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Many people watch this blame the parents. I have to tell you, you don't get grooming. And so there was this thought when those two were first accused of oh, well, they can't be sexually attracted to children. They can get anyone. They want. This podcast is sponsored by ADT. This is real protection when it comes to something as important as your family safety. You deserve real protection. From ADT. Real protection means the nation's number one smart home security provider is standing by in there for you. When you need them. Real protection means having a safe in smart home with everything from video doorbells Valence cameras smart locks lights carbon monoxide in smoke detectors in a system custom designed to fit your lifestyle. Real protection means helping to keep you safe on the go in the car or when your kids are at school with our eighty go app and SOS button. 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And welcome to best case worst case. This is Jim Clemente. Retired F B I profiler former New York City prosecutor and writer producer on CBS is criminal minds. But that my friends is coming to a close also sad with me today is tiny. It's former state and federal prosecutor Francey. Hey, cts as you can hear everyone in spite of what some of you have said on social media. I have not murdered Jim. He's alive and well well alive anyway. Well, part of been not been sort of under the weather and producing episode of criminal minds and running around shooting a couple of the shows and preparing for major events that are about to occur. So we're really excited about things. We'll be talking to about them as they come up. But today, we're gonna talk about one of my cases. We are. And I think in a very big sense. It's one of everyone's cases, really really it involves someone that everybody in the world probably knows about. Well, let's just get right in. Then everyone's gonna think we fascinated by this discussion, I've been promising them for weeks that we would do it. So where were you in your career when you first heard about or got this particular case? Well, this is an interesting one France because this one started far before I had a career. This is a case that began when I was a little bit. And I sort of grew up with this case and little did. I know as time would go on that the case would actually come to me when I was nephew profiler as well. That's a heck of a teaser, Jim. It's almost like you're a writer or something. Really? Well, so tell me what you mean you said it began when you were a little kid. When I was a kid. I remember getting my first transistor radio and for people out there who weren't born before nineteen forty eight five. No, they know what I'm talking about. But people after eighty five probably have no idea what I'm talking about. Transistor radios. You put batteries in it, and you turned to a few stations that you had it was a m radio and then eventually FM radio came out much cooler songs and stuff for the kids. I can't heads. And I remember way back when listening to this group in the solo artist a Michael Jackson, and I loved Michael Jackson's music, and we're pretty much the same age. I think he was three months older than me. Here's this young guy like travel around the world saying in with his brothers, and I had brothers and sisters and he had brothers and sisters. I really related to a lot and those great thing. But I remember if we fast board number of years, Michael Jackson, had a very Alestra solo career and moved on and. I remember with anticipation the release of the thriller video. And that was like the biggest thing they spent a million dollars on this video, and it was the biggest budget ever on a video and all this theatrics and scripting and make up an east Har man Vincent Price to do. Some narration of it. I remember my brother was working for Sony at the time. And so he got me in to see the video before it was released. And I remember seeing it and being blown away and saying this is changing everything. But then I also remember short time after that. When I I think I saw the Grammy's and Michael Jackson was with little boy, I think he might have been carried him up on stage. I turn to my brother, and I said really worried about Michael Jackson. So what do you mean? And I said he doesn't seem to have age appropriate friends. He says he loves children, but he only has boys around him the kid that he's holdings actually older than he looks. And that's not a real good dynamic for a let's say thirty five year old or forty year old guy to be with kid like that. Let's not normal for that to be your best friend or your closest friends or your major friend group. Our little children when you're grown up. Right. And so what I explained to my brother at the time was that if as Michael Jackson says he loves children any has these loving relationships with these boys exclusively that he's a human being, and you beings are sexual beings. And it's not a huge leap for somebody like that to form a loving bond with someone and then want to express that in a sexual way. It bothers me. It worries me. And so we watched you know, as this kept happening over and over and over again, it was a new kid almost every year some hung on for a number of years or would come back and so forth. And then the allegations started coming out, and it just confirmed everything that I was thinking not only as an individual. But by this time as an expert. Witness in the air of child, sexual victimization. Well, I mean, I think Jim that it's in context, especially for our younger listeners who weren't sort of old enough in the eighties, for example to understand the massive appeal and massive fame of Michael Jackson people. It's like, well, they'd have to be even older. Remember, the Beatles, which I don't really, I don't remember the Beatles. I'm not old enough to remember the Beatles. Make I game here. But on my understanding is exactly the same thing everywhere. He would go people would would go bananas. I remember did a tour of Japan and the Japanese were fainting. I mean, people went crazy for him. He was so well like verse thing I could do to analogize is if you take every single one of the influencers and YouTubers and Instagram IRS everybody those famous every rapper. Every singer every actor every single person that you know, in your universe. Every iconic person that you know, and put them together, that's Michael Jackson's level of fame. He was the sole universally liked universally. Listen to university admired person on the planet, and he engineered all that pretty much by himself. And that was something that nobody else has ever done before our sense. And so it was really difficult for me to think these things about him. But I thought these things based on interpreting his behavior not out of a whim, and then when people started making allegations against him, and there were million dollar settlements. And there were repeated people coming forward, and he claimed oh, people are just attacking me, all this other stuff. But. You know, what was interesting is that never happened to Elvis Presley that never happened to prints that never happened to David Bowie that never happened to Elton John? And you would think if that were the case that these guys who were much more flamboyant in their lifestyle would have been more susceptible to. But it never happened to them why because they weren't sleeping alone with boys. Seven ten thirteen fifteen year old boys who are not related to them. And so it didn't happen to them because they weren't doing that. It is these leaping with boys. That is an issue. And no, it is not okay to share your bed as an adult male with an adolescent or preadolescent. Boy, he's not relating to exactly. So this guy did it over and over again. And so kind of brings us to the current situation, which is leaving Neverland and leaving Neverland. If you haven't seen it is documentary done by British documentary in who tells the story of Wade Robson James safe, Chuck these are two now young men who when they were children seven in ten years old they met Michael Jackson in thrall by much Jackson. The world was enthralled by my Michael Jackson in these were two boys who I liked him. And he formed very close relationships with them for and their families in for Wade Robson in particular he'd been obsessed with Michael Jackson for a couple of years as a small boy he had joined a dance troupe. He was he sort of was an amateur. He was like a Michael Jackson impersonator as a five and six year old. And by the time, he's from Australia. By the time he met Michael Jackson in Australia after winning a contest Michael Jackson was I mean, not just a larger than life figure to him. But someone he literally thought about an emulated almost every minute of every day. So it was used and so what's amazing about this documentary? And what's amazing about the discussion that is generated is that people actually understand are starting to understand more fully what grooming is and one of the things that Wade and James have both said in the documentary interviews with Braford afterwards in public interviews that they're grooming. Started long before they even met him because Michael Jackson. Groom the world. He did it in a way in what we categorize as a pillar of the community offender. This is somebody who has risen to the top of whatever field. They're in. Whether it's in the community. Or the world like Michael Jackson, and they use that celebrity or that status to get access to kids to lower people's defenses. Many people who watch this blame the parents, and I have to tell you, you don't get grooming. If you're blaming the parents because what groomers do is they lowered the defenses of the parents and guardians and teachers and schools and community groups and sports teams in organizations because they know that people in the general public believe that if you're a good person, you can't actually be sexually attracted to children. That's not the case, you can be the best person in the world and still have a sexual attraction to children, and that is the insidious nature of these crimes. There is no way to look at a person. Or, you know, no, their heart or trust them completely love them and still guarantee that they're not sexually attracted to children. One of the most important things we do for health everyday brushing our teeth hit most of don't do it. Properly. Quip is a better electric toothbrush. 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I know people have said, you know, well, it's evil the devil. Does it? Other people have said, it's learned behavior. But the best minds in the field of psychology in psychiatry and human behavior believe that sexual attraction is built genetically and in brain chemistry that the combination of those things is what gives a person their particular sexual attraction. Now, you can learn behaviors and you could void behaviors. But the sexual attraction itself is something that is intrinsic to human being however, and this is a huge point some people are capable of multiple sexual attractions. And we call them sexually diverse. Somebody who is capable of being sexually attracted by an adult in age appropriate adult and a child at the same time. They may also be sexually tracked into inanimate objects or animals are any sort of other thing. Those people though sexually diverse people are capable of tricking people by being in a sexual relationship with somebody who's age appropriate, but also being sexually attracted to children. And that is another level of problem here. So just because someone is married with kids doesn't mean that they're not also sexually attracted to children, or like some of the actors that we've talked about in our training classes, Mark sailing from Blee a Corey sly from the soaps who were accused of having sexual attraction children one child pornography. The other was accused of sexually assaulting a young girl in his own family while they. On vacations. They both were known to date beautiful Hollywood starlets age-appropriate women. And so there was this thought when those two were first accused of oh, well, they can't be sexually attracted to children. They can get anyone they want. It's actually the same thinking Jim the same wrong thinking that people have about rape when the rapist the accused rapist is someone who's a physically attractive person. They don't need to rape they can have sex with whoever they want. That's not what it's about modes at all. But speaking about sexual traction, two children, the thing is when we say that it is driven by your genes in your brain chemistry, people might think oh within they don't have a choice. Well, then why are they doing in private the fact is if they didn't have a choice if it was behavior that they had no control over they? Would do it right in front of everybody. But you know, they don't and they scheme and they plan and they manipulate name SAS and the obsessed but leaving Neverland was perfect depiction of how Michael Jackson manipulated these kids and their families played on their sympathies played on their their loyalty in their trust in their love and use them over and over and over again and threw them away. When he didn't wanna win somebody else came into the picture pulled them back in when he needed them to testify for them or swear on David and made promises to them again. And then they disappeared again in his life. What was obviously have been. What's interesting jam is I have to address marina. I talked about this case a couple of episodes ago, and since then I've we've had a lot of people write into us on social media, especially our Facebook page, which we love and please keep doing. Asking about our discussion on the parents, and in particular Wade Robson's parents who came to visit United States when way Wade was under no seven he'd met. Michael jackson. I think for the first time when he was around five over in Australia. And so when they made a trickier they were invited to come to Neverland ranch and after two or maybe three days the parents were scheduled to take their two children and go off to the Grand Canyon and Jackson invited way to stay behind. Wade reportedly told his parents that he wanted to stay behind. And so the parents left him there by himself seven years old by himself and Neverland ranch with Michael Jackson who was at that point. You know, basically, a complete stranger and while I certainly understand what you're talking about grooming. And I agree with you. Michael Jackson, was maybe the best I've ever seen at grooming the world because two day there are still people who refuse to believe that he ever sexually abused children. But. Even in the eighties the nineties the two thousand Jim when this was happening. It is absolutely impossible for me to ever understand even knowing what I know about grooming. How someone parents of a seven-year-old could leave that seven year old with a grown man stranger for a week, and this is before cell phones. So there was no way for that child. The content. You go them golden stranger. They did not consider Michael Jackson stranger. That's part of grooming. The world came out saying it's the fact that they believe all the hype everything that was out there. And another thing that they believed it wasn't like this was day. One of Michael Jackson being with their son weighed wasn't they two or day three. But not only that he was sleeping in the same room with Michael Jackson. I am certain that Wade's parents believed. That if Michael tried anything with their son, they're somewhat of told the, oh, no doubt. Because they didn't understand grooming. They didn't understand complying victimization. They didn't understand the conspiracy of silence around it because Wade loved and I'm putting air quotes here. Michael jackson. He loved the image of Michael Jackson. He loved what he thought was Michael Jackson. He didn't understand that. The reason why Michael Jackson wanted to spend time with them. Why Michael Jackson loved him was because he was a child. Michael Jackson was sexually attracted to. He didn't understand that until he had a child until he grew up and became a father and understood how vulnerable his own child was and started thinking with Michael Jackson did that stuff to him. It would be horrible. And so this happens a lot with victims. They don't feel that what happened to them is in. Portent enough that it warrants a big hullabaloo. They feel that though when they see it end at someone they love and have the responsibility to take care of somebody. They brought into the world when that happened in a lot of my cases as a state prosecutor, Jim sexual abuse cases, where we'd have a child disclose only because she was often girls only because she saw the offenders attention turned to her sister, her younger sibling. And then she felt well now I have to stop it. So that is extremely common where you're absolutely right. They don't talk about it until unless someone else's life or emotional health is at stake. But you know, what I wanted to ask you about where some of these details that you know, that a lot of the public doesn't know, and there's been some people on Twitter who have commented to you who clearly have no clue what they're talking about with child sexual. Victimization and do not understand what the context of this is and really all the facts, they don't real-. They don't care about the facts. Let's be clear, but so let's take Wade and Jimmy out of it for a second. So we understand what they've done. We've talked about their victims -ation the documentary thoroughly describes in great and credible detail there allegations against Jackson. But I think what most people that have are many people that have defended him, including the celebrities like Arbor, Streisand and Diana Ross, just shocking and disgusting who've defended him all go back to one thing. And that is the earlier case that you mentioned the case that was actually brought against Michael Jackson. There were all these civil suits. They were settled and hushed up and nondisclosure agreements. But I wanna talk to you about that criminal case you're talking about the case of govern or viso. And the thing about that case it came. To me when I was in the be able now says unit and the FBI got involved as assisting local law enforcement in understanding the case doing the investigation putting together the prosecution and so forth, and so just to be clear that's before the criminal trial. Yes. So you guys were involved early on in the underpinnings of that K. Yes. And not only was governor viso involved in that case at that time and being interviewed by the and local law enforcement. But so was Jordi Chandler and Jordi Chandler is the boy whose father negotiated I think twenty four million dollar settlement with Michael Jackson after Michaels action sexually victimized Jordi Chandler and got them to greed to settle a case and to not bring charges against Michael Jackson, which again Jordy was a child his father made that determination. On twenty four million has bought or you know is easy to buy silence with twenty four million dollars vertically. So the fact is the Jordy was told his story to law enforcement and separately. Governor viso told his story to law enforcement, and they meshed perfectly in terms of grooming and sexual activity and descriptions of Michael Jackson's erect penis and so forth. That's what we call corroboration dosages grub ration-, and although Geordie at some point agreed to participate in that prosecution. He backed out of it because there were serious family issues and ramifications and he did not want to put his family through that. Although he did agree to if the case was not successful in California that he would actually pursue federal process. Against Michael Jackson because Michael Jackson traveled with him interstate and sexually victimized him in other states will end those initiative. I just wanna be unwise sure, our audience understand those charges. That's what I prosecuted as a prosecutor at the US attorney's office carried tremendous penalties. So he Michael Jackson could have faced federal prosecution for crossing state lines with intent to engage in sexual activity with child which also called illegal criminal sexual activity and those carry anywhere from ten year mandatory minimum to thirty year to life. So they're very serious charges that could have been brought off of no doubt, in my mind that if Jordi Chandler worry able to testify in that case, and if Wade Robson and James safe Chuck had been able to come forward and testify that time and I'm not blaming them for not doing it. I'm just telling you if that happened that Michael Jackson would be alive today. And. In prison. The situation was that Jordi Chandler had agreed to go forward with federal prosecution. If the case in Santa Clarita was not successful in convicting Michael Jackson. However that case was dragged out and delayed over and over again until the point where Jordi Chandler statute of limitations had expired. He could no longer bring a federal case. And because of how the case basically disintegrated with respect to Gavin are viso that case wasn't bought for either. So Michael Jackson did not get prosecuted. Federally would he have been convicted federally? I don't know because it's very difficult to picked a celebrity in the first place, can I con IX liberty that's much more difficult convict. However, I did believe Jordi Chandler. I did believe Gavin RV. So I did believe Storrow viso who's a witness in Gavin's case, I do believe. Wade Robson I do believe James safe. Chuck, and I do believe there are multiple other boys that were victimized by Michael Jackson. Groom by Michael Jackson, and they have not felt safe to come forward because they believe that they will be attacked, and they will be attacked because Jimmy and Wade have been attacked. But what I want to ask you, Jim? This is such an important question to me. Why do you believe him? I know it's more than just that they corroborate each other. I know it's more than that. So what else is there that, you know, about this case or that, you know, about Michael Jackson, generally, what other evidence was there out there that tells you that he was sexually attracted sexually interested in children. Besides just the testimony of multiple children, which should be and is legally enough, but it's not just the testimony of them. But internally their testimony is reliable in that it all makes. Sense in terms of the behavior of somebody who sexually attracted to children. It's not just somebody saying, oh, I wanna get money. So I'm going to say, this will you don't know as a child, and you're being interviewed as a child in some cases, or as an adult later, but you don't know how the behavior actually stacks up to somebody like me who's an expert in this field. And when you tell me how the sequence of events from day one to the day were sitting there talking to each other everything that was done the way, you tell me and how the pieces fit together internally in your story. And then how they corroborate the other victims and their stories when we know what was actually put out in the public was just scratching the surface now with leaving Neverland. We have a very detailed account. That's the kind of. Account. I had in your visa case. And in the Jordi Chandler case. And in cases of other people who I know their story, but they did not wanna testify and I'm not going. I can't in good conscious out them. I can't say, well, this person doesn't want to tell you. But this person actually came board told his story, but did not wanna testify. So for all those reasons then there's a way Jimmy safe. Chuck describes sleeping Michael Jackson's loft bed in his bedroom and the bed in the play area in the attic and the bed in the train station and the bed here and the bed. They're all those things are corroborated by actual physical existence of those things where he said that and knowing that Michael Jackson had sort of a hallway. You know, we could only call the masturbation room because he had easy chair. He had a bottle of jarred best lean he had videos. He had he had hard drives of computers that were deliberately fried in that room. And I don't know what was on. But I have a good idea. What was on them destruction evidence, certainly indicates conscious of gal, and then the sort of art books that you know, has pictures of nude boys in it. I just wanna be clear Kim, put air quotes around art bucks. Right. There are actually books that are artistic in nature where people photograph boys girls men, women naked. I'm not offended by that. I don't think it's a crime in every case. But. People who are sexually attracted to those children use it in a criminal way, they exploit those children, and I've had the fence attorneys shove books like that in my face, while I'm on the stand trying to get me to say that this is a riffing and horrible and all that. And I've explained to them the photographer may not have any problem. The people buy that book in general may not have any problem. But other people who buy that book other people who use that book use it for their own sexual gratification. And that is or should be grime. Well, and I I have to say I on like you. I know it's gonna shock everyone. I disagree with you slightly. I am offended by those books of naked children. I don't care what anyone says about it. I just don't see a good explanation for that to me. Because the I understand people say about all the nude body. Beautiful. Agreed. So look at adult new bodies. You don't need to look at children's nude bodies. I feel like there's only one reason for it. Well, I get it. And I almost agree with you. But I also understand that there are other people in the world who literally do not find that sexually attractive but find it are typically attractive, and I am willing to believe that that actually exists. Maybe you don't believe that that for me to believe that. Okay. But you know, I get it. I understand what you're saying. Anyway, be that as it made. The fact is that Michael having that book, and you know, you you're gonna hear all sorts of stories in there people on Twitter and Instagram and everywhere else in social media claiming facts that are not actually true about what he had in. What he didn't have in his in his house on his computers. But I do know facts about what he had on computers. What he? He showed to minors on his computer and what he talked about. And hopefully in the near future. More of that information will come out. I certainly hope. So I mean, I guess Jim what we should say. Because I wanna talk to you more about the interviews that were done with weight and Jimmy by Oprah Winfrey about your own appearance on Oprah Winfrey. But I think we're going to have to save that for our next episode. So I have to ask you are normal question. You were involved in the prosecution of Michael Jackson that ended in an acquittal. He was not found guilty. Which can I just say really quickly. I hate to go on a tangent. But I just wanna make it clear to everyone. Not guilty. Does not mean innocent. Radar exonerated, not guilty. Just means not proven guilty. We really ought to change. Another words the prosecution in this daytime in place was not able to prove to a jury to the extent that they would say beyond a reasonable doubt this person's guilty. That's what a not guilty verdict means it has been the prosecutor believes that a grand jury believed at the cops belated, the FBI believed it so there were a lot of people who did believe it. It was just a jury. Right. But I was going to be testifying as an expert witness in that trial. Unfortunately, I got cancer, and I was going through treatment during the whole time of the trial have a bone marrow transplant. So I was not able to do that. And I know that people say that that may not have made any difference. But I believe I could have explained to the jury in great detail how the information that they misinterpreted actually. Supported the guilt and should have supported a guilty verdict for Michael Jackson as opposed to not supporting it. And I would have loved to have been able to sit down with Wade Robson at the time and Jimmy safe Chuck and a number of other boys and young men that were in the company of Michael Jackson during that time, and I would still love to sit down with them and talk to them about this because I believe I can explain to them much more not only haven't been victimized self but have been having become an expert in this field. I explain to them. And hopefully, help them understand a little better what their behavior was totally understandable. And I totally understand why some people are still denying that anything happened. And why took ten fifteen twenty thirty years for other people to come forward and say what happened to them because it is a natural progression. They're being sexualize early actually created. In them a major obstacle for coming forward. And so we can talk about that more in our next episode of best gays worst-case until then thank you for listening. Viscous worst-case is an ex g production produced by Jim Clemente at empire studios, LA engineered edited by Mike Dahl music. Composed performed by Simba Suba. And hosted by one you can listen to best case worst case on your favorite listening. We are on Spotify Stitcher, apple podcasts and wherever you listen to podcasts. Stories about child sexual abuse can make us feel powerless. But the good news is that there are organising nations work into preventive views and keep kids safe doctors delight and their stewards of children prevented training, his train more than one point four million adults to protect recognize and react responsibly to child sexual abuse. But there's more work to do and with their four million by twenty twenty goal. Darkness. To light is setting their sights on training four million adults around the country to keep kids safe by donating to darkness to light. You can help reach this goal that will make communities across the country safer places for kids. It starts with you. Visit WWW dot D two L dot org today to give that's WWW dot the number two L dot org.