77: The Use (and Abuse) of Wine Scores with Vino Mike and Pete on That Wine Pod
Compared to a physical course the online way of delivering a wine course is infinitely better. You can do it from your home for those of us who are kind of concerned about going outside our home right now. The other is convenience. You don't have to hire a babysitter. If you've got kids and other one is like two for one benefit. I have a lot of husband wives or mother daughter Father Son all kinds of iterations taking it together. But you only pay the one course fee and also if you miss a tasting. Even when I'm doing them live I'm recording them. All see can always go back to the video and do it yourself whereas if you miss a live course that's it you missed it. Some of my core students even will take one of my videos and stream it to their ipad or to their TV. Invite friends over and have a guided tasting whether watching me and they'll stop and start the video and talk amongst themselves and make notes and then keep going. Do you have a thirst to learn about wine? D Love Stories about wonderfully obsessive people ponting Lee beautiful places and Amusingly Awkward Social Situations. Oh that's the blend here on the unreserved wind. Talk podcast I'm your host Natalie Maclean. And each week. I share with you. Unfiltered conversations with celebrities in the world as well as confessions from my own tipsy journey as I write my third book on this subject. I'm so glad you're here now past that bottle please. And let's get started. Welcome to episode seventy seven. We're turning the table on this episode as I'm the one who interviewed by Pete D'Amico and Michael Montante who chatted with me on their fun and irreverent. Podcast called that wine pod we cover a lot of ground from the problems and abuses of wine scores to the wine writing life and why learning about wine via online classes has a number of advantages over physical courses. Pete has been in the wine industry for more than fifteen years as a wine retail store manager and strategic consultant in the thriving Chicago Food and beverage industry. He has three. Kids is a long distance runner and coach and hosts three other podcasts including the FATMAN CHRONICLES. The no fear project and be better today. Michael Aka Vino. Mike has more than twenty years experience as a fine dining manager and wine retail store manager also in Chicago he passed the Court of Master Sommeliers. Very challenging advanced SOMMELIER exam in two thousand nine. He's the father of one son. Plays the trumpet trombone and euphonium. I also just wanted to let you know that on instagram. I recently posted some of my favorite vk wines. Try Right now along with some delicious food. Pairings come on over and connect with me on instagram at Natalie Maclean wine. I'll also include a link to my instant account in the show notes at Natalie Maclean. Dot Com forward slash. Seventy seven. Okay on with the show. We have a burgundy lover to bring on the show today. Yeah I think you gotTa tell people although about your social media prowess and action. That was made. It's kind of a funny story right so we did that. Natty show not too long ago and I decided posting it on facebook. I made a little joke like all right. We're episode whatever can't remember the number but this is that natty show and I said no not Natalie Maclean and Kinda tagged her tagger not Natalie Maclean but natural wine because the natural wine takes on this nickname natty and it was just kind of a fun joke and to my delight she reached out she emailed us and she said Hey. I really lovely guys doing on that wine pod and maybe we can collab-. I'd love to maybe be a guest on the show in in a heartbeat. I was like yes absolutely. Let's do this so we picked a date and that date is today. So we're GONNA have Natalie MacLean join us mclane. I think it's McLean. Ike Lane reminds me a die. Hard fist with your toes. spray but we're honored to bring on the show today and this is our. Twip going International. She's joining us from her home in Ottawa Canada. All right our guest was named the world's best drinks writer at the World Food Media Awards that in way more than we've done like right there and it has won four James Beard Foundation Journalism Awards. Natalie Maclean is also the only person of won both the M. F. K. Fisher distinguished writing award from the James Beard Foundation and the MFA Fisher Award for Excellence in Culinary writing from now. We're going to get tough here. Let's see how I do the DOM discography International Natalie's first book Red White and drunk all over a weinstock journey from grapes to glass such fun. Booker and her second book. Unquenchable tipsy quest for the world's best bargain wines were both selected as one of Amazon's best books of the year. She teaches wildly popular. Courses at NEDAL MCLEAN DOT COM and. She joins us now from her home in Ottawa Ontario. Natalie welcome to that wine side. It's great to be here with you both Mike Peter. Enjoying listening to your podcast. Oh well thank you very much. We are thrilled to have you on. And this is our first that wine pod international episode so crossing borders. How's the weather up there today as we come into spring? Are You thown out we are? It's a slow thaw here in Ottawa. Where one of the coldest cities on the planet but it's sunny and things are melting so it's heading the right direction. Wonderful beautiful all right while we have a lot to talk about so I wanted to get started with just a couple of kind of warm up questions. Just some fun stuff here to loosen up. Get the conversation going. Start things flowing a little bit organically and then we can get into some of the topics that revolve around what you do. Which is you're a great writer about line. You do scoring as well and we can talk about how those two things tied together. But I I'M GONNA fire a few questions at you. Just go with your gut on okay. So he retired ready. I'm ready right burgundy or Bordeaux Burgundy. Don't have to think about that one right all love love Pinot Noir. All the way you know I will not refuse a great glass of Bordeaux that's purchased for me good answer. I imagine that goes with most regions and varietals. If it's purchased for you that's what I say when someone asks me. What is my favorite wine? It's always the ones somebody else buys. Sure while in red widen drunk all over I'm just so drawn in when you're talking about your experience at DRC is incredible to listen to that story. I just I had asked that question just to see if that's still the case today. It obviously is so so. We'll move on organic or biodynamic biodynamic. If I can get it for sure because to me. It's a spectrum of continuing spectrum paying closer and closer attention to the yards and so as we move to organic. Biodynamic challenges are greater for the winemaker. But the CARE is also greater. Doesn't guarantee you a better bottle but I think it guarantees you that the winemaker had to pay closer attention to his fines or her minds right indeed cork or screw cap. Screw cap please. I don't think wine should have to have a special implement to open it. That said if you hand the a bottle of Burgundy was a court I will not create a fuss all right. And lastly one hundred point scale or twenty point scale one hundred point scale though that has many nuances. But I think it's the most relatable for most consumers at least in North America because we all grew up with it test scores out of a hundred and sell on but not sell layers to that one. Does it translate just like that? In your opinion that ninety s the equivalent of an a minus eighty nine is a B. Plus. Or how do you think about the value of these numbers? Well I think they're of service to readers but I don't think they're an exact translation of what we remember from school. I personally have never seen any wines rated lower than about eighty with the exception of Olympic. Okay the Bloomberg columnist whom I interviewed on my podcast and she actually gave a wind zero and published it so Kudos to her. She's really making a statement. But generally I find that the scores started about eighty or eighty five. Even now they say ninety. Five is the new nineties so we really have to take it all in context. Who's giving that score? And what do they mean by it? Sure and you give scores yourself. So why don't we talk a little bit about like when you started your career as a wine writer and was that at the same exact time as reviewing wines and giving scores to them or did that come along a little bit later. I came along later so I started writing about why almost twenty years ago holy smokes. Anyway my liver for the people but The first five years they not by the way we were been. Thank you nice little bubbly over here to Celebrate the show with you today. So let's lovely. Which again drinking. Oh this is a sparkling wine from Piedmont Italy. The producers called Del. Tayo these guys make champagne in Piedmont. Let's just say that like real deal stuff Chardonnay Pinot Noir. It's on the lease for almost four years. Actually great great stuff. Yeah del Taco terrific are making me thirsty. So you're doing your job so yeah for the first five years I did not score wines. I think it was a matter of confidence and understanding how I could be a best service. Frankly to my readers so I would have all these lovely tasting notes. No one wants to read the. Who's very few people I should say? WanNa read those. Most people want to buy like they buy toothpaste. Make a quick decision. Getting get out so a lot of them do the QPR the quality price ratio. So they'll look at your score. Which is the indicator quality to them and compare it to the price and they want to Max out. Can I get a ninety point wine under twenty dollars? Something like that so for the longest time. I held out thinking at first that you can't trap a subjective experience like wine into a number but over time I realized that it's just a snapshot of the wine and your personal opinion and it's subjective as all get out. I really don't think we can have objective wine reviews. We can have an unbiased. Why reviews objectivity? I don't think it's possible as a human being. You're going to be influenced by all of your experience. All of the wine you've ever tasted the AROMAS and flavors that are in your mind that all goes in there. I think as long as people understand that they can be useful to readers. I agree with all of that and the subjectivity. Of course what you said the word you used you said snapshot that's always what I kind of think about what? These wine reviews tasting wine at one moment. In time it's usually not revisited. It almost like the review has a little bit of an expiration date on it. It does it does. It's like looking at a company's balance sheet. That'll give you one moment in time. The health of that company are you know how it's doing but the transactions happen every day and wine they say is a living thing but it is changing in the bottle and we are changing as people and where we experienced. That wind will change from time to time depending on who were with or what we're eating so. I think that that all has to be considered as to what goes into a score and its meaning. I would agree with that too in one of the things that you just said was interesting in terms of it can't be. I mean it could be unbiased. But it's definitely subjective and I look at Venice a really good example of that. When Venice's doing reviews sometimes you will see two different reviewers on the same wine and they might be three or four points apart or five points apart and just have tasted a completely different wine in a whether it's maybe Antonio Bologna and Neil Martin right tasted something and just had wildly different scores and they'll publish both. I kinda give him Kudos for that. Because of the fact that it shows that there is a different way of looking at it and maybe you connect to one wine writer or another which is interesting. Right which kind of brings me to my point with you is that readers are going to end up connecting to your style and kind of you believe is ninety points are you honing in on any specific regions are you rating things. All across the world I rate wines from all over the planet whatever. I sample so I get sent lots of samples from wineries and wine agencies. But also go to the liquor stores here for media tastings where we can sample. What's coming out in the stores here? It's the C. B. and I taste pretty much all of the wines that are coming out but yes got to agree with what you're saying to your palate with whoever's giving that score and just know what they consider a ninety 'cause it's kind of again like I keep going to these financial metaphors but it's an Australian dollar Canadian dollar in. Us dollar are not all the same and neither is ninety three different critics as long as you know what currency you're dealing with and your Is Lining up with their. I think you're good because it's kinda springboard when I give a ninety. My readers know what that means whereas somebody else might say. Wow a ninety for that Beaujolais. Are you nuts? Like how can you even say that when say Chateau Margaux? Gets a ninety four when my readers? They don't live in a world where they pop open. Chateau Margaux on Wednesday night so when I give a ninety. It's relevant to them. What their price range is what they're exposed to what they're probably drinking. Got It so you're saying is a Canadian dollar very strong these days. I'd like it to be stronger. But that's okay 'cause we love California wines here and I review them all the time and Washington and Oregon so we get a good selection of us but not by far not all of the US wines. Here ORCA so the timeline. When you started scoring is it fair to say it? Was roughly around two thousand five or so yes. You're right Damaso. What critics at the time prior to you writing or scoring wines influenced you or. Did you have any that you followed? Of course we can talk about the big name Robert Parker as well and goose started this whole thing where popularized it. So what was your take on him. And any of the major critics out there were an influence on you. I think you know. No one is more fear to followed than Rob Parker. He really set the stage for popularizing. The hundred points score. I believe in two thousand nineteen. He retired but his legacy certainly lives on in his influence in using the hundred points whereas across the Atlantic. I think the British were kind of wondering. Why on Earth would you ever score a wine? It's kind of like scoring dates. Just something you don't do if you're proper but I think eventually because consumers responded so well to scoring wine more and more critics have gone with it including myself I mean wine as you know is unlike any other consumer product. You can try on a dress. You can read the first chapter book. But you can't open a bottle of wine in the liquor store and try it. I at least not legally. There's quite a bit of Mystique for a lot of consumers and it's quite a big purchase for a lot of people at least those who follow reviews. They're not just defaulting to the same Wang every week so they want some guidance and I think that's the thing to do as a critic all right so since you brought up retail stores Pete in I you know I was thirteen years in retail. Pete you know about the same maybe give or take right. We've sold a lot of wine using wine scores for them and in the beginning of the episode. You did mention the new nineties now in ninety five. Do you see that. This is the trend. You know the direction things are headed in. Today's Day of scoring were twenty years ago. Ninety did actually means something and now maybe a little bit diluted absolutely I mean grade. Inflation is definitely part of wine scores now. I think where that happened is used to be Robert Parker. And some of the other leading critics from the wine spectator and so on were basically the universe of scores used but now of course with social media and the Internet and Mobile APPs and so on everyone's a critic and everyone likes to get quoted or many people. Do they like to see their names on the liquor store shelves and on the other side? You've got the liquor stores wanting to sell every bottle of wine that they have. So they're going to go with the highest score their optimizing. I think on two factors. What's the highest score? We can find for this wine from the best known critic. So they're not gonNA use a low score from a well-known critic so they're going to optimize on those two variables and so when you go into a liquor store these days. You're going to see mostly nineties some hiatus but I don't see anything lower than that and I think that there are new riders not just the new writers. Not just the young ones. But you want to get that attention and the only way you're GonNa get it for a lot of stores. Not every store is if you're scoring wines highly enough so that they're going to quote you so it's kind of a vicious cycle there and then. I think the downside of course to all of that is when consumers start buying a bottle of wine that's been rated ninety eight and it's a whatever. Inexpensive wines don't necessarily not warranty scores but let's say you know it's a very inexpensive fine. Stop trusting scores altogether if they find out what's in the bottle really doesn't warrant a ninety eight and in most worlds that they know I have a two part question around that exact subject. Do you think that there's anything to the fact that maybe winemaking has gotten better over the last twenty years or so making it that way? I mean I think climates impacted that some two and then the corollary to that is do you think that winemakers started to change their style to meet what was getting the higher scores in that homogenized some of the wine industry yes and yes so. I do think that winemakers are improving their techniques and also becoming more knowledgeable in their particular soils and climates. Which greats worked better there? The technology has improved as we've gone on from stainless steel coal fermentation so onto all the younger winemakers or at least apprentices doing stages around the world so they'll go work the harvest in one hemisphere and then worked the next harvest in the next hemisphere. Because as you know if you're in the Southern Hemisphere fall for your harvest is the reverse of where it is in the US and Canada. So they're getting a lot of international expertise and bringing that where they go. So I think definitely winemaking has moved and costs. Come down and definitely your second part. I do think some winemakers again responded especially to the power of Robert Parker in his scores at the beginning making so called fruit bombs though. He denies that his style and catering to Parker to get those high scores because the phone would ring off the hook. But I think that's less and less of an issue now because of the proliferation of people scoring wine and you really have to trust. Who's giving that score? But also I think there's just a wider market for. Why now and. I'm not sure that people are so focused on two or three critics anymore and catering to them. The other point that I'd add is that rating wine to me is very different from raiding a restaurant even a movie. There are as you know thousands of wines that come out onto the liquor store shelves every week. But there's maybe one restaurant that opens in your town that week if you live in a big city so a review of restaurant by the major paper or bike. Traffic critics has much more impact because people are looking for that review. They WANNA know if you should try the restaurant but why reviews. There's just so many going on like so much product coming out so many reviews going out. I think each individual review has less of an impact on the winds success compared to say a restaurant or a movie interesting so you know in this day and age where we have high quality wines being produced you know that we just talked about a lot of people reviewing wines including yourself. Does the audience need you guys anymore? How're and yeah? Your answer is yes. What are you personally doing? That's maybe a little bit different than the rest of the crop. What kind of value can you bring to? The Wind. Consumer great question retired the Dyno's but the moat to pass your so? I think it's developing your tribe so online although there's many many many voices were almost going back to the days when people spoke to one another personally to get product recommendations whether it was wine or anything else and I think we're back to that we're back to small tribes online and finding the critic or the person you trust and in turn as a writer finding my tribe. I think what value I add is that I try to get to know my tried personally. Honestly they like my style. I'm polarizing because I take very personally I talk about it very personally. It's very conversational. I will tell you what's going on my life. It's like we are friends sitting at the table. I tend not to use very technical language but I wanna be accurate in delivered a good impression but I wanNA put wine in the context of life of culture of and so. That's why I read the books I've written. I teach the courses I do and I'm always giving lots of food pairings suggestions. So it's not a very analytical approach it's very conversational approach very personal and you know when I need someone who's been on my newsletter even for a year a lot of them much longer they feel. They know me because I've told them what's going on my life. My weakness for chocolate covered almonds. The fact the fact I put out decoy winds for people. Who Don't know by much and all sorts of things. Also it's mischievous things people like that because they want to know about any topic from another person it's how do they relate to you as a person having that connection and more personal connection? It sounds to me like you're more of an author doing wine reviews than the other way around exactly and that's why I don't call myself a critic even though I am critiquing wines. I actually had another problem with scoring wise so after I got over the first five years and readers wanted them and wanted them. I thought all right. I'll do this but I was and still am to a certain extent but I'm trying to get over myself a writing snob not a wine. Stop and what I mean by that is I thought wine reviews were the recipes of the wine world. So yeah okay fine but if you really a serious writer you're writing long. Narrative pieces writing books in a magazine column as long. It's like working at a newspaper. You start out reporting on the fires. Those wide reviews those the recipes. But if you're really talented you'll be on that editorial page writing wrong for that was really super. Snobby of me and I had to say get over myself and realized that way. More people follow recipes and by recipe books than they do cool Inari memoirs and in the Lion World. What people want and need are those reviews and so I had to start valuing them more what I was doing and what my readers wanted. Gotcha yeah and I think that your analysis is spot on and you're started to do that right before the advent of social media and now that social media's here the age of snippets raid of influencers. You were going to have to pivot that direction anyway Regardless just because of the way that we consume today exactly they want their wine reviews but they want it wrapped in a story and they want it bound with a relationship. And I think that's even going back to the cookbook. Analogy people will buy recipe books. But especially if there's some sort of story wrapped around at like these are all my grandmother's recipes from Italy. And I remember what I was out in the vineyard at three and you know people want a bit more than just the bare bones but we should never forget the value of those barebones. You have some of these old school publications. Robert Parker's advocate the wine spectator wine enthusiasts tune extent magazines. That come to your door now. You can go online and get digital subscription or whatnot but the Internet and how everything is blossom so quickly I think has given you and this like new wave of critics in open door to do this more personal connection style of wine review so some people come to mind like Jeb. Dunnock James Suckling although if you've ever listened to the show you know. We're especially big fans of James Suckling. Here it's just we always poke fun at some of his views are like four words. You know it's just like blackberries spice delicious drink right now. It's like a bit more. You gave this ninety two James. Come on you know. But how was the transition as social media group that just brought up and the Internet grew like how is this hinted or pushed you in one direction or another I think the biggest transformation for me was not just a larger audience and a more accessible one but again were deeply connected more tribal but it's also what pushed me into teaching wine courses so people came to be for the wine reviews and the articles in my mobile apps but they stayed with the courses? And what I absolutely love is when I teach courses now I have someone from Brazil. I have someone from New York. I have a number of people from California. This is just the current course teaching someone from the Netherlands and we all get on like zoom video at is so amazing. I mean they're all speaking English of course but they just come from very diverse backgrounds and regions. And I absolutely love it. These people wouldn't meet each other except for. I've gathered them together as my tribe as other people are doing and they love it. So it's not so lowly learning about wine anymore you're connecting with other people. Were all tasting the same wine. It is just so much fun. It's a thrill actually. So yes pete and I were curious about the online wine courses that you offer and I guess you just touched on it. But how does that work? It's a live interaction with you or does the consumer. If you will get videos that they watch. Is it a combination of both? Tell us a little bit about that. It's a combination of both. So there's a whole set. A prerecorded videos workbooks tasting sheets. And so on. That's all housed on a course learning platform called job. So you don't have to be on facebook to participate that said I also hosted private tastings inside a private facebook group where we do those live as well and then the third component is on zoom which is like skype what we're using and free and easy to use where we all meet on video so we kind of have three tiers of learning and getting together so in one sense it self paced in that you can go through all the modules of the course on your own time. You're this towards the beginner towards the middle like novice expert who should sign up anybody. But it's not the most value out of what you're exactly so what. I say people people I would turn away so to speak from the wind. Smart Course which is my flagship is if you have completed SOMMELIER PROGRAM. Your master sommelier master of wine. Please leave the room. You don't need me but anyone who's taken either no wine courses or maybe up to one two or three courses but still wants to get a deeper richer foundation wants to really sock it in there and also have an ongoing tasting group that they can meet with regularly wants to practice. Maybe they're aiming for a master of wine. That's who it's for. You know I it is also meant for beginners because I take you from the beginning of how to taste wine right through to how to buy it in the liquor store how to choose from a restaurant list and that sort of thing so it's all there and you can go at your own pace and I give lifetime access so once you sign up for the course as I said didn't go at your own pace and that could mean years from now if you want. That's the other change that the online world has brought. I think to course delivery is that it's not one and done. You can always access the materials and you can always access me. Everyone wanted to sign up for this. These online courses is there anybody galaxies regarding that. I mean lifetime like hey. Let's you know the younger better more. But exactly joking aside you know really. How does that work? You do have to be legal drinking age wherever the law is for you liking candidates nineteen so. I have had no underage folks approaching me yet but you know if I compare it to a physical coarse sediment teenagers listening to our show right now that. Ooh that sounds like fun. Yeah let's let's do but compared to a physical course. I just see the online way of delivering a wine. Course is just I think infinitely better. I mean there's always something to be said for live in person interaction. That's great do that too. Not instead of but you know you can do it from your home for those of us who are kind of concerned about going outside our home right now with corona virus mean. This isn't a fear tactic at all. But a lot of people wanna stay at home for different reasons. That could be one of them. The other is convenience. You don't have to hire a babysitter if you've got kids and other one is like two for one benefit. I have a lot of husband. Wives or mother-daughter father son all kinds of iterations taking it together but you only pay the one course feet because you can do it together from home. You know you're not looking for parking and all the rest of it and also if you missed a tasting like even when I'm doing them live. I'm recording them. All so you can always go back to the video and do it yourself whereas if you miss a live course that's it you missed it. Some of my core students even will take one of my videos and stream it to their ipads to their TV. Invite friends over and have guided tasting whether watching me and they'll stop and start the video and kind of talk amongst themselves and make notes and then keep going so people have found ways to use it that I didn't even anticipate but I absolutely love it. I would charge my friends to come over and watch. Yes hosting there'd be there'd be a cover charge at the door for sure. They provide all the wine. You don't have to provide the wine or something. Yeah charge a cover. Charge eight money on it. Get your course feedback when I think of the word. Course you know there's a beginning the course itself and then an end does the course end or you just keep putting out new content for people they can just keep up with you and it's a forever thing so there's five core modules. You could binge watch them. Netflix style. If you wanted to binge-watch not binge drink but you could go through all five modules. What you meant good good. Leeann so you could probably go through all of the modules and I don't know five to six hours but what I've done is all videos are no more than seven to ten minutes because how we learn as adults is quite different from how we learned as children as kids. Course we're in school all day. We have to sit in her desks and so on was adult learners. We just won't tolerate that and that's another reason why I find that in person. Classes are often not ideal for adult learners. Where you're sitting there for two to three hours. And there's a lecturer and maybe a taste. You know ten little samples. People want to do it on their own time line and do short snippets so they feel like they're making progress. So you can go in and out and watch one ten minute video and feel like you picked up a real tip that you can implement right away but to get back to your question. There are five modules. So let's videos. You could imagine dividing all of that up into seven to ten minutes plus the workbooks and so on so you can go through the core of the course of begun in five to six hours and stop there and say that's all. I want or you can keep going with me. 'cause it's no additional charge and you just log into zoom and facebook. Those are bonuses and taste with me every two weeks. We have live tastings so it's a lot of fun for those who want to carry on and keep going. That's Awesome I. We're the people look that up. Where can they go to find your courses sure Natalie MacLean dot com slash courses? They'll find the courses that I offered. They are now and I have a new one coming out. That will be geared from beginner to advanced. It's herring cheese and wine with style and attitude so even if you have w sadder master wide. This is a deep dive into pairing. Wi with fifty different types of cheeses. So that will be coming soon as well wonderful Can you give us like a little snippet on that? Like what's one awesome cheese and wine pairing that you just love? Oh so a done a Beta of this course already by the way so I tested it with twenty students who did pay for it because I want to make sure that it was valid that there's an interest in this but I'll be launching it like the structure that I just mentioned the wind smart. `course very soon so a teaser. Pairing we do all the classics. Of course port Stilton blue cheese. But we get into very funky weird. Jesus like it's okay if you can't find the exact same Jesus but we explore all kinds of different ones like cheeses from Spain that are rolled in Rosemary. We'll try that with Surat. That has maybe a bit of time and Gary Eagan lavender those kinds of elements and see if we can put them together at sometimes exactly so sometimes it works. Sometimes it's disaster and both are great learning opportunities. I think awesome before we wrap it up. I love all this information courses so we want to wrap it up on a little bit different note though I want to ask. What got you intrigued in the wine world in terms of I dunno kind of got your goat a little bit like what do you want to see change anything pissing you off in the wine world that you want to see different going honors or anything happening that you're like stop? We need to stop this right now. And this is that line pot so you can just go all out here natty if you drop a few F bombs. It's totally cool. That's where the conversation really went off the rails. Well I mean I. You know the whole abusive wine scores when consumers no longer trust what they see on the shelves. Because everything's a ninety five that would be one of them. What else see. I'm not a very angry ticked off person. Art Atoll Natalie. It's kind of hard to tell listening to your voice. Everything Sunshine over here. I guess you know. Sometimes with the Internet and Social Media. There's context that is lost. And so whether it's a review or anything in the wine world or outside the white world the speed at which things travel without any context or any nuance sometimes really does take me off like people don't stop it's all judge jury and it's done people don't know any back story of what might be happening. You know whether it's again a trend in the wine world or a score anything. They just rushed to judgement and it's this endless. Mindless Echo Chamber of people forwarding stuff that's either misinformation or lack of context or whatever. I wish people would slow down again and get the real story love. It and I agree with that so last question from me. What is your favorite hangover? All right maybe a glass of Burgundy Hal right era. The dog maze will go with where you're going. I do love eggs. I eat lots of eggs anyway but I find that they're somehow coming to my system but of course in now get hangovers professional. Not so those would be the two things I would come up with. Awesome while you know the time. We're recording this at right after International Women's Day I applaud all of your success. That you've been having it's been an honor to have you on the show and Again Natalie thank you so much for your time. Today has been amazing. My Pleasure Mike and Theater. I really enjoyed this conversation. You guys keep doing what you're doing because you're getting great feedback with your reviews on your podcast and it's really warranted. I really enjoyed this great. Thank you thanks so much. My pleasure bye for now guys. Well there you have it. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Pete D'Amico and Michael Montante. If you like this episode please tell a friend about it especially one who might be interested in the topics discussed about wine scores? And the ways that you can learn more about wine online you'll find links to pete and Mike podcast. The winds we tasted a full transcript of our conversation and where you can find me on instagram and on facebook. Live every second Wednesday at seven PM in the show notes at Natalie Maclean. Dot Com forward slash seventy-seven? You won't want to miss next week when we chat with Amy Savory a certified sommelier an instructor of Kula Nary and tourism studies at the Nova Scotia Community College. She leads tastings of Nova Scotia Winds for restaurant staff around the province as well as other educational seminars on behalf of the taste of Nova Scotia Organization through the support of the Department of Agriculture. We talk about the latest development Nova Scotia winds when she joins me from her home in the Gasparotto Valley. Thank you for the time to join me here. I hope something great is in your glass this week. Perhaps a wine that you'd score ninety points or higher you don't WanNa miss one juicy episode of this podcast especially the secret full bodied bonus episodes that I don't announce on social media so subscribe for free now at Natalie MacLean dot com forward slash subscribe. Db here next week here's.