Improving your sales processes with Jeremey Donovan
Today. We have a great episode. We're going to be speaking with Jeremy Donovan, he's the VP sales strategy of sales loft. So he really knows his stuff he's analyzed millions of emails and millions of campaigns. And he's going to talk to us about how to define your outbound campaign. Whether it's tips from writing your the content in the mail to how many phone calls to you should have to anything that's involved with your outbound campaign to really good inciteful episode. So you're going to need to grab a pen and paper and take some notes, and before we get started like to tell you about startup sales in what we're doing. If you're an early stage startup, and you need help building out yourselves processes, whether that's inbound or outbound sales processes, then we could come in and help you with that. We could help you in building the processes itself writing the content for emails putting together your outbound strategy. And the infrastructure around that and building and training the team to implement everything once it gets up and running. So if you want more information on that, you could find out at startup sales dot IO or you can Email me at atom at startup sales dot IO. Let's jump into today's episode with Jeremy and learn how to build your outbound processes. Startup sales is a podcast about what it's really like to get a business off the ground. We talk with founders CEOs and sales VP's from the high tech market. You'll learn how to build and scale a sales team. You'll also hear about the growth challenges and tough decisions from others who have had both successes and failures. And now your host to the startup sales podcast Adams Springer. Jeremy thanks for joining us today. Thanks so much, Adam. So for all those who are listening. Can you explain about who you are? And what your role is at cells Lofton what your experiences. Yeah. Well, who I am sounds like a sort of deep metaphysical question. But who I have at least in my professional life is that I'm responsible for sales strategy at at sales loft. Okay. And for those that don't know what sells loft is first of all. Welcome start learning. But can you can you explain little bit about says often what you guys do there? Sure. Yes. Oh sales loft without being too to pitchy about it is a sales engagement platform. And what that means is if you're trying to prospect and get meetings with with customers, then you can use us in order to orchestrate your Email phone social direct mail at cetera. All you can use that to orchestrate all your touches. So you don't have to keep track of who you touched be a what channel it just reminds you when you get in the morning pulled up tells you who to call who to Email and what to do. Yeah. Great. And I know a lot of my guests that have been on. Here said says lots of his a great tool in one of their favorites. So. So let's talk about let's jump into it and kind of go off there. And if you're charges like sales strategy and stuff you're in charge of defining outbound processes, guys. Yeah. It's really three things. So we have a sales development team. So SDR's like you have in many places, and that's sales development team rolls up into me. And right, we're defining how we respond to inbound. We're also defining how we respond how we engage in outbound where majority outbound. So that's a definitely big part of what we do. I do have to other pieces to my job. Which is our solutions consultants or sales engineers roll up into me. And then and then the sales strategy thing is basically any sort of major change management that has to happen within the company, let's say, we're defining territories or defining comp lands or what have you anytime? We're doing a major change I'll tend to get involved in both the kind of walks in all three of the people process and technology aspects, do my thing and then hopefully handed off to someone else to. To continue to run that. Yeah. All right. So let's talk about the outbound part. How do you? How do you have that structure? First of all, how do you have your team structured before we get into how to go out? Yeah. So I'll even go higher level with how do we structure our our sales organization or go to market function. So we like most companies have a marketing function right in there doing all kinds of the traditional things at marketing. Does they're doing field marketing, they're doing demand generation, I digital marketing and so on so they're helping to drive awareness in the population. And then they're also helping to drive leads as well. So it leads than the the another function. We have is their sales development function. And those people their goal is to book meetings with prospects. And they get paid on meetings that get held and qualified after they had them off to sales people. So that's that's that's the sales function that we have ourselves people. Who are hunters? So like, many SAS organizations, we separate our hunters from our farmers. So our hunters closed business they'll typically hold onto an account for as long as there is up sell potential in most of the accounts we work with that's about a year. And then they hand that off into our customer success slash account management part of the organization, it's really interesting because many of the organizations I've worked with and heard about the you close the sale and typically you'll you'll have like a window of two to three months to up sell them. But typically, you're right away passing it off. Yeah. Choose to go that way. I think it's very contextual. Right. So if you take it really is what's the window of opportunity for up, sell because sales people you want you want really need them to land and expand. I think there's almost there's little debate about that. I mean, if you if you try to wait for a massive deal to come than e putting your your business at risk and customers don't necessarily want to buy that way. They're willing to to test. In whatever way is a small way for them a little company small way might be. I don't know five or ten seats of a product in a big company that could be five hundred seats of a product, but they're going to test in some way. And then they want to scale up. And then the question is how long's it take? How long is operatives exists? A significant opportunity up sell in in a smaller company that opportunity might only be two to three months, right? A quarter. Or let's say older for ninety days for us. We've found that in general. There's a pretty good up sell opportunity for the first year in the mid market second. And then we also sell to large enterprises and enlarge enterprises. We might have people hold indefinitely. So that's not uncommon in the places that I've worked for the the strategic accounts to to have hybrid sales people where they they own the accounts indefinitely because the up sell opportunity is indefinite. I think it's really a function of of that that that's how you should decide. Whether it's thirty days sixty days ninety days a year or forever. And so are the for the ones that are more mid market. The says executives are they also responsible for the first renewal then. They were. So they will actually though the first renewal is done. They kind of the hand off his is there the customer success people will do to first renewal. So they're holding it up to almost the end, then they're introducing they customer success professional to handle the renewal. Okay. What are some of the downfalls in in this system? Yeah. I mean whenever every hand office is presents opportunity for breakage. Right. So the hand off from the FDR where they've booked meeting to the sales executive is is an opportunity for breakage, and then the hand off obviously from the the sales executive to the customer success slash account manager person that's not pretending for breakage. So I think there's a lot of or I mean, there is a lot of process and and discipline that you can put in to at least minimize some of that breakage. So for example, I mean, the thing is basically the warm hand off, right? So when you're handing off from an SDR to an e you need to make sure that everything that that prospect substantive everything substantive, the prophet told the already told the FDR, it's communicated to the right because the the prospect wants to feel like they don't have to repeat themselves, and that they're understood and known and the same thing holds true from from the account executive to the to the customer success professional that they they wanna make sure that everything is known about. You know, everything that should be known as known you don't want after Pete yourself. I mean, I've had that experience myself where there's a transition from account executive to CSI or from one CSM to another. And it drives me crazy when they asked me all the questions that I just answered a month ago or two months ago for someone else. Right. They should have that all documented in in and their Sierra. I just had a I signed up for a demo on on one companies page last week. And then somebody emailed me and said, hey, I'm happy to set up a demo, please. Here's my calendar link. And then I click it I set it up, and then they emailed me right away. Thanks for setting up. I let me introduce you to John who's coming to the demo. And I was just talking to you like what did you do there? Like, how did you help me? And I'm thinking that's really poor poor transition. Yeah. I mean, it's it is the typical. I mean, frankly, it is the typical SDR to to a transition. I think the there's a couple of ways to handle that. Right. I mean, what is in that? In that intervening time between when the STR has booked the meeting and the and the meeting is going to be held. They don't necessarily have to introduce the in advanced, right? They can say once they get on, you know, once a call. Starts. They can say, you know. Hey, this is this is Jane just wanted to let you know. I've got our sales director Wilma on the phone, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And maybe the SDR starts to do a little bit of the initial framing of the call. And then hands it off just naturally conversationally to be who picks it up. I don't know. There's a right way. But but certainly in that early part of the relationship you want the FDR to who book the meeting with you and establish some degree of trust. And reporter to still be still be involved to to hand off that trust in a in a positive way in my my tuition that was the hand off. It was like hair. Thanks bye washing. That's no good. Yeah. Qualify me. Yeah. That's not good. So yeah, it's very likely in that instance, that the the scheduling people were not part of the company that it was outsourced which is an option, by the way, we can talk about that. If you want, but some people outsource their their appointment setting, and that could very well be what happened there because those folks are just paid on getting the meeting, you know, getting them meeting book often, I'm for early stage startups on very against outsourcing at the beginning, you lose so much of the the opportunity to speak to the customers and speak to the prospects. And learn about the marketing learn about your product market fit. But curious what it what are your thoughts on on a thousand percent agree with you? I think outsourcing is a special tragedy in early stage startups where you are finding product market fit. And where so often, you know, you may want even more senior people doing those early sales calls to figure out what's going on. You're still defining your sales processes, so. Yeah, I would absolutely be a tragedy to do that. And then even for later stage companies, I'm. Very curmudgeon e sour puss. Whatever word you want to use with respect to outsourcing the appointment setting function for a few reasons. One is that. Is so often fails, and I've talked to people who run outsourcing firms about this. And what were they come in? As they say, look, if what you're trying to do is define your sales process, and or trying to discover whether you have fit with a new segment of the market that outsourcing fails at least ninety percent of the time, and they're pretty transparent about that. Right. 'cause 'cause you don't have those rations that you would otherwise have where they where they say they thrive is is basically to provide you a scale once you figure it out your sales processes, and once you've found your go to market fit within that particular segment. So yeah, I mean, I'll I'll give them that. I think there's there's another thing that's really really important which is the function often pays for itself, not simply by booking qualified meetings. Great if it does, but very often the DR function is your feeder. For your account executives. Right. So in my experience, the best the the status attestation on the side. So you're much with probability that someone's going to turn out to be a good is way way higher. If they were at SDR for you, I and if you take some time to model that out economically, it turns out to be really economically beneficial to to actually have an SDR function. So the. In training. It's it's an eighteen month training program. Right. It's a terrier to. It's the hardest job in the world. I think being an SDR, but it's an integrated eighteen month training program. I've encountered one exception to this. Which is there are some companies where the where the the level of sales people that you need is so near that that you're not gonna find SDR's who are going to move who you're talking to move in SDR who has eighteen months in the job into a sales job that requires eight two plus years of experience and sales, and there are places like that. I was at a place that was like that where the START thing just didn't make sense because. With very very few exceptions. If a nasty are had extreme, you know, grabby toss and presence, which is possible in the twenty five year old is pretty rare. So that would be my exception. But in many cases, though, if you need that level of account executive typically, it's better off to have a full cycle account, executive, don't, you think absolutely absolutely. Because that's super relationship driven things or you want to minimize as many handoffs as possible. So I would definitely go full cycle there. Yeah. All right. Let's let's jump into the meats and go on outbound way wish should've company start with wanting to go out. Yeah. So as you would expect right? I mean, the starting point is to figure out your your is your ideal customer profile. Right. So you're gonna figure out who are the companies. You're gonna go after a lot of I think a lot of a lot of consultants and pundits. So we'll say like, we'll give you these very complex things about defining your ICP, practically speaking, I think, it's your thinking about probably industry geography and size as your three major dimensions. If you add anything else, it's probably something that is a requirement. If let's say you have a technical requirement to use your platform. So for example, we we inter operate with a certain set of Email clients particularly exchange, and and g mail, and we inter operate with a set of Sierra GMs, and if the customer prospect doesn't have those technologies right that's outside of our ICP. So I think industry size GIO for sure. And then some other criteria. That's a great indicator. Either goodness of fit or or porn ISSA fit is prob. Ably sufficient. Can you give an example of one of those indicators? Yeah. So for us the goodness. A federal porn is if it as I said for us. It's like the port is a fate would be that they that. They don't have exchange or g bell, right? Like there on on something like Lotus Notes, for example. Right. Or if it's a Sierra. And there are some more SO teric Sierras out there beyond the the sales forces, the dynamics and so on if they're on a super esoteric CRM, which does exist than you know, we're not gonna be able to support that. So those would be disqualifier 's. And then there are there are sort of qualifying pieces of icy EP and for us, we tend to sell too much more tech savvy companies. So if you you know, if you don't have a somewhat higher volume like we're looking for that that tech tech savvy tech savvy p so like if you're in the chemicals industry, right or even someone asked me yesterday, whatever he's asked me yesterday is because I came from the I was originally. Semiconductor engineer, and he asked me is the semiconductor industry a good of good target industry for us, and I'm just flat out. No because they they have extremely long sales cycles. It's super relationship driven. It often goes through distribution. Like, there's all these reasons why it's not a good fit. Yeah. All right. And would you when you're defining your ICP, are you looking at persona as well? So yeah, I think the first pieces company, and then the next piece is okay. Now, we found the company that expertise is the persona who you're going to go after and you know, I think the dimensions the big dimensions of that really are the person's role and the person's sin you already level. So companies will decide whether or not they're willing to talk to individual contributors, some companies start manager up some companies start director at up directors convenient because internationally right director could be senior vice president or even even in the US and the director could be senior. So a lot of companies will say basically director, plus or director VP, plus so that's that's kind of seniority level. And then obviously the job function is you know, if you sell to we sell to the sales function or someone else might sell to the marketing function or to the finance function or legal function or if the operations function. Or what have you? Right. So I think figuring out functionally the to go after and then. If you're in beat a b you can't really get get away from Lincoln, and we love Lincoln. So why would you want to get away from it since it has so much richer information? So you're gonna come up with some Boolean search drinks that are indicators of both job, title and of an. Seniority level. So you can you can identify all those all those people using you know, what's great. You know, great tool Lincoln sales, advocate or. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So how are you using Lincoln sales navigator to once you find define your query? How are you using that to contact them or older information? So one. One piece of rewind which is that we're account based. So we have a signed would a dentist that universities in the ICP of potential accounts, we have assigned to all of the account universe out to our our as a lot of early stage companies don't have to do that. They can just basically say anybody can go grab any account as long as long as you have touched it in the last thirty days, it's yours like that's a pretty common way to operate that. I would say for most Rohe's stage companies I would probably recommend just doing that. That because my metaphor is is you got a big ocean. Right. And you go fishing, and if there's no biting. Yeah. You just move to another spot. You know, like, it's not until you get bigger that you actually say, okay. They're not biting okay now. I got it. Like, maybe I gotta change my technique. I gotta put us different line different rod and different bait and go a little deeper and all that sort of thing. But when you're when you're early I would say just have have a really simple thing, which is like anyone grab any account as long as long as you touch it in the last thirty days, you get to keep it. So for us as I said, we're account base and now moving onto the persona thing and using linked in to your question. Right. We'll we'll execute those Boolean searches and we're going to you know, we have different tools that we use in order to pull those pull those leads from Lincoln over into our CRM. And then enrich those leads with contact information right with add the Email address add the phone number two to those things. So we're using we're using lead IQ in order to pull contacts over from Lincoln navigator into our CRM. And then we use a combination of sources clear bit and zoom info in order to enrich the leads with contact information. Nice. All right. So now that you've you've got that. I mean is there any other way that you're sourcing leads? No other than you know, whatever inbound things that we do Lincoln sales navigator really is our our primary source. I have and prior jobs sourced bought lists of from other sources, and I found that those lists never really produce. So leaked it sells alligator hands down. As is the is the most valuable source because people are right. I mean, sort of obvious reasons right with that people are are self maintaining their profiles. And they're and they're they're it has the highest accuracy of any source. Yeah. It's straight straight from the source history. Trump source. Yeah. It gets weird when you sell to an industry that where people don't participate in linked to end. Right. So if you're selling to. Like, I I would assume that a company like yelp has to take a very different approach right because the peop- the small business, particularly with small business owners, right pizza. Shop owners burger places, whatever those people are probably not on linked to end, and they need to find other ways to to find those contacts. You have other scraping companies for this. All right. So now, you've got the there you've used you've defined your ideal climb profile you've use linked in and other tools in order to get their contact information than what you do. Yeah. So now that we now it's the heart and soul of sales engagement. So we follow a combination of stuff that we've learned from some research firms like topa was a great research firm and the sales development space, and that we use our own data science. We were up to about a billion interactions between. Our customers and their prospects. So we will will kind of sniff into that data to figure out what works for us. We have a cadence of sales engagement that consists of phone Email and social touches we execute about fifteen or so fifteen sixteen steps over the course of sixteen business days and the starts out on day one with a call followed by an Email. We found that having a call followed by an Email is is the right way to do it on day one based on and again research of what's working for for us in our customers. And the call is something like, you know, hey, Adam this is Jeremy from XYZ company. Looking to get in touch with you about, blah, blah, blah, value proposition. I guess and I'm about to send you an Email. If this is interesting to you just respond to be, and I think that's a that's much more effective than here's my phone number. Call me back at this number. No one's ever gonna call. You back never happens. So just say, hey heads up on the Email. I think is is the right way to do it that we dropped the Email. And then are you are thing basically that we found that you should spread your touches out. So that they don't look like they're coming at irregular at regular intervals. So we basically do that pair of touches on day one. We waited day. We'll do another set of touches will wait two days touches, we'll wait three days touches, wait four days touches, so we're expanding the the amount of time between each touch to give it a little breathing room and fairly call heavy. We do. About five Gregor five calls where we don't leave a voice mail in two or three calls where relieving voicemail we don't wanna leave voicemails all the time. And then we also do about about five or so emails, and I should get the exact numbers in front of me should probably know them off that top of my head. And we do to social touches to social touches start with one light social touch. So light social touch would be something like, you know, a follow or like or a comment on someone's blog post. Right. It's something where you're not kind of invasive Lee trying to get in there, you know, into their network and that so that's touch one. So you at least you're giving a little bit of value first, and then touch too is that you then. Touched to is the actual connection. Do you want? Obviously, personalized that connection requests. Just don't just use the generic connect. So you you actually engage them first before. Connecting with them. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's very much the either do unto others as as you would have done unto you or do unto others as they would have done to them, which I think is even even stronger platinum rule if you will the the for me personally, right? I get tons of connections on linked in. And if you're listening to this, by the way, you're welcome to connect with me. There's a ninety nine point nine nine percent chance. I will accept your connection. 'cause I accept almost every connection unless you look like, you're not a real human. I just want you. And I haven't got connection approval yet. Because you probably just sent I guess because I literally was on. I'm I'm an addict, I'm Langton. So I was literally on about about just before just before we hopped on accepting connection. So yeah, go ahead. And connect with me, if you're humid, I I will accept your connection. The the these connection requests all the time. And sometimes I get this like page of garbage trying to solicit me for something. I don't wanna read a page of your generic marketing copy, especially when you know, what I've got so much content out there on Lincoln, and that'll like how hard would it have been for you to to engage to actually have something relevant to me as opposed to your boilerplate. So so we we sort of apply that logic, right? Which is give them some value. I by following or liking or. Commenting on on something that they've done if it exists, and then then you can do the connection requests. And when you do the connection request again, no long boilerplate, Email, ask connection just something super short and contextual. And personalized for them that that shows that a real human wrote it as opposed to you copying and pasting or a machine doing it for you. You could only automate so much before it becomes ineffective. Yes. Yes. And then like, you know on those on those emails, we're constantly. Optimizing and we look at our data to figure out what works. So. For example. We know that one word subject lines performed the best. And if you exceed for words, it's it's very bad. And we know that asking questions in a subject line is bad. We know that subject lines that are have normal capitalisation like that grammatically. Correct. Capitalization beat ones that are like all lower case, for example, as some people think so we were constantly looking at that sort of data science and then tuning and then tuning that. I think one of the most fascinating ones is is the greeting when you say if there's like, Adam comma or or high atom or hey, Adam or Hello, Adam. It turns out that. Hey, adam. Is the best. So things like that. Right. We're constantly tuning in to make sure that we're we breakthrough can is. It's more personalized. It's a haze more like a friend speaking to a friend. It is you just got it like the fundamental thing is I could rattle off tons of best practices for how to craft sales engagement emails at the end of the day, the common thread that I've noticed between them is is like this balance of friendly formality, right respectful friendliness. However, you wanna combine those those sort of false dichotomies, I guess, and then it would be you would run a write the Email the way that you would to a colleague inside of your company as opposed like that's the rule. So if you would not put a PS two colleague in your company, which you would not do then don't do that in a prospecting Email. And in fact, that's one of the things that that actually lowers your response rates if you put a PS in there, and you know, if you wouldn't put a tunnel. Links in an Email to an internal person. Then then you shouldn't do to prospects. That's another thing. That's bad. So like all the things that are bad are things that are coming sensibly bad. If you just think about how would I how would I expect to send an Email to a colleague? I would even take it a step further. What I normally teaches is to write it in a way that like it matches your tonality when you speak. So don't put marketing words in there. Yeah. If you would speak to your colleague and say it's in the exact same way. Then it's good. If you in that way, then it's bad. Agreed. And by the way, the data science backs up. What you believe that we checked three things on this on that in that respect one of them was we checked the, you know, like you take a marketing class you read these books and the books say use hyperbolic language or language about gains or urgency. And it turns out that using that language is lowers response rates and using like more new neutral language is better. We. Threw it into a word sentiment. Dictionary. All all the all the emails into words dictionary. And like neutral actually does better than than sort of the positively biased or negatively biased. And then the third thing is we threw it into like, a grammar analyzer, and we've found that the response rate basically declines as you increase grade level so elementary school or middle school level emails get the highest response rates. But then once you go into high school level. Language and post college or post secondary language, your response rates dropped dramatically. So yeah, keep it simple and the data science backs that up, but it's really interesting that the grammar changes everything the grammar does change. Yeah. Change everything. Well, simple like short and simple. Yeah. How how long is your like, generally your first Email that goes out and outbound Email? Yeah. So we are. Yeah. It's probably between fifty and one hundred words, depending on how it gets personalized. That's another thing is there is a drug dramatic drop off of response rate after the after about one hundred words, and I think that I haven't measured like how many words you can fit onto a mobile screen wasn't with either zero scrolls or like half, a scroll, but it probably correlates to that that sort of magic magic window of around. Fifty fifty two hundred words, fifty to seventy five words, I wonder how many sentences that is because I general. Tell people to try to keep it to two to three sentences. You're a Adam. But the the context is two to three sentences. Yeah. I think I can go a little bit. I think sentences. Let's call it. I don't know. Ten words, I'm guessing. So yeah, that's like twenty thirty words. I didn't even go to you could probably go to fifty you know, easily five six senses. But once you go beyond that, then you're you know, then you start to get into bad territory. I think it's okay to have like a relatively personalized beginning. A little bit of a little bit of hopefully, not too heavy marketing body Texan, then their request for the meeting by think, that's okay. Mean we've found that. That's that's okay. But yeah, keep it keep his shortage. Humanly possible that get to the Email too. By the way, which Email to we tested a bunch of things, and we found that the best the best Email to is just to put please advise in the body of the bell. So it's threat at Email. Right. So you got the body the previous Email, and they're so you get in the re and the subject line. As you naturally would with a threat at Email. And then you just put please advise in the body of that. That's that's that's the most effective Email too. And that's just how you end things off through his advice. Please advise. Yeah. We tested that versus our regular Email to you, which is a bit longer we test that I as any thoughts question, Mark. And we had a bet going on please advise resenting thoughts I was betting. I was I was on the side of a police advise. But I like the inside scoop because I've used that before and and seeing the data science at that before it, and it continues to work fairly effectively on. Want to take it away from outbound for a second on inbound elites I like to use a lot is is this still relevant. Do you have any science on that? I haven't I'm gonna write that one down because it's easy for me. The check that. So that. Yeah. Certainly if they haven't responded than than I think that that makes a lot of sense the on inbound. Yeah. I mean, I think this right question. Because if they're not there their interest is in the moment, right? The moment they click requested demo or contact us or whatever we actually for. I don't know if I can use curse words, I guess. So for shits and giggles. I hit a hundred companies requested demo button and benchmarked how long it took them to respond to their first response. And I'm doing this from memory. I know that forty percent responded within five minutes, which is what people often advise you to do another ten percent or another twenty percent responded within the first hour. I think it was like ten percent within the first ten minutes. And then another ten percent with between eleven minutes and sixty minutes. And there's things that say five minutes is ideal. If you do within an hour, you're probably still fine. Ben. So that left another forty percent of companies who took longer than an hour often days to respond ten percent of the companies. I hit ten out of the hundred never never even responded to request a demo request. I actually hit I do this periodically. I hit one yesterday. Or no is late late last week. I guess and like. Never. They never responded. So what we do on inbound. You wanna go there where what we do on inbound? Not yet. Let's all hold off. It's really interesting because I'm curious if those people were qualifying you, and then they decided you're not qualified and then just dropped you which is still not. Okay. But it makes more sense would make sense. They just dropped the ball. It would make more sense. But I think they largely dropped the ball. I mean, you know, we were in between series and series D. Like, I was not hitting someone who exclusively sold to the enterprise, I was hitting someone who sold midmarket and enterprise. So I don't know. Maybe they looked at my face and decided I wasn't. I wasn't that good candidates assaulted. They didn't like the look of me sometimes. All right. So let's we've built the cadences. You have about five calls to two more calls with voice Mel about five emails into or so-social touches all within sixteen business days. He said, yeah. Within sixteen business days. Okay. How'd you there's a bit in between the the step before and getting those prospects? And starting this these cadences which is qualifying them because if you're going on linked in and you just do that. Are you doing any manual qualification before you before you send those emails out not? I mean, the qualification is is on the is on that persona criteria right that they need to be director level or above. They need to be working for companies ever certain number of employees. They need to work in a certain set of functions. Let's say it's in sales development or inside sales or sales management, right? Like, so there's been a round of I. Yes, you call prequalification on on company ICI P, and then on the persona of the individuals. So that I would say that that's the prequalification. As I said, we also look at their tech stack. So we have some data on that from third party providers on text x so that also gives us direction on formation about who to about who to engage, but there's not really much more. You can do than than that in that in that first wave that any other. Yeah scale I mean any other substantive qualification is gonna come once you once you connect with them. So how many would you do you know, any numbers on? How many are miss qualified to how many sneak through the cracks in aren't the right people or the company. Yeah. I mean, I guess it gets at it gets at our whatever your disqualification rate is that once you get on. But I mean, the things were disqualifying on are are different than the things that we we sort of qualify on in the in the that we prequalify on. Right. So I mean, there's not really I doubt that much slips through on the pre qualification. Nation because. Unless whatever our data sources wrong about the number of employees in the company or unless our data source is which in late in is pretty accurate about that. You know is wrong about what industry they're in. And that sort of thing like, I don't think much much Guisti cheat on that the Q happens once the salesperson gets on. And they're doing discovery and demo and discovery part. You know, finds that that there's not need, right. It's typical. I mean, I don't care. A lot of again, the consultants. We'll talk about all their different different versions of qualification frameworks. It's all banned just or him. That medic different different Edwards at them. They just find they find a synonym and they build a new word, and then they trade market like it's all the same shit. And so so generally in those early stages, right? You're just qualifying on like it's too early for budget because they're gonna find budget if they if they have a need, right. And it's probably too early on thority also because they're going to pull in right them at your job as a salesperson is to build consensus inside of organizations across the people who are making the decision. So it's too early to Deke on thority, you're really going to you're really gonna qualify or disqualify mostly on need and timing. So like, you may find they just, you know, there are chemical company, and they just the need is just not there, like the example us earlier or timing wise. Let's say they you know, they they they just bought a competing solution. So the likelihood that they're going to buy within the next whatever six month window is so low that it's you know, you're going to put them into nurture and maybe put a flag in your CRM. That says, hey, like re-engage in six months or something. So you can you can try to try to win them over versus a competitor. But but yes, I mean in terms of the in terms of the. Like, prequalification should be pretty smooth. And then you just gonna do the the need timing stuff in the in the first wave, I always hated the band authority. I think it's the most useless. I mean, if you're qualified to your ICP to begin with and. Authorities. Nobody sits there and really waste their time. Talking to us sales person and going through this process of their not having the authority to either drive it internally or make the purchasing decision themselves anyways. Yeah. That's why like I mean, I think of thority in the app slightly more abstract way. Which is. Yes, I think it is the authority the level like decision making authority, but I think with authority in terms of early stage qualification, and I guess maybe this is where the medic variant comes in is really about understanding who the decision makers are. And what's the decision process? Right. So a question I love to ask during during discovery is who in addition to you is involved in making would you know, who it is? You will be involved in making a decision to purchase the solution. And I love that question because it you're not saying who's gonna do it imply that it's not them that that they are involved. Right. And and the Miller Highland method. Is great for this. Right Miller Hyman talks about three types of buyers. And then there's like an adder one is the economic buyer of which there's one it's it's the person who ultimately signs the check. Our ultimate. Yeah. Check. Then you've got technical buyers who are the people who are going to evaluate the solution and are often people who would say no could be IT. It could be procurement could be opposite could be whatever. And then you've got the user buyers. The people who are actually going to use the product. I mean, all of those people are there all decision makers. Right. I mean, they're all involved, and then that that's sort of plus one is that someone's going to be your champion probably one of the user buyers like all those people matter so so that for me, that's what thority is. It's it's decision. It's it's all those different decision makers. And then what's their process for actually making decisions with the company? How do they get that done? Definitely. All right. So how how does your outbound? Process differ from your inbound, it's actually relatively similar the the major difference. Is that our outbound? We always personalized the first Email and with inbound there's this tradeoff, right? Which is I mean ultimate the ultimate goal would be that you both personalise and engage within five minutes, that's really hard to do. So if you have to choose one or the other than you, choose engage within five minutes. So what we do is. If someone comes inbound what we will. We will. It comes inbound we sort of auto score them. And then we because we're account based we know which salesperson is associated with every every account, and if that association exists than we trigger an automated, Email that goes out from that person to the prospect, and it says, you know, hey, Adam, thanks for requesting a demo. Here's my. Here's like calendar. So you can click right here to schedule. Thanks, Jeremy Wright, super short and tight and and low effort on the part of the prospect like they get instant gratification on that Email, and then there's no back and forth about scheduling. I just give you my calendar. Right. Right. Then and there for you to schedule. So while your interest is at its peak. You can you can grab a calender slot. And I think about eighty percent of our of our inbounds get scheduled that way. And then we have them in a we're using our own tool for this. So we haven't been a cadence in if they don't book the meeting within basically twenty four hours, then we start to execute those call Email and social steps after that. And I love your thing about is this still relevant. So like all definitely test test that out at as baby I use the subject line still relevant. No question. Mark just still relevant. And then I write. Hey, john. Is this still is? Is still relevant to you. Or is it still relevant for sales loft? Whatever it may be and Mark. That's it. Yeah. So sorry about thing. We begin is mostly about instant gratification at instant ability to book meetings. I think that's the that's the secret. You know? That's that's the best practice. Okay. And. What are some of the two, you know, the numbers of flake response rates for your outbound end inbound open rates response. Rates response. Rates. People have some benchmarks to what's the average. Yeah. I don't have it off the top of my head. What I do know. I don't have off top my head for sales loft. What I do know is looking at our own our customer base it obviously it varies by all sorts of contextual things. But if you blend hundreds of millions of emails together typical Email response rate for an individual Email. Call it three to seven percent maybe five in the middle. But, but you know, depending on the depending on on kind of where it's coming from. And where it's going to yet to about three to five percent. And then that's just for one Email. And then obviously because we're we're our customers are executing phone, Email, social direct, mail, whatever like comp- camp, basically engagement campaigns. Right. They're gonna have anyone touch has a has a five percent response rate. Then you're gonna have to sort of accumulate those touches, and you probably get to you know, asked me aspects yesterday. It's probably about one in ten people that you engage you all to get a meeting with. And then outbound. That's outbound. Yeah. Inbound much much higher. Right. I mean, they right. And there's two types of inbound there's there's like warm or hot inbound. And then there's there's kind of fight paper inbound. Yeah. White paper down so said, the white paper inbound doesn't really convert much much higher than the than the regular outbound. Obviously, the the red hot inbound requests a demo. Contact me that stuff converts at extremely high rates. So outbound you're seeing typically around ten percent. Would meeting Ray meeting. Yeah. Meeting rate a bunch of places. And it's it's like it's always ten percent. Like, it's it's one of those things that that there's a few numbers that you just see everywhere you go, and that's one that I've seen ever ri- everywhere. I've gone. All right. And you one of the things you said is on the inbound ones that it's really important that they you get them while they're hot you send that Email within five minutes. Why not put the calendar have the routing options happening in the background when they click said Boca demo and then show a calendar. Right, then and there for them and show the availability of the as calendar. Yeah. I think that's a. Yeah. I think that's a common thing to do a lot of companies are using like drift these days to do that. I think it's a great thing to do or what? Or there's a lot of competitors. I'm not gonna promote one versus the other. It are calm. I guess is another big one, and there's a whole bunch of other ones. But yeah, that's a very common thing that if you want a meeting just start put put them into a into a I ask sort of thing that can book the meeting, right then and there so. Yeah, that's even even they're equally. Good people like to engage in different ways. You know? It's not like everyone. Wants to engage in one way. Some people like the drift sort of thing. The I bought if you will. And then some people don't so just provide multiple options for people to get in. I think as a way to do it. Yeah. Typically, ignore those little bouncy things in the corner. Yeah, I do too. Like, I'm much more likely to to hit a contact. Contact us button or requested demo button that I am to do the bouncing thing in the corner. But that's also like, I'm not I don't even know what I'm gender. I guess I'm jed ex probably which which I used to think of is like the young people. Now gen-x is the old people. Yeah. It's the cycle. I'm also feeling every day. I call them. I'm getting older. All right. I I know I've seen a couple of times. Like people are just putting an I frame of Callan Lee of the the there. So it's not even going through an AI. You just simply choose the date and a time, and it's right there all I think it's perfect. The key is going to really integrate that with with the right if your account based than the right? Eighties calendar. Right. That's not super sophisticated to do that. But I think that makes a big difference. It's like don't just because you want to minimize the handoffs. And if you can just book it on the account based book it on the on the right as calendar, you're golden, but yeah. Again, it's gratification. Trump's maybe that's even worth the hand off. Right. Yeah. Like if I want to demo I probably wanted them right now. Ideally. I'm curious as to the drop off rate. If you just if you had people do that in how that would work if because you could always have your as always available. Got a big enough team could around rob in that way, and pretty much get it equal. Yeah. Got if your account base, you totally while you definitely want to do the round Robin thing. So you get the speed if your account based than you're sacrificing you know, that that load balancing that you get with the round Robin for something deeper, especially when you're after going after. Like enterprise accounts. You don't want to round Robin in that in that environment. You want to make sure it goes to the person who knows the business and can have that contextual business conversation. But if you're selling to ask them be like go for it round, Robin all all day long. I wouldn't if I was selling enterprises I wouldn't just jump into a demo just because they asked for one right away. And I still right. Different issue. Indeed. All right. So last question before we get going. We're getting close on time here. Why what is the the number one tip that you would give to people to increase their outbound numbers bacteriology? Switch one word. It is I'm a big I'm a big fan of this book called cracking the sales management code. Jason Jordan and Michelle visit Vanessa I think her last name something like that. And that basically talks about as a as a sales leader you have. You start with your business result? Right, which is also about generally revenue you work backwards to a business objective, which is often something like an opportunity generated, and then you work back from that to what are the activities you need to get to achieve that objective, which the business result. And the only thing as a first line sales manager or leader, whatever the only thing you can affect is is like two things it's activity volume at activity effectiveness. That's all you have. So if you wanna increase your your production, easiest lever to pull is activity volume and second easiest or like harder. But the only other thing you can really do is effectiveness. So my. My. For better or worse. Like, right. It's it's it's just math. And if you're not making your, you know, whatever number of dials per day, you're not sending your emails per day. Nothing's going to happen. I see oh my worked for the head of. He had a great expression is like if you don't knock sort of obvious expression. But if like if you don't knock on the door he'd already doorbell and that was an answer. That's it activity is by one word answer to that. Yeah. I would put a big Asterix though on that. And I know this isn't what you mean at all. But don't don't burn your bridges in and through too much activity to the wrong people. Yeah. Fair fight like the Astros. I agree with you Astra's. Jeremy rod a time. So I really appreciate you coming on how can people learn more about sales Lofton, and this outbound numbers that you guys have. And and also about you. Best way to learn about sales lofta your sales off dot com. And then best way to learn about me is is avoid all social networks except for Lincoln. So connect with me, a Lincoln, and I tried to post something, you know, data driven actionable every couple of days, and and like I try to practice what I preach on linked in that. I don't put garbage on there. I don't video myself walking around and talking. I just try to do something short and sweet. Yeah. Right. Jeremy thank you very much for joining us by pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for listening to startup sales with Adams Springer subscribe to the podcast. So you never miss an episode contact at him about speaking engagements or consulting services at Adam at stirred up sales dot IO. Our Jeremy let's finish things off for the final five. All right. What is your favorite sales or leadership book? Wow. Read for sales and leadership advice. I there's not one person. No, I follow John barrows and I enjoy following him. And then I follow Keenan the sales guy. And I would say it's love it's like a love hate or bittersweet kind of relationship that I I think is content is often outstanding. But I'm not. I love his style. But I looked past the past style. Look at me. Oh, sorry. One more. I apologize which is Chris Orlob at gong. Actually, he probably is my number one because he has such great data driven stuff. Yeah. Just had a a meet his CEO and founder on the show. Awesome. Great. Are you vailable twenty four seven or do you have strict personal time boundaries? I don't have personal time boundaries. But I would say it's available from eight AM to eleven pm after that. I shut down. Good. What is your favorite tool used for sales? So I can't use my own company. I guess. Scree great tool, and I think it'd have have a solution like this I joined because I was a customer for many years. But besides that, I think my favorite sales tool is Lincoln sales navigator accent? What one piece of advice, you have for all the founders and sales leaders out there. Well, I haven't been a founder. So like, I probably don't have the credibility to give advice except Beato keep your head up. Probably because because it's from the founders I've noticed incredibly it's incredibly hard for the sales leaders. My advice is is I really pattern this after the sales leaders that I've had the most respect for them that I learned from it gets another book, I love is not a sales book, but it's called radical candor definitely one of my favorite books, and the just a radical candor is is that you cared deeply and you challenge directly. And I think the my advice to sales leaders is basically build your relationship capital by carrying deeply about people all the time. And then you spend that relationship capital challenging them directly to to achieve what they need to achieve to be successful. What you need them to achieve to be successful so practice practice. Radical candor is my advice. Excellent practice around Ogle kit, radical candor, I'll put that book in the show notes this well for everybody listening. Yeah. It's incredible book. Jeremy thank you very much again. My pleasure. Thanks again. Adam.