Interview with Filmmaker Alex Gibney | 5


I'm Wendy Gramm and this is American scandal And today we wrap up our series on corruption in the state capital of Albany in New York. We started the series with the rise and fall of former New York attorney. General and Governor Eliot Spitzer his very public demise made national headlines. It was also the subject several years later documentary. Client nine the rise and fall of Eliot Spitzer in two thousand eighteen. I spoke about that film with its Oscar. Winning Director Director Alex Gibney and the course of making the film Gibney interviewed Eliot Spitzer himself many of his enemies providing a much richer understanding of the scandal and of the corrosive effects of power especially Albany in addition to give these multiple emmys a grammy several peabody awards more. He's also won an academy award for for best documentary feature in two thousand seven for the film taxi to the dark side which he wrote and directed. He's the president and founder of Jigsaw productions and has been named by The New York Times and Esquire magazine as the most important and prolific documentarian of our time. Alice gibney joins us from Jigsaw Studio. In New York City the American scandal is sponsored by the capital one Walmart rewards card introducing the capital one Walmart rewards card earned and five percent back at Walmart online games for the kids headphones for that. A laptop for mom doesn't matter you get five percent back at Walmart online. You'll also learn. Learn two percent at Walmart in store restaurants and travel and one percent everywhere else when you want all that you need the capital one rewards car capital one Walmart rewards card. What's in your wallet? Turns exclusions apply capital one and a Alice Gibney thank you for joining me on this interview episode of American Scandal. Thank you Lindsey. Good to be here. You'll work work really spans. The gamut documentaries on scientology to musicians Frank Sinatra and James Brown and you've even executive producer cooking series on Netflix so given such breath. What draws you to a project? What about a subject gets you thinking? This needs to be a fill very very often. I'm drawn to stories That look behind the headlines once once the caravan of the twenty four seven news cycle has passed by a a lot of evidence and a lot of detail and sometimes the various central meaning of historians left behind. People have decided what the story is about and they've moved on Twenty Four Seven Caravan. So I'm intrigued at what the real story is and and what people missed And so in the case of the Eliot Spitzer tale I found a number of interesting things about offered this story By a group of people who who thought I should take it on and I was initially a not so interested because it just seemed like a garden variety sex scandal but the more I thought about out of the more interesting it became. I mean this was the sheriff of Wall Street who goes down just a few months before the world economy explodes That timing seemed interesting to me then. The whole idea of there was a kind of murder on the Orient Express quality to this which is to say that Spitzer was going after some of the Titans of industry and banking And as a group they ended up taking him down so it seemed to me a pretty interesting story about tower on how power really works. And we'd like to think that people in government are more powerful than private industry. Maybe it's not so maybe it's more of a bare knuckle brawl than we think. Then there was the whole issue of Of how we went down that is to say the sex scandal and I was interested in the sexual politics as well as the electoral politics. So for all those reasons it seemed a very interesting story to explore in two thousand. Seven Eliot Spitzer is elected governor. He spent eight years. As new. York's Attorney General and earned the moniker on occur. The Sheriff of Wall Street fighting corruption in the financial industry. He was a hero for a lot of people and seem too big. Too Big to jail right. Were you living in New York time where you admire. I was in the New York area. I live in the great incorrupt state of New Jersey but I work in New York so of course I was intensely interested in what was going on in New York and I. I certainly wasn't admirers spits. I thought he was fulfilling an important function. Now he may have been legislating from the Attorney General's office but frankly I thought he was doing something that needed to be done. which was to hold the power? Our of Wall Street in check because They were patiently violating the rules. That we regard you know in a kind of idealistic way. Way is essential to the functioning of of good markets and fairness in the economy And he was going up and punching a lot of these people in the nose and basically saying you can't can't just be corrupt. I'M GONNA I'M GONNA come down on you. Come down on you hard. Because as the Attorney General of New York state I have purview over the financial industry. And so he was one of the few people willing to take them those people on which I found really interesting and I think frankly could've been president He he was one of the few politicians democratic politicians who pulled higher among men than women So because he was a law and order a guy Guys like them and women locked in to because he was trying to stick up for the underdog so I think he had. An opportunity has not fallen so far to to become president of the United States. I think he was on his way then. Of course just a year after becoming governor He's connected to a prostitution ring. which really no one was expecting given his law and order background when when you were researching this and thinking about the sexual scandal aspect what was interesting about that? Portion of the story from a filmmakers perspective. was there one single question you needed to answer. I wouldn't say there was one question but there were a number of questions. The first thing was why escorts you know one have an affair or And and then I also wanted to know a lot more more about the world of escorts because of course the world escorts and And when we say escorts I mean very high. End High priced prostitutes or sex workers So they catered to the financial industry and of course As it turns out they also catered to the attorney general and governor but but So so I was interested in. Why would a- crusading law-abiding Attorney General? And why would he turn to an escort service which is of course illegal in New York state And I you know and then I also wanted to know more about it. Like who was this Ashley Dupre. It turned out that actually she was not at the heart of the story. She was rather peripheral referral character. But I did find somebody who is at the heart of the story so there were a lot of interesting threads to pull on in order to be able to understand understand the sexual part of the Spitzer scandal and who was it that you found that you thought was at the heart of the story. We found a woman WHO's not named. She's called Angelina in the film. But this was a woman who had a great many assignations with Spitzer and indeed would travel travel to meet him while he was on the road which was one of the reasons that she was in the sights of the Department of Justice because the Department of Justice We're was trying to make a man act case against Spitzer and the man act is a much reviled of piece piece of a legislation. which makes it illegal to travel with a woman across state lines for immoral purposes? What ultimately Nail Jack Johnson Johnson way back in the day and and because he traveled across state lines for immoral purposes with this An escort who he requested a number of times and ultimately ended up having a relationship with as opposed to a kind of Wham Bam sexual encounter which is how he started. Ordered his experience at the at the Emperor's Club VIP so that brought me into Finding this woman and it took me a long time to get there. When I finally found her she agreed to talk but but not on camera and indeed because her voice is distinctive? Didn't WanNa talk on audio. What we had to do was I recorded? Extensive conversations patients with her. I edited then. And then I actually hired an actress named Rent Schmidt to portray her and at least initially. That's not disclosed. The ultimate lead is disclosed in the American scandal is sponsored by ziprecruiter recruiter. Hiring is challenging. 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This is not. It's not a new story. He's pretty much just summed up. What many people thought the headline version of his fall? Why do you think he agreed to be interviewed and went in the interview process? Did he come to this summary. That was early and that that part is very much the control Eliot Spitzer and I had a number of interviews with him and I think over time we got a little bit deeper than that. That's Eliot Spitzer talking about himself in the third person and also comparing himself to Greek gods. That's that's the Eliot Spitzer. That's very much the public Elliot Spitzer. I think he ultimately wanted to do but we ultimately got a lot deeper than that. I think I think he wanted to do this. In part and it took a long time entre persuade him to agree to speak and we were the first people to get him to talk about. This publicly thinking agreed to do it. Because he didn't want scandal to be the last chapter he wanted an opportunity to be able to not just give his side of the story but to also tell the whole story so it was not just a fall from grace. It was a rise and fall store. He wanted people to remember the rise as well as the fall. And so on that basis of and I it was interested in that part too so on that basis. We we agreed to talk And and talk did over and I think it was a series of five interviews at the very last one. When we finally finished he turned to me and quipped so same time next week do you think his desire To tell the the full story the rise and fall I mean. It's understandable that everyone will remember the fall and it's understandable that he would want people to know I know about the rise it does he make his case was he compelling that that his whole arc should be remembered yes I think he was compelling I think if you look at his career as attorney general it was a terribly impressive career in terms of being the sheriff for Wall Street and being kind of the defacto regulator You know in a system where the SEC and Congress was unwilling to hold Wall Street to account because because Wall Street has so much money. If you're politician you need Wall Street's money to get elected Spitzer was very. She didn't need their money. And and frankly the way our economic system is structured it's almost intentional. In terms of The weakening of regulatory bodies that that attempt to You know hold the financial industry in check So there was nobody minding the store until Spitzer so I've found what he did in that realm to be very impressive passive and indeed as Attorney General. Did what attorneys general are supposed to do which was to protect the weak against the strong so look at people who running scams against people who couldn't afford to fight back and he would fight back for them so I found it very powerful in these interview segments with Eliot Spitzer. He looks like he's sitting on a living room couch. It feels familiar and close where was that filmed. And and what was your intention in that setting I think the intent we wanted to find a place in A. I think that's part of the reason why you said same time next week. We've wanted to find a place that was secure I knew I was going to interview him over. Laura a number of different times And I want to control of that space so It was the apartment of it. Was the parents apartment of one of my producers And we treated because the parents were mostly overseas Geez we had access to it Over a period of time and we were able to make it into a kind of a set but we want it to feel very comfortable and therefore the couch and the End The decor. It's comfortable in a little bit severe in shooting the Svitzer. It's our interview and frankly in shooting the Angelina interview with the actress. Those are the only two people with whom I use. The device called the Tony Tron. It's a devise a series of mirrors. You put over the housing of Lens which allows you to be looking at the speaker in this case Spitzer but Because he's looking into a mirror over the lens. He appears to be looking directly into the barrel of the Lens which in fact he is doing. And so that gives it a kind of intimacy. That's unlike the all the other So it's though those are the only two people that that have that kind of direct eye contact contact with the viewer. The title of the documentary is client nine just briefly. Where does that name come from? Why did you decide on that? It seemed a little bit like like citizen Kane but in a in a very different way. client nine is taken from a document humint compiled by the Department of Justice when they are investigating Spitzer Or they were theoretically investigating the emperor's Club VIP and in so doing they discovered a number of clients Certainly clients one through eight and the remaining after nine Interestingly the only name that leaked to the press was client. Non Eliot Spitzer But there there seemed to be something sort of universal about it he was just client nine nine anonymous yet at the same time. Of course he was Eliot Spitzer so there was a certain poetry to it. A certain cruel poetry I should say and frankly it was was also salacious and Intentionally so because this was a story about a scandal but interestingly you know client nine even that phrase has a number of different meanings I mean. It's there's a salacious quality to it because he's a client of of escort service but but this law enforcement quality to to and that document is something that the Department of Justice used to leak To to the To various news organizations particularly the New York Times as a way of giving them a series of breadcrumbs that they could follow in order to be able to find out out that the governor was using an escort service. They did that instead of indicting him which was probably more effective than in destroying his political career than indicting him and frankly I'm not sure they had grounds to indict him on a federal level. Well this leads into something was going to ask you you mentioned earlier. The feds were theoretically investigating the emperor's Club and you just seem to indicate that this theoretical investigation was just a means to get to Spitzer. Do you think that's really the case. Yes I don't think there's any question about it. It wasn't as if and the federal government the federal government has a rule does not take on the busting of Prostitution rings you know. City of city attorney's take that on sometimes state attorneys take that on but not the federal government generally speaking So they were following the trail and then once they found that the trail led to the emperor's Club. They began to investigate the emperor's Club but it was really following Spitzer It was not of an investigation into a prostitution ring. Just happened to stumble on Eliot Spitzer. Now this is this I should say takes place at a time when there was a great deal of controversy over whether or not the US Department of Justice Estes was being a rapidly politicized by the Bush administration And indeed the US attorney in the southern district of New York was Manning Michael Garcia who ultimately I think as a reward for taking out Eliot Spitzer was rewarded with partners position At I believe. Leave Kirkland analysis. You guys that have to check that with. But that's a very prominent if I'm right and you should check it if I'm right that's a very prominent Very prototypical prototypical Pro Republican firm. From which a lot of The Republican powerbrokers in legal terms often emerge with this gets at the question of Spitzer's enemies. Certainly he made enemies of a lot of very powerful and very wealthy people on Wall Street Street You would think or hope that the federal government itself has no direct animus towards him but perhaps the people in installed positions and might you made some discoveries about these enemies of Spitzer but then left a mystery on who might have been involved in the downfall. Do you have the thesis on on what happened. who was behind it? Yeah so I should say two things about this one is I do have a thesis But I only went as far in the film as I felt the facts would take me So I go right on up to the edge of the thesis but I can't say definitively that I know exactly what what happened because the key perpetrators in this murder on the Express story did didn't confess but since the film a number of people have told me that I was right at least in terms of some of the key figures. who were we're in business? That went after Spitzer notably Ken langone Maurice Hank Greenberg. WHO's the head of a a G and Dick Grasso who who ran around the New York Stock Exchange? I had a I had a number of sources. Tell me that they toasted Spitzer's demise with a magnum of Champagne the twenty one club And you know langone denies ever hiring private eyes to look after Spitzer but we know that private is were the reason that Spitzer sir was ultimately The people got enough clues to understand The something might have been wrong. And then You know through banking records A parallel investigation takes place and the Department of Justice. This becomes involved and I do think that there was. There was an animus toward Spitzer because he was arrogant and I think the Department of Justice felt that sometimes he was muscling into their territory territory and also that he wasn't being He was observing the proper role of an attorney. General he was trying to legislate from the attorney. General's office so I think there's a certain amount of ill will towards Spitzer from the Department of Justice in addition I do think there were elements in an extremely only politicized department of Justice. Were gunning for Spitzer so all these people got together. That's why I think murder on the Orient Express is such a good analogy. All these people got together to plunge the nih-funded Spitzer but the thing that really takes so I think it starts with a private investigation into Spitzer to just to see what dirt can emerge wants a little bit of jerk is revealed the Department of Justice takes over and And then they produce a thorough investigation which they then leaked to to the press and that in short terms is how Spitzer went down American scandal is sponsored by bombis years ago before I was podcasting. Someone gave me some bombed socks for Christmas totally totally typical kind of safe holiday gift but I like colorful socks. 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And this is right and the height breath of some of our worst exchanges. Couldn't have been any more pleasant but when he came after me in what was called Trooper Gate then it. It was apparent that this man really intended to destroy me so my first question is it's obvious that the two of them are from different backgrounds in different political parties. But why do you suppose he and Spitzer had such a hard time getting along. Well I do think there are a number of reasons for that one of then is I think Spitzer was In some ways a great public figure but a terrible politician some of his own advisers would tell me with with great anguish. They could never get Eliot Spitzer to play the political game in which you try to seed with somebody somebody you need as an ally an idea even though it's your idea and let them take credit for it and once. They've absorbed as their idea comes a lot easier to make it what happened. They think it's there since they WANNA take credit for it and Spitzer would always say things like will wash. I let him take credit for it was my idea and everybody would sort of slap their foreheads. Like you idiot. That's not how the game is played. The game is played by making other people. Feel good you. That was the game that Clinton was so masterful at and his own way. Joe Bruno Gentlemen Joe Bruno he was great you know. He's a very charming man. I wouldn't say Elliot I mean there are things I find charismatic charming about Elliott but generally speaking. He's not a charming guy. Bill Clinton walks into a room he seduces everybody. Not so Eliot Spitzer Eliot Spitzer uses force and he learned learned that in in the Attorney General's office that's not always such a great way of You know getting legislation through particularly particularly in a kind of hidebound environment like the Senate and assembly in New York State which is deeply corrupt So so He wasn't good glad handing and instead he would punch people in the nose then he'd be surprise that people would remember that he had punched them in the nose When it came time to cut him some slack you know we think about a number of people who went through big sex sex scandals and survived including Amanda? I'm David bitter from a a senator from Louisiana who ordered prostitutes a during roll-call votes in Congress and yet all he had to do was to pray to God that You know an and not everybody that that that he was a senator but God had forgiven him and then he goes on with his political career of completely analogous to Spitzer Clinton would be another one John Edwards. Well John Edwards fell but Clinton you know survived his political scandal. Y Clinton had friends Spitzer at the time of his scandal. Had No friends so I don't think he was very good political a player at all. He didn't know how to make friends. He knew how to make enemies. It's two thousand eighteen and it doesn't look like much has really changed in Albany since Spitzer resigned many of these characters that were instrumental in his fall have fallen themselves Bruno Force to resign and just recently earlier earlier this month former New York State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver. One of the three men in the room with Spitzer was granted his request for bail and to stay out of prison until his appeal of his conviction of corruption charges and then you have former New York. State Senate Majority Leader Dean scallops and his son Adam who had also had their sentencing trial a lot in the news about the current governor. Cuomo as well what. What is it about all that that persists that even despite Spitzer's steamrolling charge to change it Cuomo's attempt to do the same? Why All many corrupt and why is it intractable? That's probably a really good question for William Kennedy in terms of the culture of Albany but I suspect that the culture of Albany is as corrupt as it is because it's a it's a representative body of a very wealthy state and yet these people don't really get paid enough to survive. So they're doing. They're they're sort of businessmen representatives who have access two enormous treasures if they play the game well and and so you see incredible corruption and and it will be surprising surprising if that corruption can be rooted out you noted properly that a number of key players in the Spitzer scandal or the spitzer story have become disgrace themselves on fallen one exception to that is Andrew Cuomo. Andrew Cuomo was actually pivotal in terms of bringing nick. Spitzer down. If you go back and think about it. He was the one who was really writing. Very hard on the investigation into trooper. Need which at least in my view was kind have a a trumped up episode. Ginned up by a Joe Bruno just to make Spitzer look bad But I think cuomo saw his own rivalry spitzer as an opportunity to make that more than it was. That's my own personal view. That's not something that's deeply embedded in in the film but I would also also say this and it's very interesting to note that one of the key financial and political supporters of Cuomo particularly when he first runs for governor is cannot go who has Spitzer's archenemy the man who said You know if if he's going to try to put a stake in my heart he better make it steal because will break so The alliance between Ken Langone and and Andrew Cuomo is one that people should probably pay a little bit more attention. You've had opportunity to interview and Converse with a lot. The people of Power Albany is a place of power. What do you think it is about power that makes people think that they can get away with things? It's an aphorism it's easy to say the power corrupts but what's the mechanism of power that that that that gets into the bloodstream of these people. I think the two things happen simultaneously toxic mix. One is when you get a lot of power you begin to believe your own bullshit You Begin to. I believe that you are as great and as wonderful as other people say that you are and they say that you are because you have a lot of power surrounded by flatterers and the next thing you know you wanna believe that I also think that people with power tend to be on a mission and when you're on a mission you believe more strongly in the purity of the end than the Goodness of the means to achieve that Dan. You somehow believe that the pure end can justify an ignoble corrupt means and so this this this combination of A sense of enormous. It's a belief in your own Strength of character as a result of those flatter you in the sense sense that the end justifies a ruthless means allows you to be corrupt. I think think that you know whether it's Eliot Spitzer who imagined that you know. Look he was doing so much good for the people of New York and ultimately the people around on the country surely he deserved a little. Bit of fun And and and I think that That he could do a former Crusading Attorney General could engage in activities ladies for which he prosecuted other people That's kind of suspension of of of a belief that is is hard to really understand genesis. Sort of extreme cognitive dissonance But I think people in power are afflicted with Ah Blindness a sense of invulnerability that Ultimately Interesting Way League and ironically often causes them to lose that power this affliction the sense of invulnerability most often infects those in positions of public public power politicians celebrities. Certain flashy CEOS but there's another sort of power a power you've alluded to the power of influence behind behind the scenes and the power of influence of the public narrative. I in terms of in terms of power in terms of this story. There's an intriguing character character that plays a kind of minor role in this film but who has since played a more fundamental fundamental role in the rise of Donald Trump and that is roger stone. It's unclear who hired Roger Stone to tag or target Eliot Spitzer. I suspect it was either. Ken langone Hank Greenberg or one of their cutouts. But what's interesting about. Roger Stone is not only how often and how easily he lies much like his friend Donald Trump but also how effective those lies are because they contain an entertainment value value that proves so seductive that they get circulated in recirculated over and over and over again. And it's not worth for separating too much about this in terms of the specifics of the client nine story but as a metaphor. I think it's terribly important. The whole idea of Eliot Spitzer and his black socks that a society idea that he wore those black socks the bid When he had these assignations with escorts is something that was wholly made up by Roger Stone? I know because I talked to the escorts but it's such a delicious story that even reputable outlets like the New York your times would reprint it and it's a story incredible political power because it Demeans Spitzer it makes a mockery it it makes a laughingstock out of him Now fast forward to the trump campaign when trump can you know insinuate and end or actually you know make up the most outrageous untruths and yet because of their entertainment aimed value they get redistributed and recycled over and over and over again until they have enormous political force. That's me me is something that's That's scary But also worth looking at And and a key feature of the of the client nine film the other thing I would say and this is probably GonNa get me in trouble but I'll say it anyway. The other thing that I always wondered about the client nine story and I don't know for sure whether this is true but there's another shadow figure that I wasn't able to include directly in the film But that is David boies. The the lawyer the famous lawyer. David boies is the attorney for Hank Greenberg. I always wondered given what we know now about David boies reaching out and a procuring a ruthless private eye firms for Harvey Weinstein whether or not. That was a job that he was given on the Spitzer case. I have no way of knowing whether it's true. I in retrospect I wonder about it. Yeah Roger Stone is just a character and I can't believe he's been doing it so long his tactics I think you're right. have suddenly become mainstream. They were dirty tricks but now they're Perhaps just the way things are done. That's right I think that's absolutely right in terms of comment about politics Roger Stone has managed to make Dirty tricks tricks that used to take place in the shadows of the political arena. He's brought them into the big ten. You're a documentarian and filmmaker. Your father was Frank Gibney Ebony. A longtime journalist editor author a famous in part for books that looked at power suspiciously like in communist Poland and the Soviet elite secret police. How did your Father Influence your work and your mission as a documentary filmmaker? I thought my father. I think my father influenced phones me. Greatly he was very proud of his Career as journalist even when he had become a businessman he was the vice chairman of the Board of Editors of Encyclopedia Britannica. which while it had its own aditorial mission was also very much about business job but he was very proud of his work as a journalist? Both as a kind of a truth truth seeker and is somebody who attorney curious I think also in terms of his career. I'm afflicted with his same character flaw wall which was that instead of the classic road to power which is to suck up and kicked down as you're climbing the ladder you know. He had a tendency to suck down on kick up and so as a result he was fired from a number of his jobs at time. Newsweek in life etcetera the I think perhaps I was wise enough in my career Mostly worked for myself because I think I would have had a hard time working for other people But I think I was lucky along the way in terms of seeing some of my colleagues who in some of their early films were flattered Very extraordinarily because some of their early films were were were were great and much-heralded item much longer tougher road to get to the position of prominence in my career and as a result by the time I got there. I wasn't as a willing Or Susceptible to believe the bullshit so I think I had that advantage and I do think one of the things I think about now and I make a a documentary about somebody and I make a lot of documentaries about abuses power and I think the Spitzer film is one of those ones that I'm particularly proud of because I think I gave everybody nobody there say Ken Langone. I heard him tell other people who loved this film. He comes out with very different conclusions and I would come out of it with but he he feels I got Spitzer ride and I got him And I feel very proud of that because it seems to me. You have to make films particularly when you when people are willing linked to to Trust you with their testimony that you have to be true to what it is. They're trying to tell you and to embrace the contradictions. It's a of that testimony so that you feel you could watch that film while sitting next to them in a movie theater and be able to defend everything that you did. I think that's a hugely valuable eligible exercise that that that That to seat movie theater exercise where when you're watching cut and thinking man I'm really taking the to this guy right now. How you think to yourself wait a minute? What he was sitting next to me? Would I be able to look him or her in the eye and say this is fair. That's my test. You've covered a lot of interesting subjects in your career and a lot of interesting people just a casually wondering here If you had access and budget and everything you needed of anyone living today who would you do a film about and why well and this is an impossible task. But the person I'd wanted to a film about is Barack Obama but I fear that I would be disappointed because I wouldn't get the Barack Obama that I would want to make a film about the Barack Obama. I would want to make a film about his one who'd be ruthlessly honest and I don't think he's is prepared willing or able to do that at this moment is career. But I've never seen such an extraordinary mixture of high ideals Soaring rhetoric and yet in my view SHUJI disappointing craven Political actions that ultimately led to disastrous policies and and he is a God knows the difference between the principals and the actions and so it always made me wonder why he chose the path that he chose at a moment. When he could could've gone high he went low and yet at our lowest moment he was also able to go very high particularly when it came to try to unite us? You you know in a in a in a moment of great rhetorical flourish So you know if he were to be honest Barack Iraq Obama's the person. I'd like to make a film about fear. Can't be honest. Well if you happen to make the film I will be sure to watch it. Alex Gibney thank you so so much for joining us today on American scandal. Many thanks great pleasure. Thank you so much. That was Alex. Gibney Oscar winning director documentary filmmaker. He wrote directed and narrated the film client nine rise and fall of Eliot Spitzer concern next on American scandal debut in December seventeenth. We're launching a new series about the plane fare Valerie. Plame was an undercover agent for the CIA an expert on weapons of mass destruction but in two thousand and three cover was blown when a journalist outed her in his syndicated newspaper column speculation accusation grew that it was pay back after planes husband criticized the administration from George W Bush and he assumed investigation would reveal that the leak had come from the the highest levels of government from wondering. This is American scandal. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did subscribe now on apple podcasts spotify Google podcasts wondering dot Com. Or wherever. You're listening to this right now. If you're listening on a smartphone tap or swipe over the covered in this podcast you'll find the episodes including some details. You may have missed you also find small. I from our sponsors. Please support this show by supporting them. If you like to show one of the best ways you can show your appreciation is to give us a five star rating and leave a review. I always love to know your thoughts and detailed reviews are one of the best ways for others to find the show. Tell your friends and family showed them how to subscribe. American scandal is hosted edited and produced by meet. Lindsey Graham for airship. This interview was facilitated by additional production assistance since from Jacqueline Kim are executive producers. Are Stephanie Jen's Marshal Louis and her non Lopez for for wondering. Hey I'm Rufus Chris I'm the host of wonders show the next big idea each week on the podcast. We bring you ideas that have the power to change the way you see the world this week next big idea club curator Daniel Pink talk with author Henry Timms about new power. 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