4/29: What Was The Biggest Surprise Of The NFL Draft?
Welcome to the audible, presented by trader Joe's. I'm Stewart Mandel joined has always by Bruce Feldman, and the last the we said we're going to wait and do this when we were together and Phoenix later this week, but the side to speed things up a little bit marched parked has. We've got a lot of thoughts coming off the NFL draft that we wanna share while they're still more fresh before we get to that. So I have a question for you found out something tonight. We're taping Sunday. And usually I will sit like it's REM wait for them to get to sleep. And I'm while I do that in the dark all glance on my phone. It's come to my attention that I might be the only person in the United States who does not watch game of thrones. Oh, no, no, no. This has been an might be there been kind of a weird weekend for me about it. It's been a weird weekend to be on Twitter because I've never watched any of the vendors movies, and that seems to be all anybody's talking about. And I've never watched game of thrones. And on Sunday night. It was like a sporting event was going on. It was live play by play of some sort of battle going on game of thrones. I'm sure most people watch listen to this watch it and think that we're couple eightieths. But I got nothing at on that. Yeah. I just like I'm looking whom I got everybody. I know not only follow this show. But there are like they are so invested in it, which is you know, that's great. Let's talk about the draft. So I spent a ton of time watching it. All three days, but I know one one it should be very very polarized. Call a polarizing, I'm not sure I felt like anybody was supportive of it. Which was the giants taking dukes Daniel Jones with the sixth overall pick you liked it though. Didn't you know who that is there anybody other than David cliff with a smart move, probably not unless somebody's connected to the the manning cut cliff kind of connection there? I don't think there was a ton of people who liked it. Well, if you go back to last year's draft the one that really could founded me, Josh Allen. I felt like you take in this kind of completely unproven middle of the pack quarterback from the mountain west and the NFL draft really kind of did not play. Well, the only games that he had when they played power five teams. I mean, his numbers were pretty horrible. And he also like two years ago when he was a second last season. She had a bunch of guys on his offense who ended up playing in the NFL. His final year there. He did not. But I think people fell in love with a huge arm, and he was pretty outlet. And my crew did a bills game last year in all things being equal. Meaning his best receiver was was Robert Foster undrafted free agent by the end of the year. That's you know, I guess it wasn't as bad as I think probably you or in some other folks would have expected, but still we're talking top ten picks here. Yeah. And the thing is Josh Allen. I mean, if you remember one point in that cycle he was projected to be the number one pick Melkite by doing okay. The number one pick at one point because I'm looking back at an article I wrote about it at the time. This would have been in late February twenty eight teen just showing that there's just almost no precedent for a quarterback who puts up such mediocre staff in college to become a star NFL quarterback. Now, there are plenty of cowed quarterbacks who put up big numbers and don't do anything in the NFL. But I don't really see it the other way around. So before we go go too far down this one at bring up something that came up on on this very topic. So Dan Orlovsky does really great ex- knows work former uconn quarterback spent like a dozen years in the NFL. He tweeted out something to the fact of which I think I agree with, and I think you probably agree with which is kind of getting what you're saying. Can we remember a guy wasn't great in the NFL in college? And then expected him to be that way in at the next level. And I can remember one guy was that. And that's Tom Brady. Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback in pro football history. But I didn't end yet. Maybe I'm using semantics, but I did not think Tom Brady, you know, you could say Tom Brady was good in his last years at at Michigan. But it wasn't like, you know, he was probably if you were to look at it the fourth best quarterback in the big ten his senior year behind drew Brees hall of Famer Antwan Randle El was a fantastic playmaker at Indiana. And even if you look at what Kirk Kitchener did that you're twenty five to five touchdown interception ratio for Illinois. I think probably would have you would have said at a better year. But again, that's where they're kind of semantics get Dan Wetzel. You know, who I've respect for? He was kind of going back and forth on it. And it was like, no what you can't argue Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of all time and dance point was I think he was not used right? Well, that's probably true. Because we'll yeah. I mean figured it out. What will what my history of said if Willie car hadn't felt compelled? I really drew hats. Was the I was either number one player in the country. If he was at least the number of quarterback, this is this is actually predated the two four seven Araya's era. So I think this pressure that he had to play drew Henson. And so he never was an he he wouldn't just turn it over fulltime to Brady they were always splitting. But again, I'm not even sure how how comparable that is the situation. Tom Brady went in the sixth round right expectations. Yeah. Who had been who was just good, but not great in college. And then all of a sudden, you're gonna take them in the top ten look. Here's all pro. If you do that. Oh, yeah. And I think if you're you're expected to be a franchise guy, you know. And so I mean, we think about some of the guys who've gone that high have turn out to be kind of. 'cause Ryan leaf was a great college quarterback. I would see, you know, that's the guy people associated with bust. Jamarcus? Russell jamarcus. Russell wasn't a bad college quarterback. You know by any stretch, obviously, the huge arm. I mean, you go back Christian. Ponder went really high. I mean Christian. Ponder was not a you know, what what do you think of Christian? Ponder. When I besides whose marriage. What do you think of him as a college quarterback? I mean, he would not ordering. That. I mean, college football has changed. So I would say actually NFL football changed so much since then that at that time, it was just kind of assumed that if you were a certain height and you played a pro style offense you were going to get drafted high. Right. It wasn't that Christian. Ponder was a fantastic house quarterback is that he fit the mold and the one that I brought up last year comparison to who I found to be the closest comparable college quarterback. Josh Allen recently was Jake locker who is another thick is being made purely on potential and physical specimen and not anything. I'm gonna do this college career. So I just looked up. So I will Josh Allen. There was months hype surrounding him. I think the thing is so perplexing to many of us about the June's kind of came out of nowhere. I knew he was being talked about as a in the upper tier of quarterbacks. First round. You're talking about came out in order to be a top ten pick. Right. There was talk. You might crack the first round. And I thought that was a little weird. But I wasn't really I didn't think too much of it. But number six pick him draft. You like you said now the expectation that you will succeed manning and be the franchise quarterback in in the biggest city in the country. And it's just it's just not going to happen. There's there's absolutely no precedent for somebody. Who was so middle of the road in college to beat NFL star quarterback. Scott Pelley tweeted, this kind of a complimentary impressed way. Unfortunately, some people took it, but I was throwing him under the bus. I don't know why. But he came out firing that night after the draft and his lead. And he said, I probably watch more football than the average person because they're always on in that first window of the day, and I often have money on them and cetera et cetera. And at no point he said I ever feel like I was watching quarterback would go number six in the draft. So. It. The whole thing is is really bizarre and chose you. There's a little bit of like, I think a lot of if not most of the NFL at this point has moved on from the, oh, you know, they height, and they have a certain arm strength. Therefore, we're in love with you know, clearly collar Murray is the opposite of that. But this guy Dave Gettleman, literally said he watched three series of the senior on fell in love with him. It's almost like he's the old guy in moneyball who doesn't want to these. These are these kids with all their analytics, you just go with your gut. That's my take away from that. So I know Dave Gettleman I'm gonna give you a quick really really random story when I was in into tenth grade. I went to football camp Ameris college. So they've got him. It was our high school football coach back, then he wasn't there at my school for very long end up going to be a sky. Dave Gettleman was your coach he wasn't my coach. By that time. I was in. I was only ninth grade. But he was already with the varsity. He was varsity head coach high school for a couple years before he went. I believe he went to the bills first. And then the giants as a scout. And I think he learned under Bill Polian. But yeah, so here's my memory of him was go to this camp. And by the way, pretty short John Dorsey who's now GM with the with the Browns also worked at camp, he was a linebacker at uconn at the time, and I think he was one of the counselors. But anyway, so I was there after a couple of days, and I just did not feel right? I was pretty sick. And I just didn't know what was wrong. So I remember coach cattleman who is like, you know, kind of responsible for all of us, especially from my hometown. He takes me into the Marras college dining hall, and he fills up one of those old style trays with with the little short juice glasses and gives me like, I don't know a dozen asses of apple juice, and he says something is a really thick Boston accent. And he said you're gonna drink so much this you're gonna think you have Antlers and. I don't know if he was going to be out whatever I had or what I mean, look the eighties. But a couple of days later, we found out actually have mono, and I think I missed the first month of school. So I hadn't seen you know. Like, I remember I talked to him at the at the NFL combine probably three years ago. I knew wasn't gonna remember me. There was no reason for them to for that. But yes, so that's my connection to the Daniel Jones giant story. Not going to say, I'm not gonna say that you're you're dead wrong in these right? 'cause I I like I like the do guys respect them. And I've heard a lot about Daniel Jones. But I think a lot of what you said I'm skeptical. I mean to me, and I've said this foreign podcast Dwayne Haskins is the closest thing to a not a sure thing, but the the best of this quarterback bunch. And I think there's a big difference to me between Wayne Askins and everybody else who's not Cuyler Murray. So you look at this. And I think man po-point this out fifty nine two seven against wait for. That's how you get get drill by that's one hundred forty five yards. I get that. You know, Duke doesn't have the weapons that Oklahoma. Or certainly to a has or definitely that. What what Wayne asking says? But he wanted against Wake Forest as defense. Wasn't like Wake Forest has has clemson's guys there either. I don't know. I mean, you know, one of his best games was against your mater on the road sixteen for twenty two three touchdowns zero picks. But I don't know I'm with you on that scam not much on the he didn't have a great support. I mean, Brock you think I will stay me at Brock party had Akeem Butler, but I don't think he has like Brocker, but he has a terrific running back to. I don't know if I was to pass around the country is a true freshman last season. You know, you don't have to play for Alabama Clemson Ohio State to put up. Good good pass efficiency numbers and for the record. Daniel Jones was sixty six in the country in pass efficiency sixty percent passer. Twenty six hundred seventy four yards twenty two touchdowns nine interceptions. His passer rating is actually lower than Tom Brady's was in college. So I wanna ask you though, speaking of quarterbacks, you know, you've you have unique vantage point on Josh Rosen. You've known him. You know, you've covered him. He was in your book since high school, and I feel like this latest chapter where he's this bizarre situation where he goes from being number ten pick in the draft. You know, supposedly quarterback of the future to trade it away for for a number sixty two pick a third round pick a year later. You saw a lot of NFL media type suddenly that morning, I guess mostly because he stopped following the cardinals on Twitter start talking about his well there's concerns around the NFL about. Josh row. People don't like Josh Rosen. And I feel like this comes up every it came up when he was recruit they came up when he's going into the draft. And now coming up again. Well, I think polarizing personality I think some of what is kind of fodder right now some of the stuff that started when he was a recruit. Right. So I think he was a kid, and you know, I saw this some of, you know, somewhat when I was working on the QB book was he would it didn't seem like much of a filter now in fairness to him. He was seventeen years old and he had a microphone in front of him. When a lot of times, some of these kids don't, and so there was that piece of it. You know, there's a doc well-known story about him. And and David Shaw, the Stanford coach, and look he would have been better than whoever they had at quarterback that we see, you know, Keller. Chris didn't end up having eight great, you know, college career whatnot. But it was just like, okay. What am I comfortable as I think you had stuff like that? Then you have I don't drink. This is. Any fault of his but he had three different offense coordinators three years at UCLA. None of that was his fault and the two of the coordinators that I know pretty well really like Josh Rosen. Thank he's really talented, but also really liked them. So I think some of it. He's not the only quarterback that comes from a lot of money. There's quite a few quarterbacks who come from. Let's see about the nature of the position. But but that position more than a lot of others because I feel like sometimes those families need to, you know, spend all this money in their quarter in their kids development. You get a lot of kids who come from affluent background. So I don't necessarily think it's that. But I just think it's a combination of a lot of factors. And then it's just a weird story. You know, because I saw the one of the mind the herald reports tweeted something out, and I don't know out resource Orwell source that person is on this. But just basically said the the person is the issue, and then you saw a lot of use awesome. Other people fire back at him, including some former Arizona Cardinals. And I think you saw. Larry FitzGerald, who's probably the most qualified person of anybody who's in the cardinals locker room, the speak on him, you know, speak allowing Lee about Josh Rosen this weekend. So I don't know. I mean, I think in the end it's probably worked out for him. Well, in that he's you know, he's going to have a similar chance in Miami. He can't have a worse offense. Hainan Miami, then he had narrow Zona. And, you know, look, I think if you're with Kingsbury, you got a guy in Kyle or you're you're probably more comfortable, and they they drafted a bunch of wide receivers and Isabela aforementioned Hakim Butler, but I don't know how much better they're gonna be on the offense align so so we'll see how that works out. You know, Stephanie one of the more interesting subplots of this weekend was everything then Rosen, I think to his credit and a lot of people recognize this gave a very classy gesture and in the minute long video that he posted thanking the Zona fans, and I think people saw maybe a different side of if they don't know much about. All right from a college football standpoint. Obviously, there are things that won't come as prize. Right. Yes. She had the most picks again they actually set the record in the Super Bowl era for graphics. Alabama has a lot of guys picked Clemson has a lot of guys pit Clemson. You know, we we talked in this podcast last summer about potential for historic defensive line ended up with three I read guys. And then I think awesome Brian win in the fourth remorse. So the one that sticks out to me a little bit is Notre Dame. Because obviously last year there was they were very, you know, well, they're always very polarizing, but when they got blown out in the ball game if became yet another referendum on that. They don't belong than not they're not elite. And I think we know that they are not as stacked with five stars upon five stars like clumps in Alabama are, but I did find it a little curious that some of their most hype players from from this playoff team last season. Didn't turn out to be all that highly regarded by the NFL Jerry Taylor did go in the first round. But you know, when you're all American cornerback. Join love it turns out to be a fourth round draft pick. They swore by drew twin quill he's a fourth round guy. Dexter williams. The star running back who can't you know, suspended early on comes in really reunites. The offense a sixth round pick. You only other ones they had Myles boykin Sieber went in the third round. And as allies MAC tight end went in the seventh round. So it is a decent number of picks to be drafted who drafted which just there's a big difference between the rounds that the clumps in Alabama and Ohio State players and Oklahoma players. We're going in versus the Notre Dame players. So I'm wondering if you think that that's in any way, I mean take Julian love, right? And I know you're not you don't give out those awards based on NFL draft stock, but quarterback is a position where I think if we look up the list of Thorpe award winners. There's gonna be a pretty strong correlation with they went onto to be big names in the NFL to Julian love get hyped up more than he probably should have because he was a Notre Dame because he played at Notre Dame as opposed to Oklahoma state. What you read into this? I don't know. I mean on one hand to me the biggest example of that was meant I to- he won every award. You could the linebacker and made a real run at the is when he was one of the three finalists. And then I remember interviewing a bunch of NFL personnel people when he's going into the draft. Obviously, the Leno was alumni Kuku was a kukupa. Yeah. So whole cat fishing thing. That was all bazaars. It was you know, when you talk to people this wasn't Patrick Willis as a talent. He was a very good player. But I mean, if you would the hype around them in college was that he was more than Patrick Willis that he was like one of the greatest linebackers we've ever seen and that obviously hasn't been the reality. You look at what you know. He's at the NFL. I mean, he's basically an average linebacker or slightly above average linebacker. And again, I think that speaks to maybe the height they're a little bit. I do think it's you can have it kind of both ways a little bit on this. Because Norman put out a stat through Michael berz. They're they're us ide- about Jerry Tillery, the ninth first round pick that Notre Dame's had in the past eight years, and that's actually the third most of any program in that over that span. So on one hand, and I went back and kind of chart it that if you look at the previous eight years before Brian Kelly took over they only have one first round pick. And I was Brady Quinn. So they have gotten better if you look at the well it only to other schools about more first round picks. And that's you know, first round elite talent. I mean, I think that would make the case a better case for it. So yeah with interesting is they they'd had years where they had a lot of hydraulics two thousand six. Eighteen they had Ronnie Stanley. We'll go in the first round. Jalen Smith went and second. We know he would have gone. I before that injury. Nick Martin was in the second round twenty fourteen they had one two three three guys in the first or second to more in the third and just last year. They had both went Nelson. Mike mcglinchey go in the top ten picks. So anything it really just says that this team that went to the playoffs last season may not have been quite as loaded with elite talent as some of his previous teams. I mean, again, I think I think they're good. I don't you know, I think what you're talking about. Maybe as just a gap between them and and everybody else them being Alabama. Really? Because that to me is different. Clemson as as I was perked up. But I think right now, it's Alabama. That's that's the difference. Was there any that puzzle? Ju- either a guy beyond Daniel Jones who way earlier somebody like this guy's still on the board. It can't say that I was sitting here with the big board of here's your supposed to killing what round by the time. He got. Into late around. But I remember when Trayvon Williams name popped up for the Bengals in the fourth round. No, maybe keep going sick. Yeah. I remember thinking he was the SEC's leading rusher last season. He turned pro a year early. I don't remember anybody being like, oh, I don't know about that. He might he would have been smart to come back for another year. No, the feeling was he'd reached a certain stardom level where you do turn pro. And okay, not first round not second round, okay with sixth around. Yeah. That really surprised me was something. I should is there something I'm missing on trivia Williams. She was the name that I was going to go with tweeted this much. I was stunned. He into hundred fifty picks was still available on the board. Other running backs were going. He's not the biggest running back, but he's all these one hundred eighty five pounds. Now. I think it was noteworthy that the team that picked them, by the way, do the SEC in Russia, the SEC, by considerable gap there like, I don't know. Back for another year. It has another big year that that would really even elevated Stott like what what were they need to see, you know, in one one thing that again, I was going to get to is. I think it's noteworthy that the team that took him with the Bengals. And by the way, the Bengal offense allying goes was Jim Turner who came from Texas 'em. So I think he'd probably a pretty good indicator going. Hey, you might wanna take this guy. No. He got Joe mix and everybody is high in his talent. I would expect Trayvon Williams to have a a good career in the NFL. But your point I think about the specially running backs as kind of a larger point in. So our colleague and buddy. Max Olsen seem to have stirred up quite the little hornet's nest with a tweet he sent out and we're going to have max onto defend himself on this or to to kind of frame it better. But he's stuck in travel somewhere to resign ah. But what happened is related to Mike Leach has got himself feud with the other half of the pony express. Now interesting what were the? Odds of that. Crazy. I don't know if I, you know, by the way, are you too young to know who Lance mcilhenny is. Not only that is okay. He was actually the quarterback about team. So I don't know if could cross ords with him. But so what happened in not shell was? We'll be Williams who was a good running back for Washington state was a fourth year junior decided to come out, and I'll be honest. None of this is followed till the until spokesman review of Spokane the paper that basically covers was you had done a story about Erickson's tweets and about really taking issue with Leach and alleged that Lee had bad mouth, boob Williams to NFL personnel people. Now what I think we've seen as Leach was skeptical of didn't think he made a good decision to come out. Boobs went undrafted and was one of many underclassmen who went undrafted. And I think to get back to your point though, as a running back, and this is the part where I don't know if he comes back, and this is a kid by the the guy who. I think has a child on the way with his with as either fiancee's or wife, and I think that have another child that from from her previous relationship or so. But would you realistically I don't if that kid comes back. I Washington state. I mean, he's probably not going to be drafted more than a at best six or seven th round. Or anyway, he's gonna put rush for seventeen hundred yards there. People already know pretty good rec- rounded back field. But you kind of know what they are. And I feel like as when it comes to running back values of less your saquon Barkley or that kind of you know, talent you're not going to be anywhere near a top ten pick. And what one running back went in the first round Josh Jacobs. You know, again, I I don't know what it takes for some of these guys too. You know, I could see why running backs roll the dice and say, you know, I only have so many carries in my body. And I'm gonna try to make a living and see if I can catch on because we see plenty of examples running backs who I mean, look at Philip Lindsay. He went undrafted. And he was a revelation for the. Broncos last year. I feel like running back as a position where there's not we get to appoint where there's not much more you can do. And certainly he's in you know, playing the worst possible offense to showcase himself as a running back. But it was interesting window into you know, it we're only getting this from one side. But if air Dickerson, this correct that Mike Leach was bad mouthing this kid's NFL teams. You know? I know that that's part of the process is the NFL teams, obviously, call the college coaches to get to vet these guys. But I would be very uncomfortable of our coach I've very uncomfortable. Badmouthing one of my players unless he's did something really terrible. Because you know, you're trying to part of your appeal. But when you go out on the recruiting chair, you're trying to tell guys, hey, we'll help you get in the league. Well, we're gets out that your badmouthing your players. You know, why would I go there? This guy is not he's not gonna help me. Get in the league's actually going to cost me a chance in the league. Look, I I don't know that we did that. I mean right now. It's like you said, it's one side of the story. I think that what seem to rile up people was a Leech at if you re tweet or screen shotted max is tweet about how many underclassmen again seem to be pretty pretty blatant sub of reference, right? Yeah. So I think that probably was was adding fuel to this fire. I'm not, you know, again, I think that if you're if you're a football coach he's been in the in college football for a long time, you've probably know a ton of personnel people in a ton of coaches. And so I'm sure that they, you know, try to get as much of an honest opinion as they can from from coaches, and I just you know, you just don't know what you're getting. I don't know if you remember, but like a year ago, I think I forgot I think it was to Sean Elliott we took to Twitter to rip Tom Herman rip Texas for what he felt like he was getting you know, he felt like somebody sold him out. Or didn't you know? So I don't know I it's falls into that really murky gray area. And again, I just just the part that was so bizarre own my God. This is the other side of the pony express backfield is like, and I I mean who knows it's just so weird. Matt Hinton tweeted out when he call. Ause the all this year's all undrafted team big-name college players to went on draft in these are not just underclassmen. In fact, most of them are not under five, but Jake Browning, you know, all these inside with teams as free agents, but Jake Browning obviously for your starter. One a lot of games at Washington. But this kind of I think confirms what you know. I think Washington getting pretty frustrated by the end, and he's not seen as an NFL talents. I was gonna lift off some names, let me know any of these really stand out. See you Ron Hagan the Michigan running back David sills West Virginia a little bit a little bit on him and a little bit on the next guy low or non-free little Jordan Humphry. We did some Texas games the coaches, they're just raved about how football smart he is. Now, he's not fast. But he's a six four two hundred thirty pound guy who played in the slot. I'd be surprised if he's not an NFL player at least one that stood out to me Mitch Hyatt quanson because it's a little window into what I like to say, which is. We all do these all American teams or vote on all American teams. And I I fully admit like sports writers self I should not be picking the offense of lineman. You can call coaches and ask who they think offensive linemen are. We don't have who the best offense alive at our. But I do know this because of that because there's no real staffs any office of Wyman who starts a true freshman is basically just slotted into a track where once you become third year fourth year starter you're going to be an American. So that's what happened when the he's a two time all American two time ACC offense lineman of the year and did not get drafted. So my guess is. We didn't really actually know anything about him during the actual playing. We just thought. Well, he's good enough to start for clumps in a playoff team as a true freshman. Pretty good. Yeah. You don't interesting is. I mean, people can knock the ACC. She had some really good pass rushers. You know in that league or the past years, and obviously a bunch of them come from. Clemson. He would have played against them every day. But it reminded me a little bit of Barrett Jones from Alabama and Barrett. Jones was a guy who we all loved in the media because he was very thoughtful kid. He played Alati bounced all over the all over the lower the line and was versatile. But he I don't think went in the top hundred picks. I think he only lasts in the NFL maybe a year or so it doesn't mean he wasn't good player to Alabama always integral part of things. But I just you know, it underscores what you're talking about. Which is you know, it's just something that most sports writers. And I don't wanna throw Andy Staples under the bus. But Andy actually as a national title ring for being an offense alignment at Florida. I'm not sure, you know, I don't know any sports writers. I mean, I'll give the Taylor's coal. Cumulus critic. I think that they're studying it, and that's all they're doing when they're do that Joe more award. But like you said, I mean, the only way. Gonna I feel like yet grasp it as if we talked to a lot of coaches about who they think is good Darryl Willis had a big year. Miami main of our wrote a great story theathe let all the reasons why or theories why he didn't get drafted going back to incident he had five years ago as a freshman at Florida became Florida, CC Jefferson who is a surly five-star coming into school marches Alibaba another Florida yet also five star guy did not draft. It key J Edwards was I believe in all American as a junior at Wisconsin for Guston became known more for the targeting penalties as much as the football. Yeah. I think he gets to a point where you say, oh, I can't believe this guy wasn't a first rounder. I can't believe the end of the day like way more guys get get branded as a first round or or or first day guy. Then there are spots for right? Unfortunately, I don't know. I think you know, some chance some cases we probably greatly overestimated the guy's draft sock. But in other cases, it's just and I feel like this in particular. True with quarterbacks. I mean, the number four Bax with some point their branded as possible first rounder. I remember talking to Gus malzahn going into Nick Marshall lease them to the national championship game. And then going into the next season. He says he's got Nick marshals on NFL arm. You might have. It might not be accurate thing. You know, there's there's all this conversation at a bar with some football coaches a year ago about one of the strongest arms ever seen was a defensive lineman who is in the NFL for awhile and played at Hawaii. They throw the ball ninety arts. I guess that's an NFL arm, but the NFL on this can you can you be accurate, and, you know, look one of the guys who's like who got hyped up a lot. And didn't get drafted wasn't on your wasn't on that Matt hidden list was tie Jackson. He left early at buffalo. He's big as tight end any moves. Okay. He you know, I reported a couple months ago. He did not get he got a stay in school evaluation. The NFL he could have gone a grad transfer. I think there were some people who are a little skeptical of him 'cause they weren't sure. How accurate he was? And I think that was a knock a native. I think a lot of people said, oh, this could be listening another Logan Thomas where he's big he's pretty athletic. You can throw the. Heck out of the ball. But the accurate enough to be NFL quarterback. And there's a lot of skepticism there. I would like I would loved to have seen him come back for another year. Maybe even as grad transfer because I do think there was potential there. They people hadn't seen enough of them yet. I mean, look this goes back to Leach Selena himself who said, you know, and I do agree with this guy's usually don't get much more accurate. They kind of are what they are. You know, they can redefines is better and do some of those things, but our main maybe, you know, some of those things, but you talked to a lot of people who are in the quarterback development is this. They don't usually don't think you get much more accurate. And so I don't know even if he came back, I'm not saying he shouldn't have. But I don't know how much that would have been different. Well, Dave Gettleman try to prove that they're wrong. Millions and millions of dollars toward that there's some actual college football news media discuss Davos, Swinney gets a new contract. I believe on Friday, and the number just just you know, you can't see that number is not out of your head ten years. Ninety three million dollars upping, JIMBO Fisher seventy five million. Now, it's not fully guaranteed like Jim Bose's, but nine point three million a year puts him right behind saving as the number two highest paid coach in college football, your reaction. You know, if there's anybody's worth nine million dollars. You know like you. I've had this conversation is the second bus coaching college football. And he's got the program right there with the number one guy and what he's meant to that that program. I thought what was interesting about the deal is there's language about if he goes to Alabama about you know, where the buyout is. I don't think he'll follow neck saving. It wouldn't shock me. If he followed the guy. Guy who followed saving because that's home for him. But that's far stretch off. You know, he's still he's got two sons, we're playing football there and another son who's in high school, and that's pretty much all they know is Clemson. But my point on this is I think with when you're in the ACC in your Clemson, you know, you have a unique position where if he goes to Alabama, I think it's a harder job because there's there's there's other programs whether it's Georgia or LSU or Texas or certainly Auburn who are very well resource. And they're gonna throw a lot of money at football and at everything around football. And so they're committed playing at the highest level. And obviously, you know, you're gonna be measured against Nick Sabin there. So look one thing that I tried not to get into. But I just kinda like after I tweeted out of the details that I know the story was just a ton of people wait in while there's no money to pay the players, and that is a slippery slope slippery slope topic because. You know, I would have no problem with paying players. It's just the question is like how do you do it? And it's it's not not easily solved in hundred forty characters. I mean when when the day comes and I'll say win, not if the athletes start to be compensated for more than just scholarship is not gonna be they're not going to the schools, cutting them a salary the way they're cutting salary for Davos winning just not practical for a number of reasons, you know, the the model that a lot of us think they should be doing already wouldn't be very hard to implement is the Olympic model where they're being paid by outside parties for whether it's to do endorsements autograph signings to take advantage of their get why that is is something that is is thorny for the NCAA because those endorsement deals, you know, you have five star kids, you know, boosters are going to be going to the highest bidder there now, but they knew that. I mean that that's true. I don't I don't. I don't disagree that there'd be it'd be thorny. But the same schools that get the five stark roots. Now would be the ones whose boosters shell out money to get them. Then. No. Here's my thing. Is that you can make you. Okay. With would you be okay with that? With like, I mean because that would be different reality. If all of a sudden, like let's say, you know, every school has car dealers who were you know, who provide for the coaching staff or whatever most big schools do at least, you know. Let's say they were saying, you know, kids come on Fisher visits. Hey, you're gonna meet Jackson Cadillac and the dealer is gonna come out. And he's gonna go Kay. This is what you're going to get this is what your dad's gonna get this. What your high school? Don't think. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm naive. I just don't think they would it would get to that extent. The number of kit. Think you're naive. I think you're so naive on that. Well, the ghetto point where wouldn't it just wouldn't be good business for the car dealership to be doing twenty five endorsement deals a year? How many players would you say in with all move the needle to the point where like Johnny Manziel want? Even college would have gotten some sort of huge -dorsements deal. Well, let me right now two Trevor Lawrence would have huge indoors deals, but most scholars football players are not that well known to to get that kind of money. I think you are kidding yourself on this anything. Anything boosters would this is what I think would happen. I'm gonna give you a little scenario. So one thing that I was tweet about this on Thursday night was the one area that I think that the online recruiting is do better than any other area of evaluation is with D lineman. Now, these guys, and it's like you see them at some of it's unfair in one on ones in shorts and tee shirt. They have such an advantage or the offense lime. But and there's just guys who are like at Oliver's in Rashawn Gerry's index or Lawrence's are just not a lot on the earth. You know, so, but you look at those I think in the first round there were sixty linemen who were five star, guys frightening. They're all from the same class from two thousand sixteen class or maybe grow Christian Wilkins wouldn't have been he's he's older, but it was Bosa at Oliver, Rashawn, Gary Dexter Lawrence Jeffrey Simmons, and then the other one would be Christian Wilkins. And so my thing is if you're the car dealer, you're definitely gonna pay for those guys. I mean, everybody knew who those guys were I remember I did a store it. I don't know where the hell even worked back. Then when these guys were coming out of who was the biggest impact guy who was most ready to make an impact. And I think I'll at Oliver one that by talking to recruiters, I talked to a lot of these guys. I'm sorry. Like, here's an example, like biggie Marshall from USC who was a cornerback. Didn't have a great career. There wasn't like an all American even close. I think he might have made all conference or second team all conference one year, but he was a five star guy, and he's a big cornerback from southern California. Then you went to maybe the fourth or fifth round here. He would have probably been he's the guy think somebody would have paid a lot of money for. No. Yeah. The the five star guys would absolutely be the ones that they were bidding over I think we're seeing the basketball trial thing that in basketball east the already being bidding wars for these kids. They're just going on the table. So it makes more sense basketball, though, because you know, usually it's easier to predict in basketball, who's gonna be great. I mean, y Leonard's guys who kind of merge, a little later are more rare than they certainly are. And you know, the the Andre Dillard's of the world, I mean, no knocking him. But I don't think it would have been a bidding war for six five two hundred forty pound project who ends up turn out to be a first round pick. But these alignment and some of these other guys and some of these receivers, quite honestly, I think there would be a lot of them. I would say there'd be a couple hundred that they would be getting cars, and their families be getting cars came back to Davos, oh, I know everything is black and white on the internet. But you know, it is possible to simultaneously believe that the players should be getting more. And that Davo given the tremendous impact he's had on that university is worth nine million dollars a year. Grace rain are Clemson writer was able to get the. Day. You know, we published on the the full slide deck PowerPoint, whatever you wanna call it that clemson's AD did to justify this to the board. Why they should give them this big contract in the numbers. It's not just that he's won national championships. It's that, you know, the number of the amount of money they're making on season tickets since dab before he got there now has doubled the number of and this is where it gets. I think where you can start to justify this university standpoint, the number of kids across the country who are flying to go to Clemson has skyrocketed because of clemson's football success as a result when there's more applications that means you're you're getting in his resume. I mean, there was a great Wall Street Journal story about this with Alabama a couple years ago. Nick Sabin has completely transformed the profile that university. So from that standpoint that was absolutely worth nine million dollars a year to. Clemson university. You can simultaneously believe that and the players should also be paid whatever form or fashion that might be. I think make this case, I don't know fifteen years ago, or so I did a story about Mack Brown impact. He made on the economy down in round Austin, Texas. It's not just to the university. It's the whole community there even Frank beamer when he got a role in Blacksburg. I mean, new hotels got built around there because of that. And so I'm not saying now are there overpaid coaches? That are you know, the money is staggering that so many guys are making five million dollars. Plus, yes. But if you have a great coach, and I would put what Davos when he certainly done there. I would say as done if you're a great coach those guys end up being a bargain for what they've done. Yeah. I think the folly of I don't know how you avoid this the folly of college football coaching contracts is that these guys save in cal-. They absolutely deserve it. But then got all these other coaches. Butch Jones was making five million dollars a year range, Tennessee, you know, because that's the market sets. It a certain way the not only are the really accomplished guys getting paid that. But then just a higher SEC head coach. There's like a barrier entry point. So before the guys actually proven that. He's any good. You're already paying him pretty inflated amount of money. You know in that case. It's a, you know, it's we would have oh, it's a reward. He's being rewarded he's being compensated for what he the chief there. But when you hire a new coach and throw all this money at them. You're basically making a big bet and investment and sometimes that pays off and sometimes that's tens of millions of dollars down the drain. But you know, the last thing I would say is in relation to the the payers players being paid argument. You know, if that was allowed tomorrow, the extra money wouldn't go they wouldn't take the money away from data and give it to the players. They would just I mean, this is want to say this. But they would just cut the water polo team. You know, like. Most of that s surplus that when people say all the schools making a hundred fifty million dollars athletics. What are they doing with all of it while they're paying for the scholarships of all the sports that don't bring money? So if given a choice between if he said all suddenly have to choose between paying the football players or keeping the scholarships for all these not revenue sports. They're gonna pay the football players. So again, the they're not connected as much as I think people think Davos when making nine million is not a direct result of the fact that the players aren't paid anything that makes sense are unfortunately have run a time to do the mail bag this week, but send your questions to the Ottawa pottage dot com. We'll get them next week also about two and many of our media colleagues are about to descend on the desert and Phoenix. So I think the next time we mean for this podcast. We're gonna have a lot of stories to tell about all the coaches and eighties. And and other college football types that we talk with this coming week. We'll see next time. 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