Creating environmentally-friendly athletic apparel, Tim Christian of OORR
The product startup episode fifty. Tim Christian shares how he started. Oh are a cycling apparel brand that uses recycled fabric. Hi Hi everyone and welcome to. The product started podcast where we talk about turning ideas into successful products. step-by-step I'm Phillip Alita. And thanks for listening today. And the last the episode we talked to Giuliana got is with a Houston Angel Network about the process of Angel Investment. So make sure to check out episode forty nine if you WanNa behind the scenes view uh of that process before we get started. I wanted to highlight one reviewer on items stray oh this is fantastic. PODCAST with a wide range of interviews dealing with with product development and startups. Every interview is a gold mine of information. Thank you and please keep up the good work. Hey thank you stray. Oh and everyone else for taking your your time from your day to leave a review and share the podcast with your friends if you've just joined the podcast and you're getting started. Make sure to check out episode ten. I have an idea now what it basically talks about the process of validating your product ideas where we confirm our audience and test to make sure that it will sell you. Also get into you. What the value of an idea is why aren't ideas worth much? And the importance of execution and what it does to help us reduce risk and add value and we also talk about out creating prototypes on any budget using what we have and learning how to make simple conceptual and functional prototypes ourselves. Thanks to everybody. That's joined the product startup workshop. Our private it at facebook group where we meet and collaborate on ideas lots of people working on some interesting things if you haven't checked it out yet already. Search for the product startup workshop on facebook or go to the PROC STARTUP DOT com slash group and you'll be redirected so now on today show. Hi Tim thanks for joining us. Today I fell. Thanks very much for having hurry having on Yom really excited to talk about this because you've got a interesting product. Your company produces odorless Jim tops and pro cycling gear made with coffee to talk about that It's yeah it's an interesting being lights to get a a point of difference in a very saturated market August. Yeah that's about as much as I can give you advice condemn. The coffee was an idea but I was running fought. Catalog is an easy of eventually dug into my subconscious unconscious and the product. You mentioned that you Kinda dug into some of the issues that you had before. What made you think that there was a gap in the market? Like you said the the cycling market seems to be really competitive I was a casual mountain biker before had a family and there's just so much gear out out there for cyclists companies coming up with their own stuff. I just seem so noisy. I'd be afraid of the van entering the market. Why did you say hey? You know what I've got this different opinion on it. uh-huh all you'd be was fried. It is very saturated There's a lot of noise to be recognized. didn't thank Debbie any point trying to compete on a level playing field all kinds against some some of the major or even the supplies. So I think the best way to interact with that is to create your market and United Nations where I saw a gap will that potential flaws in environmentally environmentally friendly crops. That I've gone into the planet and what's available. Say Maan nine sort of. I guess he's in trying to make things benefits in some way or another and to my knowledge at the time there was nothing on the back of the lock that uh nothing credited recycled materials Barak materials having a couple of bamboos around. That was GONNA be. Let's interesting that you would take. Take on the flip side. Though targeting to an audience that is usually more earth conscious. UNICYCLISTS tend to be the type of people at least in mountain biking. You have trail days days where you come in and picks up the trail and you give back to the environment that gives you that joy. I know at least for road cyclists. That are a lot of people that are more conscious about out in a desperate run reasons that they commute back and forth to work on a bicycle is because of the fat connection to the earth So that's an interesting tip that people wouldn't normally think that. Hey you know the year that I need to use also has to subscribe to those values. Everything you do has some impact and you know the time when you get on your. You're trying to escape the city or get out into the fresh air and out into the environment you love love and it's kind of taking that extra step I guess if you want to contribute to that environment Damages matched by but taking than. That's spurlock. How did you go into creating your first product? What was the first product you made in? How did you create that prototype? The first practice on I Komo Lots of mistakes with it. It's still in the end. It stole ten. That's a pretty good product But it was a hot ride and I learned a lot along the lied It it was just a software jazzy full and on lots and lots of talks by simply going triggered on a small production run. And it's a wintry sniper the fest products off I went through ivory dozen sample runs with different with with ever dozen manufacturers sonnen lots of protons the trick was funnier at manufacturer and pulling all places patent making in February. Ken Oletta. Did you have a background background and pattern making before you even started this nice ally by conducted a survey that fully but I didn't have strains in any over the defensively pulling experts pets from the field and raising him on what Mark Llamas were an academic united press walking through the process within a long life. So it's kind of exercising project management rather than may develop him on Moscow's town you learn a lot as h he front area so as I said I wanted to To the popular products and to do that on basin AK friendly fabrics so I had to start with the fabric and Xitong Sean funds a manufacturer that today's job of constructing the common. Yeah so the cover Janney he was was all about finding the right people and creating a February him if every versus a lot more challenging and I am anticipated. Actually so when you first started you you created the pattern I with the fabric i. It was kind of a parallel thing in parallel. And when you started looking at manufacturers now if people can't can't tell you're over in Australia so imagine you're looking at manufacturers that were over in the Asia part of the world that right I love everybody man all of them a choice that on an strategy because The initial vision I had for the business. was everything in Australia to be really very self sufficient I I guess. A lot of countries with the sign and the global train that sort of everything's going into Asia. They were refused of small manufacturers. leptons job at Tom. None of them to uninformed seduce I ended up setting further onto New Zealand Fiji to America and China and India. Yeah so I looked at all these different. Tom Manufacturing hubs and I settled in China or the the gunman construction and in New Zealand for the fabric construction but the yawns from the side Yon from New Zealand. The fabric was made and then every shift to China and taught them constructive gallons. That's really complicated route. What's the reason for staying in the US for the yarn? It had to be recycle John. And there's a company in the US Code Unified Recycled Hussy Don or his pockets arena. Voice is basically just pay and they bragged data recycled an infinite number of on the talk quality without any degradation in in quality each time so basically a new Grad authentic fabric problem or software materials. That are vegetarians. And didn't INSANI point in February queeg materials when the other option was available. So I've gone back to your question. The basically the industry standard in soccer polyester. Oh yesterday's made by that company uniform which is based in America based you know the most well recognized and certified for Sahgal Boyega and it seems like after. You're making this whole journey throughout the world is near the trip that this yarn takes your costs might not be any different than might actually be more than just purchasing virgin materials feels that right The cost is definitely via with you whether it travels over. Doesn't it's still high because it's unfortunate ways it's made in locomotives and there's less demand for Dr Ryan Eventually that change the amount of manufacturing processes the guy into Virgin Polyester Why the Amanda Manufacturing Processes going to making software is nine prices guy making news from Dying for oil out of the ground and ends They've already been tending to pay. Tayside must have already been done that he says very steps deb's left in a way. It's just a matter of time until the recycled material that you're using now ends up being cheaper because oil and gas is going to continue to increase in price in the next twenty thirty years. Yes exactly and and my visits have with Education Ozzy get an identical product Sokoll materials that They'll be more with him on that as well so I notice that your pricing compared to some US pricing is a bit higher than what we're used to here. I've you confirmed that people are willing to pay a little bit more to get that recycled material into something. That's more ECO friendly and in line with their values. It's hard to process across the cross will not because of currency fluctuation sure The intention of the process is to Just below the sort of the high end for us that are about the stymied neither the wrappers in the Allston Castilian. That sort of stuff. said the intention is that it's it's cheaper than for us and if you read any of. The reviews abused on bought. The experts actually believe the practice at least as good is that is brands so by Tanis to offer a viable alternative facts friendly. Today's Today's premium for something was justice. Go to bed and so let's pick up your story where you left off. You were working with said about twelve manufacturers or so to come up with that ideal prototype. How did you get that from that point to placing order for your larger manufacturing? Ron Like what did you do to validate that. There's enough demand in the market and maybe even get some pre orders to make sure that it it worked. Well that's the thing that that was one of the mistakes on actually so I just was more of a latest. I you know I believed in it for us and gone down. The path of there was nothing stopping me. I was gone does regardless us so I just got it out. The started providing Styles not not a lot of keeping shoes but known brilliant after ten of profitable to recover your cost just a reset in started again. I would go back to the drawing I did. I did all I regain changed. The model has started producing the coffee. Gammons the heel toe. He then NASA didn't have the coffee in them and the completely different in a in every way and and the fabric is now by long night in Ucla hits. It's all night in the problem. I had with getting on for America's standing to New Zealand then standing in February to China was the cotton uncovered the cotton the Gannett's themselves after flying shipping. Things alive zones. Definitive is trying to make something more friendly so yeah undecided to try and centralize everything so nobody cut down on cost. BIDDLE side cut down on carbon emissions of getting everything into the factory and and so that also precise mock and mock it proof. Monday good idea as well as the BIZ. Model for that in my opinion was to go to Keith stopped up to the roof. Yeah and that's interesting because a lot of times people will start with the kickstarter but they might not have a large enough audience and sometimes the kick starter doesn't fund all the way because they don't get that that WHO said that they expected. What type of audience would you have coming into it? How big is your audience? And how has your kickstarter done. I see that you've been able to presell a fair bit of product. Kim almost three hundred pieces. I think Yeah there were one hundred seventy on bacchus okay but my back is pledged for more Lamont Gavin Psychic. I'm still waiting on the final numbers. Come in Zainy Basically descent Mohan kinks out are up top and then pick people tight. It's on getting the resolves bacteria but Sandra yet at the Gallons tonight from the audience. That's that's a warning for anyone who food is considering guiding cakes dot up. He's basically permit. You'll doctor your video. who campaigned at all out really is he's just a platform feed highest derived? So if you don't have your own traffic control your entropy to kick gigs Going to be doing in full you on a United Melissa's might not know that side. That was something that always made aware of fool is thought of it. Sounds like something simple but yet died. This guy got kicked out the great idea and think that it's going gangbusters because five endless you make it happen and and get your on traffic anyway. Actually I had a small audience of mine. Previous customers us from the initial product. And they're all committed vans basically of over the brand just to have the kickstarter foamy and uh-huh Iran some facebook marketing campaigns had some influences pointing towards the campaign as well so I probably the the most powerful thing indeed was arena a- competition around a few competitions but the one of them is a a facebook competition to encourage people to sign up within the email address email list prior to launching a campaign and that was probably the draw of traffic tools the became pine at self offend those. I got people on the right to learn about the about before campaign as they've been village. Yes talk about that a little bit. I think people struggle with creating enlist because it's just so hard to get traffic on anything. Now there's so many competing products on the market and so much noise out there and it's really hard to stand apart So it feels like you have to spam. I am all your friends and family to get that initial hit and even then sometimes people you know so in a way that works sometimes because people that know you best are the ones that are going to be even you the most but It's also hard to kind of get that traction were there any any tips. You can share to help. Create that list for prelaunch yes your friends and family as he'll begin against spreading lots of maple shade for you and that sort of thing and as a result of that comfortable in China or something on on my friends and family so do you do it but it was very gentle. Approach by design is what Dan you know. Check it out if you think it's cool and not really appreciate your posse on that says advice flies. Dave is a win for the the building. visit really cool school in facebook advertising that he can catchily added lay generation. Foam where you capture to that laid the email address from facebook itself. So that I'd have to click. A link can go out of facebook generation early gathering page. It's literally literally at a little cough up. That happens when I click on your ad and like you just put their email address in and and they and they still keep scrolling on the forward. I found the ad so that was how did at but the getting painful to I've been impressed by so their email. Oh just in. That's the that's the tree and you basically have to offer value to the to the frozen. Why are they gonNA So if there's not value then they're not going to do it is to be something for them for a business. The best way to do that is offered pro rata competition you it getting the joy to win a fight about this new product launching. And your chance to win one of these. Perhaps it again produced juice. They have one of those people in the world to to get his for free. Yeah that's how I do often free stuff you know. And that's a huge cost and for some products products. Maybe especially for yours. Do that was worth it. Then it was. I guess cheaper to do that then paying for paid ads which I guess you did anyway through the facebook leads platform like you mentioned mentioned. The pilots were were a cost The offering part wasn't a huge cost visit. Said Yonah draw to win so you have. It's an essentially not everybody signing up gets a free product town. I mean yeah that that would be a control on that so tell me how you were able to hone in on your audience. I guess because your audience is very specific. You're offering it for cyclists with facebook. You're able to do this some really fine targeting with that I know for example with the product startup audience. My audience is just crazy broad and so I have a really hard time doing anything that with targeted ads. Because I've got a mentors that listen and small business owners that listen some of them. Listen to podcasts. Somewhat Shark tank. And if you try to date. This is all encompassing audience in facebook. Your cost per click is just going to be insane. You'RE GONNA be paying way too much money and not the right. People are going to be seeing or add. That's a hard one on for me. It's a lot easier than it is. You're automatically just just. Sean had random audience as well. The can really drill down university So the trick is still trying to get noticed. In the youth there's probably a few strategies the the tolls that are available advice for quite awful one of the things that would vade spring to mind. That would be really powerful. You would be dependent on your canal this already. Over your car follows site you can do look alike audiences heavy yet. We don't have a one percent Is if it's in the United States. He targeting for example I want Zanbaqa. Gordon's with between one and three million. And that's a pretty good sauce to Tanaka to the one million sauces causes sort of his ause so she already got the least. An is ever thousand faithful on the waist Then the local targeting gets pretty good bicycle ever them which will and you get a refund. You get a pretty good lead generation right out of that lookalike audience on then has revealed the Ryen late then Can they redone and again. You're more focused as you go. That's qualified to do it if you already have beauty's in the audience than have to get pretty Pretty Clever Mortis have done that. A little bit of experimented with the lookalike audience and it could be You know I think some. The people that listened to the podcast aren't always necessarily the ones that sign up for the newsletter. So if you're listening to this please sign up to the newsletter because you'll get a lot of valuable input and OUGHTA weekly tests. No that's very good point and so- congrats on being able to narrow that down your group and being able to have that those really targeted ads. I know that facebook leads platform is nice. Because they don't have that additional click to make like you said and even foregoing that additional landing page that people have to land on to fill out their email address. Just just that one step means huge conversions because I've done it the other way around browse driving it to landing pages back before the lead. ADS came out. And you you lost thirty. Fifty percent of the people just threw that one click then is low and I notice that you've got a lot of athletes that have received received view copies of your merchandise and they put up some favorable reviews. I know a lot of the other people that have been on. The show here have used influencers before to help them with their marketing. Talk a little bit about that. How was your strategy and getting that going? I didn't have a specific strategy. Have views of things running os building March Sweden follow science on and A few of the context might on twitter so I noticed that an athlete would follow me on twitter. Hopefully brand on twitter came across plus all that any any financially on you will Or appropriate that play would follow the brand on twitter Autzen of a direct message siege inside. Hi Wow you know. Look I'm really flattered and humbled luck the brand whatever and I'm just that citation for them and then done generally but I didn't have contractual obligations to to wear certain Todd Tarot then Duffy stocked to get braced off for me. So that's KINDA ON A. How did it on twitter? There was another at used on my IPAD. Tiny available on apple devices brand snow so Branston divisively eprivacy rifle. Up is a few of the verandah similar infected to sign up to another one last night which I forgot. Quyen ranch moments it's Khanna Black. Come Tinder teamed up yes. That's what I was trying. I don't think of not that. I know what that is by the way. I'm just going to throw that out there. I don't know what I'm happily married man. Branch Novas Vince knows very similar. Tina's Slot Swath Alexa Lot rod and and that can help you get in touch with influences as well and just tagging table you think synthetic tikos. I'm Komo think might be interested in your product so if you are someone on on someone. Interestingly someone's report later in field then this I guess you can always try approaching gently lifted anything have a strong enough story gentle friendly enough attitude. I guess you can get some traction correct as well but generally not do that in this really is people that thing family. He'd have gone on Right what's up all the time. It's not like twitter where twitter you'll have random people you've never heard of just sending your DM's with Lincoln. It's like you want to be added to my network and I don't even I've never met you before vice deny that you're just trying to sell them something right until about being with you reprise so a a lot of influencers especially if they're at the celebrity level wants something in return in addition to free product and I think at least from what I've seen the influencers that are at the early and middle stage stage of their influence or careers right where they might be semi celebrity status or less than celebrity status. They might only have. Let's say one hundred thousand followers or something like that. They're way way more inclined to get you know to produce a review in exchange for product. And it they probably would even from what I've seen again have better returns on your investment. Because they have a better connection to their people than some of these megastars that you would think you know that some some popular celebrity in your space who has five million followers if they just mentioned you once that might not really work as much or as well as Some of these smaller level influencers. That are easier to even approach de autograph everything you said Yup van that the the thankful with yeah I guess if you use a hundred thousand pump. The paper with less than a hundred thousand followers had much higher engagement. I think he got pointed. It's very hot to study guide with audience because of this. Probably it's not spoil them guy in the one hundred thousand but the people in that in that spice then still ovarian guides for the audience. I responded label when I brought to them on Instagram for example like that respond in a good story about like what it just generally mortgage with finesse when they feel like they know who the person with the neither one of Ben. That's basically what makes people more comfortable Louise listening to them and taking loss and bicycling advice on on the recommendation that I feel like I really not even more in touch with them. Then it's still the holidays to get that conversion. Yeah and that's interesting last. We left your practice element story here. You'd launch your kickstarter. Were there any parallel so that with with creating this connection with your backers that you've thought were really helpful. That helped him campaign. was there any techniques that you use maybe certain types of video certain types of ways of connecting with your audience. That really helped to get some of that response that you were looking for you know. For example. Some guests that have been on the show have said that the life style video that shows the product in use have fared a lot better than the making of video which used to be a really popular way behind behind the scenes. How this is made is now maybe second in popularity to You know show me a a one minute. Cut of the various ways of using this product brought brought back. I am well I need one. Video had very limited budget and it was just a Three minutes of what I've done in one st for match wjr and within the various lost all shots and there was a looking into you stall shot of me talking to the camera sort of telling people about what I Donovan thought. It was good thing. And why did you help Zaid. That was kind of the anti but I really have a comparison any anything to sort of cross US reference that we will go aside Data leave the China proacting use as opposed to being might. It is but Yeah I haven't I haven't moved onto that those videos or anything yet fair enough. Where any lessons that you've learned that you can pass onto other people about the kickstarter campaign that You know the were really helpful for you to kind of close those last minute deals. Did you find that you had a surge of funding funding towards the end during the beginning or was it pretty even along the way did you have to tweak anything along your campaign to kind of get more performance out of the IT'S A. It's a long road I'm Mark Campaign was thirty days. I think that's a bad Everett's might be on the lowest average for the length of a campaign but the same guys on river. And that's what's prompting you'll saw from. The Assad is mice short old showed enough if he does too long. It's caught up to the the excitement even interesting. What's really go to bed? Running kicks out of campaign is is the sense of urgency that you really creates and that sense of urgency. The fact it's gotTa find out here. It'd Maine's that people have to act now. The guy to miss out on the offer if without that agency then people decide that Or there's a lot less incentive for them to act. That can do it like if I want to make it now. So that's the benefit of running exotic campaign when you mentioned having a sense of urgency and I've also heard other people say that as well in terms of how they structure the product pricing for their kickstarter like they're trying to make some of these rewards to be enticing enough to where you know that this company isn't going to produce anything at that price level again and so you need to jump on it now because it's You know it's at least thirty percent offer. Whatever that is the retail price of? Did you find that to be true. Yes yeah once the crossing was gone there was a lot less interest in the product appetite for the yet those bill less people going to the side. I've seen a few Successful Cesspool campaigns where they were a few different ts Eliot crossing sided. Maybe three different levels as Birds Than Bird in Alabama and then takes that Mitch Discount to the retail cross. So yeah maybe having to tease of early Alibaba Eh and then the kickstart across at making very clear that the kick-started processes still saw discount from the end retail for us that was probably the Argumentation argumentation. I did notice. The initial interest is allies but the heat in the festive type is off quite a lot from the and that's due to the fact that you have all this hop around for launch and spans always paypal with a really interesting and you parked in February decided that I wanna Blat will contribute t project before you the motion. So you've seen all your all of your email list based in all of your facebook twitter. Follow everything to the campaign essentially launch it and Dave Logan Yep So once that initial surge is gone after the festival yet al as you try and find ways to take the interest gambling and get the campaign and taking along and that's what sort of surge isn't ascendancy But sort of not really WANNA run up to that campaign press d did some. After the first two days in why I can't from memory I think we got through two thousand dollars or something and after thirty days It finished it about forty three thousand dollars aside. There are still a long way to go after that first couple of days. That was definitely the fastest hurting period and the way to continued interest. Was a addict number of some of the campaign with some businesses that had followed in that space and Iran knocking campaigns rantings on facebook and had different influences pushing the product on the channels at various points throughout the campaign as swells Age should have one had its own little surge as went alone and by simply once a week on my realistic end citing you give them update and say hey. Can you go out there and push no. That's great great advice so I know when we first talked talked to for you to come on the show. You just finished wrapping up the campaign and you needed some much. Deserved are so now. You're going to be fulfilling. Some of those orders. Are you going to be fulfilling killing them yourself or do you have some third party film lined up. I've got potty go up I'm trying to build a business. That's his who one of a better word as automated as it's possible but I just had had rival. It's a fully automated prices because of WANNA lose touch with the customer but at at the moment is a as the sole trader by. WanNa keep the men els as low as possible thoughts manageable especially with full time day job. Yes right so if I and have the orders come in and medically guide to the performance way where the picked impacted shifts without having to actually really do anything. Then that's probably plan. So that's what I'm sitting up at the moment having Bat Contact Madonna lose touch point with the customer sales. Gallstone eight to add personalization in For the the way I'm doing it is still not what set in stone because I'm writing for those lost few records to come in and finish pillow in becket to tell. Tell me what I want and wait. I leave and things are once. I have all of the data house on either. The strategy that I'm going to take a few big shipment fulfillment businesses Mrs. That are getting used to handle everything but probably by tight that strategy of context in the United States and in the ACI and into Australia. I think I'll probably send them. Ole Ole two separate businesses denies countries with three main centres. Full Marcus activist when customers. Come from right yeah. So I'll have the impact in John Ineffectual where they might and then shipped shipped in bulk to the country's those guys and then fulfilled. Is the smaller house. Talk a little bit about your strategy. For how how many units are going to buy in the beginning as you mentioned that you sold about three hundred through your crowdfunding campaign But that might not be that that break even in point that you need to for a large order for the manufacturer to start the work. And I'm sure you'd want to sell some through your ecommerce site as well so talk a little bit about your sizing housing for first order and what you're basing on Zion. The kicks out campaign was to allow me to develop reproduce the coffee February. Tom I wanted to produce Janas have made the call the fabric polity credits on fats. It was in a trial. A trial fabric could of action which is a very small. Ron was any sort of fifty minutes of ever again saw and Zeiss. How much interestingly fabric manufacturer to produce the small runs Detects a Lotta time to sit up the the knitting and whatnot and once I've attended on attend all strata wise go fifty fifty February. I'm not very beneficial for them to do any. Any trial runs really any business US said the very limited on that though they'll do trial runs until eyesight on Don Jr.'s. Because his cost US money getting anybody. You gotta be right Few off at upheaval. The trial rounded student is not a cost-benefit Said I signed to a future. AUSE foyer then you have to produce Talwar Kicks that was too. I'm away to produce the fabric Grenada. and to produce it in a corner on edited to doing to actually the fabric by the fabrics thing night. Nail it's night in bulk so I'll have a sitting can produce the gallon of whenever on doing whatever of a quantity to produce and that's one of the advantages of money got any factors that are can produce one or I've been Virginia veils and it's not the deal That's great that especially with your sizing because you're going to have somebody different sizes between men. Women children exactly by offering children children sausages yet that Murray Jan attracted some damn saws. Extra smolder fought example as well because a lot of sprains than over boy but a in the lodge up to excel side. That's another nation market can take advantage of the plan is to because I'll have a fabric in all the equal promotions sitting in available ready to guard the planet's reduce basically ten fifteen percent more than the kickstarter order in it read sauce and and have that sitting ready together in the way houses. So that way I haven't bicycle ship cover the cost of title and win by knocking products. Online ecommerce off. Then I'll be out of the straightaway when I start to sell out then and that will trigger production of the mole. Talk about that a little bit with you. Know your route of size of the kickstarter order versus What you need to keep going? You mentioned that it's allowing you to purchase your custom material. That are you breaking even with your kickstarter campaign or is it basically and investment into a larger operation operation or are you even making a little bit of profit on it to where you can feed that back into the business now is the non as Don divisively gripe haven on producing reducing over Fabri and producing our. It's okay so that's that's where the numbers rats the findings once finished the case Outta garments. I will breaking even on the production and the production and then The the excess leased producing packaging redoing the website which I'm in the process of doing it and that sort of thing cy but when it's all said and done all gates who are those about the I'll have the fabric and out of that should be great Prophet Prophet but some either factoring posted. It'll be right now that's great. I imagine that as you're going through this process you've probably looked at various fulfilment methods. Like you said you've got places around the world to fulfil kickstarter now now your Your fulltime Philmont options and you looked at Amazon at all or are you know you know you're going to focus on your rolling your own e commerce store of Amazon John. It's not some. It's kind of big behemoth that I it's like Vadodara. Pocket Amendment is a lot of information at their bed. How best to sell and Amazon battle haven't read any and it's something that I don't have time to do it but I do? I've I've done a lot of reading about buying marketing learning about some full. That sort of things that Just running my marketing campaigns and Szeliga the drinking traffic to my any of still having said that It's ninety letter in the era of a look at them as well but At this point it'll just be mining. Still run on on looking at the two employs themselves reps and Ginkgo distribution partners. Yeah and some guests that we've had on the show had really great luck actually with employing commission only sales rep that represent similar products. Or they already have those types of connections in the industry and it would just be taking on your line and so so. In addition to mentioning other people's products whenever they make a visit to a buyer they would basically dropping worse. Yes that's the that's all before for a guy as thing I'll be seeing on is thompson strategies and it's a lot easier for me to have one thousand Celtic who various people London division honor who by one hundred gallons at the time then to seltzer different table absolutely itself yes. D'Amato was allowed because reading united middleman and whatnot had still Tan Benefit is still heavily widen in fibers selling them as opposed to one. Well Tim I really appreciate you showing your story you know as we walk through this half with you. You've definitely shared some of the et misteps along the way that you've had some struggles but also some of the huge wins and I think that's indicative of taking any products. Mark is that you're going to have to interrupt a bit. You know. Go back a a step forward a step. Can you share your parting tip for someone. That's kind of in the place that you were before you launch your kickstarter on that still kinda struggling struggling with taking their idea to market but a couple of tips rather don't say much but probably the easiest thing for me is on in the business to make profit in the business too nice to benefit more than just myself my business and my must strongly is that a if you're just in the business and just for money then try and integrate something industry in your strategy to benefit someone else. People are more willing. Not only businesses health will say Iran since obeying and your purpose that it definitely pies dividends and Milwaukee. The people are more willing to contribute to blaffer is or your practice actually doing something good. So my my practice All the most environmentally friendly harmfulness Powell said that some people consider giving Han. It's the my sacred family. Stop what we thought I also products Contribute to charities in Australia and in South Africa so I guess a tip is is that exactly in paypal among willing to say to you you money fueled by that is GonNa win more than just thus gone your pocket and the thought of that is there. Would you get from helping someone in charity Is You know it's more awarding in this getting in cash so as Muslim Croat tiffin. I'm sure One of the reasons for the success of the heat out of campaign as well because they were holender share because of his doing something for the planet good for the charity. The other is the test so the facebook marketing discussing cool. I used to program core at with that familiar with it. Yeah so aspects. I've had a university university in with I teach you how to use the tool knighted you techniques on how to refund your Odeon settle stuff you get a free that he dies Testing use you. Use the tool is the freight that he dies two on dual the university videos online. About and You can instead of inviting the facebook told us you can only do one at a time in espresso you can split test up to about one hundred fifty ads at once and I attack at the amount of time to build that one ad so offend that a really powerful tool for my facebook marketing and they also have people who help you refine your ads and give you tips on wife if things things our games and things odds and what you might do to refund your ads as well so that was a great tool and that -fensive that her helped a lot De ed Espresso Tim. Thanks a lot for all the tips that you gave us As people listen to you. I'm sure some of them are cycling. Go to the gym. They WANNA buy some the year. We're working they go to make a purchase you can guy to double double La Dot Com. Today you are are are well thanks again for coming on the show my pleasure having you on and thanks again for being so transparent and I hope to hear from you and six or twelve months down the line. We'd like to have you back on on the show and to give us a five ten minute update about what type of progress you've made especially in the B. Two C. E. Com space. Thanks I appreciate that. Let's come back Conan. That'll give me something to some accountability. Thanks very much hope that you enjoyed our conversation with Tim this week here. My three takeaways from the interview number one under stand your supply. Chain what path DEA. Raw materials take to get to the manufacturer. And how's your product made and shipped to your warehouse. If you can learn what entities are involved in your product. You'll be in a better position of influencing costs and setting up contingencies when emergencies. Come up number to build your customer list. Social networks come and go and in the case of facebook reaching your followers organically is getting more and more expensive as the network is flooded with noise. Create your customer list early on when when you first start to test the market and develop prototypes for your product. That way you can reach out to customers directly as your company grows and number three find a deeper meeting in your work work it will help push you forward when things get tough and customers will make a stronger connection with your brand. You don't have to change the world just your piece of it to quote Tim. It's more rewarding than getting cash. Of course if you'd like to get these takeaways in your inbox every week just go to the product startup dot com. Scroll to the footer and sign up to the weekly wrap up. At the end of every week you'll get my three takeaways for each guest along with interesting articles free tools and inspiring innovations to help you with to your own product startup. So join me next week. As I speak with Samantha and the lane from Midas Cup when they talk about creating an all natural alternative to coffee so make sure to tune in in next week to hear that episode and again check out the product startup workshop. Our facebook group that I created for you just to be and get help from other product founders like yourself go to the product star Dot Com slash group or search for the product startup workshop on facebook. So thanks again for joining me. I hope that you're taking action on developing helping your products. And I'll see you next.