Chris Underwood: The Survivor 38 Post Game Retrospective
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What's going on? Rob sister, Dino back here for our second survivor post game air view. And today, we were very lucky to talk with the winner of survivor, the edge of extinction, and that would be the one and only Chris Underwood. I've really been looking forward to this interview because so many of us didn't get to know Chris very well during the season and very excited to hear what he has to say about his experience, and his journey on this podcast. And I hope you guys are as interested as I am in what he has to say about this a wild set of circumstances that has resulted with him being the winner of survivor season. Thirty eight now in our first of these survivor postseason interviews. I spoke with Rick Devon's had a great chat with Rick went almost three hours talking with Devon's in that podcast. That's up at ROY. Rob has a website dot com. You can subscribe to the podcast feet. Rob has a website dot com slash I tunes and looking forward to getting into some more of these interviews with the cast over these next couple of weeks. Hope you guys enjoy it as well here as we are counting down the days till big brother next month. And then also the amazing race coverage ongoing here on rob has a podcast before we get to talking with Chris I will not stop for another commercial the rest of the way, but I do wanna take a moment and thank a sponsor for this podcast. Those our friends over at dole. Now, I've been looking for ways to get more vegetables into my diet. I know a lot of people may green smoothies, but only putting vegetables into my smoothies can lead them not tasting. Great. That's why I love dole fruit in veggie blends. They created amazing balance recipes of frozen fruit. And veggies. So I know I'll get a delicious. Smoothie all the work of pairing, great tasting fruits and veggies is already done for me. 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That's what you call a ham horn. Hamdard is a ham horn, rob. Did you get that in Vegas with more dog? It's actually an app. Anyone who wants to download hammered it, it comes in handy. Lots of situations. I just, you know, if you ever asked me back on just be prepared. Okay. Agree. All right. My, my intro Jess. Okay. That's, that's your effect on the soundboard. And you might just show up on a on any podcast. You might just be able to walk in, in the middle of any of these shows. Yeah, you never know me. Could be could be downstairs. Rouser well, Ono, Chris anyway. I'm really excited for this one, because I think that this is a real opportunity today to maybe get to know you better in this interview, then we got to know you in watching the show and I'm very excited to have the chance to do this with you. Yeah. I know my, my confessional kennels pretty high. Yeah. Some ready. Yeah. I'm ready to, to, to get to know you more. And I'm really excited. I'm a huge fan of our hap-. Follow not the biggest fan of oval Bloomberg over there off. They. Why why Chris one I'm like, man. That one was. Yeah. Pretty hot. Use those take. Well, I'm sure that this all requires a lot of like a cognitive dissonance on your part because you are a fan of the show. You know it really well you fan enough to be following the podcasts of it. And so you're also very excited about what you did, and what you were able to accomplish and this miraculously comeback that nobody saw coming. And so for people who don't share the part of they also necessarily being excited for you. It's a lot to wrap their heads around. Yeah. I mean as a as a fan as a player, it's such a. An amazing experience. I mean, the the fact that I was able to play that in of itself. I mean I no matter if, if our season goes down as the worst, which I don't think it is. I don't I really don't think that this is one of the worst. It's I disagree with that. But even if it was, I would still be so excited. I mean it's such a an honor to be able to play this game in so many people love it in weakened even I mean, even in the season like it just brings emotions whether tire low mum or my favorite things, is, it's just continuing to evolve and you know, it's, it's what's, it's what has kept me around watching this for so long. Well, in the words of war dog to paraphrase on your not on trial. Nothing is on trial today. We just want to hear your story of what this was all like for you. And you know, get to know exactly, you know how this. Happened more so than a raking anything over the coals today. So this is going to be a lot of fun. I'm super excited. I let's, let's have a blast sit down kind of wait. All right. So, you know, we got to know you really mostly through the interview you did with Josh in the preseason. And you came in and you really like on fire in the preseason and Josh is talked about you or the last person that he got to talk to. But you had a ton of energy really pumped up talking about Monica Culpepper. And how you're going to do it for Monica, and you did. It did it for Monica, Monica doing it for Monica. Yeah. Yeah. I came in real hot. I was excited. I mean, I was, I was jazz and I was still in. I think it's important to note in everyone who's ever applied to be on. Survivor can agree the version of yourself that, that makes it through the, the casting process is, is it is a version of yourself, but it's the fairy. Excitable version of. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a kind of larger than life character. And I have I probably would have to say that my interaction with Josh Wigger was still it was at the tail end of press day, you know. Still still feeling the, you know, the casting before the game sets in any start to get into a rhythm of, of how you how you wanna play or just come in your natural self. Can you talk a little bit about how you ended up by getting involved with survivor? I think you said that it was a show that your dad had watched, and your dad had potentially wanted to be on the show. And then you ended up sort of inheriting that, yes, I don't think my dad ever wanted to be on the show, but he was actually my dad's from Panama like he was born in Panama grew up in the canal zone in when survivor started Aaron I mean within the first ten seasons twelve season. There were several locations in, in Panama in. So it was kind of something that was exciting. You know, a new fund in on my gosh, there's a show in its invented. Filming in? It's a United States show. You know, it's fun. It's new, it's play the season there. You played there. Yeah. In, in all stars in so breathe yet. Yeah. I if on any other season we where was my edge of extinction, right? Yeah. They hadn't developed twist yet. It wasn't the thing. But you had a couple, they had a couple of the first time they had outcast was in Panama, yet note. The, so they I mean, that's where my family started started watching when I was when I was a, we'd add, I actually stopped, I did watch two months in like late into high school. In got into college. You know, saw it on some streaming ended his picked it up again. It was like, oh my gosh. Like this thing. Still going on in this was. I mean it was like twenty twenty six twenty four twenty five twenty six seventy kind of that era. End. Just watch it during a you know, after studying for exams and stuff when I graduated from college at didn't really know what to do. I just decided I was pretty wanted to do something big in kind of had no planned. So when you have no plan, you have no expectations or like outside pressure, naturally. You just applied beyond reality television shows that governed. Yeah. Yes. I applied. And that was my first my first video was, like, July of twenty fifteen but for years, okay? So. You've been through the casting process, a couple of is this the first time you ever heard back. No, the first time ever back was in was back in twenty fifteen believe that they were casting for millennials gen-x in. If you go I pretty sure my first video ever is still on YouTube. All right. That's an Easter egg for people to go from, that's an egg out there in. I remember seeing Jay from millennials genetic I saw him. I kinda said, you know, that's, that's probably that's the guy that I would they were problem with Cassie from because I had I had long curly hair. I mean had an afro. I've, I've seen pictures of you. Yeah. So I had the man bun thing going on in the, you know, the kind of wild. Crazy guy. Got got a few phone calls, but never made it to LA and then but getting the phone call kind of set it in my mind. I was like I'm getting on the damn show why. I don't know how many videos I'm gonna have to send in, but I'm getting on the show it on. Yeah. Just a few years in a lot of these stories, you know, you kind of they're looking for something, but they're kind of looking for the development of personal most bet there's some people out there that have applying. For three four or five years. There are better option now than they were, you know, four or five years ago. And I just think I was one of those people that, you know, the that matured into something that they could use a wasn't as, as fairly as rough around the edges those morning. You know, put together in sales manager, you know, good good career but still look into you know to, to live out the survivor experience in in. So I got the got the calls I was actually a Gavin Lauren Aurora the mall or our group. So he went out to LA kind of all the same time. Okay. So you get the call you're going out there for the season thirty eight what was your prep like watching a lot of survivor. I've binge-watch swatch. I binge watch survivor, like crazy and actually read a few books there's a couple survivor book. Out there. Yeah. Like counts like armchair, how to win the survivor from like armchair, something like that cyber at some books in practice. Fire John Young. I've always useful was there anything from the book that was useful a lot of psychology stuff it. I'm trying to remember some of the key points. I actually I highlighted so much in that book. But yet a lot of just understanding that survivor in itself is is a social game like it's not he will say it's, it's really it's a physical game. It is a strategic game but it's it's a social game. I mean, you, you have to have social awareness. I think the best players are socially aware of it talked about is, is understanding different strategies in in game play and what to look for another players whatnot. Look for just stuff like that. So do you feel like that? Maybe you had too much of this stuff in your head. When you come in talking about trying to play this perfect game. Like what was it overkill? Did you prep too much? Yeah. I over I over prepared I psyched myself out. I mean I the first few days of the game I didn't feel I didn't feel like myself because I was trying really hard to play to play a certain version of myself and. It wasn't bad. I was just I was very low key, like I was quiet and I was I was a hard worker around camp. Really? I mean I did not want to strategize too much. I was just kind of the, the, the meat the meat guy, you know, like just kind of vanilla end. What are you reading the meat guy just like Canada meaty like just the meat potatoes like basic? You know, he's going to help us with challenges. He's gonna help build a shelter. You know he doesn't have much of a game play we can probably use him as a number because he's not going to be someone who's seeming applauding in strategizing. And you know, I don't know if it, it, it, it's hard to say, whether it helped her hurt, because it will probably get into it, the kind of the, the fork between Wardag in myself in early is the game. But it. Yeah. It was just something where I was trying really, really hard to, to hide certain parts of my personality. I think that a good way to play on survivor is to have have a plan, but also be natural. You know, like if you're maybe Dino, tone it down, if you're really, like if you're really out there. But again, it's a social game in people can pick up on whether someone's being natural or, or something's being forced, Chris were you concerned a coming into the game of that? Okay. Well, people are gonna look at me as a physical threat, and get rid of me, and then I need to alter my personality because I want to somehow be able to change up the perception of me. Yeah. Originally going into it. I decided to I did have a certification in in being dive master. And I worked on boats when I was in. College. For some reason, I thought that was a better strategy to tell people that I'm right. Covert. Be regular sales sales rapper you were worried salesman was going to be a bigger strike against you. Then dive instructor. Yeah, I don't know what the logic was there, at least in my mind, what I was what I was going for is I had a feeling like I'd, I'd make it to at least emerge, you know with with group challenges if you win. No one goes home. You know. And it's, it's one of the reason why Joe has is so good in wide. Also Joe gets voted out. You know as soon as Merck's hits by original plan was to was to play hard really hard in challenges. We didn't have to go to any travel councils in, you know, maybe get closer to the merge something happened. I don't know just get like lose all my energy, just fall can fall away to does not, I guess to be perceived as. Not so big of a threat. Yeah. At least make it a few votes by then, hopefully, a strong alliance in enshrouded just pull the pull all of those things out of giant aga- tricks, that known really knew about Ryan from sales side. But Mike Tyson in a blood versus water, where that with, with Monica Culpepper where he had some sort of an injury to his shoulder. But he kind of milked it. Yeah. Yeah. I was I I'm pretty sure my game plan was to. A hurt shoulder about day v fourteen fifty. Okay. So you end up on the boat and they're going to bring in these returning players and you're going to be there with David Wright, and Kelly went where did you have any thoughts about those two in particular coming into the game? Yeah. When I saw when I saw Kelly, I was probably the most scared of Kelly because she's so good. I mean she's she's a great player and she's she's three rolling in in David he was a great player as well. But I mean the reason why he made it farther know in this game. Ironically, kill him last the longest as a returner in was the, the first return of being targeted, but David was. More inviting, you know, more jovial it's it was a part of his his game plan. Mean he's just a likable guy Kelly, Kelly's great to. She's, she's really good. Like she's kind of almost intimidating as a as a as a player in as a person. I mean, she's it takes a second to kind of it's hard. She's very hard to read. So whenever I solve Iran, our tribe. I was like oh, you know, this is gonna be tough. Would you prefer getting Joan Aubrey? Oh, yeah. Of course, a Joseph Joseph Joseph great meet shield yellow Joe would have been the perfect meal out of loved to have had Joe on our tribe, because he was would have played the, the meat she'll flawlessly, you know. End. I, I thought we had a pretty good chance in the beginning at I didn't realize that we were going to be so bad. Yeah. In on day one, you know, as it played out, Monaco, money, gut careened. We got. Yeah. That was very Devon's asked the way that you said that you guys are getting blade. Yes. All right. So you're part of this historic losing tribe here on, on mono, but the, the focus of everything that's going on is with rim in those first couple of days in the first episode from our perspective. Well, what was your relationship like with rain? I had a decent relationship with bream. I never really connected with her on a personal level in the first couple of days. I mean we were. We were amicable there was nothing that I felt like she had done when she moved move this stuff on the around on the beach. Yeah, yeah. It was at that point. I mean, the kind of the first rule of if you wanna last the first vote don't do anything the dinner. They're your name out there, like don't even rock the boat the slightest. And so, you know, when we lost our first immunity John's just something as simple as like, you know, moving people with things around without asking in the, you know, perceived to not be as strong in the in the challenge that was enough. Right. So I didn't necessarily feel the need to, to rally behind her and save her. Because I was already, you know, in the majority at that time, beginning to gain. There's nothing like nothing against ream. It was it was the move. The there's got to be the one person that's going to go home. And the Rene's name had been thrown out there. I you know, young player in my position you don't you don't try to save you don't try to save him if they're not. If you don't see them as a part of your your, your plan moving forward. So I want a in. Operate questions from the listeners as we go through this. And this is one from Felipe Shimon, who says Josh Wigley said in the first wiggle room and now was the trouble council that he was there at in the first episode Josh had said that you played that tribal brilliantly. Can you go into more detail about that? And knowing about your journey a why do you think that they didn't highlight that from the first tribal council? Now, the one moment that I recall, and I, I was watching this to prepare that you were the one who had said about ream when she was talking about how, you know, if there's anything that anybody saying me or anybody wants to say anything, and you had said, well, you know, I think that at times, you, you can be a bit much. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely in tribal council. It's kind of. It's one of those things or if you can, if you can get someone else to kinda like overstep their bounds a little bit, you know, it takes the heat off of of you end. So I it was. Yeah, it was kind of one of those. Subtle like side remarks, I guess with the United Senate with a smile on my face. You know, it was a it wasn't a malicious, if you will. But it was kind of something where I if I may be mentioned like, Raymond. I don't have anything against you, you know, I like you. But there, there may or may not be other people that you just rubbed the wrong way when can't read it on that in, in reinserted the simmer. You know, she she got angrier. I try not to, to, to insert myself too much. But yeah kinda wanted to see where where it would go from there. Yeah. And she wanted to know are sitting who, who thinks that on the bit much and wore dog all. All. I think you could be a bit much. Yes. Decided to speak up surprise, not, not at all. Not not at all that surprise that were felt like felt the need to let her know how he felt. Fund drive will counsel. I mean sorry, my love reading reams. Great. We all I was just I was, I was finally coming around on you. I'm probably going to get a text going to get a text after this seriously. Dude. You know what you? You. Okay. So Reem is, is off to the edge of extinction. You'll you'll you'll see her shortly she's off. And now we come back, and this is a these these next two votes very important. Of course that you didn't make the decision on the vote where you ultimately went home, but this vote where Keith went home that I think this is a really important vote in terms of how your fate, ultimately is going to go this first time around in the game. And so you guys are gonna end up being headed back to tribal council again. And there's a lot of the focus on Keith, and there is a decision has to be made of shoe. We vote out Keith or should we vote out Kelly wet worth at this vote. And I hit thought in the first time through that when Keith comes to you and says, Chris. You're my guy. I'm never gonna turn my back on you. I'm loyal to you that I thought that that seemed like a really good opportunity for you to potentially go with the voting voting out Kelly side of things. But maybe the decision ultimately wasn't yours. So how, how did that all go down note to future survivor players if you're going to align with someone align with the players that can swim? Yes. Okay. So it was a mistake. You're saying to be aligned with Keith in the first place. Yeah. I mean it wasn't. I wanted to save Keith. I thought key there's a couple of things that the couple of things that happened in that. I once we lost our second immunity challenge. The, the heat was on was on Keith because of his his challenge performance. I stayed back to kind of helps eat up the process in his inability to swim in. Even in the snakes when we when we have to deliver the snake, under the that whatever contraption it was. You know, Keith kind of like rolling. You know, he's not of the hand on so people were mad at. People are people were mad at Keith. And when we when we go back to the beach, it just didn't feel like the next move. We still we still want to keep the tribes strong. It is it is a potentially good option to get Kelly out. But the, the plan was to was to still have a strong tribe, because if we just kept a strong drive and still headed we sell the shot with even with Keith outlook. We still had a shot. At least we thought of winning a challenge. It didn't really show this, but Keith Keith kind of shot himself in the foot that day the, the conversation that he had with me. I did want to save him. But come to find out, you know, he he had the same conversation with several people in sort of isolated himself. He was scrambling in my scrambling. He didn't he didn't hunker down in kind of come to just one group. He he had the same dialogue. You know with with every person kind of the that augury augury clip rate. Let's I just want to have an open now going to have an open dialogue, but it was more like a, you're my guy, you're my girl to the people in that got around end myself in Rick, David August Kelly, Lauren examined in conversation with everyone else. It's he's not going to really fit into that in the best way in so. So as much as I would've liked to have had heath in, in a group where we could have moved forward, it the very least as a number. It just didn't it just didn't work out, you know, Monaco Monte struggled? They struggled hard in the challenges in the beginning. We just wanted to win. We just wanted to get re just wanted one when we, we couldn't get, so it wasn't really your decision because the episode presented it like, you know, your sort of the swing vote. And then you talked to war dog and war war dog is saying, like, no, let's you know, let's, let's not do that. Let's you know, stick, let's keep Kelly around, and then because they don't have your vote. That's why Keith doesn't get voted out. Yeah. Yeah. And this is something that's really interesting. Is is Rick, and I were actually really close like in the very beginning of the game, we were very close in an I'm so I've always tried to figure out why. That wasn't something that was shown in. Maybe looking back on it, maybe it was because if they showed us being really close like, I don't know if it would have been like, oh, you know, Chris is gonna get back in the game in the end, you know, not because they really, really wanted to preserve that, that secret. Right. But Rick and our really close in. We, we went we talked a lot. I mean him in me, the regional plan was for, for me to kind of keep tabs on Kelli ward, organ, Lauren Hewitt keep tabs on David in. We'd come back together in in. We both agreed that Kelly was a big threat. We both wanted to get Kelly out, but at that time, it just didn't feel right? It didn't feel like the right time because you still strong competitor. We needed to win. We like to we wanted to keep, we wanted to keep the tribes strong really and it between Keith in Kelly. Just didn't seem like the right time. To pull the trigger because we would have had a, a lower chance of a more difficult shot at, at beating comma if Kelly was gone Keith was in the game after that, after that performance at the challenge, which was pretty bad. Right. We decided the vote that is easy, and obvious is, is Keith in us Kelly as the as the smokescreen. Okay in hindsight, though, would it have been the better move at. And I talked about this with Rick also I don't wanna be results oriented. But for a survivor player who finds themselves in a in a similar situation, it is the right move to vote out Kelly in this spot. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that is we start breaking down the my vote out. The timing had the timing was was at that was that was that moment. I don't think getting Kelly out in keeping Keith in would have been the best option. I mean it might have been but it still you, you the. The. What you're saying. Because so many you can play so many angles at it. Yeah, he was still in and killing was out. He would have been another smokescreen most likely because because it's really easy to, to throw a name out there on the island that, that is an obvious choice. I mean that's why that's why windy was able to last so long because windy was the obvious boot. But when you have an obvious boot in everyone's in agreeance on that there's always a plan that that's behind it. Ray. Everybody's new tricky that the that the easy boot ends up being the person who's the safest almost every round almost every round beginning. Yeah. So he could have been that any could have been a number. But even at that point, the conversation he had with me. He can give me a hug. You know, we, we were kind of like making jokes like has helped everyone today, the United has had the exact same conversation with everyone today. And it was it was something where we all were just kinda like, yes. You know, he he has in. So even in terms of that being someone on your alliance. Is that someone you wanna keep around or is it someone that every everyone sees it their malleable and they can mold Keith? They can use anything go this way, he can go that way. I don't know. I don't know if it's smart to play to one align yourself with a player like that right off the bat because this one, you know, going home. All right. So Keith left EMI was mad did was there any talk about how? Salty. Keith was on in his goodbye to the tribe. Yes. There was conversation. He was eating. He was heated. Oh, girl. You guys think you're gonna win challenges. Yawn. God. In the answer. Keith is, is is, is definitively. Yes, we drafted this young or. Well, you guys would wait a reward challenge. And I think that, that was largely because of you with the slingshot. Yep. That was a good. That was a good day. We want something was was was fun. And you won the chickens. We got chickens. Yeah. Between comfort and, and chickens ironically enough. I was actually the swing vote there. I, I was the swing vote between. Rick David, Wendy end Kelly were dog at Lauren, if they wanted chickens in the night, I decided to go the chickens. Okay. Well, the gods of good TV appreciated that you decided to go with the chick dance because we got everything with Wendy in the chickens. Yes, you're making the right call. Yes, yes, you're you'll have be paid back many times over in the future. So. In, in terms of winning that reward. Do you feel like did that end up putting a big target on your back when you won the reward for the tribe possibly? Prob probably. I mean it had to have. Right. I was the next person that got loaded out. It at the same time people knew that I was strong in challenges. So again, I really think that we, we wanted to we wanted to win like it's, it's, it's hard like it, especially for someone like me. He's like, really competitive, it's hard to, to, to lose, you know, intentionally and we, we will gentlemanly were we wanted to win. Right. You know you we wanted to keep as many numbers as we could down the stretch. That's that's really that's important. I mean, cracks will start to form. But if you can keep the I mean, even look at common man, if they would have just stayed together like Notre, it would've they would've Pagon money. I mean, it would have been below out when they need. They, they didn't you know they they, they fell apart. We really wanted to stay strong so. Yeah. Winning the challenge. Yes, it it put it put a. Target probably, you know, Chris is a good challenge threat. But I kind of knew that going into that. I would be perceived as that anyway. So rise I played football in college. Pretty muscular guy like a, a knew that, that was my, my type. Right. I wasn't I. Maybe in another alternate universe. I'm Cochran you know like. Christy cochran. You know, Chris Cochran on. It's not that's not the case. They can never you know, I can never play that this Cochran you in that universal also. Yes, actually, yes, Cochran is, is me in that. He was a in the college football player. Yeah. The, the challenge the challenge beast. Yeah. Guy, he went to bunch of immunities one-season, but I digress. So all right. So you've won the reward. You guys had the chickens and now based on what we see in the episode. David Wright is feeling like okay, this is the time to strike. We could vote out Kelly Wentworth on this vote and he talks to you about this. And in the episode what we see is, you're saying, I need to talk about this with war dog, and David rights is I really don't think that's a good idea. We, we don't need him. And you said okay, but you talk to ward off and things spiral. Yes. So that's yeah. It's tricky. So I again, this doesn't didn't really show didn't really fit it fit a narrative, I was I was the closest with Rick like, but I was written was my number one and wore out was someone that I could play potentially play with. We keep me watch each other's backs, quote, unquote as, as bigger kind of shields like physical threats but the, the conversation that I had with dog and I, I didn't say, I, I can't say that you can't say anything during during the season you don't you don't comment on this type of stuff, but fish back actually had used pretty spot on. I mean, I remember reading that in a good thing he doesn't listen to Vince. It'd be like the size of like Robin, Sandra, on the island of idols yet. Well, he doesn't know this, but I actually have a. Stephen fish back on idol. Visit in my in my room. Oh gosh, though. Stephen, your man. No. So the, the that is called digression. Right. They're back on topic. So he was used right music. I don't understand how that I mean Chris played. Seemingly pretty in the middle there. And, you know, I actually I did the conversation that I had the word out was before the challenge was one. It was lost. That was something where I asked what I say, hey, you know, you still think, in Wendy non might in. He's like, no, you know, yes. Unless you tell me I'm like, I don't know, maybe killing maybe not. We can stick together and what started to happen when I realize about that was was word are. He was talking like he didn't really want to talk strategy, but he was a very aggressive player. We would soon find out that he was a very aggressive player in, in the we talked about this that's when he started to see that I was thinking about the game more than I thought that he thought I was. And if I was trying to get out his number one shield, the now that would pose that I would become a threat. I, I had that conversation with him, though, before the challenge started, and we said, no matter what we just wanna win. We really really really wanna win. And we go into the challenge in, obviously we lose again. David is as good as as much as I like the guy in he made practice puzzles may practice a million puzzles out, but the puzzle performance was was a struggle for David Wright. We should have done Rick in there, who would have known Rick rally. He didn't realize that we should've had Rick should have dinner puzzle guy. But we lost a gin in the would I didn't know behind the scenes was that Rick in David were had been approached by dog about voting meow instead of instead of Kelly from a strategic side. This is also a very, very good way to set up if you're going to set up a blindside, they this is probably the best way to do it is, you have an obvious smokes for Yemen. Obvious person. You earn a boot I e windy, right? Everyone says, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, Wendy, the new have a smokescreen, right? Yes votes windy, but will really wanna get out Kelly. Okay. We'll we'll tell everyone windy but are group's vote Kelly. If you really wanna pull off something crazy. You do a blinds. You do a double smokescreen. So John, it's not windy. It's not Kelly. It's the third. Ersan inside of that group that you're telling that person to vote, you know, it's it gets complicated. But you tell that person yes, Wendy is the obvious threat, but we really are going to get out Kelly in that person. Oh, that's a great plan. But run the plan is to get out that person if you can if you can layer vote, Yuna three dimensions deep it most likely if you're going to be able to pull it off. That's what happened. That's a really good point. And, you know, you need a you know, a plan and then you also need a really compelling, fake plan. And so for your fake plan to be compelling that it has to also look like that. There is a fake plan component to the person that you're giving a fake plan because then they need to know the, the oh, well, what's the story? Well, what, what are we telling the other people? And then then, so they feel like it's a real plan. Yeah. Exactly. I it very calm. I was trying to follow the fake. You know what you're saying there, but, yes, I agree. It is. That, that's a great way to, to pull off a blindside is, is just a double smokescreen. And yet. The, the practical way of thinking about this is you have somebody, and you're having a surprise party for them and what you wanna do. So they don't get suspect. Anything is you tell them that you're taking them to a surprise party for somebody else. And then the that makes them feel okay? Well, I'm a I'm in on planning this surprise there, less suspicious that the surprise is really for them. Correct. That's the side of it. Yeah. And even better, the person that, that is being the party. The, the original surprise party is being thrown for is saying, I want to throw a surprise party for this other person. You don't like actively is actually wanting other people to throw a surprise party for that third person. And basically, what would what he was doing is like, I want to get out killing, when like, okay, Wendy. And then it's like aren't we're gonna get out Kelly, and then it's like, no wrecks getting it out, Chris, and that's where it gets got really complicated. Because I when you look back in your where did we see risk for trae, Chris? And it's because that, that vote was was set up where it could have swung towards Kelly or towards me. And if David in Rick vote for Kelly than than were dog in Lorimer in the minority domestic reason, the minority at that point in windy, windy is still in the game in windy has not been burned. You know, three tribal councils in a row like, subsequently Rick indebted do not play from the bottom for the next four. Rick doesn't give out next because tribe, swaps changed the dynamic in David enrich don't play from the bottom for the rest of their time in the game. I mean Notley HIV it'll move. Move that I still, I still think that hindsight. Right. It was it was the move that had to happen for me to get to where I am. You know it out a million other alternatives. But just looking at where the power structure shifted, it shifted away from David, and Rick, when they when, when Rick decided to vote me out, and I think it was partially because of paranoid that David hat, I think he'd had serious paranoid that Kelly had an idol in. So the fake plan is to get Kelly out, and she's a little paranoid. But everyone's telling you, it's Chris if she has an island she's gonna play that offers self in that in the votes aren't actually going towards Kelly. They're going towards me that didn't happen. I got voted out. But I, I was shaking, I was so confused as to why that was a smart move at all in on the find out. I don't think it was I think that the, the best time to take. Out Kelly, if you're Rick, Chris, windy or. Or David is is that third vote? Yeah. And you would end up having a lot of time to talk this through with a Devon's in, in a couple of days because he's going to end up being voted out next in talking with him. And I'm sure you've talked about this previously WI with him that he just felt like that. I keep the swap was really what did you in here where if they didn't feel like the swap was coming, then maybe there's a more likelihood that they would go after Kellyanne this phone. Yeah. Yeah. We're not pitched a good. He pitched a good plan. You know, basically if Chris is still in the game and were down six nine than whatever tribe, he's on. Any of us is a minority, you know, challenge threat. So that means that if we go to try to council will be on the wrong side of that. And then. Which is a good, which is a good pitch. But I still I still think that Kelly getting voted out. Should've been the right. Move in the only reason I say that is because you look at the what followed in literally that was the, the moment that, Rick and David to come took themselves out of a power position. Right. They never or get back into power. I mean Rick is going to be fine. He's gonna make it all the way to fourth after being voted out along the way. But David is never gonna end up back in any sort of a power position in a game? Yeah. Windy is still windy. Is still that obvious vote that obvious boot. But even her you know, if the tribe switches, in changes things up at least she's got someone she can be loyal with, you know, someone actually went with the plan. That now are we thinking about this just completely wrong in has the? Jhelum swung too far. And maybe the right vote isn't you or isn't Kelly and everybody should've just stopped being so smart. And just voted that Wendy. Yeah. That, that is a probable option. What's interesting is we go back to this kind of this theory that, that every other season kind of influences the season before it. And I and I think that with us watching ghost island in how pass the play the game play was the entire season. I think we didn't think we didn't want that to happen, almost like when there was an obvious vote is like, no, that's too obvious. You know it's gonna be go down, Oregon. And we didn't want that to happen. And so you'll you guys really hated ghost island. We we've washing we're like how did those guys make it to the end like they were so dominant in just dominant dominate? There were so Dominic a Buffy. Yeah, never just they never could. Could never took shot. They never took a shot. Maybe the pitch should have just been. Hey, how about we just vote off? Wendy tonight in many the chicken after tribal council. And everybody is like I could get on board with that when you when you include the chickens. Yeah. And that, that could have happened. I mean it was. It was me Rick that decided we wanted to go with Kelly. Yeah. That morning. You know, like if it's not like the time it is time to kill me because I was afraid that Kelly's Soviet playing from the bottom that if she was in a position of, of that she would not be loyal to, to anyone butter self or or her like core. And I knew her core was gonna probably were dog in Lauren probably wasn't included in that in. So just for her ability to to navigate the game middle of the game towards the end of the game scared me from a strategic standpoint, right? But yes. If Wendy goes out where we still we still are all there. Okay. So now, Chris, you're voted out and you grab your torch. And you walk down that path. And you just talk us through your reaction to. Coming upon this sign and then a what you was going through your mind. When I when I got out I was in such a state of shock. Yeah. I walked down the path, and I walked past the sign the right. I walked past the signs. I went I went to there. I did not even look at the sign and I was told they were Chris stop. I was like, what, what, what the go back and read the sign dude? That's how that's Rian told you also read the sign to dude seriously. I didn't read this. I was in such a just a fog because I was like why how what the hell just happened that I walked past the sign? And I was actually told to, to go back. It's it's hard to explain only knows how it feels like to be blind sided to walk down that path. I walked down. I get it. I get decided notice I walked back. I saw the sign and then when I read it, it clicked a little bit. I picked up just like those guests like this is what you said, this is what you said, when, when you get out, you said, screw those guys on getting back in the boat, very remiss. Yes, I, I spend a couple of days with Reno at her her edginess just rubbed off. Genius extinction. I know. I, I mean when I when I saw it I had another opportunity I was like holy shit. You know, this Hughes, those guys suck on coming back for, for blood, like screw those guys. Watch out. You know, I was so mad. Take back to those moments is just like right now. Present. I thought this was an interesting phrase. Screw you guys. Screw those guys. I get that. I'm getting back in the boat. What, what boat the boat that took you to travel council? Yeah. The boat, you know, just the boat just the generic both. We're on a bow, and we're all just hang in. We're, we're, we're going to our little islands, you know after we jump off the big boat, and we get into the small boats back, those back in one of those bona took it was a literal boat, not like a figurative boat. Yeah. Yeah, it was a it was a literal. I'm getting I'm getting in the boat. I don't I don't remember why said that, you know, when you walk past the sign you didn't get on a boat and say, no I'm getting back in that boat. No, it wasn't. All right. So you go to the edge of extinction, and we end up seeing that you get there and reim- and Keith. We're, we're not thrilled to see you. When you showed up. I got grilled it, it was. I got roasted. I mean they like Keith is running around. I think I think I had this mean this is Rima when you first arrived at the edge of extinction. Got blindside man. I can't believe like seriously get mad at me out. And he totally blindsided caves, so that if you're in medicine, he may bring you're not gonna show here and be treated with open arms net. Thank you know. Read the sign grow if any point you wish to in your adventure, raise the sale, and pick you up, you're not gonna come in here to the freaking holiday, sorry. The edge of extinction. Very non warm. Welcome. What if read was actually receptionist at a Holiday Inn? Our bro. I know the holiday and dude, this is not it. Check out at eleven not twelve bro. Yup. All right. I know I had it was a rough go. Keith like Keith is is, is almost running around in circles, like, oh my God. I'm shocked. I am so shook Oma why does he shook I don't know. I was show. Maybe if you get him on policy why shift, but he was just he was. If she made me he made me. No. Like I knew it. He, he could not. I am so sure that he was sure my the and he was shook by you. He was shipped by seeing me like he Reims in keep the not expect to see me at all. Yeah in. That's why thought it was probably funnier like they were just like this got megamerger nego booted. Dude. Like they were freaking out there like how the basically the in game response to all the other players when they saw that I got voted out was just like my own personal welcome party on the extinction about thirty minutes, one of their like let. Miserable. And I couldn't believe you're so yeah. Yeah. But this is also in this episode where we get to see that you end up going fishing, you go, spear spearfishing and you end up catching food for Keith and rim. And it seems like that there's a little bit of a thawing here where in terms of their reception towards you. Yeah. It took a took the next ended process. And I mean I grew on at the beach. Mean night, my childhood homeless three blocks from the ocean. So I love being in the water and I needed time to myself out there. And so I just would go out in the ocean in swim snorkel and fish. And that was like my way of comments like handling it in being terms with it. And so. I never I never thought that. I if I did catch fish that. I would just keep it to myself, you don't. I don't think I just I'm it's not my. It's not my IMO in. So when I caught the fish in they were telling you about how they couldn't. The couldn't certifier for several days. Now, you know, the they had no food out there, and there was like it was really tough. I, I realized that I if I caught something, we're gonna share it, and we're gonna start the grounded. Well, there's no one here that's going to provide. So that's while as long as we're here, I'm just gonna make sure that we're, we're fed with with fish if in. And so they started to soften them like a is not as bad as we thought he was. Yeah. I can't believe it. I thought I had to clip of when you're putting a lizard on ream. And she says that she's going to drop kick you. That's also where my favorite face, I will drop kick. You do not put that thing on me. Many moments that I, I wish that I wish we had just a little more time on the edge because there was so there was so much over there so many good little little moments like that just crazy moments. But yeah, I just I one of my pastimes out there was to an I we've talked about it. We're, we're good. But like one of our pastimes. Things to do was to, to find ways to push rains buttons. Like. Every what's that? Lizard, anyway. Of foot away from her show every. Are you kidding me? I will kill you. Just to what's her twice a day for personal newsmen? I was so avoid, I think the one thing that's interesting about the edge of extinction. Is that there was no rule book in terms of what the edge of extinction was going to be in the preseason? We didn't really know how it was going to go. But I think that when you show up and then you start catching fish. I think it changed the dynamic that ended ended up staying this way, seemingly to us the viewer until the end where it wasn't necessarily Lord of the flies. It was a tribe of people that was on the edge of extinction was started a feel. I mean, it could have felt that way. I think that which why. Lord of the flies. Okay. It could've gone that, that way we, we started thinking about it that way. We didn't we didn't act on it. But, you know, the, the early days of the edge kind of like the pre merge days. They really that's where the culture of the edge of extinction began, I mean it begin with with rim begin with Keith to begin with me. And I thought you know for for couple days. You know, like if there's something where we have to go against each other isn't just easier to get these people outta here with pissed them off say, you know, screw you were really did. Yes. Everyone is on their own, like sorry, if it sucks, it sucks that you can go raise the flag and get out of here and I thought about that in I at that point, we didn't even know how many people. Back in the game and something guy if we didn't know we didn't know the we did not know the jury was was going to be a thing like it was just, just darkness, just nothingness, and we had to make do with that. I started to think. All right. If I'm gonna be here for, you know, three or four days, it's I can I would probably do my own thing. Catch fish, these people would not matter. But if we're here for a week a week and a half what if what if two people go back in the game? You know what if there's some, some sort of information swap between the edge of extinction, and the game, do I wanna be the person that everyone is mad at do? I do. Is that the culture that I want to build an inaugural. I had had long conversations about this. Like what we want the edge to be that was kind of win when Keith end windy left in rim was kind of going crazy, you know, like she would probably like emit. That if, if we didn't immidiate even show this. But, but we would we were given the information that we had made it to the jury on the night of that vote out about an hour before tribal council with, with just a with a pamphlet with a scroll, and we were crying we were so happy didn't make it didn't make the cut. We were elated like we were like in tears. We didn't know what was gonna happen. I'm pretty confident that if if if that wouldn't have happened. I'd, I really really don't know how much longer remote of lasted a high. And so we had Arina would have these dialogues about what, what is the edge, you know, like it can be it can be brutal. Like it can be ugly. It can be mean you know, people don't care as much in the game, you're not gonna like curse someone out, you could. But it's gonna it's not gonna look the same out. There, you know, you, you can get angry at people, and we kind of decided that the edge instead of being a place where we try to get people to raise the flag. We would try to keep people from raising the flag by providing in creating this, like, you know, healthier, culture. And as a result as people come in, they're going to be more open about their experience, and if they're more open about their experience, there's going to be information that's going to actually be beat. That was that was like a like a cognitive constantly that was a strategy that was intentional. And so we instead of pushing people away, we opened up, let them, let them vent, let you know, said, hey, here's, here's this, here's this, what can get you kind of pandering almost each person unless someone had beef with someone you know, like we saw with were dog in Reims. Kellyanne ream does all rain. The most everyone, but that was something intentional because we knew whoever got back in the game. The only thing they would have was was information about people in the game. And so it was, you know, it was it was a strategy was that something that helped you get through this time of thinking about the ethic sanction where there was still like strategic benefit to what you were doing and was everybody also thinking, along those lines, I would have to say that once people got a an understanding of what the edge was. They did start thinking along those lines. I mean let's let's play out someone else getting back in the game in a let's play out Aubrey getting back in the game. Or Eric getting back in the game. We all had the same amount of information. I mean, some people had a little more information than others just based on whether they wanted that or or decide. To align with certain people even on the edge of extinction. But there was only one person to get back in in. So the information kind of was something where it was understood, there was definitely different tiers of players, and I was the, the United the bottom of the tier, you know. There was a lot of strategic players. This wasn't aggressive season and multiple times. I mean I told they're they're just like if you get back in your chances of winning are like one in a million vote for you in. So for someone like you know word he had the same information as I did. But he had he naturally had more respect. Every person going in at a different Dane plan. They had a different strategy. Would, you know, when Kelly have worked with, with Rick as close as I worked with him? No, I don't. I don't think so might have but it doesn't make a lot of sense. You know, I, I was one of the only people that would have been able to work with Rick and pull it off. And so each person had their own strategy, if they did get back in, but we all had the same information. I feel like that I would ask you next about when Rick Devon's came to the edge of extinction, but I'm really at a disadvantage here because there's so much of the edge of extinction that I I don't know about. So I it's hard for me to guide you through this time on the edge of extinction. Ed, so I, I would love it. If you could just tell me a little bit about your journey on the edge of extinction, as much as you remember anything. That would be pertinent or interesting to listeners. Yeah. So the, the edge of extension was a it was a desert. It was empty it if just kind of a side note if there was one thing that I would say about this season is I, I believe that if there was more time for production to express multiple elements there were so many elements play. I mean, every time if you guys even talked about it there at one point, there was three tribes in the extinction. You know, there's essentially four tribes. How do you how do you fit the dynamics of four tribes in to a forty two minute time slot? You can't, you know, it's, it's impossible, and I believe that if there was more time for the audience to get a, a deeper perspective. You know, at least even five minutes, ten minutes. You know there was a ninety minute episode or if worth admonition continued to be like the social interactions and stuff or the clips were were put on another platform. I feel like the how people feel about it would be different because they'd have more of emotional connection to what we went through out there. And that's just that's my two cents on on the production side of the season. Like if I believe that if there was more time because it wasn't classics river. They needed more time to express what they're getting in why it was valid, why was imported worth observing right now so that to the edge. I mean it was a it was a desert. I mean there was nothing. You, you get you get tree mail in, in the game you get challenges you. You have you have things to do you have things to build like you have a shelter to fix. There's not even there's not a shelter on the edge of extinction. There's not bam. Boo. Like bamboo doesn't exist outlet sand. Spit. We were on a sand spit with planks and the, the hardest thing is like you literally feel like you're going into the that, that's tough. Like you have to be you have to have something in you to to be able to endure that I mean when Rick Devon's gets back in the game, and he's like in tears because how dare they send them back to the edge this, because the isn't emotionally empty place and it it's, it's most like it's emotional. It's difficult. It's the heart is the hardest thing that I've ever done. I have never done anything. I will never do anything harder than the edge of extinction. I mean. Unless I was like a woman in the net to compare the extinct to job. Birth got no. We're was I'm not we're not gonna last cream about that. Did you had no idea? I don't I you're right to say that Ray my, my apologies. I have no idea. It's like, but in my in my in my life, and my personal experience that was the single most difficult thing I've ever done because you have to dig, so deep. It is hard to explain in this part of the pain in criticism. Right. Is people hate this Caesar some people hate this season? For something will love the seasons people like whatever, but the people that just like it's just it's painful, because I have I have personal feelings attached to that emptiness in to be able to go through that. And then get back in the game in the do what I did put a lot more meeting in purpose on the outcome. Imagine you were somebody that was on the season. That didn't even win think about how painful that could have been. Yeah. Exactly. Right. I that's hardly dot as that's. I got I've got a million dollars you know, I'm I'm good. Like. I do not need. I don't not care, you know, like, I'm, I'm, I'm so happy with my, my survivor experience. There's literally nothing that I came ahead on, but just to go back to the extension Vegas. Follow up question with what you're talking about. Because that after you won the challenge to get back in just to talk about that for a moment. There was a long section of the episode where Jeff talked to everybody about what they got at of being on the edge of extinction. And do you feel like that? If you had not won the game where you're looking at this through the perspective of yet this was such a meaningful experience because I was able to eventually get back in, if you had lost that challenge and Joe got back into the game would the time on the edge of extinction. Still be experienced that you look back on. Hundley, I think that every person who was on the extension has two sides of that, you know, it's, it's kind of, like, you know, we're when are at your most broken self like the most broken version of yourself, any, any human could could argue like, that's where they like whether it self realization or like enlightenment or in, you know. You know, just like having a better understanding of, of who they are, or who they want to be you find that at your most broken point. And the edge of extinction broke us down to our most broken in most vulnerable point in our each in our own way that through the, the pain in through the suffering of that we found what we were looking for, because we, we had to there wasn't there wasn't anything else to find like it was the game within ourselves. And the battle the internal in mental battle, you know, I love Eric bit. You know, when he's describing the edge of extinction. That, that is why people are so fond of it, and will say with a smile and will out of the other side of the mouth said that it was the most difficult in miserable thing I've ever done. Because when you're at your most broken self us you have nowhere else to go. You, you find the things inside of you that are looking for, or that will allow you to be a better version of yourself, when you get those things back that make you feel safe or at home or peace. That is the best way to describe the as extinction. The reason everyone was so emotional because they were broken and they had nothing. When you go when you get voted out of the game you don't have you have something you. It's not like you have nothing. You get voted out. Go to Ponderosa the premiums goes on a trip and they feed you in. They give you vacation time in, you can read a new can Ryan in, you can do whatever you want to be, though. It's, it's not that fun is. I I've never been. I don't do not miss anything. I'd rather go to the extinct, extinction you you'd be in for you realize the education has nothing at all? But it least you know, you're, you're learning something about yourself. You can shut you can shut off the game. It was what I'm trying to say is when you get voted out in regular season you shut off the game. You, you compartmentalize you internalize it. You do whatever you wanna do. It may not come out. Six months later, but on the extinction. In you have to deal with it because there's nothing you, you're miserable, because you don't have sixteen hours of, of sitting with your thoughts, and there's no paper you know, there's nothing to write on, there's nothing to, to re have to literally just sit and look at the ocean, like feel the wind odor is in for me, I learned a lot. I had a lot of time to, to sit into to think about Singapore life in. I think one of the biggest things that I learned is, you know, I kind of set it in some of my might confessional. But I really tried to control a lot. You know, I was a perfectionist and the I realize this on the edge was the more like the more you try to control the less control. You have. That was something that kind of came to me is survivor, or in life in survivor end end in life. Because life is life is very life is ever changing survivors changing. They the thought that you can control it in morph it, how you want to with a million different variables that change constantly, it's, it's so unrealistic. And so for me like one thing that I learned like the more you the more you try to control the less control. You have Maynard that was something that I had to like the okay with because I wanted to play this perfect game. And I tried so hard to do that to kind of control. My destiny in biting me in the butt inside the sit there and be like okay with that. In the more that I was there, you know, I. Realized that it's not the, the, you know, the start. It's not the finish that matters. It's, it's come the process. Like it's being in the now being in the present in I wouldn't have learned that had. I not spent so much time on the edge of extinction with myself to, to be okay with the present like being okay with the now and that's this is kind of the more, I guess, more existential, you know, I feel like Spencer. Yeah. Expensive on this in this section figured call Eckhart tall. Yeah. The that was radical for me 'cause I, I'd always I'm I'm very goal oriented, like action oriented. To be able to sit back and say, like you know what's really important right now is, is feeling like the wind in feeling the having my eyes close in just kind of be peace in an unsettling place, like a very unsettling place be at peace. The okay with that being the present and learn that in when you learn that you're, you're moral. Okay with what happens in the future. And I got to a point where I was okay in content with whatever my future held like whatever happened I was willing to prepare for success. I was going to prepare for getting into the game. But if I didn't get back into the game, I wouldn't be crushed. I wouldn't be hurt me upset. So the pressure that I was putting myself in the beginning of the game actually went away. I even had it in the merge challenge the pressure that I felt came out kind of. Showed himself in this, the sense that my hands were shaky in my ball, almost dropped even with the not in the challenge. I got the top in my ball, dropped it was. The last stretch there was pressure that I felt that I put myself that caused the ball to drought. If I had not had any pressure in my hands were calm in my heart, was my heart rate was was low the would have been able to navigate that ball in the in the whole. I remember that very vividly. And I said, you know, the next time anything happens like this again. I'm gonna just like control. Like, I'm just going to be peace for the outcome. Whatever happens happens. Don't put the pressure on yourself. If you put too much pressure yourself, you're gonna lose, and that kind of is why I was able to win that challenge. I really believe that because I knew that Joe was putting the lot of pressure on himself to succeed in air was putting a lot of pressure in Kelly. I just saw it in their faces. They were so determined to win. And I remember looking at them in the night, kind of moment of self reflections at, you know what? I'm okay if lose it was not winning because I know that I've, I'm gonna come out of this, a different person like a changed person that to me is, is I'm, I'm content with that. In. So when I got into the challenge I was fifth United. I wasn't first second third fourth to the to the the maze. Maybe third fourth fourth either fourth or fifth but. Mind, I was like a full ball behind, and I just remember smiling and I was so calm. I just felt like a free throw shooter stepping up to just to make shot in a stadium where everyone is watching in it's do or die literally, but these professional athletes that just will shit and the is almost like there's no there's no pressure. They don't feel it, and I felt no pressure. And when the ball sunk, I kind of came out of that, that days, if you will in. That's why was so in shock in looked at Joan as like I did it. I did it, and it was the most exuberant moment because I knew that, that the eggs, the lessons that I learned sitting myself on the edge is paid like pave the way for my success in the future because I was so into the present. In was something that I would not have learned about myself or would even be something that I can look back on finally, now if I didn't have the emptiness in the nothing of the edge in the broken of the edge to kind of come out of that, and the, with the theme in the twist in the, the logo being the Phoenix, you know, never referred to that. Like I would not have been able to experience that self realization that in that moment without it the edge literally prepared me for the rest of the game, not because I received information or had time to strategize was really because I, I learned to let go of control to be in the present to understand that life is changing a million miles, a second around you, but you don't have to you can kind of look in observing moment by moment, and make micro judgments. Based on that. And in the last ones, just trust your gut in live with no regrets, like don't, don't have regrets in played big go Hart be came with swinging striking out in don't put pressure off against the hit the ball, just do it. And that's part why I feel like the moves were impressive was because I was living with regret like in the game. You know given a second chance in Rick's experienced the same thing. You know you you play with with house money in it helps you know how the game that you play in that, that would have naturally offically been more difficult had not been voted out, right? Because I was would have been trying really hard to, to stay within control estate inside my lane. Just one more vote will vote will vote, so weird like I don't know if it's exited the right way, but just kind of outside in thinking. Outside of the box. You know, concept of how to play the game is you have to be able to understand that the game of survivor is, is a game that you cannot control with millions of variables that you cannot plan for in, if you try to, you will likely fail, but are able to adapt in kind of turn on the swivel shifts, and let go the outcome. Let go of winning in by winning clear that pressure you're more in tune with how other people are perceiving. What's going on the self-awareness kind of gets heightened? And if you can stay really calm, cool and collective and under pressure. Other people will feel that they trust you more. They understand that there's something a little bit different, you know, they're not you're not as, as, as, as a volatile and it will it will directly affect how you're perceived. Again, playing her item for me had I been kind of the, you know, volatile in Italy's things I knew I needed to do in. It was the for the sake of it like the manipulation of what I knew she needed when I needed, but I feel like part of my Immelt was just because I was okay with whatever happened. I was I was able to take that swinging in not me afraid, you know, because if I got voted out, you know, whatever but yet that long to wrap it all up, like that's that was the edge. It was just it was time to figure out who the hell you were in what you wanted to be. I was thinking about what you're talking about today as I was a reviewing to get ready to do this interview. And something that Jeff says a lot in like these different. I one outs that he tells the contestants that they should play like it's their second time where don't. Don't play like, it's your first time like your tight you wanna play like, it's your second time you've already had the experience of survivor, but now really played a win. And this is something that I've talked to a number of the successful players about where, you know, if you lose you lose, but it's very hard to win without doing things that don't give you a chance to always lose. If you play not to lose, then that's rarely successful way to win the game. Yeah, I agree. I mean I agree with that. It's, it's, it's, it's kind of more of a spacial concept. You know, it's not as linear, it's not inside the box thinking is outside the box thinking, in the people that, that do that in have developed that revenue understanding of that. Typically do a lot better in interviewer, especially now I think that you could play not to lose and win in early days. But I really think the game is structured now where you, you can't play not to lose and win. What negatives you cannot play not to lose in win. So what you're saying in play to lose win. Well, you're not playing to lose. You can play you can play you can play a game where losing isn't like the be all or your taking. Year you give yourself permission to take bigger chances. You can't play scared and at the end or or it's a paraphrase, the former of my New York Jets that you play to win the game. Hello. That's it. Okay. Yes, you have to you have to take swings. You, you have to take swathes you have to be okay with, with taking those Vic swings. And if you do it's, it's gonna pay off in, in, if it doesn't. That's okay. Like that's the game. Yeah. But link scared is it's becoming. It's less less respected. Yeah. That's the right point where you can take the big swing and lose, and you'll be celebrated. But now on survivor. The worst you could be is the person who didn't take the swing at all. Whether it was successful or not, correct. Yeah yeah, we're, we're at that point in the game where that's, that's what that's during members are thinking, okay. Chris, I, I want to answer this question from Alex wilpon, how much of the experience on the edge of extinction was filmed. It'd feel like the same amount of time as when you were in the game, proper or was it less? And this is. Something that I've thought about myself, there are. On. You can only win someone's like sitting in looking out in the ocean. You can only get seventy shots that person's looking for, like, you know, for like an extended period of time. Yeah. So there are. They inside the game. You want to catch everything you want everything when there's a kind of a known thing that there's no advantages that are to be found. There's no. No, no activity happening on the edge of extinction. Right. That actually why not know everyone doesn't get, you know much. It's not covered the as much as when the, the game Propper's happening. Yeah, there's always there is always, there's always activity. You're filming around the base. Kim, you know, the center of the edge of extinction around the fire, where people gather there is. It's, it's even even survivor the proper if someone goes in wants to walk up the beach the differences, if someone goes to walk up the beach, even if they're going to walk up the beach in survivor, proper, there's that, that needs to be a film because there might be something in survivor proper that, that person may stumble across fine the when there's the extinction. There's nothing except for. When you get a message in auto on. You have a specific thing to find there is nothing. Right. So there's not as much filming because they're not as concerned about emiid unless there's like a crazy. It's like we got everything. When you're there wasn't out there, you know, it's, it's just more is more empty Christo. No on a similar note. When you read your letter in the ocean. Is that is that your idea of, hey, that rock in the middle of the ocean? Looks like a good place to read my letter to myself. Yeah, yeah. Thirty four days in and I see a rock three hundred yards. No way. I I'm feeling really good today. Okay. So maybe not maybe not your idea, go sit on the rock because it was a great shot. Beautiful shot. It was. Beautiful shot heroic shot. Great great shot Hanna Shapiro. Thank you for over a thousand likes. Yes. That was that had some serious traction. They're the same you for Leany being the face of, of one of your more famous tweets. I love that. Those beautiful beautiful crafted. Chris, can you get into a little bit about a win the maps, come, and there is the discussion and I talked about this with Rick Devon's about how you guys are gonna as a group, go off, and look at these maps, and see what's up there? But then key goes off on his own, and it looks like that there's a bit of a tussle between you and Keith. That was a funded. Yeah. We, we had. Again, there's no rules on the extinction rate. Nothing's outright, except for the fact that you're with your living with a group of people that are trying to form some sort of civil society. Yeah. Where rules aren't official, but they're they're established right? It's the it's the gang rules like you do this. You don't do this. And it was kinda decided we're gonna go look up together. We're gonna see what we can find. And when he. Setting to get water in walked up the up the beach he was. I mean he was gone for five in the funny thing was, we didn't have any, we've not had any formation practice. So it wasn't a reason for us to question. Why he was gone for five minutes, but we realize. Three yards. Looking for this globe? We're just kind of super heads like, oh my gosh. Are you kidding me? Are you serious Keith? All right. Well, let's go, let's go get keep. Let's chase it. So he he went up to be. We decided to we hauled tail we rented to try to catch him. And yeah, I mean you don't blame him. You know, needs plan off the only the only thing is it was in a stabbed rule that we didn't weren't gonna go do that in the knee went to do that. And so we were mad at him because we, we all read that we will Nate. None of us take in, you know, in unfair advantage against any other person because we were living together and had to like be with each other. And when he did that yet it was, it caused a lot of like distance in some some like frustrating tot. It started to the feathers were getting ruffled for Russell's ruffled Russell Russell hands. And so. You got the thing to practice practice every morning. Was it useful at all? Did you pick up any time in that challenge? From the thing you got the practice with no. No. Most useless useless. Twined in. We're not going to tell you really what to do with it, but just do the do things with it just whatever you're gonna do do it. We were like trying to this ladder. Is this something? They can't be you just tied together. It's got to be more complicated than that of the just we tied together like they could just they could just get in one to each of us because you can just make that out of random material on the beach in it also gonna practice advantage. There wasn't anything that was like unique to, to, to the essence of what it was yet person essentially saw it, and then made their own breakfast advantages that we're all the same. I just had the official practice advantage. So no, it did not help at all any Aubrey, actually got to the key. I in that challenge. And she just reached long. I mean we, we tied four four sections and she tied three in reached in got it. So it was pretty useless but yeah, they're trying to do now on the other side of the advantage. Disadvantage, coin Keith is going to get the advantage dreamed did not give it to him, Chris. Okay. He touched it. Lille leave it alone. Why, why Irene would not give it to him? Chris K to him seriously. She was she was fired up yacht for sure. Yeah. That was that was we talked about this at the finale that she's she did not give it to him. He touched it, okay. Yeah. They. What we have been searching. The funniest thing is we've been searching for like an hour and an hour and a half. And Rick was the closest to it in terms of, of intentional searching where he was looking at the mass he dug about four feet deep on the mass night. Join them in try to dig around. We didn't find it in Keith in Reamer are basically hungry. So I say you guys go you go on that side look for some clams. I'm gonna look on this side of the beach, or some clams, as they won't even. They wouldn't even looking for it. They kind of stumbled across as they're searching for, for giant see claims as we solve. So, so perfectly you what's that, dude? Walk over. And they both reach for it at the same time, Keith grabs it. I mean, in Ricker just looking at them like, you know, Reims yelling keys found that kids found that are you serious? Laughing like ring did you give that to him? Yeah. And then when it doesn't show just like a barrage of curse words for the. Yeah. That's another great moment from the Edrich sanction. I wish there were more moments that, that you guys were able to see. So funny, Chris, it seems like that after that, I mean, other than Riemann more dog that feels like that, that's like the last big blow up that we got to see on the edge of extinction. And I guess I'm wondering now, you said that Aubrey was really integral in sort of like establishing what the edge of extinction was going to alternately, be Keith is not going to be there, too much. So is it more that Aubrey has you really sort of figured out, what this is or does Keith leaving is he less of somebody who has beef with you and other people that are there? So why does it seem like there's less fighting from this point on? Well, first of all the Keith and I made up pretty pretty pretty intimately emotionally when he made the decision to leave. I was actually pretty sad. He read it. He's incredible amazing creative. I mean he's a poet, he, he writes, beautiful stuff in written word, poetry, recited in a very animated way like it was emotional and actually was crying on Ling housing tears. We were like hug, you love the cruise we were seriously like on. We were good. We were on good terms would he left? I think the dynamic shifted a little bit me. Aubrey were buddy, buddy. We were close rain didn't really have anyone to parents like she was she stepped so easily in so naturally into that motherly role when there wasn't anyone to really like a mother to show. She kind of loosened up she wasn't. She wasn't as, as vitual wasn't as she was just kind of her own self. She was just being rain without. Having to fit into like, the, the role that she would have in real life. And once that kind of factor was taken out, it was a lot easier in. We still would snap at each other sometimes. But it it wasn't as bad in once we once we got that second chance of we all really made up in the first sequence of the extinction after the challenge, we all saw it in the finale, but there was another version of that, that it happened with Aubrey, myself, windy, and Keith ream in so we'd come been through that emotional rollercoaster than coming on the other side were grateful for the experience with everyone then given a second chance to get back in the game. It wasn't as it wasn't as a as a Gresley. It wasn't as as, as angry because we'd all really. Come to terms with our experience in come to terms with forgetting each other, and we're grateful for the opportunity. So even the, the blind set of getting another chance come lifted ease the spirits in once we got back. There was a clear line in the sand between who was willing to stay longer who wasn't and reels. Right on middle removes on the fence, but she decided to stay. So when Rick Devon's gets back into the game, what was that like for you as somebody, you were close with Rick you wanted this shot. Rick gets back in. And then I'm assuming that you guys thought that the edge of extinction was going to be over after you guys played the challenge. What was it? What was it like then finding out that you were going to go back to the edge of extinction? Yes. So Rick getting back into the game was so great. I mean, we, we really mended our bonds on the edge of extinction. We came together, you know there's been there. There's some talk going around. He was my island husband you don't. We would spend a lot of times, I heard, you guys got married. We got married. Yeah. We got married. We, we had the whole ceremony. You know, we already did a great job. And we made amends on our on our original broken alliance, and had a lot of fun, kind of repairing that and I kind of told him I was like, if we both get back in, like, I don't I really don't know if I can trust you. But I forgive you, like I'm, I'm okay with what you did. And I don't I don't think you should go to me out why we're both sitting here, but I forgive you in. I love you in in. We're gonna try to dig dig deep to, to stay sane here. And so when he got back into the game I was really, really happy for him. I, I actually made we would one of the things we would do is, is kind of, like make the coconut bowls in spend a lot of time. We getting making rice bowls out of these out of the dry coconut husk and the shell of it, and I gave him my bowl like here's my bowl, it's been hours making second in his bag. So I thought we were doing, you know, I was happened. He got back in and then Mia knob you're cracking jokes air to get ready to get drunk. We're worse than in the next three weeks together. So when we had that second chance I mean, it was like, oh my gosh, the feeling of, of excitement and then the feeling of like completes just despair like, oh my gosh. Are we really going back to that godforsaken place and you see it on my face? Like if you go back on that episode, I'm raising my hand but it's almost like I'm begrudgingly raising my hand. Like you gotta be kidding me. Of course. I'm gonna go back my hands up in the air. But this is going to suck. And so we, we got back in Amelie. You know, Wendy said guys, I, I can't do this. I'm totally happy with raising the sale right now. And then keep it was like I can't believe I'm doing this. But I'm good. I'm ready to raise the sale. Like I've had my adventure. I cannot do this anymore. And we were gonna stay till you know, till the freaking out. No, the apocalypse, we knew we were there. We were there Aubrey, and we re might I wasn't sure about, but she stuck it out. She's such a she was a warrior. Yeah. All right. So is there anything else that we need to know about the edge of extinction? No, no. For in terms of, like of, in terms of progressing, like moving the story forward now, was just in terms of helping us understand what it was like, because I feel like that we saw a lot of life on the edge in the pre merge. And we didn't see a time in the post merge. And there were entire episodes where we didn't even see anything from the edge of extinction. And in my mind, I'm wondering did it get easier on the edge of extinction. When there was more people because there was more stuff to do more conversations to have more people to help with the work that needed to get done. Yeah. It got it got easier. Once once people were were there. There was there was more jovial lighter kind of, once we accepted that, like this place to come in. You can you can do what you wanna do. He'll you can give us information. You know, like we're gonna whoever's gig back in they're going to use it. You can say whatever you want to say, one of the things that Eric did. This was actually pretty pretty big in it. Kind of became. Yeah. It was. It was it was kind of what, what we needed was. Eric being the great guy that he is. You know he at the in the night like the sunset in the sun was going down right doing down. He'd have this rock garden. And he would throw at the end of every day would throw this rock like into as far as condition like one day down, you know, and in order to keep everyone spirits up, it would kind of like starve in starting to today was a good day. The icon, some fish ream had some, you know, had some great conversations with Julia and a known killed each. Other today today was pretty good day. You don't pass the next person. They tell me like, I, I sat a lot spend a lot of time on the on the beach. It I was really sad. But I'm glad that were all here like helping each other out today was a good day gift to the toss it we do that, for ten days became a going away. Like, like, thank you for the day being over because the it's so boring, stink, you we have one less day to spend on the sand spit. But it was also like kind of healing for each each person, so that in the sense of, of why I mean, I think it would have been the second half would have still been good because, you know, me Joe, like grew grew. Pretty pretty close Joe Aubrey myself since he was the first merge boot. Like we were pretty tight. There was some really funny moments that were never shown an we would we would do fee, you know, in, in kind of get crazy, like you guys a definite loosen your minds love it. You're, you're acting really weird. But it never showed an I just think it was because at that point, they were focused on really like explaining the game. But the overall vibe of the edge got less less aggressive. Arrived. 'cause there was more things to do. Like you said people to see chess. Go home stuff reams, hold me. She was a grand master at chess. Yes. She did pretty good. Yeah. So let me ask you about the survey shin that I've seen. And you tell me if there's anything to this it looked like to me of the returning players. It seemed like that Aubrey Joe and Kelly hit it off and David was less with them in terms of the group of returning players. Is that a correct perception? Yes. Yeah. Aubrey Joe pretty pretty tight. David would hang around the, the fire more. I don't think there was I don't think there was any like any bitterness. There wasn't any like anchoring thing. I just think that because Aubrey in Joe started out together on, on the original comedy that when they got together, it was more it was easier. He was the crab catching master. I mean he, he would just go out and bring back like ten crabs and their mind. You the crabs in feeding, they're not like not like stone grabbed buffet like these, these guys are basically to fix but it was something, you know, something to do. And so we would he would be like the crab catching master, he'd go out. We would have pretty pretty good conversation. Pretty good dialogue, but I don't think there's anything like David. And in Kelly or David, Joe Aubrey had anything against one another the relationship started to kind of form in little pods once we're on the edge talk to me about when you guys would go to these tribal councils in as the jury would that just be sort of like that. You guys went to the movies, and then spend the next entire day. Talking about everything that happened at the tribal council. Was it the? The talk of the edge of extinction. Yeah, the jury would like tribal council was moving. I mean it there was so much energy around it. We were so excited to get off the, the island in do something else that, that night, it was just all that we wanted to talk about the next day. And as more people got in they, they would figure out, you know, 'cause people talk you know, they would figure out who was playing what game who wasn't based on relationships you kind of compare notes if you will on how games aligning in playing out. And so we, we had we had we had time to kind of dissect what was going on? I will do you feel was this a big weapon for you, in terms of knowing, what the jury wanted to hear when you had the chance to argue your case in front of the jury. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, it was because I, I knew that I know like, here's a here's a difficult thing. Rob is I literally had such a like small chance of winning the game, even outback, and people were literally like dude, you will have to play the most perfect game for you to get our vote because there's you just don't have you just don't have enough like where what you have. And so for me like at least knowing that, like, I knew that I had to, I had to make contact every single time and for other people would have been easier. You know, if if, if David goes out and comes back in, like it's easier for him to plead his. All of the other OG, those Ron, those players had something and so it was, it was easier to get the understanding of how they were thinking, but it wasn't necessarily something where it was some sort of secret. I mean based on if you if you were aware in our season just in regular game played you saw that they were big players making aggressive moves getting voted out game respects game. That's something that we're not would always is a game respects in, like you have to if you want to earn a vote on someone who got voted out, because they were playing hard than you have to play hard. You have to make the incident. I played hard be. That's what the jury was. You didn't have to sit on the jury to know that that's what the jury wanted you, if you had if you had understanding or context of how the votes were going and how each travel council was like really excited citing in was was. Was just kind of big it just epic travel councils. Then you knew that that's what the jury was reward at in whoever the, the final three was, and it was the jury of pilots. Yes. It was a jury of pilots this season. It would a jury of pilots. Yeah. Can you talk about a little bit of some of the discussion that was had in terms of okay if one of us gets back into the game this is the type of game that needs to be played specifically. Are you talking about for me, personally, or in terms of? Discussions that you were having with the people on the edge of extinction of. Okay. Here's the game plan of if one of us gets back in this is what we should do. Yeah. You have nothing else. You have nothing else to do. But to kind of think through what, what you're going to do who you're going to align with I was probably. I mean other than David I was probably one of the only people that was like, I'm, I'm probably align with brick because we hadn't close, we had a close bond. You know, that, that was something that I that I knew going in that I had built a decent enough relationship. And I know that might time with Rick hit kind of influence his vein when he got back into the game that I knew that's who I was going to have the best chance of the wide with that wasn't the case for everybody. There was other there was other pods twos or threes that looked different for each player. But yes, we talked about it, and we said, you know, that might work that may not work that you're only shot like you don't have another choice there. That was those conversations were were going on to whoever to ever returned. But again, you, let's say let's say Lauren, you know, doesn't play her idol rate for me even even if I make it to the end. It's, it's just harder for me. Me to plead my case like I had to execute kind of high risk like high level maneuvers to, to get the respect that was some there. Like there's no I mean I didn't even talk about that. That particular move with, with other people. Like I just knew that, that's, like, if that's something that I, I need to be able to do that. What I did know is I needed to lose. That's the only thing I really knew going into it was needed to lose in the term of challenges. Like, I, I knew that if I won there was people who were on the jersey, this out Gresley strategically that the jury was thinking they basically said, if Joe gets back in, in Joe wins every single mutiny challenge. He wins the fire challenge or he does he just wins. All those immediate challenges were not gonna vote for him. Literally one the challenge back in the three consecutive challenges. And he, he may have even taken off his, his idol. His his necklace in Gontha to fire, you know, but if it was, like, Gavin Joe Victoria, the Victoria wins. If it's if it's Gavin Joe Rick like Rick wins, even after if those in that I mean that was the reality of it. So I had to I had to go into knowing gonna lose in that second idol, right? That the controversial idol received that wasn't a part of my game that was a pharma game plan like when that was that was leverage. When I realized it was something that I could could use to capitalize on my relationship with Ricky's in further. That that's what I did. But that wasn't a part of the the the strategy. If, if Rick had not found that itl and he had not found the had not won the immunity, a final five that idol would have been played for Rick Ling as kept I needed to keep Rick in as long as I could. Because I knew the only shot that I had at winning was taking out Rick at fire. Rick wins immunity final four. He wins the game. If he beats me, fire final four wins the game in both of those outcomes, like I'm okay was literally needed just keep him as long as I can until it comes until I execute Mike plan in, if I do affectively like that's that's going to bolster my resume. But even if that, that idol is, is not played. I believe that, that Rick plays the that immunity necklace for me instead of four for Gavin. Now he may say no, but that's that was my game. That was my thought going into it because we even woke up when I had Lawrence idle flush. And when Rick played his idol we woke up at four o'clock, I don't know what time was, but the mood was still up, and we other for that idol, and I had been telling Lauren and ju Julie, I will not let Rick find this item. I'm going to hunt him like a dog. I will track him down. I will make sure he stays by stay with him. No matter what. And what I was actually doing was helping Rick financial, we needed that we needed that idle at final five, and whether he won the challenge, I wanna challenge, like it did matter. We were keeping each other in the game into that was like that was a big part of the strategy. You know, you think why you know had Chris had build enough trust. Or Chris maneuver that how Ricky of the idol back, it's because I, I explained to Lee told Rick, we're going we're in this. Together until we're not. And we're gonna make it. We're gonna make it at least two four promise. And so we were we're looking out for each other even though I was playing the dumb. You know, I can't believe that, that Rick found the idol like what the heck you know how out the whole game I was, I was on the side of Gavin Lauren, and Julie, like playing that super super super super hard. But I was telling a trust me, please trust me, like we're going to we're going to progress together. But all along were you planning on? I need to win the final four immunity challenge, and then take Rick and then beat Rick, at the fire making or was that something that came to you very late in the process that came to me weeks prior, I known that, that's I known that, that was the only thing I can do to, to make epic for jury of pilots like that was the that was really one of the only things. I could do to plead my case effectively, in say, hey, I took I took the like historically big moves like not just not just big moves. But I, I did things that have never been done before. And that was something that I planned out and knowing how before finders controversy before firemen like with the fire making challenged nowadays. You know, like I know you Andrea Jordan talking about, like, do you like it? Do you not like it? I personally have seen I've seen you like it. I like it. Yeah. Me being on survivor. I also still like it because I like unlike the good, I like giving the best player at least one shot. You know, so many seasons where if the top competitor doesn't win final three immunity or final four munity. They're done. Yeah. Done. But didn't they have their chance to win the immunity like you didn't win the challenge? You aren't the best. Yeah. No. It's a good. It's a good point. I, I've just personally you should get a second shot. He lost the immunity challenge, because a lot of a lot of the time you see, like you just see players like that season. I didn't get a second chance when Jenna won the immunity on day thirty eight I would like a second chance. Yeah, I know. And you'd probably once arriver, if you had it, like if you had that chance, you know, like like that. That's how big that vote is whether seasons that like the entire season comes down to something where a player's stand out in, in get snuffed at the end, there's like you know, three B minus players. News abandoned together and we're like, we gotta get out the plus player. I think it just gives one more it gives it gives a chance for that, that player. Like, all right. If you're the freaking bee's knees improve, it is. If you lose, you know, no-one enough the other thing, too is like people don't necessarily like to see a challenge win outs in survivor. Right. I mean that's just how it's perceived in. So if you continue to like win out, yet you one L, but was there was there an opportunity where you lost. But then you had to like, really freaking earn it and that was like a conversation that I had with Rick, like dude, you know, you either way, if Gavin or Julie wins, we have, we're, we're gonna go against fire each other. They're going to send us to fire in one win. If if you win a'munity you win. If you win fire you in. The only way to, you know, to go out if, if you get beat in, like that was that was understood right ahead of time. I was like an understood agreed upon rule of the game. And so I was okay with kind of, like making that known and in so yeah, I think that I think that that Rick's Rex game in like a regular season or season before the fire making. He's, he's, he's done wins the final immunity necklace or the last two but Brady will kill the fire making. But now that you've done, it is there anything left to see in terms of that you won the challenge and put yourself in is there is there anything that I guess that we haven't seen somebody put himself in and lose. I don't think I don't think that there's another. Yeah. What could top what you did? The I'd nothing nothing nothing. So. We've seen it now we've seen we've, we've had this play out. And maybe there's something different. We could maybe there's like a wheel of challenges, we could spin tribal council of what the what the, the door will be. It doesn't have to be fire making like Maija does not have to be fine making it could get played out pretty quick, but at least something that final four. Like you said, a wheel of, of challenges that would allow one of those players to, to earn their spot for the record though, that the it would have been, I guess, if Jenna sent me and Matteo to the final fire making challenge. I think that Matteo would won the firemen and challenging about five seconds. So I would've been felt more like a loser. Lost the challenge, and then lost fire making. We'll maybe you maybe would have been practicing back then maybe they you are like, oh, shoot late now too late. Two years too late. Okay. So when you won the challenge to get back into the game. Anything about winning the challenge that we that we need to know that I have to imagine that it's like you can't believe it. I you're talking about the back during when you when you get back in at the final six. Yeah. When I get back into the final six I know I mean, I, I one I knew I had that game plan like that's what I needed to do. I had to do and then just executed another kind of thing that. I did is I really did. Like I played. Yeah. Like I played I played dumb. I never inserted myself in any of the conversations with Gavin. Julie Lauren like they were dictation. They're like Chris doesn't seem like he really cares, if because I'm like guys, like what are we gonna do? I don't know what to do. I haven't played the game in so long like I need help. Please hold my hand in. That was that was that was a strategy that I used to, to, to kind of give them the aura of like aright. Chris, like, don't worry like will hold your hand through this because you suck it survivor. You know, like that was something that I was intentionally doing to kind of boost their ego a little bit in make them feel like I really was not, not threat, 'cause I, I knew I was a threat in, in Victoria, kind of nods threat, but I really was like I just was dummying up, you know. I was playing Colombo. Yeah, I was asking. I was asking like questions leading questions. Like, what you think we should do about this? Like is Rick, really. That is Rick, really that big of a threat. Can you take her, you know, like just really kind of Doug my, my heels deep into into into the dummy up just so that they could one more thing, the Colombo today, right? Yeah. One more thing, the best answer like people when you want information, you want answers from, from people like the, the best way to get it as not to tell them, but for them to give it to you for them to give that information to you is to ask questions in a way that they feel comfortable enough answering the question, you know, like like to disarming, right. Disarming them together. Gather information Intel and so that was something that I played on, on pretty pretty heavily. Yeah. If that, like the negative reverse. Yeah a little little bit. Yeah. Yet. I mean it's, it's, it's, it's dummying you know, it's dumbing up. There's a lot of similarities between like sales is like six techniques are essentially just a way to level the playing field because, you know, in a buyer comes in, like they have something in mind that they, you know, they want to. To have a certain outcome in a lot of that outcome. A lot of times it's just like inaction, right? The, the wanna sit think do whatever you know on their terms until, like sickness or just the ability to kind of like level the playing field. So in someone's ready to like by instead of being like all right now, you're ready to buy, it's like what you think we should do where should we go from here? Mr. Mr. customer. Now, we've established x y and z, where do you see us lifting off at this point, you know, in, in kind of, like they would leave wealth with covered this, this, this like? Yeah. I guess the next step is, is the to sign off, right? So kind of the same thing with the, you know, the, the negative reverse or whatever those are just ways to level the playing field in. So for me. I. I. What was your sales background did? Did you do door to door sales for solar? Is that? Is that right? I started. So, yeah, I started my career in in. Well originally, I was. Right out of college, worked in coffee houses, Brita, worked in like account management. And then I got. With a firm that did, like three models for architecture companies kind of like bidding, and they wanted to the model to kinda show what they were doing, and then I moved into solar, and was yet did door to door incredible company. There were four but they essentially within a few months, I've kinda worked up and became assistant manager of an office in regroup that kind of Bilton and had a lot of energy in, and, you know, ended up in the number one office in the company and then I was promoted to manager managed that office until my time on survivor. And then when I was gone in south Rona. They flip the legislation on solar in basically, you know, my, my office, like just dispersed, because the put a complete stop on it. But yeah, I've had a few years of sales experience. And I ll. Love it. I mean, it's, it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of engaging a lot of engagement like I couldn't see myself sitting behind a desk. I'm not that type of person. So as, as crazy isn't sounds that I'm a Madore salesman. They're they're still are. Yeah. There we were out there, and, and if, if you, if you see someone that looks like Chris, from survivor knocking on your door in the cargo area, the summer, it may may actually be me. I just think that, that is a great practice for being on one of these shows just that the, you know, going around and just having to make all these first impressions and get somebody to not slam the door in your face. I have to think that, that is one of the best things that you can do to practice for a show like this, the I agree. I mean it was it was a big part of my story goes apart, apart of the neared of, of my casting experience, you know, like this guy is. Door to door sales. Like he's a grinder. He's personable. He can he can talk to someone in kind of like established disarm and in, in initiate conversation quickly. And those are all really important reporter is so key. I mean, just the in life in general reports in the ability to report quickly is, is a really good skill to have an so over the past few years, I've just been able to develop those end. It's, it's what's helped me be successful mount personal career. But it's also something that anyone who is going to apply to be on a show where like social politics are involved. It's, it's really effective. All right, when you were in the final six challenge, and Julie's puzzle was falling over. Why did you help Julie and I talked about this with Rick and that he still seemed annoy? Of he didn't understand why you would be helping Julie in that spot when you came back into the game. Yeah, I was hungry. Man. I was hungry. So you just like okay bye help her. She'll take me on the ward. Yes. And I also had told Rick ahead of time, like, like, Rick whatever happens. I've got your back and in writ, I feel probably Rick interpreted that was almost as if maybe a betrayal like why is helping my enemy, you know? Right. It was because going into it. I knew I had to lose. And I knew that I had to get on the other side of the fence like Rick was on one side and everyone else was on the other side. And in that point, I did know that, that Rick side was real that a throw on your part. No. I mean I was really behind. You were very far behind. Yeah. I was trying to do the I was trying to do the numbers, I was even farther buying the what it. Showed my mind harder. Explain how the numbers were literally like mixing themselves. Yeah. It's done or Stanley you be like, oh, it's probably because your brain was starved for thirty five days, it's not like in the realm of impossibilities, but I was definitely behind Anez. I got up there in as Julie started getting closer. I was I knew that I could leverage Meyer relationship with Julie. If I was able to help her in guide that in Rick's, like, Chris, what are doing, like, really he was getting pissed. But I knew that, that, that I know that Julia wasn't didn't really wanna work with him. And that if I was able to position myself at helping the person who would win than maybe they will take me on the reward and if they took been the reward, the now probably to figure out what the plan majority was hanging out with the plan of the Jordy was ideal to go back until Rick. Exactly what we needed to do. And that's why we voted correctly. I was actually supposed to vote for. At that reward, Joan. We talked about Julian, I, I was supposed to vote for Rick. Lauren was going to vote for Vic. But what I had kind of realized was that an after telling. Lauren that she wanted to. After after telling Laura that she needed to play Asner player idle for me. And she said, okay. I kind of realized that like it was because she wanted to save the person. She played the Ida for. So by getting learn to play the idol for me and then subsequently voting for Victoria, that would have caused a item to be played wrong. Everyone to be voted for the wrong person except for me in Devon's in getting threat. So it was it was staged to where we would kind of split votes, but I was supposed to Ridgely vote for Vic in whenever she was pushing back pushback realized like to, to do that, because she wants to play the idol for me in look like the hero, right? I would wanna look hero. I switched my vote, but in terms of how that vote Alta went down that it was supposed to be a split vote, lay the why did Lauren that you were going to be voted out, because she wasn't voting for you, right? Yes, she votes for Devon. So what did she think that there were going to get you out coming was she wasn't sure about Gavin? She trusted Gavin. That was swing on her part. It was a big play not to lose. Yep. Yep. It was a swing. She trusted and that's why like it. If feeler saying is dumb like it's, so it's you get to the end and it's like it's such a tough game like it's so intricate. And I, I can't I can't blame her. I mean. Yes, she should have held like she should have. But I was playing pretty pretty tough like pretty tough game in at that point. She thought that she had me in the bag. She thought she she'd gum, that, sort of but Vick was still in the game and Invicta gabum had been close the entire game. So if she had gotten to, to evicted gotten Gavin, like he might have he might have voted for me because that's what dick had said. It was just a misplayed on her part. And she didn't know that Rick Seidel Israel, where I did can I picked you on an idea to potentially get Devon's out at final six? This is what I was thinking during the finale, and I, I know it's not gonna work for a number reasons. But the problem for everybody, there was that Devon's had an idol and they needed to, they couldn't vote him out because he because he had his idol, but was there any way that they could have convinced everybody? Could have convinced Devon's that the vote was for you one hundred percent. The vote is the vote is coming for you. And then Lauren plays her idol on your. I guess he stands up at that point. And then plays plays his own idol tinge. If he if he hides, basically, if everyone is like the votes on Chris votes on Chris votes on. Chris is idol for me riding. But he had already pulled his idol out. You know, the tribe travel council before they were really questioning, whether it was real or not an everyone had feeling like he was gonna play it for himself. And at that point, I didn't want him out run play for everybody else. But I didn't want him out in, I was the one that was playing both sides, one signed fake the other side. It was thin take as deadens authentic, the rest of fake. Right. So I kind of was like the I kind of, like was bridging the gap like I'll keep tabs on, Rick like, but it's so stupid to take him. Why would anyone work with him? And everyone's again, I knew a right. Like, why would you like out so dumb? You gotta be fooled work with rake. But that's that was my kind of my MO. So, yeah, I could have worked. But I really believe that Rick was playing because I had I told. Him like player player idle. And then we'll if we need to find another will wake up super early, and find another one Victoria ends up going out on that vote, Ben Martell, asks, do you feel like that you could also beaten Victoria, and Lauren, or Lauren or did he come in with his eyes on Gavin and Julie for the final three from the moment? He got back into does the outcome change. If you're up against anybody else in the finals that doesn't include Devon's, like if there's if there's if it's Gavin in Victoria, or Victoria, and Lauren or Victoria, and Julie, if victorious survives to the, I think, Victoria, beats me down Victorian makes it to the end. I think is in spite of everything that I had done. She would have deserved it by then I don't know how I don't know how she would have been able to do that. It's not like that's kind of like a scenario that doesn't re-. Really exist based on the idols that were played in the kind of like, how the immunity challenges Wint in less she wins. Right. Unless she wins immunity twice. But I think lose to Victoria, it sounds like the jury had a very high opinion of Victoria. Yeah. We she was playing so subtle that every person that got voted out. They would come the like, oh my God. Like victorious great, you know, like she's she's playing great in if in Ponderosa situation. That's the death type of game you respect, you know, the one that's like yes, she, she told me this, until me that in, like we're gonna vote because his group it is group think in Ponderosa, and so she would have been able to get to the she was super smart super smart. So she hit of pleaded her case like she would have won Lauren. It's tricky. I don't think that I don't I think maybe the votes would have been. Seven six it would have been close big just because of her relationships with some of the players. Gavin connects question about Victoria, and Gavin specifically because it sounds like that Victoria, was really well, regarded by the jury, and Gavin while everybody has nice things to say only ended up getting four of the votes. And I asked a couple people on the red carpet about this. Like Ron said no Gavin played a game in the shadows that wasn't respected. What was the difference between Victoria's game and Gavin's game where they were together the entire time and voted the same way on pretty much every single vote. The two were Gavin is maybe incertitude. And again, like you're asking me, but and this is another. It's what you spent an incredible amount of time with the jury. So I feel like that you have some, some. I know you, you didn't cast a vote, but maybe you have some insight into how they thought how it was perceived as Victoria was able to. To kind of if there was a plan in place. I think Victoria was the mouth, right was the brains. You know, and, and Gavin maybe like Gavin was the was the body, right? Like Gavin was the trip was vote was transporting kind of the plan around but wasn't like I think from what the jury the what the jury was saying was Victoria was kind of the one shifting in playing this signing playing outside in, it was perceived that when she was when they were talking about things, like, for example, for the Aubrey vote, right? Like it was Victoria, who had that conversation with Aubrey. End of the conversation with the guys. Right. Like it was it was her move that shoe that Aubrey, trusted her enough to get blindsided with, with war dog, it was a couple people, but, but Victoria was in tune with the plan to vote out Aurora until more dog that it was a Rura in vote out, you know word like she was kind of one to kind of bridge, the gaps between people who would give voted out and in the voting block. I think that's why is because of her her kinda like keenness or slightness in from people who are on the jury originally. She looks like this kind of meek, like not didn't speak up very much in tribal would say certain things that were like kind of like tip. Tip off a little bit. But it wasn't you know it just wasn't as. It wasn't perceived from travel county on voted out, Dane, Victoria. She played it. Okay. So we did talk about a lot of these things when we got to speak on the red carpet about when you came back into the game. So tell me if there's anything that I'm going through too quickly with this stuff, but at the final five who made the call, whether it was going to be Lauren or Julie to get voted out of five when Rick as soon as Rick won the their family idol that morning before the challenge. And then we walked away down the beach, and he gave me the other of my piece of my idol back. We knew we were both say, we kinda gave each other hub. We're like who who's who you want to save? And we were like, and I think, because we knew Gavan. May not have had as many friends on. The jury is Lauren may have had and we knew, you know, Galvan. I don't know. I don't know. We weren't. I mean from player standpoint, I didn't think you have had what it took to articulate himself travel council and you know it was one step closer to the end. Like, he I think dislike duties, we like him, it's a matter of, like you know, who you like, but you think you can be, and we liked Gavan. We wanted to keep him around. And so we give the an enrich, you know, Ricky of the idol to, to Gavin form. Yeah, only because I asked because Julie had one to challenges, she had just won the final six challenge. Previously and Lauren while she is a tough competitor. Yeah. We knew we knew Julia was gonna be at the end someone was gonna sit next to Julie. Okay. So it wasn't so much. You were worried about her if she one final four she was a person that was just going to be easier to be. Yes. Can you articulate why people felt like she was going to be an? Easy beat in the end. She was she was very, very volatile in the game really emotionally ups and downs highs and lows like the. You know, crazy lady if you will. But she wasn't I mean, she issue as a motion end in it. I think that, and she articulated or self really well at travel, the she did a great job at final tribal with that speech. But I just think that it was a game that, that the jury didn't respect because Saul saw through it like you know, like, I'm I put in Michigan are. Yup. Yeah. You did like sure because someone said, I think like emotions or reactionary, they're not proactive, their like based on how you feel and it's not like it, doesn't it doesn't move the game forward as private moves the game forward for smarter people to implement like to, to, to spot it capitalize on it and move forward, their plan because of your, you know, instability in, that is not the way that the jury was looking at the game when they. Decided to vote for the winner. And so, I think everyone wanted to bring Julia along, because she just didn't like she. She wasn't as active in the game that the jury wanted to see play. She was peace in the game that the jury as people getting voted out were were playing. Chris one of the things that Rick got criticized for was that he gave you the other half of the idol back going into the final five. Did you think at any point there was a chance? He might not give it back to, you know, because what, what people don't realize that I was willing. I was hold like I was wholeheartedly willing to give him the idol. If we didn't find it was in my half of the idol if we didn't find now. Yeah. We were I was going to get to the end. Yeah. So your, your pitch was basically, like, let's find an idol for you. And then I'll give you my end. If not, I'll give you my half of the idol. Yeah. Articulated in the game where that was just like that's what you were going to do. No. That was our are in the game. When we had the conversation on the beach because I knew that he had to fake idols. And if it came down to it, you know, we would play. We would play that idol that I had for him and played getting played. We would play that fake idol for for that, that reliable for him in. I would find a fake idol, you know, I would I would find it up in the tree. I didn't have anything to lose by joining people in Rick, if we found that than it would have thrown the sent off of Rick, and then he would have played it. We would have hoped, you know, I dearly sent sent someone else home writes, I wouldn't was going to play that idol half. I was going to give that half to Rick. If we did not find the other idol, but we had flushed tumor like we have to find it. But if we don't like, I'm gonna give you this. And that's the thing is like people don't understand, like, why would Rick give it to him? Why would we because Chris would have given it to Rick because to get the final four in Rickwood of beaten, Chris, Chris was okay with that? I was going full third person. Chris going full for would. Yeah. Chris is gonna do. It's best for Chris. And if Chris wants to keep the biggest threat is far as he can intil file into fire than this. Like that's what I had to do third per Sonica. You've done it. You get it now. Now you get it. You both went to the final three you understand. I also don't know. I, I mean how do you not strangle Rick Devon's when he says he's not going to give you the half of the idol. Yeah. Like, like let's role play that that day guy. So. You want. You want your half the idol BAC. I don't. I mean your critics. I'm Rick Devin. So you just want you while you're idle back. Yeah. Dude, Rick jump, and we found it to give the down five so don't end. But now you he. Let's say he didn't find an idol, okay? He didn't find an idol. Now, I'm going to tell you that you are not getting your half the back. And I want you to react like you would have okay you following me on this. Okay. I want my eyes Rick, do you are dreaming. I'm not giving it to you. Rick, you promised on day twelve that we would work together. Now not going to give it to you, Rick. You suck. Go go waters over here and oils of their apparently I'm washing your. The ocean. Govan there, Rick, you suck. I don't I don't know how you guys like they get you to tribal council without there being a fistfight. I don't know how yeah I mean I would I would be livid, but but it's kind of like the role play. It's like you know what? Like what you do. Almost like I couldn't I can't even think about it because we were really, really committed on same page risotto. We were really on the same on the only we weren't on the same page is when I was helping Julie when that is on. About legitimately. Yeah. Into doesn't the only way I'm getting farther is by working with the only person that no one else wants to work with. Yes. But conversely, now the she was on the other foot. Once you win the final four, immunity. And now he wants to get brought to the final four, and you're asking him to lay out the case for why you should do it which has to be a bad sign. Yes, it every survivor player like alliances in the less either final four, or like the they have to end at final four. So if it's the tweet new and taking like your your favorite person to the end, you gotta look out for you would do would have would have won Kagi on if he didn't if he if you voted out, Tony limb those those that's the worst possible scenario either go down as you. Making a big move in it going against your number. Don't remind me don't remind. On him in the face. Do this is lame. Maybe maybe we taught ream everything she knows. Woo. He got me to the end, bro. You gotta bring me to the Abro. We, we've been number one since they've five. Woo. Will what why would you trust me? They'll wing to ever. Trust me. That, Tony Victoria. Yeah. Tony McCoy of black Monday. Wow. Podcast got very weird at the and sneak brave. You, it's going to get weirder folks. We're going to keep the keep hanging there. That's a team. That's a tease. This is the reward for everyone. That's lasted two hours and thirty seven. Impersonating all favorites our players. Yeah. This is turned into the evolution strategy volume for. Just just a list. Worth it. Call jolly Atlit was the stand up comedy just make improv improv this. That's what the third hour podcast to evolution. Okay. So, Rick, Devon's not feeling. Good. You're gonna take them into the final four firemen was there. Anything that he said that, that gave you pause. Did he make any pitch? That was compelling rich. Yeah. There was. No, there was no pitch. That was compelling. Except for the pitch that like I'm about to motion like ruined him. You know, that was the hardest thing is, is knowing that we were really close. And I knew I had to do it. And I knew that I respected him so much. I love like I love Rick out there like we were really tight and to do that to him from an emotional thing was, was painful, it was because human I play a game that's cutthroat but a human being. So that was really. That was hard. Like he was kind of, like, do you hear nothing? He was. He was really emotional in, like we had a we had a time where we just had to sit. We sat on the ocean. We like legitimately had it out. He was mad. He was feeling. We. Final four. Are we going on three? And like I don't know. Like I don't I do not know I haven't made a decision, yet, he kinda felt like he was like you're about to take the fire to. I didn't say that. But I you just need to practice because whatever happens like if you win tonight you win survivor. Yeah. In any other season. You don't win immunity. You lose anyways like any other season other than last four you would have lost because you made it here new final unity. So this is finally, like this is your last chance. Like if you win, you win kind of like the, the word the coach like take two words to the embattled out like whoever whoever wins between the two were like they deserve their deserving right there were the in that and I kind of like, dude, I cannot you're like he was basically telling me like his pitch was that there's no way you're gonna win. The jury is not going to reject your gang. Don't never play enough. Yet. You don't screw me for second place in screw. For second place. Yeah. But he didn't. He didn't know that. Like everyone hit said, I had a really long slow like long shot of winning. But there was like, if I played it out like the way that that was like, really monumentally didn't have all the facts yet. Yeah. That was didn't have all the facts. I'm getting screwed. So all right. So you go to the final four fire making and it goes your way day. Thirty nine breakfast, what was Gavin Julie's reaction to everything that was going on. Cavin was disappointed. What was it winning? He wanted to take Rick to fire. He wants the one to beat wreck. He wanted to be the one to be Rick. Yeah. He was. He was disappointed. And again, like, if Gavin goes to firing govern beats Rick Gavin wins, like if he has a ticket himself, but it would not have been enough for me. I literally had to do that move and so Gavin was upset, Julie kind of under. Julia was upset that, like I gave her the necklace, like she was about probably give it back to me. I don't want it that have been could. She have done that she probably could have done that. You know, like if you think about it, she may have been able to do that. Yeah. To get I refuse your offer like this. That's, that's the other. Find. So now the immunity necklace is turning into like the check at the restaurant of like no, I insist I insist all take it, let me too. I know I've got it. Yeah. The opposite of that. To be like, the awkward the awkward symbol of like, gratitude, you, both people kind of, like no they need it, but they're not willing to, to say, no or yes. Like it's just awkward in. It's like young up were. Going through debits berry. Like what do we do now? It's. Abbasi or like roll them. Okay. We've never had the situation for. Chris, you have to take. So I know one is accepting your immunity necklace, except Vic. Yeah, you have to give it to right now. This is great. Josh Greene was surprised by all the votes from original, comma, you got at the final tribal council. Victoria, Ron, Eric and Aubrey. Where was that a surprise for you? Yeah. I thought that I, I thought I thought that I was going to be if anything is going to be said Julia to that list. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was going to be seven six six. I was I thought it was going to be close. I didn't think Julia because Yulia was fiscal gap, and you didn't do anything. Like she kind of said, you didn't do anything second felt like that wasn't gonna go the way planned ahead planned been planned. But think that Eric and Victoria were going to vote for Gavin seven six like going out of that tribal count, you're having to. Yeah. Maybe Gavin did to a going to that final, tribal, like I thought it was I, I had a very little like when when people like oh, like he was so close with the jury, like he knew what was going to I legitimately thought that it was going. I was going to have to kill it in the final tribal to earn the respect of the jury not know going into that was gonna win. Once about the midday, ten minutes left in tribal, I had felt that I was our ticketing myself, much better than gather momentum shifting to my favor. NFL. I can in when I kept it up like that's when I kind of knew that I was probably somewhere in the fifty five to sixty five percent range like I got it, right. Get clapped back a little bit by the jury when you started asking Gavin questions and the jury came down a will ask the questions around here, crests yet, that was I got a little flesh like that. I my again, like the strategy, I guess, the only thing could try to downplay their games, you know and note to self don't ever do that to any place show like play your game really well, but, like don't it's not your job to commit other people, but that was part of what I just try to briefly. I thought it was funny that, that Kelly was personally offended by Ursula offended by houses like why. Why are you personally gathered personally advantage or why you personally? Well, they're the jurors get to ask questions. You're not you're not a juror. I'm not a jury and I it was like a quick like like slap on the wrist like like get it together. That's not we're not looking for that. And I appreciate that. They snapped at me. I mean you think about like that was important for me. That was important in a two and a half hour, tribal council, because it set the like this. That's a lie in you, don't you don't cross that line. You know they weren't like another was like you went too far. Okay. That's a line. You don't cross it moving forward in just like felt it into the notice pivoted immediately. Me it helped after the game is a question from Kristen call with staying invisible on social media intentional. Yes. Very quiet. It was very intentional. I did not. I did not want to, to spoil it like I didn't wasn't hard to stay quiet on social media. Yeah. Because I like I'm pretty, you know, I enjoy banter like out of anyone in the class. One of the closest people I am with, with this cast is war dog just because he's asking, I think it's funny dancers backing like being quick win like banter. Yeah. And so it was it was definitely intentional. And man. I part of. Yeah. Part of probably what the like what read it had seen. It was like when I was maybe like January YoM I had people I mean at this point, it's whatever. But in January, like I had gone on the ski trip, right? It. I took I took the buff like to go skiing, with in mind, you, I. Twenty twenty with so so, so stupid. I understand that. But I wasn't thinking like, oh, this is like the most significant thing in my closet. I was more like there was my soccer in needed something to on my face in Utah. This was before known known of my friends watched survivor, like no one even knew survivor in my close personal friend group, and I had maybe had a private Instagram account like eight hundred dollars. There was no I was on. But I took a story like I did disagree Instagram story, like took a picture of me and my co worker, we are out of work retreat. I tag my company in it. But I was wearing that, that red buff and it, you know, it gets got some traction for like, two or three days at an even realize it until maybe like two days later, that, that people were like close to the cast were pissed in the cast was like, why would you even do Ryan the flush my face? I was nervous. I was scared. I was like I was like I am about to get because it was the red color of the merge buff. It was the red co the merged buff. And, and that in got voted out like. Twenty like with with knowledge. There's incredible significance that with no knowledge. There's no significance oak. Chris do. But the bus merged vessels read. But then it got dropped like then no-one no-one talked about. I didn't even hear that. I'm pretty tapped into survivor on the internet. And I hadn't even heard that story until after the season was over. And so I was surprised that people made that big of a deal, or even caught that as a thing I mean, I think it's possible somebody from any given survivor season could have a buff. Yeah. And that's and that's like it is that super I mean that's super possible, like there's the those things they're they're out there. Right. Like I just I in a brief moment like the buff that I have was a buff of like that. And that to me freaked me the hell out, like I was like my God. They're gonna they're gonna take my million away. Yeah. Yeah. So I I shut it down. No, no more survive. Like no word like in an engagement with the internet late like the one troll like just almost, but the just just messed me up. Yeah. In a bad way, you spoiler should've been that boy, this guy is going to get back in and only have this for three days because that no survivor, who's had the buffer any meaningful amount of time would ever wear it again. It's way too disgusting to girls to gross. Buffer three days you could wear again. Buff for a week needs to be burned. Yes, the, the buffeted the Mani buff, that I had is there was like seventy three holes in it from, like thirty from hurting the fire. The cast iron handle. I like. Now we more it's like if someone tries to rob a Bank like, and I put that over there like oh, yeah. It's like they don't even have to do you can just see through it. It's just misery. It's not a Buffoni more it has zero purpose. Okay. Brian Kobuk once in a what is your interpretation of the perfect survivor game? Who do you think in thirty eight seasons of survivor has played the perfect game? If anybody's ever time. And who who has who has that? It's Brian Brian good. Good question, Brian. I it it's hard to say that there is one person who did it? I think they're I think that there are personality types. Right. There's ways to play the game, and you can kind of think of Tyson is like a jester key played with humor, and kind of like was able to navigate the social game but was on it strategically. You talk about Boston rob, and he's pulling strings in the background in new talk about, you know, Mike Holloway. And there's different versions of gameplay that I think are played the best in that in that irritation of like how the game is played and to me, I would have to say that, that rob redemption, I we obviously think everyone offense it was rigged, but he he, he played the puppetmaster like he pulled the strings really well so rob Tyson plate of really good game. Game in blood versus water lake. He he did. He didn't really well. Those two are really like those to stick out in my mind. J T, J T played the southern boy perfectly and he had he had fish back to ping ideas off of, but he was the loved one. You know, the guy and there's certain players those off three neither like if you row reverse try to figure Kenji t ever play a game like, like Boston, rob. No. Like that's just not his personnel. None millenniums. Nobody clues known as the rob game like rob gin. No, Liz Rob's game like rob. Wrestling route can't even be rather zone game. That's right. That's right. I was robbed it like rob version of, of every game type that was played really well inside of that game type going into like I wanted to pull each of these different types of players, like. Shoot like I'm drawing a blank poverty, like poverty played a great game as a charming as charming female just like Palade up for charmed. She played really good game like so I can't say that there's one player this played a perfect game. I think that there's different types of gain styles and different winners have capitalized perfectly that type of style. Could you talk a little bit about the reaction of that? You've this must have been such a roller coaster ride for you of, you know, you have this great experience, that you get on survivor, and then you're out of the game, then you have this whole other experience on the edge of extinction. Then you come back and you win the game and then the show is on. And then you get to the finale and then you win. But then there's all of these mixed reactions coming at you and people who not necessarily are mad at you but are mad at the show for. Change to the format, which a lot of people don't like that somebody that was out of the game. It's a comeback in right at the end. So what is this all like for you to process? I think the, the, the best way to, to process, new polarizing news is to like be content with your situation like be content with where you're at in. That's why I can take it lightly. Like I'm I'm totally okay with my survivor experience. Like I learned things about myself on the edge of extinction that will literally make me be become like a better version of myself like as a husband as a future father, as a son. Like as a brother as a friend, those things that learn on the edge of extinction will will help. There's no regrets. Like I am so thankful that the edge of extinction existed because it was for the players. I mean it was it was for the players to dig as deep as they could. And if the fans loved it like that's great. You know, if they don't like I still have that experience known can take that away from if anyone if anyone wants to know, like what the impact of the extinction was, like just read just go to aubrey's Instagram in read a dialogue, like like a three post section of her interpretation of house, what she experienced out there like nothing. No bitter fan can ever take that away from her in no, no upset person couch. You know, armchair quarterback in about this season will ever take away those experiences from us. It was like very, very, very valuable lessons learned in for me. I've I have. So I think the biggest thing like if you have a lot of validation outside of the game of survivor, it's easier to take light. Of the fans mixed controversy because at the end of the day, Hume humanity isn't isn't meant to really care about the like what all the masses. Thank like, if their circle of influence is like is a warm and open protecting environment than that's fine. Like I have a wonderful support base is absolutely amazing like she's incredible. And she loves the extinction. Yeah. She I mean she's she's good with. She's she. Station. She said it was the best Twitter. They ever did. Yes, she I it makes it I mean I, I was scratching my head for a while. But then after Wednesday night, you know, I was like, oh, that's why. Yeah. Makes. You didn't know why not get. Okay. Let me ask you this. Okay. If survivor called you and, like, hey, Chris, we're we're production meeting right now right now. It's that we're, we're tied five five. You're the tie-break vote, we do edge of extinction. Again for survivor thirty nine what he say. No, don't. I say, don't do it. No, I say that. I don't don't do it. It's, it's a social experiment. And I think it was meant to be like this, this big creative concept. I'm like, I would have to say, don't do it, unless you're willing to change the format of how you present it. You have you have to take. You have to take more time in forty two minutes to explain it and, and you, you just you just don't you just don't have enough time. Like, there's just you're trying to get into the heads of players on the only emotional like you know, existential level a level of meaning right? Like not just gameplay but. Like personal just meaning in, you just you just can't do that, when you don't have when you have so many variables that into a time slot. So I would say, no, unless they go to ninety minutes if try like swing for it, but make sure that you like care about it. You know, you like caress it, and you nurture like you nurture the brainchild because if you don't it falls, flat. And that's what happened to the season. I personally the season fell flat because there wasn't a time to really engage with the players on the extension. The extinction was in the name, you know, like you have to do that. So that's my take. Yeah. Okay. And well, well reason also that I think that if they told us about the or they showed us like some of the experienced people had instead of them just telling us about the experiences. Maybe that changes the, the, the feeling about a lot of. I think that also people are never going to be okay, or a lot of people wanna ever be okay with somebody coming back into the game, also after they voted out when it's when it survivor. I think that that's also still a hard thing for people to wrap their heads around. Yes, I agree. Okay. Now, I know you recently were married last month, and I started seeing pictures coming out from your wedding was this also something that you kept the secret of the cast from the season was at your wedding. There was. Yes. So we did Kate my, my wife like we love, we love traveling. We've backpack through Europe, like we've gone to South America. Couple times new love traveling. We wanted to do a destination wedding. And so we did actually a wedding Costa Rica, with, like thirty people super small, but then when we came back a week later, we did a reception in Greenville for all of our friends and family and all the members of the cast that can make it came. And it was, you know, we had to keep it under wraps no-one could put any photos out until after the finale. Yeah. They, they came to the reception in all the valid said the ceremony had been you know had been hat. And so just a party we, we just we partied in. It was it was a lot of fun. We actually decided to we had. I had a feeling like I had probably one and so Kate Nye had agreed. That we were going to push the wedding before the finale, because we wanted the experience of the wedding not to get muddled. Like that was really like important part of our lives. And I believe that I mean from from emotional personal biggest decision you can you can make more important than winning survivors, like marrying your life partner. And so we really wanted to, like honor that and not have it like, you know, Chris win survivor and gets you know, like like that we wanted to do it ahead of time. And let be Chris, the nobody no that's smart smart to because that helps keep the wedding expenses down because it's like, hey, I don't know if I, maybe I want, maybe I didn't let's, let's keep this small. Let's not go back crazy here. He we don't wanna, you know, overspend, maybe I didn't win. So smart guy, Chris underway. Okay. Now, so you Chris Underwood is full of surprises. And as we the survivor viewers learned and surprising people with. Here's all these wedding pictures, but there was something about Kris Underwood that I learned last week that blew my mind. And Chris could you share with the with the listeners another thing? Now, Chris, that he got really shy about social media after January. But maybe this story tells a a. Point where Chris Underwood was feeling a little bolder. This was a point where we're Chris under what it was feeling bold. And then his wife said, if you let that get out, you're, you're I'm going to kill you. You're dreaming. You're dreaming. If you think that that's acceptable. So I have some recording stuff. And I listen, I love, I love the wiggle room. I love I love Josh Witter. I wish just regular gave gave the edge of extinction. Love more love. I was a little sad. I you know what jockeys opinions? Josh very burnt out with the game of thrones. The game of thrones is taken a lot of a lot out of him. Understandable. There. There's a lot of a lot of things that he has to wrap is at around and try to spend into Bosnia. It's not anything personal. Yeah. It's, it's all good. It's all good. So I yeah, this was after David. Or this was after Rick got voted out and David were Lawrence Kelly are, are less, sue. I wanted to make a one off about his. I was one click away from submitting a wand off in a pseudo name, and then it would have been implied that people would have guessed it was me because my voice in how I sound. So I wouldn't against, but I submitted a wand off and yeah. That I thought that it would went like I was, I was proud of my work and just so that everyone knows like you may now that I'm not in active season of survivor. You might be getting someone else. Okay. All right. So just to just to set the table here, Chris Underwood made a one-off during the season and came dangerously close to sending it in. He never did until he sent it to me. Yesterday. I have not listened to it. So we're about to have the world. Premiere of a Chris Underwood wand off here. Okay. Do do you want to? About it's about when who's getting voted off. This is when Devon's got voted off. This is to give context of the episode because that's important for this is the episode five. When David is searching for the idol, okay? You went on Twitter is. When I when I post that we do this. I'm really just going to say nothing else matters except for this hour minute. Everything else before this is so boring. This is this is the Chris Underwood of this podcast, just coming in at the very end and completely changing the trajectory this whole. This is the U coming up right now. This is this is just the podcast version. Okay. All right. So here is the only song that we have for you today. It comes to us from a guy named Chris Underwood all the way from the edge of extinction, and he's here to talk about David Wright looking for an idol. The less you try is so much the editing station that people aren't even think stick like the last sport. Doda Brits living on a remote island. Nobody's looking for. Yolo -cation zone is drive. These people hates in just need this. I don't find to come through. You'll -cation Devon's gun Malev is so frustrates. And so just really, really needs to find. Renews. Demeaning can't be staff seen so much super must've McGinn. So I gotta find you because my life is not near the scores that no Anisur ADL. You'll my envy p. Unlike my DVD collection of survivor season wonder twenty three so please. Your no case merge protein, any some saving grace and just need this. I don't find comes through. -cation for funding before killing them. Nabi six just really. The mall guy school. Wow. That was a great job by colleague win worth. I'm so proud of that those are I was not expecting that Chris. Yes. You might have been in the top five. I wanted to submit that, so bad. I was coming for baba to bees. Yeah. Like winning brow. You went into much about a pull this out. Yeah. I think though that that was the week. I think you might have run into the Eujust fended ream buzzsaw. Yes, that was on. That was that ironically, you were the person that offended rim. So. Sort of fourth mentally screwed yourself. That was that would have been some serious work at. One would have been. Come up as a running out to the one about Kris Underwood. Yeah. What was it about David Wright, looking for the idol that really spoke to you? I don't know. I just thought it was funny. He was talking about how he was, like, you know, lame and all his friends like kids. And the only has is DVD. Kind. Yeah. All right. I got a little ring in my head. I got will sound bite him ahead of my guy, David. Let's get this idol and everyone was that was just like bash on David episode of that. It was so funny when now he has a girlfriend now it's not just the DVD shelf. Now he's writing about Star Trek. It's a it's a DVD show. It's a dog like he's, he's got it all. Now. He's got it all. This is a question for you from one of our listeners Janine, which month are you hoping to represent in next year's Zadie calendar where the body calendar? You know, I was I was really thinking if you, if you asked me which my favorite month is probably going to be. But I also the second. Yeah. That's. Yeah. Should you be like December where it's like you're almost through with the year. And then here comes Chris Underwood right at the end, you know, I have a couple thoughts on that. And the first one is. Bryce is just man. What can I say about Bryce, here's what I have to say about Bryce, he's just such a? One of your biggest supporters. Did you see where he was going nuts on Twitter when you got back in the game even before you one he was so excited? He just got back in. So the funny thing is Bryce is with me, and dog Bradsher we're, we're we make it there. There's some objectification, there may have to talk with Bryce about they're on. But Bryce actually FaceTime, we FaceTime word in, in Bryce was too embarrassed to. Treating. Cape us quarter of his eyebrow. Now, I don't want to Bryce do they man? Even talking about the. Chris could you? Is you. One more question Amana Rabinowitz, best Rene's story. Please do you have a one other story about ream that we don't know from your what twenty four days with rim on the edge of extinction. Is that the right number? Yeah. There's a lot of there's a lot of funny stories. One of the things. One of the thing that I think I would always get a kick out is when we would make the rice, and I would I would always like kind of prepare the rise in. And we would use salt water from the ocean. And like it was kinda you put it in a certain point the rice is going to be like. I start cooking the rice, it essentially rain would go get the water for me in. As you get the first Cup ideal. All right. This is going good. This is going to be like Ono. Ream really this about the burn really need to get more rice. We need more water read, the run run reef Gogel the wars, rather burn the rest of the bird. Go Neo to get more warrant. Did. Funny. So you made Rian be so tired. So you could win the edge of extinction challenge. Yes. That was that was. That's. Chris. Yes, good reason ream. I've busted her. I I, I was I was I agreed shops. She, she had a reason to be mad at me. Linh on his thing in world, his create like a full since of panic, any like if you don't get the water right now we're gonna burn the tire partner was gonna be so mad. Just kind of. Already over another. Action. Of that. There will be streaming. Apple. Ream John need this kind of abuse. I see doesn't I we had like, we had I tell her this all the time. It's like I was her her teenage son. You know that, like, you know, thought it was hilarious dislike in a loving, like pull pranks on their mom. Thing. And that was me that was me on the edge of extinction. Okay. We all the videos were the boyfriend like is pulling the Frank from his girlfriend, because his girlfriend is funnier thousand Chris, this was very fun to go through everything with you. I hope that you enjoyed it too. And you know. I hope that the listeners who stuck around this long. They got here. Wanda off was, this was great. I had a blast. I love I love to throw down in the future it at your so so if you're willing, open if I if you look at the downloads, and it's like, you know, average, you don't have to bring me back. Like it's okay, you that if it's just average. Yeah. You don't have to bring me if it's like average, you don't bring them back. But if it's good like you know near like, Chris, you did a good job. Everyone actually listens to you ramble on, you know, like, yeah, I'd love to come back, but only let me let me, let me ask you this. So I'm looking at your Twitter bio, okay at C C, C, R, yet Underwood. I don't know if I should even are in their Chris Underwood because it would it would be weird. If it will see HR Underwood. Sega. So I was there, no c Underwood thirty seven that you could take. No, no. Would say Conor would. But that sounds. Yeah. You don't want to. All right. To rattle quick out about switching to the three stratum. No hanging there. That's. That's gonna that's going to get all in, in a little bit. Okay. I'll keep it keep it to thirty seven. Yeah. Okay. I, I understand the dilemma here, but. I almost feel like even anti underscore kind of feel like that the rather go with the underscore than the are. See under what but anyway, so you say, I love coffee. I love my wife. I love survivor. I loved comma. That. I love. Why are you taking wrong Clark's? Catchphrases. Because when there's things that get stuck in my mind. Yeah, that's the happens to you happens to me. Yeah. I love rod Clark. That should that, that should be one of the other things. I love shouldn't it. Like I love. I love comma also and your nutri by that you are now on cameo. I'm on your page, and I'm seeing a cameo of you and war dog we yeah. We were not gonna myself will sometimes. Facetime each other. Yes, cameo, and sometimes whoever if there is a cameo out there than they sometimes get double dose of the survivor, can, I play the UN ward, cameo for AJ of? Yes. Okay. AJ. How's it going man? It's a Chris award will air Jerry. We heard that this is your first boy scout camp out this weekend. You had to go through a little raid. I remember. We had some rain, I'm gonna third night night three four. And our shelter was not good. So we feel your pain. We feel your pain if they it's a huge survivor moment, though, we we're excited that you're getting out toughness, right? It bills toughness this, right? You're going to be one of the best. Boy scouts out there. Glad you made it back those ever owned the rim eleven years old. It's the voice it's just. The persona of dog is like so great. So, yeah. We, we might be we're going to be able to the future together. Just really. I just bring what I'm like. Yeah. I'm like I'm not as cool guy. So I'm just going to bring him in to prop myself, so good. It's a good tag team. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a. Yeah. It's all right. Chris. Thank you so much of a hashtag. Yeah. I mean, you know, hashtag from encore hashtag for Monica are right, Chris, I really appreciate you spending all this time with me, and all the best and don't let any, any trolls get you down. Okay. I will not that check didn't bounce. Okay in my head high. That check is not enough outsing God. All right. Chris take care, buddy. All right. Thanks already, there you have it. Chris underwood. Three plus hours with the winner of survivor, thirty eight thank you so much for giving this podcast, your attention for that long. It really means a lot to me. Hope you guys enjoy the ride getting a chance to know the man who is the latest survivor winner. So a lot of fun to go through got a wand off along the way. And that's the thing with Chris Underwood full of surprises, and lots of fun to go through okay? We are going to be doing more of these interviews here in the next couple of weeks on the podcast excited for you to hear everything that we are coming up with the next person. I'm going to get a chance to talk to woman that's come up quite a bit in these last two podcasts going to talk to Victoria up next and we'll have podcast for you hopefully in the next couple of days, working on tracking down some more interviews as well. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast. Rob has website dot com. Home slash IT tunes to make sure you are subscribe to the podcast feed, we always appreciate your feedback, and star ratings as well. Of course, also we could not make any of this happened without the support of the rob has a podcast patrons just got done earlier this week with our patron cast for the month of may three and a half hours taking the phone calls from the patrons of rob has a podcast. Do it every single week on our Facebook Friday. If you want to get involved with rob has a podcast and here, reading that's going on behind the scenes become a part of our patriot community. Head on over to rob has a website dot com slash patron to see everything that we've got going on. That's all at rob has a website dot com slash patron. Thanks again. Chris Underwood and you for making it all the way through with love to hear. We have to say on social media on that, rob sister. You know, take care have a good one. Bye. Chai is so close to the extinction that people are think were extinct. We're like the last four dote of living on a remote island. Nobody's looking for soon, you'll know Kishen is honest drive these people in just need this fund to come through. I have to say positive. You're locate Devon's gun. My life is so frustrates. And so just really, really need. Find. I know the government has been news that the leading campy staff works seen so much must've MC in that. So I gotta find you because my life is not near the school is that no major jahmai in VP? Unlike my baby collection of survivor seasons wonder Twenty-three so peas in your location with merge approach nannies saving. Grayson digest need this. I don't find through. Sinn your location for funded before killing knobby, so just re really need. The mall. God long. God.