Jules Feiffer: Live at Politics and Prose
This is live at politics and prose a program from slate and politics, and prose bookstore in Washington DC featuring some of today's best writers and top thinkers, neighbor, lucky feature, jewels, Pfeiffer. Here. Just a few highlights from his long and Alestra career as a teenager he apprenticed under will Eisner. One of the most important cartoonist of the twentieth century and a guy helped pioneer quote, unquote, graphic novel. He put out decade amazing comic strips at the village voice and other locations he's written plays drawn self contained graphic novels, illustrated the phantom tollbooth and is credited as the script writer for Robert Altman's cult, classic Popeye. His new graphic novel is the ghost script. The finale of his trilogy that includes kill my mother and cousin Joseph. It's an unabashedly political dive into the world of the Hollywood blacklist. There's also arith- on newspaper strips and serials. He loved as a kid. Lazy gentlemen Joel's Pfeiffer. I moved very slowly to see. Get used to it. I'm gonna be ninety in January. So. I think I'm still beginning. It's lovely to be here. I love coming to the store. I love the audiences. I love the atmosphere. I don't just a general feeling of people who love books, who love ideas, who wanna talk who want to engage and. And it makes me happy that I keep getting invited back mcraven happy as I keep giving them a reason for being invited back. The reason today that brings us here. I started the graphic novel series that began with kill my mother. Truly because of age. I mean, did I found I had moved out of New York. I was living on logo living out in the Hamptons where I had been a chose the Hamptons because I had been teaching a writing class coal humor and truth out at Stony Brook Southampton university or college, not a university and and and made fringe there and like the people there and and it was congenial. And when I couldn't take the fact that New York was so uncongenial and that the places that I wanted to go, which I used to go to by walking and took me five or seven or eight minutes now took me forty five minutes, and sometimes I never made it that that all New York did was remind me of my mortality and tell me that I didn't have much time left. And when I moved out to the. The Hamptons? I could. It help me redefine my mortality so that I can make up how much time I had lived. They couldn't tell me anymore. And I found that I could. Kind of redefined time. But oil also I had to redefine work because I couldn't ride plays anymore that took place in New York. And also as the problem of age you're hearing goes, and it's just dumb to write a play. You can't year in rehearsal. You can't really help anybody out that way and and they look at you puzzled when you answer the question that nobody is so and there was a certain amount of doing that. So I I had to out in the Hamptons. I had to figure out what am I going to you wouldn't want going to right now? What am I gonna draw now, what shall I do now? And I started fiddling around. With noi. For no particular reason. I was conscious at the time I realized after that it was something that was kind of faded in terms of the world. We live in the world. I was living in the when I was a kid growing up in the Bronx during the great depression. I was born in nineteen twenty January nineteen. Twenty nine the depression, starting October nineteen. Twenty nine. I had very little into with that and by the way Popeye the great character Popeye by LG Christmas Sagar began. He Papa was born in nineteen seven and nine hundred twenty nine. We bought by our share birthday and and and we are what we are. But I the thing about the comics when I love them as a kid. They were the adventure strips like Terry and the pirates and the invention, and we'll ISAs spirit. There were these wonderful action stuff that they've, they made a whole new world for me as a little boy, four or five in the Bronx, joined the use of the great depression. And as I got older and started getting into my own work, I realize that my drawing style was antithetical to doom that kind work. That's not the work I knew how to draw. I couldn't handle the brush like those of the cartoonist. Who drew those strips? Did I couldn't handle the form and more tried? The more embarrassing it look like through the and so I had to abandon it and moved mourn and direction of humor, and which I also liked. But my real dream was he's adventure cartoons and which were moving out of commercials, usability anyway, so that all of that. It was you all dying off. But so for years I'm not yielded as as you know, I concentrated on kind of cartoons that made my reputation of delivers which were drawn very simply and very directly because the whole point of those drawers was a kind of sleight of hand to seduce the reader to go to impaneled one two panel to to the end where I hit them with the snowball, you know, and and we were, I tried to win the meteoroid degree of consciousness on social issues, political issues, relationships, whatever was whatever was on my mind and the 'cause it was always a country often, always a concern, contrarian view. And and something they did not often get. I had to bring them along gently. It's it's, it's a contact and and and I realized that if you if you rested up with fancy draw, your address it up with angles, shall she dress it up with shadows? And then the reader, you can't come. The just have a deceptive. Almost Thurber lex implicity to eat panel Lenny, hit him with paddle eight much. Oh my God. And and and and you've caught them and and given them perhaps a thought that you wanted to that they didn't have before way of looking at something. So for years I did that, but the drawing, well, it worked was essentially passive and was secondary to the con- of getting the reader to go from one to three full up six, seven to the pow when I got when I gave up the strip or just lost face in the efficacy of the strip because I didn't think after forty years I was doing any good at all except repeating myself. And I thought I was there were telling the reader as much as I was irritating, you retained by the politics of the time and that it was becoming a nag. So I thought it was better that I get out of that game. And that's when I moved into children's books, which, and I'm. Down here talking about a number of my children's books with great happiness and chill was booked up into the whole you world from me in the world of looking at drawing an illustration, and so that by the time I got to Nuala and thinking about that, it seemed to kind of natural evolvement going from the FIFA stripped to kids books out of theater, but the kids books had a different kind of drawing, Vic, different kind of reality into the world that took me back to known coniferous will Eisner, what was that thing that all of us of a certain age. Became addicted to. An addiction. It really was in the forties. It was based on the writings and the twenties thirties and forties with by most notably red is like Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler, and they were few others. But those were the two heavyweights and but the but what really gave them. They huge Vickers cloud was right after the war. All right. After World War Two Loa just toward the end of reward to these movies started coming out. John Houston did the Maltese falcon. The postman always reach twice a. Lenna Turner. John Garfield a whole series of movies and and the Robert mitchum Robert Ryan betrayal, movies at that that we had come out of World War Two more victorious in any country in the world less harmed who took less. We. Let's damage we took no internal damage. Nobody there was. There was no twin tower attacked in on the American soil of World War Two. We came out of it. In one place and suddenly overnight. There was the GI Bill and people who who, whose families are generation will work in class or you and living hardscrabble lives went to college on GI Bill, and they had families and they built homes. They moved into their own homes for the first time, and they had dishwashers and washing machines. And they had a cou- treatments and they had they have stuff they had car, and suddenly they had, we had a middle class in his country before any other country had a extensive class and more more dream. I mean, the American dream which had always been a dream seem to be come reality for so many people, and it seemed to be every reason in the world had become student and happy in the billiant and an and once so that the resort in result of s result of some of the culture that the mood Hollywood musicals against Jiamusi amuses in particular, and. A and some of the comedies and all that. But at the sun, suddenly these betrayal move the movies, started happening where GI's would come back. Robert mitchum would come back from the war and discover that is best friend. Robert Ryan had betrayed. Everybody had betrayed everybody else. Suddenly there was a team of people coming home, and there was a dark side and we did a dark side. So in that same time that people will being betrayed and things aren't turning out the way they were supposed to and you best friend stolen your best drill, and you being screwed all over the place. At the same time, they were creatures from other planets invading goes, and they were doing terrible things through plotting against us. And you wish fascinating. We're what gave us the need and the for this kind of paranoia this because they didn't seem to be only overt three. The only way the Russians could truly attack us because they had no delivery session. A system was to mail a bomb to us, but but. And so that that began to interest in fascinate me and why Noah and the great siege of Noi that happened for many years. And then finally went out of the why that had become such a big deal in our time and in our culture. And when I started thinking terms of a graphic novel series of graphic novels based on wa. I wanted to comment on the time I lived in on the time. I grew to maturity and in the world I lived in which kind in a in a way of explaining. Not just where we were today because I wasn't thinking in those terms, but just kind of explaining to myself how I had come to have the ideas I had over the years and what helped me grow them and how they related to the present time in the present place. I understood that if I had to try to do a graphic novel about the year, two thousand no two thousand ten or two, I wouldn't know where to begin because I don't know the music. I don't know the culture. I don't know the cars. I don't know the and I have no feeling for it. I have no affinity for it, but put me in nineteen twenty nine and I can go crazy. And so I started fooling around. Not knowing where I was going, but the need to go somewhere the need to find some work for myself in a little cottage, add Renton in Southampton with my dog and my cat and and fiddled around writing the story and wrote and rewrote, and and and and got set of characters and private eye and and threw things around in studying. You can't cut a kind of story idea when I finally wrote what I consider a script as a narrow. It was in the kind of form the screenplay where I had it all typed up and they would be. A description of the action. What one would see on the page as opposed to on the screen and what the dialogue would be. And I took it to my agent who said to a publisher and he loved it and I said, but we have to find an audience for it because I can't draw an style and he said, you crazy, you can't have a book by you. That's a graphic novel and not you haven't. You not drew it. I said, I don't know how to draw in that style and he said, go home and try. Well, I found out when I went home and tried that. Once I took a trip to an art store, I discovered that they had all sorts of new pens and rush pins that would the equivalent of the brushstrokes that I couldn't mass to when I was a kid. But these like it us like a pencil. And so I learned I started fooling around in and did some sample pages and like gave them three sample pages. They love the sample pages, and suddenly I was under contract to do this kill my mother, and I had no intention of being the orders on it, but now I was trapped into doing it. And that first book which I did out in Southampton was a God awful, but wonderful experience because a first of all on you that I was unqualified for this work and I knew that there was no way I could fake my way through this. And I of first of all, I went out and bought a sixty five inch television set and played back record. All the old classic movies from the period that I was covering in kill my mother and then had the pictures on the screen, a push, the pause button and had the the, the, the atmosphere that was in these movies directed by Houston and hawks, and it would Dimitri and another's use angle shots and all that that they don't pose Philomene st- as stills. And I drew off the screen swipe stuff and you got notes and did all of that. And so that I understood what the movies did in Deloitte, confidence, myself, my ability to do that in more and as I stole thanks, I got ideas on how to illustrate the book. I would do layouts I would do a page. I would finish the page. I think I got away with it. I'd go to bed with a nervous breakdown cut back the next day and start another day in another nervous breakdown. They would. The book was one hundred forty seven pages and hundred forty, seven nervous breakdown because I. Never ever believed that I was really qualified to do this. And until the book came out, I still didn't believe it. And the books were the reaction to the book may be almost believe it. But by this time with are believed it or not. I was in love. I was in love with the form. I knew this is how I wanted to spend the rest of my days just doing this kind of stuff because it took me back to the comic books of coniferous Eisner that I loved as a kid. It took me back to what I really wanted to do, but was unqualified to do when I was seven and eight and nine. And now I was doing my eighties, moving in on ninety s and I was bit finally becoming not that crappy satirical cartoon, strong overthrowing the government to what end I asked you toward no wind toward Donald Trump, and I was doing the kind of comics I wanted to do from the tunnel was a baby. So. Now with sadly with the ghost we have to still a can't do anymore Nawar because this is the end of that that trilogy. So about to embark on an idea for a doing a series of books of middle level readers still using the graphic novel form because that's the only way I wanna work from now. And and natural. I've got to say about all of the spotter my loves event. That's anybody have a question. Or more important as anybody have an answer. Mr.. Fife for thank you. Thank you very much for being here. One thing that I was wondering is is during your career, did you have the opportunity to me to me either Dr? Martin Luther King junior Senator, Robert Kennedy, I, I never met doctor king. I met Bobby Kennedy several times number of times out of one of those times. When he was running. I did a cartoon as gun the lead attention over the years in it's done as a children's book format and is called the Bobby twins. And it says these are the Bobby twins and is a kind of primitive drawing of little too little Bobby Kennedy's and as a scroll by a child, this is the good Bobby in does one Bobby and then look exactly like him. This is the bad bump and the and then I, I don't remember the cartoon after a legit, but it was basically the good Bobby is for civil rights. The bad Bobby appoints, racist judges down south. He was saying the sharing general at the time, the good Bobby does this. He was still the attorney general and saw has pointed to the the the difference between the image of one Bobby Kennedy. That they will that he was running on. As a potential presidential candidate he hadn't declared yet. I don't thing and the reality of of of being the attorney general and being involved in a lot of dirty business. And it ended with if you want, if you if you want one Bobby to be a precedent, you have to be you. You have to vote for both your in end up that way. So. On the basis of that. I think it was that I got invited by Bobby Kennedy for breakfast with him, and a friend of mine named Bill van and Hulu was on his campaign staff and one old fellow, and and another guy who is on his staff and Bobby was these two guys who immense in Bobby was sitting in the middle, Senator Kennedy and very demure, and we'd be talking and having a conversation, and then he'd. Why is crack to one of the guys? And this guy would say something. Kind of defending himself, and then he was cracked to the other and he would defend himself on. I realized that Bobby was kind of playing off one of his aides against the other to show me how would they would sing and dance for him. You know, in how we could get them hopping and it was a kind of from Queen Talla play. You know that that look look a little aboard an end. I was both amused in and and retained by this because it just. I didn't like that game and and didn't like that. He was doing it for my mom benefit, and I was very. Down on our supported until it turned out to be a terrible mistake, a gene McCarthy for president and and was against Kennedy, and and it took me years. To believe is I finally do now that Kennedy really could have made a change in really might have done something but join a time is love. I was not a fan. I mean not so great moments that he had done and very impressive things that I had done, but I still some shabby things he had done to and the shabby things during his lifetime. Took prevalence over. The things I liked about him. I had friends linked, David Halberstam check newfield who crazy about him, but I was never on that team. I only give long answers to questions. Listen, thank you for asking that. Anybody else want ask anything and I'll go on filibuster. They the thing about. Me and politics over the years was. And even now, I mean this book the ghost gripped. Essentially goes back to how I got into politics in the first place. Let me talk about that from a few minutes that the thing that made me I political blow was my family got assist who was a member of the communist party. Am I wrote a play about her cold bent friend. And and she had all these attractive young men from high school come to the house and they would talk politics and they would talk back and forth and they were. They were very funny guys and they they, and and some of the reds on some of them would just lefties. But they had an attitude in the wiseguy attitude to to their soul style that basically informed my youth in pulling forms my adult years. I kind of stole it from them. But. But what what happened with. In in the forties when I was still in high school was the list in Hollywood and now why the blacklist became so important to me and why became such a personal thing to me, I never understood because that nothing at all to do with me. I know initiative to ever write movies. I had no emission to be a writer. I, my older sister, the communist was going to be the writer in the family. She had announced that and nobody ever dared argue with us Nolan est and. And and I was the cartoonist and but when these Hollywood writers. Got thrown in jail because they had the room politics and some of them though Dow were communist. Maybe all of them were communist, but that they got they, they, they had the means of taking a living away from them. I thought that was impossible and I could not believe that anybody could defend that. And as I said, I don't know why that meant so much the emotionally because like dental fide, no way. Would that professionally. Except I like some of the movies and some of them I thought were just terrible. But the blacklist always stayed in my mind. And when I when I was in the army nineteen, fifties, I got out nineteen fifty three. The first one first things I did am I right this in the introduction to the book, the ghost gripped was to go to see Jerome Robins testify before the house un-american activities committee in Foley square. And he had the king and I on at the time on Broadway. And first of all, I sat there was horrified at just the below level and not so below level, constant humiliation Robbins who's there to be contrite there to make amends there to be allowed to name names so that you could shoot the movie of the west side story because that was all about to get a job in a movie. That's why you sell out your friends and an that. What he had to. Decided that he had to do and what the committee did stole through this round of first of the, they asked him what he did. He's a director and a choreographer, a dance director, Nucor and that. And but at that point, the word choreographer was not part of the lexicon was not common. And so each of these committee members whose words Bing being Bahrain, DO and TV to the mid west in south west, where their homes were. For their home. Interests. They had to show. That this New York Jew theory word choreography was up to me to them. So they went around each one of them you I curry era, and then the next guy coury what and they had to show that they could not say her so that they could not they would. They would not be complicit in Robbins, guilt and having done all of that. They then just beat him up over and on. Finally, at the end of it were named the named on everything that they had agreed upon beforehand, the chairman of the communities. Mr. Lavigne's just want us. Thank you for your patriotic testimony. Just wanted to say that my wife and I are going to see the king and night tonight and because of you patriotic testimony tonight here today. I know we're gonna. Enjoy your choreography nut. Much more Robbins looked down said, thank you, Mr Chairman and I thought. This is impossible and it it. It's. It was this ritual of humiliation that anybody who lives live old enough now to live through the have lived through that period, remember very well and happening over and over and over again. And it was that that I wanted to read about and comment about and talk about, and it's a very American part of what we do and have done the pass. We did it in the nineteen twenties. A and before that with Atticus we didn't Chicago with, oh, after after the Haymarket riot, we've in the the, the boys, we've always gone into these periods of of actions that prompted you. Whether Anna kissed explosions or assassinations of whatever the prompted wide-scale reprisal and deportation and imprisoning and just Nash and and what we are obviously going through the whole thing today. But when I. Wrote this book and most of the time I was illustrating it was before the current. Well, before any any of the current immigration stuff is happening at all. It just the just predictable that it's America was always done this. We always have done it. We will always will do it because one thing the merit we seem to hate is as much a more than any other country is learning. Any lessons, MMA history. We dismiss history and have to do it always over again in over again and over again until we're doing. So that time that we're living through now is the time that I lived through in the nineteen fifties. And that would went and was repeated with Saccone Vince Eddie in the nineteen thirties or twenties rather and and before that in a nearly nineteen hundred, we just do it. It's what we do. Is there another question I wonder if you had any comment about the demise of the village voice. No. It's as far as I was concerned voice, stopping the voice, many years ago. It was in its time to most of the live inventive, interesting wacky in wacked out paper you can imagine. And it was wonderful forum for me to work in and wonderful me to read the rut. The writers who I was a great fan of and and and a mental lot in the culture. But what the the voice didn't die of the newspaper dot many years before it officially, but the rudders in the voice moved on with their sensibility, and you later saw them in the pages of Jim bellows Herald Tribune in nineteen fifties, and sixties, and and and later on to that in the pages of the New York. I mean, the style of writing New York Times his has as long ago and in Washington pose long ago in effect. ID by voice style and and what was best in an and more interesting about the voices it was back then has been picked up so much newspapers across this country. It's been a huge influence, a huge unstated influence. So the voice of has hasn't had at on living in Feqi us in the in the prevailing culture and more and more power to it. So I don't want it. Now the question I got two questions actually one. I'm I'm wondering if you came to any conclusions or elaborate thoughts about what was it that was bothering people and after the World War Two, and I ask you this because I remember quite what to what, what, what about what you said? Why we're why would people so unhappy in the period sort of late fifties, I guess early sixties maybe and I asked you that because my mom year, I remember her asking that very question early, nine hundred for self. Good. Got your tongue. It's a wonderful question. As I say, that's the question that haunted me and and stirs a work, but I guess that through all of that, do you. Do you. We will coming. We have lived through. So much about laws prewar and a great depression, you know obsessed everybody, but so much of it was based on an American mythology, the American dream. Everybody gets an opportunity. We've Nord completely our racism then was that that with all of the advances of the new deal, none of them involve civil rights. Because if it tried to evolve civil rights, they would have been no coalition into south you under south was all democratic. And the only way you got laws passed was to look to keep support segregation and racism. And so there was no attempt. To deal with what is basically been the key American problem. The key American dilemma since slavery or since the creation and a, I recommend to you. If you haven't read them, the writings, the tar writings of tunnel, he she coats wretched great length and quite Brennan Lee about all of this and. So even when we seem to be addressing, I'll problems as we did join depression. There were so many other problems that were brushing under the rug, and we've always brushed under the rug will deal with that later. We'll deal with that later. We'll deal with that later and after the war, all the things that we didn't deal with started popping to the surface and you settle one and something else pops, and all of contradictions began popping. And it's those contradictions basically led to me in my work because I too was puzzled as anyone else was. And I too was a believer in the American dream in an an and I too had thoughts that we had to do was fixable hair and fix a little there. And in my too was subject to thing glowing up in my face just as I thought it was getting better as it does does very moment except it's all blown up in all of phase. Because how can you get along with the methology that has been lying about itself from day one. So there we are now, aren't you? Sorry, you ask that question. Did. Other questions? Yes. She says, the other question is, what in your, if your family, was there any inspiration from your family for you become take to pick your career? Oh, oh God. The question of family. I, I. Here's what my family had to do with it. Don't go away. Don't run away, stay up there and take this. Take your medicine that my high school, James Monroe in the Bronx. Had for years when I went there and we belong before I went there, they had a ceremony over years with a honored three full McGrath. Jewett s-. And the elevated him genital highschool hall of fame and these three graduates would get up at a mass assembly of the school students every year and explain why they were important and give and give benefit of their wisdom to all of us. And we would sit there writhing in pain as these three people. Nobody ever heard of. Most of whom hadn't been indicted yet. But then he would be. In the public sphere on the private sphere. Told us very Somboon very seriously how we have to stick to the rules of the o- teaches do this and and I kept sitting there listening and looking at them and looking for some sun that they had never been a kid that the head ever thought. You know what there was no son that there was any youth ever in any of them. And I also thought a fantasize at a time someday. I will be up there and I will tell the truth, and then the day came. And on that day, my parents were in New Orleans and my two sisters. And I said, the secret of my success is that. I always listen to the advice of my mother and my mother gave me advice over the years to do this and do that. And I would follow that advice. And I'd fail and g something else would come up and should give me investment follow that advice and I'd fail. And then when they're Kurds to me. That maybe I should try something else. So I listened to advise. I did the exact opposite and I became famous. So I have so having never stopped listening to to doing exactly the opposite of everything. My mother suggested as what, what I'm what I'm doing up here today and lean tire student body got up and applauded and cheered him scream. The teacher sat there, grim stony-faced. The principal was looking grim. My parents were applauding, my mother was applauding because look how nicely, our two boy boy. And, but that's. That's what I learned from my mother. How she was wrong about everything even when she tried to be good. Did you draw any inspiration from any real life movie stars or filmmakers of the in in in in in the ghost gripped, there's an actress. There's a has been over the hill. Stalled named Lola burns. Lola burns was gene. Hollows naming the movie goal. Reckless. There are always little through a. Great. Noreen isn't fun was had by me dropping clues all through all three books that just had to do with my own private obsessions here, and there's an may or may not mean anything, but there are a number of things like that in in in in the books I can think of a couple. I can't think of anything right now. As soon as I get off, I'll think of three or four more, but there will. There will love in this current book. I have Mike have one of my characters talk about reading the spirit when he was a kid. And that was a lot of fun it about the weed that to you because I e the spurt meant so much to me an Eisner and his workmen so much to me that I thought it was my way of paying him back. Let's see. My hero Archie Goldman is a property -tective and a loser property take him, and he always gets beat up. He can never wanna fight. And here he is after a series of assaults where she is sitting that ruminating and like the, you know, and like a drunken and wall film. He's sitting there, you know, thinking about life and he says, I used to read the Sunday comics about this mass crimefighter dispirit who almost every week got into fights where he got the crap pounded out of him, terrible beatings until at the very last minute with his less shred of strings he'd win the fight and I'd read the spirit Nightline was it worth it? I've never been any good at fighting, but out of nowhere, I punch out a hopeless drunk because my mother got strangled and the Guna strangled him who's thirty years older than me. He beats me up until he drops out of a heart attack. So did I win that one? Do I know the difference between losing and winning any live your life without knowing the difference? Is that something important to know? So I take. Something since you're that. That was a staple. In every spirit, rita's memory of hell, what punishment, physical punishment, the spirit and George aim, you know, he, he got beaten up in wolf fudge sundae one until he finally win with a lucky punters then and and was able to use it in my e in my hand, salute to him because as I was doing this last book. The importance of is in my work. The importance of is no in the bend of micro the tilt of my career. How I ended up where I have ended up is is is totally connected to him and couldn't have happened without him looking over my shoulder and and and so the book was in unintentionally, but more and more of a salute to he who, and so meant you meant so much to me to my childhood and more importantly in my later life like up to the minute right now. We took a few more questions before I collapsed. And I remember a young child the first time, my dad was yelling at the TV during the McCarthy hearings. And then of course, the famous expression have you no decency. I mean, when are we going to have. That be the turn of events in this country? Well, I think. My prediction, you know, I've said a log lifetime in his game, and I've yet to be right about anything, but. Nonetheless generalists mon- prediction is Donald Trump will be history in about three months. Yep. Not because of what the American people do, but what what the courts will do. Yeah, we got too much on them. He knows it, and but that's the only that's the only beginning of this. What we got is the most corrupt congress we have ever had and the most consciousness congress. We've got a Republican party that should be taken out much two way and the cynicism that today's our entire system from top to bottom. Makes Trump seem almost innocent because he the schmuck is just trying to steal money. He doesn't. But, but but they they're through the, they're, they're the aligned down for him because they can name some federal judges and golden to undoing them that things. They're the real criminals and all of this, and that's what has to be, but we have a younger generation coming up, seemed to know that. So you don't lose hope. Would you like to say a word about the three people that you've dedicated the book to? Oh, let's love OG. Did the the book is dedicated to, and I've been wanting to do this for a long time to I f stone less you most of, you know. To Murray Kempton who. LSU many of, you know, because and and when when when you years ago, I used to say that my mocks in Kempton where I have sown, Maury, Kim, I'm on my Marx. Lenin will have still Murray Kempton. They taught me more about how does thank in. How does think politically than anybody else on you? And the third name was Leonard boo dean, the great constitutional lawyer who is also a friend of mine who wasn't extraordinary man, a sweet lovable fellow who through wonderful parties at his house at twelve and a half had Saint Luke's place in New York where he just moved from group to group agitating everybody and trying to start fights with everyone would you know, but all good humored. But he was always contrary. And who got killed by his daughter, whom was responsible for early death by because her father just didn't think was radical enough. So she decided to take part in a row robbery and and and drive the car that killed a cop and he in her brain down his entire house just gave up on life and and she Jordan did. I'm convinced. And that's the crime here. That's so that's what that's what the dedications about. Yeah. As you go older, have you develop a dance to September or a dance to autumn or winter. It's what, what do you want? How has it changed you involved in in the sense of the dance as you've loan with more mature. No. Last. I'm tired. So I don't remember exactly what month I, I think it was less full. No, April last April in Northampton. Massachusetts is wonderful art gallery, the rich Michelson gallery, and he gave me the huge show. Ah, last April, and it's got one hundred dancers in it. And in the world knew they were done over the past year and a half or so, and and a lot of nail damages lover, finish stairs a lot of black dances. A lot of fact answers, skinny, dances, women dances. A lot of my modern dancers, I'd read I, we drew entirely my dance spring and shepherd panels that will much bigger, and I had a lot of fun with all of it, and it was a terrific exhibition and go on up there. You can see it now. So you don't that that over. Stare in. Modern dancer came into being because when I got my first apartment in New York, when I was doing stuff for the village voice, the first woman young woman to come home and sleep with me was a modern denture. Her name was Julie Judy, Goldstone, and who later became Junius done a very influential dancer down at in a village. And so you don't forget that she was very proud of that. That she was. She was the dance. She was original dancing and a began as an alternate doing British the're dancers in drawings and strips, occasional strips because bore than anyone else single figure what a stair represented to me in how he worked was how I wanted to work. Will you never show the effort? We never show how hard you're working, how you you worked very hard to make it look easy to make it look effortless to make it look as to me what I'm not doing anything. The difference between Gene Kelly who was a great dancer was that he was always showing off and he wanted you to see how hard he was working and he wanted the applause and you get the feeling of stay was always embarrassed by the employees just wanted to do. He was doing it because that's what he did. And that's what the. Work means to me, I do it because it's what I do and what I loved doing, and I do it a go on doing it because there's nothing else I know how care to know how to do. And on that note, I will. Thank you all. Live at politics and prose is a co production of the bookstore and sleek dot com. For information about upcoming politics and prose events, visit politics, dash pros dot com, and please let us know what you think of this program. Our Email is podcasts at slate dot com.