BTS #24 Angus of The Real Seed Co. on The New Taxonomy for Landrace Cultivars (EDITED)
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Only podcast you can do that. At Patriotair Dot com slash about cannabis. Everybody's Jason Curious about canvas podcast. Just want to give you a brief introduction to this episode because I think it will provide a little more context going into it. That hopefully will help you. One understand the content of the episode. A little better. And hopefully we'll help you appreciate some of that content a little more as well. So in this episode I'm speaking with Angus of the real seed company again for the second time on the podcast. And if you haven't heard our first episode. We first spoken episode. Three of the podcast and we spoke all about cannabis taxonomy in the twin biodiversity of cannabis varieties and the illusion of genetic diversity among modern cannabis hybrids and fast forward a little bit of time. A paper came out in this year. Twenty twenty that directly addressed these issues and that paper is called a classification of endangered high. Thc Cannabis domesticates and their wild relatives by John mcparland and Ernest Small. So we both read this paper. Were emailing each other. Had all sorts of ideas. We're really excited. And we decided to get together for a podcast up so to talk through our thoughts about the the paper after two the episode after we recorded it we both realized that one we failed to even mention the title of the paper we were talking about were and then We also didn't really summarize a lot of key points of the paper until about halfway through our conversation and so we a little worried that anyone listening. That's coming in from With no context that they might get a little lost so just a minute or two here. I'm going to very very quickly. Summarize what this paper presents and then I'll leave you to the episode to listen to US talk about it so in this paper which I'll repeat the title again it's a classification of endangered high. Thc Cannabis domestic. It's and their wild relatives within this paper. Mcpartlin and small present. A TEX nominal model for cannabis away of categorizing cannabis that consists of one species cannabis sativa two subspecies sativa and Indica Cannabis Sativa subspecies Sativa Cannabis Sativa subspecies Indika and within the subspecies. Indika all of the high. Thc varieties of cannabis fit within their among several varieties. The subspecies indika contains four primary varieties. That have been identified so far and within our extended conversation. You'll hear that we have some ideas. How there could possibly be more varieties? But these four varieties of cannabis sativa subspecies indica are as follows variety. Indika which would be most similar to what we colloquially refer to as Sativa is be true South Asian domesticates that have narrow leaflets with a leaflet linked to with ratio of greater than six which means that the link is at least six times that of the with and then we have variety. Himalayan this which would be kind of the wild type version of these indicators. Then we have righty AFGHANICA which would be Kinda true Central Asian domesticates and what we locally would of refer to as indicates and these would be plants that have leaflet linked to with ratios of less than six so these leaflets are wider and broader. And then we have variety aspirin which is kind of the wild type version of these afghanica plants and basically this paper proves presents a botanical key for identifying these plants in the hope that by being able to organize these plants in identify them we might be able to preserve the genetics and ultimately preserve some of. This joined. Alling biodiversity and really. This paper is a call to action for people to really start wrapping their heads around how to talk. Categorize these plants so that we can get to the project of saving this biodiversity so in a nutshell. That's what's going on with this paper We're not gonNA talk much about Cannabis Sativa subspecies Sativa But if you really want to know the drill down on that it's basically Two varieties of subspecies sativa their sativa and spontaneity. Espontaneo would be what most people would refer to as Rudra. I'm not going to get into the details of that read. The paper read the supplementary material that goes along with mcparland smalls paper in. It'll expand more on that but our focus is really on subspecies Indika and these high. Thc landrace cannabis varieties. So that's that's pretty much it. And as far as how this relates to the cannabis you're going to get into dispensary as Angus will say in the episode It means very little. All of the cannabis that's in the medical markets and adult use. Markets are all extreme hybrids. And this whole idea of differentiating indica. Sativa and everything. It doesn't even make sense in that context So that's a summary of the context for this once again. The paper that we're talking about is a classification of endangered high. Thc Cannabis domestic gets in their wild relatives by John mcparland and earn a small. I recommend you look back paper up and read it before listening to this episode if possible and also go back and listen to episode three of the curious about canvas podcast. Rican here the first conversation that Angus and I had about landrace cannabis varieties And biodiversity and all that and with that I will lead to the episode so thanks so much for tuning in and as always stay curious. You're listening to Jason. A curious about canvas podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in once again at today. I'm really really stoked. I am joined with one of my early guests and friends that was able to talk to you. At the earned the early days of the podcast angus from the real seat company. Thanks so much for being willing to come back on. We've got some exciting stuff to talk about It's great to be. Yes exciting paper this so yeah looking forward to yes so what? We're going to be talking about today. Relates to our first conversation that we had Which is all about Why first conversation went in a lot of directions but Talking about cannabis taxonomy. So there's a paper that came out just this year By John mcpartlin and earn a small. Both of whom we talked about in our first conversation and specifically this relates to Landrace varieties of cannabis and Talks about the importance of preserving those genetic so This is really come around full circle. And I'll go ahead and prepare people say that between the actual paper and the supplemental material. There's about one hundred fifty pages worth of material the centrally a book but Angus. What before we get into the nitty gritty details of what was present here and My thoughts in your thoughts and kind of how it meshes with your experience in the field. what were your initial impressions upon reading this paper? Safari taxonomy goes. My instincts is always being to defer to the experts as far as I can see on a small Israeli the taxonomic to defer to. He's some specializes in an all kinds of different places. But he's been publishing about it since the early seventies legislation is based on his work So I was fascinated to see that he has come round to the view that the two main domestic domestic the to the tweet. Sort of Genesis who've sub-species Indika now do merit formal recognition this As varieties in a stricter botanical sense. And you know they. They've done between mcparland more done the work to justify that clearly. They've been looking at Harry collections. All around the world it seems and I think they say about one thousand one hundred different accessions. They've they've looked at and yet clearly satisfied that this is justified. And this is more than just sort of pedantic exercises actually quite important to get people to stop taking conservation of these plant seriously if you look on the genesys database. I think there are about one thousand four hundred accessions of that kind of a sativa. The species in NJ banks around the world but out of those as I forget the exact number but it's a piddling amount this full role. Something accessions of sub-species indicator. I mean it's ridiculous five. I'm sorry five right. Yeah so this is a serious situation. I mean this is an incredibly important plants. And it's it's it's a. I think they actually understate how critically endangered it has mostly what they talk about sort of anecdotal examples of people. Introducing Hyper Non Chino hybrid most of the examples. They gave a from the seventies and eighties so an mostly Simpson folk people bringing. They talk about one guy. I forget his name. Who is who says some Mexican seats to Afghanistan in the in the early seventies and then they they mentioned that I think Chanaka someone talks about bringing them Afghan landrace in the pool in the eighties but I don't talk about. This is the whole seed industry with the online online seat industry. And if you look at the the shipping lists of your average dot show seed company. It would make for horrifying reading. I mean the the the online sort of Internet commerce is just arriving in places like India and Southeast Asia So I I I mean. I'm just like some huge business park to the type of in Hyderabad India. I think so there will get up for on on coming to India so in the next couple of years. God knows what's going to happen. I mean it's it's something you already started people shipping hybrid seats into India and places. But I mean we're we're looking at a time and it's Yeah it's a serious situation so this part of getting people to take it seriously. I think it's quite important parts of it to persuade. Some people like the Millennium Seed Bank. And so and so you've got one one accession of Cannabis. I think it's Yeah they looked at a lot of different factors because she's changed so they they looked at not just morphology not just Chemical profiles but also genetics and when they looked at chemical profiles they focused on tacb ratios because concentration can be influenced by all sorts of factors. So that doesn't really make sense to focus on concentration but THC CBD ratios are more genetically controlled. So they focused on that. They also looked at Turpin Lloyd's which I thought was great And we'll talk more about that in a minute. But they notice patterns around How certain varieties seem to lack key Types of turpin turbines. That gives them their characteristic. Smells that people. Throughout you know Millennia have have noticed as cannabis has been evolving and changing That in certain areas of the world canvas seems to be more sweet in other areas of the world canvas seems to be more skunk. And you know Bets are things so they they kind of honed in on that But I'll kind of pass it off to you if you want to kind of explain The new tax And particularly also. I'm interested to hear how this has affected your work in collecting these land restraints. Because what I noticed. Was you immediately after this paper? Went Out Tried to provide clarity around your seed catalog to help. People understand what you're seeds would be classified as under the new model You know to the best of your ability which I thought was a very Very cool thing to do. I didn't notice any other companies doing that I still haven't noticed. Any other is actually doing it. And especially as quickly as implemented that change so you mind explaining what's changed and And what do people really need to take away from this? If they're really interested in trying to understand the differences in these varieties and the new names that they're gonNA see under website and that's sort of thing. Yeah I mean I've tried and myself Layman's way to apply that new formal Tax To what I've collected And it and it's tricky because the areas I've been to an a no well Such as Pakistan for example writes at the intersection of where Indika meat. So I mean just to just just to give the actual names The wild the wild type Central Asian populations the wild type of putative ancestral populations that cooling via aspirations and then the wild type South Asian populations calling him a Himalayan sis and the the meeting points of those two is more or less somewhere around the Kunar river which separates Afghanistan and Pakistan. Now in my experience up in the mountains in northern Pakistan. Most of what we've seen the volume lances. That's not to say there on the aspirin type that is in with the the eight. Lancia late stories is the term bland late leaves classics. That have indicate shapes. I'm sure they are up into trouble because I know other people have seen them up there. But what I experienced back in two thousand and seven when I was there in Pakistan. It made me very confused because I'm not a botanist. So what I was looking at this whole industry thing. It doesn't make sense to me but that's because I was in Pakistan whether these two types of plan meat so I was saying a lot of intermediate I was saying a lot of intermediate type domestic kits which she she seemed to be. Didn't seem to fit neatly into this. This collectible Indica Sativa thing and of course the reason for that is. This is basically a zone of maximum diversity for for sub-species Indika and a lot. I after a couple of years it dawned on me as much as Clark mentions in his work The domesticates hybrids between land races. In fact many land races probably most land races are hybrids between. Landrace is but what you have in some way like trial in in Yakking Valley. Which is the upper reaches of the river? I if you grow seeds from there you'll see a whole spectrum within one landrace as it were. You'll you'll see these big sativa type plants. You'll see these old indica-type plants with the classic indicated leaflets and this is going out one accession of seats. You understand so you village like patron gods in in your couldn't which is the famous Chiara's producing you take one batch of seeds from one former that you grow them out you'll see a whole range of variation and that's because these pay it to be hybrids between nine rices and you'll also see very very big for me too tall plants within the Qatari leaflets. And not being honest. I was baffled by this. Of course if I was a botanist I realized that what I'm looking at is Is is clearly a hybrid population and it but this is nothing new. If you look at the list of accession on the supplementary material for this new study you'll see that they were seeing these intermediate forms from accessions back in the nineteenth century and an even by was finding them so he collected plants in. What's now called Nuristan which is also just down just down if you if you follow the Kunar River from its source in your couldn't down through to trial into Afghanistan you get to this place Nuristan. Which was called Cafe Stan? And and in one of his accessions I think it was a domestic from nor stan was clearly an intermediate. is clearly a hybrid between an indicate domestic to domestic as you'd expect because this is the frontier between these two populations from Central Asia and South Asia. So yeah now now. It will make sense to me puzzled. And also the other thing I'd screwed up was I was relying too heavily. On April of by Bobby lobster counts of his own material and he and he's notoriously inconsistent and he changes his mind about things and he hedges on things. And you'll have one idea at one point and another another point but I assumed because he said in his forget if it's the nineteen twenty nine or the One thousand nine hundred twenty four account anyway in his earliest accounts of his expedition. He he says I hadn't seen these UPLANDS Lonzo late as an indika leaflets. Anywhere else in Afghanistan except for in the Kanawha Valley. Wed what he's growing cannabis now. He was wrong. Of course people probably would grind kind of around but he also growing in the his accessions from northern Afghanistan. When they were out by Sarah Cova they actually did show indica-type leafless so when I looked at his own tables and stuff in his paper he was he was saying all the only the only the only plants listed as having broad leaflets with the Chinese ones making length measurements for the Afghan Afghan. Landrace is the doesn't mention anything about the wisdom of the leafless and all the shape well he does mention something about the shape. He says he claims nothing else. Had these plans lately Nathan. Actually when when mccollum went and looked in the area He he In the Vale of Barium he found the Lo and behold that she did have the classic indicate leaflet shape. Just decide what we're talking about. The shapes small apartments have full Mo- system for establishing what an Indika leaflet shape and involves measuring the fan leaves as I called a at the base of the in fluorescence. You you look at the central leaflet and then you take a measurement of the whitest points of that leaflets and how far the on the leaflets. So they do a ratio basically. I six to one or something anyway. I'm anything involving numbers completely throws. Maye but they've got a formal basis for establishing Wasser. What the ratio is yeah? It's IT'S A. I got the paper here just to refresh my memory. It's the The link over the width is usually greater than six. So over six to one that ratio of Linked to with for a canvas not subspecies Indika yet. Anyway I mean it's it it's it's sort of I think a lot of people in the back of their mind when they when they were looking at smalls previous system where you just lump Indika Culture Jen's and sativa call to Jen's into this one subspecies indicate INDIKA. They also have a niggling which is the the arguments as well supposed interference. Indica Sativa as opposed domesticates. So the the the conservative only small original argument was that both domestic. It's so they're not meriting that married former classification varieties of their own. But I was thinking well this this leaflets shape that leaflet his surely not something that people of selected for its surely negative of natural selection of of something that's happened independent independence of humans. Now I mean 'cause there are many other traits of of sativa cult agendas and Indika Jensen clearly are the results of of Of Human selection such as Afghan has plants have these resin glands that very easily detach from the Braxton from the leaf. And that's clearly something that's been favored by centuries of sitting sitting hashish for example. I mean there's as many other aspects of it but clearly indicate human involvement. But anyway you know this is. This is finally solve the puzzle for me. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Mcparland had already Pointed out I think back in like two thousand eleven or something longtime ago now He pointed out that our vernacular needed to change in that. It would make more sense to call these things Afghanica. But now it's really getting into more formalized way where you can actually apply dichotomies key and identify these things. And then what we refer to as Sativa plants are now considered These this variety of Indika and then Between those we have the domesticated of versions of those and the quote unquote wild type versions of those so just to just to kind of make sure that we synthesize all that in case anyone listening has gotten confused at all the drug type varieties. You've got four varieties. The two main ones to pay attention to is what used to think of. As indika should be formerly called Cannabis Sativa subspecies Indika Variety Afghanica. And then what we normally talk about locally a sativa you should think of Cannabis Sativa subspecies Indika variety. Indika just stop you. Sorry but the crucial thing is. Is that this. This old applies only to authentic land. Races like yes. Yes yes yes. None of this applies to Indica Sativa. As as as you you buy the coffee shops the dime will you know in a in a dispensary in America because we'll Miss Sutton all of Hybrids if these two full varieties so this is only applying to Asian populations Yeah sorry to interrupt you piano very very very important. Point to note That's something I wanted to get into. Because in our first conversation we talked about how most of the cannabis that the majority of people in the world are exposed to Has such little diversity at all allusion of diversity and I was really pleased to see that may Portland and small called that out. And they explicitly talk about that All of this cannabis flooding around that. Yeah the work locally calling indicates a TV in the dispensaries usually that's only Defined off of You know the TCCB D ratio or someone. Subjective experience they list. I love that they list example of AK47 example of a strain that has won both the Sativa category and the indika category in Some of these competitions Be An excellent point. I mean anything anyone. Listening that Is getting cannabis from a dispensary and the hear people talk about indicates all of that is? I mean it's just noise really Because these plants have been hybridize so much. Especially because a prohibition You know has really driven that To a huge extent. Also just beyond prohibition just for hundreds thousands of years the way that humans have selected these plants we've lead ended up Harbored izing them to the point that there's no meaningful distinction between them when it comes to this level of formal categorization and everything The hope is an the that they do sort of Hedge on this in the paper. The hope is that there are still nine races out there and I might experience I think points to that still being authentic landrace as populations out there that do still merit full recognition and a representative of authentic domesticates. So that's another question and I interrupted you before you got to with the the uncessary putative ancestral of aspirin. Which is the virus Briamah? Which is the the wild type populations that say wild type because it way to solve head John? Weather as a truly operational indigenous still or whether that representative of the mixing between domestic and and aboriginal populations this aspiration the Himalayan says and the you know the the big question is the true aboriginal population still left. An small Portland are hopeful that they might they might be places in South Asia for example where you might still have the virus that hasn't been affected by exchange of pollen with domesticated populations. If there are probably somewhere way in the far northeast of India. I ruined shop. Asha somewhere but is far as the night doesn't have much of a history of cultivation as for Virus Burma the ancestral indika while type relations. I think it's pretty unlikely that you're going to find true. Aboriginal populations of an and the reason for this is the again. If you look at that Amazing Matt you see it going from the Tian Shan up on north of northwest China. Cutting down through the pioneers down through the Afghan Hindu Kush Where they have the accessions of this far pariah type plant all of those regions regions. Where that's been kind of cultivation for Millennia so the likelihood of That being true true aboriginal on a pure populations of Varas Roy Moore is pretty limited. The site goes for the For the Indian lab from Indian Kashmir down through a Macho and Khan pool all the way down through into secure minutes of Baton Pretty Much. All of those regions have hissed very long history of cultivation. Going back at least to and thousand years so the chance of that being a wild type plants the trudy aboriginal this is you know that hasn't happened yet. Exchanges of genetics with domesticates is very very small indeed. That sort of brings me to some criticism. What questions I have about some of that paper. But maybe we can leave that 'til later but just to say I mean I thought it might be worse kind of sort of zooming out a bit just because I know from my experiences is very difficult to conceptualize this rather to sort of understand. This will without contextualising it. So I mean this this whole process of the creation of south as it were. This goes back sort of fifty seven million years or so. When India wasn't even parts of Eurasia? It was drifting off the coast of Australia somewhere. And then it. It kind of floated in and smashed into Sumatra smashed into Burma and then eventually fifty seven million years ago or fifty million years ago actually smashed into Tibet. And then again this huge price of the Himalayas and the Tibetan plateau lifting then this this caused this radical change in the climates of Eurasia of Central Asia and resulted in the creation of a stat climate on the other side of the Himalayas in places. Like Ching Ching Hai which is northeastern Xinjiang. This this was what then caused I'm cannabis wished that this point exist to diverge from its nearest ancestor. Hillis that the hub. And so that. That's that's sort of put this in context and then when we're talking about humans humans didn't even exist at this point. We didn't come into the story until the very very very tiny fraction of it. He so so so so humans on even featuring this yet and so from from Shanghai. Which is it's once will amdo so north northeastern Tibet and this is A step climate. You've got created to from from that. Interestingly it appears that kind of this kind of headed off Westwood's I probably the seeds in the stomach birds migrating and this kind of thing. Anyway Phosphor would another forty million years six million or so years ago you find. Cannabis suddenly appears on the Western step over near Europe and it was considerably late to that eventually ended up in China proper. And I'M GONNA have to check my night six. I remember when it was but it first appears in China. Oh by the way just just to clarify. It was twenty seven point eight million years ago that kind of diverged from the hub. Yeah okay six point three million years ago. It's made it across to Europe as in Europe in the sense of the western step so it was kind of Ukraine Russia types at a very southern and southern Russia Barry and then a two point six million years ago when you I find it's in China proper in a Ningxia. So humid went by the time humans rock up into Eurasia sort of sixty thousand or one hundred thousand years ago six years ago kind of is across much of Eurasia except for Southeast Asia. But you know this again. Fits INTO PHILLIPS PICTURE? Cannabis was probably domesticated several different sites. Because it's certainly was available to be domesticated at different sites it across Eurasia. But yeah so that. Is it some sort of context but again when we're talking about actual domestication? That's even later still. This is what we're into the Holocene now kind of ten thousand years ago when it could even possibly have happened. But there's no evidence really happening until I mean you get to some fines from Japan about an if I can just switch to now because I find it hard to think in thousand years ago once we get into this so so the beginning of domestication of of food crops and stuff. We're talking ten thousand in the vans and stuff and similarly in China. But you don't see any kind of doesn't really get any indication that there's no evidence yet of being domesticated properly until sort of let me check but I think it's like in in in the in over in the sort of Towards Europe it's talking about kind of three thousand the issue that kind of point. That's that's that's some some domesticated pollen probably. It's with the young neier culture there. Sorry go back like twenty seven hundred. Bc I know is one number. Yeah where they a and I. I think it's been put. I'm sure it goes further back than that as far as what we have actual pretty good evidence for. Yeah we know we can go as far back as three thousand B C. Yeah it's Yeah you're right it's That's the fines in in young show in in China by which sort of Of the young shall culture sorry in China which they've got definitely clearly domesticated seats but even Nisus kind of tricky because That was suddenly. A condom hunter-gatherers themselves probably onto sleeping domesticating cannabis. Because of the type of to is. It was really well suited to that. 'cause the because it naturally grows on them kind of a nitrogen rich soils next to Rivers and stuff and that was it natural environment it tended to lights to grow so when people would have been hunting and drinking and stuff they probably would have picked up. Plants hunter-gatherers picked up plants and then transported them back to their camps where then would have found already favorable environment in kind of rubbish heaps in around you know where people were crapping and stuff so already have this unconscious Process of people bringing back the types of plants. They like to the Living Areas So one of the radiology findings from Japan of eight thousand BC. Interestingly the seats have no clear wild traits they appear to be partly domesticated. So you already this kind of likely to have this sort of unconscious domestication. And and that that traits of the sleeping domesticated goes with the seeds staying inside the employer. Essence is a which is nutty that process take centuries for A crop A wild plum that's being cultivated become a proper domesticated as an lose traits that process itself. Take Century. So yeah. I'm sure you're right. It actual domestication is likely to been happening a lot earlier than the actual evidence we have for it right. Yeah and and something I wanna you know point out to. Is this this whole idea of You know trying to figure out if there any Examples of true aboriginal cannabis. You know still in existence This is something that doesn't just affect cannabis. This is something that You know a mcpartlin. A small point out that this is an issue affecting All domesticated plants that. We have today that there are very few domesticated crops that we work with now that we can go and and see know a specimen of the true aboriginal type that would later be turn artificially selected into what we see now shifting gears just a little bit something I wanted to ask you about. I wanted to see if something at your experience with land races there so they they mentioned So we mentioned at the very beginning that one of the things that they examined were teens. Turpin Lloyd content and Organoleptic characteristics of these landrace varieties of cannabis and in the paper. They say that South Asian land is often smell or sweet whereas Central Asian land races. Give off an accurate or skunk aroma. And they're basing that off of some Robert Cox work in the in the eighties. Has that been your experience that that distinction is is that strong that if you find land races from South Asia they're going to be sweeter than those you find from Central Asia that that'd be skunk. I mean I know the you. We mentioned in our last conversation that cannabis grown in these different areas of Asia are used for different purposes and they have different organic traits and things that some you prefer to You know extract the resins and use separately whereas others like the Ganga of Fridays. That you know you would just roll up in smoke in the joints. And they'll be pleasurable and flavorful. So I wanted to ask you about that how that matches your experience. Well Yeah I. I was slightly concerned when I when I thought through earlier one of the states at the extent to which he just stunned a smoke Barth Gone Ika in the Afghan plans as but because I have friends who who cultivate these landrace as we've been getting from Afghanistan and Pakistan. Do Smoking that way and say it's very nice so I I don't have the accents which I've been any way so empirically investigated this stuff. Mostly what I'm doing connecting and talking to people and reading books and stuff. I'm not in a position to grow these plants myself. I rely on feedback from customers and stuff. So I'd say it's a it's a very haphazard of getting a picture of it but certainly the those particular toppings but alcohol set out alcohol. That's definitely something those skunk aromas are definitely something that in my experiences associated with central-asian when I say centralized being sort of as the Hindu Kush basically in my experience of the Hindu Kush is purely an to trial and then being in power and getting a Afghan and hashish from the Pakistani Hindu. Kush and stuff whilst I was there and being trump says friends of mine like Lucas. Eventually Aniston and other friends who work with who who who know the area have contacts in the area so I haven't sort of unlike Lucas is one of the people who collects for me. I haven't supports around in fields and stuff and smell the plants and things but yeah everything was saying in terms of what we've collected it. Fits that pattern? Absolutely the One thing that the The size a also a lot of what we were seeing. It doesn't pay we have. We've got pure Veronica's from from from the sessions that we got from the we will half a lot of what seem to be an Var into Kafka hybrids so the domestic. The Afghan sows cool. Mazaar-i-sharif will Missouri Obamacare It appears to be a very large blunt in which A one extreme variation on the website has can have very Sativa tight knit flights and be very tall and other other extreme from the same accession you can have extremely Indyk type. Arsenic appliance. So an how exactly the Var Indika Genetics or even. Maybe not. Maybe they're maybe this inferences from hemp cultivation in his stan hyper diced know. We don't we don't know yet but this is another question in my mind about the The patent they paint with the Forest Brian and volume length system this reproductive barrier between the two of them It's clearly made that case for that with the accessions but I wonder to what extent what extent is. It's the case that it seems to me. The violence is can survive the on that northern extent. There's some indication of that in in the accessions they've vandalized but you know it's The question is can aspirin paraina so across south southwards. A bet one example from From Kulu valley which suggests that it can but I wonder where can I mentioned about secularity? So what extent I don't know what I wonder is can the see what you might have is tip plasticity. So you know this. Genetic forest rations as they sort of moved on was into India. Perhaps they just themselves differently. I excite expressed themselves in a more lance. This way I mean that seems to you. What's happened when you when people have introduced hybrid genetics into into Milan or in the modern era? Is they end up to the planning? And and with with its. I don't want to understand what how much of a bad thing that is the diversity but the fina typically. They expressed themselves in a in a way that's appropriate to the to the climate. But I like wrestling. What you're asking me you just touched on something that In the paper they talk about and in in my book I mentioned. But just how quickly cannabis plant no matter how domesticated it may be? How quickly can naturalise to whatever location? It's in and start to exhibit While type traits which makes all of this work that much more complicated but Within forty and fifty generations of of cannabis plant. You can have it. Dramatically changed. How expressing itself going going in one direction that we know that from a domestic to Awadh Site Sina Type Right. How long it takes to go from a wild type phenotype to a domestic. Because I have. She's but but yeah it's it's very I mean I've seen For example someone Who who who put some of the Lebanese we got from Bekaa Valley which incidentally is definitely a place. Lebanon where you've had a lot of hybridization going on quite possibly between a Hem and between Veronica I'm between for Africa speaking to people in Spike into a in Lebanon who site that was definitely a particular individual they can name names. Who bought Afghans seats to Lebanon in the Seventy S Similarly another friend of mine talks about bringing 'em balcony genetics. From stone to to the Pakistani indie Kushner seventies and knows the names but anyway so these are definitely high hybrid since at least the thirteenth century had hybridization between land races and we. I- customer growing out Lebanese a very humid environment Against my voice but anyway with growing out an exhibit CDs extremely narrow makes sense. Yeah Yeah and Whereas other people in new riding them in sorts of places like southern Spain in a very dry climate and up in the mountains expressing these much more sort of Afghanistan's leaflets. So instantaneous KENO typic- plasticity A. It's what you'd expect from a plan that's evolved high up in the mountains where you have these extremely changeable climates Yeah exactly and and to anyone listening in case we haven't made it super clear because there's a lot of things sometimes. We have in our minds that might not quite catch onto that that climatic difference the reason it's going to influence the not just leave structure below also like node links and that sort of thing that if you're in a very humid environment the plant needs to breathe so that it doesn't get moldy and you know get attacked by a fungal pathogens and that sort of thing whereas in drier climates plants can afford to be more dense much more leaf tissue and everything Because they don't have that selective pressure against them the May like so slow transpiration rates and yes things an and the Yes or no no. Yeah I just wanted to make sure that was clear. 'cause we mentioned several times about varieties moving into like the monsoon areas. All these different things. I just WanNa make sure that anybody listening. In case they hadn't quite piece that together yet that they understand why the morphology is going to be affected by those climates. And and what you just talked about about You know These varieties being moved around. I I thought it was really cool. How the paper in one paragraph talks about I mean it's cool in a academic intellectual sense. It's devastating and another level but Talking about how People would brag about how they brought the example. I'm looking here. Is They brought Mexican gold into Afghanistan in the early seventies and how they What was the other one that they were bringing central? Asian Land Races and South Asia In the seventies in Nepal in the eighties and Jamaica and Thailand and This It's it's interesting. How OUR PERSPECTIVES? Change the bore. We learned that at one time that seemed like a really awesome exciting thing to do taking land races from one place and bringing them to another place and seeing what they do together and now we're looking at that band like. Oh Jeez what have we done? You know. Sort of thing of You know we've we've so heavily contaminated These gene pools with other land races. And I think that's something that Sometimes people that aren't in so involved in in all this work It can sometimes be harder to appreciate because someone might think like well. He take to land races together. Like you know you've got these interesting genetics and you'll get something else interesting So I could see why in the seventies with the understanding that we had at the time That was exciting But now looking back and seeing these things Mexican Gold Panama read all these other strains that were so popular in the sixties and seventies that thing got cross bred in Afghanistan these critical regions. I mean the thing I'd say with the Afghan one is the only reliable source. They quote that a rival that buys learn. His name is the guy who claims he did it. Pietri the one who they quotes is also talking about. I'm sure it's just a guy who'd read that book. He's not he's not as anecdotally from what hold is is not a reliable character but then the The An Italian guy who also talks about it. But I don't know what I don't want. The Italian academic was basing his opinions on it. I mean th the reason I say that is because since nineteen seventy-nine. There's no way it's highly highly unlikely people being bringing that type of plant into Afghanistan because it's just it's more being off limits so in a sense that the disaster that's happened in from from minded perspective is a good thing to cannabis because it's sort of kept it away from not type of phenomenon put. Yeah I mean what I've seen in the pool. A one session we got from that From a a hashish producer. Who Wish it it it it it. I wouldn't say shows any obvious. Signs of Afghan contamination sons of. It doesn't have toppings or anything like that but it does have mockingly large Meves but yeah I I. My my sense is that there's still a substantial zones of central and South Asia and even Southeast Asia where it's still possible to get pure land racism and small apartments instead of at the end. They say optimistic that we hope that is the case and I. I hope they right in my experience suggests that right but of course I'm I'm I'm judging from unseated perspective and also have a financial incentive to solve presents it that way obviously. I'm biased toward bias towards presenting it in that perspective but honestly I would say this dispassionately as I can. My my sense is they are. There are still populations unaffected. And of course they're all away from the the places where I go and also just a continued thought Laos which is very efficient sense required chief economist of Philander races that I'm was off limits for a substantial period of nineteen seventy five until the late nineties. It didn't really start and up to tourism although I have spoken to one smuggler from the sort of ties stick day. Who says the Frank did introduce Hyper genetics into central Laos at one point for a commercial great but my my sense is from having lifted up because I lived that for four or five years. I didn't see any obvious. Signs of of foreign hybrids at nothing struck me as being very obviously contaminated by them. Everything I was seeing An the way the economy itself sort of worked with the commercial. Christ it it it was. It's very isolated by and large from from the type of person. He's going to do that. It's not to say that people have NGO workers and stuff who who lived that and people who have managed to get into the tourism ministry. I know that people were did bring hybrid stuff into grow gardens and things because you can get away with it in house and you can do it within the law now. They liberalized that you can have six garden now. It doesn't matter because no one gives it possible it's it's a yeah that allow friends of mine would talk about. Saf rang. You saw wrong is like a foreign. Sorry I'm western Western. Ganga people even knew about what it is but it doesn't do very well let because it's just a particularly bad climate for if anything that's got remotely sort of Genetics gets absolutely savaged. Whereas you know the the local land rises they've put lit up to to being grown there. So if you're a commercial grow why would you want to screw up with that kind of stuff if you can rate if you can grab a failed of the local landrace But Yeah I mean I'm I'm an optimist insofar as I think is possible within the next couple of years at least Representatives original land races. An landrace is that may have also been affected some degree but the still was collecting. Absolutely I mean I think that's an important takeaway from all of this. Is that even if we have trouble finding uncontaminated You know sources of some of these land races what does exist. In whatever level of contamination it exists is still worth preserving still worth collecting because of the contamination issue is going to just continue and get worse and worse and worse. Hybridization is going to continue and whatever can be captured now regardless is important but to begin to Rap Conversation because I think that's a a really good Segue how is this research going to affect the real seed company going forward? Is it going to affect Areas that you target Varieties that you target any of that. How how does all of this information affect the way you're thinking about the company Yeah I mean it's always in my mind I'm sort of wondering myself where makes sense to guy next Everything Woods other other people who are actually from these places during the collecting as much as I can say that. I'm I'm not flying around so much dumping tons of carbon in the time an was I not having to do this. Huge sort slugs across the months at a time which is awesome in many ways huge privilege but also extremely hot. What makes it quite difficult to to to to do at the same time anyway? I saw there are areas that I don't know anyone in the ams thinking flexing on parts of the Nepali layer and parts of northeast India that I'd like to have more of and also we were hoping earlier this year to to collect across parts of India itself southern India the covid nineteen thing happened and completely up but but but many of these some traditional Indian gadget domestic. It's a very important in In India is more linked into Internet commerce so this more MO- hybrid genetics. Going in the You know the chances of finding a finding the real thing is getting lower and lower focus there and wild type plant from northeast India or a a a something. I'm particularly keen to get hold of and generally we're moving more towards collecting a while. Type seats It was something that was always of interest that was sort of financial incentive to it but I think as sort of level of understanding amongst aficionados a significant increase than what will get more of those and I'm also keen to get hold of Southeast Asian Hemp Land Racism. Hoping Friends of mine can help me get hold of them and basically everywhere interest but I would like to Gawk in Central Asia because I haven't been to Tajikistan an isis which a hugely important I just have no idea to what extent it's feasible to collect seats there. I have no idea what the law is on that kind of thing so I don't know anyone married that's another hugely consequential place A as as this study has demonstrated for ancestral indika populations. I wish I could go to Xinjiang. But that's not happening. Complete Disaster Zayn I know well and that's another part of this puzzle to is. You've got this. These other dynamics at play. It's not like you can just wander in and collect seeds from plants. You've there are. There are all sorts of conflicts going on and economic devastation. All sorts of really really hard things that that affect this work something. I really appreciated On your social media that I wanted to give you a chance to briefly talk about is how the real sea company is working to try to support some of the locals. Um that are in some of the areas that That you've been sourcing seed from that. You know before the podcast started. We're talking about how Covid nineteen stuff obviously defecting every body but The media is not really shining much attention on a lot of these communities that are Really getting hit hard by this. That don't have the resources that a lot of Countries might have or a lot of the Privilege that a lot of the places have To you know so anyway. I know that you've been doing food. Drops or helping With supporting some of these food drops that have been happening in some of the local villages and other places where some of your work touches said. You might speaking a little bit to that. And if there's any way that any listeners can Offer their own support. Help support some of these families That are being affected Economically or you know sick or don't have access to food. You know all these sort of things That are very much connected to all of this work and the cannabis plant Let them know how they can get involved with that? Well yes sure I mean this was something. I'm conscious of in terms of collecting the seats. Because you could. If you have Ryan Facet of portray what I'm doing is the former colonial plunder in some ways because I'm going and taking from these places and make money out of it and I was always of that so I wanted to find ways to get money back to people who actually from these communities so one way I've done is just to actually get them to do the collecting and to give them a generous percentage of the retail price of what of what we sell the seeds but another another way. I have friends in money at these prices. Been visiting you know many years Who Work in NGO outfits who all just individuals who want to help that community so in the case of trial for example that was From the one thousand nine hundred eighty three to the seventies was a major center of hashish production in the Hindu Kush after Xinjiang shutdown but then in nineteen seventy nine ish I believe it was The Pakistani government suddenly became bryce strict about production in that particular area and started to very heavily. Enforce prohibition relative to how much had done before and what was promised that atrocities that up in your Kernan places that they would provide them with an alternative source of income which you know they never actually sort of make good on that promise so this is left communities that would otherwise have been making money out of commercial production in a pretty bad situation essentially what you have now is that must most families get half the main source of income from that Kids walking down in the cities like the shower and his about Nelson. They'll send money home when they have it. But of course with the lockdown them and a lot of people have lost their there. And so you actually do have the poor families up into a small scale subsistence farmers. So they're in a very precarious situation just in terms of having enough food to get through the crisis. So yeah I have friends. I'm in many years I've been sending You know to help them to food drops to families and I want to people and instagram. If they wanted to contribute site if people are interested they can email me or or follow instagram at the real sea company. And and I just dropped me dark message and I'll send them away to the they can send money to me because I know a lot of people are nervous about sending money to Pakistan or don't wants to have to pay for the transfer fees or nonsense of money Graham where you have to provide all your passport details and stuff so they can just pay POW me money. Basically and I'll send it to my friend and he'll he'll do the food drops he's been sending me lots of photos of him hauling bags of rice to families and stuff and I it is genuinely Radi I can. I can tell you sincerely appreciated by people that extremely grateful for an 'cause I need it. It's not just a yen. It puts things into perspective. I think for people that live in places like the United States or the UK or any of these. You know more wealthy areas. That you know I I look around and I see people here in the United States complaining about what's going on with stay at home orders. And all these things they they act as if they're so negatively affected and in some ways sure they are. I mean they're mental health problems all sorts of other things with people having to be stuck at home with job insecurity and everything. But the people that we're talking about right now are experiencing a totally other level of challenge With this issue I think hope my hope ensuring the story and and I'm going to be talking about this more my own instagram. Try to get people pointed towards us. I hope that it helps people. Kinda stop a little bit and think about what they're complaining about and what their actual situation is in life compared to to others around the world because we get so caught up in our narrow tunnel vision of of a life that sometimes we forget that you know when stuff like this happens. I mean there are people that literally have no food like like we can still if we need to go to a grocery store and get food. Yeah we've gotta wear masks and do all these different things and take precautions but we're still able to get food There are places in the world that don't have that luxury And so bringing attention to that is something I I feel very I don't know very led to do think it's a very important thing and I really appreciate the fact that you're trying to do that work. Oh Yeah I mean it's a it's a nation but it it feels good to be. It's a privilege and a way to be able to help people in feels good to see how it for me. It will fit into the bigger picture in which these These communities these margin FRY marginalized rural communities. The communities have kept these laundries going straight. For prohibition despite the efforts of the Pakistani government to wipeout cultivation in young people still did grow grow in between them as crops. They grew up in the mountains they did. They did maintain these land races. That the people who've who've kept these ancient highly diverse populations going this time. They're the people who growing the plants that all I'm wooden hybrids based upon us daily. Once once we return to normality and put an end to prohibition which is happening it's happening in the poll and it's slowly happening entitled these. These communities will benefit once again from from cannabis in the way that they should have been a lifeline to them. Through prohibition but of in many cases forced the plan up into these more obscure places in some in some cases it just going in these places like roper and recommend balcon and so on but anyway I these these people if anyone deserves to have fair cuts out of the the money to be made from cannabis off people who should be getting it it as a natural justice to to try and some of the benefit back towards is people's yes I mean and the such an important thing that I've been thinking more and more about lately is Social Equity Piece. You know how you have. People that have been doing. The work for long periods of time to ensure that cannabis has gotten to where it is now and so. How do you ensure that those people that really deserve to profit off of an economy that includes cannabis? How do you ensure they actually get in on on that? And you know in the United States. The one of the big problems with legalisation. That's happened here. Is You look at the prisons. And you look at the. You know who's been jailed for cannabis over the years in the United States and There aren't I mean there are by nonprofits and stuff their efforts but there isn't a strong voice in the federal government yet about trying to release these people from prison or expunged records ensure that they're able to actually participate in the economy that they've actually contributed to supporting to get it to this point. You know so far and you also see that that predominantly affects people of Color Just the way that racism has also affected the application of cannabis laws And so this the social equity piece I think is really important anyone listening. I think it's something that we really need to start thinking about and talking about a lot more because these dominoes are gonNA fall fast when they do. Legalization is happening all over the world and as its as it happens one place. More PLACES. Viewed as an acceptable thing to do and there's influence happening Especially when you see the money involved in everything So we're going through this massive change and we run the risk of really you know to put it very bluntly really screwing over the people that deserve to really benefit the most from this that have been suffering in various ways or taking enormous risks to get things to where they are now so Yeah a lot of lot of pieces to this but even beyond just the humanitarian side the social equity piece of of what you're trying to do to ensure that these people are able to be active participants in the economy and and begin to benefit the way that they deserve is is excellent so Thanks for that and hopefully anyone listening will really take that to heart and think more carefully about about that dynamic can just because I I know you wanting to join us but just a second I think with with land races that there is potential for T to find a solution to what you're talking about which is the something akin to what they have in the EU with the Appalachian Control this Which applied to various types of liquor and cheese all kinds of things? I'm essentially for example First Class NAPOLETANO hashish It cannot be people that the real thing. If it's produced with the real landrace from saybrook somewhere in in recommen- roper so you know it's essentially a combination of the t the terroir damn timing and the plant itself the landrace itself so the way. I see that that that should be a solution that there is a potential solution to to safeguard these communities rights to these plants and these products A means of in any way sort of suggest. There isn't huge room for improvement of these land races and that you can have of in in Nepal which is incidentally is as far as the Sunday has already legalized everything. So you could have projects in some way like rookie. Moroka where you have One branch of it is I am the maintaining the land rice in its in. Its full Other isn't actually improving. The landrace inbreeding in stabilising Sutton Carts heuristic and producing a plant. That can compete with the best modern hybrids in in in whatever carts ristic's you want and you can ensure these these products authentic a another interest minus is t and. I lived in Taiwan for many years and From what I know of what they're doing in the TR tsn these various Taiwanese State funded state run projects that talking about using stuff like What's Crypto cryptocurrencies? Yeah but not the currencies but the actual sort of the blockchain technology. And that's it yeah. I don't I read a few studies about it and I had friends who were discussing it but a real problem they have in some way like Taiwan is that they have had this fantastic tyrod. Amazing cultivars us to have incredibly high quality tea produced in the mountains. That but the problem is that they're also having the market flooded by Vietnamese tea which can be surprising. Vietnamese illness And but it's very difficult for Taiwanese owned companies markets and know if you're getting the real single but that talking about using blockchain technologies and and this kind of thing to ensure that the supply it you know they they know that this is the real the real deal basically right. Yvonne Basically have like a validated ledger to work with so that. There's yeah yeah exactly. Yeah so this is these are things up pondering about I mean. I'm I'm at living but that to me. Seems like a a route ahead and there must be some kind of way that you can use this. This type of scenario describes to ensure the only Real Nepali cherishes is is sold as Nepali Taras and and the same the same the same communities in Humboldt communities in New York state and and so on have been hit very hard by prohibition in an minutes and not being served well by legalization that you can use this kind of terroir control type system to ensure the fantasy and sort of economic justice redressing the wrongs of probation. So exactly yeah I know that I know that I think it's Medicinal genomics uses Blockchain technology to Handle the ledgers involved with the Genetic sequencing but they do cannabis plants to try to Basically ensure that like once they've analyze something and assigned it a unique. Id obviously the New Orleans strain names or anything. They have these just very confusing to series of letters and numbers that is like the unique code for that sample of genetics and that as that moves around databases or whatever they can Use blockchain technology to ensure the integrity of that and it's a way of ensuring that basically third party can't come in and manipulate things in some way That within You know sabotage the efforts of breeders and that sort of thing so I agree with you and I think that blockchain technology the way you're talking about using it I think it's going to spread throughout Agriculture and nursery plants in general. Because this is something that it affects roses. It affects grapes. You know all these different things that you need to be able to As a as a breeder able to protect yourself if you're introducing an new genetics and their traditionally have been these registries For nursery plants and crops. And things like that but like it just pointed out. They can be manipulated. They can be fudged by other parties. That's worth they're not necessarily totally protected. They're sort of a trust placed into them But integrating things like blockchain. Technology can eliminate the need trust altogether. You just know based on the way that it's designed and the way structure That everything is is safe from Manipulation and that the the information being shared is traceable in true. I want some Portland and smooth. What do I see him? It's going to be the next Study in a nice start looking at the contemporary accessions. Perhaps that combined with the genetic analysis and stuff can actually prove that are authentic. And what's what's not what has been hybridize with hybrids. Hasn't it's going to be very complicated because as as we free touched on many land races hybrids of land racist probably all land rights as a heart's races. But some some going you know some as with like low anti cancer plants hybrids happened many hundreds of years ago summer rates since the seventies late Lebanese landrace in Bekaa Valley. But I mean it'll be tricky and as far beyond my so ken but I imagine if they can do that and establish what's what's what's authentic and what's not an and you can. You can combine that with all these other ways of ensuring los anticipate. I think that's what I'm looking for now. I think that's why more people are getting interested in Landrace. This is because we're all looking for anticipate these days and is distinctly lacking in so many places you know and that's true on just like a philosophical level we are. We're at the stage where we're so tired of artificiality and are looking for authenticity. In so so many levels An cannabis is definitely one of those Well before we totally sign off. I want to give you a moment. If there's anything we haven't touched on that you wanted to to make sure to highlight or if not And just go ahead and let folks know how to learn more about the real seed company. You know you've got your blog Assume that anyone listening to this has heard our first interview so You know you've got the real sea company also got exceeds You've got your Log reshare a lot of your thoughts on on these issues whereas as well as linking to conversations like this that we have So I'll just kinda hand over the platform to you. If there's anything related anything we've talked about that. You feel like gap we need to touch on. We can do that Otherwise we'll go ahead and wrap things up and let people know how to Support you and find you. Yes sorry that was a that was a real delay on the line just there. I'm sure you can fix it all in the ad. But yeah yeah there. It sort of specific aspects of some of the supplementary material of this study that that I'm still pondering that I briefly mentioned like the the question of exactly how old or need the classic Guanzhou Landrace is It's maybe it's just a pus. An obsession of mine. I have I think they. They misrepresents some of the studies that they've used suggesting that John Racist Go back to the thirteenth century. I if you look at the the academic moyle impelled. I think his name is I've I've managed to find the papers and I think they've just misread what he said. He says there's not much evidence for that. Basically you don't see the the name Gangetic until the sixteenth century. Really done Gica about things but dating these texts. He's talking about is notoriously difficult so yet but my my theory is the creation of these types of high potency high. Thc South Asian landrace is something that really was catalyzed by the introduction of tobacco in the practice of smoking them with tobacco you to have kind of smoking oversee going way back at least to it to two and half years at least and you have pipes for smoking in that. They've found in Africa because smoking pipes goes way way back in Africa as well. We'll the pipes and stuff. It's it's extremely old. But they've found cannabis smoked in pipes in Africa in the sort of I think. It's the Thirteen tree ish kind of era. So and how far back do you like kilims? Go and that sort of thing I mean. That's I mean it's it's it's one of those things rather like the diffusion of cannabis in and those sort of Talking many flair hybridization of land racist. It's extremely hot. What's going on what action what's coming from? Where is it backwards and forwards? It's all my son. He Bites be likely to be a highly complicated picture of in both directions but My my theory is that that's a Tobacco was the key factor in in in in India that drove the selection pregnancy. Because if you look at say Garcia Portuguese Sephardic Jew he. He was in power in the in in the early fifteen hundreds. He doesn't talk about Ganji at all. You'd think if there was gadget that he would have at least picks up on him and he was a botanist. He just talks he talks about Bong and likewise you thank you. Don't see this time. Ganj until at least the sixteenth century. It doesn't really seem to get going until much later than that. That's a that's a guy called Thomas. Bowery who was a British much who was he was trading across the bad thing goal between Sumatra and India and he knew the commodities that are extremely well and he's a very reliable source. If you if you read all his stuff he seems to be on the money with pretty much. Everything and he He he he says the in India in sixteen seventy what they grew in India was among and he's very clear that bang is a different plant from Ganj. And that sort of fits with my understanding of this would be is Bong itself as as a word people keep saying. It's a Hindi word. It is a Hindi. Would it's in Hindi but it goes back to sort of five hundred BC Iranian middle middle. Tajuddin they quit but it's a very very old wet. It can apply to deteriorate to hand vein to kind of this if you're like okay. If you're looking at early Indian texts like the atop of Ada may volume there. And of course everyone likes to think that's Kinda and may maybe it's kind of this but we don't know for sure it could be any number of plants and I keep getting distracted onto different points but the points might of Pitcher I is is. The long is suddenly in India as in cannabis as sort of a central Asian type way of using cannabis is already in India suddenly by the eleventh century. It starts this time bang starts to appear in medical tax not kind of thing and this Guy Morel impelled who McCartan small refer to. He's clear that Eleventh Century Really Thirteenth Century as a sort of points at which you can say. Yes if they're talking about buying in this tax talking about cannabis I it's clear by that. Point is a thing in India. You see them early. Muslims in the eleventh century. Sort of talk about may be Fumigation. Type use of cannabis in temples based on you talk about using it to get stoned but you don't really have a definitively talking about buying until the thirteenth century which we discussed in the previous podcast. Was this very important. Point whichever explosion of Central Asia of hashish hush she sieving technique goes across into the Middle East. Suddenly you kind of is everywhere. People are getting stoned everywhere. All across North Africa and seems to be a right crucial points in India as well. And it's an alternate Muslim cultures establishing itself in India so Indians certain types of is going to hate me for this because it's basically sort of suggesting that the Muslims introduced cannabis to India with it the the ads for actually bowery. This guy in the late seventeenth century is saying all you have in India as equals accrued type of plant with large leaves. That's Bong whereas Ganges school coming from Sumatra in a place called at j just a very significant place on the northwest tip of Sumatra which was sort of trading point very prosperous in places like What's now bowed here and Thailand? And sort of linking through the bengals fruits. And what's now Calcutta the mountain west coast and you know a major trade rate but he barry's Klay saying Jonjo was coming from Sumatra. All they had in in India was bang. Bang was very cheap product. That Guanzhou was much sought after the Sumatran Gun. You said it was much addicting. Wien Ary as in people with smoking a bit and having a night on the town and anyway it was. It was much more expensive. It was much more expensive products at so many multiples of the price of bank. So my hunch is we should pay attention to what Barry says is properly answer because he should know I mean this guy was he was. That's make money. He was trading. He knew what the products were because he was. He was taking advantage of the disparities in spices and this prices of Isis type of stuff to make living and he was based out there for a long long time. Now it's not to say the Indians didn't develop under it. 'cause Indians were based in that show and they were probably growing. It is possible that they sort of May well be united. The earliest sort of censor of creation of these things was actually at this practice of selecting for potentcy and and creating what we now think of a you know this seedless product and that links with what you were saying about the Aromas of these types of South Asian nine races now. Lamar himself not noted that they smelled like tobacco. Now that's the case with Janin's Guanzhou has this very tobacco. We kind of aroma as loud and certain types of tie have this. Quite tobacco splendid fruity scents. And when it's pretty good it's sweeter but of course that's sweet sativa characteristics. That's something that's going to require. A lot of selective pressure as with good t and not type stuff very high levels of the amino acids and stuff that are responsible that type of thing as far as I understand it. Now that may well be a sign up deterioration of quality since the seventies. So I haven't I have seen it in good tien stuff. It's well I mostly seen of herbal aromas tobacco types of tobacco a romance. The you tend to find in sprint tropical Ganga but it was something that was blended with tobacco very early on and smoked and I think that highly addictive kind of combination of tobacco and Cavanaugh. It's is what really catalyzed this to become a commodity that was traded for from in from Central Asia into India and from Southeast Asia across to India and so on the demand for because it's around the same time that Barry was ready tobacco established itself as a crop in India. And it's that same time that the becks and actually probably Tajiks were were first recorded as as as introducing into Iran this practice of smoking with tobacco interesting. Wow Yeah so all comes down to splits. Yeah yes populism children's and bungs and everyone everyone in might sprints in all these parts they all smoking tobacco everyone. Does this very very seldom you meet someone who smokes pier and I like to smoke here when people see you smoke. Bloody how you want to smoke at are going to get too high. You know they they Everyone likes smoking with tobacco. You know. It's very addictive combination fascinating. Yeah that's something that personally. I've I've never really enjoyed the tobacco addition Sometimes it can. Yeah just really not not sit well with me. I can't do dissonance. I don't WanNA smoke something. I'm GONNA have to worry that it's going to give me cancer. Just what's the point anyway? Right yeah I know yeah I mean yeah sometimes it will mean depending on which this funny because sometimes I do smoke cigars. I like tobacco cigars. Usually a few times a few times a year but So I can handle tobacco for some reason. That mixture with cannabis is so prone to giving me the spins. And I don't know it's something that I just I'm like I don't don't mess with that. But agreement it. I think it's thirty eight thirty so of feeling you get from as well it just it it it. It takes the edge off the bus as well. I think it. Yeah and particularly you know. A lot of Indian show for example. Isn't always that potent it? That's again that's another whole issue. The the type of use of traditional use in in India is some is a tonic. It some good books on this people weren't necessarily smoking to get high. They were smoking to take the edge off very hard labor difficult lifestyles like being a wandering ascetic. Neither enough saying they weren't necessarily looking to to get wasted. They were actually looking to make life a bit easier. So that's another hell compensation and the Super Super Fascinating. All these cultural differences between how people relate to canvas so so fascinating. I love every time we get together and talk always so fascinating because I can always trust that. Our conversations are going to go in directions. I don't expect but that are super super fascinating So that's just another another one of those mis a pleasure to be able to sort of run for especially after having read. Read these papers because my mind is full of ideas and unfortunately Mike listen to me talking about it. Sometimes there's limits she can talk to talk about. It was only what she understands. What I'm talking about on Rudy appreciates it is is is a privilege. It's really good fun. Yeah and definitely. I've I've really enjoyed it and if You know as usual. The invitation has always out there if anything. Pops in your mind That we didn't go into that. You want to dive into later. don't hesitate to. Lemiux always enjoy our conversations and our listeners seemed to enjoy him or are less interviews. One of the most popular it is the most popular episode That we've done Yeah it's it was actually really cool on YouTube Someone commented and they said I I was. I was really humbled by this. They said just like The landrace strains that need to be collected and preserved conversations between these two people need to be collected and preserved. It was Super Super Nice. I really appreciate it so anyway. I need to wrap this up and go on but it was a really good pleasure connecting with you again As always and I'm sure we'll have more talk about soon and I know just like we've alluded to I know mcparland and small have more up their sleeves. They'RE GONNA be coming down the pipeline and the next if not really soon within the next few years. I'm sure we'll see More elaborations on the scheme and I. It's funny Our first interview. I asked you if you had to pick the tax if you had pick a Texan article model to go with even though we know that none of them are good enough. Which one would you choose and you said well how really like small and Cronquist and the way that they Handled things and so. It's so funny that jump forward you know from the seventies from when small cronquist I You know published Their papers on that. You know you jump ahead to twenty twenty and we've got mcparland small coming together and you know. Essentially taking what they had started and just elaborating it into a more cohesive scheme based on on what we know now so Seems like we were on the right track so anyway for everyone listening or Wa are watching the audio gramma. This on Youtube Thanks so much for for tuning in with us. I'm sure we'll have more share with you soon. but if you WANNA learn more about the real seat company go to the real seat company DOT COM Also a quick seeds dot com K. W. I k. seeds DOT COM Find that we've got the story behind that name I think in the last episode but you can find angus there. It's got great content and you know there are a lot of see providers out there but I don't I don't know if I've ever told the story about how you and I connected which might be kind of worth while to throw in here at the very end but the way that Amazon I got connected was I posted online. A timeline of cannabis taxonomy that I was using for Some of my Seminars and stuff and does a bit in there about Some of the work that Vavilov particularly had done and You commented on there and you're like I don't I don't know if this is quite right and we got into this Very civilized discussion. About our disagreements about trying to understand what was going on with taxonomy here which then led to well. Do you WanNa come on the podcast. And we'll just talk about it and it just it was A. I don't know it's it's really nice when you meet somebody that can Disagree or criticize in a In a very respectful and professional way and and then that led me to look into the real company. And all of the work that you do and I just I continue to be impressed by your dedication to try to get the facts right. Try to understand what we know. Share it with people. And when something's wrong you don't hesitate to say. Hey I was wrong about this or I made changes to this I said this at this time. But now I think this That's unfortunately a rare trait and a lot of a lot of folks these days. But it's something that I Really really appreciate. And that's that's how came together. And how these these discussions got started so let us cool to to share that and I appreciate you being one. They give up so much of your time. I said this wouldn't be a three hour interview but here we are at two hours. Forty minutes So collectively we've got five hours of content just just between you and me talking but I really appreciate you being willing to carve out the time and do this again. It's it's been awesome. Well thanks so much Jason. Thanks awesome all right. Everybody if you WANNA learn more about curious about canvas as usual it can go to see a sea. Podcast DOT com also as an aside on a win. This will come out but I am working on finishing up the second edition of about cannabis book. This paper is large reason of why? I have not released the second edition yet because I got it. Pretty much ready to go and then this paper dropped. I was like well now. I have to rewrite my whole chapter on taxonomy to include all of this and there's so much good info here so That has been delayed. But it's still coming so probably by a late summer or early fall The second edition of that book will Will hit shelves so be on the lookout for that? And if you want to support the work that I'm doing with these conversations and and some of the candidates education work that I'm doing at large Please head on over to Patriotdepot DOT com slash curious about cannabis and you can become a a member a patron and basically on that platform. I try to release episodes as quickly as I get them. Edited so that patrons get access. There's also bits and pieces of conversations that don't always make it in the final episodes and I Sometimes we'll package those up and released those two members to thank you for the support and there's other ways. I'm trying to figure out ways to to thank everyone. That's been supporting the work that I've been doing so far. So thanks thank star patrons and if you're interested in that check that out. Otherwise find curious about cannabis on social media on facebook instagram twitter or YouTube. And with that. Thanks so much for tuning in and I'll catch you next time. Take it easy and stay curious. Bye-bye you want to learn more about canvas? You can check out the curious about this book available now on Amazon Dot Com and other online. The curious about canvas podcast is presented by natural learning enterprises a science education company dedicated to the enhancement of public scientific literacy through education about the natural world. Curious about cannabis is just one of several learning initiatives produced by natural learning enterprises to learn more go to www dot natural learning enterprises dot com or connect with me on facebook instagram or twitter.