Frontlines Episode 26 The Next Generation of Latino-American Church Planters
Whoa hey hey exponential. Welcome to frontlines are biweekly podcasts. Video casts where we have conversations about the current issues that are facing pastors and church planters. And really what we wanna do. Every other week is to really get on the ground and talk about some of the most pertinent things that affect you your ministry leadership development multiplication church. Planning all of those things but also we want to talk about the big things that are shaping the way that we think about like leadership development and how we're gonna do mission church planting in the future and so all of that stuff is on the table we get to talk about all of that. every Every other week we have a very special guest that Our co peyton jones. And i we get to interview in really pick their brain and this week. I'm really excited to introduce our our guests. And i would say that for just a little bit later but Our topic for today is man. It's one that is one of the biggest really things. I think that people know that hispanic and latino american church planning leaders have been at the forefront of church planting for the last several decades. We released a research report two years ago. Through the senate institute that really showed us the quantitative data that latino american church planters are actually planting effective evangelistic churches with less amounts of funding compared to the to the mainstream and that brings up a lot of different feelings number one. We celebrate that work. Can we celebrate. What god is doing that but it also leads to a lot of questions about how do we then Getting better situations where we can fully fund and really come underneath those who are effectively reaching the loss through church planting so that is a big part of the What will discuss today. If your church planning organization you're a church. isn't yet thinking about how to raise up into come underneath income beside and underscore the work of a latino americans in ministry in general but specifically in church planting this episode that you really need to pay attention to so. I am really honored to introduce our guest today. I'm gonna introduce david and then we're going to jump into what we do every week in that as we start off with a fun question just to kind of get to know one another a little bit more but our guest. This week is the reverend soon to be. Dr david rosa. Who is the founder and passer crucify formed. Church in hollywood. Closed down there in miami in florida. He is also the founder and president of the real talk mentoring program which provides personal leadership development opportunities for youth and young adults all across miami and broward county area. And so hey brother david man. I'm so thankful to have you peyton. I just really wanna say welcome. And thanks for hopping on here so thanks for being here and were every week we start off with a question just to kind of again allows payton ida banter a little bit but it also allows people to kind of get to know you a little bit more of a personal level. So i'm gonna ask. Peyton i because peyton is between payton. He's the guy you can tell from his shirt right now. He's got Shirt deaf towns. It's our question this is. What kind of music has influenced you the most and what so. I think i have a sense already. I'm kind of numerous to be honest. i think that's why the deaf tones might be my favorite band. Their little bit of everything they kind of took genre and they blew it out and everything else. They'll they'll sing the smiths. they'll take you know sawday. I mean doesn't matter what they do but my very first album. I'll start with my musical journey in like twenty seconds hall and oates rock and soul part one white guys who sang like black guys right. I mean that. Just got in there. Stevie wonder i mean i grew up in seventies any of that kind of stuff. Earth wind fire in that. That stuff is a young guy. I was like what is this right. I was just was what was playing. But as i got older i discovered punk. And i like the old punk ryan. I'm not like one of these green day guys. It's like clash. It's the old stuff the classic stuff and then from there anything that screams hard in loud and passionate alike. Wow did you get into screama when that was the thing. No no definitely. Not but i also like a little bit eleven rockets bow house. All that the post punk stuff is good as well. Wow all right man fits you. But i do understand you bit more now brother david. What about you man to who you are as a person. And we'll talk about your ministry in vocation. Well listen. I love this because we couldn't be any eddie more different in some sense but no for me is going to have to be the rebuilding era of hip hop so basically after the great the biggies The to pogs and the big ellison died proteges would have been jay z's the big pun's jada kisses and the dm maxes And so some call it the golden arrow the rebuilding era. So those are going to be my gosh from the mid nineties early two thousands and then also going to be a real big seltzer guy. And so you know the heck levels and the jerry rivera's find your all-stars in in a weird way really make up like even what we talk about the The urban latin culture which was heavily influenced by the african american community and the puerto rican community of new york city in the early nineties. And so that's that's gonna be mahmoud man. I wanna get into that too. Because i know that. That's that's a personal story. If i had to put my early up bringing together it would be a crossover of gangsta rap. So to pot biggie warren g so before your guys david which is this is an age thing now too. Because i'm older than named gosh. So you got warned. G snoop nwa public in Cross with metallica guns and roses so that that would be my early roots and then Yeah man if you're bringing up to speed to now. I mean these days like i'm i am all about like you know Wayne miles davis chill. Do this is what i write to. Okay this is my phd music. This is how i get things done. So that's my vibe right now so together not only ashman similarities between jazz. The allergy and philosophy b. Be neil so that. That'd be robert glass. eric. Bob doing man. Good stuff gets up dave. Thanks for being on brother man. This is really looking forward to this episode at actually helps peyton i. We're we're launching a new season of coming soon. And so this is a great way to to close the season with you But i we would love it if you can talk to the listeners. Everybody that's on. There's a there's a room filled with people that are listening to us right now Give us a little bit of your background. You ministry in the and specifically how you came to plant crucify him church absolutely. Thank you guys so much for this opportunity to be with. You are counted a great honor. As i mentioned a moment ago. I'm a. I'm a at this point. Guess i would call myself a new year regan. South floridian was born and raised in sunset. Park brooklyn new york predominantly urban. Puerto rican caribbean neighborhood born and raised there and very influenced by the hip hop coach of the early nineties. Then in nineteen ninety-seven My mother she passed from this life to the next. After a short bout with with breast cancer and so my family migrated from brooklyn new york city to south florida. Where we've been at now for over twenty years and so You know we think of south florida and you think of the beautiful beaches and and all of that kind of stuff and all of that is great and we enjoy all of it But there's all obviously in every city a broken side it is beauty and then there's a broken the sun after move into south road. I became acquainted if you would the beauty and the broken this of the south florida streets real quick and so here in south florida. You may have heard of the just the cocaine bec- you might have heard of the cocaine cowboys and carrying on and all of that lives on on the street still to this day. So real early on after moving to south. Florida got acquainted with with cocaine and the whole south florida. A drug scene nephew would got into all sorts of mess as here my early days in and out of juvenile detention centers and failed pregnancies and dropped out of the seventh grade. And all that. All that stuff. And i was headed down down the wrong way fast. But i'm glad that there's a god who runs much faster and there's a much better pursue of me. I am a man. Just run away from him. And so man as i just kind of continued drowning in my own sin and my broken this. My older sister got tired of kinda watching me. Self destruct and and so. My family has a long legacy or heritage in the public hostile tradition and so once. He knew nothing else to do. She knew to call him a name of the lord and she knew to invite me to church and so and so she. She invited me. The church finally got tired of telling her no and hearing her asked me again And so i did. What was expected of me. Pop a couple of bars got real hard and went and sat on the last few of the church At passed out got beer. What the sleep woke up. Maybe five minutes left in the sermon. The preacher was preaching out of first corinthians chapter one my home church past the past the kiki and he begins to close out his sermon. Going back to the text. Where's the wise person to teach of the law. The philosopher this age and then just kind of expounding on how god chooses the foolish things of this world to confound the wisdom of the wise now does that through the foolishness of the preaching of the cross and the way. I shared my story. Every time. As i say this i woke up and when i woke up a really woke up the spirit of god did a work in the on. That day came to faith in christ turn from us seems toward him. An instant came to fe and that church and the gospel. The fridge life was forever changed and so there was anything that i knew when i came to faith is that i love the streets on new a loved everything about it. I loved the drugs. A love. The woman i love the sex parties the money. I love all of that. Wow really like but let me say what happened in my story is i came to love jesus more than i liked all of that but i knew that if i did it do something major that i would just go back to what i knew and so my past the offered me essentially gave me an invitation to spend as much time as possible in the church building and so from the moment they would open the doors to the moment they close the doors. I was allowed just to spend time in the church so out of the seventh grade. Because i got in trouble every time i went to church so i say you know what i can't go to church pastor. I mean. I can't go to school anymore pastor a you know i got i got a drought because i don't want to get into trouble. I don't want to do things on like he thought i was crazy. I think i was halfway. But instead what i did was. I went to the church every day. And i studied the bible pray. The church became a house of refuge for me. It became the place where i learned how to read. It was the place where i develop any leadership capacity that i have today and we. I learned the skills that i use a today and so through that again. Pentecostal church come to faith. Radically get baptized row. Quick and i'm immersed into ministry begin to lead the youth and teach sunday school and even have some occasions to preach. But what i knew right away. Was that the same solution to my life's problems and broken this on needed to get out to as many people like me as possible and so immediately. I felt the call of reproducing spaces similar to the one a better become for me. A place of refuge that led me to starting different outreach ministries etc and. There's a whole bunch of details. But essentially at some point i begin to visit a church called coleridge presbyterian That was founded by the late. Great dr james kennedy to visit there and they meet this. No new year rican south floridian kid would a good story and some experience in ministry. They immediately put the seventh dropout into their internship that led me to take on a position as an interim benevolence coordinator which then got me connected with a one hope international at the put forth the book of hope all throughout the globe to start a ministry for incarcerating high risk youth and that kind of while i was there at coral ridge and this is important part of my story one of the task was assigned was to set up and facility. A group of church planters. That was called renew. South florida led by rick. Hunter's they got together. They talked about church planting and mobilizing people from mission. And i was in charge of making sure. They had hot coffee and bagels through that. I got acquainted with church planting and and then they connect me with spanish river from where i would be sent out in partnership with a fifty camden of. Yeah tiffany camden. Under the leadership of pastor doug logan it was through a hybrid residency that we planted our church and so now on the on easter sunday this weekend will celebrate five years of officially being launched six years on the ground for gloria got to get a neighbor. Yeah right on man. I i think it's so important. You shared that because the the the interconnection in the weaving of your of your own personal story but also what's taking shape. They're in south florida. I think is massive. Because i mean this isn't just your personal story. But this is what god is doing across north america through latinos in think. It's so important for us to understand that. Hey let's talk about the gift of latino american church and from your perspective david What is it about the latino christian tradition. That's shaping the american church right now like some of us we sense it. We feel it. We know it's more than just demographics and statistics. But there's a shaping of the american church in a big part of that is the latino tradition so talk about that for second. Yeah i love the way you say that question. By the way. The gift of the latino american church because i think what happens with that the phrasing of that even is that we acknowledge what so much of our american evangelical churches often miss. And that is that about versity in the body is something that we should Consider and celebrate and not just ignored salary right and i think so special that you've done that. I think the gift of the latino american church is is our identity of embodied by versity. So the latino american again. has an embodied diversity diversity which is seen in our dna in the latino. You have a dna of both being the rest and the oppressor. That's both part of our story one martinez who wrote a book recently. He says it's called the story of the latino protestants a latino president of the united states. He talks about how we can never really put a name to lot. Latinos says whether you call them what you call. Us latinos call hispanics. There's the complexity of imperialism colonialism conquest and racism. That's found in there. Because of our our miss. This i hear right. So latinos are a mixture of all sorts of different ethnicities coming together. So again i think the gift of the latino. American church is embodied diversity that confronts and combat's the separation and segregation that we too often see in the life of the church. The second part of that question in the second part of that question. You asked perspective of latin american american christian tradition and shaping. The american church must see that happening in two specific ways. One way. I see that happening is as the latino american church. Prophetically caused the american church back to comprehensive expressions of christian life. In the latino american church you find a faith that is marked by repentance and faith holiness and joy faith and work and a fully giving of oneself for the sake of von halio. The gospel one of the things that was recently put out in the studies by lifeway in the Pew research forum that you alluded to a minute ago was how much we've done with so little The way that we've expanded our resources in order to do ministry as effectively as possibly without having so much overhead. And i think that that's a byproduct of this comprehensive expression of the faith that we're going to just give everything for the sake of the advancement of of the kingdom of the second way that i think we're shaping. The american church is through. Our contagious ferverent spirituality. In the latino american church there is an aggressive pursuit of god through prayer and fats. Fasting that. I think we've also often miss out on now. I'll be careful to say that. I think that that fervent spirituality is not exclusive to the latin american church. I think you see in the immigrant. Church so often because of the complexities of that we've dealt with and yet i think that that's what i would say. I think the latino american church is shaping. The american church as it prophetically calls her back to a more comprehensive expression of the faith and a more fervor spirituality so would what are some of the struggles of latino americans enjoyable spaces. Yeah now try. I try to be as as quick as possible with this. I think i would say that. The biggest struggles for latino american event. Spacious is the seduction to fully simulate to dominate cultural norms. For the sake of what the dominant coach your measures as success against this duchesne into an almost four assimilation. The reality is that at some point. The system decided to give latinos the ability to identify as white. I wanna be careful. I don't wanna make this just a black or brown and the white issue. But i do want to engage the nuances and the realities of the system. The systemic and structural realities that we're living in and that we minister off through and from so at some point latinos were given the ability to identify as a white. Even though we ain't never been treated as such and many of us latinos. We drank the koolade. And so what happened. Is that while we did that. We traded our distinctiveness and prophetic voice. That comes from our own ethnic story again that ethnic story of having the dna of both the oppressed and the oppressor so we traded on distinctiveness prophetic voice to sit at the american evangelicals. Kids table where we chicken strips while of abomination culture eats rebuy. If you so there was an exchange that was made. And i'd say this that it's no secret at the kids table. You can only speak when spoken to. And you're told what conversations if you would. You can engage in conversations. You have no business in. And so the result of this terrible deal is we've made the dominant culture view of evangelical ism to be one that is not affected by our own. Ethnic story are distinctiveness and our prophetic voice. It's interesting again in wong martinez. His book the story of the latino protestant in the united states. He talks about in the introduction. I think it is. He talks about How the latino views denominational or movements as a secondary issue because of how Because of the story of how from the beginning our expression of spirituality has been marginalized as we've been pushed into a full assimilation. And so it's a day where you see latinos and denominations or mainline denominations. You often find that. Their therefore resources but they engage more with people outside of their denominational tribes who create space for them to more fully be who got created us to be and so again. I think one of the biggest struggles. For latino americans evangelical spaces is the reality that we've won been seduced into assimilating and to that we drank the koolade of assimilation. Which no longer gives us distinctiveness or prophetic voice. Yeah that's that's a powerful thought david David and i wanna point a couple of things out. Make sure people don't misses out if you have questions feel free to drop them in the chat and brooks and get over to us. We'll get as many as possible but you said a couple of things they don't want to highlight. They don't want people to miss a number one the complexity of what the you know americans. It's not just one ethnic group. It's not one ratio. i mean there's misdee- there's malabo's i mean there are. There's a different composition. There are are white hispanics. You know right. I mean there's actual census category for white hispanics and it's very complex even when it comes to national citizenship. Puerto rican right which is going to be a whole lot. Different dynamics from From mexicans and so we have the propensity within our local churches in to paint a broad brush. And that's that's we have to be careful to do that because we can make people invisible in the attempt to kind of aggregate the group. I think that's we can't miss that in especially on the local level where he lied in churches. Essentially you can treat the colombian the same way that you might do the mexican. And that's completely different. And i appreciate you highlighting that because what what is happening is that in. America hispanics are the largest youth population. Right now the population underneath eighteen right now. The largest is hispanics or latino americans Hispanic being the language category latino being the The ethnic were the national origin. And so it's so important for us understand because part of the growth that churches and denominations are seeing amongst evangelicals are actually amongst young latino americans so the fastest growing you know denominator one of the growing denominations that we all know of assemblies of god and they are fast growing because of americans but the dynamic that you talked about. Is there still yet. You know underrepresentation with national leadership. No they just they just brought on Choco passer choco. So he's he's he's bringing a lot of leadership diversity to that but these are the challenges that you're talking about these are the these are the next steps that we need to really be thinking about at the local and the national level's can you help us think about like the think that the mainstream evangelical and i'm not just talking about whites i'm talking about blacks and asians and the non latino do you think that we we are actually taking seriously enough. The arrival of the latino american leader yet or is it just kinda like do we get the weight in the gravity of what's happening right now. What are your thoughts. The simple answer is no. But i wanna i want to be careful to say this again. We have drink the kool aid right and in so doing we did. Trade are distinctiveness and prophetic voice for the sake of crumbs if you would and so that translates into us now not being prioritised for instance in movement spaces or in church planting funding structures etc. It's hard to prioritize somebody that essentially you forgot exist if we assimilate so much that that really we don't have any distinctiveness then it's hard to fund that person you can't fund somebody that you forget exists because we've essentially said hey we're good being where we are and what the voice that we have because we've traded distinctiveness in the same way when we traded this thing. Now there's no need for instance. For latino american consultants we need. We need black ministry consultants right. We need white ministry consultants wealthy ministry consultants and some people from impoverished areas as ministry consultants. But but we don't really need. Latino american ministry consultants because we again. We traded our distinctiveness of prophetic voice for crumbs. And so i wanna make that clear. And then i'd say that people don't respect what they don't recognize like you'll never respect again what you don't recognize and so if we've if we've lost our distinctiveness and become unrecognizable in some ways because we've so fully assimilated then we're never going to get the respect to get the consultation call or to be put on the board because people simply do not respect what they do not recognize so again in terms of the question of the thing that mainstream evangelicalism is taking seriously enough the arrival of latino american leaders again. How can they be forced assimilation. That doesn't allow this thank goodness and they dismissed those who have it assimilated because of this right so on the one hand. You can't because we've been fully assimilated on the other hand if we begin to express ourselves and our latini dot in our in our faith and practices and in our churches then the dynamics of our measurements of success will change You know if we're so excited that we're no longer sound if we're too excited. Then you know. Our faith is one of emotionalism excetera and so because of that. There's this reality. Where oftentimes we're not appreciated a good friend of mine. Rich rivera from south. Bronx says That the reality is that we can't say that evangelical taking seriously a lot of american leadership because there is no clear. Latino americans lead informing or shaping directions or decisions at a large scale in terms of movements. So i think we have a struggle. I don't think we're being taken seriously. And i think there's some serious reasons. Why so. lemme lemme is. Because i'm listening to what you're saying and of course on the white guy in the room right so i'm gonna i'm gonna ask some questions it you're always told there's no stupid question. I'm i'm asking this. I'm with you brother. I'm totally with you. So you know. I'm going to ask some clarifying questions. Not as a challenge but really just for clear understanding. So i agree with you. I think you look around. In evangelical circles it is recent that you've been seeing like you know here. We are talking. Daniel representing asian community. But this is new. In what i like. It's always been white dudes so part of as i'm listening to you. I'm hearing and i'm accepting because you know. This is something. I not latino right on the white dude on part of the majority culture always have been right always always going to be white. But when i went overseas and i was a missionary my role in my job was to assimilate into majority culture as much as possible without holding back like learning the language. Adopting the cultures practice is now. I realized that america is not like were a country of immigrants. So it's a different dynamic. And so what i'm asking is how where's the line for you like. Would you say that. I've got to maintain my distinction. Because i'm a latin passer reaching a community of immigrants in miami as opposed to someone who's in duluth minnesota duluth say that. I don't know how to say i'm in minnesota. I'm in minnesota. And i'm reaching a bunch of people a bunch of white or blue collar workers. Would you then say depending on the context where i'm at on mission. Would it change you know. would you say hey. I'm gonna lose my distinction in that sense colleague. Were paul says it. Become all things all men but because you're at it totally makes sense or are you saying no. I would need to maintain this as part of like a multi-ethnic is a church. Comes together. this part of a nation of immigrants is part has to be represented. Is that what you're saying. I know that's a like three questions and wine. I appreciate that so much brother in the words of One of my coaches and mentors rob rid of redeemer city city. Who translated this from the the the ninja theologian himself. Tim keller. I believe that the gospel doesn't make me robert se les dominican but that instead it makes me more dominican. I would say i believe that. The gospel doesn't make me less a new. You can sell floridian but it makes me a more a more fully a new year regan south floridian and as such. I believe that. My ethnic story contributes to the glory of god in the world because of that regardless of where i'm called to ministry regardless of context it is important that i that i keep and maintain my ethnic distinction so for me i believe that the kingdom of god and the s katan. They're going to be people every nation tribe and tongue And i believe that. That reality showcases. The grace. The beauty and the reconciling work of god now on the earth as christ brings about the culmination of his gospel right and so because of that. Yeah i would say no was an idaho. I was an iowa alabama wherever. It's important that that i that my i was i was doing a one of my crews group yesterday And i had an italian brother with me. And we were talking about holistic ministry excetera and one of the things that he said in light of our teaching light of some of the same conversation. He says man a feel more white now Right and he said that not as a like a hit on his whiteness but instead as he found his place in the story of god and he saw some benefit to fully engaging that And so yeah so there would be a man must become all things to all people that we might reach them but paul never stopped being who he was he was fully who he was. He made adjustments in his communication. He made adjustments and his and his practice so that he would not create hindrances for the gospel work Yeah that that's that's my deal. No that's good man. That's that's actually because the ethnic the ethnic representation is beautiful. And that's part of daniel is hope is to to really kinda amplify that on this show and like give that give that voice right and that it was more Direction like is there an emphasis that would shift. You know whereas like i realized like when you're talking now you're talking to the greater body of evangelism you're saying this voice needs to be heard and i agree with you like when i left my position at nam will replace my role to train the western. Us were like has to be a latin guy. Can't be a white dude over that role like that's just a no brainer and all us. That's a no brainer. Needs to be a spanish speaking latino leader that represents the western the southwest united states. And and i think we're seeing those positive moves but But yeah i just you know. It was more a mishel emphasis rather than an identity. You know what. I'm saying. Because i think your identity as just part of beautiful. That's just beautiful. Who got megyn that you know. You never lose that right. Like i would no matter where i was. I was always going to be this american white dude but But that really helped me understand. I appreciate that at and all that part on just the aspect of it. I would say that in america. It is extremely important. For the latino american to recover and maintain it's his his or her distinctiveness and that the numbers are just growing by leaps and bounds. And so at this point in america we need more latino american leaders period. Whether we're talking about politics no matter where we're talking about in society right now and no matter where we find ourselves. We need more latino leaders everywhere if we are to say that we are truly being intentional in our missing and our for reaching america america now. The biggest minority group in america is the latino Therefore we're gonna be if we're going to strategize. If we're truly committed to a mistrial aji that deals directly with the people here than we have to recover and maintain a lot the american leadership nice just to piggyback on. That are making a great point. I think there's a difference between full on assimilation. Which none of us would say you know is going to be beneficial to the identity piece. Yeah but there is the incarnation in learning. That's the mri logical missino piece where we know segregation can't work we know assimilation. If you lose yourself. Then that's oppression but incarnation is this willingness volunteering of becoming like the other so that you might win them and i think that's a dynamic skill that we all have to learn in you know for the first time in a long time. A lot of whites are having learned that in their own backyard. Travel you know To to experience that you know. And i think that's so important in the flip side of this david. I want to ask you because you lead a multiethnic church in south florida there. I think it's so important that you'd lead a church that can have this conversation. Seamlessly know because we have multi-ethnic churches where this is a very awkward conversation. You know i mean it's it's it's a very advanced conversation for some people but the part of the reason why you can have this as your your intellectual ability to have this as there. But you're also immersed in this because you're south florida and this is just naturally how you all you all talk. You know i'm in. I'm in a part of chicago where you know. My neighborhood is seventy eight percent hispanic and so these conversations just kind of they just happened at the ground level. Help us to think through like the importance of raising a church. Planters future church. Passers that can lead multi-ethnic churches that can have this high level of conversation. Because that's a little bit different than i think. Multiethnic church that's led by a white person and we need more of those here. We need more of those. We need more multiethnic. Church is led by americans and asians but this is a high level conversation that you get to form the theology of a local congregation. Like you're you're you're doing that on the ground level in it's actually going to shape a generation for how they engage the culture around them the importance of that Because i know. I mean in our conversations like you're orthodox evangelical you're not marxist liberal and none of that stuff right your reform your you know so but but this is. This is the conversation you know. Oh the gospels. The conversation obviously. But this is a seamless conversation that you have. It's forming the local theology in. It's impacting the way that you could develop leaders talk about that. Yes so When we talk about movements and we talked about multi ethnic movement i was around when lorettes briley ritz started out the kind movement and although it feels like it feels like so many years ago. But it's just you know five six years ago or whatnot. We started this multi-ethnic movement and We began to see different expressions of ethnic churches pop up and left and the right but for the most part we were just doing. We were doing everything that we had always been doing. Just with different colors in leadership roles right and so what ended up happening with the multi ethnic movement or in a lot of spaces multi-ethnic movement. Is that those churches. They grew oftentimes with a bunch of white people. We love dearly shutout so my white brothers and sisters right so so they grew a bunch but they didn't it really make a dense or grow too much in our local neighborhoods. There were there were coming. But they weren't affecting the coach of our local neighborhoods etc because those ethnic were not true to the areas that they were planted oftentimes and they weren't true to anyone's ethnic identity. I think the worst thing we could have done is start these churches with a bunch of different colors where we stripped everyone of their culture. And that's often what we got in the name of multi-ethnicity and so as i lead a multi-ethnic movement specifically a urban minority led multi-ethnic movement. I think what we're what we're finding what we're going for is to make sure that the people that we put in place and the people that were mobilizing are confident in their distinctiveness that they're confident in their cultural norms and realities and that they can tell the story of god through the lens of that reality who still gonzalez wrote a book entitled son bobby via where he talks about the bible through the lens of the perspective of the latino american. That's what i'm going for. And that's what so many of my the people that i esteem that i'm influenced by so many movement leaders are going for right now is what does it looked like to have a multi-ethnic movement that is led from the margins that is led from people of color that has led by immigrants and that is led by second and third generation a latino americans for the sake of seeing these multi ethnic movements speak to the reality of the people and not strip them from the ethnic and so that's looked like for us is we had to change the scorecard. I've been talking a lot lately about the scorecard. And changing the scorecard talking a lot lately about unprofessional ising discipleship and disciple makers one things. I'm real excited about. Is that on this good friday. We are having. We're going through in the spanish church and church. we talk about las palabras and so every good friday. We get a preacher preachers to come up and go through the final seven statements of the cross. And all that kind of stuff and so we've kind of continued that heritage. But the way we're going about that now is that we'd like mobilized seven people from our congregation who are not professional preachers. Who are not the professional ministers if you would but who love jesus who are committed to his calls and who understand the gospel and they're going to be the ones prejean. I'm not even preaching. I'm having them preach. Diego lead that thing. They're going to share. Because i believe that if that so long as our ministers of the people we multiply or send out the professionals man we are never going to reach this country of the kingdom of for the gospel of christ Daniel you just put out a new article talking about the numbers and how many people we need the reach by twenty fifty to see just the kingdom continue to advance in such a way where we don't become an afterthought i think if we're going to do that we gotta change the scorecard we have to begin to mobilize and multiplied cycle makers who are not professional but who love jesus and believe that in a browning america we need to see that happen from the margins needs to be. A urban minority led multi-ethnic movement. That would be very different from the movement we have today. Yeah it's good. It's really good man. Thanks so much for that. it's funny man. I want to give a little shout out to armando peraza. The guy that i referenced earlier. Who came up as we chatted in. He was talking about you. Know the distinctive of Hispanic churches hispanic speaking yada. Yada you know latino in all the different types he said look he goes. The thing is exactly what you're talking about about less professional discipleship You know not is glued to programs you know. Just empowering of the average believer is what's happening. And i was like man that sounds so much more in line with with what fires nia and what gets me excited. And what's more first century to be honest. I mean i think that's kind of the thread that i'm seeing is it's more like seven. The book of acts so my hope is that we can learn more and more from the latino church in future but our last question is what are kind of the hopes dreams and aspirations of the next generation. Latino american church leaders as daniel alluded to earlier. Latino americans are not monolithic. so so i'll speak specifically to my dreams if you would and the vision casting to those in my sphere of influence if that's okay with your and so i'm dreaming of seeing my latino american brethren and sisters liberated from the captivity of american evangelist evangelical of ways of being what i mean by. That is that. I'm dreaming of the latino american Leader church planter men disciple maker be able to freely mobilize people to the work of god in the way the god has moved us and created us and the way he shaped us. One of the one. The things that would have to happen for that to happen. Is that need my latino american brothers and sisters to to kind of again rediscover our christian heritage and the work. That's been done before us. I think as a latino american. I can say this confidently than we have forgotten where we've come from. We have neglected our heritage in terms of the church. A lot of our people have no clue or haven't really considered what the church the latin american church has had to do to even get to where it's at today and so like i'm dreaming of what would it looked like for my la a latino american brothers and sisters to begin a more instituto biblical. I don't know if you've ever heard of the concept of an institute. Bieb go. But in our latino american communities now we didn't have access to seminaries the money for have the resources and there weren't any institutions that we had to send our people to in that way. And so what are people did was they began these institutes or these bible institutes where they taught the average labors and the essential doctrines of the fe and ministry nuts and bolts so that they can do the work of mission and discipleship. I'm dreaming of seeing people begin to it's a of take back on those practices and then i'm dreaming of seeing the different spaces in american evangelicalism begin to platform recognize an resource more latino american leaders and expressions of faith. That's what i'm dreaming. I'm dreaming of. What would it look like. For the american church to begin to recognize and respect our differences and not only respect but celebrate our differences in such a way that we would begin to prioritize each other. And and that's a dream right now because unfortunately again even though the latino american is the largest minority group in our country we've yet to prioritize the latin american voice so i'm dreaming of a day where even in light of missile logical frameworks. Even in light of the reality of our demographics here in the states we would mobilize up prioritize and resource latino americans to reach this country and the world for the glory of god and the good neighbor So good man. I man if we can support that dream. I mean we're we want to. We want to be a part of that. And and i know peyton said we're asking the last question but i wanted to follow up because i just think it's so important david for us to bring this to the ground in we're talking about frontlines and we're dealing with issues. That passengers are thinking through every day. And i i would like for you to dress. Two things really quickly as we wrap up here is. I would like to address emerging latino american leaders as a as a as an older brother. Who's you're you're so young. You know peyton jones. You know how. David roses david. Tell us how you are on a good day. I don't even remember i. I'm thirty one. Third seventy two. Now you just made late field road. I always feel real old. This made me feel older and thirty. One you can't get anything then because my you forget everything. Now listen i think that this world is. I live in dog years man. That's shoes which by the way of a couple of people are asking for david. Roses information i think brooks is going to drop his website both church and his ministry website there so you can reach out to them. But david i really want to give you an opportunity. Because you're not just speaking to those listening live people come back and listen to this in those share it out. But for those latino american leaders who you know. They've been holding for a long time. They feel like. I can't be in this tent space where i can't be myself and lead the way that like to lead and so they might just like you know. Go out and do their own thing. That's what they need to do. Or you know some of them are thinking you know what i mean. I can't i american evangelicalism. That armor is too heavy for me. I need a shed it. Can you speak to those. Who have that tension. And then on the flip side of that for those of us who work predominantly white spaces. But then we have the the ethnic ministries the hispanic ministries in the hispanic director and speak to those. Who are currently overseeing. You know this kind of siloed segregated way of thinking about doing ministry and how can they better integrate leadership so to audiences as we close here. One the emerging leader. What would you mentor them in. And then secondly as the institutional leader how can they create a better space for these emerging leaders to lead war. One of the things that i would say and that i would that would share that i do. Share with emerging. Latin american leaders is is again. This idea of regaining or recovering our distinctiveness for the way showcases. The glory of god in the multi ethnic. A church of god is important. For my latino american brothers and sisters answer in lip bully into our distinctiveness at our story because august thank goodness and our story sheds light on god's creativity and The beauty of his splendor and radiance in the world. And so and so. Here's what i want. My latino brothers sisters. Do i want us to begin to learn again. A from our og or older brothers and sisters in the faith who have come before us. We need to get acquainted with by the. We need to get acquainted with. Who's the ruins is. We need the get acquainted with the work of one martinez man. Listen you need to know dr. Liz unreels you gotta get connected with robert gerardo you got you gotta get no michael carey on my brother rich rivera. There are so many people who've been doing this work. Even my mother horton who have been doing this work With our cultural or ethnic lens who can speak who put a framework ethnic story. And listen you and i have a story to. That's what i wanted to say. Dan you it's my love. You know american brothers and sisters we have a story to and our story brings again about the beauty of christ. So there's a black story. And i love my black brothers and sisters and there's a white story and i love my white brothers and sisters and there's an asian story and i love my asian brothers and sisters but there is a story of latino americans of god is using and the he desires to us to expand the reach of the people of god. Here i believe and listen. I got my bias. I believe that. One of god's most powerful tools to reach this next wave of americans is the latino american church. I see any way around. That as the demographics continue to grow as our young people continue to become more and more latino as american sa- brown god is raising up latino americans to lead the way. Here's here's what would be read brother. I think this would be cool. If you put a podcast or someone put a podcast together. It was like a crash course for white guys like me on this man. I'd come running up to that in a heartbeat. I'm wanting to brother. come on do it. You have your new mission go. I'm your first follower or god. Just just to. If i can get a second out. Also say to those as the two leaders man of our different hispanic you know movements and all that inva- nominations mao. I would say. I would say hey. Listen if you can't recover your distinctiveness. I'm sorry If if rope somebody the wrong way if you can't this regain your distinctiveness. Answer more fully. Into who god has created you to be that you may need to consider going elsewhere. Because god wants to use the latino american and this season to reach this country our missio allergy our strategies. Our movements depend on humble holy goes filled a gospel centered. Let the americans leading the way charting a way forward if you have to sacrifice you lot dot for the sake of being a part of an institution that is the tuition is not seeking to really reached this changing demographic you need to reconsider have some good humble conversations about why you love is so important. Set a task at hand. And if we can't do that well let's figure out how for the sake of the kingdom of god the unity of all things we can We can do that in different. That's all i got. Awesome man david. Thanks for so much for hopping on and really we love to have you back brother because there's so much more that we could unpack here. So thanks for hanging on their. Thanks for all the questions and then put they came in there. And you just want to let you know that exponential has got a couple of things coming up soon We get some round tables. We had a summit. That's happening very soon and want to make sure that you also go to sentence dot org And check out some research that we talked about today and then i'm super excited because peyton jones book churchmen technology came out in pain. If i understand this correctly we're going to be on the show next week. Talk a little bit about it. I'm holding it in my hand right now. I got a copy with your name on it. But y- man absolute thanks for that looking forward to having that discussion too. So hey god bless you all things for signing on today.