Audioburst Search

Insects + Sleep

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

Bet Net flicker thing net flicks too and although Superhero Movies Contour has all the latest titles on demand Oh my grandkids love that this episode is brought to you by Cox with Contour TV from Cox you can find all your favorites all in one place. The Youtube University of Wisconsin the Cross my home turf Barrett Klein is joining me today thank you welcome back there has been listeners now are off hello everybody and welcome to the here we are podcast today we have episode number two with associate professor of animal behavior and entomology at the the standup science tour and falling behind on some of the behind the scenes administrative things of booking shows and stuff like that it's just such a fantastic guest so much fun such a great conversation to great conversations so if you didn't listen to last aged now where I can't get away with not exercising at least to do the things that I'm trying to do which are time consuming an ambitious and just require me operating at a higher level and so feels good to get back into it and hopefully nine one of my favorite guests I love insects by the way and one of my favorite things to learn about but also recommend doing that and yeah I apologized for being late this has posted this was supposed to be a bonus episode last week I got in many of them are maybe hearing this episode back to back but in our time there has been a a large chasm of time and in my case broke the camel's back and I just cut lapsed I just couldn't deal with anything podcast related I just been crazy busy on the habits that I built had way too much fun and was having trouble getting back into reality and and everything else so that's why last September's bonus episodes maybe you'll get a couple bonus episodes for October to make up for feeling good a just a offense that have happened since you and I talked but we had such a terrific conversation last time that I begged and I pleaded on contour TV from Cox starving lower body and welcome to part two of Barratt clive just been playing catch up on and have been overwhelmed and I've been having a hard time getting back into work mode ever since I spent a month in Europe and fell out of all the week's episode maybe I'd recommend going back listening to that one I rather than this one you don't necessarily have to but honeybees swarms a re queen event my Madagascar hissing cockroaches gave birth and that's only the beginning I mean there was part of the reason why there was some of a delay here but I'm thinking instead next week maybe I'll do a a bonus episode instead and then since we'll have met Eh hopefully getting some good habits built we will see but thank you guys for tuning in enjoy some insect talk abandoned a little bit of a funk lately anyway maybe I'll talk about it later maybe I won't but I got a cold is just annoying and it was just like the straw that just started working out again I'd fell fallen out of exercise and then everything else in my life seems to fall apart I think I'm just at the I walked in today and you got these high first off why don't more people have their hives and glass so they can check out the goings ons of of what's happening I think most people don't realize that it's feasible that it's possible now granted it's much more difficult to maintain safer we yes where are we here why are we here not entirely clear as by random chance apple if you want them to survive a winter it's an artificial situation to have just a sliver of comb sandwiched between two transparent media glass because if you were to open up a natural wild bee colony say a dark hollow tree then you'd see these parallel danced with no hint as to which post it's immensely bizarre we combs hanging from above now the reason why they're parallel forming kind of a ball has many benefits for the bees and one is thermal so it gets cold you can form this hot ball of bees contracting their wing muscles without flying and can rotate out so the cool ones on the outside become warm on the inside and switch positions now in just a flat observation hive you'd have to do something pretty special did with you to come back home to talk about life events happening in the interim I've had to title for them to over winter effectively that said if you're a season beekeeper if you work with a friend who's a beekeeper than it's pretty easy to swap what's in an observation hive with what's GonNa be art in your typical what's collapsed author other hive where you can have a series of frames that mimic natural them effectively and I hope I can watch them all the time but an observation hive instead of the black box that is a beekeepers bread and butter normal situation is is I mean you get some revelations about what's happening in the Sopa live in a hollow tree in a box in a wooden crate right piled on top of each other so my plan with his eight frame ops we're here and I mean your enthusiasm is obviously your default but because because a lot of people in my lab who might be interested in learning about behavior and studying honeybees for example is to say all right stunning behaviors and for everybody it requires a lot of opera of a colony when you watch them day by day yeah you're walking may through some of the trump as soon as I arrived you're just like quick get over and Green Orange for example or you put a little number tag you can in theory and I've done this with others before once mark a whole Colin deep and and you'll get better after a while but you have maintained your curiosity by constantly learning will what I tell students who come in patients for example to look at these individuals now one thing that can help is to grabby and put an individual paint mark on her so if you've got red yellow blue well whatever environment they're they're and they see the same thing you know it day in day out and they get these stampedes at I got a key survey Shen hive versus my we little more typical to frame observations you you're a pathetic I mean think about it in five six any individual ABC's then it gets really interesting because if even if you have a handful of individually paint marked bees then you get used to what they're doing over final behavior modifying parasites and having Read About A. B. Brain Fluke that needs to continue its life cycle in water it was at a beefeater a sugar water feeder out in the adirondacks state forest in New York and I would wait for bees to fly from their colony may be one hundred her walked around didn't extend her tongue like mouth parts into the sugar water solution as she always would but rather walk around fidgeted flew up over the lake and dove basically dive bombed into lake now knowing that bees can face various parasites in lawmakers out to my little feeder and I was situated by a lake well blue red kept coming my patriotic blue would keep flying out days and weeks time and you can see if the same be engages in the same behavior so just give a wild extreme example interest shared Nobel prize with Conrad Lauren's and Karl von Frisch he famously instructed others to have a view of the with exchange notes about timing and behavior well after a couple of weeks of getting used to this bs behavior she did something really odd she landed on the feeder it's a really exciting idea but don't do it at the expense of ignoring other nuggets of gold odd behaviors that could take you some visa and they're over there might have fifteen twenty maybe more and my plan is to see if I can over winter be when I was in route spur Germany and I had a little observation high I was watching my bs and one night a Katie did grass it used to be every day among a bunch of other bees but this one had tabs on and we had walkie talkies so I talked to the person who is at the high but into the hive but then I probably wouldn't have noticed much else except for increased activity but happened half a thermal camera that looks at in really interesting directions so that's what I try to do when I'm doing one experiment you know it might fail but well what's happening over there and a good example of that wow so that you know that's an odd ball event but they're oddball events left and right and for example Niko Tinbergen famous red imagery beyond humans capacity to perceive and I was doing it for totally different reason but is zeroed in these are things not to close your eyes not have tunnel vision but as a scientist sure you can start out with a hypothesis you can try to test that hypothesis and correlative hopped in my observation hive tunnel and the be started to attack it well I would have noticed that and I would have noticed a mosquito another night flying color shapes patterns all kinds of things visually they can see polarized light so compared to honeybees contracting the wing muscles without flapping their wings I saw this mob of bees baked that individual live and bake the mosquito alive and a two so I decided from this happenstance side of observation to make that into a standardized study wow I want to put on that Katie did and then that mosquito what did I see this thermal defense with these beasts just as they over winter as a hot cluster and I noticed over the ensuing days that these vest Bula germanacos yellow jacket wasp's would come in my observation hive or whenever I opened a B and with my bees no haven't done a very controlled standardized test of this marking all May of coolness I wanted to dive after that but I would have had to scrap that days experience so I didn't but I think she exploded in the water would invade my colony sometime succeed but more often than not again be mobbed and baked alive is all suffocated with an envelope of Co because really has merit because if you look at other studies involving for example birds yeah you know it then where you might have a tag on the land the average butterfly where at least some tests suggests that they see ultraviolet which is beyond what we see into maybe oranges and not really commissions quite different so we see Roy Deep Red Orange Yellow Green Blue Indigo violet typically and we have a bias obviously humans reds so typically won't see bees honeybees visiting red hummingbird feeders or visiting red flowers if you see honeybees visiting red flag applies may have the widest range of color vision from reds into ultraviolet honeybees a little bit limited relative to the Frisch Way Back in the nineteen thirties learn very well blues especially Greens yellows and they distinguished contrast league and at least according to one study with one species it appeared to affect Meat Selection real hot commodity exactly with the arbitrarily colored like landing strips going down the corollas down the pedals into the nectar sources of these flowers whereas maybe a butterfly this is a part of mate selection or something back to its pre back to its brewed in its nest because a wasp is a Predator a honeybee is a vegetarian before and here the yellow jacket hi in a B. Yard there'd be tens of thousands of bees no matter a yellow jacket would fly in decapitate honeybee mulch it into a Bolles protein to take it gamut I mean you've got basically the secondary sexual apparatus in the form of these colorful wings flapping around gaudily they're using it but I suspect Oh there hasn't been in effect a trouble for beekeeping behaviorist beekeepers us and be researchers at large yeah to BC color bees do see color in fact honeybees as determined by Carl NBA because of the varied colored the wings it can be have having a little more distinctive I then you know who's really got the the hottest wings in town either short or long wavelengths and there are a lot of organisms a lot of non human animals that do some say that the butterfly some I think anthropocentric so we ignore the infrared and beyond or the altar violent and beyond for the most part so who sees in those sometimes for camouflage sometimes for startle response sometimes APO Semitism warning coloration I'm toxic in the case of Monarch Butterfly Adare on you and follow follow you around that would help because then you'd distinguish me for my identical yes no red dot sudden it's like you throw the purple on there and it's like the Nike swoosh and now this is just the coolest be in school that is an excellent question one part of what we might discuss cultural entomology how insects humans and half throughout the world and across span of Astute point because the honeybee is not going for colors for reasons of mate selection there are all kinds of mottled brownish butterflies full do you ever have you ever put a put a colored dot e Pope Purple Daughter something like that on a. b. in the bees respond positively or negatively to it obsessed person I would be an easy host let me tell you it'd be totally easy oh so so I walk in so this is this is I it's probably because the reflecting patterns in the ultraviolet which we don't detect but you put an ultra violet camera on one of those flowers and it's the head capsule of an aunt or basically any part of certain insects there are a delicacy in some parts of the world and that could be a segue into at least so I guess I'm a little still stuck on the brain parasite honey it's one of my favorite con is who will forget a yellow black white right nobody nobody that's right with one nasty taste of sequestered milkweed booze is lobster fisherman who's on this island of the coastal Maine where he occasionally does studies and this grumpy guy crossed the time yeah we're going to definitely get to that we also need to do a sleep I still have a couple questions because l. very meticulously and correctly where these beasts were flying if they're doing the simple faculty that's all it is some stuff like that going on Oh yeah I mean every parasite has its own parasite so you bet now thinking of course that fungus can burst oh they're going toward the lobstermen so he ended up traveling nervously sheepishly over and lobster guy ran out of the house saying I was actually kind of I wasn't surprised that you could easily identify a waigel dance but the ease of which you are able to be like in B.'s parasites that that Dr Bs behavior do you think that bees have somehow may be infected you and now this in a little extra effort into heaven the glass the observable high is you're looking in there and you're in you're going look this Waigel dance Oh this in Biz and Thompson I'm here to bees and so he was able to save him from his is coming down his chimney so it was that exact measurement that he unstick odor and classic story I love from my friend Tom Sealy's honeybee democracy at the Tille Andy Talks about the you had a sense of the distance you are a beeper your ear officially are your part B. now you can easily be on Abi decoder a waggled motivation levels that translate into you see basically excitement in motivation so yeah you've got direction distance look this guy found a source girl the sorry this this girl I it's like when you say you guys there's girls and Paul Polity of food source a number of factors or anything advertised it could be a new home a water source propolis imagine your family knows all about this could make when he's decoding the wackle dance on a map to find across the island where to go so you can decode honey bees dance quite easily do they also island to avoid this part of the island this grumpy lobster guy well Thomas studying swarming behavior and honeybees and he could this say they're waggling at this angle relative to the vertical transpose that ankle all it means is relative to the sun what is the site there advertise is is there information within a waigel dance about how kind of how exciting do I wasn't expecting to in here and you just threw it at me while one you know there's things that get in it and more wagle dance followers accruing and she does it for so many times while the numbers grow but her excitement is there and so you see let's like you and I- recap I'm saying why don't you recap what we talked about time because you have the whole patriarchy confessing my own mind but but but you you look and you go you go this lady over here's all just talking about the Mortis APPs aunt's getting affect it and going onto the trees and wonderful so bs I know that your whole head space is a much more organized palace than than the palace has in memory pal who the extreme one another bite of a of a monarch viceroy for that part now but as you said sexual selection can play a huge role this well waggling around to this food source that was that was a completely different direction to this lady's waggling and they were they were equal distance you you had a sense of the direction you as I recall we started to talk about what sleep is in a behavioral sense in a physiological sense what the gold standard art from entering sleep is and then we went into what a suite of behavioral sleep signs may be for something only part of an idea I so let's recap what we kind of talked about for in when I say listen and you'll see all kinds of words bandied about that aren't easy to define gray area blurry nebulous going feverishly for fifty plus Wagle runs a circuit where you go but a little and turnaround don't wag when you go back no one has had success beyond the glimmer say for example of gross changes wasteful quiescent states with two MM super memory people will build a fictive palace and walk through rooms in order to remember arbitrary fat I'm scavenging through a through a junkie the boldly the term sleep for fruit flies if you're going to meeting of three to five thousand sleep biologists probably ninety plus percent of them were mind is like this is we got a we got a Pepsi on the Basketball Court so you can you can see it in a wangle dance if she's with humans and in a medical sense you want to convince them potentially that you've got a model system that's more tractable you can do more stuff with it that's not a human in the form of this fly but can it really be said to sleep so very careful tests redone simulcast physiology Jones etc and what they determined was that they did have a sleep like state changed and as more and more Study suggested that sleep was really happening here sleep became batted and fall under the term sleep and more and more as more evidence came in sleep biologists accepted this new model system this new fruit fly sleeper so the language in the literature as the biology okay do you use the word quiescence rest profound rest sleep like state at what point is it except that would be either difficult or impossible to test physiologically so say for example you want to look at an Orca whale or if you want to look at honey AAC terms that are trying to steer clear safely from using the loaded term sleep so how do you use being green guy I prefer the one with the hammer myself okay. I think we're done here now get all your favorite APPs shows and movies micro electrodes in a quiescence to find that Oh yeah let me tell you so you travel back pre two thousand now about year two thousand that's the direction and their waggling one two three seconds that would correlate with a distance so tom newer was coming from he looked at his map and he said Oh ah a slat tight memory that is impressive or organized mine I I've seen your journals stuff to do you do you guys you are you waggled dancing around you you have your own kind of forms of communications modeled after bees and insects that you use sometimes life parts that would indicate the opposite direction and Blida waggling that abdomen and then come back around a little bit if they're doing that over and over and over again sharing food any sleep in two separate labs on fruit flies that include a bit of behavior but mostly well it was a combination of behavior four year old ribbon is a dancer now I've got a hold on that dancing into wackle Tinson yeah I think you know sometimes they can be tough to wrangle in those kids it doesn't look across across the soccer ball field and they see dad working and it's time for dairy Queen EEG's electron cephlon grams were you prob- the electrical activity of brain will be hard to come by and shopper. That I like that I'm GonNa do that you should absolutely so real really good test for ribbon as he gets older like what am I advertise seven where in town are we going we'll be this ice cream all right up here trying to talk about sleep work junkyards were okay sleep recap except of we we just recently had I don't know in relation to win yours is going to be coming out if this one will have aired but but the kind of classic I've had my car so wonderful and and I'm now realizing myself when I look around at these hives because of what you pointed out to me you get to in this this is the case for for you know the lexicon I guess I wouldn't have guessed sleep researchers being such an anxious easily triggered crew of Ah don't you dare call it sleep and that was keeping them up at night Other people were encroaching in their kin they're sleep kit any two humans together benefit to that or some sort of trade-off otherwise why not have someone that can only sleep two hours a day off take taken advantage everybody evidence as long as the semantics the terminology is consistent so the argument of using sleep is to be doing something that's explicitly overtly obviously fitness increasing meaning leading to increased reproduction where the idea that you can you can basically say something isn't happening but you can't say with infinite goal of a scientist objectivity you want to remove as much subjectivity and bias from your interpretation of empirical I cannot prove anything I can disprove alternative hypotheses and Karl Popper Science philosopher was big on that right double double blind studies controls multiple careful controls and if you can have your experiment replicated by skeptic sleeping if you don't do careful tests that can be dangerous because of what sleep means if it's really the complex and there will be contradictory evidence there will be debates and people feel very strongly now what is one maybe impossible six all the better as more independent lines of evidence converge on a single idea or explanation all the better because as a biologist over time natural selection being one of those mechanisms you can be out competed yeah and I so interesting how not building a shelter finding a made gathering food were right there must be something to it and that's what that quote is hitting probably a really good thing because every once in a while I see the term sleep used really loosely and why is that a danger think that's trivial right so sure looks like I mean this fossil dinosaur looks like it sleeping right or this organism this flat worm looks like it's acknowledge something is happening so when I look at something and I say sleep I am totally open to challenging evidence of data as you can that can be difficult because we are humans and we'll have inherent biases so we try to do some things like blind sial behavior that seems to come with attributes than you want to be careful of how you use it and a quote that every sleep researcher ever made now that's a bold statement and it suggests that this time that we spend in this prone state were we're don't see else well the well those other suckers are sleeping exactly and with the different mechanisms driving ablution or change Illich frequencies in a population it sure will refer to as the sleep research allen wreck shop and if sleep doesn't serve an absolutely vital function it is the biggest mistake evolution yeah I you're wasting away eight hours a day and age in humans case and there has to be some sort of how how biased scientists can be considering that that you know the a the big goal of science is to create this objectively but then you throw in human nature where there's this need for status or affiliation and you WanNa get along with certain groups stand out and a special character but when it via Caesar Taints your objectives and your interpretation of evidence than it becomes dangerous fairly removing the humanity of science because there are poets of science and there's creative writing within thinking within science that takes a special person so you see these biopsies and agendas in the scientific community and the hope is ideally that with time with replication the ideas that best represent facts will rise to the top I so ah I'd love to know for example if you incorporate dream material in your comedy sketches sometime I think more importantly is daydreaming and how how much how different is daydreaming I I don't remember dreams as much as I would help too but I have a couple things about dreams that I've incorporated and then the experience with sleeping which I'm a big fan of I'm it's probably if it's if it's the biggest stake in evolution it's also my favorite post I love it because I've got questions for you then you randy from night dreaming I actually don't think it's as different as the subjective kind of visual feel or or emotion that'd be the most objective person jackets and so I'm not advocating and into the slow wave deeper sleep three and four and then rapid eye movement sleep rem sleep which is typically the seat actual sleep because many people going into stage one sleep if roused might deny that they were sleeping at all and stage one going on in almost all of my material comes from dreaming and that's a really good point because if you if you think about daydreams are you thinking about it for example in an eight hour sleep invest two hours in rem sleep over time and a lot of that will be the dreaming consciousness whatever that is being inserted into the experience of sleeping even though there might be things like say must oh quality that that when you're sleeping it I would say it's intensified compared to day-dreaming as subtler but I think some of the same things but you do have hip negojsa which actually mentioned last time and these non narrative usually face filled vision vision many domains of our physical activities and has more global Use and so that might be represented as me being like if you if pressed to speculate on what rem sleep might be I think it's just more of the the stage for more narrative dreaming we'll go in cycles sees ninety to one hundred ten minutes cycles over the span of a night so you might could imagine material or inspiration coming from that as well and and I would say it's kind of in many ways relatively the same mind wander and that can be the most exciting prospects for inspiration or exploration or creativity and Seoul memory and different things being being worked out through the brain during sleep in then when our when Ram sleep hits your consciousness now finds itself in that Environment Watson and Crick independently thought the same and others have said the same kind of thing when you divorce yourself from say a stamina testing put bold claims that you can solve problems during sleep ordering dreaming there's a really interesting controversial or contentious buddy I think faces the situation where Oh for got that name I forgot that fact and then you let your mind wandering book POPs back in you know but but but that's a specific dream about specifically that move that I have to make whereas if I'm doing something a little more universal why why would love to know why know how is the brain working how's the brain processing that and the idea as you stated that you had that spark of a notion you had that as you're falling asleep and you can have some aspects of dreaming they're usually very quickly forgotten in these other stages of sleep so if you're daydreaming meant this neural activity if they had dreams where I figure out a move on a rock climbing wall that I've been trying to figure out for some time standing on the edge of a cliff or something like that but it's very traumatized thing and much in the same way I think daydreaming is like I'm sitting there I'm doing the dishes and everything and I'm not aware thought beforehand and then it just works its way in say while you're washing the dishes is an interesting one because if you think about thou of anything but just wander and allow your mind to wander then you can get some really interesting maybe novel ideas and you know every I had I just wasn't consciously aware of it really astute and I I I love the idea that you can have this muscle memory or just washing her dishes and you let your evidence to suggest that rapid eye movement sleep and in some cases slow wave sleep for other things but rapid eye movement sleep can improve different behaviors I figure it out the benzene ring molecular structure really from a dream he dreamed of a snake grabbing its own he talks about what he considers a myth and it has to do with a Friedrich August Kakuei and the idea that this German chemist it's tricky because a really great book that I read recently Kevin Ashton's how to fly horse the secret history of creation invention discovery of the kind of inner world of activity that's going on that certainly there until I become aware of like Oh this idea pops into my head that idea was already in while you're dreaming and maybe pull together ideas that were already extent already existing in your brain and then interpreted hale and and the way Kevin Ashton approaches that is that's a bunch of bunk so as he puts he puts it to to heightening upping the ante on on fine tuning those motor skills and and which is exactly the kind the body of literature and hearsay about that so on one hand you've got Bob stick holds work that shows really clearly that you've got this psychomotor ah now on the flip side when you say Oh yeah I got that idea during sleep during dreaming during sleep and I get all my inspiration from dreams I think often before before you wake up your brain starts flooding with cortisol a stress hormone to to awake you and if you just happen vigilance tasks where the eye hand coordination you can improve it with training Shur but you can improve it even more with training plus sleep a stream commotion and he recounts US Twenty Five Years After he had this supposed dream so this is one of the more famous tales of I wanted to note I think our emotions are kind of doing the same sort of process off we spoke in monotone the whole time with no think it's probably more typical that from random or somewhat random synoptic firing in the brain you build a pseudo narrative our sold like say I'm working on my balance and standing on one foot that might be a balanced this is something that is always going to benefit us and with with a stress hormone Activa Magdala uninhibited by the prefrontal Cortex you might create a story of some horrific around and then you poke in the eye and it creates this really graphic representation because that leaves an impression on thing and then Bob stickle for the work with say skiing down a slope in a video game then you dream about it you improve right there really clear thicke nightmare because that is the a metaphor in an exaggerated embodiment of the environment that it finds itself in Chomsky's and exception you got such brilliant information packed into one of his talks that you can't help appear tension I I love memory just as the you use your emotions to deliver a message and you have different at different points to highlight different parts of being inspired and this is a Nobel laureate being inspired by dreams I would not discount that you get novel ideas James Defies time and space annihilated so that eternity is compressed into a moment an infinite space traversed in a flash in to go into RAM sleep at that time in your consciousness happens to become active and now finds itself in the environment of the flooded at that stage and I have so for example when I go rock climbing like to tie this not you make this loop that's the head and then you wrap it around Italian news defy motor skills hunter-gatherers would need jumping around streams and those look silly to a bunch of adults that work in cubicles nowadays but I think these are exactly the skills you want to be building none of night herself the daughter of chaos that a hard to escape mythology because a match and a good matter of fact form of deliberate I know I know it's a little bit opposite side of the fence or you find yourself but your message in emotionally respond differently to different parts of your message which are are just like if I was reading a book and highlighting the certain parts that Nice Berg points out that the word cool used was help schoff or half sleep which is often translated as reverie cocoon was not sleeping he was dade I can imagine what life might be like thirty years from now probably not very accurately but we can time travel very easily in our the of recorded information about cultural affects related to dreaming so here in this account from the biology of dreaming that one and then for which is how our memory works because I can go back in time to my earliest memory which internist Hartman says the oldest dream book extent the Egyptian Papyrus Two thousand BC reveals divine revelations homer agreed streaming his dream is often described as a vision of a snake biting its tail cocoon says he saw Adam's twisting in snake law anti idea of how time and space work yes and hypnosis the Greek God of sleep was the twin brother of death and the remind so I think when you find yourself in the environment of of what the subconscious world looks like it seems like it's a very different and I think this is much of what our subconscious I think when you're when the kids play the floor is lava or something I think that's a way of olds that were hoping to articulate and then impress upon people in the eye I go into I just came from Yoga before coming here and you know at their dreams interpreted the temple of Apollo physicians were official dream interpreters to the courts et Cetera so dreams have played huge roles in the history of humans I have a question for you sheen are you in Onaran not knowing there I just learned this term pixellated in different ways and at the end of the day whether you know that an exhale as activating your para sympathetic response or if the yoga teacher is saying some yoga teachers that that are little more in the spiritual mystical side of things I I tend to roll my eyes a little bit not respond and that other yeah I think there again look at the traumatize ation of of what I think what I would perceive as much more nuanced internal mental were the psyche if maybe that's what I'm calling for the moment then I mean the you've got I mean fifty six thousand plus years of history in modern modern humans and and thought Molyneaux on a person thinking in terms of relating what's happening in a sleep state versus so-called conscious state wasteful state dreams or messengers of the Gods Socrates heavenly admonitions to be obeyed the Christmas wishes of our hearts plot nece fantasies that crown the objects of our desires in some extreme cases you can control your dream and that can have psychologically really beneficial effects and so engages in lucid dreams are where you're knowledgeable that you are dreaming now I've had this dream but apparently about ten a- another person's talking about anatomy and the Para sympathetic and sympathetic response system and and a lot of talking about the exact same thing just mike now exhale and invite in the divine relax station within you if you're tapping into the same percentage of human population engages in Lucid dreaming say one lucid dream a month or so anyway the idea being that you're conscious that you're dreaming and is when I was like two years old and then I can really Zuma I broke my arm so it was it was notable and then and then insist on certain words than it would be problematic unless that's really old do and then you might have short period Dome Chomsky the human organism is still acting out in in the same way it's kind of conveying this the same it's still having the same out count there has been an interesting history of lucid dreaming in the study of Lucid dreaming as you can imagine it's a gateway just as the observation hive is so I went to I was visiting a ex of mine who I'm still friends with and she was really that now there are representations are in their head or is this like some some just pure creation of like other people I know more together into one my visual gateway into the behavior of Honeybees we've got this sorry I remember Lucid Dreams and Mike share however certainly gets a lot of attention for his very very different different kind of delivery so there's a lot of there's a lot of factors going on in there I'm in this grocery store and I'm thinking who are these people because they don't look familiar to me so how am I dreaming them how did they are these just strangers that I passed by often to lucid state of like way this isn't I I can no longer suspend my disbelief unlike boobs don't ever look like this a sneaking thing that I remember the feeling of going from like not being lucid to all this happens all the time when I today so the the study of dreaming is owner allergy and and occasionally the word Nara dot is used for someone who on ropes they were like almost becoming detached from her body and I'm like oh it's okay it's fine and doc yeah I mean it's just so bizarre let's let's make sense of what this was trying to tell me intimate and then next thing I know I'm in a grocery store and it was it was it was it was partially because the boobs I was like there's and then and then to like to cheer up I was like I still find you attractive and then we are going and then we're going to be it's like a ghost or something like so lucid but limited control over the dream interesting yeah and then I tried I've I've often abi like water skiing which is weird because I don't want water skied like three times in my life I'm not even sure I've ever gotten up but I'll person and I'm thinking all Mike and I'm starting to maybe I'll talk to one of these people so I go to talk to and I can't help they're not hearing me and I wake up on impact wow yeah that happens fairly regularly something like that sometimes it's just jumping for me it's slow heavy arduous flapping in my arms especially in situations of danger approaching could be vampires zombies you name it Sousse is in real and then as soon as I realized that then I find myself in a grocery store now I know I know I'm dreaming delving into the personal it's it's really intriguing especially when it's lucid to explore I was like trying to tap him on the shoulder and they would do their shoulder would move but it was like they wouldn't know and Salami tried to punch a person in the face obviously trying to cheer her up so I dream interpreters who would have a heyday with that one and then there will be one where I just like jump and I'm Mike Hards of feet in the air and then it's always like once I'm up I'm like yeah I'm really I'm really about benefits and anyway it's so bizarre and ridiculous sharing now it might be it'll crack is impossible this is an impossibility but I'm going to take advantage of it and exploited this ephemeral opportunity I have and the value in both went to read you a couple of quotes about during yeah yeah is going to do it historian for from Newton Kookaburras drink right and they were having with another person is so weird and then I woke up do you ever fly I kinda they get a large community of scientists together whether it be paleontologist or sleep biologists systemitized looking at evolutionary biology going to this isn't GonNa end well and then I start I start coasting down and then I brace for impact and he like water skiing and like going over awake and I'll like get lower like oh look at me I'll go over another way like try to get a little more air and then real more substantial than my wasteful memory can allow so I try to take it mel person touch the person here the person converse with the person and live in a way that I think is more it was really sad because something was wrong with her boobs and I'm like well they seem fine to me and then she showed them to me and they were like hanging it's all it's all zip zip back to a specific you know eight or time in the past yeah no it's present day in that and you dream them have they aged in your drawer appropriately usually not no they have for me yeah weird that's wild yeah graphic novels to read or movies too that's great you can fly yeah actually a little bit so so get their attention and their face of knowing like a dream person yeah knowing dream person and then they they just like there had moved and they just continued with the UH often times I'm mike this person's dead when when when I 'cause I will become lucid yeah that's that's you're for example a relative who's died and you really miss that relative and the few times I've dreamt about the I knew in the dream any of that when I do you find that someone that passed away or you haven't seen in a very long like like say a decade or two they're coming for my ankles and I Jessica and then I can soar into the tree I won't get great control that's amazing yeah sometimes I listen yeah I don't get any monitors never once in my life I give you give me a monster take it like oh this is this is a bit much I know once I get up there I'm like oh no suspended disbelief right goes away I oh no and then I like WanNa but it but sometimes they'll be like what's wrong as I'm like real leising that this is a dead person that I'm talking to nothing I don't know how to break this but into the antenna and so is our calcium ions passing from the cell to that cell in these regions of interest you can find out putting fluorescent dyes in the brain they do so that would be maybe the first beginnings inklings of an indication that if you're processing odors during question would be and I wonder if there is a way to eventually in furthest somehow as as the I mean our our bees dreaming of like Queens with detached boobs like huge sleep does that go to higher order processing centers do incorporated in a narrative and in that little art book taking images interested in enhancing your dreams or even training to be a lucid dreamer you can find a lot of online sources written materials basically you can look at the the first processing center in the brain for all faction for odor and this is right connect would choose them to go down but but yeah that's those those ones have stuck with me and there are ways in case your listeners the calcium imagery I extend the idea that A. B. is thinking about flying to flower collecting food on training to be a lucid dream for example and what benefits it might have for some it's more work than others but also just trying to enhance the visual component so what I wanted to do is see if a bee that sleeping would still process odors and we came up with a handful of these it seemed to show that they can ideas of what could constitute a dream foreign insect but those days exciting days are ahead of us. Hey It's bizarre has its I've had some that are I would say there's a unsettling kind of troubling quality to it Adia behind this is an extension of my science that I- collaboratively conducted in Germany in which we did some visualizations with the running some art on my website that needs to be updated. Well okay well now I feel awful for cutting field becomes more open to the idea that say an insect or whatever is is experiencing what we are calling sleep long while I'll see a be that shows every indication of being asleep and yet you everts the tongue like mouth parts so is she missile team they're interesting ways of doing that wonderful well so I guess my main on a negative I mean it's part of the rich tapestry of life that we get to have these experiences some of them not necessarily the way we assist food handles the food from the lower so there is no answer to that right now but titillating hints so for example every once in a law the really interesting beginnings of science fact that show how were dreaming what we're seeing in terms of humans and some rodents really interesting yeah I mean we'll eventually kind of be able to DVR the mind a little bit as as we're trying to for people that are paralyzed and can't talk cut you off for a second sorry because I want my listeners working listeners find I don't WanNa forget to tell me listening or they can go to find some of your your work what's up and actually that's how lucid dreaming works in a nutshell I mean in the case of science fact following science fiction you've got plenty of science fiction and the first dreaming about extending those mouth parts into the curl of a flower who knows I think there are tractable ways to begin to further address coming back to the nest basically as the brain is processing the odor flash. It's the flower smells the flower but even if it's a convergence functional convergence you could imagine that training or practicing during sleep could help in studies navigating this this dark fictive realm I I would be I would be surprised if there wasn't traumatized shen going on in the brains of everything especially if it means if it benefits organism if during the sleep like st her well they wouldn't really be defined this unless they found me it's an edition of Fifty Bun okay well but I've outcomes so in my lab were about to conduct studies involving y maes learning and bees and huge pot of of sugar and like other and just like the the the biggest most gorgeous night and these and Giovanni Kalita where we were doing some calcium imaging in the antenna lobe of honeybees brain. Ah Continue with what you were Oh so this is this is an extension of the work that is doing in constance Germany with Christopher view show him a picture of a ball or something like that see what region lights up and then next time around you have him concentrate on a ball and recently where I was getting a tour of of a a insect collection and this wonderful flowers they've ever seen and these like really dramatized versions of their own little book called APIS SOM- Neha Minnesota that with sleep and sleep loss so I've I've again I had a I had an episode aw fun thing happened that at the end of the tour we noticed a roach on the ground had like the the work was coming dead that meant it was dead I had I had no idea that they can seem dead for a very long time you can even pick them up and pin them down eight there is a state it doesn't even have to share a common ancestor with our dream like state it's most definitely doesn't in the case of the dreaming if you want in the future so sorry that time and space are different for you and I but she went to pick it up there is a standard practice for a number of species where the default is to drop and feign death and just end but but what I learned from that was she went to go in and pick it up and again listeners this may be an episode that was already released or a possum and some snakes hog nosed snake for example you can pretend you're dead really effectively because a lot of predators will avoid something ex-people's interest why don't we why don't think sleep like that sleep like they're dead as a natural defense just sleep upside down and and that's static sessile and potentially dead and a lot of insects for example if you grab it a a season professional entomologist might grab certain insects different ways so for example I'll have my hand below insect if I went to grab it on a leaf because because that's a difficult position to get out of first off it's in the case of some Beetles Nisa beautiful three horned black little fungus beetle on a bracket fungus and I thought it had died she is like we'll see if it's dead or not and I would have I didn't know I thought that if a insects as do take certain positions in the case of an insect you take a cockroach it's not going to curl up with its legs together on its back and everything else and then stick them in the freezer pull him back out they thought and come right back to life I've had a couple of tragic anecdotes really relevant as one of a myriad of of worthwhile sources to invest your fun like a stag beetle it can die in that position see definitely don't WanNa sleep in that position but why physiologically different being interesting thing to explore one hands up over their heads the other ones and and they're in this like a jigsaw puzzle shape or something why don't we sleep like that their full potential website also oh here's a here's a fun thing I started a partnership with Libro Dot FM recently over time over the night our positions but you're right it's typically not a death posture why because far along we go into rigor mortis and our body any of them will just drop down to the leaf litter so I'm ready waiting with palm and so then I can watch the insect play dead in my hand for awhile and that really at this and in one case was a we undergrad in entomology and making a collection said well we're not getting cultural anthropology today we're going to have to do it another time three you're just for our last time it was seriously society this is the international conservation for Invertebrates Organization and I found that to be dreams of Galileo mix of nonfiction fiction that travels through time in the mind and it really thinks about consciousness in interesting ways this is funny because we need to call maintenance they need to spray for bugs bugs out of our buck thing had pulled it from the freezer stuck opinion it you can guess the horrible end recalling the pin that was so horrifying so is a zinger but honeybee democracy is also brilliant I could go on zoo I'll okay so I'm really getting into Giuliani's Fi p. h. i. Marvelous Book that Traverses Predators I've I've had at least one roommate that really was convincing death pose at night so we can't we do shift sounds for the betterment of our planet Sursee Society looks at those ninety seven plus percent of animal species that are often dismissed uh-huh beautiful book and then anything written by Tom Seeley at Cornell University his latest book the life of bees based services for people it's the same price same Cadillac Lee road. FM does is it allows you to pick your local independent bookstore in your actually downloading it that's enough homework for for today probably let's finish our conversation about about sleep in insects you have a you have some other nuggets you WanNa get I'm not in any kind of a hurry or anything like that so we have time but I imagine if I on this let's have a sponsored book recommendation for from Lebron Dot FM. I didn't prep you for this which is an audio book company and just like all your other audio book companies out there like say audible or whatever it's doing great job providing a reasonably priced operation for me to continue in this laborious masters most people biologists included would probably consider the study of wasp deep of this somewhat social paper Wasp I was reading this book by Kevin O'Neill called Solitary wasps and a quote that was in I let you we would talk about sleeping insects shrew next to name the time duration sleeping to be pretty compelling so that was the harbinger for more sleep but let's go let's Nord that need our help and protection that's very worthy cause people can find out more going to here we are baucus dot com how in nineteen sixteen and at the beginning of their paper called the sleep of insects and ecological study they wrote an object I hope you can think of a book that was influential on you maybe early on in life that you enjoyed and would recommend others wow I'd love to recommend a few as many from them so they put the cost and or the prophets rather and and so you're supporting your local indie bookstore so this is the first time I've ever But in terms of relevance to insects a big one I'd recommend would be Thomas Eisner's for love of insects back in time and we can think about for example plenty the elder seventy nine ad and in the back of his book on natural his breathe and sleep but okay all right we'll run with that now fast forward a couple thousand years almost and you've got row and I've got a couple of quotes for you that I love so my first ventures into insect sleep started with this beautiful large yellow paper you know if y you know the the cliche like chalk outline the person in their in their head when where and how insect sleep has been all but neglected now I might have read that same quote months ago when we met last time but pitching in flower all arouse ones interest but naturalist like children ceased to pay attention to insects when the latter cease their activity thus the interesting problem in motion always attracts the attention of children young and old a butterfly flitting from blossom to blossom a locus jumping before one in the dusty road A. B. Run five by Giulio Tony who is asleep biologist and consciousness researcher at U W Madison and it brings up all manner of fascinating quirky weird eccentric research ventures and one I just learned about social behavior in social dynamics so could it be that you can look at sleep in a socialite or even dreaming in a socialite yeah no it makes me feel like a fool here I just tantalized by these like birds ah we will but I have let's do this let's plug the charity of your choice that you wanna plug if you remember asp that's located in Arizona or at least that's where I studied it publicity's flavors and as I was studying as a master's student so the idea is say you are sleeping and you want to make lucid dreaming a Scientific Venture Stephen The future gusts actually I already mentioned Kevin Ashton's how to fly a horse secret history of creation invention and discovery really intriguing book we recently is the idea of Co Lucid dreaming the idea that you can lucid dream with another during the world to the only place I could see find his mention of insects and sleeper insects and dreaming was insects to sleep insects do static sessile we have all been missing out on such a large portion of life attorney skip comber torpor death go to sleep when I started looking insects sleep I thought all right I'm really interested in insects I'm really interested in sleep and dreaming also interested human so you gotta be spooning at least now you could be thousands of miles displaced the Barisha's studied this for years and one thing he did was he'd institute an indicator now it's you can see the ice flitting about during narrative dreaming searchers where you are in the dream the researchers then can indicate to another lucid dreamer with say a red or green light flashed in their room now sample I'm going to indicate that I'm about to fly through the ceiling right now aside from indicating to the re and repeatedly so maybe you could show someone on the outside that your not only sleeping or dreaming but your at a particular and then if someone else does it at the same time and another place then they're also seeing the detached boob the idea is that if you if you can indicate so for example I have just flown through the ceiling of the room and I'm about to fly over a university campus Giller state a predefined location or time of a predefined dream by indicating with your eyes now when you see detached boobs look left and right the running theme of this so and then and then you see sway you might be incorporating that signal that Q. of a red or green light into your dream now if you're a good lucid dreamer than you it's worth repeating it's I don't think that you did I think I would I would have remembered that right that that's an impactful quote and it as a kind of taking a break for the time being from psychedelic experiences as I'm still integrating past ones and have no real and encountering rem sleep rapid eye movement sleep but what's really rare is to see the eyes sweep across from left to right flying about and like a child ooh things moving I'm GonNa look at the moving thing legally ignoring the station these are exciting to and really interesting or no one saying anything negative about here and in their dream justice for example your alarm clock became a a church Beller a song in your dream right and you stay asleep he in this already preplanned what point in the dream you're in and you can share that dream in a sense with lucid dreamer a that's the idea represented is in this you know kind of similar seeming in internal world I think that sometimes it might wake them sometimes it might be ignored but every once in a while they are stimulated enough that it's inc exploring kind of these inner perceptions that you know are seemingly really bizarre and so different than has a template to measure females are friends or whatever aganst and I think that or the beetle or the perfect Beatles we might have the idea of the the stationary behavior you should focus on treating so of the stationary behaves writer that's the one that's the good one now hibernation all psychotics using psychedelics to explore the inner workings of the mind I don't think it's all that terribly different now that I'm Apathy or whatever seems real fun and people people seem to have a real penchant for confirming any kind of subject to influence and and the idea of like with huge whiskers and massive front claws yeah and so and so then like once you say do a psychedelic and your our consciousness gets shifted into this internal mind's eye or whatever I think if you if you run into like your own inner representation always be picking up on subtle movements smells factory stuff that we aren't consciously aware of and and the way that gets events of having some sort of superpower special trade and so I'm always a little bit weary but I think that you know the people people might your distel digits like your fingers maybe your toes twitch a little bit so you can indicate that way maybe but they did it with the is and I think it might be easier with the is from lucid dreamer a and communicate what are you talking about I'm not talking about quantum mechanics here just acknowledging wait not even be cognizant of the effects and social journey on what could what could otherwise experience so it's a use for I'm I'm such a perfect model citizen at the moment I don't I don't know how much better I could get but pewtrusts that will affect the emotional states of your dreams similarly can incorporate sounds so question of what subtleties in your environment does anyone know our has anyone asked the question of if if social species of your own body it would look like an alien or something to do you and it's really just you that you're seeing and that idea of the social interactions having are waking life but in that case am I wrong in that some of those psychoactive you can experience with others in a way that might be like keep more or less than than species artists social I imagine it's been asked this is the question that my colleagues and I are asking traversing a dream together yeah okay yeah happens quite a bit I don't quite understand what's going on with it if it's how you know we're we're all pretty I know this guy's crazy not does not represent the physical body could a naked mole rat in that sense and it'll have a huge nose impacting your sleep state and dream state we could go in many directions with this including like sleep hygiene what does it mean to get the best sleep you know has these has these the body parts the ratio of of the neural activity for for body part is is Hutt but but lucid dreaming dreaming is something that definitely would would scratch that itch for me a little bit of I'm known consequences on that activity interesting to me because if you had a solo journey versus a social journey oh so that was pretty new to me I says rose and Boone air not yeah I mean I'm a I'm a psycho Nada of documentary actor sleep so you can imagine different causal associations like I'm the Alpha male or female depending on documented that for example smells of different sorts can affect the emotional states of your dreams is it garlic is at a rose is it a carcass with Dan and there there's a lot written on the topic and Matthew Walker's book why we sleep is a good example of a book that attempts to address a perfect needle is and it might it might look very similar in our inner worlds it might look like a completely different thing than an extra cut are you roosting alone are you roosting in a clump are you in the center or on the periphery of that clump or cluster and how does that channel billed at Beatles much like the what is it the cortisol humungous of the little little man sitting in the seat of I think that you and I both have an idea of what like a perfect female or something like that would look like an an and we have that embodied somewhere in our mind that we're using in Panama and Israel with two species of fruit eating bats right now so we want to look at roosting behavior and consider whether the the better ways of approaching asleep state You know in you mentioned one of free is more dangerous or are is the bustling activity as I'm finding an Honeybee Connie the bustling activity toward the epicenter on the Brood Comb Situation I'm going to go to the center and I'm going to sleep well anyway or is it the fact that you are in the center that you're sleeping well because the pre store and after that the risky terminal cast as forager going off to collect whatever it may be pollen nectar now who's out there somewhere and then I'd come back and everyone's like well they must've been working really hard they've been gone all day that they'd smell you produce themselves so in that case you've got what's called E. Polytheism as they age they changed tasks it was really fascinating marking bees from a closure when they become adults all the way through their foraging days as in that case that succession how are they sleeping where are they sleeping these are the first couple of questions I asked when I was doing my PhD and colonies you'll have some cheating going on some extent let's do a cost benefit analysis of that behavior yeah shows into engage in so you go off sh- news species that's right but what's happened here K. one you've gotten being away locality and then you've got duration differences you sleep more if you consider the sleep inside a cell when you're really young as an adult and the rest is all the same sure aunt and this was smaller jaws the forager etc no in honeybees adults all look pretty much the same unless you have individual paint Mar I think that if I were forager I would I would go out and about I kinda sneak off somewhere out of sight I'd take a little snooze when they changed casts what they were doing as they changed where they'd sleep how they'd sleep and a lot of cast dependence Lee from the bustling colony you've gotten maybe uninterrupted sleep that's great because if you've got fractured sleeper free there you social truly social more social than humans are and the one measure of greater sociology is their reproductive division of Labor this case you just have one queen handful of drones that are ephemeral in the colony otherwise you got all these workers none of which typically maybe a little bit away from the forager's the eldest risk takers they always sleep outside of cells and weighing the right they're not only right in the centre with a brood comb is but you're going to sleep inside cells when your cell cleaner you sleep inserted deep inside honeycomb six that's interesting atypical so you've got some in some lost some visa to that where it's not that this with huge jaws as the sole again right and you know that this CA- slipped obinna this newly emerged you're welcome that newly emerged admitted sleep that can be as damaging as total sleep deprivation sometimes of its extreme so no fragmentation you've got consolidated continuously somewhere behaviors came to light as a result so for example you're young you're HIVE B it's called a cell cleaner a nurse be you're gonNA sleep perfect the comb typically they'll shift positions but it's usually always on the edge of the comb now that's really interesting you've got cast dependent sleep behaviors in terms of law himself when you're a nurse be almost every time inside a cell in the brood comb and then a food store you sleep more outside cells and are fantastic except you probably didn't because of environmental factors that might rouse you but also it's a d real and they wouldn't detect nectar pollen that'd be a trick you end up along McCowan not to say you don't have cheaters you do in all in a flower right or on the side of a building or something like on a tree branch and then after an hour or two gotten your Z's in you come back to your colonies breath zone out there there's a reason why you're in a hollow tree with thousands of stinging sisters right so you're I subject to potential predation or parasitism out there so there are risks sleep death which do you choose favor. He's of solitary ground nesting bees males in particular in Arizona where they would go and clamp their mandible 's on vegetation cars you got me again I guess I'm going to head back live and pull my weight now that's not to say it doesn't happen and eh dusk and stick perpendicular orthogonal to that vegetation to stick way out with their mantles clamped against vegetation over the course of the night it closed term itself the first couple of days she's going to be a cell cleaner typically and after that she might spend a weakest nurse be and after that a food see in especially solitary bees slow and Walter Kaiser to study published in Nineteen Ninety five where he looked at a few species -sually droop down now they're sleeping out there there's no colony but you know that happens in some social she'll truly social organisms you will have the occasional got I mean a flower sleep overnight in the flower something like that so it does happen I don't know how common it is so all right so I like to consider what rippling effects are is sleep having or other complex behaviors in Saudi missile Family in a colony like this and by looking through glass or in other ways that other species you can make discoveries and one lesson I hope to pass along to your listeners is that every one of you can be assigned I or you can run your own backyard experiments easy to do just posing hypothesis testing that hypothesis being critical senteced every one of you can be what's called fashionably a citizen scientist if you like and you can do so through programmes or projects that are well organized skeptical and engaging in testing and replication you can make discoveries discoveries that I don't have time to make other signs can advance science collectively and individually that is a wonderful message and so sorry I'll use slackers I don't have time to make or were so focused with our tunnel vision on certain questions that we lose sight of other possibilities so everyone so you no longer have an excuse for not taking darting science all right well official insemination

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