting question, by the way, I'm not making light of it. Yeah. Sure. But that doesn't but it doesn't last. You know? So I would like a solution that is more infinite than the time that you're tripping. The, but the point is it ends the point is you do something to stimulate an experience. Even if that experience is love, and it may linger and it may linger for awhile, and then it'll stop and then you'll do it again. And it's this is the cycle that is the cycle of addiction. And though the impact and effect may be very affirmative. Is it you or is it the impact of the psychedelic? So sure it's not a judgment of the psychedelic whatsoever. Do it have fun love all the people around you. But I would say concurrently. Learn the skills of love that don't require the psychedelic. Because I need you in to be able to call upon it when you have no access to the psychedelic. There's a lot of emerging research that you're calling upon I can tell you're thinking about it. You're reading about it that you're really because because the emerging body of research suggests that their particular properties that are used for people who've experimented with Wasco in Peru, for example, or Vesco and under the watch of a physician or shaming. And it suggests that there's a way that you can you can trip some wires that can change some. We don't know. It's very early days of this research very early days. This possibly therapeutic uses of hallucinogens for anxiety and depression, we don't know a guy named Joe Greene who does work on this. He's in California, and he's doing early stage research on this. And so we don't know where it's going to go. I don't take drugs because I'm afraid I'm afraid, and I'm afraid of what it will do to my mental health because it's too early in the research. I also know, however, the based on this research that. Tation can get you to the same place. You can get it takes longer safer. And so one of the things that I recommend to all of us that you experiment with with discernment. What is the Cernan? It's it's sitting peacefully and looking for your own desire to Cernan is not what should I do? The sermon is what do I want? Most people. See this is science question. What's your why, you know, most people going through life with what's my what what's my what what do I do for a living? What am I going to do what am have for breakfast? How am I going to get to work? Right. They don't ask. What's my y? Which is a fundamental question of desire and desires about discernment discernment requires peace and peace requires calming your monkey mind, and maybe you can do that with L estate. Maybe you can do that with mescaline peyote in Moscow and fill in the blanks. But I know you can do that with meditation. I know that you can do that by bringing yourself piece. We'll go this way. And then we'll come back to you. Yes. Sure. You can change their mind. He shouldn't think this briny, but the same time our culture out is it. How changed I jerk any? Local to cheat. I mean, you'll rather I go back to the answer that we gave some women's ago, which is it starts with little America. You know, we cannot control the things we cannot control. And we keep talking about the things as if we can control them or that they need to change. And then we go about our day. And there's a there's something called the law of diffusion of innovations which basically all populations, regardless of their standard, regardless of their size, sift across the standard deviation the bell curve, right? If you have high performers, you have low performance, for example. And with the law division tells us guy by the name of Emmett Rogers who wrote about theorize about this in the nineteen sixties holds holds true that if you want to affect the bell, if you wanna fight the majority if you want to see an idea spread or see systemic change. You don't actually aim at the bell. You aim at the early adopters the early adopters more comfortable with risk. They're they're willing to sacrifice time energy or money to be a part of something that advances something. The majority is more cynical. What's in it? For me, what price quality service features. And what what he taught us is that the majority doesn't try something because they wanna see they want somebody else to try I and so you need fifteen to eighteen percent market penetration, which is called the tipping point. It's a sociological phenomenon that when you reach this level, it just goes ideas or anything else. Right. And so the problem is is we talk about how do we change the system? But we're talking about is the bell. We're talking about the majority, and we're talking about convincing people who have a very low risk tolerance to change the way. They see the world. The reality is there's about ten percent of us. That are practicing this really hard and Geoffrey Moore wrote many years ago crossing the chasm we have to go from the ten percent of eighteen fifteen to eighteen percent. In other words, we have to practice those values. And if you get enough of us to practice, those values those values become American values, and the problem is we're not practicing those. News, the value in this case of being willing to change your mind when the preponderance of I'm willing to change your mind on the against the prominence of evidence. The willingness to listen to a an opinion that you have visceral negative reaction to the the the willingness to be empathetic the willingness to be that wonderful young Muslim woman to go and spend time out of curiosity, and the empathy with those white supremacists before we label them evil, and what you're saying here is that to do that when you're early adopters subversive subversion of the conventions the culture, right? That's what that's what signs telling you. There's a whole chapter on this about this tipping point of the eighteen percent. And here's also what by the way, we got the way we are here because it went the tipping tipping point happened in the wrong. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right. So here's the exciting part. If you're an entrepreneur, see real entrepreneurs are not this is what it's like in real life. When we say real real entrepreneurs swimmer on the phone. So real entrepreneurs don't starting companies. That's fine. You know, getting venture capital. That's real entrepreneurs do things like fall in love. Real entrepreneurs do things like change their mind why because those are subversive counter cultural acts that require putting capital at risk when you change your mind in American society today, it shows you're weak, and your wishy washy, and you don't believe anything really really strongly. Right. That is putting your capital at risk. But you know, what it's super satisfying because when you practice a little bit you start doing it a lot. I read a question that it kind of blew my mind a little bit because you help I'm doing this wrong, man. I'm on stage at the ninety second street, y and I- repudiated. The way I was talking tiny little bit because you were right. And I wasn't right in the way. I was thinking about it. You don't know this? You can do this. You could do this tomorrow. Sorry, simon. Go ahead. You you can I thought I know I know. I want you to put a point because I want to hear it. So. It's exactly like. Tomorrow. Somebody is going to say something you're gonna go good point. They're going to go a good point because nobody ever hears that and you'll be subversive element. And it's going to be just gonna love it's going to set your heart on fire. And then somebody else is gonna do it say. So in this in this new research that have been doing about finding your water. Yeah. Thanks. Did you finish yours have some left? Oh, sorry. The. Have a cold now. I'm kidding. The. The research that I've been doing about finite and infinite thinking. Kidding? I'm kidding. I don't have a call. I do. The research. We're doing is finite thinkers, which are which played a win all the time. They play the game only conceiving of winning and make all decisions with the goal of winning. Liked to control all the variables. Because surprises are scary because the prizes can subvert winning. Right. So we don't surprise if we want to control the variables the infinite thinker. The infinite minded sinker love surprises and sees opportunity in surprise and sees opportunity to grow into learn. And what we're proposing. What you're proposing is is to be open to surprise as opposed to wanting to control, and we want to control the other side, we want to control the other group who disagree with us. So that they will see the way we see it. So that we can build the world that we want and live in the country and get the politicians that we prefer and rather than being open to surprise and growth and extremely non entrepreneurial way to laugh. You know, the weirdest thing is these data that I see coming up all over the place and surveys that show that people in their twenties are much less entrepreneurial than we give them credit for and much less entrepreneurial than past generations. And the reason is because they're afraid it's because of fear fear is up part of the reason is because people my age have raised their kids to be to take less risk and to have more safety. It's funny. My buddy over intervene. You've totally. And so my buddy Jonathan height teaches at New York university's is social psychologist stern school business. And he does this thing gets out in front of audience says okay, everybody forty thinking your head count to three call out. How old you were the first time that you went out of the house by yourself on an errand you walk into school or one of the store for your mom or something like that one two three. Six seven. Everyone thirty how old were you under twenty five better one two three. Twelve thirteen my friends that is a big America's getting safer when I was walking around Seattle. And as I mentioned before in my neighborhood, literally Ted Bundy was running amok in my neighborhood. Right. And I had a paper route at four thirty in the morning. And she loved to strike, I know so so we were talking about around the dinner table my dad when a PHD in statistics. And he said, you know, the odds are very low that you're in his. You can keep it around. Right. I was in fifth grade, my friends, I mean, it was just, you know, the famous story of Richard Branson, right? So Richard Branson, one of the world's most successful entrepreneurs his mother when he was I think eight years old. They were I think three miles from home. They would driving home and she put him out of the car and make your way home and like five hours later, he finally came home. And she says I knew you take this long because you stop to smell stop to smell everything look at everything. But it was hours that it took this little kid to make his way home. But the kid learn not to be afraid that's not proposing. Let your eight year old you get to do this. I'm simply saying we overcome stop soup. It's an extreme example. It isn't extreme example behind of we are technically done, which means if you have babysitters, and you need to go by all means. But I don't know there's we're allowed to keep going. I don't know. Let's keep going if you want. Is. Oh, right. We also have a book signing. Yeah. So we either sacrifice the book signing that we come on man, or you just all we just did the book signing late. Okay. Let's do ten more minutes, and then we'll do anymore because there's a lot of hands up. This is the best. Yeah. Let's go to the back over there. We haven't had one from the back of their. Yes. It's daylight saving. I hear you. Yeah. Speaking of legislation policies we disagree with. Well. No, no. By the way, so bad member. When we're supposed to talk this morning on the phone. Yeah. We missed it. How come because? 'cause I called you at ten instead of nine. Daylight savings. It's funny. Libertarian. Concerned. Grounded by them. Question. There's a lot of here. And specifically like what? Because I. Right. Just right. Nine out of discussion around right? How try to come that. Yeah. Sphere. It's it's like feeling like, you can't sure you're not. Truly for sure and you feel fear too. Because you being ganged up on totally. Yeah. As a beautiful question. Fears the ultimate negative emotion. Fear is the opposite of love. People think that hatred is the opposite of love not fear is the opposite of love hatred comes from fear. So if you wanna wipe out fear, you show love, even if you don't feel it and you'll start to feel love and you'll stop feeling fear. That's the secret too. By the way, there's a ton of social psychological and neurological research that backs this up and every major religion. But does them Christianity Islam. They all talked about fear is the ultimate negative emotion. Okay. So how do you do it? You see these interactions as profound opportunities for unit show love because your heart is overflowing with love, and you wanna go find these people disagree with you. Because when people treated with contempt trying to elicit fear, and you answer with warm heartedness and love you've changed your own heart. You've made yourself more effective. You made yourself happier. And you might just change their hearts too. So here's the thing. I want you to think about this. There's a metaphor that use in the book because they had a big impact on me. There's this. I was in this retreat center. And it was it was a Christian retreat center when my wife, and I we were doing, you know, training couples that were engaged to get married, and we were talking about what it's like to be married for twenty five or thirty years these young couples. But that's not the point what I noticed. I was going out. There's a sign over the door. Not when you come in. When you're going out for the people who are in the Christian retreat center before they go into the parking lot. You know, I said you are now entering mission territory myself. That's not just a religious message. See here's the deal every single one of you has fear in your hearts, but you want to dominate that fear with love if you want a better life, and you want to be more persuasive. So what I want you to do. What's your name? But I want you to do as I want you to want you to imagine a sign over the door of this auditorium before you go out that says you are now entering mission territory, and if you do that, and you keep that in your heart fear's got no chance. There's a technique for effective competition. I learned a long time ago the answer and a half three quarters of an answer is better than an answer and a half. I'm about to disobey that advice. There's a. There's a technique for effective confrontation. That is really fantastic perhaps you can use with them, right? Requires three things it does not matter the order, but you need to have all three we've game to that with one and two, and it doesn't work. You have to be able to talk to the person you're going to have to say exactly how you feel. You have to do better than happy sad angry, right? The specific action that they took that made you feel that way and the potential impact you have to do all three the order doesn't matter. So for example, you would say. When you got up and walked, and it has to be specific. You you always do this. Right. You're always late to meet it. It has to be specific. Specifically, how you feel Pacific actually took to make you feel that way and the potential impact. So you would say something to the effect of Wayne you got up and walked out of the room the Thursday night. You made me feel completely humiliated, and I fear that if I made to feel like that again, I won't I won't trust. You. I feel the love that. I have for you. We'll be shaking, and then you shut up. And then it doesn't matter if they get defensive. Well, you said this, and I was just being emotional. It's I'm sure I'm sorry. But you you you say I hear you. And then you repeat the whole statement again. And what it does it's designed to make people take accountability for their actions. And it's unbelievably effective. By the way, also works really really well for compliments, you do all three when you stayed and listened to me, you made me feel so hurt and so loved I know that if I made to feel like that again it'll make trust build for me. Like, you have no idea it works beautifully. But try that the order doesn't matter but have all three things. Let's come over here. Yes. David so much. Nineteen. More. Thank you. Thank you. These questions. What? Do you cheat her culture? And more on individual and group playing that gap to ten percent of this to that to getting. Are there? Points. Social action. Vigil due to start actually team responsibility extra. So the tricky thing in America that we do and we're so entrepeneurship, right? Which is we like to back plan everything. Right. We like to come up when with the result we want and then what's the back plan that I need to do and that works a little bit. But this is more what I'm asking recommending is more like a lifestyle, right? It's like somebody who says I want to get into shape. So you know, what that looks like he might have a weight goal or some sort of fitness goal and you'll start eating differently. And you'll you'll go to the gym you won't see anything. But you'll try again, and again, and you know, that it's a process, you know, that you know, that it's slow and it's not visible, right? But you there are certain metrics that you can measure the progress you can look in the mirror, which is sort of subjective. You can look at a scale, right? And the problem is when you hit your goal, you don't get to stop working out. You have to do it for the rest of your life. So what we're talking about though, there are goals that we could set what we're asking people to adopt an entirely different lifestyle a lifestyle in which when you start to feel yourself, seething and you want to react verbally or Twitter. Any other way, you you take that space and find the calm that when you want to label someone as evil or stupid or ignorant or a liar. We have learned the lifestyle of remembering that, it's an opinion or a point of view. And it's not who they are. It's just something they said, maybe they even said it to get a rise out of maybe they don't actually understand what they said they heard it. We don't know. And so what we're advocating is change of lifestyle that unfortunately, like exercise, some people will be quicker and some people will be slower and like. Secession of smoking. And like the fact that we're trying to eat healthy in time. It will become something American. There was a group of people said the smoking thing is bad for us. I'm not sure exactly when or how. But we we kind of the smoking numbers declined precipitously in this country, and that when they started passing legislation that you can't smoke in pub- in bars, which are private entities. Nobody was really up in arms. We're like. Okay. Right. And now we're doing with straws and plastic bags, and we're kind of okay with it. Right. In other words, it's become normalized, but it wasn't normalized and it wasn't normal. And we people aren't making economic arguments. Why we need to keep plastic bags? Yeah. And wouldn't let me put a put a quick point on that to violating the one and half answer rule. Neither of because because I've been struggling with this a lot what you're talking about. You know, I care about this a lot. I want to do what I can I have views, and I believe in certain public policy ideas, and I liked debate in the whole thing. But what I really care about is lifting people up and bring them together. And I've been thinking what can I do at scale? What can I do this moonshot because that's what you're asking? What can we do? This a societal thing as opposed to Diana one on one deal. And I've been struggling with this and struggling with us. And you know what I decided to do. I don't have to solve this. I just have to commit myself to doing this for the rest of my life because it makes my life better. And then I'm gonna see what the entrepeneurship venture actually is. So I quit my job. And I'm dedicating myself to this cause and I don't know where it's gonna take me. I don't know what this book is going to do. I don't know what my podcast is going to do my call them. I don't know. But I'm dedicating my work to this. And I'm gonna see where it's supposed to go because you know, what that's actually how all entrepreneurs endeavors work. I mean, we always talk about the business plan that says, and they were going to get to IPO in three years or something like that. That's almost never how they work in only. One third of entrepreneurial endeavors is there any recognizable business plan. So don't have a business plan have a lifestyle of love. That's truly entrepreneurial and daring and risky. And you're gonna start creating a movement and people are going to be attracted to you. And it's going to be magnetic, and we're gonna do together and pray for me. We're going to go one two three, and then we'll figure out some of the others go. Yup. In the back. Action. Oxygen. People. Two. It's a good one. I'm an academic. So this is really hitting home in and what am I going after? I'd leave the think tank that I'm running right now. I'm going to go teach at Harvard. Something about this a lot. And I think that there occasions in which it's appropriate to say that these ideas are beyond the pale. But we're way on the wrong side of that. And we should be a lot more accepting of different ideas than we are today. One on campuses today. We're trying to de platform people that it's wrong. It's like huge mistake. Because people can't be exposed of the competition of ideas. I think that a lot of ideas are wrong that I want to hear them. And I think students are going to think that a lot of ideas are wrong, but they should hear them because they're just they're going to be weak. They're going to be flaccid minds. They actually don't get that competition of ideas. So no doubt. There is a point at which the answer is. Yes. But I think that we're really far away from it. And we're making a mistake right now in America drastically direction like all of you to do is joined me in being more more in the in the in the business of free speech and more accepting of hearing things that we don't like because otherwise we become fearful, and we become resistant to the kind of. That requires to hear things we don't like. You grew that I do. I think there's a difference between allowing speech and lifting speech up. We cannot suppress speech. We find apart that speech is not allowed to incite violence. That's against the law. There are standards, and those standards have been provided. We don't have to figure out what those standards are. But we have to allow speech, no matter. How contemptible we find it to exist? But we don't have to put it on national television. Like we have to allow for it. But we don't have to lift it up, and we don't have to give equal billing, but we do have to allow for it. So I don't think it's a chicken egg question. I don't think one has to come with the other. If you want to be a free speech warrior, by the way, the most important way to do it. It's a fight for free speech with people on your own side as to elicit a greater acceptance of free speech with people who agree with you who are trying to shut it down. That means conservatives need to start listening more free speech that speech this not conservative and liberals vice versa. And we all know the institutions for these are the greatest problems on both sides. Yeah. Where do we go next? We should we should do one more. And then we should we should go out in the lobby and meet you in person. Yeah. Whoever to remember who was to. Oh, you you you in the front your number two. Go and then. Sorry. Thank you. So I really is that you present. I think that. Acidly invention a story Tennessee rating on some things, but you connect with that. And you mentioned that wanted six people has popped off the phrase is out of mentions. How you're if you're beating this just everyday people aren't five. On what are something that we can seek out actions. Andrew will ales? They set ourselves up more amenable to have. Stieg work sessile for love art of things you see in American sign that we should be last to hate in that makes his arm stations. Great. But you gotta just have people in the room beginning if you don't have that next versus. I don't know how but it seems like free free whilst you defined spiracy theories and still love. Yeah. How do we do it? How do we tell? What do they're gonna make amenable to what's the book about bowling with bowling alone. Bob, Putnam book, bowling alone, bowling alone, by Bob Putnam is a professor at the Kennedy School at Harvard, and he talks about building civil society doing together doing things together. But the key point is going where you're not invited and saying what they don't expect and listening with love expanding the range of people that you talked to every pressure in America is the silo. Your news feeds to close down your friend groups to go to university where people are like you to go to a house of worship where people are like you. It's very easy to do. That is getting e. Yeah, it's just more comfortable just easier would between social media and the mobility of Americans in the way that were self sorting with respect to neighborhoods. It's easier to don't do it. Go be a personal entrepreneur. Go where people disagree with you where you're not necessarily even invited and say what they don't expect an listen with love and that's the goal, and if you can do that. And by the way is so interesting I've been I'm taking my own advice, and my life is getting richer by the day. And you know, where it is. Because each one of you knows how to expand the fear of ideological view points. Again, you might you might change your mind certain things, you might not. But it doesn't matter because your heart will if you do right. Totally on purpose and go with someone you'd have to go, and you can go someone. But but also, I think social social things we were less social if you go by when I play video games as a kid. We all showed up in the same house and played video games together. And now if you go by an XBox or PlayStation or something it comes with one controller, the doesn't even want you to play with a friend. And and I I have an XBox. And I was looking to play with a friend. And I was I went to buy games that I could play with somebody, and I have a nephew and he likes video games. And and they don't even they don't even sell them. You can up. It was bought a second controlling, and I struggle to find a video game they will allow me to play with a split screen with somebody in the same room. And this is a problem video games. But why can't we make them that we can play with people in the same room? When we go for dinner. I mean, I'm I'm pretty staunch about this put the phones away when you're with somebody at a dinner table. He put the phones away when you're in a meeting. I don't mean just. In your pocket. I mean, turn it off put an airplane mode. Leave it in the car. Don't need it at dinner. And I think we we are less, social and that breeds loneliness, and and then the echo chambers and all the rest of it, just just manifests and grows. Totally. Get out of your comfort zone with someone be alive. Be there. Go take you present. Let's say one more question. I think we're in the front row here. So. Yeah. If this. More on really be shame. Thanks. Is there is this very large motorized American. Statement who are not having their voice very because they don't go right speaks audience for it and say what to those who are in the sense that you are also complexity of national conversation. How do we then? How do we then? You know, it's true. And but thank you for the work more in common. I cited I started a lot in my book, and I signed it and every talk is super important what you guys are doing. I mean, you you might actually be the research organization that starts the new movement. And I appreciate it a lot. So a lot of people they feel devalued and they feel silent. And that by there's nothing new about that pre population groups at the margin of society have always been silenced and felt silenced. And the problem with being silent is that you don't sense of your own dignity, and we don't have a sense of your dignity. You're gonna fight back. If you want to know how populism works, particularly in the wake of a financial crisis where people felt economically and socially silenced. You're gonna see the bitterness that comes up the disdain and the and then here to the ideas of politicians were little more than walking middle fingers to the other side. It's unhelpful. Right. But that you get it you get it because they've been silent. So it's a. An answer to an existential threat to democracy, and civilized society that we don't listen to people that we don't give people a voice. So to me, it's a question of how do we how do people get voice when they don't have one on the contrary every single one of you in this room has power. You have disproportionate power and privilege. You're able to pay to come to see to aging hipsters. Give a lecture at the ninety second street, y sorry, you're not a hipster. And I'm not aging. So the. Your power. And that means you have this big opportunity to give somebody voice. It's amazing giving electrical buncha evangelical Christian kids big group. And I asked them we don't because the key thing to to dignity is being needed that actually enough feeling being needed. That's what gives you dignity, and when nobody needs what you think nobody needs economically. Nobody needs you socially. And nobody needs your opinion, you won't sense of dignity, and you will strike back. Okay. So I was asking this group of cushion kids think about a group that you that need something from you that you really don't need. Okay. Who is there is in New York City. They said homeless people homeless people that's completely wrong. Because if you're evangelical Christians, and you see a homeless person on the street, you need that person's prayers to keep you out of hell, that's Christian theology. You need something from every single person when you recognize your need of something from somebody at the periphery of our society to quote pope Francis. You will give personal voice and each one of us the power to do that starting maybe right outside the ninety second street, y when you live tonight. I had an answer when I was listening to you. I decided to change it. Because you use the word existential threats and that a little flag went up for me. And one of the things that we were lucky we were lucky after World War Two during World War Two. We face an existential threat, right, which is what brought and together Stalin and the west, right? So shared assured threat, and then after the second World War, we saw the rise of the Soviet Union. And there was a competing ideologies to competing. Ideologies looking for customers and two largest economies in the world, two largest militaries in the world and these competing ideologies and. America's still had all the infighting and the intelligence services still fought with each other and the politicians still fought with each other. But when push came to Chauve, we could come together with competing politics because the existential threat was shared, and when the when the Berlin Wall came down we lost the perception of the existential threat of the external existential threat, and when we lost a reason to come together and come in 'cause we started to perceive each other as the enemies, by the way, this is how all empires full. Room flat in Carthage and then Rome ripped itself treads. And I for one thing that perhaps one of the most one of the best things that can happen to America is the rise of China the rewrite of Russia. Because I think it will force us to recognize that there are things way more threatening to us then each other. And by the way, those threats whether it's economic nuclear or or ideological used to be conveniently located in a single adversary called the Soviet Union. And now those threats are distributed. So we don't really fear nuclear war with China. But they've definitely challenge. Our and they're going to just get ready for it. The United States has been the number one economy in the world since the Foale since since the end of World War Two it's five years away. We're going to be number two. Just just get ready for it. Because it's happening. If you go look at the numbers the speed at which the Chinese economy is growing on believable. We have a four year plan thousand year plan, right? We don't the nuclear threat comes from another place that may not challenge us, economically righty logically. And the ideological threat. Now comes from the place. In other words, are Cold War two point? Oh as a distributed threat, and we haven't wised up to that yet that we cannot compete in the world today with outdated thinking from the Cold War, which is kind of what we're trying to do. We have a million. We did we only joined the world order after World War Two we were isolated as prior. So everything we know about competing on a world stage about being a superpower comes from one experience as focus group of one. Right. So I think that. And then what I said when I said, existential, what's better. No. I think you're right. I think that is the right term. And the problem is we perceive each other as the exit threat, we have no perception of an external existential threat, and the more that we perceive each other as the existential threat, we become our weaknesses become exploit -able to everyone who would do harm outside unity is what we need to provide for the United States for our society for our community for each other the production that we need to maintain the way of life of freedom opportunity enterprise, unity, solidarity and brotherhood, the things that we actually need the most I I'm fund of saying closed behind closed doors. It's fun to saying behind closed doors to folks in government, and sometimes the military that Osama bin Laden one we killed him. So what he made our entire country racist. You know, what you have to wait in long TSA line? You mean something a lot worse do that. No, no. And is forcing us to spend unbelievable amounts of money against a disproportionately small threat, but we have to because you have to not that's the point. And the way that you the way that you win and infinite game, but you exhaust your enemy of willin resources. We're spending tons of money. And we hate any other ready to others throats. And if we can't fix it ourselves, we'll be forced to fix it. If we face another existential. Superpower threat from outside. I think it's a sad. I don't like the fact that I have this opinion. Alas my last thought maybe Simon's to you. If you don't like that threat, and you want to turn it into an opportunity you need to love each other. And you need to love more people. Let's do that together. I love you. I love you too. And I love you. Thanks again to Simonsen it and the ninety second street y for facilitating conversation, I hope even joy this season. I love talking about love. And if you like the show, hey, if you love the show, please tell a friend about it a raid it and review it on apple podcasts or wherever you listening to this. Thanks for listening.

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