62. LIFE OVER DEATH: the global campaign to end capital punishment
This as reasons to be cheerful with Ed Milliband, Jeff law, Lou. Hello, hello. Now. We we need to start by dressing little political rumor this week. Yes. So I think the started I don't know if it was in the new statesman's political gossip or somewhere, and it started to spread out where but there is a rumor that Ed is is considering a return to front bench, politics, and we've had. An amount of Email by which I mean, an Email from this does this mean the end of the podcast, and we just want to quash this rumor straight. I mean, what's happened. It was news. I must say this rumor was really news to me. I'm I'm on to carry on doing what I'm doing. Yeah. This been a misunderstanding. It's made is considered from politics. And I wanted to keep it quiet. No one's considering me. Somebody's got the wrong end of the. Yeah. No. I think is true. Isn't it that you'll being considering you'll be thought about as parv heading up a government of national unity? Jeff Crecy become a reality. Exact you know, we with staying together. Yes. Or no cracks in this relation. Definitely not definitely not. Good. That's the dress. Yes. And we don't eat for a withdrawal agreement. Because there's always go so. Well, exactly. Yeah. So a of cat through this week, lots on the podcast. So we should start by telling you what I female is. Yes. And we talk about something which is quite serious, which is the death penalty and efforts to abolish it in various countries. There's been news in the last week that Malaysia which kind of got a lot of people more than the thousand people on death row is going to abolish the death penalty. We're gonna be talking somebody from Malaysia about how that has come about. And then we'll be talking to two people from reprieve, which is an organization that campaigns in the UK. Elsewhere against felty is run by somebody used to work for me, and a yearly pot the long line of ex employees who've got onto better things. She's talking about their work in other countries or death penalty. I promise you, there are reasons to be cheerful. Yeah. Sounds a bit. But if you think about the way, this is moved in. Part of progress in a world that feels like things are going backwards to flee part, and as well as that we're going to be joined by comedian, Lauren Pattison, who's gonna be pitching us, some ideas. What's your reason to be cheerful? Just let one for me this week you high have managed to acquire tickets go see Jerry Seinfeld next year while which is one of my favorite comedians. I love that my favorite sitcom of all time. I love his web series that does comedians in cars getting coffee, and I just think he is a stand up master his so precise. So I'm very much looking forward to that to tickets, and you never know it. Whoa. Invited your Jeter. But he can't make you moments a two-way run-off between your my wife's carries. My most. She's going to win will say she she's got to win. Now. Maybe vibrated legend centers. I can let it go. What was your reason to be cheerful? My reason to be cheerful is something which is van averse Serie ish, which is that this week. It's ten years since the climate change act was passed by the house of Commons and came into force the climate change act was something was introduced by my brother completed its passage on to me when I was the climate change secretary is generally seen as a world leading because it committed Britain by law to cut carbon emissions by eighty percent with independent body giving advice to government about how it could meet these targets. It's been emulated in different countries around the world in different ways. And I'm not doing it simply the humble brag. Maybe that's little bit of it. I'm more doing it. Because I think I think it's two things one partly because of the climate change act. We have made progress the country so emissions in the UK back to the levels are nineteen ninety which is good. But also, we need renewed momentum in this. Because if we're honest climate. Has really slipped down the political agenda for all kinds of reasons. And I think it is really really important that we ramp up the agenda, and this I can't help thinking that the key to this is making economic and social Justice part of environmental Justice. So not just making about do we save the planet, but do each make society faira and better at the same time as saving the planet. I think that's in a way one of the things that's been a little bit missing. From some of the campaigning. Cheerful podcast about ideas with Jeff. We're joined now by seven Doris army executive director of SUARAM, a leading human rights organization in Malaysia thanks so much for joining us and give having me to tell us first. What's the history of the death penalty in Malaysia in Malaysia death-penalty has always been the face of the criminal Justice system? Racia- their Bill, Cody Chambliss share imported from India, which was introduced by the British during the colonial era was maintain throughout the years and extended to the security of incest within the country. So in gentle penalty is often shit with the fall murder firearm related drug trafficking and kidnapping which led to there and the moment that are at least one thousand two hundred seventy nine inmates on death row it most of them on death row for tracker drug offenses around nine hundred thirty two so the next largest majority of the death row inmate would be. Through for murder, and I think I'm right in saying that it was mandatory for certain offenses are up to now in Malaysia. That's right. Yeah. So defense is always mandatory especially for this for modify Rams related and also drug-trafficking and kidnapping, which led to death. So this mandatory death centers. Centers. A now we've got the situation where the government of a misdemeanor. Tia recently elected has said it's going to abolish the death penalty. Tell us how this is come about abolishing capital punishment is always ongoing campaign in Malaysia, especially from the civil society. But now after the government change and behind this political Elise allies, there's many of them were previously from the opposition who and some of them are working a work with us on the campaign against anarchy. So now they are with ago with my this cabinet. They're still old onto the relation and advocating for both in Ballymun and in cabinet to polish death penalty. I think so that's the change. How it happened needs everything come into pleases. Now does it need legislation to go through parliament to make the abolition happen. Yes. That's right. So that's the ongoing campaign. So. Probably this will be able next parliament sitting there is issues and campaigns already in public for the abridgement of the death penalty. I'm what is it? That has brought the campaign to this point of the government committing to the abolition of the death penalty. Even though the legislation has still got to get through. How'd you think this has come about apart from having these opposition parties Padre it what has been? The was had the biggest impact with the public. Okay. I how they came the idea of punishment is already there with the previous government. But we couldn't see much of the political will sometimes they say the green table department, and then they backtrack few times. So this been ongoing and then after sometime, they say, okay, let's start with the drug offenders drug related cases. So probably there will be a discretionary power rather than mandatory death sentence for the track offenders. Drag related offenses. But after the change of Goldman again, those in the cabinet now, those with the new government also people been campaigning against that centers before. So they were together with the civil society. They were advocating on on on. So now, the Goldman so it made much easier for them to push forward the already on the table of abolishing death penalty. So that made it easier. So now, it's already in the Ballymun already started talking about abolishing penalty at a prime minister promise this death penalty will go but public sentiment on the death penalty need to be tackled. So this is very important. Again. There is a need to be a holistic engagement with the members of public to ensure that the people understand the concern on death penalty, why it needs to go. This cannot be mere death penalties. Unjust and must be done with its to trade forward for them to seven. But it must be a holistic discussion on how this relative Justice serves better than reputation Justice and enlighten them, the bubbly on how there are at the Netease and second. Is a bipartisan support for the death penalty would likely be presenting the most countries who still maintaining that the government of the should not see to haul all the glory in. Holy Shing that energy and suffer political backlash when the move is seen as bipartisan. So bipartisan support would strengthen the move for bullishness. And would move are more effectively reach out to the general public and internationalized internationalized understanding of the reasons for polishing death penalties. When you talk about public sentiment how far off the public on this. If you look at percentages in in polling, what percentage of the public are opposed to the death penalty. I think it it's like still fifty fifty. But it's also sometimes when you have cases like one of the reason cases is like rape of a child, and then and the baby died so this guy. Supposed to be the guardian. Any rape the baby and the baby died, and the now everyone taking like, okay, you need to exception. Some cases you really need impose dead. So now if you do the survey now probably will be imbalance in terms of four the an audience. Against the death penalty as an experienced campaigner on this. What is the argument that has been most effective at persuading the public that Malaysia should abolish the death penalty? So the biggest arguments put forward some cases, which there is a new evidence led to clear his case back once you're already imposed the death sentence, you can reverse e so so that's why another argument that kipper said okay yard that that makes sense. Sometimes there's not enough evidences. But then you already centers them to death like if you one or two cases in senior or and then sometimes then you have a better evidence new evidence, you know, with technology, then you find out. Okay. So there's there's no clear case, but you can't reverse the decision anymore. The other issue formulation in terms of a death sentences. Okay. We have. Down south Singapore's neighboring country. So they've been like using sentences in many cases, especially drug related cases. And then in some cases, the offenders are not Singaporean they are from Malaysia. So they did traffic the drug and then they got hanged in Singapore. But the same argument this is universal call. So we hope you'll countries in this region reform sued wants militia have abolished this capital punishment. So there are countries like Singapore, Indonesia, lows probably follow because it is. It's it's a global trend many countries are slowly abolishing capital punishment. So let's the big hole. Cylinder asami. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Thank you, which the license to be joined by Meyer, and Anna yearly from reprieve. Hello Hello before we get started. And you used to work for at. But he decided to do something easier working to abolish. The death penalty globally that must be less challenging me. I think it's quite telling I left working to try and NFL team may somehow. Bit easier. Your other sort of long line of people who have got onto great successful things leaving working for me. Yes. Of long line of people the last person to buy. I actually I my age. Lot before I started working for him. And I went up to help him over Brown suit. I have pictures of the Browns, which is basically my retirement fund, Brown code racy. In mazing mazing. So I went up to help Ed setup constituency on this date came to Doncaster two weeks seeing the sights on and I remember you took me to the greyhound racing. And that is when I first downs, and we went over and we had a disco. Remember, we all meeting was it could living on a prayer. Do I think that was when I realized that needed to be permanent. I don't think dance was the moment. I thought this man has to be because inflicted on the country here. In karaoke. It's basically about the level. He sings carry kind of similar relatively low. Definitely. So we should probably start by the talk about reprieve for people who don't know about the what you do can you. Tell us a little bit. Yeah. Reprieve is legal organization, and we work on the death penalty claim we also work on a in can't terrorism. Like one time obey assassinations trying to tax sort of thing. And we worry cherry. We found it by cliffs fifth nearly thirty years ago time flies when having fun guys. It's really years ago and Anna joined us three three. Sense of humor. He's not in the mood of it. We have not found any office. We did very serious 'cause oil. I just I think lots of our listeners will have this position. But it's kind of some may not and it was setting out why the death penalty about thing say for me. Actually, this really interesting when I came from my interview reprieve because we're pre has a quiet non hierarchical structure. I was interviewed by the people. I would be managing that was kind of keep mines v and Meyer asked me this question, actually, she said to me, why do you think the death penalty is wrong, and this is a mazing lawyer in America, Brian Evenson, and he he founded an organization could the equal Justice initiative, and they do a lot of work around and the racial bias of the US Justice system. And he I heard him speak on I saw him on YouTube, and he's got this amazing, quote, which is each of us is better than the worst with other done. And I think about that all the time. And if you think is similar crater sister, Helen Prejean, who's the amazing Catholic nun in the states who campaigns against penalty, and she was the inspiration for the film debt. My walking. And she always talks about you being the better than the worst, fifty minutes of your life. And I think about the law. I mean, the worst fifty minutes of your life. I think probably will you anyway that he's. On reflection. I think the biggest okay. I when I bring. We need to mention it. Definitely. And so for me, I just think if we say to people that killing people is wrong, which of course, is and then also Lucien to that is we're gonna kill you for sharing the killing people just seems crazy in such a stupid argument. I play Graham wanna think that so striking when you look at the death penalty in America, which likes to think that it has a very enlightened Justice system. And then you look at the death penalty in Malawi or Pakistan intonation all around the world. That's all it's always politically motivated. It is always those without the capital who get the punishment said speak. So the people who are the most impoverished of the people who had the most disenfranchised people over the most vilified in society, which means that it can then be used as a tool to oppress how society, so it's no surprise that. We have this big war on drugs. And then suddenly now we have hundreds of people being executed for basic drug addiction. If they even did anything at all and not of countries in the world, we have the war on terror and that's being used to justify ex. Cubans of teenagers in Saudi Arabia who attended protests. It's just such a slippery such even if you think in certain circumstances, it might be justified the ramifications of having a policy that allows us to kill people for the west fifteen minutes of their lives. So for example, that dance that's that's problematical. And so might not say that. But you can see the intention before we get into the specific work, the reprieve is doing give us the global picture on this. Because I think I'm writing saying there are some very bad things happening. But it is getting better the global picture, absolutely. Every year more states abolish the death penalty, either indoor and Pakistan. I'm talking globally and then in specific countries, we're on the brink of abolition in number of countries. And I think one of the things that when you tell people that you work on the death penalty people think it's very depressing actually not because if you win more than you lose your dealing with saving lives, and that means you have an amazing to you get to save lives every day and with definitely moving in the right direction. I don't think I think this will be a relic of and and this is one of the questions that we were exploring earlier with our guest from Malaysia civil why is it happening? The campaigners is it recognition about miscarriage of Justice is it will become a more humane world, which doesn't seem like lots of ways. What would you think? Hey is a combination of factors, but it doesn't work. Right. So anybody who has pro on yourself challenge them to say give me a really good reason for it because it doesn't provide a deterrent effect. It doesn't stop people committing crimes, and it also is costly not just in terms of the expense system but innocent lives in society. So I think as those harms in each country get solve. Solve as we're able to shine a spotlight on those particular problems in the particular context of the country people turn away from it. Because it doesn't make sense. It does make sense, politically, it's a cheap, easy political fixed. But if it becomes more expensive more difficult and something a political nightmare, which is our job all the time is to get in the way of that easy solution than I think people will turn away. And that's what we say. We'll get into some specifics in the but what the tools used to different different countries that using popular support what what's the ways of doing different in different countries. But also of underlying philosophy is always we have to courts that we working in. So we've got the core of law, and we can use that in some countries where there is a proper Justice system, and we also have the call of public opinion. And we kind of you those equally important, I think is to say because if you can't take people with you persuade them, then you're not going to be able to affect the change the one, and it's certainly true in some countries. Saudi Arabia is a really good at the core. Vlore is kinda next useless. What we have to use public next for an external organization. Exactly. So what we are able to ease in Saudi Arabia is public opinion outside of thirty Arabia. So in the U K or in America or another European countries in the time that you've been reverse about to just nitty three three. Time time flies. When you're missing me. What's your proudest of would you say, I would say it's probably Andy say being released from death row in Ethiopia. So he is a British Ethiopia man who has lived in Britain for about thirty years in London with his wife Yemi and their three children. Andy was a political activist in Ethiopia, and that's why he'd come to this country because it was unsafe to stay there. And he was given a death sentence in abstentia say basically in his absence, which is legal under international national law, an MD was kidnapped from an international airport, and he was rendered taken back to Ethiopia where he was held for quite like, flat, basically, and he was held for quite a while with that family, even knowing where he was I think they thought he was stuck at the airport. They were trying to get hold of him. And he was held in four years on death row. And actually it was his amaze. Using wife Yemi he wasn't his wife at the time. But they just got married after he was released Yemi came to our office to see Myron to see the team and to say, look, can I get your help and mire. Of course it. Yes. Absolutely. We're gonna help. And so we over the last four years ran a series of really amazing campaigns both in parliament, but will say an externally we did huge amount of public advocacy on his case. And then in may this year week phone call from Yemi to say, I just had if she just had a phone call from journalists and heath ups to sound it was being released that we can to end up happening. Think partly my correct me if this is I think, partly the political change within Ethiopia is definitely definitely tree. But also, I think for me, it just is a great example of where you don't give up hope, and you you make sure that this wools kind of attention. It's focused on somebody Ethiopia wanted better relations with other countries, partly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was keeping it as a political issue. Our strategy if we can't get into the country, we need to find another lever and Ethiopia this is participant like any. One of us who was sentenced to death for his for writing a book actually for writing a book called freedom fighters who don't know what? Freedom is he's living in London Northland near here. He gets kidnapped from an airport render tweet THEO Pierre where he's sitting on death row, and we needed the British government to do more. So we continue to push the case publicly politically legally as far as we could and lots of different fora because of that he wasn't forgotten. And because of that win that was the opportunity for political change with any THEO Pierre, the prime minister made Andy's case a key case on which he either took up his physician or didn't. He said Andy need to be released or I do not do that. I mean, it's amazing prime minister of Ethiopia wrote. So now Andy's role because he he was always politically active, but there's this international acknowledgement of his status in idiot outside and has this potential to do so much good from having been. Put through such awful torment. I think that's pretty fascinating. And amazing. And that case that it was not easy to take on. You know, it was a case where they said, he's a terrorist wasn't terrors. And this was a man who had written about the political parties as they were formed at the time, and they didn't like it. So we have to be really really careful about how we react when that bogeyman word is yes because the British government will hand off to start with. They said went, you know, there's nothing we can do. He's been sentenced to death by a court will maybe try and get contracts. That's not okay. With speaking the week. When Matthew hedges is beating tends to life in prison in the UAE, and people may have heard his wife talking about his case, his raises, you have the activism or otherwise of the UK government. What is your general experience on this is different in different countries, depending on commercial interests? We're going to be really polite now shit. Much. Actually, maybe we're not play. It is diff- on our relationship. There are lots of areas where we think they could be doing more. You know, we we have a principled opposition to the death penalty. I think of late there have been a couple of instances where we might have wavered on that print Seattle on categorical categorical rather opposition to it in relation to the extradition us. Yeah. Those even these case the former foreign secretary refused cool for his. Crystals called news release in the government politicians which individual members of parliament from blitz capacities. They would but and I do feel that has been a shift. I she with the new foreign secretary. He has been more vocal of around the case of Mackey in the UAE, but will say Nazanin in Iran. These cases that we work on because they didn't facing the death penalty. But he definitely has to be more vocal in saying governments need to need to act, and I think that feels to me to be repulsive change. And it does make a difference in this that question of where the noise comes the government has a right to advocate on behalf of their nationals. And also a principled opposition are the European Union. Plays an important role to. Yeah. Absolutely. They fund campaign and the advocacy work. They do at work about global abolition of the death penalty, and they fund a little Asians to America. Because this is a big focus of your work is one of the places. Where I think I'm right in saying that fewer and fewer states at least to implementing the death penalty. Yeah. So those a little bit about what you've been doing the, let's really it's really fascinating moment in the US right now, they we we do some casework on on individuals. But we also look at the method of execution and they use the lethal injection primarily. Although that's now changing in the US. And what what's really fascinating about that is it was brought in as this software, gentler more humane, and I'm using invested comers. Where killing an and actually the reality is, it's absolutely would be torture. You get traditionally a three drug cocktail of drugs. The first ones meant put you to sleep. But if it doesn't a second one paralyzes, you that's purely cosmetics that we the spectators the public don't have to see any suffering. It doesn't serve medical function. And then the third drug is just this extremely powerful Poten. Sint substance that acts like fire in the blood one of the supreme court justices said it's the chemical equivalent of being Bantu live at the state from the inside. And so this method which has been used for years and years and years and years, they started to have trouble in twenty ten getting the drugs, and what happened in this is where I came in and reprieve started working on the case, they some of the states somehow discovered a supplier working out of a driving school the back room of a driving school in west London act in Acton. West London, it's called dream pharma. And so we discovered this and started investigating the supply chain and found that this guy had sold execution drugs enough to kill hundreds of prisoners to states across the us. They were not FDA approved which means they want. They shouldn't have been allowed into the us in the first place. It did result in some what we call botched execution. US drug companies were not that point that point. I was in difficulties with. Factoring one particular drug. So that's why the states went to can't the UK. They object tend to act to dream farmer over these funny disclosures. Now, they give me less and less. But at one point we used to get reams of documents where they would have Email exchanges between corrections officials as prison officials. And there were some of these dream pharma drugs from Acton. Once we shut them off weeps sort of brought a judicial review and expert control in place. The government put an expert control Britain doesn't support the death penalty by with providing drugs for executions. So we won that one. They cut off the supplies. And then you see the scramble in the US. Whether all looking for the the drug dream drugs, and some officials in California traveled to our Zona, and our officials lend them some drugs, and they travel back, and they documented because I trying to prove they've kept chain of custody. And when they get back to California, they write to the folks in Arizona and alongside sang by your bed. They say you guys in as. Eta real life savers muggle irony because they provided them with the drugs that they wouldn't that they needed to start killing people. They still haven't started killing people and the positive side of this. Yeah. I saw that happening and traced the supplies discovered that the companies who make drugs which ended up fire dream farmer in the hands of all these executioners really didn't want that drugs used in education. They make them, you know, you can imagine the tagline we save an improve the lives and officer basically corporate reputation became a tool to really to reduce the youth of the penalty in the US, and it has worked it has. Yeah. Absolutely. And one of the things that we've seen to all of the companies that make execution drugs, which are of course, medicines being misused in execution chambers. They all they all oppose the misuse of medicines. There's now like fifty companies they've all put controls in place to stop prisons buying the drug, and that's at the impact of cost cutting off supplies in number states in some states have stopped executing altogether majority, actually other states are fighting legal challenges over new protocols and some states. Including the state that invented the lethal injection have now rejected it altogether, and they rejected on on the grounds that they say one the drugs legally to the lethal injection is inhumane, the state that invented the lethal injection said Oklahoma that they've seen executions and other states by lethal injection and not reflect on themselves, of course, and that looks inhumane, and that's really significant because it's the debunking of the myth of the humane medical execution. The figures on this to what the give us the headlines about what's happened. The number of executions in the last quarter of a century of the last few years, I've half the stays because of stays of execution because of lethal injection challenges only a handful of states really executing now, and that's a lot of that to do with drug problems. And a lot of it is to do with really really really good lawyers defending their clients who I got back to that. First point these. Are not the worst of the worst necessarily. These are the people who had the worst of the worst lawyers trial people who get the death penalty. So if we have good lawyers, and if they're able to bring the facts to court, and if they have time to investigate then very often death sentences, get tablet opinion, changing in America. It is changing. That's certainly the case in states where they then don't use it felty. Yeah. That's really interesting because somebody said to me doctor actually who used to be pro death penalty. He and then he learned about the lethal injection became anti-death penalty just unusual route in, but he said, I grew up in a state where executions were happening. And if the happening you think you need them to bit like any rule that we have in this country. If it's there, you sort of think, well, if it went there, maybe we all fall into anarchy. So if you can show a period of time with no executions at actually crime rates, don't go up and actually murderer maybe go down, then that's very persuade. Sive? I think emotionally for people. I don't think it some identikit art that people who've lived in a state where capital punishment exists think that that's necessary. And that maybe takes us back to what we in Britain and other countries that don't have the death penalty can do to say, by the way, guys, it doesn't sky doesn't fall down. And actually we have a lower crime rate or level homicide serious crime rate in Britain than we do in America. And indeed in America, the states with the death penalty have a high moderate, then the states without. So what was your role in highlighting this to the drugs companies involved? Well. Some of the companies didn't know when when state started to use new drugs the companies that didn't make those drugs fees cynical injection. So the first drug pentobarbitone was manufactured by a company called back. I spoke with the company they had absolutely no idea. This was happening. And they will horrified by it that that is absolutely. The case they are all our fight at the idea that drugs used to torturing company it happens to be it's in it's in Denmark. So I spent some time with the company and sometime learning how distribution controls work. It sounds like you. But I am very here's animal tell you. So I spent many many nights talking to people trying to design what would be the perfect distribution controls. The company did not immediately respond to my sanguine need to do something about this and no company had ever done this before they never implemented distribution controls. It sort of understandable. I at the time did not decided that that was not understandable. And that I would I would persuade them. And one of the things that I did was to show. Oh that the lethal injection really is inhumane was we did a press conference in Denmark at which I brought a lizard and visit. Yeah, I had a lizard on the table. I had. I had. Out of that grand. Deidra, had very. Friends. They yet. For my. No, I did not transfer to. But what I was saying was that it would be illegal to do to the lizard. What you are legally obliged to do to a prisoner in the state of Texas when you actually cute them using that paralytic drug that I mentioned that is torture in the American veterinary medical association says you can't do it when you guys animals so for anyone who says, well, isn't it just the same as putting you don't know, you absolutely wouldn't be allowed to do that. And interesting learned back when they when I describe the distribution controls. They see. In fact, I'm sitting opposite said why why don't we do that? We should do that. You sure it just wasn't. He wanted to get rid of you in the lizard comes direct said, we had a lovely lunch, and all of this sort of sauteed, and we have publicly announced that put the controls in place, and the comes passenger missile and said, you know, all of this was great really enjoyed working with you. The controls are amazing. Why did you have to bring the? He was really upset by the Lissette. Most of our listeners are here in the UK. If they're listened to these stories and feeling inspired by them other things are the things that people can do to support the work that you do in the support the campaigns bullish the death penalty worldwide that definitely are. That's a great question. So we have a very topic website reprieved oak dot E K and on that we run a huge amount with petition campaigns, and they might sound a bit sign a petition. But actually, they definitely make a difference and going back to the thing. I talked about earlier on Saudi Arabia where it's very hard for offs in Britain to do anything to legally in the country. What we can do is get people to put pressure. And so we earlier this year delivered a petition to the Saudi embassy. They wouldn't take it. My went with Bianca Jagger, and they refused to take the petition but had hundred thousand people had signed a petition to cool for Saudi Arabia to nor execute young people. So we've identified eighteen young men now, but they were boys and teenagers when they were sentenced to death, many of whom sensiti Filipowicz collectivism, one of them was sentenced to death because he'd administered a Facebook group say this is the pre he was actually on his way to the airport where he was going to go and take up a place at university in America on a sport scholarship says. Seventeen years old Mmashebi, and he was arrested on his way to the airport. And it is I firmly believe because of the work of reprieve and other human rights organizations that those boys that alive in Saudi Arabia because we have shown people in Saudi Arabia that we are watching and that the UK government and other governments and not going to let this happen and say signing petitions writing to your member of Parliament, I know MP's get shed lows from people all the time at she saying to your P you've got to raise this you've got to stop these executions from happening. British government does have influence in Saudi Arabia, and in many of the other countries where we work particularly in the Middle East. And so what people can do is. Why website look our campaign sign up petitions. But also, the the other thing that we do quite a bit of is when we've got people who are in prison facing death sentences. We will send them a birthday card will never fate. We will get thousands of people to send them about they caught. And I know some people think oh, isn't that? Nice. It's not gonna work. But actually last year we help secure the release of a young Irishman. In could Abraham Halawa and Abraham was seventeen when he was arrested in in Egypt. He was on holiday of its family, and he was rounded up on a protest in Cairo. And he spent nearly four years I think facing a death sentence, and we sent him a letter card signed by fifteen thousand people for his twenty first birthday. And we didn't know if he got it or not and last year he was released came into our office. Thank us. And he said the thing that gave me hope when I had lost hope. And that wasn't mazing. I mean, we were also slightly influence at that point. But that was incredible. And he said the Irish concert gave it to him. And they said we're gonna take away, but you can have look at it, and you can see and he read these messages, and he said at that point I was on the brink of giving up, and I I do think those things can make a difference to the individuals. Absolutely make a difference to the cases we've got one other question, which is we have the single in the coastal Jeff, oh, Chrissy, which is Jeff as the benign dictator ninety definitely have the death penalty. Let's say he appoints you as his sort of death penalty envoys anti-death penalty involved, but better better put we would you be the dancing and his voice. Well. For the job advisors. So what what's the thing? You would do what was thing you'd be telling him to do nothing. You be you'd be reprieve. Just maybe Pauley on the subject of British influence and the British governor controlling the bridge. Gary thought a Lenore scare is the current situation. The Jeff controls the British government. But what what what what could be what what more could be being done. I would say the British government have enormous influence around the world with a good thing or a bad thing. But they do, and I think the British government stand by their principles if we have principal being opposed to that I felt it which we've had in this country since it was abolished in the nineteen sixties then we need to stand behind that. And if that is saying other countries where they are using the death penalty as a form of repression and political tool, then we need to tell people that us wrong. And I don't think there's anything Clooney wrong about saying that I think that's using our influence for for good does work. Yeah. Absolutely. Does work. Like the case. I said in Saudi Arabia or certainly in other countries. It does work it doesn't work in every country. That is fair to say, and you have to do that. Kind of country by country, but I think the British government absolutely soundbites principles and when partitions facing terrible situations overseas. Whether that was the case of and Ethiopia or Matthew UA or Nazanin in Iran is absolutely right. That the British government say it's wrong. The participants are treated like this. Yeah. I completely agree. And I think it's also supporting supporting the organizations on the band in. That's what we try to do all the time is partner up because you can understand the situation on the ground and change it by working with the people who are experiencing it, and and they need that external support, it's not a colonial thing. Actually, if we can boost the case of a guy a kid and Saudi Arabia's dry from his bed, and brutally tortured and sentenced to crucifixion we should be doing that. And and people in positions of power in government like Jeff should be healthy. I. I'm in. We're in Myron. Thank you so much for joining us. Hello. Hello. It's me. We forgot to do the on this week's podcast were after the discussion. We kind of summarize it. And so what we thought is where we pretend the we're doing a cool. We've just worked out I think so because it would it would sound strange if we just recorded it and didn't village the fact that you're on the phone, I go to break down the full. Yes. And we got to admit the fact that we found out three days ago. We don't we don't wanna patronize them. It would. I think those was like bring bring. Yeah. Hello. Yes. We forgot just a bit sort of say really, it was going to be done with a wink to the listener Shuming that they would know it was all sort of done tongue-in-cheek LIC, which we again. No, no. This is fine. What did you do the episode? Well, I mean, I I'm struggling to think even more than usual. I'm struggling to think of anything that isn't inane because of course, the work that the doing reprieve is incredible. And the fact that more and more countries are bullish ING, the death penalty's is just a positive thing. No other way of looking at it. Really? I think that's right. And I think it's something about the fact that this is just. This is incredibly hard work. But that they're doing, but it sort of uncomplicated. Uncomplicate the work. The Coles Shamin definitely is awful and from stop and they all making a difference. And I think I think the message it sends is really encourage people to get involved with route Greaves campaigns Kevin's struck me about the discussion is they might be saying look external pressure is often counterproductive 's. Kind of makes people or as you could imagine people might think that, but obviously not external pressure really makes a difference and actually external pressure from Britain makes a difference that putting pressure our politicians or other countries is really important reasons to be cheerful with Ed Miliband, and Jeff law. So if you have any thoughts on what you've heard actually stories of campaigns that you've been involved in have made a difference. We'd love to hear from you can Email as reasons at Chipper podcasts dot com, you can find us on Twitter at cheerful podcast or an instrument to it's the same and on Facebook Facebook dot com Strug, whichever book us, let's this comes from Jay Ryan who says Hello recently income sation with former green party leader, Natalie Bennett and another person, then they mentioned that was interviewing you've Noah say, listen, that's nice. Yeah. Shutter to natural the other per the unnamed person. Yeah, I'm Jay. One of the loud wind. No, one creates an app to identify propaganda effects. People just wanted to say that I have well JR continues. I'm an educator and multidisciplinary designer and I've created a system of empty propaganda. The I call reset propaganda. A gave it this name because his aim is to use the common tools of persuasion and psychological manipulation found in all forms of propaganda marketing Tyler biases, provide alternative narratives and show. How these tools are used to manipulators thereby revealing methods to look out for in the future. This one comes Rachel Sedgwick. It's on the three day weekend says I have it behind the times, but I've just been your podcasts. And I thought it was interesting points are on the three day weekend. When you think about in reference to the Google model the four day week model is to have staff in less often. But permit more productivity would you create workplace environment than with fewer collaboration zones. And perks such as muscle Gitte cetera because that runs in taco traditions the way most modern certainly within tech companies themselves up a place where stall stay for long as possible potentially all through the night. But by sister, nap polls, in-house balls internal restaurants, ping, pong tables, gyms cetera thought, it was interesting. The both these employ folks is trying to achieve the same thing. But one encouraged off to stay for as long as possible and crates distraction one is his houses possible with no distractions. I think it is interesting because I think Bloomberg's top in kings cross. And I think they made a big thing that they weren't going to have in house did lose because Italy. Because you can teed massage gyms, blah, because they want to get out and about into the community and the didn't necessarily want everyone stay at work for ages would be interesting if there's any data on that Silicon Valley tech company model of stuffing with fund year. I tend to maybe they wanna treat employees. Well, also move. They will just keep them though. Definitely the flute. And this comes from, Dan and samba and the subject loan is an apology of sorts a says, I'm relative newbie to the podcast phenomenon and came to your podcast voter guardian article, and he talks a little bit. And polka study says a now for my apology. I am a reformed mind I fail. The subjects touched on with regards to media, forcing a narrative upon its readers and whatnot. Really struck a chord. I feel these narratives was strong well before the referendum even within the mainstream media, and we're really come into the fore ED's leadership of the labor party was happening. He says I watched back at speeches now. And I think what an inspirational person is. And was and yet when I watched them at the time, my I know best mindset made it almost impossible to appreciate an empathized. Just this joy that somebody's watching your old speeches. Yes. At least somebody's what was it? You said banging on something. I said bugging droves on thrown on with regards to speeches because of your own baggage. You thought I was talking about your speeches roading on. All right is also just a guest for a future episode, Email reasons. Cheerful Todd Castell, call find us on Facebook tweets. Cheerful podcast and joining us with some ideas that could be potential reasons to be cheerful comedian Lauren patents. Hello. Thanks for coming in the heaviness was going on with you at the minute must show. I didn't bre just yet. I never thought I would so so let myself in that was a really cool thing today. And I'm like a lot of admin I can do only that someone do this focus. And do you. Do you drive don't everything? So not that. So you, so coordinating trains trains trains. Right. Feel like they need to train point site that who annals that's a great idea too. That's good. Them. I couldn't re train points. Definitely slow. Any Bruin some ideas, which could be essential reasons, which was was your first one on this actually travel related? I want quiet so on and child freeze owns on like planes trains unveils. Queue somewhere else. Karen, there's nothing that stresses me out more than when I sit in the quiet cooked and get more stressful than getting onto a plane with a bogey smoking. If they add like of parent and child zones, it would be more chill for the parents because I like my baby can make much noise as they want to pretend the green with us sort of do not necessarily even that show. But but maybe we spent the other one be like parent babies owns right? Cutoff on the eighteen thirty. I get on the quiet coach and someone gets on for baby. Let you know that baby. Gonna be quiet. Don't the quad Koshi. Quiet coach, John quite. I think the shouldn't Banney kids lab at someone. You wanted. Trouble very into their react. The being comic is obviously the the the thing to do. Yeah. Definitely like I hit people looking areas that don't have been something of a tension talk into people's reading like the most appropriate career path. I think popping introvert, but being a performer of some kind. Yes, you're in control. Yeah. Definitely, you know, you doing on your own terms of Bill Iran Lendvai your today. Like, I can be this person for twenty minutes after the twenty minutes are over now. Anymore because we should be renamed info. Abandon this quiet. Intervals extras, but maybe that's good that you have one coach extrovert where I can go live chats. Coach of the middle ground. Finally, we. I get rid of plants other than trooper coach an extrovert coach, I'm into it. Yeah. Finally, we we've blurred through this for over you. What should it start do alone? Listen, I go movie with my nephew is very good. Seven very cute. Your trouble trends, I've got on the I remember once getting on the bus with him when he was really like walking ahe didn't need a bogus. What's been maybe four or five and he fell asleep with his eyes open. I was just produce them. And I was like a few my fitness just not answering. It was the creepiest thing I've ever seen. We just like carry them off the books, and then he walk up on me on just like jolly didn't even Finke fell asleep. And there's a date may it was very weird has ring. Wide. Open like glazed over. No, no. Already possess. Sister's best a demon. But we watching the LEGO movie and how they have taco Tuesday, and it brings everyone again. Confuse introverts nightmare though. But it's nice to have one day where everyone's like, would you? Every day every other biannual would you like stay in your house? Not let other people do feel and Paul of something kind of not like, Jeff, I know I wish people well. The St Paul. Everybody enjoying themselves. What are your community? You wanna bring the communities we need something. Like in the LEGO movie that brings everyone together a little bit community spirit as they've ever the use of the extrovert introvert. I think I am. All right one last idea. Lauren do and I'm not kind of all ready. So of thing I wanna make it more of a thing. I think young people need to get more involved with politics and that women in the world by place. This is a young person young person five one young person too. The problem is loft. With you. She was. Yeah. It's too convincing, and it's not acceptable enough. So we need to think how can we got politics two young people people love violent. I love violent and I get so behind people on reality TV shows. I think we need to sneak politicians like into low violence into the circle, and then people will find themselves getting rainy like behind these people and not realizing that was fun. I should say that because I was listening to the arches on the way David a going to a seminar on the opportunities and challenges of Brexit. So there you go. So when people say, and if you do what you got me out of here, you would have a wider audience than you'd ever happened. You could be able to get your message across to the Electra. What's your is? Not doing reason why why is that a nonsense insects, right? Not to get sexes. More. Across not to go on with like, it's PowerPoint Brazil. Universal basic income. Fifty one. Options. I'm a celebrity. Strictly used is been done strictly be done. Big brothers doesn't exist. Love island. It seems that you're up shit. I'm not going on level officially announce tries. Don't mind doing a cameo PowerPoint. Like a weekly challenge. They lose the challenge. Lauren wanna come and see year? How can they find out about this tool that you've decided to undertake yourself transport interesting trae and in the client? Interval? Follow me on Twitter at lower parson, then apostrophe thing on their thanks so much. Reasons to be cheerful with Ed Miliband. And Jeff, Lloyd, we're in the outdrew. I know what I want for Christmas, by the way. So this man called Mr. L who's I think this type rouses name published? A book about words, the going out of fashion the words as a scripting language, and sort of remarkably or not remarkably this to be mostly words. A us. I'll give you a little sample licks middle. Definitely one of mine got souks. That's sense. Since one of mine, patchy fog, England, compute, rob. Because I mean. All words. I would definitely use Kreider. There was a crumbs is going, right. He did leave do a Rudy. Obviously the power plant less. You're preserving. Preserving these words. Yes. Generation us, right? Frame. It's about that's my role. But anyway, so that's my bid for Christmas present would you like Christmas world peace? I'd I'd like a recording of use angle these words for posterity. So that they're not lost. We could we could do reasons. Beautiful time Cup show. You know did didn't blue peaks where they buried one. We could very simply about garden with all. Your your strange words mannerisms ceremonial. Yes. That's not bad idea. We do have. Thank you. Yes. So I'd like to thank civil Doris army and a yearly admire four and thanks to learn partisan. You can find on Twitter and in the nation's comedy nights up and down the country. And the caution produced podcast. Get Lofthouse is our announcer James Deakin mode the seeds. Composed the music. So he's been Mr. woefully Rooney. He's been Mr. legislator. Lisa pay.