54. Michael Jackson Allegations: Why I changed my mind
Welcome back to the now. What podcast I'm host area foster. Bobby pheno Ikeda PA guy today we have a special episode in. I'm going to start out by first of all to get some news. If you follow me on at at now, what pot grandma Twitter, we're gonna release some news. We're going to be switching services, and I hope that you guys follow us, man. It's a big opportunity. I everybody here is excited about it at the at the podcast. And so we're was switching services, and we want you guys to be part of it. So the details will follow in the coming week. So just to look out for that. But today's special episode today special episode because it's what I want to start introducing into the podcast as well. So after after after you guys view, it let me know a comment if this is the kind of content that you like because I really enjoyed it. And to give you low skeleton of what I wanna do is. I wanna take a. Episode. I'm sorry. I wanna take a topic. I want to break it down as much as I came. So I wanted to start off with with with the topic of logic. But this one was a little bit more enticing. So what else do I wanna get? I was going to get right into. I'm gonna be ready down Michael Jackson, and the allegations that he's been going through that have been in the news recently. And when I was first. Thinking about getting into this. It was a it was a hot topic. And our no backlash. I'm gonna get. I've I've read both sides read extensively on this subject. And so I wanna kind of preface it with this. I think it's extremely important to believe. Sexual abuse victims and alleged victims, and I say alleged because we live in in in the day in time where we're not able to have the technology of black man where we can see her record is really really know for certain if something did or didn't happen. So I think it's important to to listen and to truthfully care about the the claims of victims. Now, would that being said, the caveat is I think it's our responsibility as citizens to vet these claims responsibly if you care enough about the truth of the situation. And will learn you'll during this during my little investigation. I learned a lot about myself, honestly. And what was revealed to me was that. I really have no business have an opinion on something that I have I haven't I haven't dug into we all have opinions, and they could be very flippant or they could be very. Well, thought out. What I realize it was my opinion on the Michael Jackson case cases, wasn't very well thought out. I had had no idea. Why? I thought the way I thought in. It's interesting because when I first went into this. I thought Michael Jackson was guilty. I always did. I always thought he was guilty. It was it's kind of folklore in our culture that Michael Jackson kind of synonymous with child. Pedophilia. Right. It's it's it's it's it's all these jokes. It's it's it's kind of it's interwoven with our culture. So I know I just never thought twice about it. I grew up loving his music, and I kind of always separated the art from artists, I've always been able to do that a lot of people can't which I understand. But me thinking that he was guilty of these crimes and. Me decide and do this podcast came to a head. And what I found out was as thirty two year old, man. I am. I have a different standard of evidence. That is needed for me to believe something. That's what I came to. And I watched the the Netherlands. That's what started this whole thing Neverland leaving leaving the leaving Neverland documentary. And when I watched it we can just we could just jump right in. When when I watched it. I. I'm gonna be honest. We'll be honest. I didn't believe what they what was being sold to me. And it's crazy 'cause I went in thinking Michael J winning watching anything. Okay. Here's gonna watch whatever already known for years. And I went in thinking he was guilty. And I came out filling uneasy like why do I feel he's guilty? This. This wasn't enough. For me the documentary wasn't enough of me. So it may be dig deeper maybe dig more, and I'll detail more of what in the documentary. Let me do that. And then what in the in my research, led me to kind of change my mind, and why don't I don't think he's guilty anymore. It was lot. And without further ado, I think we should just jump right in. So a little background to start off with. I'm gonna go through each allegation. And you can't really speak on isolated events as far as he was in the hotel and the doors close, I can't speak on any of that that that very that could happen. It could not happen. We will never know will just be speculation. But what I am going to do is. I'm gonna be I'm going to be focusing on the trial on the trials of the of the allege axed and the court cases of the posthumous alleged ex because all we can do is. We're going to look at I looked at the preponderance of evidence. And then I made my decision from there. It was tough. But it was it was a lad it was weeks worth researchers. I mean, I'm I'm reading through depositions core documents testimonies. It's I did I did a lot of probably did more than I should have. Which is why I decided to share it because I feel like the information wasn't presented to me in a way that was fair. So. There was there's gonna be a whole lot. I leave out to you understand. I really think that you can get a degree in the Michael Jackson allegations because there's so much nuance. There's so much every single little detail trickles off into a branch of other things that you have to understand within the context of whatever said point was so there's there's gonna be a lot. I leave out for people who really understand what's going on in these in these. And he's allegations. They they'll understand what I'm leaving out. What I'm not even out of everybody who's kind of just kind of interested. I feel like I did a pretty good job of summarizing. It. Who knows though was he so I think to understand tennis, Michael Jackson allegations. There's really four main allegations. There was Jordan Chandler in nineteen Ninety-three. There was Gavin areso in two thousand five and posthumously. Wade Robson in two thousand thirteen James save Chuck in two thousand fourteen so I'm gonna take each one. And in we're going to show you the evidence as to as to why I I have a lot of skept skepticism with all the claims. So I I will jump in. And we'll start with the Jordan Chan the case. This was the first alligators that kind of started the avalanche. And it started in early nineteen Ninety-three, and I'm gonna break down give you some times to try to kinda understand the context in which this all came about. So just a little brief background on how they met they met. When Michael Jackson's car broke down in front of a rental car place that was owned by David. Schwartz. David sources the stepfather of Jordan Chandler. He was married to the mother of Jordan Chandler. And a relationship and SU he invited into the ranch. And that's when the allegations golden coast started. Now, you have Evan Chandler. Evan Chandler is is Jordan Chandler's father. He was a Dennis. I'm just kind of giving you the the key players in all of this. Every channel was a dentist. He wanted to be a writer. He was credit actually credited for writing Robin Hood men in tights film, and he was in kind of financial straits. He he was he was struggling and allegedly yoed sixty eight thousand dollars in child support to June, his ex wife who was who was Jordan's mother. So I'm like, I said, I'm gonna give you time line. And what you're going to find out what I found out was every single allegation. Every single allegation is somehow some way tied to money and makes play why that is so. Why I'm so skeptical of that little nuance and every single one of these cases, so who was started out in June thirteenth nineteen Ninety-three. According to the rate Chandler book and rachana was Evan Chandler's. The father of Jordan his brother, he wrote a book about all these all these events, and he was there the whole time allegedly. So Evan reveals alleged concerns about the relationship between the sun and Jackson to to a lawyer name. Barry Rothman, who was a patient of his and there was a dentist, and according to the book and this in the exchange of of dental treatment Rothman offered to help him quote, unquote, end the relationship by their filing a restraining order against Jackson or custody lawsuit against Jim now, this is telling me in just from the gym. From the cross corroborating I did. So you have a book whose pro. Michael Jackson is guilty versus a lot of these documents. That are. That are pro Michael Jackson being innocent is. You have. Father who? Has a dentist as a dentist by trade in in his chair? He has lawyer and he's already suspicious in June. Enjoying suspicious. So he's talking to a lawyer zone and nothing nothing is done. But he's just he starting to kind of fish right, July, eighth nineteen Ninety-three. He I mean, he starts before before. I so happens there he kind of starts. Poking at June and David Jordan's stepfather and mother kind of poking at him telling them that he doesn't feel right about the about the relationship, and there they should do this, and they can do that. So for some reason, and they had the where without a tape the conversations that they were having and in this in this conversation. Well, I'll play I'll play a clip from you in. And this is the kind of stuff I found out just having to do my due diligence in digging that wasn't I wasn't aware of before. So here's here's a clip of that conversation. This is this is the stepfather talking to the father, meanwhile development, you need child sex abuse. Against the thirty five rules singer. Sandra Hughes has details on that. CBS news as chain a phone conversation. The is reportedly the fall of thirteen year old boy who is accusing Michael Jackson of more thing. And the stepfather conversation was taking in July one of the lease again their investigation. A record. To be fair that was actually doctored by Michael Jackson's legal team in released to the press to kind of try to paint the picture that he was an extortionist. The transcript and the tape is is all in description. You can you can listen to or you can read it for yourself. You have the entire transcript you read it for yourself and make your own assessment. I did that. And I still it still sounded like an extortion attempt to me because if I have if I have if I have my son telling me, or if I have suspicions that my son is is being molested by somebody. This is not the kind of rhetoric that I'm gonna have I'm going to be way. More upset. I'm gonna look to involved in thirties rather than to say somebody's things. So these are the kind of some of the quotes that I found kind of a dick list. If your if your son is being molested. He says, quote, this attorney I found I mean, I interviewed several in pick the nasty son of a bitch a fine. And all he wants to do is get out on the public as fast as he can as big as he can't do humiliate as many people as he came. That's crazy like. Anytime I've been through litigation before lawyers are are Grossman and no disrespect lawyers out there, man. But you know, if you're a lawyer that your job is to be kind of a disgusting human being like not. You can you can make the argument morally, it's you're supposed to just dig you're supposed to because in your mind. Your client is is telling you the truth, and you have to. You have to dig at the opposition you have to do dirty things. And so as a as a father of child has been molested. I don't even know why I'm involved in attorney at this point. It's it's kind of. It's asinine to me. Another quote that I kind of find telling was this is Mr. Swanson, David talking again, he goes Mr. source goes, well, let me ask you this to mean, let me let me ask you this. I mean, why why can't you mean, why can't we meet after I get off work in Chandler goes. Because I mean. It seems to me. It's not important, miss, Shannon. Goes seems to me it's not important enough you to take off off of work. So he's telling he's done. The stepfather is not important you to take off work. How is your son or talking about your son being molested not important for somebody to take off work? That's crazy to me. Last quote, last quoted, this is if I go through with this. I win big time. There's no way that I lose. I've checked it inside and out. Win. What? What are you? What are you trying to win other than the safety of your child? Like, that's it. Sounds sounds stupid to me. We're gonna continue on the time July ninth nineteen Ninety-three Dave Schwartz, and June Chandler they played a tape. To Anthony Pellicano private investigator Pellicano meets with Jordan. Backup. Anthony Pellicano is a private investigator for for for Michael Michael Jackson. So David in June are kind of in courts with the with the Michael camp at this point. So much. They play this private conversation between them which is telling because that ends up switching they end up not being in the same camp. But at the beginning, they are they then they give the tape to this private investigator. So the private investigator goes now. Now at this point is is conjecture. This is this is the president of instigators word. He goes and he kinda questions Jordan Chandler in. What he says was. Nothing has been done to him. And his dad is just after money. That's what public says about about an that's just conjecture, admittedly. So so we can only take that face value that can't be corroborated with anything. July twelve nineteen Ninety-three. Evan channel has his ex wife June signed a document prepared by lawyer bay Rothman that prevents from taking Jordan outside of Los Angeles County and letting Joe to meet with Michael Jackson, and his document also agrees to remit the money, the sixty eight thousand dollars Evan owed her in back child support June later says she signed the document under duress since Evan threatened that he would never let her see Jordan again, if she would not sign it. So now, you of see the back and forth between the mother and the father, and it goes on and they kind of go back and forth. And and they're they're obviously at at odds with each other. So we're gonna continue on down the time line July fourteenth nineteen Ninety-three Evan. China's lower bare Rothman contact Dr Mathis Abrams of Beverly Hills, psychiatrist and present them with a hypothetical situation. This is crazy about child molestation in reply without having met either the child or the accused just based on Evans words, Abram sent Rothman a two page letter in which he stated reasonable reasonable suspicion would exist that sexual abuse may have occurred, and this is in the rate Chandler book. So so this is cross cross corroborated on both sides. That's so come on you you you are asking a psychiatrist about a hypothetical situation. And then you end up and this is in that book as well. You end up using that as kind of leverage in a an attempt to negotiate with Michael Jackson can't before. Anything even gets close to courts. Audi telling in the second keep keep keep following July sixteenth. According to Ray Chandler's version of the events is the book, Jordan confesses to his father about the alleged sexual molestation and so- July sixteenth is when he is when he actually confesses to his father and his side note, if your of your even more interested in the story, there's a whole there's a whole thing about how allegedly he actually drugged his son in chair. Well, he's a dentist. So he was performing an operation and he drugged him. It's hard to hard to weed through to the gossip in this one, but allegedly this happened. And so if there's a whole a whole another day if you want to dig into that. And I thought it was worth mentioning but not digging into. So July sixteenth doesn't important. That's when that's when he when he confesses August fourth nineteen Ninety-three. There's a mean between Michael Jackson, the private Pellicano private investigator. Pellicano Evan Chandler, Jordan China. So they all meet and the meeting is basically about what are we going to do about this situation? Allegedly. They ask for twenty million dollars and allegedly. Michael Jackson can't went back with three hundred thousand dollars now from both sides. One side is Jordan Chandler's side. Why are we sitting here in the Goshi aiding anything to begin with that is the stupidest shit in the world, if my son has been molested if I have if I have a child has been molested? I'm not negotiating with you. Why why is money being talked about right now? That is nonsense. And if you're looking for Michael Jackson site, why are you negotiating with Dez accusing you something you didn't do. Well, this one I have a little more sympathy towards and now module at this point in my in my looking into this. I still think Michael Jackson's guilty. But I'm looking at it. He's he's an entertainer worth almost a billion dollars at this point. If not already. He's he's in court all the time for for for a multiplicity of things. He's always getting sued Michael Jackson. The most sued entertainers in the world. So all it is going on. And then all of a sudden this this this accusation comes into your across the desk. You're like whatever we gotta do to get it to go away. So I think the Macs with they were like all right three hundred Kate. And obviously that was rejected. So now that was early August mid August and August seventeenth nineteen Ninety-three. Evan takes Jordan deductor Mathis Abram where the boy makes his detailed allegations against my projects for the first time. And this is what sugar triggers the criminal investigation against Michael Jackson. So hit us out. So July sixteenth is when your son tells you he he was molested August eighteenth is when you take them to a psychiatrist not the authorities. But you take them to a psychiatrist and by law. The psychiatrist has to warn the authorities that a molested has taken place. So. Excuse me. You waited entire month. An entire month to do something about the confession of your son telling you he was molested. I call bullshit, you you're the full of or you're negligent as a parent, that's horse shit. I don't care even if my child told me, I don't want you to tell anybody at that point much. Doesn't know what's best for them at all. I prosecute for. There's a variety of reasons like pedophile is usually have a pattern, and they usually have multiple victims. So even if my child doesn't want me to say anything, which they allege if much out is woman to say anything, I have a more responsibility for all the other. Alleged victims like there might be other victims. So I have a responsibility like much doesn't know is best for them. He can even be not involved. But I'm letting people know it's. I call bullshit or negligence either one and I'm leaning towards bullshit. The more this shit goes on so August twenty first twenty second thirtieth nineteen Ninety-three. Michael Jackson is not he's on tour. Search warrants are carried out on his premises in Neverland century city and Mirage hotel in Las Vegas where he used to stay with them. And even on August twenty seven nineteen Ninety-three. There was a Los Angeles Times article that says videotapes seized from the homes belonging to Michael Jackson. Do not incriminate the entertainer and a lack of physical evidence alleged sexual molestation has left investigators quote unquote, scrambling to get statements from other potential victims high-ranking police source said on Thursday. There's no medical evidence. No tape evidence. The source said search warrant dinner resorting to anything that was support criminal violent excuse me. So so here you have a search warrant woma man is out of the country. He's out of the country. There's a search warrant they search all his properties and nothing was found. This actually becomes extremely important later on in the in the story of the timelines in a whole another case. But there's a article in the description of that of that article of the LA times saying that the that nothing was found cruising so September second nineteen Ninety-three evident June filed lawsuits against each other for intentional affliction of emotional distress conspiracy. And this is it just keeps going downhill now. Now now, the parents are suing each other. It's just becomes a shit show. It just becomes a circus September fourteenth nineteen Ninety-three. Larry Feldman on behalf of the Chandler's files. A thirty million dollars. Civil lawsuit against Michael Jackson, accusing him of sexual battery seduction willful misconduct intentional infliction of emotional distress fraud and negligence, so an entire month. After after your son tells you he was touched in molested you go through all of this. Nonsense take him to. And you you go through all this nonsense. Take him to a psychiatrist they file a criminal investigation. And then your lawyer fires a civil lawsuit. So what was important here is that we distinguish the difference between a civil lawsuit and criminal lawsuit. A a civil lawsuit is. Is entirely different than a criminal. And I'm I'm gonna break it down in Lincoln inscription for the difference is is there for anybody. Who's interested in the actual worth of we're law? So crimes crimes are offenses against the state. That means that even though one person might murder, another person murder self is considered an offence to everybody in society in society accordingly crimes against the state are prosecuted by the state and the prosecutor not the victim files. The case in court as Representative of state if it was a civil case, then the wrong party would find the case. So I say I say go out and shoot somebody the state. It's me versus the state. It's not it's not the family versus me, the differences in punishment is is is grant to so civil cases general generally only result monetary damages orders to not do something. So like a restraining order something like that. But the majority of civil lawsuits are strictly about money. It's all about money. The criminal side of that is is is is jail. Tom. I mean, there can be some fines, but as jail time, so criminal and civil are entirely different. Another huge point of emphasis, the standard of proof is different. And go ask any lawyer. I'm the laws is actually the link is in the description describing all of this stuff, but the standard of proof is extremely different crimes must be generally proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Where whereas civil cases are proved by lower standards of proof, such as the preponderance of the evidence, which essentially means that it was more likely than not something occurred in a certain way. So a good a good Brahma for you to measure. This is remember that OJ Simpson got now granted, I think he did it, but he got found not guilty in a criminal case in a criminal case, they went over all that evidence. Now in a civil case they turn back around and the the family one against him. He ended up paying like thirty million dollars. And then like that. So. That kinda just give you a gauge of the of the difference in criminal and civil so right now as as we as we have it Michael Jackson has a criminal case going on from the from the from the county of Santa Barbara, and he also has a civil lawsuit that he's that he's fighting from the chan- the family now back back on a time October six nineteen Ninety-three Jordan is taken to a site psychiatrists Richard garner. Who conduct an interview within the interview was leaked into the public two thousand three this is the most detailed account, but we have Jordan allegations that transcript is actually in the description for you to read as well. Now when I read I read the entire thing in and it's disturbing on his face. Absolutely. Like when you hear that the Gatien's? And and you read the words, but. I hate to say, but but when you when I read it. It became apparent to me that sounded like coaching the coaching or this kid is just beyond his years. And I'll give you some I that it's conjecture for sure. But it's just my opinion. You can you can look at it. How you want to and this is from the the transcript of Jordan and Dr garner. He said you still wanted to go on the tour. Yes. At the time. Why is that because I was having fun at the time. The things Michael was doing to me. They didn't affect me. Like, I didn't think anything was totally wrong with that. With what he was doing since he was my friend. And he kept telling me that he would never hurt me. But presently, I see I see that. He was obviously lying you're saying that you didn't realize it hurt. You is that what you're saying? He said, I didn't I didn't see anything wrong with him using anything wrong with it. Now. Of course, what is wrong as you see it because he's a grownup. He's using his experience of his of his age in manipulating, and coercing younger people who don't. Have as much experiences him. And don't have the ability to say notice when powerful like that. He's using his power has experienced his age is overwhelming this to get what he wants. Now. That's not as true right now. That's very true. What he's saying? If what he's saying is is is is the truth of what he went through. But mind, you that this this kid is at the time. He's twelve years old when he does this. So you mean to tell me a twelve year old kid uses lexicon? It's it's wild coercing younger people who don't have as much experience. Even I mean, just the reflection of what happened. I mean, these allegations were just a few months ago. Right. They met in may he's saying this, and what is he saying this October. So. The fact that you can reflect on it that fast and and be articulate with it as a as a twelve year old kid. Does it make sense to me? It could be possible. I could be could be way off and I could be wrong one hundred percent. But. It just it. Just sounds like the reason why I even think it's more a little bit fishy is because even from the Chandler book. Now, this is gentler side, they they said that after the allegations were confessed to his father. They never spoke about it again. So this is really his second time talking about it. And this is this is the this is the rhetoric that he uses to describe the situation he's using his powers experiencing his age and his overwhelming to get what he wants that's heavy for twelve year old. And like I said he's either really intelligent like above average or sounds like coaching to me and another one that kinda stuck with me was this a little bit towards the end middle end was the psychologist talked to talking to him. He says what about fares any fears of any time, he says, no sometimes people after experience of this kind of different kinds of fears. You have no fears, and he says maybe of cross examination, but that's. Oh, I mean, I have nothing to hide. It's just thought of it. So. I understand why someone would be in that situation afraid of cross examination. But. As a twelve year old how you even legally savvy enough to understand what cross examination really is like that. It's just sounds like a lot of these things were laid out to him. Even if it wasn't coaching. There was okay. This is what's going to happen? You're gonna talk this characters and you have a possibility of being cross examined by the defense. Right. Because we're making another game. That's that's that's what kind of sounds sounds like, man. I don't know. So we'll move on October twenty eighth nineteen Ninety-three now mind, you this is when the criminal case is still ongoing Jackson's attorney, Bert fields writes a letter to LAPD complaining that the tactics tax trying to manipulate children into sane incriminating things about Jackson, and they interview forty to sixty children. According to one hundred some sources that they have spent the night at his Neverland ranch no-one corroborated accuser's story, initially all the shows and said nothing inappropriate happened or suspicious have ever been done to them by Jackson. So you got anywhere from forty to one hundred kids. That the LAPD in their investigation have basically interrogated saying nothing happened. You can see the LA times article by MJ's lawyers attacking the LAPD as well. There's a side note of Jason Francia. He was one of the kids that they interviewed. And kinda bullied into answering. And you'll see you'll see why the everything about him is the link as well the transcript of when they interviewed him his kids even said language that you guys are kind of push. He said things like this while while he was being interrogated by the LAPD. He's he's the son of blunt block of Francia made who worked from Jackson and eighty six to ninety one who was among the ex employees who made money off these allegations by selling the stores stories, the tab Tableau it like I said all Lincoln details of his case are in the scripture. It's just not that believable. It was it was it was even saw in the two thousand five cases. Well, and as you'll see nothing transpired from those allegations in Michael Jackson's case. So it just wasn't that credible. You can read about it. If you want to, but I feel like in fairness, I had to had even mentioned it. So we're gonna keep moving on here. It's November sixteenth nineteen Ninety-three. The China's Chandler's lawyer, Larry Feldman files a. Motion for motion for trial preference, which is a special request to have a civil trial heard within one hundred twenty days after the motion. Is granted this request is usually giving the children under the age of fourteen. So here you have the Chandler's lawyers. Filing a motion that says we will our civil trial to be sped up in the next twenty days. The law says we can we can get hurt. So they know that that Michael Jackson has a criminal case on going with the with the with the. With the county of Santa Barbara. So they're saying we want the civil case sped up. This is good lawyering in my opinion. But piece of shit humid in my in my opinion as well. And I'll tell you it'll it'll reveal itself in a second November twenty three nineteen Ninety-three judge David m Ruffin denies a request by Jackson's attorneys, and which they attempted to postpone the civil lawsuit to allow the criminal seems to be held ahead of the civil proceedings. So to combat that the Jackson lawyers at the time are saying, let's put let's let's let's focus on the criminal. Let's focus on criminal has postponed a civil because if you think about it, logically, you have a civil trial, which if you lose you're gonna you're going to you're going to lose nothing, but money, it's just money. And you're Michael Jackson. You can make twenty million dollars in the weekend. If you lose the criminal trial. You lose time out of your life. You're gonna go to jail. So you have these two things that are on your plate logically. The choices. You want to put the civil trial after the criminal especially because it's a game of chess cord is just is just a game of chess. So say you lay out your civil case. Right. So you have to your civil case, I you lay out your civil case all your evidence. All your all your all your all your smoking guns. Well, the prosecution of in the DA are they're going to see what the evidence is. And they're going to use that and construct their case around that. So any logical person would say, let's do the civil after the filing motions to try to do that the judge denied it. Excuse me. So December thirteenth nineteen Ninety-three. Johnny Cochran is assigned to the case in in the other lawyer step down, and this is where the Jackson camp starts to push towards settlement. Is when Johnny Cochran gets on the case now, Johnny Johnny Cochran. If you kind of look into his background kind of at the time was known for that for settling cases. December twentieth. Nineteen Ninety-three three. Michael Jackson is strip searched genitalia. Embody is photographed in videotaped by thirties to compare them with the description Jordi gave them of CIA of Jackson's private parts based on the body. Search no arrest warrants was issued. So my Jackson was strip searched. He got pictures of his of his of his junk took in and this is a huge point of contention for people that say Michael Jackson is guilty. Is they say that Jordan Chandler had a description of Michael Janet Jackson's Jenner tell you that matched. And that's very telling if that's the case. And when I was research, I was very interested in dig into this. And this is what I found. We're going to jump back and forth from the two thousand five cases to kinda show. You'll see why in a second. But I I need to in order to kind of make my point here, so admittedly, so only a handful of people I've ever seen the actual pictures. They're sealed. So, but we know that one of Jordan's claims was that Michael Jackson was circumcised. So in this claim he said, Michael Jackson was circumcised. Well, Michael Jackson died in two thousand nine and he had autopsy and his autopsy is in Lincoln description. If you want to look over that as well in his autopsy, it said that he was not circumcised so Jordan one of Jordan's. Jordan descriptions, in of these pictures is that he has sole Michael Jackson's penis. And it was circumcise Michael Jackson's autopsy said that was not the case that to me is Hugh as huge even more so Jordan fan, but they're Jewish. So they they they understand. The importance of that action. It's a it's a it's a it's a part of their their theological beliefs. So now, here's what we introduced Thomson Thomson is a key player in all these allegations. He's a Santa Barbara DA district attorney, and what I found is that Thomson is kind of a piece of shit. He's real unethical in the way that he does things. He's obviously, I I can't call him a piece of shit. Maybe I take that back. But he's thoroughly convinced Michael Jackson is a pedophile thoroughly convinced that he's a child molester. And he does everything in his power to try to prove this. And he even twists and bends what he knows to be the truth to try to kind of stick him. And what I found out. It was Michael Jackson actually a song about him. It's called DS on his history album historian, and I had no idea. So we do that. I don't wanna get any kind of coverage infringement on his on his podcast, so Google, it's. Dose song. I had no idea that he did it. My Jackson was I hear writing this records on district attorney's. But I so here, here's what we have these pictures are you smoking gun. Now, let me walk through this. The nineteen Ninety-three criminal case was never closed in nineteen ninety-five. Tom Sneddon actually helped helped amend a California law that says testimony from child under twelve can be admitted as long as there's evidence to support it. So while this nineteen Ninety-three case was going on the pictures could not be used because you have the six amendment which says you have the right to confront your accuser. Shoot me. Now, what this what this amendment did in the California law, and they got implemented in nineteen ninety five says that that. You can use a child statement without the without the kid being there. The kid has to be there as long as there's evidence to support it. Now. This was exactly the case for for Michael Jackson. And that that California evidence code thirteen sixty that's in the Lincoln inscription. If you wanna if you wanna use that so that so it superseded the six amendment now, let's jump to the two thousand five case. And we're going to get into the FBI files as well. So the FBI files they helped eight it investigations with this with this with Michael Jackson for for years, and in in one of these documents, they say that they interview Jordan, Jordan, Chandler. And now, we're in the two thousand five case we're going to jump back and forth, and I'm gonna wrap it all just trust me. So they they interviewed Jordan Chandler. And he sa- he said he didn't want to testify for the two thousand five case. He was he was uninterested in testifying, and even he'll he would pursue legal action. If they kept messing with them. And at this point, he's twenty five is so. Tom Sneddon at the end of the two thousand five case, and we're going to get to. But Thompson at the end of the two thousand five case. They're losing they're losing that trial. And they're losing they're losing it big. And he he knows. So he's he's kind doing desperate things at the end of the case in one of the things that he does is he tries to admit these picks into evidence to kind of try to sway the jury because the judge can throw things out all he wants. But if the jury sees the evidence is your human it's going to stick with you. So Michael Jackson's legal team knew what he was doing. And they filed a motion to this mission that that motion is in the is in description, if you wanna check it out to I'm Marie part of it is said. The prosecution had the opportunity to request the court's permission to introduce this evidence in the case in chief. If if it believed it to be admissible it did not do. So the prosecution filed a section eleven eight motion that was more than sixty pages long that made no mention of this proffered material. The prosecution has been aware of this material for more than a decade. Mr. Jackson has consistently denied the allegations that he molested Mr. channel Chandler. The only reason why the prosecution did not introduce this testimony in case and chief under eleven eight is that the court would not have allowed then for the exactly the same reasons that the court cannot allow it now this is a blatant attempt to prejudice the jury with dramatic testimony at the end of the trial. So so the judge do it out. But the Michael Jackson team, they they knew that this evidence could not even admitted for the same reason that it couldn't be admitted. Then right, Jordan, Jordan couldn't testify. So he's no longer twelve. So that law doesn't apply to him anymore. So Sneddon knew he was going to testify sned. New Georgia wasn't go testified. Tom mezro knew he wasn't going to justify was Tom mezro is is Michael Jackson's lawyer in two thousand and five everybody knew he wasn't going to testify, but he just threw it in there as a kind of a slight. And it's kind of like dirty dirty move now jumping back on the time line. January fourth and fifth. Larry Feldman, the lawyer in the nineteen Ninety-three case for Jordan Chandler fouls emotion in which he gives Jackson a multiple choice. Request Jackson may provide copies of the police photographs made of his body during the strip search and December twentieth. Submit submit to a second search or the court may bar the photographs from the civil trial as evidence so. What that means is the Jordan Jordan challenge lawyers are saying either because they don't have the pictures there the states now and Michael Jackson's team are releasing them in the state is releasing them. So if you're if you're solidified at your client is telling the truth, why would you why would you kind of play the game of I either either either submit to another search or we're going to bar those those photographs out of evidence, why wouldn't you want those photographs to to be emitted into your case in nineteen Ninety-three? If you think your client is telling the truth, it's a it's a bluff to me that says, he you don't think that your client is telling the truth that doesn't make any sense. Why would you do that? So to kind of recap about the pictures Jordan says circumcise it is not circumcised to grand juries didn't deem evidence enough ten dight him in the nineteen Ninety-three case and the two thousand five case when Sneddon did introduce him back. This is this is the motion the quotes that he used an in the motion to try to admit the evidence in the first place. He said the photographs reveal the Mark on the right side of the defendants penis at at about the same relative location as the Dr blimps located by Jordan Chandler on his drawing of the defendants wreck penis, I declare the penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true. And correct. Except for those statements made on information and belief into those statements, I believe them to be true. So two things with that you using kind of AIG ambiguous language of at about the same relative location as the dark blemish located by Jordan Chandler. And then you say, I believe them to be true. Meaning you never got him cross corroborated with any kind of specialists is never been checked by anybody else. It just it doesn't sound to me. Like, this is your smoking gun. This is this is the thing that's supposed to put him away. And this is the kind of stuff that you're doing. I don't I don't think I don't think I think they knew that that those picks didn't match I think they knew that. Okay. Back on the time January twenty fifth nineteen ninety four an out of court settlement is Reese in the civil case between Jackson and Chandler's. The settlement was illegally leaked to in two thousand three and we know the amount paid was around fifty million dollars. But the criminal investigation was still ongoing. And there's a LA LA times article. In nineteen ninety four that that states that that says that criminal case is still ongoing detailed the settlement. The settlement is actually it's in Lincoln inscription. You wanna read through that too? And the Santa Barbara and Los Angeles grand juries. Heard had hearings in the in the Jackson investigation. Both grand juries this band without indicting him. So despite the investigators refused to close the case, they still tried to convince joy to testify. So here's so here's here's where it's funny to me man, you have a criminal case that's still ongoing you settled the case the cases cases now settled. Jordan, Chandler, Evan Chandler, and June Chandler, none of them testify. They all they all after the settlement. They all say, they don't wanna testify the criminal is still ongoing. Civil case is settled the criminal is still ongoing, and you could still prosecute. You can still you could get your fifteen million dollars, and you can still put this man behind bars, and you refuse to that. Is that is? Let's go, man. Twenty thousand ninety four to Santa Barbara district. Attorney Thomas netted and the Los Angeles Angeles district. Attorney Kilgore said he make an official statement regarding the status of Michael Jackson investigation. They inform the public that Jordan Chandler is unwilling to testify there for they are unable to file charges. Gil Garcetti admits that the eighteen month long investigation did not lead to anything incriminating against Jackson, and he states Michael Jackson is presumed to be innocent as any citizen in in this room. If they are not convicted with crime, we are not charging Michael Jackson with a crime. But you have to evidence of the pictures. Right. Like, you don't even indict this. This is why this whole case is fishy to me. So this is the big question. The big question is why settle if you Michael Jackson. Why settle if you're the channels? Why settle? Well, let's go. Let's look at both sides. If you Michael Jackson. This is this is why you settle. From the settlement. This is what it says the actual agreement. It reads this this confidential settlement shall not be considered as an emission by Jackson that he acted wrongfully with respect to the minor. So there's no admission of guilt in the settlement. Also, there's no language in the settlement. That stops the Chandler's from testifying against him in the criminal case. That's telling them the criminal investigation was still going on during the settlement. Initially, Michael Jackson's lawyer, I tried to postpone the civil till after the criminal the judge said, no there was a law change after Michael Jackson's case that civil proceedings would be subsequent to criminal, which is how should be. That's what happened with OJ OJ was tried for criminal. Then he was tried for civil. But for Michael Jackson, for some stupid reason, he got tried with the civil first, and then the criminal, which is asinine. The logical option was to settle for Michael Jackson. Why do you settle? Well, why do I said it was because I have a criminal case that's ongoing while be fighting for my life. Remember his attorneys tried to postpone the judge said no at that time. There was no law got amended after Michael Jackson's case. So I was supposed to lay out all my evidence to try to fight this civil case. And then have the prosecution for the criminal case CO, my evidence just said this book. I'm walking to wire. It was logical to settle like I'm not gonna if I'm fighting for my life. I'm not gonna put this evidence on the line. So it's like, okay. Let's settle. Let's get this out of the way since it's going to happen. Anyway, let's get it out the way it makes so much sense to settle given the laws that are involved. Now, we go to the channel that why do you settle? And this is I can't. I couldn't find an excuse. I tried. I I hear what they said. They said that they were there were afraid for their life. There was threats on their lives from Michael Jackson fans and things like that. That's why they didn't pursue criminal charges. I cannot fathom that as a father. I can I cannot fathom that if somebody has violated my child and. For some odd reason we chose to push for the civil I which is a another conversation in his though, but we chose to push the civil I and we won now. If if I believe that. I don't even care if we believe we can win and quarter. Not that doesn't bother me. I'm tr-. I'm throwing the book at him throwing the singer. I'm trying to get this man off the streets it as if I don't physically physically Hama, I talking about me I'm going to try to how might go to jail. But I'm not letting them skate because I got fifty million dollars. Fuck that money. I I can't I can't I cannot intellectually defend why the challenge was settle. Maybe I'll can I cannot and it gets a little bit deeper before we wrap this case up. I know we kind of we kind of long winded. We almost like an hour in November twelve nineteen ninety-five Jordan challenge. Jordan, Chandler files. Immense at four Messer patient from his parents. So so after after they settle at everything settles down he goes, any files for Manson patient away from his parents. So he's living by himself. That's crazy. August fifth two thousand five were jumping ahead now. Apparently, they reconciled Jordan Jordan, China attained a temporary restraining order against his father. So I guess they get into and in New Jersey filed a restraining order now granted that case was was dropped. But that's what kind of friction they had in their family June twenty fifth two thousand nine Michael Jackson passes away, November fifth two thousand nine. So this is months afterwards. Evan Chandler committed. Suicide he shot himself. So. It leaves suicide. No, I know that's. Correlation. Causation I get it. It it it might not be linked. But it's telling that four months after Michael Jackson passes away. He commits suicide will never know. He could have had a mental condition. I don't know. But it's worth noting. I couldn't not leave it in this. So off audit wrapped up. That's that's the Jordan channel case. Like like, I said there's so much more intricate details that that go in there. It's it's a lot. But to me, it looked like a successful extortion attempt it from from Jordan, China's pictures to to Evan Chandler's attitude throughout the entire case. You read the descriptions the transcripts. It's it's you go you go to lawyers before you go to the police when you feel like you your kid is being touched is things like extortion to me. I can't see it anywhere. The way I looked at all the evidence. That's just where I'm at with it. You can make your own assumption. If you will, but we're gonna move. On. That's that's my assessment of that case we're going to go on the two thousand five ellegation, which is given viso. Now, this one is probably going to be a little quicker because although it was the most publicized case that Michael Jackson head. It was the mole. It was the weakest one and his is buff. I could say that off top anybody who's actually dug into this case at all. It's laughable that this even got brought to court. It is it is ridiculous, man. I think as an accumulation of Thomson and the persistent. Reputation that Michael Jackson hailed after the first allegation. So we'll get into it. But it's it's pretty it's pretty weak, man. So given our visa was a kid he got cancer, and he was holding benefits at the laugh factory. And he met some people when they wanted to get in contact. He he he mentioned he wanted to getting contact with Michael Jackson, and he ended up getting a contact. Michael Jackson, talked him on the phone. And then at that meeting them the men person for the first time after the first round Gavin's chemotherapy, they visit Neverland and it was on that first. Visit that first visit Gavin and star was his brother Gavin star. They asked to sleep with Michael Jackson bedroom. And this was the night that was referenced in the two thousand three Martin Bashir documentary, which we're gonna talking about we're gonna talk about in a second. But let me backtrack. We're gonna catch you back up to that point. May two thousand one Gavin's father and mother decide to separate in. According to Janet visa, which is the mother of Gavin corden her two thousand five testimony. It's because he physically abused her and the children and becomes an important though. A little later on now August two thousand to September two thousand two after the first time they actually meet they don't really have a lot of contact between each other until the shooting of the Martin Bashir documentary. Now, the Martin Bashir documentary is a case study by itself. So one of those things we trickle down, but basically marmot share approach Michael Jackson to do a documentary, and it was kind of. Dishonest. How he did it. He he wanted. He did it under the guise of wanted to show Michael Jackson. And this is why Michael Jackson. Agreed everybody knew at the time. I didn't do a lot of interviews because he was all over the tabloids. It was just gross. I didn't do a lot of interviews. But Michael Jackson will he had aids benefit. He had a lot going on with kids that he kinda wanted to shine and light and kind of answer. Critics to say, I'm doing all this stuff. Like, this is what the world should be doing as well. So that was kind of the guys into which Michael Jackson led him follow him around for months at a time. Now, what ended up happening was it became kind of all about marchers curiosity or or suspicion of of Michael Jackson's behavior with kids so design is how it happened. And even when you watch so Michael Michael Jackson was smart enough to every every single time. Mamba shares film crew was filmed Michael Jackson. There was another camera setup on the side that was. Michael Jackson's and so when you review that film mumber shares extremely nice in his extremely forthcoming. He's just kinda praising Michael Jackson. All the time said, you're you're you you do you do great things with these kids a lover to do with these kids dig into accident asking real journalists the questions and then to turn to turn all around. And if you see the living with Michael Jackson documentary, it was the exact opposite. Michael Jackson was hurt. And it did a lot of damage by the worst decision. Michael Jackson is ever made allowing documentary to to to be in his life. So. The the big part of the documentary was it comes out of about about an hour in and he's with the our visa families with governor viso, and he's kind of explaining the situation. Of them sleeping together. And so this is a this is a portion of that clip when you stay here. Do you stay in the house? Do does Michael let you enjoy the whole premises. One night a student as saying bedroom. Eight let me see in the bedroom. And I was like Mike we say sleep on the bed news. I use even sleep like, no, no, no, no. You use it. And then he finally said, okay. If you love me to see. As I all, man. And so I finally slept on a bit little fun. And I I thought on the floor was hooping bag. No. He fact the whole of like it's of the floor. But my cool you're a forty four year old man now. What do you get out of this? What do you get out of it? He's four. Yeah. Four I love. I feel see I think what they get for me. I get from them. I I've said it many times my greatest inspiration comes from kids every song. I write every dance. I do all the poetry. I write is all inspired from that level of innocence that consciousness of purity and children have that. I see God in the face of children. And man this love being around that that all the time. That's creepy. Right. As a sounds. It sounds creepy at a surface. But when you dig into it a little bit more the sting, isn't as is an as deep. So there's a guy by the name of Frank Cossio. Frank Cossio was Michael Jackson's assistant. And so he wrote a hero a book called. I think it's Michael Jackson, my friend, my friend, Michael. And that's the link of that isn't a description as well. So jackson. He didn't sleep in the same bed as Gavin in star on that night that they that they were talking about it at that night that they were talking about Jackson and Frank Jackson didn't really trust. The visas. Right. He he kind of felt there was something off detail about Frank. And so that that night that they that they all slept in the room together. That's on that documentary by Jackson asked Frank to sleep in there with them so Mike in Frank slept in the set on the floor in our visa slept in the bed along with Mike two kids, two young kids. There's a three year old and a two year, so Princeton Paris, they both they all they all on the bed all them with on the bed, and there was on the floor. So that kind of context is what I noticed is reiterating theme that the media likes to leave out to kinda try to paint this picture like I'll never defend Michael Jackson sleeping with kids because that's not how I rate as human being. I can't defend it because I wouldn't do it. But when you look at everything in the context of who what Michael Jackson was it makes sense. And I don't I don't I don't find it heinous. When I look at all the evidence, I like that if that. Think about if that's put in the context of that clip. There's probably not the Oprah that it was in this case. This whole case doesn't doesn't happen in. Here's why. So in in in Franco's book he details. He so Michael has to sleep. He's talking to the cages I'm sorry. You can't stay in his room. Gavin star kept begging I kept saying, no. And then Janet our visa, the mother said to Michael they really wanna stay with you. It's okay with me, Michael relented. He didn't want to let the kids down his heart. Got in the way, what he was fully aware the risky said to me Frank of they're staying in my room. Excuse me. You're staying with me. I don't trust this. I don't trust this mother. She's fucked up which is well, I was totally against it. But I said all right. We gotta do we gotta do having me there as a witness would safeguard Michael against any shades. Shady ideas, there might have been harboring or we were both naive enough to think and their testimony actually corroborated them all sleeping in there as well. So this is why it's kind of kind of nonsense that that this even. Even got kicked off so to he he mentioned gender visa, general viso was Gavin's mother. And to kind of understand. This case you have to understand her. She's a big she's a big part of it. So genitally viso. In September twenty fourth two thousand one and this is Tom Meszaros plan in in the two thousand five case to kinda go after the character of these people because once you dig into the character, these people a lot of the this alleged stuff that they that they're accusing Michael Michael Jackson of doing. There's a trail of in their past in and we'll go over to little bit in September twenty fourth two thousand one. There was a settlement reached with JC Penney. Whichever with janitor. Visa, so apparently Gavin was caught stealing to uniforms from JC. Penney tussle ensued. And then in there fighting tesla security guards and she accused him of sexual abuse. She said they twisted her nipples. She ended up getting arrested. And there were there were pictures taken and a week later. She shows that would bruises saying that they came from the JC Penney guards. And it was later revealed by Mary Holzer. Who office paralegal that worked for Feldman attorney that was with them during that JC Penney case and that that link is the description as well, she said that. That Janet told her that that it was a lot of that that that whole that whole thing was a lie. And it was it was her husband that actually put the bruises on her face. Interesting. So they settled for I think it was like around one hundred eighty thousand two hundred thousand dollars they settled JC Penney case she got divorced from a husband. And and that's when she revealed herself that she said the bruises came from a husband in that divorce. She said it was her husband that did it. So she she lied on trial in JC Penney case, and after she got the settlement money, she went file for welfare. So then she got she got caught with welfare fraud. Is a is a wild. It's a Wild Thing. So let me let me take you back to this. So the schist schist on his documentary airs in February Michael Jackson flies, the family out to do a press conference kind of say, oh nothing crazy win on. So the family comes and in there. They plan to do this press conference MJ's PR team ends of saying, you know, what forget about it. It'd probably be too much. Let's just let's just put it push it to the wayside. On the way back from Miami to LA day alleged that Michael Jackson licked Gavin our visa on the forehead while he was sleeping, and I think it was his mother or brother that saw it. I've looked back in my notes, but. This thing about that. You Michael Jackson. There's a shit storm PR storm. This is your second child molestation allegations you fly the families out to say nothing was going on and on the way back on the plane. You get to licking them on ahead. Abusing him. It don't make no sense, man. It just doesn't. So in the midst of this when they get back to. To to Neverland LA. This is when their visas claim that Michael Jackson is they're they're being held captive by him in Neverland. Here's the funny part in may two thousand three she got visited by child protective services. She visited a lawyer. She got visit by child protective services because of the thing. And she said nothing was going on Mike great to them. She visited a lawyer. This is when it started going down here, she visited the lawyer. To try in say them. I actually was holding the belongings of them. This is later on she visited a lawyer and never tells anybody about the allegations never tell anybody that they're being held captive on top of that they have receipts of her going shopping. They have they have so much evidence of her. A calling out like visiting people. And you never mentioned anybody that you're being held captive. The storage is falls flat on his face and the deeper you get the more full of shit. It looks like and so when you get into the actual allegations, I employ if you're interested in this. And you don't think this is bullshit. But just from what I'm telling you redo court transcripts read the court transcripts of Gavin and star his brother, and this is contradictions galore like initially. They said in their complaint that star and Gavin were both touched and later on with the formal complaint and later on they there's no mention of it in in the case. There's no mention of it and Tommaso. He exploited all of this. And this is why you'll see goes on this this this par- Gavin. I'm giving you a small sample sets of how much these kids were just all over the place Gavin during during his testimony. They're talking about Michael Jackson's vitiligo. He goes Tom has says in you knew that that that disease was causing patches of white and Brown on his skin. Right. Yes. I guess end. He said, I don't know. It's not like I was making fun of yesterday. If that's what you're trying to imply. Well, you knew that his skin is vulnerable to sunlight, correct? Yes. And that's why you see with an umbrella. Correct. Yes. And you also knew because of the patches that appear from his skin from that from that disease. He he does sometimes put some makeup on. Right. And he says, I didn't know about patches. I I thought he was I thought it was just all white. So he's a guy that you've seen naked. You don't know about the vitiligo one it's all over the news years ago to you. You've seen them naked. Come on, man. Here's star his brother. This one's a little bit. Winded. But it's it's it's just well, so. Is thomas. Rowe again. Well, when you met with the psychologist Stanley cats, you also describe what you claim happened in Michael Jackson's bedroom. Right. Yes. Would you agree that you've given different descriptions almost every time that you've described it? I don't remember exactly what I said. Well, you've given different descriptions about what Michael Jackson was wearing. Right. I don't remember exactly what I said you've given different descriptions of what Gavin was supposed to be wearing right? I don't remember exactly what I said you giving different descriptions about what you claim Michael Jackson did in the bedroom. Right. No. Well, there were three whether we're time you said Michael Jackson, put his hand on top of your brothers underwear. Right. I don't remember saying that. And there are other times you said he put his hand inside his underwear. Right. Yes. And there are times you said your brother was wearing pajamas, right? Yes. There are times you said he was wearing underwear. Right. I don't remember. And there are times you said that Michael Jackson touched. But and not as crotch, right? When was this? When you did some interviews right about what about what Michael Jackson. You claim was. Doing in the bedroom. Right. I never said he touched his. But did you ever tell anyone that you saw Michael Jackson in bed with your brother? He was rubbing his. But no never said that at anytime. Anybody know never said that Mr. Katz, right? No never said it to the sheriff's right? No never said it to the grand jury. Right. No, okay. Do you remember when you described for for Stanley cast the second time, you claim Jackson was observed by you in bed with your brother. Do you? Remember that? What do you remember tell us daily cats? There was a second time that you went up stairs and observe Michael. Jackson touching your brother. Yes. Did you tell Stanley? Michael Jackson had his hand in your brothers crotch. Yes. That's really not what you told him at all. Is it what are you talking about? Well, you told Staley cats that Michael Jackson was rubbing his penis against Gavin's. Buttocks. Didn't win the second time. Yes. Did you tell Santa cats that? No, it would would it. Refresh your recollection. If I show you his grand jury testimony. I know what I said, though, are you denying telling psychologist and the cast the second time that you told him the second. Time you observe Michael Jackson touching your brother in bed that Michael Jackson was rubbing his penis against your brothers. Buttocks. No. You never told that the Stanley cats. No. If I showed you testimony, would you would that jog your memory? No. I know what I said though, and see it's it's everywhere. They have he has no in granite. He's a child, but. It's everywhere. It's really bad and on top of that. He describes how kinda snuck up on them, right? That was a big break in the case in an another point of contention. The why people think Michael Jackson is guilty. Is that when you before you come into his room it like there's these kind of doorbells that go off of kind of letting them know somebody's coming towards his bed, excuse me. So he kind of says that he's he's he snuck up on them. And he saw this stuff. But there's no way that he could have snuck up on him because of those door doorbells, those doorbells were huge, and it was actually the evidence of of the prosecution that brought that to light because they filmed Michael Jackson's door doorbell knows. And it's just it is just that stuff is just everywhere when you read it s just. It's just everywhere. So. To wrap all of that up. And like, I said it could be more. It could be more. It could be way more. But it's it was just when the more and more I looked at it the more laughable got so after after all of that this is what we're to believe after the documentary drop. Michael Jackson started molesting them that that is there that is their allegations. Right. And. This is how this is. How asinine these allegations are where to believe that the documentary drops? And then that's what Michael Michael Jackson star. It's after after the shit storm starts that's when that's when he starts allegedly. Molested him. And to even further confuse you. Here's a video of them. Because my Michael Jackson's defense was kind of trying to do PR and try to show the other side of Netherlands since Martin Bashir fuck that off here is a video of the visas after the fact praising him in being kind of caught off guard a off Cameron and look at this clip. We, you know, how these Bush your, hey, you know, how shares zoomed in on on him holding hands do that the same things 'cause you know, because that's what mother yelling. Or father does with his son, you know, and they try to make it out to sea. Be something wrong in dirty faxer. Oh world camera of. We are. God these this is the Arctic's out how intensely stupid is that it's just wild. And the case is riddled with shit like that. So nobody story matches up general visa has three different accounts of when she learned of Gavin's abuse, that's documented or the case. We don't really know when she learned. She says early mid and late in the year, and they're all this different counts. It's ridiculous, man. Nobody stories matches multiple celebrities came out and say the family as a con, Chris Tucker. Larry King, George Lopez all say that this family has started to call them the cases so weak so weak that the the jurors wanted to laugh during during the case during testimony there's video of here taking up a lot of the parts of testimony. I wanted to just break out laughing. But I couldn't you know hurt. She was up and down up and down and the parts that I felt that she should have been more. You know? More motion without she wasn't. It's insanity man to be fair to be fair that there's a juror on that Trump thinks he's guilty that but just not of this case this house acquitted Michael Jackson of molesting a child. Are speaking out today in the wake of the shocking documentary leaving Neverland juror Ray Hoffman says he always believed Jackson really was a sexual predator during the deliberations, I made it quite clear to the other jurors that I was going to be leaving the deliberation room knowing that Michael Jackson was child molester. He says the defense created enough reasonable doubt for him to vote not guilty or you haunted by the verdict of not guilty. No. I'm not haunted by the verdict at all Michael Jackson was in a position to hire. The best attorneys that could build a case for reasonable. Doubt. And they did that. So here you have a juror that is convinced Michael Jackson's guilt of child molestation. But the case was so weak that even he said, I couldn't convict it's wild you have ten felony charges and for misdemeanors. I don't know if anybody knows anything about. Charges. If you have ten felony counts against you and for misdemeanors. The odds of you getting off are are really slim air, very very low man, you if those charges brought on me, and that's child molestation that ever gets brought up on me for whatever. The case may be and mama. I'm going to jail for something for something. And nothing he got off on all fourteen counts. That's how weak the case. It was ridiculous. It was a waste of everybody's time. And it was the big is probably the most publicized case in a history of America. If it's up there, it's it was just so bad. It was so bad and. The reoccurring theme that I found all these cases is that the media, and I understand the world we live in an how everybody kind of does the media now, and it's kind of popular to do. So but. The media was so irresponsible reporting this stuff that none of this stuff. Made the news none of this stuff because there was no cameras allowed. And there was nothing allowed in there. So it was just the height of the shark. Feeding frenzy of the media the blood hungry media. And they just want stories, and they had all day news sites covering this stuff, and they'll have any content so you have to invent content, and when you're venting content, and as a consumer I'm sitting at home watching watching the news, I'm taking this at face value. I don't this. I mean, the internet is is around. But it's not like it is today. It's it's it's really is really sad when you kinda documented how instrumental the media was in in slapping, his negations, Michael Jackson, not granite met. My man dad helped himself with always constantly putting himself in these situations. Like if I'm him at the firm. First one, you're not gonna see me with no more kids. Even if I was guilty or innocent. And I got off you're not gonna see me. No more kids this meat. But when I looked at it that to me that was an emission of innocence because he's saying and even said it I'm not doing anything wrong. So I'm not gonna stop doing what I love to do which is being around my inspiration and children were my inspiration because of the most pure form of of beings on his on his on his planet. But back to five case, it was as awful, man. It was laughable even jersey said so, but there was a huge point of interest. In this case that people that say Michael Jackson is guilty love to bring up, and I have to dress it because when I first looked into it. I was like, okay, maybe he's guilty. And he got over on me at this point in my investigation. So the point is the is the picks that were seized in the raids ninety-nine three in two thousand five. And they say Michael Jackson had child porn now. Childhood is a legal in child porn is legal. How did he not get indicted? How did he never get arrested for possessing this child pornography as well as you find out as I found out? He didn't have any. But if you have any why is still a rumor, well, this is why? There's a there's a. Sneddon was instrumental in this entire in both cases. He was a dude at wanted to see my go down. And so they were pulling strings what I found in the court cases, and they were doing everything that they could to to try to sway the jury and one of them was emitting the evidence that they found in his his residency. They found so much porn like heterosexual porn, and they found no Kilborn, but they found a lot of heterosexual porn. But what they also found were these art photography books in I describe him as our photography books now. But when I looked at him out it was super suspect. Roof. Funny point, though, was that there was a motion filed, and you can see all the evidence that was seized. There was one thing. Where where sowed a Michael Jackson's DVD's in all of his Avas, porn collection. Once pimps up hoes down shit. That she was hilarious. Mike was watching pimps hoes, Dan. That's larry's. But. To get back on a series. This is this is what they found. And this is why they're still rumor going on today. Michael Jackson, had kiddie porn. There's a book. There was three main books. There's three books. There was called. A boy a photographic essay boys will be boys and in search of young beauty. Now these three books. I I started thirties these pictures and in these books, and I was like oh shit. My guy pulled over on my head. And he is a pervert, this is this is why would you have these books? So I'm looking at the first one the boy photographic essay. And even the cover the cover has a a little kid standing on a beach, and he's he's he only clothes on. And he's looking over the water. And she's but and it's I'm look at these pictures are flashing. I'm gonna try to describe to from audio listeners these pictures are fashioned on a screen on YouTube. But it's it's it's a little kid with no clothes on land on rock another. Another little laying on his back swimming, another little kid with just tight trousers on overlooking. The water I'm comfortable looking to right now in it's just I immediately thought he was he was guilty. Like, just this alone. I couldn't I couldn't justify if my guy. One of my boys had has somebody's somebody's books, and I just in his in his possession or in his collection. I can't why do you have this, man? What what is this is another one? It's called boys will be boys in in the in the cover of four low for low blonde hair white kids, and they they got these titles swimming trunks on and they all jumping into the pool and the last one is in search of beauty, and it's this little kid with no shirt on. He's got his cross arms lane. Head on his on his arms legs later on desk. Now. On on facing service value. I like I say may have said it over and over. I I couldn't I couldn't explain this. And I was shocked. Then in fairness to the case I kept digging and what I found was kind of alarm, and man, there's a guy by the name of Todd gray. Who's a photographer that work with Michael Jackson from nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty two. And he wrote a book. He wrote a book called before he was king. And like I said this is an account from nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty two. So this is a little excerpt from that when Michael did find the time to relax. He loved leaf through the through photographic picture books. He would bring his favorite books with him on store and buy more books while on the road, the bus waited with increasing number of boxes as we left. The city the triumph tour beginning in Memphis, and he goes onto a count. But it's how we got the Dallas a few days later, I notice to two boxes then came to Houston. And by the time, we hit San Antonio. I noticed the score boxes being loaded onto the bus. He especially loved books on Hollywood glamour from the nineteen thirties. Richly illustrated children's books and coffee table books on photography. Michael would usually hold up in the rear of the bus. While other spent their time together in the front. I also I also preferred the quiet in the back, and I was sit down with him while he was engrossed in in a book of Hollywood glamour photographs from the nineteen thirties. Shoot struggling looking at a particularly striking photo. He would out loud say this is magic. They don't make photos like this anymore. He studied the POS. The is the makeup expression everything that went into a great glamour photo. So he just goes onto details account about how Michael Jackson was extremely into photography in a more and more that you dig the more and more that this becomes the case. And there's a lot of accounts of people doing interviews of saying his love for is cameras in his collective knowledge of Taga in general like knowing things about photography that an average layman person wouldn't know even in the Marne Bashir documentary. There's there's there's this part where he's shopping for art. He shopping for our end he he's with Marsh walking. And here's the clip of twos. Mike you love. Fannings, but what about pictures painting? Yeah. Paintings I like this because their bathing Apollo Apollo. Bathing excuse me. I want that there. And this one. Because we have this. I bought this statute the whole Marvis is bigger than life size. That's the bathing Apollo, right? Michael, definitely noses. Art. That one hit me politically particularly differently, especially as I found this section in in the case it hit me differently. I've watched a documentary before. But then I recall that I was like, that's that's intense. He I can't. I don't love art to the extent that he loved art. And that's what I found out. And why judge those books off as value? Here's another his another instance where Michael Jackson's ex publicist he was actually on Joe Rogan, and he's kind of explaining his love for our and how Michael Jackson sees the world is a little different than than anybody. He's experienced we ever meeting with the art director from CBS. I'm condensing the story there's lots more. But we're having a meeting with the art director, and she walks in with five of the most gorgeous portfolios you've ever seen in your life hand-carved cherrywood hand-carved leather, and these are from guys I know because I was I started in pop culture in the art business, and these were my legendary competitors. And and Michael opens the first page of the first portfolio, and he gets a square inch into it a postage stamp size piece into it. And he goes, oh and his knees begin to buckle. And he. Gets another two square inches into just lifts the page a little bit further. Oh, he lifts it even further. Oh, Michael is seeing the infinite in the the things that even the artists didn't see it with such Infinity as Michael singing. And by the time he gets to the full page. He's having full-scale aesthetic orgasm. I have never seen anything like this in my life. And remember the first two roles of science are the truth at any price, including the price of your life and look at things run under right under your nose as if you've never seen them before. And then proceed from there Michael is seeing the infinite in tiniest things, and you never seen a human with this degree of awe wonder and surprise anywhere in your life. And I will never see another human like that again in my lifetime. That's that's an intense description of somebody. And and the like, I said, the more you dig into his life, and and the people around him detail him like this. He was a special cat. Here's larry. Detail in his library. He was the one that did the documentary to kind of combat the narrative of the liberal Michael Jackson documentary Martin Bashir, he did one and he's kinda detailing about his librarian how. Yeah. Like over ten thousand books, and it was just huge. And he's kind of just talking about Michael Jackson and his expectations and what he eventually believed in twelve when I was hired to do the footage. I wasn't a big fan. I had always found it. Michael Jackson, interesting. I thought maybe he's a little eccentric. I liked his music videos as regards whether he was a pedophile or not, I didn't really know didn't know that. There was a twenty million dollars settlement supposedly ninety three. So I thought maybe where there's smoke there's fire, but I didn't really have an opinion one way or the other afterwards, I came away with a different opinion. And it just keeps going on and the more. You did we could be here all day. But this last one with especially to me, this is Wesley Snipes kind of detail in Michael Jackson talking about his love for our and his death. This is human being. One time in South Africa in this displeasure space happen to be having to be there. We sat up and we started talking chopping it up chopping the for like three hours, and he had a list of books lined up all on the floor. And I don't I said, you'll might you know, people just send you stuff days. That's what I read. I mean, he had everything from autobiography about COMEX live. He has shrieked Arab Indo Krishna Burti these inciting books, you know, that you would never imagine Michael was down. Right. We set in three hours man chopping it up about all of this for metaphysics psychology to manage treated it. And I was like looking at him night how they live. Manage visit. I'm telling you trick. The picture is is a little bit different. When you paint it like that. And. I wanna paint it both sides. He could still be a pervert here. Right. Like don't get me wrong. But when you have both sides of the evidence, which the media never does. You it allows you to form a different conclusion than just pedophile. And that's what I that's what I learned and even even more. So when you when you look at the dishonesty of of of the prosecution. It becomes even more prevalent. So I'm looking at. The evidence that was brought in and the books that were seized. Well, they only introduce three books. Why did they only introduce three books because when you look at the rest of the collection in the context with that? Right. It makes way more sense. And it's way less vulgar. And it's way less incriminating. Look at some of these are the works, and they're and they're flashing across the screen you to describe him from audio listeners. There's there's there's like nineteen thirties. Women in these in these dresses and make dresses in their speaking each other. And there's it sounds sounds wild. But when as we get deeper, it gets it gets a little bit, more understandable. There's there's there's children there's women in these any sexual poses on cars on on crosses in their their the naked in there's ballerinas. There's naked dudes. There's there's teenagers holding speakers. There's there's people smoking. There's old women old men pregnant women little kids teenagers. It's it's all of the above pictures of kids on beaches. It's it's gay lesbian. It's when you when you look at the entirety of of the context of what was seized from his ranch. It makes way more sense. And it's way less incriminating in it made me kind of look at for Taga free or a different way the way he described it was. Was way more beautiful way more aesthetically pleasing than I than I look at it originally. And there are people who are in art photography. I was not one this made me look at taco van a different way. And that's this is why I love doing these deep dives and the things because a learned things about myself. This was an and even more interesting part of this author of those books. Avoid a photographic essay boys will be boys and searching beauty author of those books that they submitted into evidence all three of those are in the library, congress the United States library of congress. What is the what does the library congress? It's a research lab at officially serves as the United States Congress and is the defacto national library of the United States. It is the oldest federal cultural institution the United States. The library is housed in three buildings on Capitol Hill and Washington DC. So it is it is kind of the. They said the defacto. National library of the United States. And it kinda keeps an account of all the great literary photographic arts of our country. This is the kinda shit that that is not displayed congruent with Michael Jackson as child pornography. It should be because it doesn't sound like the last two points content last point of contention of the Michael Jackson has child. Por- was there's two photos. Allegedly found of two boys one being Jonathan Spence. Who's who's supposedly naked and another with a boy with an umbrella with his pants lightly pulled down. Now, I don't know how reliable that is. Because it was it was filed in motion in emotion by the two thousand five prosecution now, we've discussed how misleading motions can be and. When I look at it. It does a I don't think that these pictures exist because if they do. Why didn't you use them in the cases the judge ruled on on the admissibility of prior bad acts. But the only thing introduced as evidence was those three books. So here, you have these pictures that could be incriminating, and you don't use them not only that if you have a picture of a young child that's not related to you. And it's not displayed in any kind of art tested way. And you have a naked picture of a boy that's a legal to have. You cannot have that. That's that's child pornography. You can get arrested for that those were seized. And no indictment was issued a Michael Jackson. He didn't get arrested for that. I called bullshit think. I don't think they had those. I think they use it as a scare tactic emotion. I call a hundred percent bullshit. That's the that's the but two thousand five allegations as you can see the evidence is is weak, and you can dig into a more for people that think I'm just banging for Michael Jackson, as I said, I went into this thinking he was guilty and looking for something. And try to do it as unbiased as possible. And I came out there the side. I don't see it. I just don't see, especially those cases. So that's the rebel. But owes two cases. And we bring to the last two which is going to be a little less timely because. Leaving lever line kind of details everything, and I don't have to go exactly into all the details, and we can get just into the cases. We get away Robson and James saved show. Now, just low. Little review. Wade Robson from Australia meets Michael Jackson when my projects out there. He wants to dance contests in to meet Michael Jackson. They meet him dancers on stage. Family pursues him to kinda for ways career subsequently. And this is when Wade says that he begins to molest them. So to kind of break this down in going into these allegations. I already know what the documentary did. And so I was I was looking for the anthem of what that was because I wanted to see the size as I saw the other the other cases. Everything was highly misleading from what I saw. And from. What was presented to me. Then the other side when I got both sides. I did my. Summation of end. It was always something a little bit misleading. So these are this is the kind of the misleading stuff about Robson in the documentary. The narrative of the film kind of lead you to believe that Michael Jackson. Courts kids, and he kinda like fishes for kids, and he lures any kind of lawers them in. And that's how he traps he traps the family into getting them to trust them. And. It's all about Mike reaching out to them. Now, what was kind of leading about that was it was really joy Wade's mother who is chasing. Michael jackson. I mean, they even when they were in Australia. He won the dance competition. It was joy who took him to say. Thank you. He he invited them up. They watched all the videos. In even in her deposition. She said that they they said that they would keep in touch. Michael Jackson said yes since stuff of waiting I'll keep up with his career two years past when she sent letters and she sent videos and in never heard anything, then she comes. She goes to away. And this is the nineties mind. This isn't this isn't today. So the nineties she's calling around. She's calling frantically what it is to try to get in touch with them because they're going to LA she's trying to get a hold of him finding it's a hold of him, which is a amazing feat in the early nineties of the days of phone books shit like that you gotta work for that. And she gets a hold of him. And they end up meeting up. The documentary happens. So. To kind of combat that. I mean, the you gotta look at the loss. The lawsuit in in Wade's case. He he's not. So Michael Jackson, soon MJ productions and the state of Michael Jackson. And there was a summary judgment issue where the judge actually kind of details. How joy was actually pursuing Michael Jackson and not the other way around because when in his lawsuit, you can't do a dead, man. So you have to do. The companies in you have to kind of prove that they were compliant in the whole thing. This is this is from the summary judgment from the way Robson case. It was the plane of his mother who reestablished contact with Michael Jackson through mistake os, MJ productions Inc. When the plane was mother and the plane of came to United States plans mother also requested Michael Jackson, sponsor planners family, request to immigrate to the United States. Michael Jackson did so through 'em. JJ ventures accordingly plaintiff fails to demonstrate a material fact in dispute as to the issue of whether the plaintiff was exposed to Michael Jackson as part of inherent relationship between Michael and the defendants defendants are therefore entitled to a summary judgment on this separate ground as well. So he's basically saying throwing his case out because you you you didn't prove that that Michael Jackson's companies were implicit in. Luring you in or fishing for you like the the narrative of the documentary. He threw it out saying it was you that was that was chasing him, which which is why none of this has to do with with Michael Jackson touching them. We're not touching. It's just a narrative in the documentary that isn't necessarily true. It's not like they're just coming out and saying they're truth. They're not just saying this is this is my truth. And I'm an I'm an I'm standing on their their currently in litigation that's an important part to to they just kind of gloss over it in the documentary. It's not a big thing. And I couldn't find exact numbers I've heard rumors anywhere from hundreds of millions to one point five billion one point six billion. I couldn't find documents to one hundred percent corroborated. If somebody can let me know. But it's it's a sustained substantial amount of money. It's a lot of money to be suing somebody for in any case in any case. And they kind of they just gloss over that's an important part of this. Story joy was kinda pushing wait in her deposition. She actually admits that Michael Jackson asked her to let Wade have his childhood now on the flip side of that. If he's saying that to let let me get some free time with him. So I can do my thing with them. That's that's that's disgusting. But it's a point of contention in the narrative of the film. Uncle Jackson was actually saying let him chew let let him do is thing. Which is interesting. Another misleading thing is there was a scene where way details. The last time. He saw Michael Jackson, and he's extremely I remember watching it for the first time and thinking damn micro strung out and it sounded like he was a drunk. He was he he got the wind out on field into the brilliant minutes cocaine liquid cocaine or some where he just like, it's amazing to me. He he wanted a way to bring him wine. But you're you're Michael Jackson. You're you're at least one hundred million and you need. Somebody to bring you wine like sell it sounded like bullshit then. But so this is kind of describing time that they saw him for the last time, and it's just real morbid. The kids are tug it on him. And he's just disgusted kinda like, man. I guess Michael just going through it. The interesting part is that is in two thousand nine when Michael Jackson died. There was a opus that was written. And Wade Robson had an entry. And he describes this exact time in a different way. He says this the last time I saw him was in July two thousand and eight I was Vegas work in show. And he was living. There me my wife and him and his three kids had a barbecue. It was the most normal thing in the world me and my wife had been a whole foods and bought stuff to cook. But when we got there he provided loads of catering, I said, dude, why do you? Why are you ring catering? We've got regular food here. I remember cooking outside while Michael sat under an umbrella. We had a great we had great times. And he was such a caring person. Most of all I miss those phone conversations. I still have my mobile phone with his number, and I just can't bear the thought of leading his messages. Bub-bubba? He goes on to say, this is an interesting quote. He says one of the one of the main reasons, I believe in the peer goodness of humankind. So that was in his opus in two thousand nine just extremely opposite ends of the spectrum accounts of the last time that you saw him as another point of contention in the in the documentary, and and. Another one is Wade's conviction of Michael Jackson that alludes to it. But he did a lot publicly on camera a lot. And like I said they kind of gloss over that in the in the documentary. But when you realize to the extent that he did and how he did it. It's it's really it's really telling its really telling. And I think when you look at Tom as Rowe who was Michael Jackson's lawyer and the two thousand five case he details. Wade strength of him in that case. It's it's known that he was a strongest witness and here he is talking about white robes them now accusing Michael Jackson of abusing him throughout his childhood was the star witness for the fence. He was very very strong in his defense of Michael Jackson. He told me in no uncertain terms. He had not been molested. He had not been abused that these claims were ridiculous. I mean this man was so strongly. Supportive of Michael Jackson, so powerful in his defense of Michael Jackson that just shocks me that he's changed his story in recent years. I just can't get over it. I mean think about it you're on a trial fighting for your life. And and the prosecution goes. They make their openness you make your opening statement. And your first win as you call has to be the strongest because the prosecution just heard all the bad stuff. You got gotta sway them because as human you. Listen at them like man, they come with them and your first witness, you call way Robson is you gotta bring you got your home run hitter. And Michael Jackson knows that he molested him. And he brings somebody molested on fight for his life. Second time around he brings out wait. It's while it's is really well, man. What when I looked into it because I didn't see beforehand. I don't know who wait Roberts was before the documentary. The conviction in weight is what kind of started sway me in think that. Way with line. Well, initially, I felt like something was off. I didn't feel like he was telling me the truth. But when I when I saw the conviction way. Previously to how he publicly admired him in in in bigm up. It is obvious to me that that Wade felt a certain way. I'll let you be listen to his conviction. Number that. I don't know that anybody who lives that life is not going to be your average, dude. Know, I mean in the simple ways, I mean, you live that live that kind of life, and that sort of fame from five years old you're not going to go about your every day like everybody else because you've never lived a life like everybody else. So how would you know, how to do that? So, and I think people take those simple things and turn them into something, you know, ten times one hundred times more strange than they are one of the things I noticed about you. And this goes back to why said you were stand up guy, we covered the trial and you'll one of the few people to stick up for him. Why do you think that was why was it important for you to stay because he's always been a friend of me? That's what you do friends tell the truth jazzman. But to me that he sounds like he more talented there to me than is in the documentary. I can't I can't prove it. It's just how fielding human. And how human is. What led me start looking at all the stuff anyway. So I could be wrong. But that's just what it looks like to me another inconsistency, which was a huge one to me is there's a scene where weight is trying to. Well, he is he's convinced to testify where he goes over to Michael Jackson see is his having dinner with him and his family which for one if you're a witness in a trial are you allow maybe you might be allowed to to to talk to the defense. I dunno maybe. But he's he's he's at the dinner with his with his family and. Any feel sorry for for Michael Jackson. He's not sure if he's gonna see his kids again, and he just it just gave him more conviction. And it's very. It's very heartwarming that he he wants to try to save him. Again is what he says Jacob. So we're at the ranch with all his family. Michael didn't look, well, he looked very sick his kids with air. Everybody was there. His mind was just in a whole 'nother place. I remember. All of us sitting at dinner. And. Paris his daughter. Just wanting to to. Wanting her dad's attention kind of like pulling on his arm and pulling on his fingers and daddy. Daddy, daddy. And he was mini. Just wasn't there. I remember that just feeling really sad. What if he lives what if he goes to jail, you know, these are the last couple of times that they see their daddy. You know? Which built my conviction even that much more. To to save him. I think that definitely helped to go into the. Courtroom feeling you know, that he wanted to support my. So as he tries to do that. There's a huge point of contention one of the people that were there at that dinner. Michael Jackson's family was ties Jackson Taj Jackson is Michael Jackson's nephew. And he actually tweeted this. He said if I was not physically there myself to women's this dinner. I probably would not have even questioned the store beat is supposed to give away the motivation to lie under oath to protect Michael Jackson. The problem is this dinner happened after Wade testified. Oops, he said. So now granted that's just his word. I I don't know. But again, you have to look at both sides to make your assessment. But one thing that I did notice them. What bothered me is? If there are people at that dinner that are dolts in are aware of the situation going on in your documentary. Why do you the person's that dinner? You have Tajiks end. Brandy Jackson who were both at that dinner, and you will them from your documentary. It. It doesn't make any sense if you wanted to keep journalistic integrity, and I don't think that they did in this documentary. Now, another another thing that was real fishy to me is the link is Lincoln description as well as when you when you read Wade's emails between him and his mother when you read those back and forth. It reads like he's fishing S's me. I like, I guess I looked at. I looked at it. Try to look at it by the and it just looks like he's fishing for something. I'm not gonna make too big of a point of it. But that link description if you want to check those out, and when I say, the emails it's previously. So from two thousand twelve on he's he's Email back and forth. Kind of accounting the events that that went down when he was a kid and it just. It looks. It looks interesting. Another thing that kind of bothered me in the in the documentary when I what I read up on the case is the cognitive dissonance of of him on trial and the two thousand five testimony was interesting to me. So here you are as a twenty two year old man, you're not you're not a kid anymore. You're twenty two year old man. And you're looking at. Given our visa who's going through what we know to be as sexual assault. Right. Nobody was there. Nobody knows. But you're a witness four Michael Jackson for a character witness now in the back of your mind. You know, he did these same things to you. You're litigating now says that you were unaware you weren't able to and you you're you're saying these things I didn't have the tools. I wasn't. I wasn't able to understand that it was sexual molestation. But yet you're defending him against these exact same allegations. Thomas. Rowe even ask them. What do you think about these allegations that that they said about you? And he said on intentionally I think it's ridiculous. You. I it's hard for me to sympathize with you have that much cognitive dissonance. I don't I don't buy that as a twenty two year old. It's hard for me to see that. Another big reason is in two thousand sixteen deposition. He was asked did you ever reach out to Gavin or his family for lying on the stand? He said no now this to me is the probably the biggest talent thing. So. After you had your come to Jesus meeting, and you realize that you were touched by Michael Jackson nowhere in the four or five year span. Six years now. No seven no one is seven years span. Have you reached out to Gavin or visa or his family and our policy is is I wasn't there for you? He says it in the documentary that I wasn't there for him. But why wouldn't you reach out to them? Why wouldn't you reach out to him? That's the first thing I'm doing if if I realized that I fucked up is I'm covering my trail of fuck ups. If I if it's possible unless you're just a piece of shit. I can't I can't fathom you not calling him and saying I I was I was wrong. I was wrong. And I should I should I should have been there for like that's to me. I don't know that was that was that was a big one for me. Now, here's where. It gets even deeper, man. Michael Jackson died, and and when I say deeper, I mean, kind of detail where Wade was when he figured out that he. He was molested. Jackson died in two thousand nine that two thousand sixteen deposition revealed an Email that he wrote to Jeff. Forget I can't read his last name, Jeff he's he's a co executive producer for. So you think you could dance and he says are you guys working on a tribute? So for Michael Jackson. So the day after Michael Jackson dies. You wrote an Email that says are you working on a tribute show? 'cause I want to be a part of it. That's limi- that is so slimy that that you don't even more. And this is a man at the time where you really care for you admire all and the day after he dies, you you on talking about some you try to try to profit off his death. That's as gross to me, y'all got it. If not. When you look at his legal cases when you look at his legal cases. It's it's disingenuous at best. He's doing the estate like I said the estate and the companies of Michael Jackson. They even go so far as to say, Michael Jack, m JJ production and empty J. Ventures are the most sophisticated public and child sex abuse procurement and facilitation organizations in the world and call Norma cycles, Michael Jackson's assistance at a time a Madam or procure of sexual child abuse victims, so. This is at at this point is when I kinda reached my end with maybe their tones Ruth. Because they're they're they're in this litigation. And when you start digging into the litigation and understanding the language of the litigation. You understand why they're kind of saying the things that they're saying now now, it's either causes a not now detail right here. In order to acquiesce to the lawsuits qualifications. You have to imply that the companies he owned in the in the people around him were implicit in the acts of sexual abuse. And when you listen to the language that they said, they said, I wasn't aware at the time. I wasn't able I I didn't know it was sexually abused. I thought it was they that's the kind of language that they're using. And that's exactly the kind of language that is necessary for successful at Gatien in this case, it could be no the way or a statue of limitations would be out. Now. That's either an extreme coincidence or. It just so happened that their time of events played out and the laws were written in their favor. I mean, you could be you could be the judge of that. But it's it's definitely interesting. Another point of contention is in two thousand sixteen deposition. No, he wrote himself in some of his notes, which is extremely. Pathological in the first place. Why would you write this? He wrote my store of abuse affects will make me relatable slash relevant. Quote is time for me to get my. One. I don't know why you write down on paper. To when he was asked. What did you mean by that in his deposition? He said, I don't know. I don't know what I mean by that which is a Crocker shit. If you ask me. These little things start to build up, and it just it. Just the character. Credibility starts to dwindle for me. And you kind of see in in in places where he actually lied. We could actually say he lied not just earlier when he was defending Michael Jackson. But also when during during litigation during litigation he says that he part of it says he did he was unaware that. Michael Jackson had an estate for him to be liable. Yeah. For him to be. Stored coming in at the right time. Eligible for him to be eligible to sue the Michael Jackson estate. He had he had to be unbeknownst to him that Michael Jackson had in the state. And so that's what he stated in his lawsuit in two thousand thirteen in two thousand eleven though he wrote an Email to the Michael Jackson state trying to get trying to trying to direct the circus or Lezo for Michael Jackson and the last paragraph. He said, why should I believe that? This job is not going to be too much for me. Because of all that I learned through this process, directing a film was completely new round that I ended up not being ready for but the dancing, dancing and choreography is what I have done my entire life. And I now know how to do this. And there are very few subjects I know more than Michael Jackson right before that he said, I am passionate passionate to do show. I wanna make an amazing for me you for Cirque. And of course, Michael. So that was in two thousand eleven months before he figured out that he was abused. He's praising Michael Jackson once again, and he also knew Jackson had in the state. So he's lying, and he's sounds like he's desperate. He didn't get the job. And that's what the theme is like he he's he's running around Hollywood trying trying to find work. And when you when you dig into that all a lot of a lot of Hollywood came for him. When he when he when he made these allegations saying that you kinda just burnt bridges in this industry, and you're going broke. And it's just it's it's really bad. I didn't want to get into the Gaza side of it. But that's a lot of his peers are saying that this is the last point contention man before we move on James, save check. But it was a huge one in the fact that they didn't put this in the documentary. Let's we know exactly what the motive for that documentary was in two thousand eleven around that same time he sold some of his Michael Jackson memorabilia months before he realized is abuse was again. So you remember that smooth criminal hat that they went on about in the documentary. He's so he sold that on a website called joins actions auctions. Yeah. He so that six twenty five thousand eleven and ten twenty one two thousand eleven he sold he sold Michael Jackson, bad era gloves. So these laws, and they're gonna be on the screen for you ought to watch them. For you to see him on you to he sold those both of those items months before he realizes abuse. And it was a big shift storm on Twitter, the investigation website and jillions auctions actually has a Twitter account, and they they were being asked about this. And they responded they said Wade consigned his collection to us directly. He was the person we paid when we sold his collection. He needed the money. Where there is direct. But they went on to say wait asked to remain anonymous and said that he did not want anyone to know that it was him selling the items in two thousand eleven but we do not agree to that and listed as the Wade Robson collection. He consigned multiple items in one of those to sell all items of his head value. So that shit is huge to me you sell in the memorabilia at the time means something you because you were you did not know that you were Abus, but you selling off the memorabilia, and this is what I think is horsh it about that that last thing to where he's burning all the Michael Jackson memorabilia, where he didn't burn smooth criminal because they already sold it, and he got money for it. So a lot of inconsistencies there's more like I said, there's more about way, Robb. I don't I'm running. I'm running I'm running really we want onto hours now. But it's it's just interesting ship and. And there's a lot left out in the documentary. And I don't think that documentary was journalistically. Sound? I think that they just wanted to tell one side of the story, and it's not it's not really what a documentary. My opinion is about is really. This was really more. It was more like propaganda when you dig into it. And even even if they're telling the truth, it's still propaganda because you're just you're just doing it to sell sell a side of a story without telling both sides, you're not giving an honest account of of of the events. We're going to go into the last one. Now last one is James save Chuck James Dave was the last. Victim to alleged sexual abuse. Michael Jackson, and he was he met him at a Pepsi shoot in. I think it was eighty eight and it ensued from their relationship pursuit from their same. You saw the the documentary. There's not as much on him. Because his case that hasn't en- didn't make it to the discovery stage before it got brought it out. But again, when you listen to the language that he uses the language that Wade uses it's very similar and granted. That can be the case in sexual sexually abused victims. That I preface entire podcast with. I think it's important to listen to people, and I did I listened to them with an open eye, and I listened to their to their claims, and I feel like I cared enough to want to dig into this case. So I've vetted the claims, and what I found was what I found to be dishonesty. And it doesn't mean that I'm not calling them liars. They could be telling the truth. I'm just saying I don't believe it and the burden of proof is shaky when you're dealing with sex abuse claims, it's it's it's tough. But when when you do it in the quarter public opinion, I think it's I think it's our responsibility to do it responsibly. And that's what I try to do here. And so when you look at James safes jokes claim it's very similar to Wade's and he had to head to appeal to the statute of limitations and the statute of limitations is while others read, his his his his claims clamps as set forth in the petition jacks. Manipulated safe. Check into believing from young age that no one would understand the relationship. It only once saved Chuck was able to realize what the help of therapist that his symptoms and his breakdown arose from childhood sexual abuse. And the relationships around in it is finally that he was finally able to begin to real recognize that he was the victim of childhood sexual abuse. And so. It is it is the same kind of language that Wade uses and I keep emphasizing that. Because I don't know if you've ever been into any kind of litigation as anybody ever sue of been in the lawsuit. When you're dealing with that person wanna one you notice the day after that, they've talked to the lawyer you've noticed the day in the reason is because what they start saying to they start using very nefarious language. They start using language that is not common lexicon. It's not it's not colloquially used. It's it's it's litigation talk. It's because from here on out these text messages are going to become court documents. And you notice it the day it happens. And when I first watched the film, that's what I noticed. I noticed that they were talking in litigation terms. That's what struck me. That's what really ignorant to start aside from their body language is is really to start digging into this. 'cause I was like it sounds fishy that doesn't sound like two people. Talking sounds to people putting together an account of what happened to later be introduced as evidence. That's what it sounded like to me. I don't wanna get too deep into the to the to the litigation, but they when you read the California child-sex-abuse laws when you read over things like equitable stoppable, and it's all in the description link it, basically. Basically is saying that you have after you're eighteen years old you have eight years to file a claim for sexual abuse. After that the statute of limitations runs out a less. The child abuse was unknown to you. If it was a to in you developed later affects in where it was kinda realized which again, it happens the people a hundred percent it does happen to people. Like, I said, it's either extremely. Coincidental that happened with them or and the laws are very favorable or they built their story around these laws and the more. I dig into the more. I think that it's the ladder. So along with all these other language, it's it's just very odd timing to me, and this is why in the documentary James says in two thousand five trial, they asked him and his parents to testify he declined, and he told his parents that Michael's not Michael bad, man. He's not he's not a good, man. And they didn't talk about it after that. But. They from that infliction. They knew she knew enough James's mother knew enough that Michael Jackson was was molested him because in two thousand nine she says in the documentary that when he died she celebrated she jumped up and down said he can't hurt anymore. Children. In James, save chokes lawsuit. He says it wasn't until two thousand thirteen and in Oprah says it wasn't until two thousand thirteen where he realized after watching Wade's. Coming out that. Yeah. That's what this was. This is why I hate myself is bodies buzzing all of that stuff. All those key terms. He he he said that in two thousand thirteen figure that out. So your claim of I didn't know it was abuse is kinda mute when you knew he was a bad man and your mommy looted enough. To it so much so that she knew that sh- that you were molested, but yet you didn't know what happened to you until two thousand thirteen that's a big inconsistency. My but just to me, it's. He's a bad, man. You don't wanna testify form? But yet, you don't you didn't know that he touched yet. I took four years to realize, I don't know. I don't wanna sound like I'm judging sex-abuse victims. But it just sounds fishy. When you couple it with these things that I'm going to detail in the second. In two thousand thirteen April twenty six two thousand thirteen James save tug was actually getting sued by a family member for some family business issues. He was getting sued for around three hundred thousand dollars. And it was. Purposefully omitted in the documentary as well. So like, I said from the onset of this entire podcast. Each allegation comes with some kind of monetary attachment to it there's never anything that is nobody wants any money. I don't want anything for Michael Jackson. I don't want anything from his estate out ever wanted. Anything? All I wanna do is tell my story that would make me believe you a thousand times more than if something is attached to it and granite. I'm not saying that you shouldn't pursue enclose have closure. How you wanna have closer? I'm just saying for me. It doesn't make sense you're getting sued by family members, but three hundred thousand dollars, and that's the links going to be a description as well, you're getting sue but three hundred thousand dollars and six to eight months later, you realize Michael Jackson Suzhou. I mean, Michael Jackson touched you. It's it's just it gets hard after all these allegations. It's like it's the same story. This is the last point of contention that I saw and it's making the rounds via the internet, and we'll get outta here, man. But is probably the biggest one is definitely the biggest one and. I'm gonna start with the clip. And the clip is is when James is talking about how Michael Jackson in him used to get into the sexual acts with each other in one of them was a location, and that location was the train station at Michael Jackson's Neverland ranch and listen to a clip. At the train station. There's a room upstairs. We would have success there too. What happened every day? It sounds sick. But it's kind of like when you're first dating somebody. Right. And you do a lot of it. So it was very much like that. On his face. That's it sounds terrible. It sounds awful. And that was one of the more believable points to me in the when you're when you're listening to it. It's just it sounds. It sounds real so detailed. And I was thinking about this, this documentaries, very detail. But. There's a huge problem with this. In James save checks own complaint. He alleges from nineteen Eighty-eight from nineteen eighty eight when the sexual abuse I began through nineteen Ninety-two, Michael Jackson engaged in all going sexual abuse of plaintiff, which James save Chuck. So in his own complaint in the court documents. He says from nineteen ninety eight to nineteen Ninety-two. This is when the abuse took place where the internet been internet got to internet, and they found receipts. So here's a floor plan got approved in in September of nineteen ninety three. I'm sorry. The floor plan of that Michael Jackson train station, the particular one where they have all the video in the pictures of that floor funding. Get. Approved until September nineteen Ninety-three. And if you look if you look here there is an AP photo in nineteen Ninety-three in says, this is an aerial view of Neverland ranch in nineteen Ninety-three. When Jackson was building a train station to resemble the main depot at Disneyland. The ranchers nickname for the fair to Landon Michael Jackson's favorite story, Peter Pan about a boy who couldn't grow up that was an AP photo an aerial shot in nineteen Ninety-three the internet found the floor plans of the actual building of the blueprints of this particular train station. And if you look at it, it was approved in September nineteen Ninety-three, and these are all the floor pants and to further corroborate it, I attached a screen shot. There was a segment about Michael Jackson Neverland ranch in nineteen Ninety-two that ran that had a aerial shot of Neverland ranch. And if you look there's some tennis courts, and if you if you go north of the tennis courses a trail, and you go all the way to the left, there's two bushes. And that's where the train station should. Be in nineteen ninety two. And if you look at it from two thousand nineteen now, that's where it is. Now, you'll north of those tennis courts, you all those two butchers. That's where the train station isn't if you and in nineteen ninety two that was not built yet that is huge, and you put that in your film. So this is a huge point of contention and it made its rounds on the internet so much sold at the director, Dan read even responded to it with a tweet, and he's had he had this to say yet. It seems to be no doubt about the station date the date. They have wrong is the end of the abuse. Well, my guy that that probably made a little bit worse because the ongoing litigation clearly states dates and more importantly a pattern of Michael Jackson dismissing boys when they became of aids. So that's the entire narrative of the film. The entire narrative of the film is he likes boys, and when they reach a certain age, he casts them off. They they said that about way with MacAulay Kokin and. The other little kids, and they also said it here in in James safe, Chuck's litigation. They say he would drill that into the plane of over and over again throughout their entire relationship. Michael Jackson, tell the planet was okay to lie to other people because nothing would happen. If you lied at her about the outer about the time the plan of turn twelve a transition period beginning where my projection began to focus attention on a younger boy Brett barn. So here you are implementing a whole another child into this who just decide no Britain note Brett Barnes to this day. Defends Michael Jackson. Here's a tweet of him reading that. I'm reading of him watching the documentary. So people are getting their facts from a movie now, I wonder how they feel about the documentary showing the grey alien invasion of ninety six I think it was called independence day. So that's Brett Barnett tweeting about the Neverland documentary, and you're implementing them in your litigation that directly conflicts with the narrative of the film of the dates and the. The station of where you were abused. That shit is huge is very huge. And I've yet to see a counter argument for Dan, Dan Reed is also he's even backtrack more. What he's saying is kinda just playing the what aboutism games like he says look at all the times Michael Jackson's slept in the bed with kids thousands of nights that has nothing to do with the claim that has just been debunked in your in your film. So what's happening is James save? Check is caught in a lie and the director is is back pill in trying to try to make up for it, essentially. Kind of concedes. But then just play the what aboutism game and says will still does other things. It's a shit show man, it's shit show. And when you look at I mean, we've been here two hours. Now, if you're still with me, I appreciate it. But I I went into this case for weeks. I like I said there's a lot of left out a lot more can add in and you can. And it's just it's more. It's m-. It's more inconsistencies. It's more money grabs and that to me at the end of day. That's what it looks like if feels and looks like a huge money grab, and I I don't know how another way to spend it, man. But at the end of the day, nobody knows I don't know. You don't know. Nobody no way Robson. No, James say Chuck knows and Michael Jackson dead. So that's that's it. Jordan cello. He's still alive. He knows. He's he's he's remaining silent. So there's very few people to actually know win on. And I will never know. All I can do is look at the evidence in the situation and come up with my own opinion on it. But what I have found in this entire thing. Is that kind of what I said at the beginning is I don't have. I don't have any business. Having an opinion about something that I haven't dug into deeply to try to understand the nuances of every single not and cranny of a situation, and that's what I did hear. And what I what I realize is. I can stand firm and say that I believe Michael Jackson to be innocent of these allegations of these particular allegations. Now, he could he could anybody could be a pedophile behind closed doors. It's hard to prove it. I do concede that. But from the evidence given to me, I just don't see it. And I know I get a lot of people say, oh, you're you're pedophile neighbor, blah, blah, blah kiss. My as I am not. I am not. I think if anybody has any kind of interesting that or or they have any pattern of doing that. I think they should be locked up. I think they should. I think I think it's a sickness. I think it's a Zied. And I think I think it's grotesque. It's one of the worst crimes I feel like we can committed humans. I'm not I'm not that. But I did look at this evidence. I looked at case court transcripts and granted there's somebody out there like me who did all the research. I did still thinks that he's guilty. That's fine. That's your opinion. At least I respected a little bit more because you actually looked at it from your view as objective. I can live with that. But for people that haven't looked into it is this. It's just not smart to have an opinion on it. You have no idea the nuances, and you're just going off of hearsay. And what I found another point is that the media is. So hungry for blood that. This click bait world that we live in is is is literally ruining us. And I say that it's super melgen paddick, but it's the truth. If you look at the political narrative in our country right now, it's all about the click bait story is something will happen. And all of a sudden there's hundreds of articles within twenty minutes. How could you possibly know? What happens in twenty minutes of understanding that situation has happened journalism is dead. And it's and it's because entertainment has been in a twine with news. And if you're. If you have any kind of intelligence about you. You'll wait and assess any situation before you jump in react to it. Because the world we live in today is dangerous cesspool of misinformation, and I implore you to do all the research. You can't about a subject before forming an opinion. The deep deep dive, and the media's entirely different topic that we can even dive into that. But. One of the things that I think Michael Jackson fans should understand. I think you should stop parroting bed. News one of the things that Michael Jackson fans pair a lot is Michael Jackson was investigated by the NBA FBI for ten years as partially true. He wasn't investigated by the FBI for ten years, he aided investigations for the Santa Barbara county. Police department for for a long period of time. And they just ate it. They didn't I it's it's a lot different. The FBI was actually opening cases on you. It's it is it's not it's not the same. That's a it's kind of a false truth that a lot of MJ backers parrot out there. And like I said really dig into the things that you feel like, you know, because I it should it should make you feel that much more strong about your convictions. If you look at it on bias and come out the same. So I hope you're on a joy this, man. I did I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about the case. But I really realized that I don't I- handful of topics that have actually dug into this handful and it helped me grow. It helped me grow in it. And I hope I hope you all enjoyed it. So let me on the comments thoughts feelings about this about whatever if you like this form of podcast. I would love to keep doing these podcast. 'cause I enjoyed it. Man. I I love talking to other people. But these deep dives are really fun. I really get to sit in focus on the on the topic. So let me know if you like it, and if you don't like it, it's been it's been it's been fun. I appreciate y'all. So we're we're gonna we're gonna be back next week probably with an interview. But let me know, man. I hope you all enjoyed it. And Jim Carey confer me, bro to all my all my regular listeners. You know, what it is? We're still trying to get Jim Carey on. So if you know him highlighted, man, I appreciate your joining in men, and we'll get you next.