Tim Walker Talks Wonderful Things | Inside Fashion


The taking pitch Lee McQueen because I'm celebrating. I'm not taking a pitch of Tim Walkers impression impression of Lee McQueen throughout all the rooms and wonderful things what what you become really aware of is how transformative power of the imagination and said it's. It's not just you being inspired by the object. It's people who made the object. There's a definite melancholy. Toko Fay's inescapable click the Cama goes and then you like goes the beauty that's it it's done and then you have a photograph and that's a to d representation of something that was sublime hi this is Imran Ahmed founder and CEO of the business of fashion and welcome to the podcast this week as London fashion week was taking place fashion. Insiders were already buzzing about a new exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum in honor of the photographer Tim Walker occur the exhibition features more than one hundred and fifteen new works inspired by the Vienna's own collection in an exhibition designed by Shona Heath now now our very own tim blanks had the opportunity to sit down with Tim Walker just before the exhibition opened and he came back blown away so here's Tim blanks thanks and Tim Walker inside fashion about wonderful things at the Victoria and Albert Museum. I'm sitting here with Tim Walker on the occasion yeah of his show wonderful things Victorian album museum and I've just seen the show so it is such a pleasure to have a self paternity to talk about it with Tim him and I think everybody who comes to the show. It is a world of one day. It is full of wonderful. Things and I wanted to know why Tim Kohl his show wonderful. Things I think wonderful thing is is working project facilty as in you're encountering some different things and it was suggested journey is going to be cool to the an odyssey the journey didn't really know what we're going to quote it never really had added and then my producer. Jeff said do you know the the story of Tuten coming when they go into the teams in Tutankhamen and Howard Carter was asking heated helicopter go if how how Accounta- oven they went into the teams and they find any broke for it and then there was soy `lance and can you see can you see in oversee. He could see a time capsule of the worldly extraordinary. The vision that will he could say was wonderful things and that kind of in a way chimed with with E. C. When you come to the vein I think think I think it's funny. When you go into the exhibition the first thing you encounter is the the corridor of a retrospective that's by brightly lit room and it's and just to sort of a speedy boarding journey through my talk for the last two decades two decades and then you get to the end of it and it's called the chapel of needs which is all the new work. I've done we very recently and that's kind of where I am at the moment mint complete liberation of people without clothes on a very sensitive beatf away and then the maniacs fictional the then go on into is cool a wonderful things and that's dyslexia love letter to Savannah for myself. How would you if we start right at the beginning. which is long corridor with with the retrospective view of your work over the past few decades? How would you describe that work now. When you look at it what what's distinguishing cat distinguishing characteristics Sobat body of work of the first corridor yeah got it said like you don't realize his photographer that what you're doing so so one thing it's so so clear as to voice is such a one voice thing and then you look back at any. Oh God yeah. That's that's PAT said she's one very. I didn't realize I was just being Repetitive by taking the same ten pitches in a way this sort of like yeah absolute absolute fantasy and degree relented. Why relentless do feel feel it over overpowered? You think well. It's interesting you mention and because you have to books out is as a book for the exhibition wonderful things in another book shoot for the Moon which is absolutely big meanchey monograph and you make a very interesting point in that book that you you felt that the scale maybe the production the the the technicalities of those images set you will making you lost touch with the moment that that the magic of the moment of making an image that you have bogged down and putting beds and trees and in crystal ships in stately homes. I mean they are extraordinary images. I think I think that's really a a key thing. You've picked up on that. That is very much hard. Fail now felt like I was carrying very heavy bags but when I was younger as Tokyo had the energies energies do it takes enormous amount of physicality to make that type of image 'cause it some the very sort of complicated set like the beds in the trees what you just explained it very. It's a lot it's a lot and and you can see in your head and you you won't get that make the picture but by by meditating on that vision that you have in your head you often miss the the beauty of the spontaneous about the things flutter in front of you that way more sublime than you'll premeditated vision. I think what what what has always been awesome magical about that early work earlier work. Is that that sense that nothing was impossible you could you could defy gravity you get you could make a you could make a grey elephant blue. You could turn pussycats Persian pussycats into kaleidoscope callosum there was there was that kind of incredible energy. I mean when you when you look at surreal surrealism surreal losses savvy Lozada's. You feel the same sort of joy subversive in a way. I think it's it attend the my point of view. I think it was a a so playful. It was really playful and that play assistive. Let building a tree house or building putting on a stage production. It took a lot though takes a lot dirt another thing to realize realize that you have to just Yank put immense amount of energy into it which is something. I don't have any more. Did you feel something I don't not only we don't have that. I think that was what that whole period as a photographer when I was really exploring that fantasy that was a really exploded and by really engaging with the m the the pure pleasure of playing with fantasy and the impossible by then now realize that that you miss out on other things things may be by because you'll focus so much on making the impossible possible and happen and physical what with anomaly of extraordinarily talented collaborate is to make that happen as now to see a beauty in simplicity of at beat Sfu nude man man or woman or the simplicity of a girl in an incredibly beautiful dress against white background and I think any any complicated extra stuff fails like Hannah gauge did you did you. Did you feel actually that the that it was almost becoming cliche in a way that is a tim welcome by the graph you've had such a definite signature and I'm feeling now the playfulness it was sa- fantasy there was sort of a kind of dreaming as now there were there were different under current says darkness eroticism is a there's a power there is much more primal baps which is used used to be. I think the culture of taking pictures of people against the white background was was literally a response to going the other way to making very fantastical set sets in photographing people in sets. It was just a sort of a celebration shen over the person didn't want to I didn't want to disguise if you'll photographing someone you'll you're photographing. David Lynch and I grew up watching David Lynch's we all we all did sudden sitting in front of David Lynch. Why would you put David Diaper Lynch into very complicated set because then you kind of lease David Lynch and that was very interesting sitting with him because he was so into this simplicity of the portrait and we had a big discussion about his transcendental meditation action and the sort of the emptying of the fantasy in a way if meditation nations your emptying your head of you'll thoughts or your fantasies. That's the island love that may most recently we saw portraits of Margaret Atwood in the Sunday Times last weekend. She was ingesting began is kind of a little bit of I did photograph very simply you know when she first came in but she really quickly realizes that she's got a great love of fashion she she loves clubs and she really wanted to amplify persona for that photograph. Tov She wanted to become vicar than she is and in that way of is a shoot like that collaboration then a minute was totally more. It's more leaning towards directing herself and me mainly helping to achieve that that's what gives me most pleasure when you photograph when you meet someone like Margaret Atwood and she comes to the studio and I sit down on Abba conversation with put an. I try and fail her out and Phil what she wants to do. In than a she really wanted to play and she wanted to play dress up and she wants to celebrate the book she just written and she she'd even listing out the the colors and the graphics of the cover of the testaments and and how that can be translated fewer she will and then she went and looked to all the clothes in the dressing room and she she cherry picked a Black Cape in agreeing glove and then she was like I really would love a feather. Can we get a feather. We didn't have a feather so then the stylist Silas Harry had to dismantle hacked that had a long pheasant feather in it that became a quill and then she was like I I really think we need to get some eggs. You must have eggs in your fridge and we're not we don't have any eggs but we can get an egg so then some momentum golden eggs you completely. He choreographed photograph and that is a gift for me because I'm that photograph then becomes and Margaret Atwood is not my perception of Margaret Atwood. It's she's. She's chosen to that end. She was just so enjoyed enjoyed it and and yet she was really with it and she met she made it consult portrait away Selfie. I helped to make herself which is really a gift was thing you could do would be to put? Tim handmaid's tale. You know that'd be the worst thing you can do to sort of town into characters in Book and you prefer working with portrait's win. It set kind of into play. I mean what what what's your usual portrait shoot because as we've says as fling in them thirty a in the room downstairs if the a section the poach text ankle the handshake in I think it really really describes how I feel about making a traitor. Among is like the person Neil photographing is walking tool Jian as a pathway between yourself the camera and the person you want to take picture of them picture of and they won't towards you and as you get towards them hopefully you'll align and you will meet in the middle and you'll shake the hand date you'll agree a- satin baton way of how you can celebrate that person and they will say. I WANT TO SKULL I won't to quail will or I want to wear a pink dress or I won't be photographed with San or whatever the and that's a discussion and that's the agreement treatment. I think if I dictated and said it's interesting you know with that you would leave. McQueen it was I wanted that scalp own his head and then he had a bow tie mated bones so he was skull-and-crossbones. He was like there's no way I'm GONNA put skull on my head. Coach might have bones by really like skull and I really WANNA walk in. He he choreographs the the the skulls in the bones and made it his pigeon than he was smoking in the needs a cigarette and he stuck inside the skull in that became the pitch so that's let me as well a lot not do not to push something onto anyone because I'm taking a picture of Lee McQueen because I'm celebrating him. I'm I'm I'm not taking a pitch of Tim. Mockus impression of Lee McQueen queen. I won't the picture of Lee McQueen to be of Lee McQueen so the fact that he then changed my toys in made the maison was what made that Pitcher you assisted Abbott on your assisted Richard Add on and I noticed it was a is a quote from from him in in in the show where he he'd be advice he gave you was the The subject comes although end in the technique yet. Don't don't ever ever ever get complicated away down in props all complicated lighting flash systems that are. GonNa fuck up you you just go to the person in front is the goals that is what everything is. That is the absolute point of your that. The decisive moment is what's Infront do feel you've come to understand that better with time though that when you go into the capital of the nude for yeah yeah and and it's so graphic that room it's quite stock and like I said before it's doc it's quite erotic and that feels else to me like the sensibility that you acquire with age and experience Zena appreciation. I never would have taken needs previous said never would have I've known how to an eye has just young with age. You understand that certain people really comfortable expressing themselves need and I think again. It's like the poetry you talk to them and discuss what they want to do. In you navigate you'll camera with responsibility and with immense respect you can cry incredibly be fooled need pictures. I think that's where I'm at the moment I found that really thrilling work with people that the won't collaborate in that way I think again because he's Dipoto poed opposite to Hashem photography which is if a portrait of a subject on white plain white background is the antithesis this to a baroque fantasy set than a need study is the antithesis to fashion photography you it's such a celebration of flashlight. Ashley Rooms is all type says you've got. Beth Ditto and then you've got some Oliver Bailey the fitness instructor and Kate Monson Awesome extraordinary series of pictures based on Angela coaches but the magic toy shop with a twist united. They all all of abating photos. He's beautiful man but it's like Francis Bacon's pacing paintings of George Dyer than they've all got a a subtext I am you know it's so beauty's in the eye the bowel the and and I could see something about out of a baby that was instantly bacon. It was his bacon and it who is just he's he's. He's not a performer either. He's he's. He's a spokesman. So how'd you get a spokesman to perform become an oath to his bacon painting and yeah it was a really interesting clumsy the difficult and then when you start to see a way in to Francis Bacon world or or an then yes such exciting anyone anyone he's really interesting. A friend of mine said to tomat- she's a stylist our allies code and she said is really interesting photographing people because everyone has something anyone you could just walk out. Blindfold will come to bus in the fifth person along the seat they everyone has something and the responsibility responsibility of the photographer is to find a bt in anyone because everyone has something in a way that's the challenge of photography but it's also the freedom of Talk Radio Man. You've got you've got so much. Easy access in with the camera is a is a very convenient tool to access. I think the camera the camera gives reason it justifies one's presence somewhere and it justifies these peculiar meetings when you're photo during a tried to someone he don't you knew no because the celebrated a celebrated writer that celebrated artists you've never met them before and by virtue of the camera they all sitting being in front of you that that's this of light when I was starting out as talk for us to use my dog on a let my dog off and then I'll be snooping around trying to find a location take pitches and I thought if my dog was off and then I would be trespassing. Essentially the people come chesting have lost my dog. My dog inside the the camera is the allows you into places and gives you a reason to be the so it's it. It's not a distancing thing that it's actually makes it actually creates an intimacy. I think the camera doesn't the distance. I think if you're going to photography am with the personal photographing you'll with them. You'll use your oh celebrating them. You want them to look amazing. You want them to look glorious. That's what you'll that today. mcq cameras mainly am a black box. You put between you and then and it's it's yeah. It's a tool of intimacy. How did you come to photography kind of I didn't think cameras or can be incredibly complicated. Am things and I sort of like I don't think I can you know 'cause working with Avedon for example it will the he was put the subject. I his his camera. His technique was actually quite complicated. He worked on the tenny camera with flash full flash. Show six flashlights going off a sore eight win machines. It was incredibly dramatic. Complicated setup often even though his his mantra was keep it simple I never ever thought I could I could ever and I wasn't interested in in the camera and the workings of the camera and then I discovered a very very simple camera. That would be kind of the equivalent. I suppose of an iphone today just the anyone can just hit the button on the phone is called the camera icon on it's it works it was a Pentax k one thousand that Sam the most simple simple simplest camera you can use and once I discovered that that that that was how I went forward I was. I was always yeah so I could damage it but that's how I did it but it feels it feels to me like like your you'll inspiration. Driving Force was your own imagination nation. I love that line from your mother about guy out. Go out into the God and you don't move mothers should be saying to their kids. I guess funds in the computer. You'd go out to the garden and use you imagine easier medicine action. That feels like something that's various how I was brought up. Yes she visited like Doc. Reno has any child his that Bodo they didn't want to do side. Make it up make something happen. Make make it happen. She was of that yeah that's how she bought my brother and I up to make use your imagination. Get out into the garden and find something the nation in many ways so so because it's so perverse but it said powerful new pictures you grew up with fairies the bottom of your garden yet by Marsha I mean I think so ch- comfort comfort and reassurance from nature and being outside and I think that's where I came from and I think that's why I go walking in. You get ideas. nature's a source of and would you say that that has sort of infused your work with almost kind of pagan spirit that there is a sort of you've say Celtic I wouldn't I wouldn't say I wouldn't know if this is sort of. I wouldn't say there was a Celtics Fan. I don't know I think it should have been night. Lean in May that I think so many stories in senses in Moods and ghosts of ancient ancient landscapes that are inescapable that they they kind of that still living in a I'm living in May yeah because we'll work is so distinctive on every phase of the stuff we in this exhibition. The oldest set the the new stuff. It's so it feels like I love the idea of something coming through. You know that you will just a medium and I think in a way I think that a lot I think that I think the stories images visions regions are living things that exist in the ether and then they use these us to articulate themselves. I think I think a lot of the ideas I've had I you get a vision of something and it is often can come just very very serendipitous -ly like you're out walking like a sale. You'll be reading something and it is not what you're reading that you'll sing. It reminds your something. Something comes through it. It's sort of in the air and then I think mainly you as a person of that to make that give that story life. You'll you'll the conduit. You'll the yeah the point you make about. When you're taking a still sometimes his a gust of wind or something we should you will doing a movie but Mia this just a strange eccentric moment that view is is about being alive. I guess it's just life. I think any photograph if if any photograph if it was how I provision is that that is all I be really disappointed. I think that all the photographs the just seen as mistaken mistake in order them it is something went Rome. Something surprised may someone did something that helped make a kit. Nothing was as I planned it a tool at we had the plan in the organization to be that but something went beyond and made it something that floored me when I looked for the V. Finding and took that photograph it really it exceeded expectations stations so I often think it's not me making that it's something else and now I can only now think that is just visions are waiting to be found in. I'll take elected the fourth dimension the full dimension who who did you consider to be mental when you when you started making images. I think that when I thus I started out as just nobody young assistant there was some really sweet people that the I was small fry. Nothing people like Sarah Jane Whole Sarah Jiang was Sucha support. It was hard that said you have to go to New York to what with. She said he had to go to one of L. Goat which has Silas She was yeah she was and she said you have to go to neocon learn and dependent beginning apprenticeship she was uses she was. I mean many many people. She's very very early. Another young she helped main navigated things but it's so interesting you will you win with Avedon and you'll fighters remotely like yeah. I three of them yeah yeah but I think the I mean it would be a shame if they were because that said will you know Abbott terribly sad glad to repeat the pitches that Adam did but there's a definitely a way of to king you'll subjects six and I copy that from Abidine he had such a a great way of getting performance so a lot of people a photograph photograph that note performance a tool like Margaret Atwood. She's she's not a performer but love fashion and open-mindedness us in a good mood on the day she was very up for playing so I'm equipped with an ability of how to get performance play reacting character play from the time when assisted avalon because he was so good at that so for example I remember we're doing the assault she campaign and the two models Kristen McMenemy Knowledge Almond Almond with dressed in black facade she seats in shoulder pads little mini skirts and Craig White Stiletto Cheese and they came out and I looked to the models as an assistant standing that with the light working with with evidence. How is he going to navigate. How is he going to make these very ordinary. what quite close to see how is he gonNa tell until Richard Avedon photograph and he decided then he looked at them and he said you'll you'll crows you'll buds annual on a branch and you'll fighting because you've both seen one below and then. Najran crashed into the ruffled slaves and made the jackets and they became Tame Black Crows and the camera the tonight cameras on the floor sheeting up and they fought for the one on the studio floor and that's what make the pet so it wasn't about you. Go just to the left. You're stunning. You're sexy Oho. You're you'll fabulous. It was your crow and you'll fighting for one and they even they took off that she's in. They started hitting one another with us to get the the one that wasn't a worm that wasn't abroad that wasn't a crow but it became an avid on pitcher and he did that time and time again that character play and then that's what I now compete ESA. So how does the Tim Walker picture become a Tim Walker picture. what's your equivalent of telling the Girls Two Black Crows on burn which I think is that is that playfulness and I think it's encouraging everyone who I'm working with just to be open to possibilities of mistake. I think it's always been mistakes and the always things the time they come in they. They sound and crazy to do them but no we can't do that. We can't the best place play play. How do they come. Those ideas. Do Dream came to dream They come. They come from the same places that you look at books and film stories. People tell you all incidences notices. You're going about your life or historical facts but they come in the M. Mix so you mix up a historical fact with a contemporary thing you've seen on the straight with a an old painting mixed with them a piece of melodic muscle ingredients the make the recipe I mean the show wonderful things it is as you said it's you'll love letter to the Vienna and their incredible bowl resources that they have here that span millennia and every single creative endeavor. You can think of a human being embarking on when did that relationship ships start because it feels to me. It's very what you were just saying Bat jawing and so many disparate elements to make the images just it feels that that is the this is an essential expression of that this this exhibition avoid nine the vein a be growing up in this country we will come on school trips intone and so he knew it was about but I think that the the the actual will commission from the night work on this project a came from a series of photographs. I did that exhibited in this exhibition based on the garden of Earthly Delights unanmous Bush painting the Vienna Soul photographs taken inspired by that painting and then they thought well you know if you can make those photographs based on the guard Murphy Delights. We've we've had a museum stacked with the most extraordinary desperate eclectic notion humankind's articulation of beatty. Could you go there some much. I mean it goes from a something from Catherine Hamlet teasha to a ring dug up up in in the desert from five thousand. BC The time is so desperate and whether you're looking at pieces stained glass or metal work or an exquisite Asian Hindi storytelling illustration as some much but what the common thread is is it's. It's an articulation of beatty. I think it's like the most sublime. Bt that when you look food in your take them to the cloth workers or storage unit summer Martin Avena and the pillow droll and as a gray folks and it's called a string round they open that and then there's another box inside that in tissue PIPO inside that there's a a black glove that so the embroidery in the glove is so sublime line and so unbelievably beautiful nice that's Elizabeth I writing loves and you're just everything said like like a explosion in your head said of like his extraordinary to thank those gloves in that box belonged don't Elizabeth the first and that's how she would she held onto the reins of the whole in those jobs any look the embroidery and it's just yes he is. It's unbelievably. Beautiful will now each of the rooms in the exhibition. You have chosen objects from the museum's two Million Object Archive and you've built your weld around around it can be as tiny. Here's a snuff box the room. The Room met expands adverse single snuff bones. Is the perfect example yeah. How did you confronted by the so much choice. How did you select the said you based on. What you initially you go to the Vienna new you spend in a year going round anything disconnect everything just really it was such a an extraordinarily narrowly the privilege. I think of the commission and you really want to honor that privilege wholeheartedly and and truthfully and really engaged everything they have and I realized that that was impossible. I the there's no way you can see everything so oh then I just kind of let go a bit relaxed and just sort of delved into celebrity surprising places in the particularly that little snuff books folks comes from a collection that Vienna hold the actually are there was nothing in in that collection that was tool interesting and I should have really not relating to anything anything that I was looking at and then that one it'll magical snuffed books wishes the size of the matchbooks and then when you look at it as a whole world within it is like a magical Gaudin at night time with a prince or Princess Woking Dragon. Can picking flowers that grow on a full name. It's almost too small for me to say Deanna the incredible and that immediately it. I don't know who made the snuff box. I can achieve now. Tell you what year was made assembly nineties right seventeen ninety five but I think just the the explosion when you look at something of that beauty humaid it where it's come from year his that's not the point. The point is whoever made it that articulation of beauty and refinement in skill will and sensitivity and Gross Romanticism touched me it really really touched me an illuminated me and then that illumination as owner need as we needed sort of like yes explosion that goes off new had all you want to do is make response to that as token you you can immediately see this whole landscape grow out in front of you and we know exactly healthy onerous see what I think is extraordinary is that each of those objects inspired a body of work when you from you which you which at and the body of work was something you did editorially annual fashion work so this project is wonderful things project which has been going on for what three years yes. He is actually shake your entire. Output Your Professional. It wasn't just something you were doing on the side it shape shape your entire professional out everything. I mean when you see it here. I think that that to me is obviously I've seen older shoots when you did the magazines things like I D and Vogue. Everybody else set you up for and to see the genesis album. It's this big picture. Here is enthralling rolling. I think is very important to me that the pictures were in the in magazines in culture it today because I think that was something else I want to honor all those historical objects and Magnum very contemporary so even though they published in magazines jeans and if you'll vote in the fascist g much seen some of the pitches but then when you come back and he see they've come from right you say the genesis of that. That's that's where the hall of the Mozzarella's. I think the most poignant room is the room with is he a model thing with yeah and the Baltic Sangram the attack room the I think it has the bucks teenage girls senior girl. May that is the most poignant room for me too. It's and she made that box when in the sixteen sixteen seventy and she before that trinity she's the crossing is treasury books to put COULDA casket it and on the outside the panels embroidered intricate embroidery of Chivalrous Knights Kissing princesses people on hoses is uniforms moths and caterpillars and touching that a fifteen year old girl would Creighton object such. Bt because it was well he was crating. I'm secret secret drools where she could love letters in her jury. Hush secret things have most treasured treasured things and then had a lock on it and it's sort of like it felt like an iphone today the Senate I dare of will that we carry out funds lost lost mine. This morning refounded same Josie. If you're few that we keep it. They are treasure boxes. We keep a photographs on them McKee. You keep messages we we they are our private worlds that is is some potent and energies found that yeah incredibly touching and then you extemporised to James Fences private world old we way you photograph him in the House he grew up in yeah which is where backup quite grim yet by gray and he went in grim and he's China's very beautiful man very romantic figure and he most interesting what was interesting for me was that he feels more beautiful as a woman and then he comes down to London and he transformed himself and he dresses dresses up and he looked goes to the Vienna any looks Lizard Bethan costuming exit looks at fifty could churn he takes that own and becomes his most beautiful self but she's a woman and I think that whole bridge from Tottenham looking at periods of history what people will wearing him going out clubbing dancing with friends in that remmel has friends on the wall they were and then you can see echoes of Cheetah collapse you consume in Elizabeth in Russell. You can see history in the club I've seen in in London with him and his friends and that was the the love letter to the little fifteen year old girl who created her world in sixteen seventeen with her immaculate heartfelt embroidery hair. It's being able to sing again in a contemporary way and that obviously that's super talk. Oh Mum that's identity and self creation and the sort of gender fluidity I guess but but I think throughout all the rooms in wonderful things what you become really aware of is how transformative the power of the imagination said it's not just you being inspired by the object that some people made the object even conceive of the object then you put James Fence in the Boston Garden Mike the like you imagine that that swelled in his head very vivid surreal environment with there are no rules and why he can be well he wants to be. It's his the freedom fame to express himself and would be what he wants to be. which is the the most thrilling point of humanity the honesty to to say what you are is is photography that that's what I want? That's that's what I live foil so that kind of people joined to generally. I see on the wall. He yeah whether it's Tilda swinton will eat well. Oh Beth Ditto yeah in the it's a very strong sense sense of of people who will go wherever you want them to go or debating there and you're taking a picture away. I think that they they inspired me because maybe when I was younger I couldn't go more. I wanted to go. I felt said if chained by expectations or cultural societies some sort of repression I suppose than to see an exist and work in collaborate with the people that are liberated. Thanks very an own that beauty in all. The extremities of beauty is really positive thing on his barring. Thanks I mentioned the Sitwell that little bit is is is that's not the Vivian Lee Wig as from Streetcar named his is that was in the Vienna's archives the wing that Vivien Leigh Warren Street counting disaster and extraordinary story that with the I went to one of the departments here and there was really old object walk to know whether it was sort of an an taxidermy animal can walk out what it was and it was wrapped in neon a neon orange net as well. It's that and that Oh that's Vivian wake that she wore industry named desire and it's yet is the character of `Blanche launch. What's so exciting is discovered the the the original wake maker. Gwen Franklin from nineteen fifty is alive and living in London and she's now in the late eighties and she's going mm to reset the wake for archive as Blanche Dubois and she lives in the Barbican analysis. That's extrordinary story and and then we're going through Cecil Beaton telegrams and he sent to latitude Vivien Leigh's husband Lawrence Levy saying nothing not what was going on Broadway this year in the forties but this is this is young playwright Tennessee Williams. He's ANA this play a streetcar named desire and I think Vivian really should read that script she could she could really enjoy that and so it's interesting that beaten crated. Vivian Lees launch it was him he was the catalyst. I didn't know that now no I didn't but I think it's very interesting on that later manages to mention a streetcar named desire without mentioning Modern Brando which was the reason why electrified Broadway and spelling dealing with these nightmare on Sony humans it is just such a beautiful coming together of a a journey through the Vienna Inn finding a very light you say very sort of shorthand misspelt telegram to Laurence Olivier the get persuading Finley to depart and then there's the wake and then that's the book that I read at School. We had to read that in English Street. Crime dissolves was the text we read so I was always fascinated by lange. She held such she such pity related to her at a very young age lizard questions ask right there with the WIG that becomes part of your story the WIG last year the the lead from Cecil Beaton to my dear Larry and retelling stories like this whole this something else show that reacquainting people people with the power of imagination but also educating them in a way and this is the world is infinite. You know that that that that you walk around that shower showers this so much to take on. Do you feel a sense of mission in a way that I was thinking of. This is a legacy project. We've done it so long on. You've you've intertwined your story and the story so tightly in the show that it's kind of it stands there is a body of work that will that it will exist amongst this museum. Does I think I I really had any future projection. I didn't really think about I think I really just enjoyed the the thrill of the resource of the van a and finding things really surprised me and and really using it intensely going to the library going down to two corridor oft corridor after corridor of back departments looking at objects in things and just finally to this infinite infinite objects beatty and it just it just goes on and on and it's just I think that the story of bt not the story of the decorative arts is just an ongoing living thing of such gauguin chew in proportion ocean. It's like a bomb like a medicine such an important medicine than to to be here in this enormous museum and see associate existing as an infinite enormous Utopian beautiful vision. I think is fundamental abyss romantic theory that the power of UC lies in its transient you feel in a way you will counteracting that by giving these things a permanent beyond. I mean finding Vivian these for example but there are other things is sort of everything isn't grand their humble things things as well Do you feel that you do you feel that you that you're bringing kind of permanence to these objects by making them into some bite by by on is like an Alchemy that you perform. You know. You're making them into something else. Nothing that thing that just that all the objects in in the show off just things have really touched me and they might not touch people in in the same way I think the Vienna holds things some many things that would food food touch other people. I think I think that just pus. Naptha me that things that have really emmys me illuminated me me floored me in that. Bt I think I think that yeah what about the idea of the transient sobriety though you you fight of your your job job years and he has to fed across extremely beautiful people looking extremely beautiful and extremely beautiful clouds in glorious against glorious backdrops a you this is sort of melancholy and aetna way because all things must pass and and actually melancholy in Cali is something that I rather enjoy in your work. I think it's so interesting. He said I think that by virtue of clicking the the cable release on a camera that is a melancholic sound to me because you'll seeing you someone or something actors optimum beauty whether that Sicel Tiv- Garden and has blit at four o'clock in the afternoon in the APP sleep the most exquisite light and you take the picture and you know that the seasons seasons changing in someone's leaving ultimate coming and he's you're taking a picture of a girl so unbelievably other worldly wildly beautiful. You know that that will change. There is as a photographer. I'm hyper aware of my Komo Tallahassee. I think now I'm valuable because of the transients because you take pictures of things and you take pitches of houses in than they crumble jumble. Will they get a restored and then whenever stole they lose their soul yet. I think there is a definite melancholy Tokar face inescapable is an inescapable Memento Mori inescapable take the thick you click of the cameras and then you like that goes the optimum time that goes the BT's get that sets down then when you have a photograph on that Ah Tutti representation of something that was sublime and do you feel as such a perfect place to stop but I have to ask you. Do you feel whether there's a slight that spirit of defiance in your latest weapon I think beauty I think and I the moment the little death patty more of the chemically is in end and but then ends with followed by beginnings and I think that being melancholic back and sad about losing something is done engage that for too long because you know that girl that was was ready beat full so when she was in twenties she can be even more beautiful when she's in her seventies and I think that's something I've really you come to recognize is that beauty comes back in waves seasons. Come back some comes back. Does Ashley will be to winter yeah. Beauty comes back was willing and as you leave wonderful all things the very last image is the book with a bed comment about new beginnings so there's a whole whole other world waiting for you. Yeah yeah think so. Thanks thank you ten. Thanks to thank you very much. If you enjoyed this conversation you might also be interested in joining us. 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