True Tales of Bob Dylan's Rolling Thunder Revue
Hey, I'm Brian. Hi. This is Rolling Stone music now in the studio with Andy green. And we thought today we talk about Martin Scorsese's new documentary about Bob Dylan and the wrong thunder tour. And we have a couple of people we're gonna be talking to actually part of that tour. We're going to start with Louis Kemp who's mentioned in the movie and Louis was Bob's good friend from childhood. They went to summer camp together, and Louis was the producer of the rolling thunder tour and Louis also has a new book coming out about his friendship and time with Bob Dylan. That's called me fifty years of adventures and Louis do we have you here? I really enjoyed the book, thanks for being here. Did you get a chance to see the documentary because it's obviously not quite a documentary. There's a bit of fiction in there. Yes. You're right. Yeah. I thought actually Wednesday night, of course, I was at all the conflict. So I knew how amazing. The shows were and the moments for the docking theory, you know, captured thousand and that was great. So for people who don't know Andy Roda story kind of breaking this down. There's a number of fictional elements inserted into the movie. One is the purported director of all the old documentary footage who did not exist. That was actually bet Mueller's husband playing apart. Yes. Yes. And it must have been bizarre. I'm very curious for you, as a real person involved in the real event, what you made of all that fiction. Yes. Well, I found it amusing. But the same time I thought it took away from the realistic integrity of the tour, because those three talking heads are aligned article purely fictitious. You know, they weren't there things they said, has no bearing on the reality of the tour. So I guess it was an attempt by, of course, as a two at some level of artistic mystique to the whole thing. But my point of view, you know took away from the pianist and the reality of what really happened back. I mean for the record as Andy road. Sharon Stone talks about being on the tour as a teenager. She was not she's just a Bob Dylan fan who they recruited to play this part. And then the politician is not real either, right? Or the right. Yeah. That's all that the guy who was the promoter as a guy who Cuenca via the director of the footage movie, hav adage fiction, right. The promoters are real executive, I think, paramount rial, and the film shows he wasn't involved with this tour at all, and the film show. So many great scenes that they don't give context to so Louis I love to hear the story of the Mahjong tournament, and my Dylan music to these old women that are playing Mahjong, and that was very funny after we left New York City where we were doing the pre tour rehearsals. And we were doing ministry of work, we went up to go. See Chris up in the Cape close to. Plymouth was we found the resort there that was up season and we staged there, and we did some hersal up there and as a turns out, they had booked, March, John turn to be there. The same time the people that don't worry they won't with you at all. We said five and it turns out, just the rightful group of older way these or there for this Marchand tournament. It was a real contrast. They're only time people and in the margin of these everybody go good. And it was really interesting dynamics, and I at some point, I can't remember whose idea it was. But some of the said, let's put out a little something for the Mahjong as they had no idea who anybody while never knew who bible, good. Most of this was totally outside their element. And so they and terrorists captured on, on that, which were I think the man. The hotel came in and said something, why the tournament was going on something to the fact, we have a little treat. You ladies today. We arranged a special entertainment and he entered used the helm Ginsburg. And, and Bob Zimmerman has two hundred that they booked entertain them, L read to bowl tree, and some of his stick, and then. You know you saw part of what he did. And they were very polite, you know, as you could say they're they're watching, and, and then they clapped afterwards and you know, those of us who are part of the tour we were just cracking up. Now in your book you described the origins of the tour and also that Bob kinda left, you hanging to the last second, you told him that unless he gave you an answer. You were gonna have the town, he literally called you on the dot of the moment that you said you were gonna leave. So that's all very dramatic. But I'm just curious. If you could put this into some context of Bob's life. Why did he want to do it? And why did he want to do it in this very unique way, sort of a carnival kind of thing? What was your impression on all that? I think the carnal, thing goes back to our roots, you know, we would in northern Minnesota always was a carnival too, that would come through our community know always very exciting for us to go to the carnival and carnival was there for their God. And it was like, wow, what was that and left us to exciting press? So that was in our DNA. And so I had come back from Alaska doing my salmon season up there. And when I came back to loop Bob Kobe's, come down to farm hang out, so I went, and it's outside Minneapolis. And he told me just come back from New York, he played me some of the songs from which would become the these air, that was released about six months later, though, song, played on rolling in any told me that he wanted to go out and do a tour much different than anything, either done or anybody else that every, and he had this musical minstrel roadshow carnival, type that he wanted to orchestrate around where everything was just casual climb fluid and something that would be quite good audiences, and go the places that he would never normally go or most big acts whenever go small venues, and all the way places to the real fans who get attention. Chance to have good seats and we would come to them, and that it would be kind of a mysterious thing that we would just break the shows they have the time no advertising. We send the couple show people into town with handbills, and whoever came game, you know, and. Then as we're throwing this back and forth between two little kids. Eating off each other. Yeah. Look through this do that. And. Yeah, that's not even tell the people on the tour words court. Yeah, that's him. You know, you could see us like two TV's kids back. I'm we were when we were kids we were. But now we're successful own right. And we kinda reverted back to those inclinations. And then it just evolved from there. You know, we find to he had told me when he was in New York, you mentioned this idea to a few a types their base at all. No, you're too good for that. You got another tour way, did, and seventy four big halls and arenas and out gore jets and, you know, go out and make a lot of money. And he looked at me and said, you know, I did that seventy four I don't wanna do that now and I had been on tour seventy four with. And so I saw the whole thing and said you saw he said that was fine. This I wanna do totally different, right? Three or four days towards the end of that time, he asked me, he said, Louis, I want you the produce this store, and he said. Because you get and I trust you. Well. The film doesn't mention Mick Ronson much, who was Bowie's guitarist. I'm curious to hear your memories of him because he had just come off a hugely starts to her and was such a different kind of show. So how did mic play on the tour? And just I tell your memories of him being there Mikka, incredible musician in a real down to earth guy, everybody, like he was kinda kept doing kind of a quiet guy. You know, when he wasn't playing reserve sorta guy, but he was a true rocket rower. I'd be this guy was lazing hill. And you know, when he played that you could see that. And as a person he was a real gentleman. Well liked by everybody Bob seems in many ways, very happy in a lot of this footage in incredibly engaged in his Ginsburg says it was rumor is going on that the inspired. Bob Dylan was back. And he does seem very inspired at the same time. Was he a little bit lost, because he was heading away from this domesticity that had been his life for the past eight years and heading towards the entire? Fairly new phase. It was also it was the beginning as you say, in your book, in some ways, it was the beginning of the never ending tour because he said to you at the end of the tour like I'm just gonna keep going. How would you define where his head was that growing one even still family wise? He was fine. You're talking mid seventy five didn't get divorced couple years. And he had seren- the kids. Join him on tour at different points. But he just wanted to go out and go with the real fans in a real way and not not to star treatment, as you know, this in the movie, he was driving a many way he drove his own van and trailer. There is just one of the boys on. That's all he wanted to be true. That's how he acted on Batory. There was no star nonsense or anything like that. It's totally emerged as a part of the tour family, and enjoying it as you tell me one or two memories before we let you go that you felt like weren't captured in movie from that tour. Did you miss the most? Yeah. I don't think it captured up the comradeship that there was between all the people in a tour. It was like family. I think he could hit that in interviews that came out with Alan and Joan Baez in December garage, too. But that's what it was. And I don't think that came across to the extent that. Existed. And it was just like one big happy, one time, you know, and the crowds were with people on the tour were playing up each other's energy. You know, these shows were four or five hours long. It wasn't a concert. It was a review like the title and the length of the show, would depend, I give a night on the fluidity that developed between the people even though we had a pecking order of you'll who come out and do a what there was a lot about living going out. And when we go to a particular town where some entertainer would join us by gravy, often bring them onstage, and they would do sets which would just had to the review aspects of disowned the people love it. Yeah. And the last thing I'll ask you is, is a great scene. Captured were you in Bob kind of bum? Rush, Walter yet in a cough. Who was the head of Columbia records at the time and what's left out of the movie, but in your book is you had just been there. Earlier couple of days earlier, something and basically convinced getting a cough to give you and Bob hundred thousand dollars to or support, which was unheard of at the time. So that's why yet a kind of gives you a look and says, oh, it's you, you know, and you said I brought a friend this time because you would just somehow pulled off that which is pretty impressive. You read the book and I eat the book and what happened was before I said to the way who runs? Bob's business off. So I said, I wanna go up to Columbia records in meet with the president lose the president crumby records. I had no idea. I was name. And I just do that was problems. Wave loyal and I'm gonna see if I can get some tour supports. He's well they don't do that. She said I tried before. I said, well, go to try again and she just laughed at me. She didn't have with me. She wrap that, like I was naive. This to guy from Duluth that didn't know how the entertainment business work, you know, and I was, but I got a hundred thousand bucks. So if she gave me the number I called up tacky was assistant Cobra was asked if I could come see world so we could coordinate this upcoming tour with Columbia. And so I went up there, we had this meeting, which is in the book, but not in the movie, and I guess, the best way to put it in, in straightforward terms is I should come down for a hundred grand to support the tour because he didn't wanna do it. That's fine. You could do you don't have to. But if you if you're not gonna support five on the store, 'cause this is not a money toward, this is people tour, which is going to be good for Colombia's. Well, I said, that's fine. But don't expect any itinerary for us where we're going to be, don't expect any tickets in those days. The label handle tickets Jay's for sure. And yet, the cough, I've read his book. He was a tough character. So I think he deserves congratulations for that one. So Louis Kemp. Bob's old friend has a new book coming out called Dylan me fifty years of adventures, and you're captured a little bit in Scorsese's rolling thunder revue was good to get some of the actual story and Louis thanks for being with us. So I wanna take a moment and talk about bits seats staying at home is great. But eventually, you just gotta get out of the house. Whether you go out to see your favorite band, go cheer on your favorite team in person, we gotta go to the house. You gotta have a night out and vivid seats. 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Vivid seats make a member that lasts a lifetime. Let vivid seats we get to your favorite level. This is Rolling Stone music now in the studio with Andy green, and we're talking about Martin Scorsese's, excellent new documentary about the wrong thunder review with Bob Dylan. And a unique cast of all star guests, we have one of them with us right now the legendary Roger Mcgann of the birds. Hey, how are you? I'm doing great. How are you doing? Not bad. Thanks so much for being here. So others obviously a lot. We could talk about with you. But I guess the subject of the moment is the rolling thunder revue, and you and Bob were obviously always close and just not long before this, you would just recorded with him. You were knocking on heaven's door. But how did your involvement with this particular tour come about? How did you get involved? He came over to my house and we were talking, and he said he wanted to do something like a circus. Bob Dylan saying you want to do something like a circus, like something different. You know, like, wow, man. We're going to do something interesting to that was only said about it. And then I was on with. My dad, I had some dates sports in North America. And I had a couple of weeks off. So I went to the village I used to live, and I loved it, and I was hanging out in rented Hillary Sloman. We went to Chinatown and had some Chinese food. And he said, I think that the other end, well, let's go see, so we went to the other end, and Jacques Levy, and Bob weir in a back room. And they were drinking brandies and, you know, they got up and said, hey, Roger, we're just talking about you and the drinks went flying like an old, western movie, putting this tour together, and we'd like to go out on it. I said, oh, man. I don't know. I can't I got all these dates booked with my band. Didn't wanna get sued by the promoters, ten the next day Resto called up and said remember last night. And I said, yeah. Well, you turn Bob going down for a tour that wasn't a real good idea. I said, you're right. You're right. So I called it my agent and postponed, the date that I had booked with my band, and I approve only thunder it was one of the best two months vacations and, you know, like parties I've ever been to it's funny. You mentioned Jack leave in one of the interesting things about the documentary is that it introduces people like that never identifies them for an audience, who might not know who they are. In Jack, obviously was doing a very interesting thing, which is that he was co writing lyrics with Bob Dylan. And that's what you know, the songs on the desire. Well I thought it was great. You know, the work they did together was a fan of shocks, right? 'cause he like chestnut mare, shock and I wrote together. And so, you know him Bob book from and I, I was really, really enamored with thought that was wonderful and Ishak was the musical director, on bowling thunder, something. He didn't really get credit for in the safety film, didn't give him credit for what he was doing. But he was in a lot of things I was just looking through got it on final. Pro and I was just looking through frame by frame to quite a few pictures of jock in there. But maybe once or twice they give a little visual credit to shock leading, but he did a lot. He was the guy who kinda define the show figured out who's going to go on win and what songs they were going to do and shock. And I even wrote songs on the tour that I ended up doing in the show eventually so he was a big part of it. And our member, a talking to sun Gillian. You're saying, oh, you know, it's all the movie really missed more of shock. So that's something jacket come to you. He was doing like a theatrical project, and that's we're testing American from. And that led to Bob's collaboration with Jack exactly he showed up at the trimmer need, and he had just heard the bird sweetheart of the rodeo, and it gave him the idea of doing our country musical that he was going to base. Loosely on hundred hundreds pure can't which is very bizarre. Combination ideas. But who move it from Norway in the eighteenth? Forties to the western United States. And this is seen impure get where he goes off a cliff on the ranger. And so we moved that to the western United States, and the lead character cliff on a chestnut mare just use advertising to give a plug for the birds untitled album, which is a really unique and slightly. Maybe underrated birds album that I've always loved. And that's on there, along with lover of the bio, which is another Jack leave the club. That's a absolutely. We do that sort of on the late Dr John the night tripper, and we go up and. Yeah. So it was catfish Pyan agree bag. I'm the lover of the by trying to get that imagery, Louisiana, kind of a small thing going. And then Tom petty did a great cover of that with mud crabs. I think, yeah, I got him a couple years ago when but Kutcher appearance New York, and I said with a couple of nights at the Webster hall, I think it was, and it was fun. I've gotten slightly field from rolling thunder, but how could I not with Roger Maguire on the phone? In fact, let's hear just a tiny bit of love around the by your hockey not. Tell me about the first couple nights in the tour and just getting into realizing what it was gonna be. Like, what was all that, like, okay? Well, we're all hanging out at Gertie spoke city and then we went up to Ginsburg apartment, and we were hanging out there and playing some songs. And let's just sort of jam. And then we went to s I r and we started rehearsals, but they weren't really rehearsals, more more jam sessions, and he dissemble scarlet and had Howie and rob stone or all these guys and make and so bizarre. It was just really fun. I mean everything about it was fun and shock whistle on that Ginsburg's apartment. And we were all just hanging out. It was just great. And then as far as like the actual tour and, and the way the performances went and the way the camaraderie developed all that work. Well, we, we got on these different vehicles. I think Bob this Cadillac Eldorado that he liked to drive. He'll have a motor on the intro. Around in, and we had a GMC motor called the green machine. It was really fun. And then we had Frank office bus called Fido, which was spelled like the French way and it was one of the first tour bus if I ever seen that was equipped with Sweden in the back and bunks in the middle and couches the galley, and was had TV's. And it was really amazing. We bombed up the east coast, and we went to Plymouth, and the, the lead to roll turning stone, beautiful well Matic, and it was just really fun. It was just really fun. What kind of stuff were you playing on the tour? What was your little settlers like, well, played chestnut mare, and then shock and I wrote a phone call. The jolly launcher I was doing that. And I was doing eight miles high and Joan bias come out and dance with me on eight miles high. And that was mazing 'cause it was so uncharacteristic of Joe. And I mean you think Chris, like the folk music concert of Missouri conservative fade, but she can. She's doing what these really wild dances with me. And it was great. It was. And we were all hanging out in the bucks after the show. I remember Joni Mitchell was long and she's writing songs. She wrote a song called Coyote, and there was a scene in the. Yeah scene in the movie where we're Gordon Lightfoot house. And she showing the song Bob and me and or kind of keep up with her, and it was about them shepherds. She just had a little fling with him, and it was her breakup on. It's funny because the guy in the song is presented is like a rancher not a playwright but close enough. Yeah. We were just talking Louis camp about were Bob's head was at during that tour. I mean you've known Bob many phases. What did you make of where he was personally inartistically at that point on that tour at never seen him happy, he was really happy? Great time saying what folks on they wanted to sing, and he was at the top of his game, as vocals, were excellent with was is playing great guitar and the ten piece band that is symbol with real having some phone issues. Andy, my favorite part of the home movie. I was going to say was Patti Smith. Yeah. And it's funny somehow the chronology is hard to get in your head that there's Patti Smith when you're still kind of in the industry mode ran new star courses by then it had just come out and choose a new hot thing. But it was a real generational thing. 'cause she was like the new guard down. You know, and Dylan was the old man like thirty four or there's an extraordinary performance. By her. You're watching the performance and the camera very fortunately at the end kind of like pans over to a deep in thought Dylan. You know, it's in the implication, I think within the movie, and I think, in reality is that helped him raise his game to see somewhat like a young gun up, and he really respected, Patty and they stay closed for a long time. He brought her on her first comeback tour were in ninety five and really nurtured her this thing that absolutely crack me up. And I think it's my actual Fairmont in the whole movie is when had to start on absolute flight of fancy poetry, when they're just in conversation. She's talking about like a diamond on baseball diamond in roles and the kids, roll the diamond around, and she just goes in this rap and out poets Bob. She out Dylan's him. And you can see him being with this is what it feels like. She's just being so freaky, that he was the square one in that moment. He could I think anyone else that would have annoyed him. But instead, he was kind of impressed. Yeah, it sort of reminded me of the scene in. Doc, not rises. When when cat woman disappears bama's like the so that's what that was like it was exactly like, so I think we have Rodger macgowan back. We do. Hey, Roger Hello. I'm here. Hello. I'm seeing where Patty's on stage at folk city and she's talking about this Archer. He goes into different dimension than she's a wrapping like crazy. Wow, man. That did not do. It's it's far out in and you could tell Bob was really admiring it. But and, and speaking of the movie Roger now, the first time that you saw did you know that there going to be weird actors in it, that were toned fictional stories or did that just blindside? You totally. I said, I didn't remember Sharon Stone being, I think I would've remembered or on the tour. The website and had all the things that were real, and that was one of them in the what's his name van then or. Yeah. Mid was husband right, right? Until he's making all this stuff about how he shot the be will and used as money to do it and all that. Yeah, pretty interesting. And then he was worried about me bugging him. I used to have some more or less. Mike's and come under the bed. You know, some places just for fun. Oh, wow. So Bob was onto something there. Yeah. Yeah. He knew about that. So how'd you feel about Scorsese's choice to put actors in the movie that were telling stories about the tour that weren't real? No. I liked it. I really amusing and thought a spike whole thing up. It's not just a documentary about tour. It's got some fictional stuff. That's interesting. I thought it was interesting. How well overall did you feel it? Captured the whole thing. I thought it did great. I thought they cut Bob at the top of this game is really in grade us really playing. You know he was happy. I mean what can smiling Bob's that? You see that think that's not always the way he would when he's onstage. So I thought it was wonderful and Scarlett for their an a Bobby newer as a psychic, and rob Steiner that a great job. He's really wonderful. Bob, obviously had a lot of modes as still does. And, you know, there's a lot of the sort of trickster and him. And there's a lot of sort of evasiveness, and it seems like it's always hard to get like a straight answer had of him. And how. Often were you able to just kind of have a straight ahead conversation with him in your time with especially during the appear and how often were they're kind of like games being played or something off going on? I was able to communicate with them pretty well used to come over to my house. When we both look in the and, you know, we've played guitar and it was pretty straight ahead conversation. It wasn't like a kind of tricky different games on and I'm member. He took me for a ride in this motorhome that it's the one where he said, I hope we make it to Boston on time. It's like that it's just me and him in the front of the motorhome, and he's wearing dark, sunglasses and prescription sunglasses. And it was getting dark out. It was interesting. But we have good time and he was very nice. You know we got along. Okay. So what do you think he was getting out of that tour? What was making him happy about it? Well, I think it was the antithesis of tour he'd just been on with twenty thousand seaters and kind of big business. Paul Rapoport from plenty of records, was a guy who told me Russia. There's always been a balance between art Artan palm RAs and in nineteen seventy five the commerce was overtaking the art. There wasn't a whole lot of art out there. And so Bob was trying to put the art back into it. And that was what the whole thing was about. I think it's a pretty important point, because right and seventy five the business was becoming as corporate as ever been. And, you know, he'd just done the age of the big money tour was there, the tour he had done with the band, which I actually had his merits. I loved the live album from it, but was kind of a modern tour, you're being whisked from arena to arena and whisking piles of money along with it. But rolling thunder was a return to. At the risk of being cliche. It really was a return to some of the idealism of the sixties, or at least the dream of the sixties, and I wonder how conscious you guys were of that as an idea for the thing that occurred to me after the fact, but love to every part of it was fun for me. And it was the village. It was like the days in early sixties where we were hanging out at coffee houses and passing the hat around, like, the, you know, the gaslight and different coffee house. It's kept wants to, you know it's like that it was that feeling and then we went to Ginsburg apartment in the village and hanging out and Helen wanted to be a rockstar, you know, he was thinking and two niece playing guitar behind him. And you know, just having a blast and everybody was loving it, especially bomb. What did you make of the sort of thing between him and biased both musically? And then there's this scene in the movie that was done for, like, we're not on Clara, clearly, where everything they're saying is factually accurate, but they're also clearly not it's not a real conversation. I mean these are people who had. An intense musical relationship had had an intense romantic relationship. God knows what was actually going on the tour as well. It's just a complicated things. So what did you make all that unwanted and seeing all doing clearer a number of times? And, and Sarah was really a good sport about playing you know, she's the lady, in white then shown was lady in white, you didn't know which, but when Bob and shown plays together and saying together, it was like old times, and there was chemistry that you hadn't seen it a long time. And I think there was forgiveness. There was like, you know, you might have broken my heart but I forgive you love. You anyway. And you know, it was a really good feeling. So do you think Renaldo and Clara is sort of unfairly maligned as a movie? Well, it's was really long. I. So it was hard to sit through but for me it was home movies. I knew everybody in it, and then all the locations and I enjoyed it and there's some really good performances in it. And I think safety really got some good stuff out of the footage that was shot and as I was saying that Bob was really at the top of his game. Vocally instrumentally and mentally. I mean he was just having so much fun with it, and, yeah, Renault them Claire was a little tough to sitter and view on seventy six to or also. 'cause I've heard that was a bit less fun in the spirit of the whole thing was redacted by seventy six I was I was on that. And we played the astrodome and Houston with others. Yeah, and Willie Nelson was on stage and I did know Willie Nelson at the time. I don't think he knew who I was on the same microphone and we're like, like, who are you? What are you doing now? Seventy six feel different because you're playing big venues, it's sort of not the sort of the of the gypsy caravan, thing of seventy five. Wasn't free-flowing thing that we before I understood because spotted money we did. It was arts everywhere we went through a hundred people on the road, you couldn't sit him into a regular hotel. They were first class resorts with, you know, golf courses, and twenty and man, he's spent a fortune on the first leg of rolling thunder, and it was a great pleasure to be on it, but he had to recoup the money somehow were you like paid for the first portion of rolling thunder. I'm genuinely wondered because I'm not sure how organized like a business proposition. It wasn't in seventy five I made a deal, like for a bulk amount up front. You know, they're gonna pay me so many thousand dollars. I'm going to do the shore. Gotcha. Gotcha. I asked his early. I mean, what were some memories of that tour that weren't in the movie that you might sort of wish that they were as far as the Scorsese movie from the things on the bus? I don't think he'd got that feeling on, Fido. I remember Ellen Ginsburg was quitting smoking any Britain, appalling about it. And he's doing this whole thing. Then tone was interviewing rambling tack Elliott, and he was doing these things from the movies, and he's going through a whole rap session. I things that didn't get in there, but I remember very well. In fact, I made a tape recording with a cassette recording of, of rambling doing this whole thing, and I gave it to Jeff Rosen, but didn't end up in the thing while on a side note the theme song for easy rider. We were talking about doing collaborations. I mean, technically speaking those cloud version between you and Dylan. Is it true that he brought out first verse and said, give it to mcguigan what to do with it. Exactly. Peter, flew to New York. Screened the movie for Bob and hoped. He would write the theme song and didn't like the ending. He didn't like the Peter and Dennis died. He thought there should have been some retribution. They should have been different ending. So he wrote let's see the river flows, close to the see where that really goes. That's why I wanna be. So it was on the paper napkin, Peter flew back to LA came over to my house, and it was like the holy grail. He wants to have this man. And I got my guitar out, I made up a tune. And it came up with the last first all they wanted was to be free. And that's the way it turned out to be. And Dennis, hopper say, hey, man. What's that supposed to mean all they wanted to be free? And that's the way it turned out to be. And I said Dennis think about anyone. Oh, wow. Man. That's really heavy. Right. He was right. What did you make of the song hurricane in the hurricane Carter, part of the whole thing, because it was certainly an injustice in the, it's great that Bob got involved with that. I was thinking, though. I mean of all the injustices, there have been before. And since it's interesting that, that one caught his interest so strongly because it's not like he's been dipping back into protests pre to regularly. So it really caught us. Fascination what did you make them? How did you come to understand that really noble? Shockley boxing fan as well. I think they would it together doesn't. They did. Yeah. Yeah. And we went to the prison where her team was, and we did a set for them. We put a show for them and you know it's a very nice thing to do for the guy did get him out. Right. Got him off the out of prison. Yeah. Yeah. And they benefited Madison Square Garden, too. I thought it was really a noble effort, and I thought scarlet Rivera, and I know a bit about her, but she came off as quite a fascinating figure in the documentary, if she had been a fictional character. She would have been a much more wild invention than some of the actual fictional characters in the movies. What did you think of hers she seems incredible? And it will scary. I choose a little scary, too. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I remember scarlet was doing some stuff, and she was into sort of, like central real, or, you know, like some sort of spiritual thing, but it's not two years Christianity. It's something else, and keep on people sitting next to be on the bus and going, oh, man. This is the bus to hell. A bus ride to hell T-Bone was, I think committed Christian already? We're you already at that point was that was at, at that point. I wasn't many, many roads. The mountain that it's all good that you could go like it'd be a Buddhist or whatever, and it was all fine. I didn't deny Christianity, but I didn't it wasn't specific, and it wasn't until later that I got into that after Elvis, Presley died, I started reevaluating my circumstances. They went down. I clean up my act a little bit here and it's kind billing is a piano player. He prayed with me. And he said, you know, do you believe in the power of prayer? And I said, yeah, any prayed with me and nothing happened right away. But a couple of weeks later, I was feeling horrible kind of anxiety. And I said, oh, God. How can I keep from feeling this and got my spirit? Well, you could accept. Jesus went, okay? Dammit lifted off and I've been better ever since. That was my story. Yeah. T-bone. Bob, Bob, I believe David Mansfield and even souls, as well all except to Jesus, which is strange. I mean this whole thing in unclear whether down on Wall Street is guy preaching standing on top of of cards, something like that. Wow. That's interesting that he was doing that. I think it's assisted is a little bit of a little Christian reference that always struck me as a premonition of the future. But anyway, we could talk all day, but we're hitting the end of the show. Raj McGowan, thanks so much for being here. I hope we can do this again soon. It was incredible show is great to thank you. All right. So this is been today's Rolling Stone music now. I'm brian. Hi. Those in the studio with the Andy green, we'll be back next week here on Sirius XM's vying to six the meantime, we are a podcast. Download us is podcast where every game podcast eighty nice review on itunes these Ken and as always, thanks for listening. We'll see next week. Panoply.