150: Derren Brown | Using the Power of Suggestion for Good
Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan harbinger. And I'm here with my producer Jason to Philip. Oh, man. I'm excited for this one. I have been trying to get Darren Brown on this show for over a decade. And finally, it's happening. If you heard feedback Friday, you know that I went to his house, and he's got props from his shows there. He's got all these taxidermy animals like two headed snakes in two headed caps and six legged piglets and his house is just like something out of Sherlock, Holmes antiques, everywhere secret passageways, and he is just the coolest guy I'm trying to fan boy out so much year. But I just can't help myself this guy Darren is a genius. First of all if you haven't seen any of his work, imagine a magician or allusion, est. I don't even know what you call him at this point. He convinces people to. In theory, murder someone by throwing them off a roof. Of course, the guys harnessed in but convincing people to do that convincing people who are racist to jump in front of a bullet for who. They think is an illegal immigrant. I mean, it's just his mind. Tricks are insane. Not to mention fake, faith, healing hypnosis all kinds of it's just absolutely. He's one of the most incredible people alive today. I'm not even kidding. I just I just love what he does. Jason. You're obviously familiar with Aaron Brown. I am I was introduced to Darren Brown about seven years ago when we first met you sent me some of his videos, and I've been a fan boy ever since. And I am so jealous that I did not get to come to London to meet Darren in person because I am a huge fan of his work. He's just like you said, he's a genius his house. Sounds like everything that I would expect it to be exactly exactly. And today, we're talking about how psychological manipulation works hypnotic suggestion. We're talking about all kinds of. Elements of the show that you just can't get anywhere else there so much in this episode from how psychic fraud works to how faith healing works to how he comes up with his tricks and his allusions how he tests the shows in the experiments, there's just everything I always wanted to know in this episode and more. So please enjoy I hope you enjoy this fraction as much as I loved recording it and being able to do it. It's just it's really incredible. And if you want to know how I get people like this in my network and create connections with people like this. Well, I'm teaching it to you level one the courses free. It takes a few minutes per day. Check it out Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. All right after trying for over ten years to get him on the show. Here's Darren Brown. One of the things that I've liked about your work for a long time. Well, first of all this. This was a pleasure to prepare for because very rarely do. I get to watch twenty to thirty hours of magic and allusion Rita. A good book about. Penis. And you've. Reza? Oh, yeah. And then, of course, go and try things that I tried ten years ago. I was telling you before the show with with the the switch of the painting and a link to this show notes, the YouTube video where people are walking by remember trying this in law school, I guess sort of failed or escape X lawyers. Escapee ex you're an exploit as well. Right. We're always like I have hypothesis that we just went that way. Because we didn't know what else to do with ourselves. And then went screw it. I can't do this. Exactly, correct. Yeah. It's sort of like we have what it takes to do something. And we aim our energy in the wrong place. Because can't go wrong being a lawyer, exactly. Which is exactly my everyone's telling you 'cause here in this country. You choose you making those decisions you you've been do a levels when you're sixteen seventeen around already having idea of what you're going to study at university, which goes is any of the one you'll one subject that's going to be law, so sixteen choosing the levels you're going to do to so to. Support that which means in level below I levels, you're you're GNC's, which kind of like fourteen year ready beginning to think what direction you've got ahead because you're narrowing your subjects down, and it's just ludicrous by the time you've. Yeah. By the time, you're actually old enough to know what you wanna do you think of always thinking in the future? Isn't it? Always thinking these rungs on the ladder as opposed to just right? You know? One of the reasons I went was because I didn't know what else to do with my life. Get the most basic of retail jobs outta than maybe selling CDs at best buy which I think here is called like J B. Hi fi or virgin Tower Records, and I just thought well, I'm not going to do that with my four year education and somebody who doesn't know you from Adam is like you should be a lawyer you like arguing okay, let me spend one hundred twenty thousand dollars in four years. Four years. Yeah. You'd fit right in with all these other people everyone hates. So why don't you join them? It it pays well from what I hear. Yeah. So you never did it you never. You never I actually did. I went through passed the bar in New York City went to work on Wall Street. And then when this is not what I wanna do. But only do it for four years. And luckily, well, my luck. No one else was because you look about nineteen. How old the thirty eight thirty eight right as long enough to next. Yeah. You will pass the bar. I go and work there for a couple years, the economy tanks, and I'm doing mortgage-backed securities, which is exactly what no longer works through the subprime mortgage loan pool things. And so they go. Hey, look, all you have to find a new job more likely. You know, so apply to be like a patent lawyer. And they go great. You've got to do all this other stuff. And I went screw this. I just like doing interviews. Do these interviews for a little while? And then once I really have to get a real job, then I'll figure it out. And luckily, I'm still waiting for that moment where this all comes crashing down. I would imagine that happens with any creative career you ever wake up and go. What happens if nothing works out for me anymore? I have to start over. I feel like a little strings to my boat now. So I didn't worry about it too much because actually the stuff that is least on the sort of my control like a broadcaster gang. That's it. That's the stuff. I kind of sort of enjoyed least. Anyway, the stuff I really do. Enjoy is just me getting no does not necessarily the stuff that owns be money. I suppose it probably just kind of enough to take by. But I enjoy it mall. So that's I kind of don't worry about it. Too much. Yeah. I suppose at the point of which you're doing a Broadway show coming soon with any sunny luck then double net flicks. All over the UK household name. There's a point at which if everything comes crashing down. You're just like, I'm retired. So yeah, that'd be nice. But I I don't know whether I stopped what being. What you do because you have to you. What you feel it lost? Without you know, I think happily it happy not make TV, but I wouldn't want to know tool. But that if you're gonna toll you kind of need you need to have the presence that TV gives you otherwise known wants to come and see you on stage tonight on how it work, but I paint and take pictures and write that be how would you describe what you do? Because magician doesn't really doesn't seem like that's quite the same thing. You know, when you think magician, you think pick a card any card on my gosh, they barely saw that. Where's the where's the coin? Right. And there's nothing there's anything wrong with that. But what you're doing is kind of like, wait, how did you convince someone to murder that man, which is was the coin, and where's the coast? I vote both easily. That's that's yeah. I started off as a hypnotist. So when I was at university, I studied law as we said by. Sora guy do a show which unusually for hypnotise wasn't. It wasn't a kind of embarrassing. Festival of horrendous. Like, a lot of state ship is it was actually it was fascinating and hilarious. But it was intelligence, and it wasn't embarrassing. So I left the show that night thinking and saying to my friend. I remember I am going to I'm going to do this. So it was my first love was learning how to hypnotize. So I was student with lots of other students around me that we're really interested in in being hypnotized. So I I was desperate for the tension in the perform thing in may. And I was insecure, and I think hypnosis really taps into a desire to control mom ously as does magic and in some way. So if you don't feel very impressive in yourself both of those really tick that box and. Kind of became a real a real passion. And then I drifted in more doing close up magic because it was a bit more commercial. It was a bit of an easy thing to to actually make a living out of them hypnosis, but you kind of want certain conditions to a hundred and so on and then I I wrote I lived I never worked as a lawyer. I ju just ticking performing I've read a couple of books magicians, which got me well known in that in that world, and I drifted into this, psychological. Type of magic called to man at the time. I think they really only four or five men to surround. There's a lot more now. Probably because of the the shows I did in the UK's became very popular thing in the UK in that. I guess that's spread out of it. And I got signed up by TV company that it's been a couple of years looking for someone that could do that kind of thing. This was back in ninety nine two thousand the first special went out in two thousand on channel four in Britain. And they repeat to the show the repeat did quite well. So they commissioned another one, and then and then on that point is David Blaine just become a been a big thing. And nothing we in Britain wanted like an onset of that. And so I think I sort of fit that Nisha forbid, and then slowly it kind of became its own thing. And I that was two thousand it was a while ago. And I I grew up the desire to kind of go. Hey, look at me, anti clever became less interesting. And I realize that I think one of the reasons why magic becomes magicians subtle being interesting and then after while become easily. Kind of lampooned. Fun to make fun of is that you kind of you all just sort of posturing, and people sense that offer. Well, so I've tried to move because there is something that reads something interesting about magic. But it isn't certainly isn't a magician pretending to have special powers. That's not interesting. What's interesting to me? Is that taps into the way? We tell ourselves stories about what's real and the way we constantly editing are are experienced to to sustain a a narrative for ourselves, which we need to is. Anyway, we can navigate through life. Weirdly, a magician is providing a really neat sort of example of how that was you know, you watch a contract, and you go, well I picked a card, and then he never touched the calls and the car disappeared that was in my pocket. How did you do that you probably everything you need to answer that question? How you've seen in this happened right in front of you. But you've edited those bits out because they didn't seem important at the time. And of course, we do this all the time. So I've tried to move that is few years away from that standard remit of look at me. I'm clever to I take more of a backseat and the the stars of the shows if you like all the members of the public that are going through normally big Truman show, like psychological experiments, where they don't know that part of shows and surrounded by actors and big kind of dramatic. We ended the world for one guys clock ellipse. Yeah. So this is quite big high-concept things. He wakes up in some be infested post-apocalyptic. After we'd spent like months putting cameras in his house. Putting fake news feeds into his phone and his TV we were recording special edition, special episodes of TV shows that it wants. It would have like news guests on. So we could get well known scientists coming on and talking about Meteo strike that was going to happen. So we ended we ended the world. But actually, it was the whole thing for him was a lesson in valuing. What you have there's an old stoic lesson about to value. What you have and not take it for granted, you you should rehearse not having those things, you know. So and you kind of forced him we sort of force that. Yeah. That situation on him. But it worked it was. It was a lovely lovely thing. So, yeah, this is this sort of grown up with me ever the is. So I was really long awfully gums. Okay. I loved apocalypse, and I'll back up a little because I think a lot of people are going. What are you talking about? What we're seeing with like sacrifice, which is on. Netflix the push which is on Netflix apocalypse, which is on YouTube. Sorry, we're encouraging people to like steal your steal steal away. These are like you said the Truman show if people have seen that movie, this is everything around them as sort of staged and or fake. And so this kid wakes up said he thinks he's going to a concert or something like that with his brother, I guess wings up in fake hospital. Zombies all over the place. Some guy picks them up in a van. He's got a rescue this little girl who actually turns out to be. Well, I don't wanna spoil it, but he actually has to rescue this little girl, and he sort of finds all these levels of courage that he obviously never had because this is a guy who can't keep a job sleeps on the couch and goes drinking every night does trying to find a funded stroke, dramatic, hook and a good reason for for doing it. That's the real message of the show so sacrifice which is new ones. This this is on Netflix. So it's a bit more accessible, I take a guy who's a very right wing American die with strong anti immigration rat as he says, I'm not racist. I just I'm not ready white people. Yeah. Yeah. It's obviously he's worth maybe you should Google what racism it's actually defined as. Yeah. And I have him lay down his life for Mexican illegal immigrant to take a bullet for furniture legal immigrant in a in a essentially a gun standoff gunfight. Not a gunfire is one gun. So he fight with one gun is. But a standoff, it's. Yeah. So so so so that that's that's that's the idea. So he's part of this world. He knows that there's some filming happening because he thinks is part of a documentary. Some not completely out of it. Normally, I I I'm not in the show at all. Because obviously, people know me at least in the UK. So this was a sort of a half fiction thing. What he he felt he was part of one show then finished and was being filmed in England that he goes back home. So he's gone. The change process has happened for him. I use these psychological techniques to change him and changes feelings about immigrants in particular, open up, some empathy and change that. And then as I do this with with the shows the idea is then if they felt that if they know that being part of one show for the actual final tests that has to be no sensitive part of a TV show toll. Has to be a real life. And a life changing thing for him. So he goes, my Kobe, and then a couple of months later, we've staged thing. He doesn't realize he thinks he's going to see a friend in in Vegas, but get stuck in LA outside of LA in the desert. The car breaks down and one thing leads to another. And he's in the middle of this hidden camera elaborate experiment, wary has a gun pointed out, you know, he has a chance to step up and save a life by laying down his own extraordinary. They really emotional things to go. A clearly I mean, clearly for the guy these huge emotional things. We'll have for awesome for me. You got through the very, yeah. She spent like a year making these things and they're very ambitious and difficult. You have to sustain the whole fiction for the person going through it as well as actually do it. So yes, I've done a number of these. And they've taken an interest in illusion and persuasion and just good ways of living. And thinking and that whole business of the stories that we live by and trying to put them to. To sort of you know, good and entertaining news. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Darren Brown. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by athletic greens. I love athletic greens, and taken this stuff for a while. Jason I know you've been taken it for years, you're probably half your primate out half athletic greens, by now, I actually had some for breakfast this morning. Yeah. These things are legit. I mean, it's got a whole bunch of guy health. I'm sure that it's not just for guys by the way, but there's a whole bunch of adapted Jin's energy, immunity, booster stuff digestion antioxidants help manage stress mood, healthy ageing. What I like about it is I don't have to worry, especially when I'm traveling a bunch or eating a lot of, you know, hotel, food or conferences or training and stuff like that. I don't have to worry about the fact that I've had one salad in five days. Right. 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The skill share has come in so handy recently jen's been learning a bunch of stuff I've been cracking these things open people are starting to make skill share jokes because I've been talking about it a lot. So that's how you know, you're ineffective brand of Angeles. When people start making skill share jokes around you. So they've got like twenty five thousand classes, designed business social media marketing mobile, photography, creative writing illustration, whatever. So if you're looking for a hobby, you're looking for a side hustle. You want to learn some professional skills. Skill share will keep learning and you can hit those New Year's resolutions. I made personal growth resolutions. I hate the term resolutions. It's more of a plan, but I made them, and I will be using skill share for some of that and classes are better than books for learning actual skills. 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Thanks for listening in supporting the show to learn more about our sponsors and get links to all the great discounts. You just heard visit Jordan, harbinger dot com slash deals. If you'd like some tips on how to subscribe to the show, just go to Jordan, harbinger dot com slash subscribe. Now back to our show with Darren Brown. What are we actually seeing here because I think a lot of people when they think hypnosis they're thinking, and I've seen this elsewhere in your work where they're carrying the guy outside and he wakes up on the lawn. And he's like, well, how did I get outside? And then he walks back in people or somebody's gonna walk around on stage. And then click like a chicken, we don't necessarily think of a subtle psychological manipulation or hypnotic suggestion when just kind of what's happening with especially in sacrifice where you're playing a jingle and it cues something up. Yeah. These sort of suggestions to get people to take certain courses of action it if you don't know anything about what you're doing. There's probably plenty of people online. I haven't seen this. But I would imagine there's a lot of people that go. This is just fake the guys pretending. I've always had a lot of a lot of that. I think it's many maybe because it's it's not necessarily stuff that would work on everybody. So with most of the shows, and it varies the most of the shows, I'm using people that I've selected from group of applicants, and you see this is how the shows start here all the applicants, and I've got to choose one. And I'll choose the person that I think is suitable. So in the sacrifice the guy fill that we use I needed somebody with these strong views, but also somebody who's suggestive. And and and also it's important with him. He's not like a monster racist guy, his actually although you probably saw it off not liking him very quickly. You kind of. Be kind of filled enough of the gun release. It goes on bad for him. Initially just didn't seem like the sharpest like something. He'd obviously gone through something that made him dislike people that weren't white. He said it was his upbringing. But it might have also been maybe couldn't get a job. And he was having a rough time as easy scapegoat. Yeah. And so yeah, I wanted to kind of every man figure that we kind of sort of relate to as well, not just a monster monster racist guy. So so maybe that's one reason that people on totally understand people to skeptical because the coin ambitious things, but if you choose a guy if you choose somebody that choose the right person it obviously makes life. So I'm not saying these techniques that I use it would just welcome everybody that Trump of the how they wouldn't try and explain that throughout the show. Once I've got my guy. What I'm generally doing is attaching strong emotions to certain triggers, so either overtly with my involvement or completely covertly and just something that happens in the guys live normally I'll make some event happened that makes him feel something very strong emotion. And then they'll be a sound or thing that he sees or something that happens environment the steals that it's like, you know, when you break up with a girlfriend and never some sewn playing on the radio on at the time. And yet hit this home for five years. And then you hear it again, it brings back all those feelings. Right. So it's actually very straightforward sort of conditioning. Really injuring is that what that LP language, it's anchoring or it's conditioning or it's triggering whatever. Yeah. But it's that's the idea you just kinda tach ING emotions to to triggers. So again normally with this shows and sacrifices, a good example. I want to get somebody in. Three point where they do something extraordinary on life changing for them without the nothing that that's what the show's about. So I can never approach directly. But what I can do is break down. I kind of look at this. Final thing. I want him to put his own life on the line and save a life for somebody else. Who's the loss person he'd have estan dominant will? So I kind of break that down. I think what what are the components of that that a needed and the newbie this things on their own can be framed is entirely positive, and quite of benign things that why wouldn't anybody wanted to be moral like the designed to act and to feel more empathy will be more open or whatever. So I create situations where those things can be explored and created within him. And then I touched them secretly. Two triggers on then in the end scenario. I could play present those triggers at the same time. And hopefully with the rush of all those things as they come together and the situation that's being presented in front of him. And this sort of opportunity, that's that's their hopefully, he takes the bait. That's that's the idea. I need is. You know, he's a changed man. Because of its yeah. I would imagine he has to rationalize that. He did that of his own free will so he couldn't possibly actually dislike. Yeah. But it was it was. It's it's I mean with some of the shows I did one that was about taking actually very similar structure the to make people hold up security van and still one hundred thousand downs. It's called the highest to get it's an oldest show is gonna be on YouTube somewhere. We'll we'll put links to all these. So that people come I highly recommend because sometimes are hard to find. There's little you watch them in the US ones. Yeah. That one was fascinating the one where they're holding up because I just thought all he all you did was well, there was all this prep. But then the trigger was just on the phone with them. And then suddenly they're walking down this empty street, and they decide to hold up the armored car, and I thought, but there's like five different triggers that going off right Hala, the color of this color is important as a slogan is a bit of music plays in a call that drives past. So I use I use some techniques to Creighton an assassination. So the idea was to see whether Sosa Sahan Sahan who's the guy still imprisoned full assassinating. Bobby Kennedy always said that he was hypnotized by the CIA. And it should it become one of those conspiracy. Right. Like, oh, maybe he was. Yeah. Well, it's just it's sort of the the question for me was regardless of whether he was a Wilson is it even possible as even plausible that sort of? And he laid out what they did. And how they did it. Oh, he did. Yeah. Yeah. He's got the whole story of how they did it, which is his story. I mean, he's he's also quite plausible guys. There was really enticing premise could you do that? Could you have somebody genuinely believe him at the last minute? It's a blind bullet. It's not a real it's not a real bullets. I don't actually get a home anybody as far as concerned is is associating somebody using the same techniques. Wasn't. He said he was on stage who was the audience in on it the audience would not in on. So they must have freaked out. Well, that was another thing that was interesting. So yeah. So basically, the guy has gone through again what he thinks is a documentary about hypnosis, which allows me to set up some of these triggers without him realizing full because I couldn't open the hypnotize him as. Pot of one TV show he thinks bottle when actually there's a hidden agenda. So the situation arises when he's just gone to an event nothing to do with us has no idea it was being filmed the audience not in on a toll Stephen Fry whose target is. Stephen is on it. And he's wearing Squibb's and everything he knows scared. He knows this might happen. So he's out on stage. And then we set off these triggers, and it was a polka dot dress. Which Sahan Sahan said was one of the triggers that they use that conditioned him to feel certain things with the Pocono address. There was a ringtone that we used someone's phone went off, and it was a little jingle little Choon that he'd also been conditioned with. And would he do it? Now, he does do it not dive. It's it's a spoiler. But he does do it. But it was interesting because we had we had this whole crowd control thing setup. Because what happens when the three hundred even the audience free impede ones right now. They didn't. Because there was this thing called normalcy bias, which means in these emergency situations. You just you sit and you look around no one else's panicking. Say you don't have the thing. Everyone guy. Oh, it's fake because why didn't the audience freak out, but they didn't freak out because they don't freak out. This is a story of pan. Am flight that had it landed on a Fulbe runway at night and another plane taken off over the top of it and rip the side of this plane off and there was a period of a few minutes that people could escape before this plane was engulfed in flames. And the only people that did with ones that I've been in a similar situation before or had training in this kind of world everyone else to south there and just burn because they look around and someone will take care of it. It's fine. Vice Stander affect is. Yeah. It is. It is that it's like if you have an emergency. You know, there's going to be a flood with is going to be, you know, you're just sort of always will be fine. It's not really going to affect me. Right. Is that natural bias to was. It'll be fine. If this house was on fire right now, and you didn't move. I probably be like, oh, it's just one of DARREN'S like things that he's yen is such a great example. Isn't it farnum goes off the one thing, you know, is it isn't a real fine. One thing you don't think is so many ways that was that was that was interesting aspect of it. But Jess without that sort of what I do my background is in magic, and sort of mind reading area of magic. And over the years, I've tried to move into this other. But I also do stage shows so you hope now should be in Broadway. This year, I didn't know fool by show for which we won the drama desk. A won't which is a no kidding. I think it was most unique unique kissed states. Production is is one of those words. That would be. But it was something about that. Which is very which is amazing. But yeah, so that that I did this off by fashion couple of years ago, and hopefully hopefully this year hopefully in the spring, I should be they're doing a Broadway version, so that is more of a kind of more traditional kind of state Shelvin it. But even then I try another loss show is about faith healing. I did faith. That was awesome. I this is our Netflix miracle. It's it's really good. I'm trying not to be super fanning all over because I. Yes, sir. No, let's let's lease left. My ego. It's fine. That was really interesting. And that's something. I want to ask about more later. But I know you were a Christian until it was at your mid twenties. Yeah. Yeah. I was until. Yeah, it's supposed to mid universities at a time. Yeah. When you look at historical healers old biblical miracle stories and things like that knowing what you know now about influence persuasion psychology, illusions, how much how much are allusions high tech, and how much do you think wait a minute. This this technology if you will it was around three thousand years ago. This could be fake. This could have been something somebody did too as a scam. And now it's now it's this law that we base our lives of on. I think well, I think in terms of I sort of have people all sometimes what would you think the miracles in the bible, but just magic tricks. I think it's sort of the wrong question. I think the how those stores arrive is more think more to do with how those how those titles get formed off. The event. So that you can you know, if you're if you're a young Christian community growing up in some other part of the world, and you kind of need your ram, you need your backstory to justify your response to the difficult is that you're facing in your own time. So you need your you need us stores, and it was very sanded in those days to to recreate stores and put words in the mouth of people your view if you'll figure you'll good long since died. So I think a lot of that store is really just things that have come out since two in order to to tell a story or teacher lesson that is useful for this communities hundred two hundred years later, so I think that's more than well. Geraint raw Robin, actually, how did he turn the Welsh into wino- chemistry, which they didn't have? Now. It's this. Yeah. That makes sense you hear about like Roman writings than having some quote from like, I dunno Marcus are really whatever. And then it's like, oh, wait a minute. Now that was said by this prophet. And it's like, well, we have this written over here in this other part of the world, and then it went out through through Greece. And then suddenly by this religious guy. I mean, we look at the the oracle Delfi that people were receiving these amazing messages, and then maybe also hallucinogenics involved. But essentially, it seemed to be people sort of wanting to believe something and letting information sit and taking ideas that would probably quite general in symbolic, let them fit the specifics. And that's really no different to what you know, medium. Does today. I think that is hot capacity for self-deception, or at least two full narrative that serves us from whatever information being given that seems to be ages old. And just part of who we all. It is interesting to see even now something that you. You'd think people have gotten the memo about such as cold reading in psychic fraud. There's a video you did. I don't know ten plus years ago now where I I'll show people this because they'll go a friend of mine goes I went to this fair at my university when I was visiting my sister or his alma mater, and they had a psychic there. And I thought oh what the hell and oh my gosh. I think maybe there's something to this. And I said let me guess he's an Indian guy who's a graphic designer. And I said all called read you, I'm not psychic. Here's what I got your parents are disappointed in your choice of occupation. They want you to be a doctor or lawyer or professional your mom's really said. But she's just glad you're happy. She really is more concerned with who you marry your dad. However, he wishes that you could have done something a little bit more quote unquote respectable. They don't understand the work that goes into your craft. And he's like, whoa. Aren't you psychic? And I'm like, I'm telling you, I told, you know, you're just like every other Indian dude in America whose parents are immigrants graphic design literally you didn't. Didn't become a doctor or a lawyer. You're part of your family's disappointed your mom wants you to marry an Indian girl and your dad is kind of annoyed that you didn't become an engineer. The end like this is universal. And then you get the worst things I've seen sitting in a studio audience. You know, the song kicks come out on on a TV show. They have their audience. And then before they started filming this guy comes out and says send you putting hoping that someone's going to come through today. And we'll these hands go up, and he just people. So who did you lose? How did they die? What was the name is the summit of information? That would prove to you that it's genuinely them people are just giving this information, then they start the cameras rolling. And he comes out and says all that stuff straight back. And it's if you have a dose of skepticism they going so transparent is yeah. But if I think because the lie is so ugly. It's just so much easier to believe how he must be doing it for real because he wouldn't just be asking us what to say. And then just saying it just to make cry because it looks good on camera. Surely wouldn't just be doing that he'd have to be like proper pass. Mr. That'd be really nothing. So I think I think it's easier to believe the the line because it's it's sometimes the truth is so ugly having said that although I I've spent a lot of my career debunking that stuff again, I think the I think it's more interesting than the question of all is psychic powers real of the mediums real. Well, I mean, no. But I think that's not. It's not really that. Interesting. Interesting question to me is why are the mediums so perennially popular? And what is it about on narratives around death? For example. You know, as we as we dispense with superstition so much of the last couple of hundred years, particularly anything morbid, and that now death is now something that is to be full tough all means is the becomes became the enemy all system of medicine. A couple of hundred years ago is still the engine Greek medicine about humas and the phlegm in the fire and the vile and all of that. I mean, there's any fanny recently we've sort of embraced what? To us now seems proper medicine everybody a few hundred years ago, so given that and given the lack of cultural narrative now around death that provides would provide as base it a real. Meaning we don't have. We don't have any meanings around Beth. I'm like a lot of cultures that do so this. So the only real narrative we have in place now is is the the brave battle at someone's fighting. That's that's that's a sort of a narrative that tends to fit into place. It doesn't do any good for the poll person. That's dying. Of course makes everybody else. I think feel better for that. One person you now getting failure to alone list of problems that are already exists. So it kind of makes sense that that one time when actually because he's the one time, and you need to be most aware of the narrative that you're forming when you wanna take authorship of you'll story because you know, when a book finishes that lost seen or a film finishes that loss in it makes sense of everything that's happened before. And it doesn't happen in life. Right. So we have to. Just end. So we have to really find our in stores at this time that matters most. And it there's nothing that help us for that. If we don't find it on run because there's all those narratives of sort of gone, we don't really respect that anymore. But of course, this opens up a big gap for any told ry peddler of share some semblance of meaning to come on pack out. Right. We're filling the gap in got guys. Like Ari Geller like outright charlatans that just have. No shame whatsoever. That guy must be some kind of sociopath or something. I mean, he just has no qualms about telling people that he's talking with their dead, relative or taking money and going this is where your family members theory. Does I think he's avoid to that? I think it's he's avoid very just into positive thinking. Now, I think he's more self help guy now. Yeah. I don't know. But certainly there are plenty of people that do not one of my stage shows I had fifty people up on stage. And I would do this kind of thing. And I was I would do the medium ship and at the same time be debunking it. So I would be giving information that was. Totally correct. Got you'll grandmother here. Her name's Alice. And she's saying she's not saying anything, I'm lying to you understand this. But she's saying that teddy in that used to play with teddy when you were young I'm just making this up, but is destroyed. Yes. So I was sort of trying to keep it in that interesting. It's fake. It's real at the really early on in the run. I went out to stage door was talking to people off to his and signing things. And the skill set to me, can you can you put me in touch with my grandmother. And I said, what do you do get from the show that I'm not really doing it? I'm trying to kind of debunk in show that it's not real. And she don't annoy you, I know it's not real. But could you could you put me in touch with our man? It was fascinating. Just how festival how you can completely hold those two realities right on. And what what that is just what appeal. I mean. I'm you know. You know, I don't believe in any of that. But but I lost my grandfather. Shortly offers us talking to woman who said she was psychic. And when she started to say on he's here is here in the room. Now, it's hard to just let that me nothing and just rush out of you. I mean, you only they're gonna get annoyed about it. Which actually was mine response. That's not what tone tacky just tacky. Or you want to do. What's what did you say that? But it's it's it's very hard to select that, right? Like you want it so bad, and there's a point zero zero one percent chance that this is real like, I'm going to hear this person out, and you just get emotionally invested in rapid their feeding you I guess at that point. Yeah. And I did a whole documentary series called Durham Brown investigates. And I would suspend time with people that were making some sort of supernatural claims of some sort and one of them one of these guys psychic, and I think by any standards he was fake. I mean looking back on it. I mean, the we just caught him. 'cause you can come prove a negative county. But it's closed you can catch someone to cheating. I mean, we just sort of did again, and again, so there's really no doubt about it in that sense bought despite the fact that he's seemed to be clearly just getting information from here in passing it off as something else. He's still I think in the industry way, maybe I'm just being charitable, but sort of still believed it, and if he was having people say to him. Yes, you must be psychic. And you'll help me by saying this he was sort of helping people in the noise able to rationalize this in his own mind. It just felt like a strange sort of closed loop that he was in. I thought well maybe in a weird way. Maybe he is. He is the psychic. He's playing that role. And and. Also, why is he letting me into even fill them? Anyway, if he knows if you know that you'll just fake why would you risk that sort of exposure? And it was just it was interesting to see when you get close to it. How it so very gray complex area from the outside. It's an easy. Yes. On is. It real isn't note. We'll know, but as you get into I think is a very rich. Interesting Arab again, how we just how the stories that we foam and what we will. We need to hear. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Darren Brown. 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I think it was like a scuba instructor. And you take it for like, six months, and you're like, you're going to be a faith, and it really looked a party and long hair and dressed up sharply in a suit, and then he comes to the United States and he fills half fills this room because he didn't want it. He didn't want to abuse this publicist to fill the room up massively. He's trying to convince people that he's a faith healer. And then at the end is kind of like, and this is completely fake, and people are just crying because they wanted to believe it, and it's it's almost like a a medical procedure on a child where you're like, I hate hurting this kid, but I can't leave this. Yes, you really sensitive. Tricky. A tricky thing that was that was my first taste of the faith healing. So in the last this last stage show, which is the one on. A Netflix could miracle. I did it myself because I was I just really got the bug frit by from training this other guys the other show was called miracles for sale which was a channel four show a few years ago. And yeah, it's just a documentary following this guy. It was it was so interesting. I think what the well. Well, what I learned from doing it myself in the state show is the it's the psychological component of suffering. So cutting to the state show that I did. So an audience that are skeptical light me they are not coming to the show thinking is going to be any hailing which is your biggest biggest weaponry as a as a halo two weapons about the real world. But what makes it work? Normally is you have an audience of believers that are already expecting to see some. So they're bringing their already psychologically prepared for it. And I I I'm going out doing the show two thousand people in the olden something, I really don't know if he's going to work. I'd enough things. I could kind of work mechanically like the some of the tricks that they use what I can I can get through that section and get to the end and have an ending. But if it doesn't really work much on that, then I'll think of something else about and I just say to the audience on know, you don't believe in this anymore than I did. But just go I'm going to play the part of the healer and just go with it. Because it's it's it's interesting and people did and then like within isn't. Just I thought people would come up and they'd say, oh, well, you know, my my back hurt. And now, it doesn't that'd be these small improvements. But I had people, you know, slain in the spirit, which is when you know, you touch someone the head collapsed shaking on the floor and was going on there. I found what did work was showing middle. Clips of when I'm talking about faith just little clips that would just show those little scenes like that. And it's just kind of know it too. Which is exactly what at the is. Anyway, because you're seeing it happen again and again on stage, so you'll sort of being educated as an audience member without realizing the suggestion is is is settling in. But I remember within the first week. There was a woman who came up she'd been paralyzed on one side of a body since he was a kid and she's in floods of tissues, forty something. I guess and can move move her arm. And knowing off tonight that were these it varied, but very often quite dramatic very physical things. I mean, nothing's changing if you had an x-ray before and after clearly there's no chain, but in that gray area that's more about again to repeat myself the story that they've settled into about the island. You know, if you wake up every day believing what I can't do this because I have this does the author world create the problem. What maybe the physical side might have lied about shoulder for long time. I still have and I say used to putting on my jacket with like a bit of a dead, arm and pulling pulling the sleeve up with this. I still do that. I don't know if I really need to do that now. And if somebody got me up and said your shoulder is healed to made a big fast. I said now go on not put your jacket on normally. I'm a bit of adrenalin that's going to kill the pain. Anyway, by probably be fooled into thinking. Oh my God. You've just healed my shoulder. Had that years. So it's that sort of process, but the results were extrordinary, and even then I saw to think, well, maybe I could do this on a grand scale, and I could tell people it's entirely secular thing, and it may not work. It may only world for the ten minutes, you're on stage, or it may stay or it met, you know. But that's when you do start to get mad and get into whole ethical world of pain because my doing this for their own good. And so it's okay. If I'm yeah. Exactly. How do you not stop mad once you've once you've seen that? But it got it was it was extraordinarily. And really only opening literally opening sometimes, you know, blind things like share again, not not full like, you know. Ganic blindness. But so it's like if they're. Sideline clear, but they're only like maybe eighty percent deaf. So now they're convinced they can hear out of that ear lots of tricks around that that they use. Then you're in the world of sort of moving out of the suggestion that makes it work into just tricks. Some of the mechanical tricks that I've sort of been put through by healers as a law Beaumont, you see it on YouTube. But if you type in leg length, that's the one. Yeah. You see one where they just loosen up the person's shoes. Yes. Obvious. Look what it sort of. I if you believe it, right? It's such a stupid trick that I think if you if you pro Chit a someone that believes it looks like someone's here's a guy with a short leg, which is why the limp, and now we're going to lengthen the Lord's going to lengthen this person's leg, and as you look this person's leg. I mean, the the heels are sort of in the hills palms like this you see this legs stretch out. And then they without a limp. And it's one of the oldest tricks, and I have sat on stage and had the guy do it to me. You choose someone with shoes that you can loosen. And actually what you do is you you everyone's watching this leg lengthen. So you don't do the trick on that leg. You do the trick on the other leg you. You've pulled festival. They don't live, right. There is no problem with the like, you just say limping is what they just sort of go. Well, I didn't see him limp. But he said he was wanting to be not must have just missed that. You think you've seen it then that they hold the feet like this and they pull out one. So the other foot the other shoe is just pulled off a he'll little bit. So now, it does look like if you measure the legs this this is a little longer. Therefore, this one's too short. Actually, this is fine. This one you just pulled the hill of and then everyone's watching this. And you're saying this foot is lengthening you just slowly pushing this heel of the shoe slowly back onto that foot. But it doesn't look like if you're watching the other leg, it kind of looked like I'm watching the short-leg you're watching you're watching the other ones. It's sort of believable interesting. And then you get into run around and say, look, no limping they can run around fine. And everyone thinks healings happened. They could run find. Anyway, I have been bought out the audience and had this domain by quite big name healer in Dallas while we make in that documentary show, and the really interesting part of it, I left with was isn't remotely fooling for the person going through it and just how old Lee kind of insulting. That is. There's no sense of doing any good for that person. It's just about the showmanship is just about creating an effect the audience, you'll really kind of odd wasn't bothered by it. But you exploiting potentially very vulnerable person. Who's they're wanting a healing. God is what's wrong with them for just that? I mean, it was it was just sort of ugly ugly thing. It reminds me of Andy Andy kopplin. That's right. The filipino. Are. I don't know like Thailand healer, and he just starts laughing because he's looking down is this guy sort of like scrapes, bloody chicken meat guts. And he's like, oh, man. Yeah. Same thing. Right. He's he's since it's being done on him. And he sees it. He just goes this is all bullshit. Yeah. Which I've done that on stage as well. That's howling out the chicken from holding up the bits of us to bits of sponge was a bit less gross to do every night. But yeah, otherwise chicken entrails is what gets you, and you're kind of reaching into someone's stomach and pulling the stuff out, and again, not always very convincing for the person. Give because it's like, oh, I'm not feeling anything. Oh, well, I have a magic spell. So you don't feel the pain is your cancer is bad Steph, where do people learn this stuff? There's the camp. I haven't looked online. But I assume there's no school for like, hey, you want to become a con artist. Here's a bunch of faith healing tricks. Yeah. Do you know the really for me, the interesting part of it? It's it's it's a strange how between that and say the secrets the right burn manifesting thing. Yeah. Here's the message is and it's a sort of faith model. But the message is like throw your pills away. The Lord is healed you and if if any point this illness returns, which of course, it's going to right? That's because you didn't have enough faith maybe even thought about taking a pill again, or what are the way? It's your fault Sundays in the multiple. And it certainly isn't the heat is full. It's your fault because you didn't have enough faith and in the secret. She explicitly says that it is it is your fault. You didn't believe enough? You didn't know how you're supposed to visualize. Whatever it is. You you want which is Saturday always about money and jewelry. Yeah. I want to be religious necklace. And and then you have to act as if you've already got the thing you have to totally commit to it, which I think he's such a damaging. It's the same thing. The problem is just great songs onto in the feeling of failure and self blame. When of course that is sometimes not going to work that model of believe in yourself, ignore the haters ignore. The height is ignore the naysayers believe in yourself have a vision stick to it is occasionally motive success. It's also a perfect little failure. The Trump has been ever read the bog or visit the businessmen who who failed because we don't read those called survivor bias. Yes. So you follow your dreams? And it's like, oh that sounds great. Look, Mark Cuban's grace and rich entrepreneur says it, well, there's a ten thousand other people for each one of them who is out of their moms couch guy from apocalypse. Yeah. Has gone on following my passion, but I just not making any money. Yeah. Exactly. And you don't tend to read I got lucky. I got really locking right now. No, we we see the guy who spent thirty thousand hours trying to figure out how to get people to be persuaded by jingle and a fake news story. In their psychological triggers. How much practice do you think you've had altogether forty thousand dollars thirty thousand dollars you ever tried? No. I I don't know. I started when I was twenty and forty seven now if I self scattered but good. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That's a it's a lot of it's a lot of practice in a lot of trial and error. I would imagine. Yeah. I remember having a real seminal moment in I had people would come to my rooms as when I was a student ties them, and I remember, I I leave them if they were responsive if they if they were good I'd leave them with a suggestion if they came back, and I said sleep click my fingers that go straight to sleep you need that needs that we got jet lag for days. She's gone. She's gone. Sorry. That's not totally. And this guy come back with us before. I said okay, sit down look at me sleep any went straight out. And then I we did whatever the hypnosis was. And then afterwards, I realized I'd never met him before. So then I'm thinking, well how how did use none of the groundwork? None. None of the was there. So why did he respond to make licking my fingers and saying sleep, which clearly there's nothing magical about doing that? And then I thought okay, what it was actually just my my belief in my confidence at the time. Just and the fat again. Luckily, he was very suggestive oil made that work. So that things like that just come not from necessarily the house. I mean, they do I guess, but then it's not about technique per se other than just realization of I think all I do is all everything I do is about seeing the thing from another person's point of view. And just that's the toolbox. That's the that's the toolkit is someone else's ongoing. What doing population is that suggestive oil where you'd think maybe you can just get him to sleep or maybe not quite that suggestive will. But it probably. As people respond. Well to placebo is probably dealing with the same kind of independ- diagram of those things. It's thirty percent. Maybe something like that. But like. But then it depends what you want. So when I'm doing my stage shows, and I've got a couple of thousand people like with with the faith healing that. I was doing, you know, I might get three hundred people come forward from an audience of say say three thousand and then I might get like the best ten up. So now, you're dealing with such a small. Yes, january. The always as always going to be an that one percent in a room is always going to be kind of extraordinary isn't. So that helps that kind of thing helps it doesn't mean they might feel like the whole audience is responding to something is the reality is you whittling down to the to the best. So you can create Lucien of it'd be more success is. Yeah. That makes sense. What are you looking for with these adjustable like in in the push, for example, you test them? Hey who stands up and sits down when they hear the bell. Yes. Netflix. But other things were are you ever just walking down the street, and you see somebody, and you go this person has these non verbal characteristics of highly suggestive oil type of person is that does that exist. I've done it for a long time. And I I've given. Up trying to do that. Because I don't I'm always surprised by. Openness and a natural tendency to sort of go along with ideas. And so on feels like it should be a good signify of suggests ability and a lot of the time it is. But I know how I am socially with people. I probably seem like that was I'm not very good hypnotic subject. But I probably am quite responsive to maybe things like CBA. We'll things like. I don't know just an expert that I admire telling me stuff that I'm going to absorb and take on my own which is another form of suggestive Minniti, but I'm not very responsive to hypnotists hypnotize me. I think something in my ego sort of maybe and likewise people that seem very standoffish and. Seem very kind of, you know, detached arms folded like the loss person, you'd think would respond sometimes that all comes from an old Lee insecure place, and if you get them into the right sort of type of interaction is they suddenly become hyper responsive, so I've given up I've given up trying to predict it. I I do it in situations where I can throw it out over a large number of people and work with the ones that right? And look for interesting. How do you come up with some of the tricks of the allusions I just kind of like you're walking through the mall with your partner? And you're like, you know, what if I made something like that come to life, and then vanished that would be cool right now. I don't know. Maybe no I normally have a two week period where we'll say with the state shows. It's like maybe a month. But the TV shows maybe couple of weeks. I've got to think of an idea. So the TV has nothing to do with like. Magic effects of any sort. It's something like well. Can we like in the push for example? She's is another one on Netflix. We were thinking about. Coming up. We'll ideas specific plots one of these things to put somebody through and then out of a sort of frustration. It's I'll come just it's a big party. Everyone's an actor off from one person. And can we make that one person to throw someone off a roof? Just so sometimes out of. There's an idea that I watched quite. Yeah. All right, cool. So now, it's an exercise in social compliance at the first thing, they're also the helping out at the party the first thing that has to do is to miss label meat filled sausage rolls as vegetarian sausage rolls. So they they like is that little bit of kind of you know. Get your foot in the door with the little thing there also and then bit by bit. Could you build up the point that they would actually kill somebody because that tells us that became that became the show? So it's that really excuse trying to come up with a fund strong hook. And then make sure that the the shows kind of got a good reason in a good message. And after the show and social compliance that one the push went out in Britain a few years. Two thousand sixteen or something. But some of the laws fee is that idea of like good people doing bad things, and how we can get persuaded by these narratives that we buy into become more relevant. So it sort of became became a different show somehow when it was put on the Bush on Netflix that pushes probably one of my favorites, if not my apps because of the social compliance aspect, and because when you watch that unless you are really good at rationalizing things to yourself, even even I know at certain extent, what you're doing with the little vegetarian flags or like getting people to sort of dig a little deeper into the lie that they're telling unless you are really really in denial. I think all of us can watch that and go shoot I could have probably done up to this point. Like, I wouldn't kill the guy. I would have given the speech about the Halim the donor. I probably would've like not have hidden the body. I wouldn't have kicked the dead guy. Put what I what I've kicked the dead guy. I mean, he's dead. Getting was watching I through most of my career. I've had people say to me all I wouldn't. I wouldn't do this run a done that. But I wouldn't have done that. And I think what's what's interesting to me is how we think about what we would do with the sense of self that we have which we think of in isolation, we think of ourselves, and again, this is this is an enlightenment idea that stuck around that we all sort of these that we should be these separate entities that are not being influenced by other people around us that we should be. Cetera. Smart defense. I'm too. Yes. Wouldn't work on me. I'm too smart. I'm too principled to insert good positive quality here. This guy would never be able to fool uncles that. That idea of the self light. That was born at a time when it was important not to be influenced too much by the church or the king. There was actually making a statement of saying that we all we should be free. Individuals is important, but we've bought so much into that idea that we miss that actually the self. I think is is a verb. I think we sell it's something that's very active, and it expands out fluidly into our environment into our relationships. And and it's very hard to make judgments about what you would do in a situation, wouldn't you know in that situation. And that's even something that extreme as murder you. It's. It you just can't judge you judgment distance and say what I wouldn't. I wouldn't do that. Because you'll make that decision isolation. At is totally different. And that's when when you're there and to me that is it's fascinating. Because it's I mean the shows it's funny and it's a bit like a weekend burn is. That was the kind of inspiration from it. Then the guys go Bernie the counter to the dominant. Yeah. I never thought that I and it's but actually at its heart was I think to me thing. Yes. The social how far compliance go. But also what? Our sense of self is. And how that drastically changes from context to context, how do you test this kind of stuff because I'm imagining how do you test whether someone's going to rob an armored car? You can't really none right now. You mean, the whole thing could just end up not working. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So then then well, there's different ways of doing it. So in some shows, we can be following four or five people. So it isn't just hoping that it doesn't need to work on all of them. Because I you've that's your result. If it worked one out of five worked in one out of five in a show like sacrifice, which is the current one. If he doesn't do the thing at the end, there's no going back and doing it again, you say you we're gonna read that. So you'd have to find a way of letting that failure sick within the narrative that would that maybe continue and find another way of going away finishing was to leave you with a satisfying ending. So that's that's the joy. Of TV. It's not changing what happened? But you can you can let what happened sit within a story that can of course, continue, and you can be truthful, but still make story satisfies fade is important and their failures within that show sacrifice a part of it. And they sit they sit fine within it. I think it's a bit like a juggler dropping a ball, honestly, occasionally, it's good to be reminded. These things aren't on just going to happen. Want to jump off into the rock? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that's that's all right that failure. But like if he was like, I'm not taking a bullet for that guy. Shoot him. Shoot him. Can't you know? Now, what do we do with the production where he just looks terrible. But it would have been I mean, it would have been amazing to watch that and see fail. And then you'd be like, what are they going to do? Right. How they going to get out of the and then so that's that's still an interesting dramatically. Interesting place is that up to us to show that we do do something. Interesting nervous for you. When I say that though because I'm imagining you're in this control room going just shoot him jump in there. Please I've got to go to the bathroom hungry. Desert shithole town for like three weeks, filming this just shoot him and get it over with and shoot him before she must. Shoot them or give me the gun. Yeah. Exactly. Have you had ever had close calls where it's like someone almost blows it like they're setting something up and the guy gets home from work early. And you're like, don't leave the shed. Oh, we've had. Nathan shed. There was actually one of the show in apocalypse, and this is the end of the world wide zombie one. So yeah, so we had it's just a glimpse of how much work goes into these shows. So we had we'd recorded a special episode of a TV show that he watched. It wasn't that. It was the electrical interference from the Meteo. So we were taking things out of his call that the call this call wouldn't start and the phone. These phone would die in the TV suddenly just died. Right. As watching it at it's hoping explained by this mornings on the radio about electrical interference. So to make that happen. We go to guys in the shed in the garden. I don't know why we had to, but we did who going to pull the just the cable, but they couldn't leave this little garden shed to go because the ruin that he's watching TV and backs onto the Bank. So he might see them. He's bedroom does the same. So they had to sleep these two guys out to sleep in this. This is off like three months without a day off. Anyway, this shit level of work on these is just enormous for this one at the moment. No-one really remembers from the show is not part the drama. It's just a fun little bit. So yeah, it does happen. But the the other thing is which has sort of I've realized over the is of making them that we're all a lot more nervous about the fiction being rumbled than we need to. Because if you if you having dinner with Jen hip apps in a in a fashionable London restroom, and you spotted a camera behind a Kuttan, you wouldn't think. Okay. All right. This whole thing is fake. All these people are actors jars around I would be excited if you'd be. With somebody left a camera. Exactly. So many get stolen. We've had a couple of near misses like that. We will be. Like that about. And actually, I love that. I've never seen that expression. But I know exactly what I am definitely going to use that for those of you couldn't see that is this question the spending all the my career that. I can't believe I where what have I done my whole life. Now having this exactly now you have to to civilize couldn't be more perfect yet. Because I'm imagining imagine those two guys in the shed going. You know, I think I'm going to apply to that job that office job after all freezing their ass off in the shed in the middle of winter. And that was a tough. It was a tough job for everyone. It's eight months, and there's never enough budget because things so this chess everyone's living on God who writes all the dialogue for people to really understand this very much is the Truman show like there's a fake chaired the in the push. There's a fake charity gala security team for the gala. There's gathering team for the Gallo. There's only gifts there's all these people attending. There's our service. There's the assistant and there's formers or whatever and the hotel. Everybody's in on that. You can't have people wondering in that aren't part of it. Well, that's team is really helpful. And they have to be like secret productivity. Oh, yeah. It's on the other thing is like you putting somebody through something quite potentially quite duck. Even if the end result is a positive one less than in the push. It was quite doc. So you you've got to make sure that the robust enough, psychologically. So there's a whole vetting procedure that has to happen with those people as well. But again, they don't know that that newly that told them not being used applied to be bought the show, then they told sort of not gonna use you and then month by that point they've signed they wind. The thing that lets us use them, and then months later it'll happen so you have to vet them. So they have to go through sort of independent, psychological prec- as with with a psychologist to make sure the rebuffed enough because if they're going to witness a car crash, you call and have them having witnessed a traumatic question that we younger that sort of thing. So you go to psychiatrist to knows or psychologists who knows the plot. But it you've got to they have to do that. But also believe that everybody else is doing that. Because otherwise, it would tip to them that that being used for those totally out of things that you never even see in the show, but just the level of work. Yeah. That's to exist around it to make sure that it and all the people that like you've got to have that person's wife or girlfriend or boyfriend whatever involved to make sure that that she go to this event that we stayed. What did they change their mind at the most? I have a headache. I'm gonna bail on. Yeah. Why don't you go? Just bring the chance I much. Yeah. It reminds me of his apprised birthday party ahead in Germany and like nine hundred ninety eight and I wasn't going to go out that night. And I told my friend Peggy who'd set the whole thing up. I said I didn't really wanna come out tonight. What were you going to do if I was like, I got a headache? And she's like, yeah. We thought about that. Because you know, I'm Mr. I don't wanna go out tonight like back, then as far I don't wanna get on the bus. It's cold. She's like we goes all the way to Germany. You're this elaborate plan of her coming over and being like she had a whole big idea. She was going to like she said the idea that was in her back pocket was she was going to tell me that her friend and her wanted to like give me some sort of special birthday present if you will. And I was like that would have worked keeping close close to. And so is it was good as but I would have been really disappointed. If all I got was the surprise crate and was my saw there was a president of that. That was fake. I'm going back. You often show that people are being primed to pick the giraffe or two. Draw something how much of it. And then you say, well, look, here's how we primed them this display. This billboard had a giraffe on this kid's shirt had adrenalin it. And then when they were on the bus. There was the word draft was written on the window. Is that the real explanation or is that like, oh crap? We did this trick. And now, we've gotta show the audience why this person did this. It really varies. I mean, these this sort of stuff I used to do years ago and haven't done for a long time now, but in the same way that when Penn and teller would reveal the trick. They it wasn't just a witless reveal his how he did it you show the method when the method was more interesting actually than the trick. So what you go away with his autism. Shutter. It was done. It was really clever. It's probably more clever than the numb how you how you have to do that. Right. Because the the overall effect that you want to communicate is the joy of watching how it's done. So that was sort of the approach that I took as well with those things. So the a mixture of kind of real sort of tweaked. I'd say something he theatrically kind of tweaked because ultimately that's the bit that, you know, that's going to be the the refund pot of seeing how it was that was done. And also, you can anybody showed the stuff that's sort of visual because it's like watching it on TV. And some of the stuff is is you're trying to tell a story very neatly of how you did. It doesn't always lend itself to those that kind of clear visual narrative, so this. Yeah, it's sort of a mixed. But I kind of figured I had licensed to approach it with the same kind of sensitive theaters. As the trick itself. I think you have to write because if the answer is, oh, well, that's just a guy with my same building a mask. It's like oh. But if it's like, no this group of kids had the t shirt, and then there's the sign on the pub as they were driving. They saw three billboards and they've been here all week driving back and forth. So it's been repeated in there. It's just like the principles are sound enough. They would feel radically have worked. So that's a better explanation than will. Actually, they picked bunch. Of other things on this draft happened to be like the most convenient item for them to pick up at the time. It can be a mixture it can be mixture. I think I think it's. This part of the part of the fun of it for me with that early stuff was kind of, you know, some of it's real some bit isn't. And what was the background is hypnosis suggestion all that stuff? That's real in whatever real means. But that's real. It's not my people sort of playing along as what it is. And then and then the magic side the country countryside tricks decide what you're going for an effect, and you know, you'll going for the an illusion. So everything was sort of sitting somewhere in both of those worlds nothing. I think sort of what made it thumb. Yeah. Yeah. I like the idea of that is it perception without a where's that from that ship? He w is there something that we can do should we even think about this? Is there something that we can do to counteract that because it seems a little dangerous if we're so easily influenced by these things should we strive to maybe pay attention to that. Because not everybody's doing it. And then goes see now your life is really happy. Now, you value your family more because of this fake zombie apocalypse. There's going to be plenty of other people that go now, we're doing this horrible thing as a country because we were all convinced that it's the Jews or like now, we're doing this horrible thing to this. Because it makes us all money. Forget it. It's scary to think that we're so easily influenced and we don't understand it. Yeah. And we're not able to counteract it. Yeah. Are there is there kind of like a self defense for this? I think there's no obvious self defense. I think a lot of those things happen sort of environmentally those kind of influences and things that are going on that we don't realize a influencing. Have the power Nells within us, psychologically? We eat called Yong said that the greatest bird and the child has to bear is the lift life of its paradise. Right. So you worry about with my kid parents. They're going to have every welcome. I've got a lot of insecurities get again. No book. Yeah. That's just starting point. And then you you from an early age we develop these templates what relationship should be what love is what who we are in relation to this world. You know, we get essentially the message you'll you'll smoke them week in the world is big and strong. And and this is all kind of priming, isn't it? It's the same thing that happens environmentally. And then you you grow up and all of that feeds into. Relationships. Most. Obviously what you demand from your partner. What you project onto them the things that you try and hide from yourself. And those things always come back and bite you in some way, your things you be overcompensate full become addicted to, you know, this is it's happening all the time within us in the best. We can do is try and be more conscious of those things that are essentially unconscious because there's any they only own you, and they're unconscious and the moment you have sums of conscious appreciation, and then they lose some of that power. It's the best that we can do. We can only do that within ourselves that we can only work on cells and do the best we can. So I think there's a parallel there. I think it's just. And you can never entirely that union Paul of individuation as he called. It could never you never quite get to the end. When you've become the self that you'll really truly supposed to be outside of all these influences you it's only a journey. And I think that's the best we can hope for in that parallel example of what's going on environmentally. If we have all these influences around us, and we have hypnosis that is not fake, right? It's it's realistic. And we're creating compliance and people at what point do we decide that humans in our level of free will as maybe a lot more limited than like, do you believe in free will it's sort of more philosophical concept. I think, but I okay, I think in life what we big part of growing up is realizing that things in life are embitterment, and they are ambiguous and their complex, and they're messy, and they're active things. Like happiness, we reduced to nouns and the. When we do that. They suddenly become neat things that we can put into box and the not happiness is really, it's it's an activist a messy thing. And likewise, we love and hate things at the same time. We things are right and wrong and hot as it is to accept left. And right. A both doing a valid and important thing the ROY right wing world is protecting the group on the left wing world is protecting the individual. And we do actually need both of those things in some form or another so lives complex, and I'm big use. And I think where simple, yes. And knows and simple writing wrongs exists than the point is those both of those things need to this so miles the free will things I think both. I think I'm very happy to let both sit. I think in some ways. Of course, you can argue that everything is caused by the previous things that makes no sense to talk about free will. But then the trouble with that is that it's almost too easy. Okay. Then makes no sense to about free will. So then why bother? Doing anything trying to change anything about yourself or trying to gain any Mostra or anything least of all yourself. So I think that it also makes sense to talk about it as if it Israel, and I think they just two models from the sound sounding the same thing. I didn't get I just don't think it quite makes any sense to go. Yes own. And then they just don't think it's useful. I don't think it's a reflection of how we have how we live the dangerous to that approach. You just end up agreeing with everything. But I think I think it's. Reflects more the reality. Is there a way to use some of these some of the mental ISM for either personal growth, or I think self defense was one of the uses in in the highest. There was the guy gets caught shoplifting. Yes. This happened to me all around my house is not four foot. Hi, guys. Like, whatever. There was. Okay. That's a good example that this actually happened to me in real life. I wasn't shoplifting. But I was sure you weren't. Borrowing it just boring. I was walking from one hotel to another quite late at night. It was I was at a magic convention in Wales. I was wearing a three piece of Elvis, suits. Because why not this one on? And I I mean short of having punched me home in the throat tattooed across my face. I look clearly looking to be fooled. And. So this guy is you know, he's really drunk and his plenty yet looking for fight, and he is with his girlfriend at his all adrenalin of up here. And he starts shouting at me and says something like. What are you looking at? What's your problem with something? So I again, my my only toolkit is just the other person's experience. It's really all I can work with. So I said to him because in that situation, you can't respond with all I'm not looking anything because you're on the back foot and they've got power or. Yeah. I'm looking at you. What's your problem? Because either way you're gonna get hit. Probably right. You're you're thirty three not that dynamic. They've set up was you can't just not play that game right from the outset. So I said the wall outside my house isn't foot high. So by this phrase came from it was I said it on that time. So it makes sense. It's a state. It makes no sense within that context. So he now feels he's miss something. So now, he's on the back foot. So he's reaction to that is a bit of a pause as I want. And I said, oh, the walnuts hopping houses isn't full for high. When I lived in Spain the wolves they're quite high here that tiny in the nothing. So so he then I think there's a martial arts technique, which is an adrenaline dump a similar thing. I think what you before you strike. You have somebody you make somebody relax you pay sent you take them off guard. So this team all his adrenaline just kind of dumped I was hoping to just basically confuse him. Right. And then stick his feet to the floor. Do something more overtly hypnotic because that confusion state his various adjustable, but what actually happened was he just went off and started crying his girlfriend won't off. And he sat down by the side of the road. I sat down next to him and started asking me about what are going wrong that night. I think he's Guilford bottle. Somebody. Some fight and witty that I'm giving giving him advice. But it was it only happen because I've been talking about what to do in those sort of situations at Cuban things I'd been doing off to hypnosis shows. And I sort of the any reason why it was in my head and ready to go to to play it like that was because I'd sort of spoken about it, theoretically. But so the idea is have you can be a song lyric. It can be. It's just not playing that game that the other person is setting up and making them feel they've missed something. And then the dynamics completely changed immediately. If they're running with a knife, right? There's not much room for this thing. But you know, it's like if you want to train and you want to keep the seat next to you free. Don't put your bag there because everybody else does. So they know what you're doing. And they're gonna get annoyed the seat Nolan smarter. People say well, but no one's no one's going to want to sit here. Just unbuttoned. Yeah. I'm ready have a seat. So. Yeah. So that was that ended up being my sort of self defense technique was have a song lyric or something or I was talking to friend of mine about this thing. And he he's an artist needs to walk home from his studio late at night through rough bit of London and the rule ways these kind of gangs on one side of the road. So he'd always crossover away from them. And then of course, they'd always see that always is horrible uncomfortable intimidating thing. So we spoke about it. And then the next night he crossed over the road to them and said good evening as he will pass them because the left him alone because he just seemed strange here. He's crazy just it's just weird him. Good evening. So yeah. Who wants to see a magic trick? No, thanks, man. Get away from us. What do your parents think about your career? I'm imagining they're watching your show, and they're like the audience is doing an I and they're like, oh, you think that's a surprise. Our son of the religious Christian depends. He's. Yeah. Is he's a gay atheist. Now you want a surprise. Game play on claiming gay Theus trademark that they seem. They seem proud and happy. My neither parent went to university or anything like that. So I think when I came home and went I'm not going to be a actually had this conversation. I'm not going to be an international lawyer sums doing Lauren German. I'm going to be a magician. My mom said, oh, great sounds oddly. I thought she was so okay with it that I thought maybe I need to rethink that. Maybe that's a bit of a rash decision. What ball? But. Yeah. It'll Italy time persuasion comes from right? Like, oh, yeah. That's a good idea. Would you tell them when you said he was going to become a magician? I told him as a great idea. He's never going to do it. Yeah. Yeah. But I as it turned out the two. Yeah. That's that was there was a very relaxed approach. I wrote the Mineta in my first year university because I was with all these nor students that were feeling terribly won't going to pass their exams not for themselves their parents might think and I've never experienced that so written, but that's just saying thank you so much. I realize that. You just let me do what made me happy which I just presumed everybody did. And I see now that isn't that isn't the case. So he'll have kids at some point. Is that in the cards for you? Oh, I don't know. We've been talking about that. I've I've so I'm forty seven at night on famous very court between that Nietzsche's spoke about become who you are. So there's that what I think is a vertical sense of like, this is my life, and I need to be doing that. And everything else needs to clear out the way, and it's so quite selfish. But there's that. Edge, which doesn't sit well with taking on other responsibilities. I come to dogs, and that's kind of enough of a of an affront to that. And then the other edge, which is sort of leveling vertical. Eligible maybe that sense of self becoming who you are is already in the relationships that you have and these things that maybe that's who I am. I I'm of an age rhyme, which I think is partly what middle ages about that. When you kind of get a bit caught between that you re gas Eureka has to step down. That's the again union terms, you've slain the dragon in the first half of your life. And now you have to rescue the Princess you have to second off of life. I think is about serving something else finding the thing that's bigger than you and finding meaning in that. I think it's quite which kids naturally will sort of do. I just haven't quite made my piece fully with that idea. So I'm I at the moment. But, but it's it's a discussion. But I'm still so many things I just do and demo- my time that I don't know. And you've got all this whiskey out a lot of whiskey to drink as well, which isn't isn't compatible having children not necessarily now. Although the reason why the, hey, by the way, how did she don't drink that much otherwise they would be be that going just before Osman self office and alcohol, right? Yeah. Yeah. You might have to that would be a different. There's a whole lot of whiskey in here. People can't see it. But we'll maybe we'll do some b rolls Cowboys. Yeah. Well, thank you for using your platform as well to help people. Because a lot of TV is I mean to say, the least it doesn't help humanity and you see things like apocalypse. The push sacrifice. These people's lives are changed. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Well, that's those those are the w the things on Ammon. We'll be proud of you know, television is a fairly. Fatuous occupation. But if you occasionally. You know, when something happens in the real world that's helped that person is genuine is is a is a nice thing. I don't do. These shows so often that people are just being churned out some kind of conveyor belt of some sort of makeup do one of these things year. So it's the all these people have become friends. You know, I've stayed in touch with them. And and part of me wants to make sure that the the work of the show continues that they do actually the isn't just to show that they did. And they felt great forbidden and they went back to where they were. So that's important to me as well. So. Thank you. What are you designing now Broadway show? You said was a show that you've done before. Are you are you constantly designing new things or thinking of new allusions or new tricks that you can put in somewhere? Okay. So where am I now? So I'm hoping for Broadway show in the spring. So just waiting to hear on a theater for that. So it could suddenly happen might be out there in like April or not might be late in the air on owners to. I'm starting a new book. My head wrote a new book. So I read this book on happiness great, which he it'll be linked to the show. Thank you. That's available in America. Now, which is quite a new thing. And it's a lot of it's about stoicism and an approach to happen. This is very different from the sort of normal self help book approach something to get my head on a second book around those questions, if you know what it is to flourish. And and. Be human really. And and then I'm I guess they'll be another TV thing at the moment. There are three shows on Netflix. There's the push which is the guy getting pissed off the building story miracle, which is the state show where to the faith healing and sacrifices is the new one. So we worked on on on a fourth that is a real projects for this year. And then maybe even looking at sort of Europe, there's some other sort of countries that seem to they've had my TV shows for I've never gone over there and perform that'll be fun. So yeah, there's lots of some things to explore Broadway. Is that we I enjoy yourself so much. They'll be that hasn't happened yet. It seems so I've gone to some Broadway shows that are nowhere near as interesting as watching something that you do live. But I've also been really surprised at how long it's taken us to go. Hey, this Darren Brown guy, kind of knows what he's doing. 'cause I used to find these things on YouTube ten years ago, or whenever maybe not even YouTube, maybe some other video say ten years ago. I was. Was like this is amazing. How was this not more popular in sharing these things? And then I'd say have you heard of you've heard of Darren Brown, right and people go, oh, I don't know. And I'm like the guy in the net flicks. And then of course, now, I show people and they're like, whoa. This is incredible. I'm thinking like how long is it going to take for people to get it? Like what what is what is going on here? What we sort of held the shows back a bit from the state. So they sold them into around Europe. But we held back from the states because it meant that we could kind of do that properly at some point and in a more kind of concerted effort make it all happen part of a plan at some point. I have no I never have any ambition oil anything with these things tool. So I leave that to the grownups that sort of you know, plan my career that I just I just like to do what's enjoyable feels with want at the time. But, but that's why we actually held it back in the last few years, we've sort of gone, right, but some southern some stuff. So that's why it's slowly now being exciting. That's exciting because you're essentially a house. Sold name in the UK. Well, I don't know. But yeah. So no one knows me in the states. And gin and now a lot of other people as well. So I guess thank you very much. Love is a me. Thank you so much having me own. Thank you. Thanks, jen. So case in this episode did not disappoint zoom. Oh, absolutely. Not I've listened to it twice so far. But that's also my job. But it was still it was one of those pleasures that I get to go to work in the morning, and listen to you talk to Darren and hear about the behind the scenes of how he makes these amazing shows, and it's fascinating, it's utterly fascinating. He's just one of the most brilliant entertainers slash magicians alive. And it was just awesome to be in his house with all of the atmosphere of his house and his secret passageways and his two headed six legged animals and stuff like that in the house. It's just absolutely incredible. And his art is up all over the place. You gotta check out there and Brown stuff. We're going to link to a bunch of videos in the show notes if you have net, which I assume you do search Darren Brown D E R E N and watch the push watch sacrifice. You will just be blown away in. Also, he's an amazing author. I read his book happy I've read it twice so far. So I highly. Recommend checking that out that'll be linked in the show notes as well. It is a great treatise on stoicism, and what it takes to be happy. And you know, how to deal with the thought of death in a deep book. It's an extraordinarily deep book that I did not expect when I opened it up because title is happy on the front. So it was a really amazing book. And definitely check out his work on Instagram. I had no idea he was such an amazing photographer and painter as well. Yeah. The dudes good it pretty much everything. I assume he's you know, sucks at billiards ping pong or something like that. There's gotta be it's gotta be a balance somewhere. Right. I don't know. I don't know like not now, I'm not sure and he's a lovely lovely guy. I really enjoyed meeting him. He's just an amazing amazing person. And I'm looking forward to seeing everything that he does in the future and keeping in touch with them for a long time. And I'm very excited for his Broadway show coming up, we'll let you guys know about that maybe going to bring a group to New York once that opens up 'cause I just can't wait to see what that's all about as well. And if you want to know how I managed to book great people like Darren and create a network with people like down in it well systems, that's how you do at tiny habits a little bit seats. Jay. And I'm teaching you how to do this for free the level. One course is over at Jordan. Harbinger dot com slash level. One don't kick the can down the road don't lie to yourself and tell yourself you're going to do it later. You're not dig the well before you're thirsty. Jordan, harbinger dot com slash level one. Speaking of building relationships, tell me your number one takeaway here from Darren Brown. I'm at Jordan harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. This show is produced in association with podcast one. In this episode was co produced by Jason taking a bullet Filipo and Jen harbinger show notes by Robert Fogerty worksheets by Kayla bacon. And I'm your host Jordan, harbinger, the fee for the show is that you share it with friends when you find something useful with should be in every single episode, especially this one so please share the show with those you love, and even those you don't lots more coming up in two thousand nineteen. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show. So you can. Live. What you listen and we'll see next time. A lot of people ask me which podcasts I listen to and or recommend one that I listened to an often recommend it's called the one you feed and Eric Zimmer the host of the one you feed is here with me today. You recently did an episode about meditation called the mind as your teacher with Ralf de LA Rosa. You wanna tell us a little bit about that one? Yeah. He wrote a book called the monkey is the messenger. And most of us have heard of this idea that like this mind, that's always running is called kind of a monkey mind, and he's sort of talking about why that monkey is actually our teacher that monkey mind, and that that mind that just runs and runs and runs it drives us towards meditation. And then it also drives us away from meditation because we sit down to do it. And it doesn't work our mind just runs we think, oh, my mind's got to be quiet to meditate. But I found it so fascinating. Because he saying, you know, for those of us that meditation doesn't come easy to it might be even more important for us to do it than people. Who sit down and who's mind quiets, very quickly and easily greats. And if people want to find that they'll be a link to the show notes. And of course, you can always search for the one you feed it's the two headed wolf icon in any podcast app.